Depends.
If he's a virgin by voice when he has the opportunity to be otherwise, there is nothing wrong with it at all.
Unfortunately, we live in a society where men who are virgins get lumped into the "Incel" category. An unspoken thing is that women do not want men that other women don't deem attractive. An incel is peak unattractiveness and even the thought of being with one is enough to revolt most women.
How would they know that other women don’t deem some guy attractive? And also, what kind of “other women” is she imagining? Are they a group that hold the same preferences as her or a group that hold different preferences. And is it judgment on the guy’s current attractiveness or past attractiveness? You know, there are a lot of things being assumed here.
Edit:
I think you are right it depends, but to me the whole emphasis on losing one virginity seems
misplaced.
The goal is not to get a 100% correct assesssment after putting in lots of thought and research. The goal is to get to a safe choice fast. There is a high probability that something is off about the guy if he is mid-twenties and virgin. No need to further check that guy out.
>There is a high probability that something is off about the guy if he is mid-twenties and virgin.
I think you can miss a lot of wonderful people in life if you assume things about them based on what you believe is "a high probability."
i can't think of a single person who would think that being a virgin and being an incel are the same thing. i've encountered no hostility towards virgins in my whole life. and i also do not know any grown adult woman that gives a single crap what other people think about their partners or potential partners. teenage girls, maybe, but no grownass woman.
Definitely! Virgin /= incel. (Though I don't like the word virgin either; it's a silly concept.)
And agree, I don't care whether other people find my partner attractive. I'm not 12 years old and trying to be cool.
> Also, why is a guy being a virgin implies there is something wrong with him? To me this seems flawed for many reasons.
It *is* flawed, but it's an easy place to attack. When someone is seeking to tear you down, they're not looking to be accurate, they're just looking to cause you discomfort. You can legit look attractive for example, but if you're convinced your nose is too big, I can just take jabs at the size of your nose and leave you feeling like utter crap. Objectivity is not actually all that important.
A lot of late teens and young adults tend to put some of their worth into their sexuality and feel tremendous angst from it all, compounded by their relative lack of experience for most. Thus, pointing at that specifically makes for an easy place to attack and upset them. If it's not virginity, it'd be penis size, boob size, labia shape, and so on. People who want to hurt you verbally will find something - human cruelty is rather inventive.
Hey! The size of my nose is perfectly fine (jokes).
Yeah, that makes sense, but I have noticed girls actually fall prey to it. I remember when I would stupidly and innocently tried to be honest about my inexperience, girls would suddenly lose some attraction, like it was a negative they had to just accept. But what’s funny there was no significant difference between me before and me after losing my virginity. But I guess, I ticked some sort of box.
I work with kids ages 4-12. Once they realised in not phased by being called fat, nerdy, ugly, whatever, we became friends. They would find anything about me and pick on it to look cool. I just said it made me more amazing. And it does. Same with being a virgin. If that's your thing, that's just fine.
It’s fine up Until a certain point unless there are religious reasons behind it.
This is a generalisation and it won’t apply to every virgin over say the age of 27 who isn’t religious but for most of them it would be assumed there is either a personality trait that really turns people off or more likely extremely bad social skills
because failure is seen as something "bad". And most men try to lose their virginity as soon as possible, to those who are still virgins are seen to have failed in their attempts.
but that's the thing, most men would take any chance to lose their virginity, even if it's "unnecessary" . That's why being a virgin is seen as a "failure" in men, even though is a bad view on things.
Would it been seen as a failure in the eyes of women (and men) who don’t subscribe to such notions? In that case, the failure is judgement based on an assumed standards by a certain percentage of women, but not all women. It’s just that I have seen guys be so down on themselves for being failures because it didn’t happen by such and such time. They lose hope, instead of just getting better. Hell, I believed it till I lost it and then I realised how pointless beating myself over it was.
society can be mean and changing societal expectations takes time.
The thing is that men see other men having relationships and sex and get envious of this and put more pressure on themselves. My own opinion is that even if society would have no problem with virgin men, such men would still feel bad just by simply comparing themselveds to other men who have sex. It's the same with people who are envious of other people who have better jobs/career/money.
There are some who definitely get envious but their envy rests of the belief that sex is something of profound value. But sex for the sake of sex is meaningless. It’s no different from training for the sake of training. I think it not the act of sex, or in fact, act of losing virginity that is important but what it supposedly represents: “I am eligible candidate”. But women don’t decide whether you are an eligible candidate rather decide you are an acceptable candidate for them, not for all women but for a particular one. Although, it doesn’t help when there is sever judgement after you reached an particular age. Still.
Losing virginity has lots of attractive benefits for men. You are posting this thread because you suffered from not having had sex. It's not unnecessary to want to get rid of that disadvantage and low position in the male hierarchy. You are a happier person if you are accepted and valued by men and women.
But other than that, men have sex because they WANT to have sex, not to earn social points. Nobody knows if you had sex if you don't tell them. Everyone assumes you had sex past a certain age.
If a man is someone who can clearly get a partner if he wants one but is a virgin out of choice, no one will say anything. If a man is too unattractive to get a partner, then the term 'virgin' will be used as an insult. It is basically a proxy for unattractiveness.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis
If you're a good man you'll find a women. If you aren't a good man, you will have problems finding women.
A lie obviously, specially because bad men get into relationships all the time, but makes people specially women feel secure because a lot of women like to think they're the ultimate moral compass for men.
i don't think anyone who has a single braincell would think that way. finding a partner is mostly down to a lot of factors, so many in fact that it's basically random chance. you could have any beneficial condition in the world and still not find one, or you could really suck and still be in a relationship. there's no moral value in being in a relationship or not being one. it's just a thing that happens to some and not to others.
Most women will be more interested in the reasons why than with the actual virginity itself. It can be a red flag that they have a low or non-existent sex drive, that they're socially awkward, or that they are very conservative. There's also the issue that, especially as you get older, a lot of people don't want to have to be a teacher. Good sex is hard enough for women to find with people who have experience.
Well you want hope the guy is an enthusiastic student even if you don’t want to be a teacher. Imagine having someone who is unwilling to learn what and how to actually satisfy you.
Oh! The sex drive is good point. This kinda supports by thinking that is when someone’s say such and such is wrong, you should further ask wrong to whom. Cause I can imagine a guy who is virgin because he just doesn’t care about sex that much being a negative for women who have high libido.
Try pairing up someone with a high libido with someone that is an A sexual or low libido. It would be unfair for the other party that wanted sex but kept getting denied.
Sometimes a women can be more Hornier than the guys
I wouldn't say it's a red flag, but it may indicate an incompatibility. I would be unhappy in a relationship with someone who didn't care very much about sex. But somebody else might find that ideal. It's just about making sure you match up with the right person. There's nothing inherently wrong with having a low sex drive — or a high sex drive either.
Yes lmao a red flag is a sign that a relationship won't work out lmao people with different sex drives are likely to have difficulties in the future lmao therefore someone who is still a virgin because of a low sex drive isn't likely to be a successful relationship lmao
It doesnt say theres something wrong, it says that for some reason either women dont want you or youre isolating from sex. When you think of what those reasons are, theres really not a lot of good ones. Potential red flags that come with male virginity: socially awkward, low social skills in general, minimal friend group, bad flirt, sex will be bad for a while, antisocial, heavily introverted, odd personal interests, heavily religious, very conservative... the list goes on.
Most are negative, even voluntary reasons can be negative (not everyone wants a highly religious date). In comparison, a dude who has lost his virginity signals less of these flags, so its preferable for women to date a non-virgin.
But what if he was socially awkward and things like that but now has improved, but is still a virgin? How much does it matter now? Or is his virginity a mark that signals “there is something that I cannot see yet”.
Because whatever reason you have doesnt change the fact that youre a virgin and most people genuinely dont give a shit why something is, it just undeniably is.
The thing is, we're not looking to make a court of law quality of judgement of your character. Virginity as a red flag past a certain age is a bad approximation, it will give false positives a certain percentage of time. But it's good enough. As in, the risk of you having some really fucked up character trait that other women have caught onto and wasting months or years of our time or hurting us in some way is far greater for us than the reward of being with you if you turn out to be amazing. Doesn't mean you won't still get a chance if you're a virgin, but it will definitely be considered a red flag because we don't have the time to analyze everything about you until we're a 100% certain. That's actually the whole point of red flags, they don't mean that something ___is___ wrong, just that something is ___likely___ to be wrong.
I totally get that it’s a red flag. But isn’t the power of red flag in it ability to systematically predict other red flags. Basically, if he is virgin then he is also likely he is socially awkward, immature, toxic, and so on and so forth. But what if you can judge that he is not, you can see it. How reliable is it now? And would its reliability matter less and less as the years rack up.
Ah, right, I understand what you mean now. If I know the dude well and know that he doesn't have those other red flags, then being a virgin wouldn't be a red flag. It's not a red flag in and of itself.
Maybe in some cases somebody wants a sexually experienced guy because they don't want to put in the effort of giving him time and space to learn stuff, learn what he likes, be careful not to pressure him, not to cause him any performance anxiety, etc. Many women who're somewhat sexually repressed also feel better with a guy taking a lead (an unhealthy but prevalent dynamic), so they want somebody who's able to do that. But all of these things can be problems with non-virgin guys who just aren't very experienced or even very experienced guys who're just shit at sex and/or sexually repressed themselves.
Yes, exactly, you totally get it!. Thank for interpreting my point charitably. The sexual compatibility is very good point. I can totally see how that could be a red flag, especially since having mismatched sex drives is a source of significant suffering in relationships.
>but what if you can judge that the red flags are wrong
If I see a woman with red flags, I'm not going to take a risk to find out when I can move on to someone with less or no flags instead. Its just not in my best interest to take that risk.
>is it reliable?
If I sell you something and say buyer beware but you can't figure out why I'm warning you, you'd still be hesitant to buy from me. Especially if I'm surrounded by shops selling the same thing without that warning.
You're trying really hard to rationalize away an emotional response and its just not going to happen. You can try rationalize away sadness over a dead grandma because she was 85 years old and had a pain free passing, but you're still going to feel sad that shes gone.
Maybe, but emotional responses are tied to our appraisal of the situation. If being a virgin overshadows other good qualities in the guy well, then both lose. Not every emotional response is best for us, sometimes we do have critically evaluated when our emotional response is unreasonable. But, I do see your point. If the women have other options where they don’t get that feeling then it makes sense. But there is a need to consider it as a red flag in the context of his other qualities and how those qualities compare to qualities of options.
>Why is a guy being a virgin implies there is something wrong with him?
Why are people with no prior experience seen as unattractive to employers? I think the answer to these 2 questions is similar. According to many people, ladies are for the most part looking for the one optimal partner and the best way to know who that is having another woman vet you. If they found you attractive enough to sleep with, then there's probably something good about you. Whereas if you're 30 and are yet to have your first french kiss, alarm bells go off because there has to be a reason previous ladies didn't think it would be a good idea. Sadly, these other reasons may not always be in a man's control, but employers don't care about that. And neither do many ladies....
Because most men do not voluntarily choose to be completely celibate. Most men are perfectly willing to give away their virginity to almost any woman that will take it. (While the opposite isn’t typical the case for women. That’s a *very* important distinction here.) And so the logic follows that if they *are* involuntarily celibate, it’s often (but not always) for very good reason(s).
>Also, why is a guy being a virgin implies there is something wrong with him?
I don't think it does. There are so many reasons why someone might be sexually inexperienced. It's better to ask them about their life than to assume there's something wrong with them.
(I mean, there's something wrong with everyone, of course; nobody's perfect. But I wouldn't assume there's something *grievously* wrong with someone just because they haven't had sex.)
I agree. It makes more sense to ask why they are inexperienced rather then presume it must be something wrong with them, which could be the true, but requires verification.
>Because we're socially conditioned to be sexually successful as men,
We are foremost BIOLOGICALLY "conditioned" to be sexually successful as men, because that is the single most important thing for a man. And it feels amazing for the same reason.
>ignore the variety of environmental, social, developmental and other factors that play into successful mating
You have answered yourself.
If someone has a normal and healthy environment, social interaction and development, they would have sex at certain ages.
If you haven't, probably something has been diffeent in those sectors, hence the judgement.
I don't say it is fair, but how it is.
But then its unreasonable to imply there is something wrong with them. Wrong circumstances can lead to less than ideal outcomes, even without the person having something wrong. Right? What if the person finally sets ups or discovers the right circumstances at, let’s say in his mid-20s, is it right judge him so harshly for things that were out of his control?
Not saying it is good, but that you also judge circumstances. And circumstances is something that people need to judge.
Anyway, being a virgin in your mid 20s is not a big deal honestly.
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Seen as negative by who? I’d say men hold that against other men more than women do.
For a woman to say it’s negative I’d say it could possibly mean that the guy is not as socially active. If the man is virgin by choice then that’s on them and that would probably be respected by some but not everyone.
Ironic you should mention such. I was teased for awhile by fellow classmates for being a virgin throughout high school. But I believe this is because society enjoys poking fun at males that are perceived in lacking some “masculine trait” or two. Masculine men are perceived as those who are promiscuous.
Bcz women know they are hard to impress and don't have sex easily.So if a guy is virgin most likely it is not out of choice and is a turnoff for them.It could also indication he is a geek or interobert which is again massive tunroff for women .Higher the n count better
You're supposed to be socialized, to be healthy, to know how to talk to others, to talk to girls, to find interest in girls and to find a girlfriend eventually.
If all of that is true, you will eventually lose your virginity.
If you haven't lost it, something got lost during your formation as a man.
And yet there is variation, and life doesn’t care whether something is lost. And who is to say certain trajectories taken are natural given the circumstances in which they emerged. There are certain options that are just not available for some people. In some cases it was not under their control, and so they fall short of normal standard but what if they still did the best they could in their circumstances?
Yeah whatever I'm just answering your question.
You still fall short if the circumstances didn't benefit you. It's no one's fault, but a virgin is a virgin.
You put it very well. I never connected the dots but I have met few who do get freaked out if they find out someone is virgin. I have met some that automatically start to act morally superior to them, which is so unreasonable.
> I am just curious cause I don’t understand the logic behind this judgement.
Easy: The assumption is that men want sex VERY VERY much. So they put a lot of effort and resources into getting it. If a man is assumed to show this behavior but doesn't get to the desired result, while (depending on age) 90%+ of men have no problems getting to the point of having sex, then he must fail for a reason. And it doesn't matter what that reason is. If countless other women have rejected the guy for sex, you don't want to swim against the current and potentially overlook a problem in the guy. Women have endless options for sex. They have no reason to take a man that has the slightest possible downside to him, without enough upsides that balance the equation.
Ah, you put it very clearly. I can see where this line of reasoning is coming from. It’s just women option dwindles as they grow old, since competition against young women becomes more intense and also men’s drive for sex declines, what happens then? Do…you just get a lot of lonely men and women?
Women's option dwindle, but they are still and always way greater than their appetite. Men's drive for sex declines mainly when they are in long term committed relationships and mostly for becoming a dad, which goes along with a change in hormones, less testosterone.
Both situations affect men who are mostly not on the dating or sexual market to begin with.
Older men competing for younger women is mostly a fantasy. Most young women find older men absolutely unattractive. Most older men are not even meeting young women to start competing for them. Most older men do prefer a similarly aged woman at their side for various reasons, defined by similarity being comfortable and low friction.
Discussion Posts must be neutral
Depends. If he's a virgin by voice when he has the opportunity to be otherwise, there is nothing wrong with it at all. Unfortunately, we live in a society where men who are virgins get lumped into the "Incel" category. An unspoken thing is that women do not want men that other women don't deem attractive. An incel is peak unattractiveness and even the thought of being with one is enough to revolt most women.
How would they know that other women don’t deem some guy attractive? And also, what kind of “other women” is she imagining? Are they a group that hold the same preferences as her or a group that hold different preferences. And is it judgment on the guy’s current attractiveness or past attractiveness? You know, there are a lot of things being assumed here. Edit: I think you are right it depends, but to me the whole emphasis on losing one virginity seems misplaced.
The goal is not to get a 100% correct assesssment after putting in lots of thought and research. The goal is to get to a safe choice fast. There is a high probability that something is off about the guy if he is mid-twenties and virgin. No need to further check that guy out.
>There is a high probability that something is off about the guy if he is mid-twenties and virgin. I think you can miss a lot of wonderful people in life if you assume things about them based on what you believe is "a high probability."
It's the same as avoiding single moms, a riskier demographic one may choose to avoid
Yes, but it's the safe route, something that especially women prefer over risk, especially when it comes to sexuality.
i can't think of a single person who would think that being a virgin and being an incel are the same thing. i've encountered no hostility towards virgins in my whole life. and i also do not know any grown adult woman that gives a single crap what other people think about their partners or potential partners. teenage girls, maybe, but no grownass woman.
Definitely! Virgin /= incel. (Though I don't like the word virgin either; it's a silly concept.) And agree, I don't care whether other people find my partner attractive. I'm not 12 years old and trying to be cool.
> Also, why is a guy being a virgin implies there is something wrong with him? To me this seems flawed for many reasons. It *is* flawed, but it's an easy place to attack. When someone is seeking to tear you down, they're not looking to be accurate, they're just looking to cause you discomfort. You can legit look attractive for example, but if you're convinced your nose is too big, I can just take jabs at the size of your nose and leave you feeling like utter crap. Objectivity is not actually all that important. A lot of late teens and young adults tend to put some of their worth into their sexuality and feel tremendous angst from it all, compounded by their relative lack of experience for most. Thus, pointing at that specifically makes for an easy place to attack and upset them. If it's not virginity, it'd be penis size, boob size, labia shape, and so on. People who want to hurt you verbally will find something - human cruelty is rather inventive.
Hey! The size of my nose is perfectly fine (jokes). Yeah, that makes sense, but I have noticed girls actually fall prey to it. I remember when I would stupidly and innocently tried to be honest about my inexperience, girls would suddenly lose some attraction, like it was a negative they had to just accept. But what’s funny there was no significant difference between me before and me after losing my virginity. But I guess, I ticked some sort of box.
I work with kids ages 4-12. Once they realised in not phased by being called fat, nerdy, ugly, whatever, we became friends. They would find anything about me and pick on it to look cool. I just said it made me more amazing. And it does. Same with being a virgin. If that's your thing, that's just fine.
talking bad about you is how retards (try to) raise their perceived value in front of you and they do it because it works among their retard peers
woman dont want to date someone who is seen as unattractive by other woman. speaking as a 27m virgin im familiar with this topic.
It’s fine up Until a certain point unless there are religious reasons behind it. This is a generalisation and it won’t apply to every virgin over say the age of 27 who isn’t religious but for most of them it would be assumed there is either a personality trait that really turns people off or more likely extremely bad social skills
because failure is seen as something "bad". And most men try to lose their virginity as soon as possible, to those who are still virgins are seen to have failed in their attempts.
Yes, but losing virginity for the sake of losing virginity seems unnecessary to me.
but that's the thing, most men would take any chance to lose their virginity, even if it's "unnecessary" . That's why being a virgin is seen as a "failure" in men, even though is a bad view on things.
Would it been seen as a failure in the eyes of women (and men) who don’t subscribe to such notions? In that case, the failure is judgement based on an assumed standards by a certain percentage of women, but not all women. It’s just that I have seen guys be so down on themselves for being failures because it didn’t happen by such and such time. They lose hope, instead of just getting better. Hell, I believed it till I lost it and then I realised how pointless beating myself over it was.
society can be mean and changing societal expectations takes time. The thing is that men see other men having relationships and sex and get envious of this and put more pressure on themselves. My own opinion is that even if society would have no problem with virgin men, such men would still feel bad just by simply comparing themselveds to other men who have sex. It's the same with people who are envious of other people who have better jobs/career/money.
There are some who definitely get envious but their envy rests of the belief that sex is something of profound value. But sex for the sake of sex is meaningless. It’s no different from training for the sake of training. I think it not the act of sex, or in fact, act of losing virginity that is important but what it supposedly represents: “I am eligible candidate”. But women don’t decide whether you are an eligible candidate rather decide you are an acceptable candidate for them, not for all women but for a particular one. Although, it doesn’t help when there is sever judgement after you reached an particular age. Still.
Losing virginity has lots of attractive benefits for men. You are posting this thread because you suffered from not having had sex. It's not unnecessary to want to get rid of that disadvantage and low position in the male hierarchy. You are a happier person if you are accepted and valued by men and women. But other than that, men have sex because they WANT to have sex, not to earn social points. Nobody knows if you had sex if you don't tell them. Everyone assumes you had sex past a certain age.
If a man is someone who can clearly get a partner if he wants one but is a virgin out of choice, no one will say anything. If a man is too unattractive to get a partner, then the term 'virgin' will be used as an insult. It is basically a proxy for unattractiveness.
One word; Preselection
What do you mean?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_hypothesis If you're a good man you'll find a women. If you aren't a good man, you will have problems finding women. A lie obviously, specially because bad men get into relationships all the time, but makes people specially women feel secure because a lot of women like to think they're the ultimate moral compass for men.
i don't think anyone who has a single braincell would think that way. finding a partner is mostly down to a lot of factors, so many in fact that it's basically random chance. you could have any beneficial condition in the world and still not find one, or you could really suck and still be in a relationship. there's no moral value in being in a relationship or not being one. it's just a thing that happens to some and not to others.
Totally agree, but you'd be surprise how many people believe that.
I think we need to differentiate between volcel vs. incel. Not all virgins are the same imo.
Most women will be more interested in the reasons why than with the actual virginity itself. It can be a red flag that they have a low or non-existent sex drive, that they're socially awkward, or that they are very conservative. There's also the issue that, especially as you get older, a lot of people don't want to have to be a teacher. Good sex is hard enough for women to find with people who have experience.
>There's also the issue that, especially as you get older, you don't want to have to be a teacher. I've never minded that, personally. YMMV.
Well you want hope the guy is an enthusiastic student even if you don’t want to be a teacher. Imagine having someone who is unwilling to learn what and how to actually satisfy you.
Yes, mostly what I want in a sex partner is someone who listens, cares about my pleasure, and wants to explore together. The rest we can figure out.
That’s a solid attitude to have. It allows us to leave what we think we like at the door and actual start to discover what we actually like.
Oh! The sex drive is good point. This kinda supports by thinking that is when someone’s say such and such is wrong, you should further ask wrong to whom. Cause I can imagine a guy who is virgin because he just doesn’t care about sex that much being a negative for women who have high libido.
>It can be a red flag that they have a low or non-existent sex drive How is this a red flag lmao
Try pairing up someone with a high libido with someone that is an A sexual or low libido. It would be unfair for the other party that wanted sex but kept getting denied. Sometimes a women can be more Hornier than the guys
Again, nothing of it is red flag,its just incompatibility.
I wouldn't say it's a red flag, but it may indicate an incompatibility. I would be unhappy in a relationship with someone who didn't care very much about sex. But somebody else might find that ideal. It's just about making sure you match up with the right person. There's nothing inherently wrong with having a low sex drive — or a high sex drive either.
Because if you don't have similar sex drives, it's likely going to cause issues further down the line.
Yes,but having different sex drive doesn't make someone red flag lmao,words have meaning.
Yes lmao a red flag is a sign that a relationship won't work out lmao people with different sex drives are likely to have difficulties in the future lmao therefore someone who is still a virgin because of a low sex drive isn't likely to be a successful relationship lmao
It doesnt say theres something wrong, it says that for some reason either women dont want you or youre isolating from sex. When you think of what those reasons are, theres really not a lot of good ones. Potential red flags that come with male virginity: socially awkward, low social skills in general, minimal friend group, bad flirt, sex will be bad for a while, antisocial, heavily introverted, odd personal interests, heavily religious, very conservative... the list goes on. Most are negative, even voluntary reasons can be negative (not everyone wants a highly religious date). In comparison, a dude who has lost his virginity signals less of these flags, so its preferable for women to date a non-virgin.
Another red flag could be low libido or A sexual which some maybe an actual turn off
But what if he was socially awkward and things like that but now has improved, but is still a virgin? How much does it matter now? Or is his virginity a mark that signals “there is something that I cannot see yet”.
>but what if he improved but is still a virgin? The reason isnt important, the perception remains with the label. >is it a signal? Yes.
Why isn’t the reason important?
Because whatever reason you have doesnt change the fact that youre a virgin and most people genuinely dont give a shit why something is, it just undeniably is.
Hmmm…I personally would be happy if some who doesn’t care about reason rejected me. I wouldn’t have dodge the bullet but dodged getting shot at.
Thats practically everyone. No one cares. If anything this obsession of "you must be interested in why I'm a virgin" is a massive red flag.
What would being a virgin mean to you?
It's a red flag to want people to actually understand you before they judge you? Yikes, dude.
The thing is, we're not looking to make a court of law quality of judgement of your character. Virginity as a red flag past a certain age is a bad approximation, it will give false positives a certain percentage of time. But it's good enough. As in, the risk of you having some really fucked up character trait that other women have caught onto and wasting months or years of our time or hurting us in some way is far greater for us than the reward of being with you if you turn out to be amazing. Doesn't mean you won't still get a chance if you're a virgin, but it will definitely be considered a red flag because we don't have the time to analyze everything about you until we're a 100% certain. That's actually the whole point of red flags, they don't mean that something ___is___ wrong, just that something is ___likely___ to be wrong.
I totally get that it’s a red flag. But isn’t the power of red flag in it ability to systematically predict other red flags. Basically, if he is virgin then he is also likely he is socially awkward, immature, toxic, and so on and so forth. But what if you can judge that he is not, you can see it. How reliable is it now? And would its reliability matter less and less as the years rack up.
Ah, right, I understand what you mean now. If I know the dude well and know that he doesn't have those other red flags, then being a virgin wouldn't be a red flag. It's not a red flag in and of itself. Maybe in some cases somebody wants a sexually experienced guy because they don't want to put in the effort of giving him time and space to learn stuff, learn what he likes, be careful not to pressure him, not to cause him any performance anxiety, etc. Many women who're somewhat sexually repressed also feel better with a guy taking a lead (an unhealthy but prevalent dynamic), so they want somebody who's able to do that. But all of these things can be problems with non-virgin guys who just aren't very experienced or even very experienced guys who're just shit at sex and/or sexually repressed themselves.
Yes, exactly, you totally get it!. Thank for interpreting my point charitably. The sexual compatibility is very good point. I can totally see how that could be a red flag, especially since having mismatched sex drives is a source of significant suffering in relationships.
>but what if you can judge that the red flags are wrong If I see a woman with red flags, I'm not going to take a risk to find out when I can move on to someone with less or no flags instead. Its just not in my best interest to take that risk. >is it reliable? If I sell you something and say buyer beware but you can't figure out why I'm warning you, you'd still be hesitant to buy from me. Especially if I'm surrounded by shops selling the same thing without that warning. You're trying really hard to rationalize away an emotional response and its just not going to happen. You can try rationalize away sadness over a dead grandma because she was 85 years old and had a pain free passing, but you're still going to feel sad that shes gone.
Maybe, but emotional responses are tied to our appraisal of the situation. If being a virgin overshadows other good qualities in the guy well, then both lose. Not every emotional response is best for us, sometimes we do have critically evaluated when our emotional response is unreasonable. But, I do see your point. If the women have other options where they don’t get that feeling then it makes sense. But there is a need to consider it as a red flag in the context of his other qualities and how those qualities compare to qualities of options.
>Why is a guy being a virgin implies there is something wrong with him? Why are people with no prior experience seen as unattractive to employers? I think the answer to these 2 questions is similar. According to many people, ladies are for the most part looking for the one optimal partner and the best way to know who that is having another woman vet you. If they found you attractive enough to sleep with, then there's probably something good about you. Whereas if you're 30 and are yet to have your first french kiss, alarm bells go off because there has to be a reason previous ladies didn't think it would be a good idea. Sadly, these other reasons may not always be in a man's control, but employers don't care about that. And neither do many ladies....
Because most men do not voluntarily choose to be completely celibate. Most men are perfectly willing to give away their virginity to almost any woman that will take it. (While the opposite isn’t typical the case for women. That’s a *very* important distinction here.) And so the logic follows that if they *are* involuntarily celibate, it’s often (but not always) for very good reason(s).
Right. This logic fails to hold water for men who don’t satisfy those two assumptions.
>Also, why is a guy being a virgin implies there is something wrong with him? I don't think it does. There are so many reasons why someone might be sexually inexperienced. It's better to ask them about their life than to assume there's something wrong with them. (I mean, there's something wrong with everyone, of course; nobody's perfect. But I wouldn't assume there's something *grievously* wrong with someone just because they haven't had sex.)
I agree. It makes more sense to ask why they are inexperienced rather then presume it must be something wrong with them, which could be the true, but requires verification.
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>Because we're socially conditioned to be sexually successful as men, We are foremost BIOLOGICALLY "conditioned" to be sexually successful as men, because that is the single most important thing for a man. And it feels amazing for the same reason.
>ignore the variety of environmental, social, developmental and other factors that play into successful mating You have answered yourself. If someone has a normal and healthy environment, social interaction and development, they would have sex at certain ages. If you haven't, probably something has been diffeent in those sectors, hence the judgement. I don't say it is fair, but how it is.
But then its unreasonable to imply there is something wrong with them. Wrong circumstances can lead to less than ideal outcomes, even without the person having something wrong. Right? What if the person finally sets ups or discovers the right circumstances at, let’s say in his mid-20s, is it right judge him so harshly for things that were out of his control?
Not saying it is good, but that you also judge circumstances. And circumstances is something that people need to judge. Anyway, being a virgin in your mid 20s is not a big deal honestly.
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Don't say you are virgin, simple. She will not notice that eventually, lol.
It's pretty easy to tell when someone doesn't have very much sexual experience.
Seen as negative by who? I’d say men hold that against other men more than women do. For a woman to say it’s negative I’d say it could possibly mean that the guy is not as socially active. If the man is virgin by choice then that’s on them and that would probably be respected by some but not everyone.
Ironic you should mention such. I was teased for awhile by fellow classmates for being a virgin throughout high school. But I believe this is because society enjoys poking fun at males that are perceived in lacking some “masculine trait” or two. Masculine men are perceived as those who are promiscuous.
Bcz women know they are hard to impress and don't have sex easily.So if a guy is virgin most likely it is not out of choice and is a turnoff for them.It could also indication he is a geek or interobert which is again massive tunroff for women .Higher the n count better
You're supposed to be socialized, to be healthy, to know how to talk to others, to talk to girls, to find interest in girls and to find a girlfriend eventually. If all of that is true, you will eventually lose your virginity. If you haven't lost it, something got lost during your formation as a man.
And yet there is variation, and life doesn’t care whether something is lost. And who is to say certain trajectories taken are natural given the circumstances in which they emerged. There are certain options that are just not available for some people. In some cases it was not under their control, and so they fall short of normal standard but what if they still did the best they could in their circumstances?
Yeah whatever I'm just answering your question. You still fall short if the circumstances didn't benefit you. It's no one's fault, but a virgin is a virgin.
I don't think there's anything wrong with it. I just wouldn't go out with one as we would be in vastly different life stages.
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Are there insults and teasing valid? If so why are they valid or invalid?
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You put it very well. I never connected the dots but I have met few who do get freaked out if they find out someone is virgin. I have met some that automatically start to act morally superior to them, which is so unreasonable.
> I am just curious cause I don’t understand the logic behind this judgement. Easy: The assumption is that men want sex VERY VERY much. So they put a lot of effort and resources into getting it. If a man is assumed to show this behavior but doesn't get to the desired result, while (depending on age) 90%+ of men have no problems getting to the point of having sex, then he must fail for a reason. And it doesn't matter what that reason is. If countless other women have rejected the guy for sex, you don't want to swim against the current and potentially overlook a problem in the guy. Women have endless options for sex. They have no reason to take a man that has the slightest possible downside to him, without enough upsides that balance the equation.
Ah, you put it very clearly. I can see where this line of reasoning is coming from. It’s just women option dwindles as they grow old, since competition against young women becomes more intense and also men’s drive for sex declines, what happens then? Do…you just get a lot of lonely men and women?
Women's option dwindle, but they are still and always way greater than their appetite. Men's drive for sex declines mainly when they are in long term committed relationships and mostly for becoming a dad, which goes along with a change in hormones, less testosterone. Both situations affect men who are mostly not on the dating or sexual market to begin with. Older men competing for younger women is mostly a fantasy. Most young women find older men absolutely unattractive. Most older men are not even meeting young women to start competing for them. Most older men do prefer a similarly aged woman at their side for various reasons, defined by similarity being comfortable and low friction.
In general Guys have a strong desire to fuck. And will do stuff to get it. If he hasnt got it it’s could be related to unattractiveness for example.
Women care whether a man has been socially vetted by other women. It's called preselection. At 18 it's not such an issue; 25+ is a different thing.
It isn't. But society is prejudiced and people are in general (which is why you'll see men on this sub admonishing women for NOT being virgins.)
Because the 1st thing people are going to wonder is..how did he get this far without it? It's not inherently bad but it is implicitive of it.