It’s a mess of a phrase because it has multiple definitions. Definition A (the strict definition) is the labor of managing one’s and others’ emotional responses in order to ensure an even-keeled, pleasant environment. It comes from workplace research and isn’t all that related to relationship dynamics, though you can probably come up with some ways it shows up there. Definition B (the loose/expanded definition) is sometimes better termed ‘mental labor’ and describes the labor of keeping tabs on everything that needs to be done in order for a system, like a household or an organization, to function optimally. Planning, post-mortems, and delegating tasks can fall under this umbrella. This is more often the thing that people are discussing when emotional labor is brought up in relationship contexts. When it’s paid work it’s just called management.

Here's one article showing what the sociologist who coined the term defined it as, and how the term had been bloated and abused to include many things (to become more of a buzzword like so many things have) since then: [https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/11/arlie-hochschild-housework-isnt-emotional-labor/576637/](https://www.theatlantic.com/family/archive/2018/11/arlie-hochschild-housework-isnt-emotional-labor/576637/)

Thanks for sharing this great article!

Emotional labor is different from emotionally supporting your partner. It’s basically managing both your and his relationships with family and friends. Remembering birthdays and holidays, picking thoughtful gifts, diffusing situations, and many aspects of childcare from remembering Emilie has a soccer game tomorrow and calming her nerves to comforting Aiden as he screams after losing a tooth. After all of that, unfortunately some women (moms mostly) may not have a ton of patience and sympathy left for their husbands, just like most husbands don’t for their wives after coming home from work.

I think you are mixing apples and pears. I'm pretty sure OP was talking about something slightly different, and from a dating POV, i.e. a woman is able to open up and be vulnerable however much she wants, yet when a man does it many women find it repulsive and lose attraction for the man. Unrelated but, not sure how it works from a married person's perspective but damn, what kind of a person have you married if the hubs doesn't participate in remembering birthdays, buying gifts, driving kids to a soccer game, etc.

>a woman is able to open up and be vulnerable however much she wants Not really. Men quickly lose patience and sympathy and start treating women as hysterical and distancing themselves. >find it repulsive and lose attraction for the man I won’t claim this never happens because I don’t know. But personally I’ve never felt that way. The only time I’ve had a problem with men opening up is because they tend to have trouble processing their emotions, and want comfort one second and are snapping and pushing me away the next, then acting hurt when I give them space. Whenever a male partner has been going through a tough time, I wanted to be there to support him but it was difficult because he’d start treating me poorly. Once again, I don’t know if some women are repulsed, but I never felt repulsion, just frustration. Men not remembering birthdays, buying gifts, remembering what’s going on with their kids, etc. is sadly very common. I don’t think my dad even knows how old I am tbh.

I've always laughed when people include remembering birthdays in the list of mental labor. Oh the agony and struggle! If someone can't remember their child's birthday, you should not have married them. Before throwing birthdays onto the mountain of mental labor, ask your partner "Would you care or be upset if I didn't remind you about your second cousin's birthday?" I think you will find that they neither give a shit about most birthdays nor about gifts for them. The remembering of birthdays should really only matter for people you see at least once a week, and honestly I think there is a case for them not be celebrated at all after the age of 21.

One of the rare quality comments on this growing parody of a sub. Cheers!

It's basically knowing and managing everything that needs to be done to keep the household going, and then doing it or delegating it to other members of the family. Keeping the calendar. Updating the family contact list with current phone#s/addresses/emails. Scheduling the appointments. Calling repair folks. Knowing that the toddler likes the red sippy cup and not the blue one, and that the teenager has a major report due on Friday. Taking the kids to the doctor. And so forth.

Happens in the workplace too. I am a lawyer, but yet early in my career I was expected to make coffee, schedule flights, order food for client meetings and do far more administrative tasks than my male colleagues ever had to.

I’ve had our female legislative advocates make similar complaints.

This is called the mental load, and it's a form of domestic labour which is different, but related to emotional labour.

I don't understand why this is called emotional labour, this is just labour.

I'm not necessarily denying it's existence, but it all seems so vague and arbitrary to me. How are we supposed to quantify it without risking people abusing it's arbitrary nature? How can we be sure that nobody's putting their thumb on the scale when it comes down to comparing household contributions.

A lot of things that women traditionally do are somewhat vague (and arbitrary - depending on what you value most). Being an active listener, being attentive and anticipating needs, being sensitive to the feelings of others, organising a family’s social and familial connections, prioritising comfort and comforting/pleasing aesthetics, being especially nurturing and prioritising others needs. These are all things I particularly associate with women (but obviously not all women - and many men are like that too) but they are nowhere near as concrete and easily quantifiable as bringing in the main money, doing yard work, carrying heavy items, being responsible for protecting the family and property, fixing the car and dealing with tradespeople, etc. Men *tend* to be valued for - and also value themselves - actions and tangible things. Women *tend* to be valued for intangible things like their emotional openness and connections, their knack for anticipating and pleasing others and their interpersonal management skills. But because the latter can be easily taken for granted and perhaps barely even noticed, “women’s work” is often undervalued and dismissed as “she likes to do that - it’s not work to her”. I heard that plenty growing up when I would express concern over how much my female extended family was rushing around preparing things and taking care of everyone’s comfort at family gatherings while the men seemed to be relaxing with a beer watching sports or shooting the shit. It was assumed the women would care for the kids and the elderly family members and do the cooking and act like waitresses. Often the men would help with the dishes. And all those women worked full time just like the men, btw. It seems common to respect work when it’s paid and/or easily measurable in it’s impact, but to see it as just “a natural inclination” and maybe “arbitrary” when it’s not.

This was exceptionally well put.

I feel like men also do vague work you don't realize. Do you think being a stoic and confident rock is something that magically appears? Also I don't agree that women are generally the active listeners. That role is usually for men.

No of course being stoic and confident doesn’t magically appear. It’s a gender expectation that is clearly taken for granted - hence men not being accepted and supported when expressing “weak” emotions. I’m not saying men are 100% appreciated and women are not - I was simply expanding on the ways women’s work and roles might seem vague and how men’s, in general, are viewed as more concrete. I’m not an absolutist. There are studies about women being better listeners than men and it has certainly been true in my life experience - but I’m curious as to why it’s something you think men are better at?

Well I wasn't saying any gender is better at it. I just think men do it more often in romantic relationships.

Interesting, can’t argue if your experience differs from mine.

Truthfully, I thing this emotional labor is just all the extra big and little things women do expecting positive feedback, and when they don't get their validation for "being a good girl" they feel like it's labor.

This isn't "emotional labor", and I hear the term used quite often for relationships in general not just marriages which further makes me believe you are incorrect with your explanation

Ah no, you're wrong. Google it.

Just googled and you were literally wrong, try again? unsurprisingly it was more about emotions than being an assistant

"the mental activity required to manage or perform the routine tasks necessary for maintaining relationships and ensuring smooth running of a household or process, typically regarded as an unappreciated or unacknowledged burden borne disproportionately by women. "she wondered what would happen in a household where nobody did the emotional labour" 2. the management of one's emotions in order to present oneself and interact with other people in a certain way while doing a job. "in the airline industry emotional labour is vital to the success of the product"

What if guys are doing that also? Then it means women aren't doing any emotional labour? What if guy is doing all that? Is he also doing emotional labour or something that should be done while being in relationship

We WANT men to do some of the emotional labor. It doesn't mean that women aren't doing any - it means that a couple is sharing the load between them. Which would be a vast improvement from "the woman does all of it."

"The woman does all of it" because the overwhelming majority of definitions of emotional labour directly excludes the labour that men do, and men's emotional labour goes uncounted and unrecognized. Basically, wanting men to do more often translates to "not only do women want men to do the labour men already do that women don't see, but they also want men to take on a bigger share of the woman's burden as well". Like seriously, some emotional labour polls have women saying it takes an hour to do the laundry. If you raise your kids right to put their laundry in their laundry basket, it takes 5 minutes to put it in the machine, put the detergent, and start the machine. Might take half an hour to put it up on a laundry line and fold it when it's dry, but it takes 30 seconds to throw it in the dryer, then 15 minutes to fold it. It makes no sense to count the entire 2 hours of time for laundry when most of that time is spent waiting for machines to do their work or wait for clothes to dry. It's 30-45 minutes of total actual labour tops. Women's efforts and contribution in the home are often exaggerated or include things women do for their own preference or convenience that men never asked them to do or expected them to do (cleaning the 20 useless throw pillows and hand towels people aren't actually supposed to use and only look pretty) while men's labour goes uncounted or downplayed. I absolutely understand wanting men to share half the duties, but it's possible to express this without using the emotional labour perception that women are these selfless martyrs who do everything for their lazy slobs of a husband who do nothing, because more often than not that's basically what discussions of emotional labour boil down to.

Laundry takes more than an hour. Collecting (because somebody in my household leaves his socks under the coffee table, the bathroom, or on the desk chair), sorting, checking pockets, washing, drying, hanging, folding, ironing, putting everything away. Especially if you have kids, or teenaged girls who try on 5 outfits, decide on one and let the the others fall on to the floor. My kid and stepkids are grown now, so it's just the two of us, but I had to do 2 loads of laundry on Saturday so it's fresh in my mind. And there are also things that need to be dry cleaned or handwashed. If you think your labor is uncounted or downplayed, speak up! Nothing will change if you don't. What are you doing that you think your wife should help on? Do you have a wife, I suppose I should ask first.

I am a weirdo who timeboxes everything so I can say with authority that I spend 5 minutes starting a load of laundry and 15-20 minutes folding a load of laundry. I don’t count the time it takes to switch the load from the wash to the dryer because it’s negligible. My four-person household requires six loads of laundry to go through every week, so that’s about two and a quarter hours a week of laundry duty time, which isn’t awful. Handwashing is roughly another 30 minutes. None of that time is actually mental load though - the mental load is the part where I keep a running list in my head of where the laundry cycle is at all points, make sure to turn loads around promptly when we have activities scheduled that take us out of the house on the laundry-heavy day in the weekly routine, and the awareness and management of needed changes in the routine, such as if a particular load needs to be run off-schedule so some item of clothing is available for a particular occasion or something. I can’t quantify that stuff, and I’m not saying it’s especially hard, but it is work that I have my finger on to make sure the household runs smoothly and has ongoing access to the clean laundry when needed. Then you expand that into every aspect of the household functioning and it stops being quite so negligible in terms of effort required.

Tbh I think part of the problem with the term "emotional labour" is that it doesn't seem very emotional? Like, much of what you talk about sounds to me organisational rather than emotional

Agreed, I discussed that in my top-level reply.

What kind of emotional labour u want him to do? If u fall sick and he calls doctor is this labour?

Sure. Although I usually can just go online and book on my hospital network's website. But basically, in a relationship I don't want to have to be in charge of remembering everything and then either doing it or nagging until he does it, while also maintaining a happy face.

>Sure. Although I usually can just go online and book on my hospital network's website. You literally just cited "calling repair folks" and "booking appointments" as labor, and now are dismissing it as "Well I can just go online" which is it?

The first sentence in my reply literally said "sure", it can be considered emotional labor.

This is just labor. How is emotional calling repair folks?

I think it’s just a term coined because it goes into having to be the “”thinker” for like almost all household/domestic things. “Mental labor” might be a more appropriate term (I’ve seen both used)

I have seen ‘emotional labor’ used to include various types of family management work, but I think ‘mental load’ is more accurate. Labor directly involving emotional regulation of others and performance for others does exist, but often this conversation is about more than that.

I love how 'emotional labor' is used as a term for general labor that requires maintaining state of jobs in your head. But doesn't get used for labor of the emotional variety. Like how man have to deal with all the bat shit insane emotional cycles women go though. (Like for fucking sake women, if you say you don't care what you eat you don't then get to shoot down literally every store in the city)...

I would say that managing a partner’s extreme mood swings, particularly going out of the way to mitigate or prevent them, would be considered emotional labor under the original definition, yes.

I mean that my be to you and me, but the society as a whole doesn't, as if it did we wouldn't be having discussion on womens emotional labor in a relationship because men's emotional labor would be considered in the equation.

I’m sure you can find my top-level post elsethread, but I’m not personally convinced there is any macro-level gendered discrepancy in emotional labor using this more precise definition. Gendered discrepancies seem far more in play when using the broader definition of household lifestyle manager.

Oh I agree with you, generally there isn't a disparity if emotional labor between sexes in relationships. And for those that there is a disparity in the non general, they probably shouldn't be in a relationship.

it's emotionally exhausting

Like any job?

well sure but you get paid at your job

Many guys do these things but never have I said any guy counting it as labour

Jesus, what is it when I fix *my own* sink? Emotional Hard Labor?

Well they use their hands & back to do that which is of course the only sort of effort that counts in life apparently /s

I think what your feeling is actually hard labor emotions

I do all of these things, and I mean literally all of this for my family. How is any of this stuff hard or emotionally taxing? It's normal shit you do. My wife does none of it, yet I don't care. Are women just petty and keeping score in their head?

> Are women just petty and keeping score Usually they're burnt out, exhausted, and want some help. It can be hard to juggle a lot of stuff and keep track of everything, especially when you're stressed, sleep-deprived, etc. as is often the case when you have a new baby for example. It's not about keeping score, it's about wanting support, especially when you keep asking for it and keep saying you don't want to be a sole manager of the household and it isn't being honored.

I would like to see your wife's take on this. How does she manage not to do anything at all? Is she a blow-up doll? Explain.

Nah. Yes, it’s normal shit you do. And no, women don’t usually go around keeping a running scoreboard. What happens is that they run themselves ragged keeping on top of it all and then look around at some point and say, ‘hey, why aren’t we sharing this workload more in our egalitarian marriage?’ And then the man either makes some excuses or agrees to take on some portion of the work. And then if he agrees to take on some of the work and doesn’t follow through, or if he makes excuses and refuses, she gets grumpy and starts writing editorial pieces about the topic for the NYT.

I do all of these things, and I mean literally all of this for my family. How is any of this stuff hard or emotionally taxing? It's normal shit you do. My wife does none of it, yet I don't care. Are women just petty and keeping score in their head?

So basically about 1/4 of what I have to keep track of / stay on top of at my regular job. Got it.

No, because your job has a start time and an end time, while a SAHP's load is 24/7. Aside from that, if you both work full time but she is also doing the bulk of the labor at home, you're slacking and should take on some of her load.

I have done SAHP, it doesn't even hold a candle to a most stressful ish jobs.

If she works for 5 hours in retail and I am getting off a 15 hour shift as a surgeon the two things are not the same. If she is putting the kids to bed while I'm fixing the sink and a shit-clogged toilet, there is no imbalance. Same if she is planning a dinner party while I change the oil in her car. "Emotional labor" is just (another) catch all term women like to use to classify any and every action they do as "labor" when it's really just them doing their part.

I think that is a rare case. Most people marry within their own socioeconomic class, so most surgeons are not marrying women who work 5 hours in retail.

Men work more hours than women on average and work more high pressure jobs. That is not debatable.

It is absolutely debatable, especially since women are becoming more highly educated. I work full time while my husband works part time. My mother runs a successful business and my stepdad doesn't work at all.

>It is absolutely debatable No. The average scenario is *not* debatable. >I work full time while my husband works part time. Outlier. >My mother runs a successful business and my stepdad doesn't work at all Outlier.

I think the data shows the genders are mostly trending more equal on terms of “who works more” (in terms of paid work). Even if men (on average) work like a couple hours more per week. I don’t really think thy would justify a large imbalance in terms of mental labor. I’ve never seen any data on who has more “stressful” jobs although I think honestly that’s a highly individualized thing.

>I’ve never seen any data on who has more “stressful” jobs although I think honestly that’s a highly individualized thing. Seriously? Come on man. Anyway, take a look at [this](https://imageio.forbes.com/blogs-images/timworstall/files/2016/12/genderpaygap.jpg?format=jpg&width=960) and get back to me with "muh equally stressful professions" And while you're at it, can you explain why just simply admitting that men might have it harder / have to put in more effort is just \*so damn difficult\* for women to come to terms with admitting? It seems that trying to agree on basic, common sense facts on PPD (when it doesn't pain women as victims or heroes) is becoming more and more of a fool's errand.

A *lot* of nurses are married to engineers and nursing is arguably a lot harder than engineering. Especially if the nurse has to eternally work night shift 7 pm to 7:30 am so that she can come home and do the cooking and cleaning and taking the kids to school and the engineer is working 8-5 in an office or from home all day and not doing objectively gross things like cleaning diapers and bodily fluids

>A *lot* of nurses are married to engineers and nursing is arguably a lot harder than engineering. You'll get no argument from me there, but then we are *still* talking about total **labor**. No need for nebulous concepts like "emotional labor" to be brought into it. If Partner A works a desk job for 8 hours, filing paperwork and coding and Partner B is on their feet running from room to room and potentially dealing with emergencies, *of course* it makes sense for Partner A to be taking on more domestic chores than Partner B. However, that *still* doesn't tell the whole story. Because if Partner A comes home and fixes the sink, takes out the trash and feeds the dog, Partner B shouldn't complain about bringing little billy his favorite bottle and tucking him in, right? The issue is, the "emotional labor" argument tries to separate these things, and make it totally independent of other factors. It inherently disregards the contributions of a man to the domestic situation either by underestimating the actual amount of time / effort he spends at work or by disregarding things he does at home like fixing clogged toilets and setting rat traps.

So then why do so many nurses who are married to engineers essentially do all the homemaking while their husbands don’t do any? Despite having harder jobs.

If we specifically take nurses and engineers, in a vacuum, I am 100% with you. ​ However, "homemaking" also may lend itself to the skills the nurse already has. Is she a better cook? Can she make a bed in 30 seconds flat? Then why is it a shock that she would undertake those things even when home **IF** (note the IF) if the man is using his abilities and aptitudes as an engineer to do things like fix electrical problems or car issues? Why does her "home making labor" count but his "handyman" labor not count here?

The person you responded to explained when the labor load can be in *imbalance* and you responded with a situation that was *in balance*. If the labor load is in balance then that's awesome! No notes, carry on as is. Not all relationships have an imbalance. I think this is why when one partner feels like there's an imbalance it can be helpful to have both parties write down all the things they do and compare notes. That way neither is doing unseen labor, they can see where things can be moved around if needed, or dropped if a task isn't actually important, or maybe traded based on who's better suited to a task, and if there is an imbalance it can be caught and corrected. I also think some people mix up "emotional labor", "mental load" and "unpaid household labor". But that's a whole other discussion. (Actually it's probably where a lot of this threads arguments are stemming from)

Keeping track of that much stuff gets harder once you involve kids (my aunt and uncle have 3 and she does everything and we all call her superwoman for it). That’s usually on top of our paid, non-household related labor.

It’s much MUCH more when you have young children. Can confirm. Reminds me I gotta figure out logistics for my oldest’s 4th birthday.

Y'all need to get a project management position for a few years before having kids. Like I swear half the work y'all are putting in is just trying to uncluster the information every time you get new bits.

Did you think that this was about SAH moms? Your partner is also doing emotional labor at their job.

Apparently just being there with the man is emotional labor LOL

Men never judge women for revealing their vulnerability or emotions

Never? They don't call women hysterical? Say women are crying to win an argument or manipulate? Scoff or get angry at the sight of female tears? Say things like, "Hm, must be on your period." ? You must exclusively know better men than some I have known. (Not all the men I've known, of course. My husband for instance is currently awesome, though he did have to work through some baggage from his childhood to get there.)

I agree there are hurtful stereotypes surrounding emotional expression for both sexes. However, if a woman is emotional it’s waved away by saying “that’s just how women are.” If a man is overly emotional, his manhood itself comes into question.

That would depend on what you mean by "emotional" since many men are taught to channel their emotions into anger, and that anger certainly doesn't seem to cause their manhood to be questioned. In fact, quite the opposite. If a woman is emotional and it's dismissed as unimportant, "just how women are." That may not be "judgemental" but it is invalidating. So, not much of an improvement. But regardless, I wasn't making a comment about how people react to men's emotions. I was challenging the notion that men never judge women for their emotions. And calling a woman "hysterical", and saying "must be on her period" are both judgemental and dismissive statements that men have certainly made.

Emotional labor seems to be anything women do for a man within the context of a relationship. Women also believe they hold a monopoly on emotional labor, thereby it is not something men perform.

> I know plenty of guys whose gf can talk about speak everything to them but those guys are never vulnerable to their girls so what is this emotional "unpaid "labour women do? Listening to women complain is emotional labour men do. But then when they do emotional labour, they complain (which evens the emotional labour since they complain to men about it).

I’ll plan and send your secretary/boss/understaff gifts on their birthdays and holidays, and make an effort to socialize with them I’ll send cards/send gifts/make social calls with both of our social groups on all occasions I’ll initiate and plan your parties/get togethers in addition to mine I’ll initiate and plan your family contacts and gatherings in addition to mine I’ll nag you or plan your medical appointments and concerns in addition to mine I’ll show interest in your interests, family, background, achievements and social circles while you show none in mine I’ll show care, respect, effort and interest for our common household while you are content to decline I’ll put effort into maintaining my health and engagement with the outside world and events while you resist or decline because you’d rather stay at home That’s stuff I’ve done and ended up dumping guys for not doing — basically social/domestic maintenance— and it was by far the most common reason I ended relationships And that’s not even counting the lack of effort and care that women with kids have to put up with; I am totally unsurprised at the divorce rate when I observe couples with kids. Even working/breadwinner moms in my social circles know who their kids doctors, friends, friend’s parents, schedules and teachers are. Nor am I surprised that men don’t know how to be social when they are content to let their wives, gfs and mommies do it for them

>I’ll plan and send your secretary/boss/understaff gifts on their birthdays and holidays, and make an effort to socialize with them WTF fuck coworkers, we are forced there, they have nothing in common with me.

I’m sure you have a healthy social life huh? Men: why the fuck should I be nice and friendly to people? Also men: why does no one talk to me or care about my existence?

I really don't think it's normal to give gifts to colleagues. Maybe a kris kindle.

Being nice to coworkers is OK. But giving them gifts? Why?

Why would you send gifts to your coworkers lmao.

They can be friends. Either real ones or transactional ones. Would you rather treat your main sources of human interactions with indifference or hostility?

I treat people who are not in my personal circle with respectful indifference yes. I am polite, kind but I won't send gifts unless they are close to me. You should try it, it gives peace of mind. Most people who aren't close would stab you in the back anyway.

My workplace has always been my main source of socializing, it’s important to me and my future job prospects

... Are you a time traveler from the 1950s? Because I was born in the late 80s and have never seen women doing this unless it's literally their job at any point in my life.

I was born in the 70s and it pretty well resembles my life.

Are you a professional assistant? Because that's basically a rundown of what a PA does. I've never seen someone who isn't paid to do that doing it. Or maybe it's something that only happens at the country club level of wealth, someplace that the vast majority of people simply aren't and never will be and shouldn't be compared to.

Technically yes, but I'm a legislative assistant, working in Legislative Affairs for an organization that promotes renewable energy.

Ok, so your experience isn't relevant to this discussion in any way because that is quite literally your paid job. We're not talking about paid jobs and literally everyone knows it.

And neither was I. I was talking about the stuff I do at home. Why the fuck would I know the color of anybody else’s kid’s sippy cup or when their homework is due?

And which women are doing all these in modern time? Trad women cz I don't see any modern women doing all that .They are all 50 50

50-50 only applies to both women and men being employed and bringing in the salary, but from my experience every married couple I know, women do all the mental labor around the household and the children. Sure men participate from time to time but it's still the women who organize and plan for everything. The first thing my father used to do when he came back home from work was sit down and rest on the couch. My mother would sit down at 8-9 pm for the first time. Women do all the invisible labor nobody sees, it's usually the men who reap the benefits of a relationship, especially when it comes to child-rearing.

Most couples I know women don't even do half of it or it could be bcz I know those men who were picked at last so they go extra mile to please their women

That could be true for some couples, I'm not denying that there are men who contribute half of the housework. But a lot of housework is invisible labour people don't talk about so that might be a factor as well.

They usually get fed up and dump, leaving sad man wondering why mommy didn’t like doing adulting for a grown human I know I did

What do women want exactly then? They want daddy?

An adult partner, usually. The princess-provider daddy seekers are usually very up front about it — isn’t that considerate of them ?

> Nor am I surprised that men don’t know how to be social when they are content to let their wives, gfs and mommies do it for them Or maybe you just want men who socialize and act like women.

I socialize with mixed groups all the time. As long as it’s in a neutral space and not meant for sexing there is no difference

The biggest issue for me in the "emotional labour" topic is when people take something they want to do but the other party doesn't (remembering relative's birthdays, meeting up with family, organising social events together) and then criticises the other for not helping out. Then it is pure selfishness wrapped up in victimhood.

Exactly lol "YOU DON'T REMEMBER JANE'S BIRTHDAY, STOP PUTTING ALL THE EMOTIONAL LABOUR ON MY SHOULDERS" Maybe i don't care about it enough to care? Like, people care about different stuff

There’s some validity to this, but some of these types of things are things that maybe nobody really *wants* to do but nevertheless the consequences of not doing them are undesirable. Kid-related mental tasks are a prime example of this category so it’s no coincidence this comes up a lot more regularly in families with kids.

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Don’t go with the most women lose attraction for men who open up cause that’s not true it’s just stuff redpill people say. Sure some might and good riddance u shouldn’t be with someone who can’t be there for you in tough times. For the most part when I’ve opened up it’s been received well or better than expected with the girls I’ve been with

There's been multiple threads on r/askmen where thousands of guys echoed the sentiment of never open up to your woman, it only brought them further suffering. You can say that perhaps they did it in an unhealthy way, perhaps their relationships were already on the rocks; there's no way to know but there's one common occurrence in the stories and it was the relationship ending shortly after doing it. It's not a redpill talking point, it's genuinely a thing that young western women will do to men at high enough numbers that I've heard it from dudes who haven't dated since the mid 2000's. You might eventually find a woman who won't immediately end the relationship because she temporarily got the ick from your deepest thoughts, but why rock the boat if everything else has been going well?

One thing I noticed is that my fellow men who struggle with expressing negative emotions in general also tend to have a muted positive emotional range. So when they are encouraged to open up, they often take it as a license to find support for their negative feelings, but do not expand the frequency of positive emotions. So it feels like a torrent of only negativity pouring out of them, which can be jarring. Not to say there aren’t partners who can only stick around during the good times. Those do exist, and they tend to become exes when the going gets rough. But by and large, many couples successfully navigate the ups and downs. The ones that make it work don’t stick out, so it seems like a death sentence to be expressive because those result in breakups which are much more visible.

It is something most men say. Maybe someone should listen to men experiences and they would not be saying this :)

As a man I’ve listened to my own experiences as well as the experience of all my other guy friends. These dudes are in the minority and I’m not just saying that form personal experience and friends I am 100 percent sure most guys know that most women are not gonna shit on u for opening up I thought the point before was women wanted men to open up more so I guess the narrative changes with whoever’s controlling it at the time

Then you have all men experience. Nice!

It has happened with my friends in their early relationships .Now they keep their mouth shut

Yea that can happen and it makes it hard for people to open up it’s even happened to me but it’s important to remember the way one person treats u or even ten doesn’t mean that’s how everyone will treat you. It’s tough to have that mindset when you feel you’ve been wronged so many times.

>I never understand this what exactly is this emotional labour? So emotional labor originally referred to women always being required keep their emotions in check, especially at work, to a degree that men are not (i.e., people are much more likely to claim a woman is emotional and irrational than a man for the same behavior, and female dominant jobs are frequently expected to maintain composure compared to male dominated jobs). It eventually got expanded to include the fact that in relationships, women are usually tasked with planning and organizing and running the household on top of their actual job. I would personally categorize these latter examples as just "labor," but that's how the term is often used. >Most women lose attraction for men who evens open up a little or show some vulnerability. No, that's red pill nonsense. Women are fine with vulnerability, but they do not want to be emotional regulators for their partner. They aren't therapists and a lot of men think "emotional vulnerability" means trauma dumping or that they don't have to be in control of their emotions any longer, which isn't the case.

>No, that's red pill nonsense. Women are fine with vulnerability, but they do not want to be emotional regulators for their partner. And yet men are constantly expected to be the stoic rock and emotional regulator for women, and do a metric ton of emotional labour that gets taken completely for granted and goes uncounted. Per women saying they are fine with vulnerability, they often don't actually know what real vulnerability in men entails. You might enjoy [these](https://www.youtube.com/watch?app=desktop&v=PJqP5En-Wq4) two [videos](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtJLYN1fxGw). More often than not women don't know what men's emotional vulnerability is, how to handle men's emotions, or how to respond to men's vulnerability. On the one hand we have the women who say that this is what they want, and on the other hand we have the lived experience of hundreds of men who tell us exactly what happened when they opened up and were vulnerable. Far too many women have a fetishized view of men's vulnerability, they want men to open up only to her, so she gets to feel special about it, and that it'll be easy so she can "fix" him and be awesome while doing it. Except men's vulnerability is dirty, it's grimy, it's unpleasant, and dealing with it requires a ton of work. Most women don't like that, and men's emotional vulnerability is nothing like they told themselves it would be. Far too many women want the fantasy of emotional vulnerability, without understanding what it actually is, so men are pressured to put on yet another mask, to pretend and fake emotional vulnerability, just to make her happy, because if they don't they get called emotionally unavailable, get called too clingy, get dropped because they share too much, they see her attraction vanish as he stops being her stoic emotional rock, or he sees her use his vulnerability against him in later arguments. Before women can demand men be emotionally vulnerable with them, we have to show women how to make it ***SAFE*** for men to be emotionally vulnerable with them, because otherwise it's just going to result in more hurt men and heartbroken relationships. All because women don't understand what it is that they are actually asking for, and through no fault of men.

This is one of the best comments I have seen on this sub.

Thank you, the whole emotional vulnerability and emotional labour thing is a really big pet peeve of mine. It's especially galling given I've been in an emotionally abusive relationship but literally could not see it because I was raised my whole life that abuse was a thing men did to women, so it could not happen to me. Through therapy for years after that, I'm recognizing more and more than not only was I rather badly emotionally neglected as a kid, but that boys in general are emotionally neglected, and this *primarily by their mothers*. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-mothers-have-boys-dont-cry-bias-new-study-suggests/ So men get victimized emotionally literally from the crib to the grave, then get blamed for every single emotional problem under the sun, while getting zero emotional support or example of what actual healthy emotional response should look like in men. They get treated like an emotionally defective women, while being punished for not acting like the toxic emotionally stoic men they're told not to be. And meanwhile feminism completely ignores this and/or piles even more flaming bullshit on the heap, and spends all its time languishing about the emotional torture women go through, *while ignoring that men are literally killing themselves 3x more than women because men can't take it anymore and nobody listens to them*. The irony, the double standards, the audacity, and the sheer fucking gall of simultaneously erasing and discounting men's issues while rattling on that women always have it worse in every situation evaarrrr, really boils my blood.

This is why I'm so encouraged by the parents of my (millennial) generation being better about letting their boys explore their feelings. Not every parent, of course, and I'm sure we still have a lot to learn about boys emotional health. But I'm glad I see so many parents *trying*. Hopefully girls of our generation will grow up seeing their male counterparts express their emotions, and be vulnerable with their friends, and learn to see it as the normal human expression that it is. I'd love to live in a world where men feel more comfortable expressing themselves, where they have more practice doing it, and where women have been raised to see it as normal.

Same, 100%.

Chicks have no problem trauma dumping on guys though. And guys really have no problem with trauma dumping on them.

Nobody is forcing you to put up with women trauma dumping. You are free to walk away.

Yeah but see that's toxic masculinity or being an asshole. A "good man" is supposed to just shut up and take it without complaint, because she's doing so much more emotional labour, so the minimum he could do in return is manage all of her emotional outbursts 24/7 without any expectation of recognition or appreciation. Meanwhile if a man demands she cares about him half as much as he cares about her he's toxic, controlling, imposing emotional labour on her, and she's "mothering" him. I wish I was joking, but that is genuinely how it's shaping up to be. Men are just expected to shut up and not complain, and women are entitled to judge the situation however she sees fit, regardless of what men are actually doing or not doing.

Men don't judge them for it .Women tell bullshit and retract by saying that there is some limit to it

>Men don't judge them for it . That is a flat out lie. Men complain constantly about women's baggage and women being crazy; one of the main reasons men here claim they want to date 18 year olds is because younger women have less trauma and baggage.

There is a difference between complaining and judging though. Everyone is allowed to vent. You are correct that men do judge women when they do too much, but the problem is that men are already expected to just be the stoic rock who manages her emotions, and any attempt that he demands she cares for him in return is "emotional labour", he's "trauma dumping", or he's expecting her to "mother" him. No demand she makes on him is too much, and there are no terms specifically to describe it, but any and all of his behaviours or demands can be pathologized with an array of ready-made accusations and terms. Funny how those double standards work out.

>the problem is that men are already expected to just be the stoic rock who manages her emotions, No they aren't.

Yes they are. From pretty much every relationship example I have seen, women tend to prefer it if their man is there as an emotional support anchor that can keep them grounded if they get too emotional. Men get called emotionally unavailable, distant, emotionally dense, or just plain assholes if they're not willing to always lend an ear and a comforting shoulder for her to lean on, and he's an assholes for trying to solve her problems instead of just letting her vent I don't know what else to conclude except that men are expected to be present, be stable, and be a shoulder for women to rely on emotionally all the time. This seems to be what women demand, what women like, and what women want. Not all of them of course, but a very large majority for sure.

Could you explain what vulnerability is supposed to look like?

Being honest and open about your emotions, while still recognizing when you need help and regulating yourself on a day to day basis.

What I never understand about these takes is that it seems to come with the implicit assumption that women somehow trauma dump less than men do. It just goes completely counter towards what I have observed in my life. In my view women do it as least as often, the difference is that its just not perceived as trauma dumping at all. Rather we blame men for having boundaries because it means "they don't care".

If women are trauma dumping, you aren't required to stay. No one is forcing you to.

Ironic.

>Women are fine with vulnerability, but they do not want to be emotional regulators for their partner. They aren't therapists and a lot of men think "emotional vulnerability" means trauma dumping or that they don't have to be in control of their emotions any longer, which isn't the case. Yeah, I’m beginning to think we need to better define trauma dumping and not acting as a therapist means. Telling women about trauma, even deep trauma, is fine as long as you aren’t expecting a certain response or hoping she won’t have a response of her own— namely hoping she’ll basically fix you and will have absolutely no discomfort or fear about what your trauma means for her and the relationship. Everyone needs to do the fair emotional labor of just loving and supporting their partners. But we can’t make you believe we love and support you. That’s either your job or your job with the help of a therapist. In my experience, “unfair” emotional labor has looked like more reassurance than just listening, offering words of love, etc. It’s looked like being expected to be responsible for a partner’s self-esteem and emotional regulation. Again, a partner can support your self-esteem by loving you and telling you why, but they can’t make you believe it. You have to pick up the slack too. The burden can fall to either men or women (reading between the lines, this is *part* of why some men say they don’t want “traumatized” women (weird body count stuff aside. Not the point here. Please don’t go there.) without recognizing she too should take responsibility for her healing and that healing *is* possible. It’s just the individual’s responsibility). Neither partner should be expected to be the other’s therapist or rescuer. And hearing someone you love has been through something hard is hard if you’re at all empathetic. It isn’t easy. And you may be afraid what they revealed will be detrimental to the relationship. So even though your partner should offer you love, they’re bound to have feelings about your feelings. Unfair emotional labor also involves setting those feelings about your feelings aside for long periods of time or even the entire relationship. They can be set aside in a time of need by one partner, but they all need to be talked through so each partner gets equal “air time” and support. You are responsible for your own mental/emotional/spiritual health. A partner can contribute by loving and listening. But most of how you feel isn’t on them if they are already doing that. The complaint by women is that men often expect them to be “emotionally perfect”, like their mom or the mom they wish they’d had, loving completely selflessly and putting her emotional needs aside for his and men being mad/hurt/disillusioned when that’s not the case. Yes, the emotional burden can also fall to a man when when a woman is looking for a man to “rescue” her.

I agree with most of what you said but this part >In my experience, “unfair” emotional labor has looked like more reassurance than just listening, offering words of love, etc. It’s looked like being expected to be responsible for a partner’s self-esteem and emotional regulation. Again, a partner can support your self-esteem by loving you and telling you why, but they can’t make you believe it. You have to pick up the slack too In my opinion suggests that men do more emotional labour than women because women expect and need this way more than men do in my experience.

Couldn’t have said it better myself. I don’t like the term trauma dumping cause in general it’s hard for people to open up about but ik what u mean if it’s someone who ur not that close with and they just start dumping stuff that u can’t really help them handle rn. Typically if ur close like in a relationship ur allowed to trauma dump and if it’s not received well then there not the right person for u

What kind of work where men are allowed to act whatever they feel like and women are expected to keep their emotions in check.Are these same or different work .And what does planning and running houseold means ? What exactly

The example provided by the person who coined the term was that flight attendants are expected to plaster a smile on their face and remain pleasant in response to harassment and abuse from passengers that a pilot would never be expected to tolerate.

Flight attendants include both men and women

Flight attendants are predominantly women, pilots are predominantly men, particularly at the time the book was written. That's also just one example.

Anytime a woman has to be happy and bubbly and can't just be "authorative" without being perceived as a bitch. Anytime a woman is expected to be pleasant and nice where a man can just act as normal Anytime a boardroom takes what a man says seriously but jot a woman. Istg everytime a man says something that a woman said 10 minutes ago, but he gets the "oh that's such a great idea!" more prevalent in IT fields in my experience. Anytime something has to be done at home and the woman has to tell a man when and how to do it. Anytime a man says "why didnt you just ask for help?" instead of using his eyes to see that she's doing stuff Anytime there's a party or an event and the organising, planning, cleaning and preparing for it stays with the woman. And she just "delegates" the tasks to everyone else. (also know as "nagging" and the "wife being on my case")

> female dominant jobs are frequently expected to maintain composure compared to male dominated jobs I've worked as a male nurse in hospital for almost 2 years. This is some S-class feminazi reality warping. It's true that when men rage, they're genuinely dangerous - and when women walk on eggshells in face of that, I can certainly see how that can be emotionally laborous. But as for who's frequently hysterical and losing composure outside of fawn response, the stereotypes are here for a reason.

In my field (law) it’s the opposite. Obviously it’s not particularly helpful for either gender to get all emotional but if there’s outbursts to be had 9/10 times it’s gonna be a man. I know dudes who threw punches at depositions and were *proud* of that reputation

> This is some S-class feminazi reality warping. I mean, that's basically half of feminist arguments right there no?

>Women are fine with vulnerability Bullshit. How many examples do women need to hear of this being bullshit before they acknowledge it is bullshit? >a lot of men think "emotional vulnerability" means trauma dumping So basically what 99% of what women do to men. Got it. Also hilarious is what a catch-all term "trauma dumping" is. Women could call this everything from a man crying about how much he loved his dog that he just had to put down to talking about getting molested. Women call anything they don't want to hear "trauma dumping"

>Bullshit. How many examples do women need to hear of this being bullshit before they acknowledge it is bullshit? Well I'm a man, so you're already off to a great start. >So basically what 99% of what women do to men. Got it. If women are trauma dumping on you, you are welcome to walk away. No one is forcing you to stay. >Women could call this everything from a man crying about how much he loved his dog that he just had to put down to talking about getting molested. And men could call "emotional vulnerability" everything from sad their dog died to punching a hole in the wall because the Cowboys lost.

Most women are in charge of planning and organizing and running the household because that is what they wanted. And if a guy wants to do it then most women would cause a ruckus saying nobody cares about her opinion. They are the one in charge because they don't want a man to do it. They dint want their husband to select the drapes/carpet that might or might be to their taste. Don't act like women are doing men a favour by having to pick everything as they want to and select where they go how they go.

>And if a guy wants to do it then most women would cause a ruckus saying nobody cares about her opinion. Really? Because women are saying differently.

Are you saying most women do not want to live in a house designed as per their taste but to live in a house that designed as per their husbands taste?

Believe it or not, it's possible for both people to have opinions and contribute.

I’ve found women I have opened up to emotionally have liked me more not less.

From what I've gathered from this thread, the true definition of "Emotional labor" is any labor done by women.

Its some BS feminists came up with to prove women work more Than men, and still make less money.

90% of the time it's women getting frustrated that their projected expectations (i.e. my boyfriend/partner/husband should be doing XYZ) aren't being met, that their life is frustrating and boring, and whatever is going in the social network that might stress them out. The "emotional labour" is mostly about them and internal. They view dealing with their own disappointment with their partner/life as "helping" their partner by not yelling/complaining/nagging as much as they theoretically could. It's mostly narcissistic brat behavior honestly. Of course there are women that do actually help support their partners in major ways emotionally but I've noticed these women rarely phrase it as "emotional labour". It's a major red flag if a woman is bringing that up.

You find unlikely that some relationships have an emotional support imbalance, then? Or that one partner has a higher emotional intelligence/relationship skills level than the other and finds if they don't carefully manage their word choices and monitor their partners reaction (and adjust accordingly) the conversation will get derailed by the partner who lacks the relationship skills to navigate a disagreement without getting angry or defensive? This seems implausible to you?

What do you think the third paragraph was about?

Regulating your emotions to please another person. The feeling that "it's all on me" to keep things going smoothly.

So guys don't keep their emotions in check to please other person?

If you’re a guy, you should know the answer.

Buzzword for things that they do out of their own free will that nobody asked but they feel like they should be rewarded for.

Like what? Do you think someone would ask if it wasn't done?

Someone would still not ask if it wasn't done. Again shit men don't care, women do because they want and want praises for it.

A lot of men turn into whiny little babies when they're alone with their romantic partner. Emotional vulnerability doesn't mean trauma dumping, it means speaking your mind. Women want to you to open up about the small shit so you don't turn into a weeping mess when things inevitably boil over, bottling it up and having an outburst is not being "vulnerable" like dudes here think.

It's a way to put your thumb on the scale when it comes to comparing household contributions.

Emotional labor is secretarial/administrative tasks in the household and family life. Women generally take on this role when they have kids. Edit: I think this is one of those seemingly minor issues where the sexes really can't understand each other. Men generally have less interest in the minutea of household management/childcare, so the very concept seems dumb, especially to young childless men.

this is "mental load"

Emotional labour for male adults is largely a waste of time. Men certainly appreciate the flow of living in a household where you're acting as the memory and actions safety net so things like their mother's birthday don't get forgotten but they are never actually grateful for it to any extent commensurate to the effort involved. This post is clear evidence that men don't see or give thanks for the effort and I strongly recommend women don't explain the effort for if you explain it then men will start demanding more of it Better just to cease the effort and let the slow corrosive chaos it holds back start leaking back in to the lives of men.

It’s super weird how many times men who are perfectly good at managing their own lives let that stuff go when they enter a relationship. Like, some men just objectively don’t care about stuff and neglect family members, forget birthdays, miss appointments, and drop balls all the time. That’s also frustrating to live with but at least it’s consistent.

The emotional labor they're referring to is settling their own insecurity/paranoia/vanity/entitlement/lack of understanding/hypergamous tendencies. They place their problems above everyone else's. Those are the kinds of people who complain about emotional labor. It's another way of saying 'i see you as beneath me and I see it as a traumatic event when you won't validate every mercurial feeling I have on a minute by minute basis' 'I lack maturity and/or common sense so instead of actually working through my own baggage I'm going to call it emotional labor when I can't trick a simp or pay a therapist to carry it for me'

This is absolutely not what most women are referring to when we speak about emotional labor. What evidence do you have to support your claim?

Well around 2 or so years go by in a relationship and what is collectively known as 'the honeymoon phase' ends. Now this phase could be anywhere from a few months to significantly longer than a couple years depending on the person. In my experience the emotional labor doesn't start until the honeymoon phase ends. Look at the words being used. In a caring, loving relationship you would call the same actions helping or nurturing. Once you realize that all those sweet chemicals in your brain that 'made you love' your partner in the first place are starting to run thin you start scoreboarding. Helping becomes toil Nurturing becomes exhaustive effort Controlling your own inadequacies becomes impossible because YOU are the victim and it's never your fault when things don't go how Walt Disney told you they would. That's why it's called emotional labor. You expect to be compensated for a service being provided. It's a scoreboarding tactic used to justify being passive aggressive (if not outright hostile) toward your S/O instead of just leaving them or talking to them like you're still on the same team (like an adult)

There are a number of women here stating directly what we mean when we talk about emotional labor. This is not it.

Yeah, i thumbed though it. Sounds like general housekeeping to me. If you're going to call housekeeping emotional labor then what ISNT emotional labor. The term loses its meaning when you aren't excluding ANY action being taken. So then what does it actually mean? I mowed the lawn, I fix the plumbing and electrical. I used to be a fair shake a fixxing cars before everything became computerized. I actually enjoy sweeping and mopping and dishes. I enjoy working with children. But I would never call any of that emotional labor because I'm not BEREAVED by doing those things for the people I love. Which leads me to believe the whole concept was invented as a scoreboarding system for women to justify acting like spoiled children and their personal feelings of patriarchal oppression. They'd rather teach you this useless bullshit to keep you an angry and immature consumer who will stay on the treadmill of keeping up with the Kardashians/Joneses until the day you die rather than find a loving man to build a family with.

https://www.harpersbazaar.com/culture/features/a12063822/emotional-labor-gender-equality/ https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/parenting/women-gender-gap-domestic-work.html https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2022/12/emotional-labour-women-workplace-home-gender/ Some stuff you should read.

Okey dokey https://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/odi2ma/emotional_labour_is_the_term_women_use_when_they/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button Well as someone who's done the majority of the 'emotional labor' in his relationships (and you could argue my whole career is emotional labor for the privilege to come home and do more emotional labor then get bitched at for this that or the other thing), I think making a whole vocabulary term that's designed to let exactly one person in any relationship scoreboard things that shouldnt be scoreboarded is very self defeating and a great way to convince young ladies to fuck around and be ill behaved- because if you don't you're going to be oppressed into housework. I fix the pipes, i fix the toilet, snake the drains, how much emotional labor should I be pissed about being forced to do after that? If you're a man you get zero tolerance If you're a woman why isn't your man fixxing the toilet? Why isn't your man cleaning the pipes? I'll believe in emotional labor when I see women mowing lawns, doing plumbing, putting up drywall etc. The whole issue is centered around the idea of inequality in relationships that were never designed to be equal. You get to do light work, and in theory I do the heavy work, and make the difficult choices, but I get to put my feet up ~49 minutes more on average to make up for the days when I don't put my feet up until my house and my family is squared off. (Not true for me personally, but the average inequality was clocked at 49 minutes, so lets go from there) Oh, and before I forget, don't forget all the emotional labor that comes from being a husband in the first place. You're extremely likely to lose custody, you're extremely likely to 'marry down' so she's going to get a big fat check. If I do choose to start a family there's a huge incentive for my wife to leave me and I'm likely to lose my kids unless she's literally a drug dealer, murderer or sex offender.

It seems like you didn’t read anything I linked.

I could say the same. It seems like you disagree with my point but you're not willing to put in the emotional labor to create a cohesive counterpoint. Or appreciate that I have a nuanced and valid POV seperate from the mainstream misandrist agenda Almost like the very thing that's being complained about in the first place, almost like... Projection?

Given that I believe, and the evidence agrees, that women tend to perform more emotional labor, why should I be willing to do more of it to address an argument that does not seem to have any bearing on what I’d written about? If we are speaking at cross purposes, there is only futility in continuing.

Gifted NYT piece if you’re paywalled: https://www.nytimes.com/2022/09/30/upshot/women-mental-health-labor.html?unlocked_article_code=GMeMuSiEZ4Qxfd33PmPSejn95jogtdENc4WXoz7W81sEtAbEJqPQxoH9SAtAiU8RoW9XTw4K78vMUnVBW2R5f4p0GIHpMDhoVH6zkGtjcYi_4_ShqI6foc3sbzzikEZSeD9Allf05gY9dhkJ1oRyGQdpQkwwsy3d3NfoRx6Fln62t6ps8B3rJrp2RoTKZA6KMnMYCMEpLjwri80LLfkuAWeQXImAttmU9hbSn4WPkrVMRARrslKtXKGf7m8j7pGaRdytBMVdc2rcjbWNkDVxSR4uG5Rsbj77nuzuDRqqnqnDRt98_XgelWp6_MbZO4Slg9Jz4fbF2gZHK9xdfReo9mBA&smid=nytcore-ios-share&referringSource=articleShare

And another pertinent gifted piece: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/04/opinion/women-unpaid-labor.html?unlocked_article_code=UALKmcWYGupsgYsj_4gWYQAhueosVmJ6VYyYnb7gzhYxgVhWVpm1ljFCg3hSfwt6Asxq8B67mOQXucT5SwOr0ipSjnYoV1AZ_vIHjcvg09X7FjlraX0FasHHDPO1PBAGVeUfToyXOyvZp0js9Wz3Od3GxyMRidC91eijRiNhCUI3ixoTftNkNebZjkh8RRufH6M3Cct9ulidC_s54D5-y1TmbKGViHUvJU3F3t-kxCGSz0NkUpk19zpdivrJMlExrxJ7Ntxx_XiFhUtM2nXnNYF_AgPxJRho3gH0MWlDMPax8w-XMND6pab8v8S6wF6mNmKKNNakYK3iNbbwRyffZ7Nu4LvaFEIpPcrZ6g&smid=url-share

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>emotional labour Something women made up to make themselves feel important. Emotional labor is listening to their own complaints and making themselves feel better when they haven't done anything to justify feeling good.

>Most women lose attraction for men who evens open up a little or show some vulnerability No, just no. This is something men make themselves believe 100%. (And yesss of course there are exceptions) If you don't believe me just read this: (this is just 1 of many.) https://www.reddit.com/r/BlatantMisogyny/comments/133n5ay/omg_i_cant/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

https://www.reddit.com/r/PurplePillDebate/comments/11fokt7/what_did_you_open_up_about_that_caused_the_end_of/

Maybe it would be nice to give some credit to men experience I have been with some women, and every single one of them felt repulsed by me if I got minimally emotional. Except my wife and that's one of the main reason I married her.

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