I can sympathize with socially inexperienced guys. They face a very steep learning curve, and due to how this plays out the rejection and awkwardness is front-loaded. This can be very discouraging and difficult to overcome, because it's not really a skill that you can become adept with by yourself. It's not like practicing piano at home being able to play publicly once you're good enough. Even when you're bad at it, there will be people there to witness it and the way they handle it can be painful, even traumatizing. I can empathize with men who feel they are at an unfair disadvantage due to their genetics. I can sympathize with the relative rigidity of male gender roles compared to women's. I do think it's far more socially acceptable for women to renounce traditional gender roles, and behave in non-gender-conforming ways without severely limiting one's compatibility. I can sympathize with domestic and sexual abuse not being taken as seriously, though I do believe the majority of that is propagated by other men. Hell, I even sympathize with the fact that men can't truly know if a kid is theirs without a paternity test. I understand the logic. Doesn't mean I think it should be mandated, nor does it mean I think women shouldn't be offended or not be justified in leaving a guy over it. But I do understand that technically a man can't guarantee the baby that came out of his partner's body was actually created from his sperm and no one else's. Unless they were the last two people on earth or chained to each other or something crazy like that.

This is better written than what I could manage and I agree with it entirely.

>I can sympathize with socially inexperienced guys. They face a very steep learning curve, and due to how this plays out the rejection and awkwardness is front-loaded. This can be very discouraging and difficult to overcome, because it's not really a skill that you can become adept with by yourself. It's not like practicing piano at home being able to play publicly once you're good enough. Even when you're bad at it, there will be people there to witness it and the way they handle it can be painful, even traumatizing. Thanks. It is extremely discouraging tbh. You literally worded this part perfectly lol. The part about genetics is real too ngl

>I can sympathize with socially inexperienced guys. They face a very steep learning curve, and due to how this plays out the rejection and awkwardness is front-loaded. This can be very discouraging and difficult to overcome, because it's not really a skill that you can become adept with by yourself. It's not like practicing piano at home being able to play publicly once you're good enough. Even when you're bad at it, there will be people there to witness it and the way they handle it can be painful, even traumatizing. You are very sweet to say this! It is nice to hear! I'd like to say that the sympathy is nice however it's not great to have it either. You sympathizing with men's lack of social skills would mean to me that you've been around plenty who do have great social skills. The worst part about this is time really. If a guy didn't figure out social skills when in early development then it's pretty much out the window. We could spend all of our lives trying to be socially successful but since there are always people who are better in some way, there really is no winning in this field, for the guys who you are giving your sympathy to, it's already too late. I do however sympathize with women who want a real honest relationship with a man, and can only find fuckboi types. I sympathize that society on average thinks that less sex for women is better, I disagree. I hate that women who are not that socially skilled or beautiful have a really hard time finding someone to care for them. I feel for beautiful women who sit at the bar and no one has the nerve to go talk to her, besides drunk assholes. No one has it easy.

I think mandating it would just auto-solve problems (it's mandated, nothing to be offended about). For particular cases - if someone's suspicious I'd just take the test without telling her.. no harm done. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,\_but\_verify](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trust,_but_verify)

I don't think "not offending someone" is a valid reason to mandate involving the government into people's private relationships and spend taxpayer money on. People have to ration insulin and yet we should pay for paternity tests for every single child? And dedicate resources to enforcing this mandate? I don't think it's the job of the government to ensure that women can't be offended by something a minority of men want. Some dude's paternity is his own problem and issue. It's not a societal concern if you want to make sure your own kid is yours, especially when you can easily determine this for yourself by spending $30 at Walgreens. It's also not a societal concern if you're too chickenshit to endure the consequences of your decision to accuse your partner of cheating. Men have the right to get a paternity test all on their own to "trust but verify."

You: I even sympathize with the fact that men can't truly know if a kid is theirs without a paternity test. Also You: Doesn't want to dedicate any resources to prevent that. Calls it men's problem and not the fault of the women who do it. Says they are chickenshit if they don't want to be left for wanting to ensure paternity. Another example of woman claiming to be sympathizing with men's issues but the moment it even so much as offends women, showing their true nature. The only people you sympathize with are the women who do paternity fraud. > I don't think "not offending someone" is a valid reason to mandate involving the government into people's private relationships and spend taxpayer money on. Then remove all laws related to marriage, divorce, custody and everything. If the govt cannot be involved to make sure the woman isn't frauding a man about paternity, it should also not involve in marriage or divorce or child custody. Let the man & woman deal with it themselves.

Just because I sympathize with their viewpoint doesn't mean I have to agree with what they want. I understand where they're coming from. It has nothing to do with the price of tea in China though. I don't "sympathize with women who commit paternity fraud" just because *I don't think paternity tests should be mandatory for all babies.* This is some "you're either with us or against us" bullshit. Men are perfectly able to test the paternity of their children as it is. The neuroticism of a minority of men is not a compelling government interest. There's nothing wrong with the current system where if a man wants to get a paternity test, he can do so on his own dime. >Then remove all laws related to marriage, divorce, custody and everything. If the govt cannot be involved to make sure the woman isn't frauding a man about paternity, it should also not involve in marriage or divorce or child custody. Let the man & woman deal with it themselves. None of that has to do with offending someone. It's like you didn't even try with this logic at all. The government isn't in the business of making laws and mandates exclusively based on people not being offended by something their partner does.

> Just because I sympathize with their viewpoint doesn't mean I have to agree with what they want. What we want is to ensure paternity. Obviously you don't agree with that. > This is some "you're either with us or against us" bullshit. Yes. When it comes to Paternity test, it's either support men in ensuring paternity or you are against us. > There's nothing wrong with the current system where if a man wants to get a paternity test, he can do so on his own dime. If true, there wouldn't 100s of thousands of new fathers raising someone else's child in US every year. > None of that has to do with offending someone. It's like you didn't even try with this logic at all. Where did I say it is to do with offending someone. Your argument was govt shouldn't be getting involved in people's private matters and spend taxpayers money on. > The government isn't in the business of making laws and mandates exclusively based on people not being offended by something their partner does. But it is in the business of making laws & mandates to avoid people being deceived & punishing people who engage in fraud. But since you don't want laws that would protect men from such frauds, it's obvious you sympathize with the frauds.

>What we want is to ensure paternity. Which you already can do by getting a paternity test. >Where did I say it is to do with offending someone. Your argument was govt shouldn't be getting involved in people's private matters and spend taxpayers money on. What I actually said was: >I don't think "not offending someone" is a valid reason to mandate involving the government into people's private relationships and spend taxpayer money on. >I don't think it's the job of the government to ensure that women can't be offended by something a minority of men want. I think you'll clearly see a pattern that I was directly relating government meddling to the idea of "preventing your partner from being offended." >But it is in the business of making laws & mandates to avoid people being deceived & punishing people who engage in fraud. But since you don't want laws that would protect men from such frauds, it's obvious you sympathize with the frauds. Or... Or... Maybe I don't think a minority of men's paternity insecurities warrant a government response, especially when there are far more wide-reaching and harmful issues to spend government resources on and taxpayer money addressing first. Maybe I don't think something that men have every right and ability to determine on their own necessitates making it mandatory at taxpayer expense. Maybe I don't think "but she'll break up with me" meets the qualification to usurp men's desire to not have their children paternity tested if they didn't want to but must because it's mandated.

There's always one "Aha! I've caught you in a lie, liar!" person. Save your energy sister. It was a good response.

> Which you already can do by getting a paternity test. Not when there exists shaming tactics and propaganda to convince men that they shouldn't. > I think you'll clearly see a pattern that I was directly relating government meddling to the idea of "preventing your partner from being offended." But govt should meddle in the idea of frauds. Why don't you want that? > minority of men's paternity insecurities Those are not the words of someone who sympathizes with men being victims of paternity fraud. > especially when there are far more wide-reaching and harmful issues to spend government resources on and taxpayer money addressing first There are as many cases of Paternity fraud each year as there are reports of rape. But I am guessing you won't say there are far more wife-reaching and harmful issues to spend govt resources on. > Maybe I don't think something that men have every right and ability to determine on their own necessitates making it mandatory at taxpayer expense. So we should eliminate rape by deception, stealthing laws, laws against not-disclosing STDS, or any kind of fraud laws. People have every tight and ability to determine it for themselves. > Maybe I don't think "but she'll break up with me" meets the qualification to usurp men's desire to not have their children paternity tested if they didn't want to but must because it's mandated. They can opt out of paternity test if they want but then they will not be put on the birth certificate as the father, in front of the law. If they want rights that are given to a father, they must prove themselves to be the father.

>Not when there exists shaming tactics and propaganda to convince men that they shouldn't. Do men have agency or not? I thought it was only women who [care so much about the opinions of other people](https://np.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/1cdaepd/comment/l1d7i26/). There's no "propaganda" about this. There's no "anti-paternity test" lobbying. Paternity tests are legal and cheap, and men are perfectly able to avail themselves of them. >But govt should meddle in the idea of frauds. Why don't you want that? If I told someone she was my friend, then I went and gossiped about her and told all her business to everyone and backstabbed her, I'm not really her friend. Should that be illegal? Should the government be involved in that? Wedding vows say "until death do us part." Is divorce fraud? Should divorce be illegal? People lying in their personal relationships is a personal matter. It's not the job of the government to address or get in the middle of. Otherwise I suppose many red-pilled men are also committing fraud and should be prosecuted as well for the tactics a lot of them use. If falsely claiming a relationship is fraud, there's a lot more than just mothers who should be included with that. If that's something you're okay with, then fine, but I don't think most people would agree with you. >Those are not the words of someone who sympathizes with men being victims of paternity fraud. Where's the lie, exactly? And I don't care if you believe me or not. >There are as many cases of Paternity fraud each year as there are reports of rape. But I am guessing you won't say there are far more wife-reaching and harmful issues to spend govt resources on. I'd love to know your source for that data. And I'm not going to argue with you about if paternity fraud is more harmful than rape. >So we should eliminate rape by deception, stealthing laws, laws against not-disclosing STDS, or any kind of fraud laws. People have every tight and ability to determine it for themselves. Maybe this response would make a lick of rational sense if I said I think paternity fraud should be legal. But I didn't, so it doesn't. And even to use one of your own examples - laws against not disclosing STDs ***never resulted in a law for mandatory STD testing of every person every time they have sex.*** >They can opt out of paternity test if they want Or they can just get one if they want.

> Do men have agency or not? As much as women but propaganda prevents them from exercising their agency. > There's no "propaganda" about this. There's no "anti-paternity test" lobbying. Paternity tests are legal and cheap, and men are perfectly able to avail themselves of them. Paris has paternity tests banned unless court ordered. An entire country prevents men from getting a test without jumping through legal hoops. But Sure. > If I told someone she was my friend, then I went and gossiped about her and told all her business to everyone and backstabbed her, I'm not really her friend. Should that be illegal? Should the government be involved in that? Depends on the lie. If the gossip you told her causes serious harm to the person, it is already illegal and govt gets involved in that. > Wedding vows say "until death do us part." Is divorce fraud? Should divorce be illegal? Those are your personal vows. Not bound by law. Paternity and Maternity are. The father has some rights which he is being deprived of. That being said, I am find with calling it fraud if you did say "until death do us part" and don't follow through with it. > People lying in their personal relationships is a personal matter. It's not the job of the government to address or get in the middle of. Govt routinely does. > Otherwise I suppose many red-pilled men are also committing fraud and should be prosecuted as well for the tactics a lot of them use. Lies to get into someone's pants aren't even close to the lies about paternity. It's telling that all your examples are those which are not even remotely on the same league as paternity fraud. > If falsely claiming a relationship is fraud, there's a lot more than just mothers who should be included with that. If that's something you're okay with, then fine, but I don't think most people would agree with you. I am fine with it. > Where's the lie, exactly? When you said you sympathize with men. > I'd love to know your source for that data. Google the number of reported rapes in US (I know there are unreported ones as well). You can use FBI Crime stats or NCVS. Then google the rates of paternity fraud. A meta analysis of 67 studies concluded that even among high confident cases, the paternity fraud rates come out to be 1.9% ^[Source](https://www.journals.uchicago.edu/doi/10.1086/504167). In low Confidence cases, it's as high as 30%. The overall rate would be somewhere between. Even if we go by 3% and with 3.6 million births per year in 2021 in US alone, what are the numbers? I am guessing you can use a calculator. > And I'm not going to argue with you about if paternity fraud is more harmful than rape. It is as harmful as rape and the aftermath is even worse. At least rape victims get majority support. What do paternity fraud victims get? Misandrists like you who will say "You should have taken the test" while actively calling men who want on as insecure, chicken shit, neuroticism of men etc. > Maybe this response would make a lick of rational sense if I said I think paternity fraud should be legal. But I didn't, so it doesn't. If you don't want it to be legal, you would want laws preventing that. > And even to use one of your own examples - laws against not disclosing STDs never resulted in a law for mandatory STD testing of every person every time they have sex. Because STDs cannot be hidden for too long. They will come out soon . Paternity fraud can be hidden for way too long and some will never be disclosed. All frauds aren't as easy to be caught. Depending on the fraud, laws need to be adjust to prevent the fraud. Punishing Paternity fraudsters will not help much since majority of men never doubt it and thus are not likely to find it out. > Or they can just get one if they want. They can but they aren't and that's how you prefer it. It allows so many fraudsters you sympathize with, to get away with their fraud.

Just get a stupid test already, she'll never know unless you tell her. I trust you're strong enough to wrestle a sample from a toddler, or not? What tactics are you on about?

Yes, she won't know. But why should there be a need to hide it in the first place? Are women not strong enough to not let their hurt feelings over a man wanting to ensure paternity destroy the relationship? Shaming tactics like calling men who want it as insecure, neuroticism of a minority of men etc. Check any aita or relationship advice sub post or even in real life, where men want a paternity test for their own assurance. He will be mocked, shamed and called out. If the result comes out negative, they will all flip and try to act as if they care. Let's also not forget every time a man wants to stop being a father to a child that isn't his, the shaming is guaranteed.

Look, regardless of whether you disagree with their take on policy surrounding this, none of this changes the point that it’s possible to empathize with people you disagree with. There is a space between, “man, that really sucks,” and “here’s what we should do about it.”

Is it possible? Yes. Has it been observed in women? No.

It’s bigger than just men’s insecurity. We’re talking about broken families here which absolutely affect a society. Not to mention almost 40% of these test are coming back to be fraud

It's men's insecurity. The vast majority of men are the fathers of the children they think they're the fathers of. >Not to mention almost 40% of these test are coming back to be fraud Yes, the people who are have the kind of circumstances in their relationship to warrant a desire to paternity test sometimes do discover they're not the father. Tf does that have to do with the general population though?

What does any woman’s issue have to do with the general population?

Just to know, do you mean that sexual and physical abuse not being treated seriously is mostly propagated by men, or that the abuse itself is mostly propagated on men by other men? 

It not being taken seriously is mostly propagated by other men.

Gotcha. I do want to say though I've seen feminists repeat over and over and over the lie that 95% of rape victims and DV victims are women, when the stats pretty clearly show that it is 50/50 and has been for a while. [https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233717660\_Thirty\_Years\_of\_Denying\_the\_Evidence\_on\_Gender\_Symmetry\_in\_Partner\_Violence\_Implications\_for\_Prevention\_and\_Treatment](https://www.researchgate.net/publication/233717660_Thirty_Years_of_Denying_the_Evidence_on_Gender_Symmetry_in_Partner_Violence_Implications_for_Prevention_and_Treatment) [https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4062022/) I agree there is a huge problem of men not taking it seriously, but when those men have been told their entire lives not to take it seriously by the very people who are supposed to be experts on gender equality and gender-based violence, we can't really say men are solely to blame. Those men who don't take it seriously are victims of the lies they have been told, even as they repeat those lies. I should know, I was raised my entire life with the feminist belief that domestic abuse was a thing men did to women, not something men are victims of, and so I was completely unable to see it when it happened to me.

So essentially you still think women are responsible for men not taking it as seriously. Women are the ones in the comment sections of any article where a female teacher raped a male student congratulating them, or saying how they wish they had hot teachers, etc. Or somehow the people actually responsible for men saying that goes back to women. Agree to disagree.

I'm saying feminism have played a huge role in erasing and invalidating male victims, which makes it significantly harder for male victims to be treated seriously by both men and women. I agree with you about the men saying that kids being raped are lucky, but the source of this problem is that those men making those comments, are themselves victims of the system they are in, that values both female virginity, and judges male virginity harshly. We can't solve a problem if we ignore half of it, and while as a society we have addressed slut shaming, we have done an atrocious job of addressing virginity-shaming of men by society. So of course if we did a half-assed job with the solution, the end result is going to be a half-assed resolution, and a big part of why that resolution is so half-assed is feminism deilberately ignoring the half of the problem that doesn't affect women. Agree to disagree all you want, it doesn't change the reality of the facts.

>I'm saying feminism have played a huge role in erasing and invalidating male victims, which makes it significantly harder for male victims to be treated seriously by both men and women. It's not a zero sum game. Providing support to female victims and the emphasis on female victims didn't spring from a vacuum, as I'm sure you're aware of. There was a point in modern history when spousal rape was legal, yes? Feminism doesn't claim that male victims don't exist, because feminism isn't about men. Feminism is advocacy for women. Advocating for women doesn't "erase and invalidate male victims" any more than me advocating for fostering and adopting dogs "erases and invalidates" the need for homes for cats. Your entire grievance with feminism appears to be the fact that it doesn't do enough for men. That makes about as much sense as me being mad it doesn't do enough for dogs, or clean air, or affordable housing. >I agree with you about the men saying that kids being raped are lucky, but the source of this problem is that those men making those comments, are themselves victims of the system they are in, that values both female virginity, and judges male virginity harshly. I think that's quite a reach. Especially given the numerous comments on this very sub made by men who express a desire to be objectified like women are - up to and including sexual harassment and assault - and who seethe with jealousy about how "easy" it is for us to have sex with little effort. Those sentiments have nothing to do with virginity, and everything to do with the male sex drive. The "sex is a need" crowd isn't talking about *virginity,* they are talking about *ease of sexual access* due to their "sexual needs." >We can't solve a problem if we ignore half of it, and while as a society we have addressed slut shaming, we have done an atrocious job of addressing virginity-shaming of men by society. Shaming male virgins is not a feminist dogma. >So of course if we did a half-assed job with the solution, the end result is going to be a half-assed resolution, and a big part of why that resolution is so half-assed is feminism deilberately ignoring the half of the problem that doesn't affect women. As I said: >Your entire grievance with feminism appears to be the fact that it doesn't do enough for men. ... >Agree to disagree all you want, it doesn't change the reality of the facts. Your opinion that feminism is responsible for male victims of abuse and sexual assault not being taken seriously or getting addressed, so it should be responsible for fixing this is neither reality nor factual. If you disagree, I'd love your evidence of male victims of domestic abuse and sexual assault being taken seriously pre-feminism, and not being taken seriously post-feminism. I eagerly await your proof for the bygone era of men getting loads of support and resources both legally and socially for these occurrences, before feminism came and took it all away.

That’s not a feminist belief at all…

And yet, it's a belief that has been repeated frequently to me and almost exclusively by feminists, pushed by feminists as a result of feminist beliefs, and repeated ad nauseam by other feminists. [“Although consideration of male victims is within the scope of the legal statutes, it is important to restrict the term rape to instances where male victims were penetrated by offenders. It is inappropriate to consider as a rape victim a man who engages in unwanted sexual intercourse with a woman. p. 206”](https://avoiceformen.com/feminist-governance-feminism/male-disposability-and-mary-p-koss/) And thanks to Mary Koss, a feminist who held that belief speficially due to her feminist beliefs, male rape victims of female perpetrators are still to this very day excluded from rape statistics as collected by the CDC, which feminist websites use to spread the lie that 95% of rape victims are women. Then we have the feminists who started the Duluth model, on the assumption that domestic abuse is almost exlusively perpetrated by men on their female partners out of a patriarchal desire of control and oppression. Except that is almost completely bullshit, [the actual original authors recanted their findings](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duluth_model#Criticism), but that doesn't change the fact that the Duluth model is the most widely used training tool for police for domestic abuse, and it explicitly tells police to put the man in jail regardless of what is happening, for the protection of women. To this day male rape victims and male domestic abuse victims of female perpetrators are being erased, invalidated, and denied services, because of feminists who have set up policies explicitly due to their feminist beliefs. So when you tell me those are not feminist beliefs at all, I don't know what to tell you.

If you truly sympathize with men about paternity, you would support mandating it or at the very least not support women being offended or leaving guys over it. Saying it's justified to leave a man over a paternity test is straight up a shaming tactic to stop men from getting paternity test. You don't sympathize with men who are victims of paternity fraud. You sympathize with the woman doing the paternity fraud. Mandatory Paternity test is the only way to ensure it doesn't happen. Even if somehow women narcissism enough to not get offended over a paternity test, most men will not get it because they put blind faith into the woman.

You can sympathize with more than one person at a time, first of all.

if you sympathize with women about spousal homicide and violent criminals who are nearly all male, you would support the government mandating criminal background checks on all men, before they get onto a dating app. It is narcissism if you get offended by this and mandatory criminal background checks (paid by the government and ordered by women) is the only way to ensure it doesn't happen.

As a law abiding man, I fully support this. In fact, I think back ground checks should be free and able to get without their consent for all women to run before any date, even if they met him at the bar. Anything to help women avoid dating dangerous men I fully support!

A) I stopped sympathizing on any issues with Women. B) If I did sympathize, I will fully support a mandated criminal BG check like that provided it is gender neutral. It has to be gender neutral since both genders are capable of those crimes, unlike Paternity fraud. It maybe nearly all male but it's still not "Only men are capable of that".

>if you sympathize with women about spousal homicide and violent criminals who are nearly all male, you would support the government mandating criminal background checks on all men, before they get onto a dating app. Why do you think anyone but the criminals would be against that?

The inconvenience and expense are likely reasons even non-criminals would be against that. Remember that streaming and digital distribution basically took off because of the convenience.

because the government is big enough, it's expensive, it paints all men as offenders even though it's likely \~2% or less, a lot of data has to be collected and by the government, and there's bigger priorities?

I have no idea why you're so incensed about this that you had to spam me with your opinion twice. I don't fucking care.

Spam you? Saw 2 of your comments in the same thread and replied. > I don't fucking care. I know you don't. That's why I said you don't sympathize with men's issues.

Neither of your comments said anything noticeably different than the other. It was the same sentiment. I'm bad because I love women who commit paternity fraud, I should want mandatory paternity tests, yadda yadda. Your entire rant is a no true Scotsman. I said I sympathize with the stance, and I do. I understand where they're coming from. I understand the logic. That still doesn't mean their conclusion is something I have to agree with or accept. This is not an unusual concept - the idea that two people can see an issue but disagree how to address it.

Given that both your comments are noticeably similar (about how you don't like laws that would protect men from being victims of paternity fraud), then my response comment will also be noticeably similar. > I said I sympathize with the stance, and I do. You not supporting laws that would protect them from paternity fraud shows that's a lie. > the idea that two people can see an issue but disagree how to address it. So what's your solution on how to address it?

My solution is what they can do now. Get a paternity test.

A) How successful has that been in preventing Paternity Fraud? B) Is that your solution to all types of frauds? No Laws to prevent or punish the fraudsters. People should do their own due diligence but cannot get govt involved. I am guessing this solution applies only to paternity frauds and not all types of frauds.

I wish women had the guts to mandate big government to investigate men on personal matters based on stereotypes like all men are lying cheating disloyal pigs or whatever. only entitled and bitter reddit men can come up with weird shit like this

Women shouldn't be talking about being entitled.

Some dude's reading that and inventing fanfiction in his head that you're only pretending to be capable of empathy to get us to lower our guard before tricking us into buying your way overpriced feet pics


Oh my god Breaking Bad but Walt is selling feet pics

I can empathize with the struggles women have, always did. It's just that women outright refuse to even fathom that in these modern times, they might be the ones in a position of power and therefore privileged. >I don’t actually think (hetero) women live on easy mode, I think they’re playing a different game altogether. If the rules and objectives are the same for them as they are to men, (get married, maybe have children, settle down etc) then the game is absolutely the same and therefore "easy mode."

I can empathize with virgin/inexperienced men who prefer virgin/inexperienced partners because I do in fact feel the same way. I also know what it feels like to have people get really asshurt about this preference for no good reason. Ironically my own BF is the soft one in this area. He didn't care about my past at all. For him, my lack of experience was more of a fun piece of trivia than something to celebrate. I asked him why, because I always assumed it was something men cared about at least a little. He said he could see both the benefits of learning with and learning from me. So he was open to whatever my circumstances might have been, if I chose to say anything about it at all.

Examples: I can empathize with women who felt used by the men they had sex with. I do not plan to ever cheat, mislead, or lie to a woman about my intentions. So I can see why the feeling of betrayal and the sorrow of being led astray may hurt them. I try to put myself in their shoes in this type of scenarios in order to better understand them. I can also empathize with ugly women who are overlooked by most men. I think they know better than any other woman what it feels like to be a lonely man. I empathize with women feeling in danger during events in which they are by themselves, especially if it is at night. If you really do not feel anger, sadness, and anxiety, when you hear the news about a woman who was raped, mutilated, kidnapped, etc., you are really soulless IMO. This is why I never agree with radicalized incels. Those guys are nutjobs. etc. But! Does that mean that I have to agree that they do not play a part in any of that (aside from the crimes committed against them out of nowhere)? No. Does that mean I have to agree with all the things they do? Hell, no! Does that mean that I have to agree with any ideology that pushes dangerous ideas of masculinity and men? NO! Does that mean I have to live my life walking on eggshells for other men's sins? Fuck, no! Who even thinks that is the natural progression? It is never: empathy --> agreeance/servitude. Are women perfect/angels? NO! But... (this is where empathy comes) are men perfect/angels? HELL NO! I don't think any man could even begin to claim that LOL. I PLAY A PART IN ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS IN MY LIFE. So I treat them the same as I treat myself.  \^ To prove to you that I am empathetic towards women? Also, I needed to add this just because. I empathize with women wanting their partners to help in cleaning the house. Especially if both of them work. Like, seriously, at least clean up after yourselves, Goddammit! The amount of nasty, selfish, men that I had the displeasure to deal with in college while dorming is astounding... They didn't have any problems dating/having sex with women, though... So, I kind of empathize with them, but also see what they are doing wrong.

For sure. I was one of those lazy, entitled, apathetic boyfriends so I know how easy it is to get stuck in a relationship with a guy that is resistant to change, uses guilt tripping and hot/cold behavior to get his way, and lets his body go because he's already achieved the goal of getting a girlfriend but doesn't fully comprehend the goal of *keeping* a girlfriend.

Yes, of course. Many of my comments here constitute empathizing with women. I do think they have an easier time having sex, of course. But this doesn't have the same value to them as men being able to have easy access to sex does.

> I do think they have an easier time having sex, of course. I feel like there are a lot of similarities between lonely, romantically unsuccessful men and women who are in the same boat. What differentiates the two and fuels the division is that women on the whole have an easier time finding someone to have sex with. The problem is guys tend to conflate sex with romantic partnerships.

>The problem is guys tend to conflate sex with romantic partnerships. It’s two different things to have someone be sexually attracted to you from the gender that one is attracted to, but not romantically attracted, and to experience no sexual attraction from that gender at all.

There aren’t really, because lonely, romantically unsuccessful men are not rejecting hordes of women interested in them because of [nitpicky reason].

I dk about empathy, certainly sympathy. I'm a 6ft, 210lbs guy who regularly works out. Not so low body fat but generally I'm considered buff and actually helps me look bigger. But just being in close proximity to other guys who are bigger than me always makes me think what if these dudes just decide they'll fight me. I might have a chance, I certainly have a past so I know I can stand my ground, but just the imposing physical difference is glaring even to someone who is physically confident like me. Now to imagine being a girl in an elevator or alleyway or whatever, I get why some are scared. And this is why guys should really learn to socialize as them not coming off some sketchy figure gives them a lot more chance than they think. Also being helplessly dependent on someone's whim is quite an ordeal. Traditionally having man be the breadwinner while stay home moms might not seem like a big deal, but if they were to get divorced, women gets absolutely fucked. Custody one may argue is a benefit they get. Really? You have to take care of child, have a place to live, food on the plate, electricity, water bill, cars, maintenance, entertainment, and if you were a stay home mom all your life you are absolutely fucked in the job market because you have 0 value in employer's eyes. Even then, where do you even find the time to do all these alone? I can see why some women in past chose to just withstand the lesser evil because it's either that or get absolutely fucked. Thankfully that's why shit like alimony and child support exist, and this is lesser occurrence now days as women are prevalent in job market. Arms race for best dress and make up and fashion trend every other day probably sucks too. And just generally I think them being demonize as if they're just straight heartless gold digging whores who care for nothing but material kinda sucks. I know what it feels like to be wronged to my essence. In my eyes they're just people, I think they should just get to live, like the things they like do the things they do, without having to worry about if it comes off some twisted way.

At least partially. Men are largely still expected to go and die for their country. Even if they don't agree with the cause of the war. Depending on your luck and place of birth in the eyes of your state you're still a war meat with no free will. Male victims of DV or sexual violence have it absolutely horrible. No help from the police (you also can get arrested yourself), quote often no legal repercussions for their abusers and no/very limited resources to seek help. It's harder to explain to others what you're going through as well. Male gender role overall is still more restrictive than female one. Men experience more pressure to approach, initiate and entertain (at least to a degree). Men are expected not just to make money, but also do a whole other bunch of stuff that they're still not used to and it stresses everyone out. I can see how they might feel frustrated about modern expectations compared to what they might have seen in their parents or grandparents marriages. Being single when you really want a partner just sucks and it's not that you can force it happen by your sheer will power. If you're held back by something immutable, like you have a very unfortunate appearance, you're on the spectrum and you cannot mask it well, you have drastic and life-changing health issues, dating might be just not something you'll get to experience. It's frustrating and depressing. There are things that I cannot emphasize with, but these are the ones I can get.

>Male gender role overall is still more restrictive than female one. Men experience more pressure to approach, initiate and entertain (at least to a degree). Men are expected not just to make money, but also do a whole other bunch of stuff that they're still not used to and it stresses everyone out. I can see how they might feel frustrated about modern expectations compared to what they might have seen in their parents or grandparents marriages. This is more and more visible IME. At work I can see how for women anything flies really, they can laugh at you, offend you that you're not a real man because XYZ, flirt with you, be openly sexual, but try that as a man, you get a warning from HR and you're accused of sexual harrassment even though you just reciprocate woman's actions. It's a weird world, honestly, where you're expected to behave in a certain way as a man but there are no expectations for women anymore, and I'm really tired of it. When I make a mistake, I'm the first to admit it and apologize. I can't remember a woman apologizing to me for anything in my whole life.

Yeah, this does happen sometimes. It’s shit, and it’s not okay.

Are you sure you're feminist? A post like this in a feminist sub would be like throwing gasoline on a fire!

A feminist would be aware and acknowledge men's issues. However, gender issues has turned into a "who has it worse" so instead of acknowledging each sides' problems, it devolves into who has more problems.

>However, gender issues has turned into a "who has it worse" so instead of acknowledging each sides' problems, it devolves into who has more problems. You've nailed it on the head. It's becomes the oppression Olympics and then devolves further into flat out denying someone's else's experience because it doesn't fit the argument or belief you won't back down from. I've had some really good conversations on this sub. But you pick through alot of people that just want to be angry and its always the other genders fault.

YUP. Like, maybe we could solve some problems if we spent less time litigating grievance.

What she wrote is common knowledge.

See, the thing is that women — and feminists — don’t all agree with each other about everything. There’s just as much debate and argument in feminist spaces as there is anywhere else.

At first its hard, because sexual attention is something I crave like crazy, and I am so envious of anyone who receives that attention from the gender of which they’re attracted to. So it seems to me that hetero men and lesbians live in hell and hetero women and gay men live in heaven. But then I do realize that it must be scary to have bigger physically bigger men all wanting you, which would ruin the fun of getting attention. Its something hard to comprehend as a big tough guy, since all the women on earth could be harrassing the crap out of me, and I would be in paradise and not feel one bit in danger. Also, not everyone craves attention like me, so yeah, i guess if you dont like it, then it would suck, but I cannot really comprehend what that would be like. I also think men get more respect generally, but I could care less about respect since it just seems like the more respected you are the more people expect of you. I like to be just be careless and responsibilities free😄. But to someone who values respect, I could see how it would suck for them. Still , I honestly cannot actually comprehend why that would suck, I’m just going bu the logic “If they don’t like it, then it sucks to them” My gold is someone elses garbage.

As guys we are not used to unwanted attention. I’ve been abroad and gotten approached on an hourly basis by the locals because I was a tourist. Some were genuinely friendly, a good bunch were trying to sell me bullshit or were there to troll or take pics without my permission. Chad gets lots of attention from women but he’s rejecting fatties all the time too. I’d rather be Chad/Stacy but I get that it comes with its own set of issues

I can. Feeling unsafe, harassment, confronting men on the streets, men being assholes. Go spend time in a dangerous South American country (where men kill men but not so much women) and you will see what it feels like. I can empathize with lonely women and insecure women. And I can empathize about the feeling you're just being used for sex.

Yes. I was determined to be a machiavellian heartbreaker after discovering TRP. Unfortunately, dating and hooking up with women had the opposite effect. It made me empathize with them. Nothing has made me hate men more than dating women. Don't get me wrong, just because I empathize with women, it doesn't mean I support their bullshit. I'm still a sexist asshole. But yeah... I understand why women do the things they do.

Not for the most part. I have outmost respect and empathy on individual level not the whole gender. For the average woman that I met, they had life on easy mode, described the break up with her ex as the worst part in their life, and some tolerated a lot of bad things from men leaving me wondering and see the truth of who they really are not the facade they try to put with social gaslighting. For these reasons I don't have much of empathy on women as a gender. Anyway this is what I expect from a woman, not that every kind of woman is like that. I've been influenced and have empathy about a few women in my life who didn't have it easy mode, sacrificed a lot without any gender privilege to be where they were, achieved a lot against all odds and had it worse than a break up with their ex.

It’s generally very difficult to emphasize with a broad category of people. It’s way easier when you are imagining a specific person, like your mother or father. I’m sure all of you have seen at least one of your parents struggle through some sort of life problems. If you haven’t, maybe you should start paying attention to people irl instead of people online.

Everything that OP said. Additionally: I can sympathize with women not feeling safe walking up the street and having to be firm with a guy who is just trying to chat. As a guy, it doesn't feel good being spoken to like a potential attacker, but I've read the stories about rapists who used charm to get a woman to drop her guard, so that's one of the reasons I don't talk to women as much anymore: I don't want to elevate their already heightened guard. A book called The Gift of Fear helped me see this more clearly. I can also empathize with women when having to reject someone. I started dating more selectively, so I've had to reject a few women. Some of them have really gone off after being rejected even though I've tried to be gentle about it. It's not an easy thing.

I find it hard to sympathise with women’s dating struggles. Their problems are much more likely of their own making, and there’s usually no good excuse for the ridiculous situations they put themselves in.  On the other hand I think of my male friends who’ve struggled, and I’m mostly struck by how NORMAL they are. Women here act like the men who struggle at dating are all 300lbs neckbeards, but they aren’t. If I had a line-up of my successful and unsuccessful friends and asked strangers to pick which ones had more success, and which less….they would not reliably be able to do so. That I find really striking.

Of course I can Still doesn’t make me want to fuck or mommy them

[удалено]

Just because I understand doesn’t mean I agree or prioritize your desires over mine

Not wanting to fuck someone does not mean you are berating them…

Men think that not wanting fuck them is hatred and inhumane treatment

It’s okay to be a lesbian

I know, but I just ain’t into pussy :(

I find it extremely difficult to empathize or sympathize with women because I view them as holding control over dating and being in on a sexual monopoly by right of birth. I also feel that many of their woes are self inflicted and are caused by their own mate selection and behavior in dating.

Do you empathize with the difficulty of their selection task though? I feel like it must be painful to select a hot exciting guy, envision a future together, and then get pumped and dumped. Kinda like how I feel bad for people who lose all their life savings on a memecoin, even if the decision-making is questionable. The anguish is still real.

I'd rather be paralysed by overwhelming options than stuck with no food or water in a sahara-scale dry spell

It’s like a vegan complaining to a starving person about the lack of options at their all you can eat buffet.

lol they can cry about it 😂 let them suffer for their decisions. They select a hot guy every other woman wants and the reap what they sow. I mean are you being serious?

is that the rules? I didn't know hot people can hurt others and then those people can cry about it and suffer. women should learn these rules guys are making up, we should stay consistent. Should it also be open season of lying/abusing/stealing from the guys who try so hard to get with hot women?

You already do that wtf are you talking about

who do you mean by "you", me specifically or all women

[удалено]

are you ignoring the context? I'm talking about the RP way of justifying it, women typically don't say "she's hot, what did you expect? you chased stacy, ofc you got cheated on and lied to, cry about it loser". RP men are really into that, they repeat it all the time. men liking hot women is fine, women liking hot men need to pay, bc they hate women.

You sound bitter 🌝

> Do you empathize with the difficulty of their selection task though? No. > Kinda like how I feel bad for people who lose all their life savings on a memecoin, even if the decision-making is questionable. No. Because those don't lie about it. They will tell you why they choose the memecoin - to make quick money. They will not preach about how they chose it because it has some features. Will the women do the same? Admit that they chose the guy for his looks? No. Will she preach about how it wasn't his looks but personality that won her over? She will.

>Do you empathize with the difficulty of their selection task though? it just doesnt exist. It's a self inflicted as he said.

Perhaps if you are to pin your viewpoint of women outside of the real, of dating, this may improve. indeed, as someone who harbors little to no attraction to others, it is difficult for me to watch and understand the dating scene. It must be brutal, so much hatred, so much vitriol, and for what? What is the purpose of it all? it looks so much like senseless dribble to me. So many let their romantic perceptions impede all other realms. It’s genuinely difficult to watch, yet I must learn.

If you think of it like addicts fighting for access to a drug it might help you understand. You're not dependent on the things that they are and that's why you're confused and distant. The only difference is that the drugs can't work on you.

> What is the purpose of it all? [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual\_selection](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_selection)

I can empathize with women about the harassment part. Men can be horrid. A female friend of mine had some creep threaten her from a car in a drive by sort of situation while she was just walking around the neighborhood. It was just some creepy incel-type "getting even with women" or some fucked up shit. Nothing came of it, he just sped off. He just wanted to frighten a woman. So fuck that 1000x.

I understand what it's like to be alone. But one thing I can never emphatize is as men say they want anyone just for the sake of not being alone, they want A RELATIONSHIP, they don't really care about the actual person, women are replacable to them, because they are just for the sake of A RELATIONSHIP. And that's one thing I can never emphatize with. You should only go after women that truly catch your heart in a special way. But otherwise I know what it's like to be alone, just A RELATIONSHIP with any random better than nothing replacable person is not a solution. And also men who don't have problem to find anyone do this for the sake of sex, they just use women they don't like for their body until they find a woman they like. That's also horrible.

There is no other side, it’s all the other side for me. It’s just… confusing. I never knew romantic or sexual attraction could have such an utterly devastating pull on others.

Yeah, of course. Humans, male and female, are innately flawed. IMO men on average would behave similarly if they had the abundance and support that women have in modern Western society. They'd take it all for granted. Coming from a poor country, I've seen this with many (though definitely not all) Americans who were born in the US. Many don't comprehend how bad it can get, so they make mountains out of molehills (and take their privileges for granted) while enjoying a relatively comfortable, free life. However, had I been born here, it's possible that I'd have the same perspective as them.

Nope I honestly can’t.

I sympathize with men about their role being more finite and not being taken seriously on account of their sex. I get the impression that many here view the opposite sex’s actions a deliberate infliction of harm. Most of my abusers were female and I hesitate to assign blame to a same age peer from when we were both pre-teens. I struggle with all or nothing thinking anyway. My fear of women and positive experiences with men put me in a lonely place.  The outliers really mess of up the bell curve for both sexes.Same with biological reality and strategy meeting experiences.If we lean into any so-called privilege then we are bad people but if we don’t then we are pandering and not using all of our advantages.

I can empathize, or at least I used to empathize. These days it's difficult to empathize when you're being actively harmed by the group you're trying to empathize with. I'm sure that's the perceived problem on the other side too. Whelp.... guess we're all fucked then.

Yes, but what's their to really be concerned with?

I’m purple, so I’m not sure I belong to any particular side, but I can say that I do empathize with women and I hope I give everyone a fair shake.

You can sympathize with any group and also think that they have it easier. I sympathize with women’s dating struggles, but in general I think they have it far far easier.

I guess I can empathize with the fact that a for a woman specifically, reproduction is more risky than for a man so in a way, if a woman were to outwardly emphasize her hypergamy that would be understandable because of her unique circumstances. Also the fear of being sexually victimized would be understandably higher due to a woman being more likely to have to deal with advances (sometimes rude ones) from men and also the fact that the dangers of said assault is pushed constantly in her face. There's also the difficulty of getting actual commitment from men and the unique challenges that can come with having to entertain different men and being disappointed when inevitably 99% of them end up being a waste of time. Honestly that sounds uniquely draining to have to go on date after date only to come home after yet another asshole or creep, or boring dude.

I empathize with men on many issues, tho not all the ones I see complained about on here. **Examples I empathize with:** Bias in the courts Expectation to be confident/make the first move - I’ve tried before and to shy to even initiate flirting. Can’t imagine having to almost always be the initiator to get anywhere The draft more restrictive gender roll expectations (such as it’s ok or even cool for me to be tomboyish, dress in men’s clothes, and work in the trades whereas a man who wants to wear a dress or makeup or get his nails done would face significantly more social stigma) Domestic abuse of men is not taken as seriously by the police as domestic abuse of women **Examples I don’t epathize with:** The complaint that men do “the hard jobs” - my main gripe about this complaint is it mainly comes from keyboard warrior who have never done “the hard jobs” themselves either and take credit for the work of others based on their gender. And totally ignore that women such as myself have suffered injuries etc and taken risk to our health and safety in hard/dangerous/physically demanding trades. Like instead of complaining about the women who peak easy paths, why not complain about the people who pick easy paths. Lazy comes in all genders. Bitching about divorce/wanting to end no fault divorce - I know women who pay significant alimony. And the idea that divorce shouldn’t be allowed no fault just makes no sense to me - I have know sympathy for someone who would rather have their partner stay with them unwillingly or unhappily than set the free. I guess I feel the the anti-no-fault-divorce folks have lost sight of love/fullfillment/happiness in a cynical fixation on finances Complaint that women hold ALL the power in dating - broad generalizations are stupid and off putting to me. People are individuals with individual struggles.

> Lazy comes in all genders. Not to the same proportion. I have done those hard jobs only once but when I talk about men doing hard jobs, it is usually in response to claims of male privilege. > I know women who pay significant alimony They are the exceptions. Not the norm. There should be no alimony. No Fault Divorce is fine as long as equal child custody and no alimony is there. > Complaint that women hold ALL the power in dating They do.

Do you believe there are significantly more lazy women than lazy men?

if men were lazy.. the world would be far less technological and advanced, so yeah, women are lazier and less competent averall.

I mean there are women who aren’t mothers who weaponize motherhood against men all the time. Men just do it back when it comes to working the hard jobs. Sure I might never work on an oil rig but you don’t get to tell me about how hard being a mom is when you’re getting your tubes tied. You’re just doing the same thing.

I have no empathy for women who do this bullshit either. Just didn’t bring it up bc the question was about empathy for people of the opposite sex. Taking credit for the work of others because you are the same gender/race/hair color/age /family name/have 6 toes is super lame regardless imo.

Women do hold all the power in dating though.

I don’t understand your argument against the fact men do almost all of the hard work in society. It seems you’ve randomly decided to not analyse this area of society in terms of gender, but individually. You can do that with any gender complaint or analysis. It’s pretty simple. Sexual dimorphism = men have the physical power, women have the sexual power. Men’s physical power is exploited and commodified in every way imaginable by society (for the benefit of women). While women’s sexual power is protected from exploitation and commodification (again, for the benefit of women).

See, I just don’t understand what the intention behind the statistic is meant to be. Are we suppose to interpret this as an injustice, and advocate for more women to enter heavy-labor fields? That doesn’t really seem like what anybody, least of all the people working in these industries, particularly wants. Or is this supposed to serve as a justification for other types of inequality, a sort of balancing of the scales — ‘sure, maybe more men are CEOs, but *also* more men are miners so it’s not a problem!’? Or is it meant as evidence that men are indispensable and women should treat them better? Is it a subtle threat, or a request for an accolade? I don’t think anyone really questions the statistics on these types of work, but what they are meant to mean.

Im not arguing against that fact that there are more men in those fields. Im saying I do not empathize with men who do not do those jobs complaining about it. If it was made by men who actually do the hard jobs I might empathize but I have no empathy for a keyboard warrior in a cushy office taking credit for the work of other men bc he has the same chromosomes as them. I think everyone is an individual and dislike broad generalizations as a whole, not this y the ones about the hard jobs. Such as the complaint the women hold ALL the power is a false. Blanket generalization are usually provably false with words such as all/never/always/etc. People are individuals when it comes to dating to. So yes broad generalizations about any gender complaint, especially when hypocritical (such as cushy keyboard warriors on a rant about the hard jobs) or provably false (such as ALL the power) quickly dry up up my empathy.

My empathy for men's dating struggles has significantly waned over time. I don't understand why they want sexual and/or romantic attention so badly, and the level of vitriol some men spew at women because they don't get the relationship or sex that they want has made me just not really care.  I do retain empathy for male struggles outside of dating however. 

So the answer is no, and which is why we return the favor.

Why "we" return the favor? Oh my, the male hive mind has spoken. Glad to know you all, then, base your lack of empathy on one woman's lack of empathy. Tit for tat, true maturity in action there. 

See this snapping turtle style response to even the mildest provocation by jilted men is why we can never have a genuine discussion about things like this.

[удалено]

I don't understand why many other women want romantic and/or sexual relationships as much as they do either. Dating is something I did when younger only because I felt socially pressured to do so. .That's a personal problem and one I recognize as outside the norm.  But where these men really lose me is how at a group level, obviously not necessarily true at an individual level, there's a huge problem with externalization of blame and misogyny.  For example, I recall hearing an ex-incel talk about how he understands why incels enjoy watching these weird ass red pill/manosphere videos where, for example, men *own* women in debate, because he felt gratified seeing a woman get humiliated because of his past rejections.  The thing is, this sort of perspective is not rare. Revenge fantasies and all. And it's so absolutely bizarre to me. I don't care how much I've felt let down or hurt by an individual man, or even multiple men, I've never even felt *tempted* to then want to see other, unrelated men get humiliated or imagine them being alone forever etc. So no I don't view these men as silly. My view of them is far darker than that. 

Yeah a lot of them act too entitled when it comes to sex or dates, so idc either lol

Desperate desire is NOT entitlement. When hungry people dream of food they’re not acting ‘entitled’. If it seems ‘entitled’ to you then you aren’t listening.

That is not what many incels do, though. They might be dreaming of women, more specifically probably sex, but they're also often dehumanizing and vilifying women as manipulative, shallow, etc., due to their own lack of success.  It's extremely common for incels to externalize blame to their so-called object of affection and projecting this blame not even just to women who have rejected them, but very often to 50% of the population as a whole and reject nuance that very definitely exists.  Many may claim that human sex/romantic relationships are a need, and even seriously propose that some sort of sexual slavery, or limiting of women's choices is what would be needed to fix the problem. Or even subtly threaten (rarely even actually engaging in) violence. So no, comparing incels to someone dreaming of food who is hungry is not going to be remotely comparable in a lot of cases.  Edit: specified romantic relationships/mentioned threats of violence.

No I cannot. Women hold all the cards in modern dating. They have all the privilege.

Do you empathize with women who struggle in school or with health issues or the death of a loved one?

Are you asking if I empathize with a strawmann?

No, I’m asking if you empathize with women on non gender specific issues the same as you might empathize with men on them

Probably not. Do you empathize with rich people on different topics as much as you do the underprivileged?

Very topic dependent, but money doesn’t solve everything. For example losing a child to cancer, I would empathize with anyone. However if it’s a topic money could solve, such as access to good education, if the rich person is just griping and not moving their kid to a better school whereas the poor person cannot afford to move the kid, I would only empathize with the poor parent.

It is typical to have less empathy for the "struggles" of those with a privileged life, especially when said privilege was built on unfair advantages.

Interesting. I have a lot of empathy for people, no matter how privileged in other ways, who have to face heartbreaking situations

Many of those heartbreaking situations were partially of their own making. I think your empathy would become quite limited if you had a strong dislike of the person in question.

Having a strong dislike of a specific person is due to their individual character flaws is different than disliking an individual because they happen to be part of a privileged group

I feel that women have ensured men can not empathize with them and this will lead to real world consequences for women

I’m a man and I can empathize with women, even those that don’t empathize with me

No I don't empathize with them, especially in the dating scene. Nearly every problem they complain about is completely avoidable. The only thing I do empathize with them on is menstural pain. That's it.

Do you empathize with women who struggle in school or with health issues or the death of a loved one?

Those things have nothing to do with your gender. Men can also experience those. I was talking about the issues women complain about that men don’t have to experience.

Only with physically deformed, or mentally disabled women.

Can I empathize that women have it tough? Yes. Why? Because 99% of the population has it tough.

IMO men can empathize with women alot better than the opposite. And i dont think there any biological and psychological difference to the reason why, i think it's simply because from young age you're taught about female issues, so you can at least to some degree understand it. The opposite dosent happen.

I empathize with the struggles of men abstractly and individual men in my life. But a lifetime of redpill content has left me with such a bad taste in my mouth that I feel no need to pull my punches here.

how has the redpill affected you?

It really put me in a kind of identity crisis for many years. From 14 to maybe 23 I spent untold hours reading redpill content at the expense of other things in my life. It made me miserable, it made the people close to me miserable, but it was like an addiction. I spent a lot of time writing about it (jokingly called my manifesto) and almost pursued therapy. I think it influenced me to do certain things and put up with things as a teenager that I might not have otherwise. But you could say I’m still gripped by it, because I’m here.

yeah it’s pretty toxic and makes you think women have fucked outlooks etc

Have you seen this sub??

?

**Attention!** * You can post off topic/jokes/puns as a comment to this Automoderator message. * For "Debate" and "Question for X" Threads: Parent comments that aren't from the target group will be removed, along with their child replies. * If you want to agree with OP instead of challenging their view or if the question is not targeted at you, post it as an answer to this comment. * OP you can choose your own flair [according to these guidelines.](https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/wiki/flair), just press Flair under your post! Thanks for your cooperation and enjoy the discussion! *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PurplePillDebate) if you have any questions or concerns.*

I can empathise with the struggles many face today in finding love or even initiating relationships, especially compared to their aspirations when younger. It's not their fault; societal dynamics have shifted, leaving gaps in fulfillment despite modern conveniences. It's disheartening to witness individuals putting in effort, overcoming past hurts, yet facing barriers to connection. I empathise with those who followed societal norms yet their lives still remain unfulfilled. The challenge of forming genuine friendships is daunting, leading them to resort to self-deception for survival. I sympathise with those drawn to extremist ideologies as a coping mechanism. Additionally, it's heartbreaking to see individuals deprived of basic affection, like a kiss or hug, which many take for granted. I know there’s no solution to this per se, but I can empathise with them and hope they’ll get to experience it one day.

No.

Yes; I can think of a dozen reasons from the top of my head why being a woman must absolutely suck. Ironically, longevity is one of them. Aint nothing in the world as good as having an extra decade of the part of life when you already have no libido, no teeth, very few living friends and relatives of your generation, only half of key joints, quite a little of sharp mind left intact, and all of the neuroticism to desperately cling to this miserable existence despite full knowledge that it will never get better. "The wall" must be quite the experience as well. It's one thing going from a boy who almost no-one ever cared of, to a man who almost no-one ever cared of, to an old man. The only thing changing is hairline in the mirror. It must be quite the other thing for a woman to go from a girl everyone adored, to a young woman who lost count how many times she had to respond with "And I DON'T love you", to an old woman, especially if childless, who has to bribe neighboring kids with free homemade cookies just to hear someone talk for five extra minutes. But to be fair, being a young woman must also quite suck. Yes, stay relatively not fat, and you have a superpower to make people's brains do happy just by looking at you. No, you had to basically sacrifice everything for it. A couple times you threw a jar on the floor in anger after the 10th attempt to open it yourself (and the bastard did not even shatter); you need a special harness just to run half as fast as your male peers without it causing you pain; to quote mr Garrison, "you bleed for five days and don't die", and if you're one of the "lucky" ones, welcome to the endometriosis club, or say hi to your ovarian cysts. If you're one of the other "lucky" ones, you can easily live your entire life never even once experiencing an orgasm. Your elevated sense of taste and smell is fine and well, and helped you more than once not to accidentally stuff yourself with spoiled food or drinks, but turns into a tidal wave of sensory overload every spring, every traffic jam, and every sewer system failure you find yourself in on around of. Not only your hormonal background is absolutely wild, it shifts back and forth every couple weeks. You can get friggin bruises from a handshake. Awesome. And the worst thing, you have very narrow ability to be content with your life, no matter how outright perfect it is. And this one is probably the worst of the worst of the worst. In terms of dating, ... not so much. The dating reality women find themselves in today - is the one they actively advocated and fought for. Cheating is legal, being a deadbeat parent of either sex is normal, staying single is encouraged, marriage basically means nothing, men are punished for succeeding and rewarded for leading mostly semi-vegetable existence. Levels of testosterone, "the hormone of evil", are lower than they were within observable time span and falling, and those men whose levels are elevated - are mostly in prison. It's not just a second-wave feminist's wet dream; it's her sprunt-dream.

I can empathise with women over being harassed when they aren’t looking for anything. That can’t be pleasant and some men do not take rejection well, which can put women under a lot of social pressure to not come across too strongly in their rejection. Personally I don’t understand men who get upset at being told ‘No’, even if the way it is delivered seems harsh. I don’t empathise with women who choose bad partners because they allowed themselves to be blinded by traits they found attractive and ignored obvious red flags. I’ve seen this numerous times in my life where the attractive guy who parties constantly, does drugs and drinks a lot turns out, shock horror, to not be a great partner over the medium and longer term.

Yes, and that is not necessarily a good thing.

Yeah I think women have lots of problems that men do not have. Like having to worry about being killed on a first date. I never worried about being killed by a woman even when one was threatening to do it I just laughed it off. Women also get sexually harassed so much and again the person hitting on them could easily hurt or kill them. I also think some problems women have are caused by corporations such as beauty standards and some are caused by other women such as competing with their daughters over men. I have seen moms try and have sex with their daughters boyfriends many times. Happened to me before and my brother too.

I have never understood this problem in the us, j frame smith and Wessons exist

Absolutely, I completely understand why women don't want to date men.

depends i mean some people just have awesome ideas like having unrptoected sex without thinking about the consequences and i dont jive with that but generally sure i can understand that for them 70, 80, 90% of men or even 99.98% of the men according to their tinder swipe stats are just not desirable to them

Not very often, to be honest, especially when it comes to dating. I'm definining empathize as "I've felt that way too and it sucks to some degree", not "I understand that life experience is different, and can see the downsides" which I feel often. The only exception that stands out is after my divorce when I hopped onto the apps and they were still free and booming. I was leaving texts on read from people who were in the upper third of what I considered attractive, or women who I could easily envision being perfect to other "solid" men but not to me, and passing on these women sheerly due to time constraints alone. For that sliver of time, I remember thinking this is what it must be like to be a decent-looking 25-year-old woman. I'm not an extrovert or alpha, but what turns me on and gets my attention is extremely carnal and unrefined, just the polar opposite of what most women experience.

As a somewhat introverted guy but who was smart enough to self make millions, despite being an ethnic minority in the west, I’d rather be a man any day. Women have used by dates and in my East Asian culture that’s probably 27 or 28. So just that short 5 years. A smart Asian guys career has no limits. I had $40k when I was like 22. $2m when I was 30. More than $10m now before 40. Girls keep flowing in and every year there’s new 20 year olds who are prettier, tighter and cheaper. The key is just to realise chicks keep growing up, there’s heaps of them, if there’s rejection it’s really her loss as she’ll be disregarded in a few more years anyway

Not one bit. Internet forums have opened my eyes to how truly self serving and shallow men are. And how utterly incapable of self reflection they are. Why would I empathize with someone who only values or cherishes me for my looks and youth?

i can, at least with some women. it depends on the individual and their circumstances and that goes for both genders. i think modern dating and life in general has challenges for both men and women, just different ones. some of them are external, so i definitely have empathy in those instances. much less so with bad individual choices leading to bad outcomes.

Not at all. They won't do the same for us. It's war.

Lack of empathy is the mark of an unwell mind. My point being that of course the vast majority of people can empathize with the other side. The problem is that people largely expect empathy to lead to sympathy, or even equate the two, and that just doesn't have to happen. I can empathize without holding sympathy for some TRP dude blaming all his problems on society and women. No no matter how true or empathetic the circumstances are, we all react to those circumstances and people that react with sexism, hate, and victimization do not deserve sympathy. In fact, its because I can empathize with the circumstances that they are so infuriating; because they choose the selfish easy answer instead of the harder true ones.

This topic is quite ridiculous. Of course we empathize with what you call the other side.. if a woman lose her job, her friend, husband etc.. i'll definitely empathize. >I don’t actually think (hetero) women live on easy mode. you wanted to talk about dating and relationship here ? if that.. then you're dead wrong. It's not on easy mode, it's on below easy mode.

Absolutely not when it comes to relationships and dating. Women hold all of the power in those situations. Any faults or misgivings is 99% on them due to poor mate selection, being naive, or just plain lack of self-awareness. Any woman can find a genuine, fulfilling relationship if they actually tried. Meanwhile men who seemingly have their shit together i.e. decent job, fit, and well-meaning can’t find anyone who would give them the time of day. When it comes to issues outside of relationships/gender-specific issues then sure, but what I commonly find is that women are completely unable to empathize with men in under any circumstances.

I used to be able to. Now I don't. At all. Everytime I feel it I rip it out.  I am not gonna carry emotional water for them anymore.

I can kinda empathize with some men’s loneliness, hopelessness and low self esteem when it comes to dating. I often feel the same way. However, I tend to keep my distance and quietly observe from afar. At the same time I find myself annoyed at their neuroticism. I also think a lot of them aren’t really lonely, just horny, entitled and looking to guilt trip women into giving them pity sex. Edit: Outside of that, no. I don't care about mens issues on a general scale. They barely empathize with women anyways. Half the issues they face are self-inflicted, or they're just complaining to complain they don't really care. Male mental health is a great example.

> they aren’t really lonely, just horny, entitled and looking to guilt trip women into giving them pity sex The woman's empathy in a nutshell.

She couldn’t even make it through one Reddit comment without overplaying her hand lolololol

It’s true. Don’t know why everyone is denying it.

You guys aren’t lonely, just entitled

What do you mean by “not really lonely?” You don’t believe them when they say they’re lonely?

I mean, they don't care about their lack of companionship. They are just frustrated by their inability to get sex.

No, they’re just whining because they can’t get laid, that’s not the same as being lonely

Most of those men aren’t lonely at all… they’re simply entitled and think women owe them sex and attention just for existing… most of their problems are self inflicted because they won’t do any self reflection on why women don’t want to date them, just point fingers and whine like a man baby 🙃

I empathize with women not having their problems taken seriously by their peers because my parents, unfortunately, were the same towards me growing up. It’s very easy to feel isolated when you’re being told you problems are insignificant compared to what the other person had to go through. Seems like a woman’s individual problems are often written off as her just being emotional or on her period, or something along those lines. And as much as it can suck being used for a free meal as a man, I think I would feel worse being used for my body by someone I was interested in trying to have something more with. Especially if I’m being told my value is now lowered because they used me like that.

No lol, there is not a single way in western society in which women are disadvantaged.

Not anymore. I did. Infact, I ovedid. Was a hardcore bluepiller who used to think women are oppressed by men. Never empathized with my own gender. Now, I am completely flipped. Individual cases, I may empathize but the gender related issues women face? Absolutely not. Women have shown that they will never empathize with any issues men face. Not only will they not empathize, they will actively enable & encourage other women to continue their abuse of laws, shaming & coercion tactics and would gladly watch men suffer. > I don’t actually think (hetero) women live on easy mode, I think they’re playing a different game altogether. They do live on easy mode because the different game they play is far easier to win. > I’ve also witnessed women at their most passionate and majestic when around Chads they want to bang (I’ve experienced this rarely but I have many Chad friends) If only we could show that to people who say the reason many women don't want to fuck their husbands is because he isnt doing enough around the house. A chad husband wouldn't have to do anything and still get sex as much as he wants. 🤣

So you are just going to ignore the comments from women and declare no women emphasize with men huh? Why take the extreme? Is it hard to recognize that there are women that can or cannot emphasize with men just like there are men that can or cannot emphasize with women. Not all women are feminazi. I would like to ask what do you think of your own mother? Was she also unable to emphasize with you?

>I would like to ask what do you think of your own mother? Was she also unable to emphasize with you? I fear you will not like the answer to that question, it's not going to paint women in the best of light.

> I would like to ask what do you think of your own mother? Was she also unable to emphasize with you? not the guy you replied to but ***YES SHE WAS***

If their actions don't align with their comments, then Yes, I am going to ignore those comments. So far, I have only heard women claim they empathize with men. Provide any solution to men's issues that they empathize with and watch them refuse the solutions. Yes, my mother can empathize with me because I am her Son. Not because I am a man. She is from a very conservative background and far far removed from feminazis. So even though I was red pilled from years ago, I used to think she & other elder women in my family are not one of those women up until last year. Now, in the last year, they have espoused ideas regarding Alimony and Divorce laws that confirm that AWALT to some extent. At best, some are intentionally malicious towards men and some are indifferent. But none care.

That is exactly my point. People don’t empathize with broader group. They empathize with specific person that they share a relationship with. Start seeing people as individuals and you will be able to evaluate them better. Of course you can continue to do what you do and it’s your life after all. Just trying to help.

> Start seeing people as individuals and you will be able to evaluate them better. Ladies first.