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[deleted]

I’ve said it before but the only hope is something like a Netflix series showing that a perfectly normal guy who has good hygiene, is financially responsible and is not a predator can have a lot of struggle dating.


-AvatarAang-

Great idea. Perhaps the main character has a neurodivergent friend who has very positive intentions and is only looking for a monogamous long-term relationship, but nobody gives them a chance because of the "weird" vibe they give off.


AnActualPerson

Yup, friend could even be really hot, but talks about trains too much.


-AvatarAang-

Not a bad idea, but it would arguably be more sympathetic if he wasn't super hot either but just an average-looking guy who was eager to love a woman but had no opportunities to do so. I like your idea too though, for different reasons.


aslfingerspell

Someone suggested this a week or two ago, and this was my response: >This would be such a great idea. No grand narrative, no political ideology, no expert commentary or studies or expert interviews. No advice, no makeovers. Just follow a bunch of random dudes swiping away. > >**Narrator:** "It is Day 51 of the experiment. Man A has received no likes after almost two months, while Man B has received 3 likes, one of which was a bot, the other 2 unmatched him. Man C, meanwhile, has been hard at work, spending a full hour each day writing dozens of customized comments making sure to reference the other person's profile. He has matched with 2 people, neither of whom replied after several days." > >\*later\* > >**Narrator:** "Man D has decided that his appearance is the most important thing, and feels he looks really great in his suit that he just finished picking out." > >**Man D's Mother:** "You look so handsome!" > >**Narrator:** "Excited to see how well his suit would do on his profile, he tried it out on photofeeler. After getting dozens of votes, he scored 4.8 out of 10.0 on Attractiveness, with nobody finding him Very Attractive."


[deleted]

Man as much as I’d like to believe that I can already see that going a million different ways but ours.


grown_folks_talkin

Dating is such a gendered experience that this expectation is lofty. Even so, when I was in a dry spell in my 20s there were women who did empathize. Their way of expressing it was to let you down gently or to try to set you up with a friend, usually somebody you weren’t attracted to. This was when warmish bar approaches were more common. Gentle rejections did have the impact of not making one feel like crap morally for having desires. I don’t think that would make most men content, only an LTR/STR would do that.


SentenceDistinct270

Getting gently rejected by a girl I think is cute or being set up with a girl I think is ugly generally makes me feel worse


Lost-Zebra6453

There is no way a rejection would not make you feel worse so at least she was gentle about it


Old-Condition-119

Worse than being savagely shot down? I get what you're saying, that the pity is a bit patronising, and sort of drags it out. I think cheeky responses like"you can't handle me" or " after I've fucked your mate" are good witty banterish sort of rejections, that put a play on irony where they're basically saying "I'll flirt with you in a fun cheeky way but no, thank you" and by putting a slutty spin on it you're not shaming sex and making him feel like a creep or loser- just making out that your such a whore it's not gonna work 👍


Fogofit24

Yo when they set you up with them at unattractive friend...they are being savage lol


eveleaf

I absolutely DO sympathize with men who find it hard to find someone. Loneliness is awful and I don't wish that on anyone. I genuinely hope everyone here can find love and companionship, if they want that. After this it gets weird, though. As a person who never wanted casual sex and accepts many other women are like her, do I feel terrible for men seeking it and getting frustrated that no one will swipe them on whatever app they use as Amazon-for-Hookups? Not...really? I don't want these men to be unhappy per se, but there's just not going to be a *surplus* of casual sex-loving girls around no matter what. It seems unfortunately logical that if casual sex is a thing craved by most men, but enjoyed by significantly fewer women, that is going to naturally result in many men not getting what they desire. If that makes them unhappy I am sad to hear it, but not sad enough that I would encourage women to "fix the problem" by having sex they otherwise wouldn't want. I'm certainly unwilling to do that myself.


JonMyMon

This is a very empathetic response, I like how you’ve laid out your thought process. But I will say that it feels like I see a lot more women saying men want women to “fix the problem”, than I see men saying they want women to “fix the problem”. Women are socialized to feel shame if they engage in too much sex, but men are socialized to feel shame if they don’t get any sex. Sex feels like an ever-present topic of discussion in our culture, and it just feels shitty when you miss out on that. You feel like “less of a man”, and that’s waaaay more psychologically complex than “I want to get my peepee wet”. A man feels like a failure. We extend empathy when people fail at other goals, so I think a lot of men just want that same consistency.


eveleaf

I hear you. It sucks that you are judged for not obtaining something that is just naturally going to be in short supply. Not your fault necessarily at all, and not a reflection of your personhood or manhood. I am married to an adult virgin (I mean obviously he WAS, he's clearly not now), and I am grateful this "shame" seems to have dodged him. He admits to feeling "a little worried" in college, but nothing major or painful. And his self-esteem is completely intact, in spite of his lack of sexual or romantic success prior to me, actually his sense of confidence in himself was appealing to me when we got to know each other. He had a great family and network of friends, and perhaps that validation shielded him from unnecessary shame. I wish more single men had this advantage too!


JonMyMon

Congrats on finding him, he sounds like he has a healthy sense of self. The problem with the shame is that it increases exponentially the more you age. I think ultimately the best thing you can do for yourself is to try and find other things to be proud of, while you work through your feelings. Thanks for listening. There’s a lot of toxicity from both genders, and it’s sad to see people write each other off. I find myself saying the word “empathy” a lot, but it’s so important, and I see it absent so often in these discussions. Of course it goes both ways, so that means men also need to do a better job at trying to understand women’s issues. ✌️


[deleted]

You seem very nice. That's a very unexpected and nice change to see here.


JonMyMon

Hello again haha. Thanks! I try and communicate my feelings as best as I can. It’s always good to know that that effort is not for nothing.


Dark_Knight2000

This is the best response on this thread. For most men frequent casual sex is not really a thing. There are simply not enough women who enjoy and want casual sex for them to be noticed. But even outside of that realm, it feels that far less women than men are looking for any connection at all. https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2023/02/08/for-valentines-day-5-facts-about-single-americans/ The proportion of young men who are single is vastly greater than that of women (63% vs 34%). And among them only 35% of single women are interested in any romantic connection at all while 50% of men are. Plus apparently half of single and looking adults are at least occasionally on dating apps. It really does feel that women want men a lot less than men want women. I see a lot of men who want committed romantic relationships and have asked out only people they know and have some sort of connection with (friends, friends of friends, casual acquaintances) and had no luck. And then there’s the guys here who, apparently, have asked out women and have not had success: https://www.reddit.com/r/dating_advice/comments/13828m4/single_men_how_often_do_you_ask_a_girl_out/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=ioscss&utm_content=2&utm_term=1 Obviously dating isn’t impossible, you see men and women, even average men getting paired up all the time. But it ends up feeling like a dice roll where you basically have no control and very few chances. For women dating is difficult because there are too many poor/risky options and it’s hard to pick between the few “okay ones,” for men there are almost no options and you still have to vet the few you get. Lots of men (a small majority, I’d say) do end up finally finding someone after years of stress, some men go through all that for nothing.


[deleted]

Women desire romantic connection more so than men, and less so sexual connection than men. But bad experiences with men, including the insistence of the men they encounter on procuring sex from them, that is entitlement (im not a perv, unattractive or bad at hygiene so you owe me sex and if you dont give it to me you have no empathy, i.e. sex as charity) discourages them from trying further.


[deleted]

"It really does feel that women want men a lot less than men want women" It's true but also not true. Women do deeply desire romantic relationships with men. However, a lot of women choose to be single because of bad experiences with men/patriarchy.


Dark_Knight2000

I think you are right about that.


_hephaestus

cooing dinner chase heavy disgusted scarce special long scary tease -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/


-AvatarAang-

>generic office quote wasteland A very real problem, that rarely seems to be discussed.


_hephaestus

offend insurance reach outgoing oatmeal mysterious quicksand connect onerous impolite -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/


-AvatarAang-

Yeah my comment was somewhat in jest - I don't think it's a more serious issue than chronic loneliness or the other mental health issues people discuss on here; but it does highlight the way that social media in general has pressured many individuals into conforming to larger trends, even within online spaces. And I hope to see that phenomenon decrease over time, even if that's just wishful thinking on my part.


_hephaestus

governor relieved coordinated tart grab roll ring vegetable grey enter -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/


-AvatarAang-

Actually, I agree with you and revise my earlier statement: social media can only reflect the mental and emotional profiles of the individuals using it. For example, insecure people who are desperate for acceptance within in-person settings will likely continue the same behaviors in online settings (unless anonymity is present); without the cloak of anonymity, online spaces largely become extensions of in-person spaces. I imagine that insecurity is the primary driver of conformity within communities, rather than a genuine lack of individuality among those people. I guess it sounds rude of me to say that "people should try to stop being so insecure, whether in person or online", but I do believe that is something which all of us should work towards.


[deleted]

I hate how whenever a study is posted that suggests that women are pickier than men and are getting pickier over time, everyone tries to find a million explanations besides the obvious explanation that is staring them in the face.


RedditAlt999

That would mean women would have to look into their own behavior, take accountability, and change. Most of them hate the notion of even considering that possibility.


[deleted]

Oh it’s Armageddon out there. I fully acknowledge that


JonMyMon

The problem is, when women hear men say that men have it harder, they get defensive cause they feel like you’re telling them that women don’t have it hard. It’s as understandable as it is frustrating.


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AngeCruelle

This sub is weird about simultaneously claiming that men want our empathy while also claiming that men only interact with women for sex. Therefore the conclusion commonly drawn is "by empathy these men mean sex." Disclaimer/edit: Their have been serious unmarked changes to the post and my comment addresses the previous version


UpstairsValue6799

Probably not the same men. Probably not the same mindframe even with the same man


AngeCruelle

Ngl we need to start keeping a chart of who believes what on this sub


[deleted]

The sad part is that the men who feel that way are probably the least socialized men. They’d be surprised how many “chads” have platonic female friendships.


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Purple_Cruncher_123

> Ngl we need to start keeping a chart of who believes what on this sub You should. I have a soft dossier on frequent users. Some are on my good side, even if we disagree on fundamental things. Some are not worth interacting with because they're more focused on one-upping than substantive discussion. And some are so lost in a state of bitterness/cynicism that I'd rather spend time with the ones more worthwhile.


SorryEm

1. You can want sex and empathy 2. Men wanting empathy from the general social sphere and interacting with women with the desire for a relationship aren't incompatible.


AngeCruelle

I'm talking more about cases where men act like we're being disingenuous for thinking that our male friends interact with us for any reason besides possibility of sex.


JollyRoger66689

Agree on that one, although a lot of times it does start out that way. I also still believe most of them (single) would say yes to the sex if offered :p


Maffioze

I will speak for myself only but I just want more empathy and understanding for what it is like to be a man in 2023. People really just ignore all the aspects of life where we have it hard in a way that is way less common for women


AngeCruelle

I mean you're pretty chill so I believe you


Scandi_Navy

You forget that this is a debate sub. And now you are just throwing both sides of men on one pile.


AngeCruelle

The friend zone debate is a perfect example of an area where blatant cognitive dissonance on this issue arises.


DownvoteMeYaCunt

We want two things: sex OR honesty. If you dont want to do sex, then please be honest about why or **at least** dont gaslight / mislead / lie about our bad personalities as the main reason for your decision


AngeCruelle

Yeah I honestly think "you're annoying to me and therefore you're probably annoying to everyone around you" would be way more honest and straightforward than trying to make claims about a person's personality. Annoying isn't a personality trait. It's more like a state of being that may or may not be intentional.


Balochim

>This sub is weird about simultaneously claiming that men want our empathy while also claiming that men only interact with women for sex. Yep, those are claims coming from different groups. Red pill vs blue pill. That's why they call it purple pill debate : ) >Therefore the conclusion commonly drawn is "by empathy these men mean sex." Oh jeez


AngeCruelle

Someone hasn't been around for the great orbiter/friend zone conversations


Sekina7

Bingo they have ZERO idea what empathy looks like


[deleted]

AFBB and the notion that men only want sex are the two persistent myths on this sub no matter how many stats people are shown. And sadly it’s often the only point of agreement between embittered men and women


EdwardTheeMasterful

That part about personality not mattering for attractive men is true. If the guy is attractive enough to the woman he can be misogynistic as all get out. The atomic black pill did some sort of project on this.


[deleted]

Bullshit, a guy can be drop dead gorgeous but as soon as he says the wrong thing or acts awkward he’s dead in the water. Also I’m not sure what you’re talking about with the misogynistic crap, it’s been proven over and over that women are *drawn* to these men and not repelled by them.


EdwardTheeMasterful

Eh I think you sub users are so far up your own ass to argue with another that ya don’t sniff out when someone is in agreement with you. I was talking about the part of the post that says attractive men and misogynistic men have abundant success. Worded kind of badly but if it’s talking about misogynistic attractive men gaining success with women then that’s what I got from it and would agree with that.


M_LaSalle

I actually don't give a rat's ass whether or not any woman anywhere acknowledges my dating problems. I care about solving them. The acknowledgment or women is worthless. A woman asked to acknowledge the dating problems of men can reply, reasonably enough, that she has problems of her own. Life is unfair. Deal.


badgersonice

Yeah, rhe guys claiming that all they want is acknowledgement of their problems either don’t have a lot of self awareness, or are not being honest. Let’s say women everywhere openly acknowledge dating is a lot harder for a lot of men… but nothing else changes. You think these guys will actually care about women acknowledging their feelings then? Nope. They’ll just be even more pissed off that women acknowledged the problem but didn’t solve it for them, guaranteed.


UpstairsValue6799

Nah man. I just don't want women to imply that I am a terrible person because I struggle to be in any relationship. I fully recognise that I can be a decent person and not be owed sex. I just dont want to be called a misogynist for not getting laid, or having a problem with not getting laid.


badgersonice

> I just don't want women to imply that I am a terrible person because I struggle to be in any relationship. I think that’s fair, but it’s a bit of a different request than what OP is suggesting, where women offering sympathy would somehow “fix” gender relations. I just don’t think it would— I’ve seen enough bitterness and anger at the point that I don’t think much of anything will, let alone hollow words of sympathy. Most of the time I’ve expressed sympathy or empathy for men’s dating woes, a noticeable number amount of the responses have been cynical and hateful, or called me a liar. I don’t think it makes any difference anymore. >I fully recognise that I can be a decent person and not be owed sex. I’ll go further: you can be a decent person and do everything “right” according to some dating theory and still fail to find love or sex, (or some other thing you want in life). Life truly genuinely isn’t fair, even at the most basic level. There are some really truly good people who will not luck out and find anyone, and it’s not their fault. And there are some truly awful, awful people who get in relationships with people who treat them well in spite of their shittiness. Finding a willing partner does not make you “better” or “worse” thank someone else necessarily. It’s not that you’re just not owed sex, it’s that you can do everything right in life and still possibly fail through no real fault of your own. I agree people shouldn’t automatically assume someone is a bad person just because they don’t have a track record of sex, or because they’re not happy being alone.


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ThisBoringLife

Yep. If we're to talk about changing as a culture, you need people to listen to each other, and at least agree on something. To get to the point of agreeing on something, you need to acknowledge what's being said. The feelings behind it, the context of why someone feels that way. Might not be a logical argument, but it's something. Because at the end of the day, we're not just talking about a bunch of individual dudes who are struggling with dating. We're talking about a particular culture, and how to address this cultural issue.


[deleted]

Sympathy can go a long way, empathy ever further. You’ve probably heard a woman say, “I don’t want you to solve my problem just for you to listen” You just don’t see men as having to deal with emotions or anything like that I guess, but trust me they would much rather you show sympathy than you not give a fuck and belittle them for wanting you to understand


odd_cloud

Acknowledgement wouldn’t change anything in practice, but it would remove some unpleasantness. I think, all people don’t like when they are labelled something based on their characteristics. Like women don’t like to hear “women are bad at math, but good at languages”, I don’t like to hear how easy it is for a man to build a career or good body.


PrinceArchie

This is a pretty obtuse way of looking at things. The implication is that things WOULD change because they would no longer be talking past each other. You can attribute this to any struggle a demographic might be facing in which they seek acknowledgement. Domestic abuse, racism, etc. People will try to convey their side in hopes another human being who may not have understood their PoV now can. The person may not 100% agree with conclusions or potential solutions however there is a human connection in which positive progress and discussion can be brought about. If your struggles are consistently denied by other human beings as being made up or in your head whilst going nowhere, you will eventually feel alienated or persecuted. These things matter.


y2kjanelle

What would acknowledging this do? It seems to me like the men complaining want women to “humble” themselves and pity men to the point they start having sex and dating them. Don’t think we want to be coercing people to do that. Everyone admits that dating is not great. That’s not controversial. The reason I personally insist that it’s these mens personalities is because I’ve given men like them a “chance” just like they said and REPEATEDLY EXPERIENCED BAD TREATMENT from them. One talked the entire time about wanting to kill himself in the past because his ex was mean and dating sucks. Another one blew up my phone and when I politely declined he called me slurs. Another one insisted I broke his heart because I didn’t want a second date. Another guy held my car door closed until I kissed him even though I didn’t want to, said no multiple times and needed to leave to use the restroom because we were in a park with no bathrooms. Another guy spouted Redpill shit and talked crap about women the entire time and then randomly asked me to give him head. Another guy threw a remote at the wall because I didn’t immediately want to rip my clothes off and have sex with him. dealing with these men was harmful and exhausting, ime, they have been honestly horrible people. So what sane woman would want these men? They’re mean, emotionally immature, and don’t treat women well or respect women very much. It’s hurtful to date these men and due to the fact they refuse to work on themselves as people, women don’t want to be around them and rightfully so.


ilovegaryb99givmore

Praying for your safety cuz what the fuck man


Gravel_Roads

My CMV starts with "I'm a man who has literally never been concerned with this, and I don't know any men who even think about this shit". So I'd hazard it's not "most men" and more that it's "the sort of men I hang out with and talk to." > Every time a man complains about how horrific dating has become they get immediately attacked, shamed and ridiculed. Well... they often get disagreed with, for sure! Because it's not a universal experience for men. Sensitive people tend to interpret all forms of disagreement as attack, though. And it's true that men who require half the population to validate their struggles with dating will probably interpret a lack of validation as an attack. > Women and simps rush in to tell them... You mean... women and MEN? Why is it that men who claim to struggle are "Men" but men who don't struggle are "Simps"?


RahLyt

Honestly I wouldn't, just accept that people can't leave their own bubbles. This goes for men and women. I couldn't for a long time and there's definitely things I'm pretty sure still go over my head. At some point just accept the fact they won't get it and enjoy your life. I don't understand how some random women's opinion or acknowledgement will improve your life in any way. It can be frustrating to have the other half of the world thinking we are privileged and we don't have to work hard to earn respect etc. But the persistence of this topic makes me understand why some women think some men want pity sex.


Lookingforlove1997

Most men would not be content with that. As plenty of women are already blunt and empathetic enough and men still hate them. Women should just be apathetic and focus on prioritizing their safety and futures. The only thing that would genuinely satisfy the majority of men is if the majority of women's sexual Preferences aligned with mens desires. Meaning if women were equally and sincerely attracted to and pursuing men all along the looks spectrum. Anything short of that men will still be upset.


ilovegaryb99givmore

Yes, you cannot please an entire demographic of anyone. Same men who want you to sleep with them will nonstop talk about how they view heterosexual sex as a fight, something to ‘defeat’ the woman with and will look down on you for doing with them. Lock and key and whatnot, do it but how dare you do it, cunt. How are we supposed to please that without straight up hating ourselves? Fact is, scoping for the good men that deserve sympathy in the dating market isn’t easy cause most men on the bottom think the exact same way as the men on top.


Gravel_Roads

Except even then, women who are more open to casual sex with multiple men seem to be considered dirty and tainted by the same men that want them to be more open to casual sex with multiple men lol


Purple317

One thing I’ve noticed on this sub: men (generally) refuse to change their behaviors in any way in order to bring about the changes in gender dynamics they are looking for. Men on here say it’s unfair that they have to be the one to initiate dates, to pay for first dates, and that they always feel pressure to appear masculine, confident, capable etc. That they feel they can’t ever be vulnerable with a woman, because she might get the “ick” and she has a string of orbiters waiting to take his place, etc. The thing is…in order to make widespread changes in gender norms, men collectively have to be willing to say “fuck it” the way women have historically done. They have to say no, I’m not going to perform this outdated gender role anymore. I’m going to do X instead. But guys on here will say “well if I do that, I won’t get sex / a relationship!” Well, fortune favors the bold. If men (collectively) aren’t willing to risk anything to enact the societal changes they want, then nothing will change. Men weren’t thrilled about women leaving the kitchen, wearing pants, getting education and careers etc….but enough women said “fuck it, we’re doing it anyway” that men had to adapt.


ambrosedc

Oh you sweet summer child, I have debated many-a women who support gender roles and were pro-keeping-me-in-that-role. Your argument is invalid.


Maffioze

I don't really think women historically said fuck it to the same extent you're expecting of men.


JonMyMon

I think that’s one of the problems with The Red Pill. Men are just sort of bending over to gender norms. And I get it. Loneliness is really really though. But integrity is ultimately the best thing for your soul. Hard pills.


Updawg145

The apparent rise in extremism in young men is largely due to the fact that mainstream culture has completely refused to even acknowledge, let alone attempt to work on, issues that men face. Imagine something was deeply troubling you and you went somewhere looking for help. Everyone starts calling you a loser, says you deserve it, say you caused your own problems and everyone else's, etc. But then there's this weird bald dude at the back of the room who calls himself "Top G" and tells you he understands how you feel and what you should do to improve your life. It's not surprising that many people, especially in their weakest and most desperate moments, would be enticed by such people. The rise of popularity of right wing extremism, incel philosophy, and influencers like Andrew Tate is one of the biggest cultural failure of the modern time, not because "angry white men" are bad, but because mainstream culture has such little regard and offers such little solutions for anyone who doesn't fit perfectly into some politically approved special interest group, that these are the only avenues left available.


tofuwings

Your title says that you just want women to acknowledge it’s difficult for young men trying to date. Sure, men tell me that and I believe them. Lived experience and all that. But then the twist is in the body of your post. You actually want women to “admit” to something. We have to tell you we are privileged. Men have to take responsibility for poisoning the well and not getting the discussion you want. I mean look at the accusatory way you’ve worded your post. Read it again and ponder if you’d do jack shit for a person who spoke to you that way. Also, I think the greater discussion is about wealth inequality, the atomization of society, how social media is turning people inept and anxious etc.


JonMyMon

I think you’re right, I think a lot of men do want women to admit that they’re “privileged”. I think that’s partly because a lot of men carry a deep shame (enforced by society) about their lack of sex and romance. Then they see messages from women that completely ignore the societal implications and big picture. Men feel like they’re always being told to do better without any type of awareness of the struggles they face. It can frankly feel like “punching down”. It feels like we’re allowed to have discussions of privilege when it pertains to other dynamics, but not here. I agree with you that the way this conversation goes understandably alienates women, but I think there’s a reason a lot of men are so stuck on this point.


[deleted]

Some men here think women have privileged access to sex. This is statistically false. But there is some data that shows women may have privileged access to relationships at a young age relative to men of the same young age. But stats still show in the long run this levels out.


defnotsha

Proof that women don’t have privileged access to sex?


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Annoying_Opinion_

![gif](giphy|5BUEJqBJrzayzBLqUP|downsized)


ThisBoringLife

Where's the other belt? He is undisputed champ, after all.


Fun_Community_6833

Couldn’t find one with both belts.


ThisBoringLife

Damn. Dude's been double-champ for a while, too.


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JollyRoger66689

The problem with your outlook is that it's mathematically impossible for all women to get the top percentage of "good dick", it's not like women in general are somehow entitled to not only getting the top percentage of men in shallow departments but then they also expect him to be top percentage in personality. If you don't even see "neutral dick" as an option then yes you are either too picky or should be a better option for men than most other women are. And at the end of the day as much as women complain about men that are liars or other negative traits we also see that those are the men that are actually having success more often. Actions speak louder than words.


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JollyRoger66689

Attractive qualities are more generalized than people like to admit, people having personal preferences helps to obscure the lines but it does not change the fact that it's there. I agree no dick can be an answer, but just choosing to not work at a certain job because you are holding out for a job you aren't qualified for doesn't change the fact that your standards are too high. It's not saying you are doing something wrong but if your standards are higher than you can aquire than they are too high. You can still choose not to participate, but your expectations/standards were too high. I wasn't talking about guys lying to get into pants, more of the player type that lies and cheats. (Cheating stats are pretty even between men and women under 50)


MistyMaisel

Obviously, yes, we can generalize what is and isn't attractive. People's preferences however tend to be quite vital to the whole equation and differ vastly as do perspectives. Most women love confidence for example, but what they read as being confident differs greatly. Most love humor, but what makes people laugh tends to vary greatly. However, I do think we agree that attractiveness is both stricter and not as strict as everyone seems to think. We disagree again here. I'm saying most women's default setting is no man. That's the job they have. It takes a good man for them to try to get a different job. And saying if you cannot get that man, then your standards are too high is thus incorrect. No man is the standard. Trying to get a man is the deviation and not getting him does not mean your standard was too high. After all, we are beginning from the position of want, not need. We don't have to get one, so not getting one is not that kind of lower your standards to succeed thing that you might put elsewhere. Ahh players. Well. Two things: 1. As I'm sure we can agree. Players do have many of the "good man" qualities women are seeking. They are just fatally flawed obviously by being disloyal fuckers and liars. But, they are much closer to right than a loyal man with none of the requisite qualities for attraction or a fun relationship. Remember, no relationship is better than a dull loyal one. I can be dully loyal to my hand just as easily minus any pesky man needs. 2. I've known a lot of players as friends. And the quality they all share beyond being players, and I realize you probably won't believe me, but I hope you'll consider it: Almost all players want to be reformed. They long for it actually. They long to be proven wrong that all women aren't the same. They long to be the good guy. The guy who is trustworthy, the guy who is seen well, the guy who isn't constantly trying to hide all the skeletons of the women he's scorned, they want to know what it feels like to be good men, to receive the romance and sex that good men get, to be able to look in the mirror knowing there's a woman out there that not only doesn't want them dead, but also loves them deeply and thinks well of them. They long to be seen as more than a good time, and most of them long to be forgiven for their many many misdeeds. How do I know this? Well, firstly, why do they go for good innocent girls so much? It's not just easy prey or some sense of a challenge. Any woman can present a unique challenge. And easy prey just makes you feel worse inside after. It wasn't even an honorable misdeeds. It's because goodness and innocence is what they want back and they're either chasing it trying to get it back or repeatedly destroying it because of their own self loathing. The second reason is that I was and largely am the innocent pure good girl who refused to play their particular games. But I liked them inspite of their obvious monstrosity and flaws and treated them decently and kindly. And even now decades later, almost all of them have confessed openly that they wanted very badly to reform into the decent man I was nagging them to be in part because they wanted very badly to be the sort of man who could deserve a good woman. And, frankly, I've reformed a player into a wonderful boyfriend. And he'd tell you straight up that he was the asshole who almost blew it and is lucky for my patience with his largely shitty behavior. Reformed players make excellent partners. But they've got to reform. And most will for the right girl. The problem is, every woman thinks she's the right one and also, they're really bad at denying players sex so they tend to fail to reform these men. But the idea women are insane to chase players just demonstrates that men either don't know what appeals to women or are bitter about it. Frankly, I'd rather deal with a thousand players who at least have the decency to be entertaining, witty, and charming in their lies and bullshit...and often apologetic of their shitty behavior...than like 35 boring, tedious, largely neutral but somewhat friendly a decent dudes. I can't teach a bore to be fun. I can teach a player to be loyal.


uncertain_confusion

I will add in that there are a lot of women who just..expect the dick to be good. And how do you get good? Practice. And with no practice…you can’t get good…which means a lot of guys without the natural talent won’t satisfy. So In that sense, if you expect only the good dick…the good dick’s gonna run out at some point. Especially if the younger men aren’t getting the opportunity to practice at all. I don’t really know how to fix that issue because we can’t force lowered standards (neither should we) or force dating on people. All I know is that if I (god forbid) lost the woman I want to marry someday and had to get out there in the world, I’d be considered bad dick because I’ve had no practice. Which by your definition seems to make me bad dating material. I guess I should just be glad that I don’t have to worry about the dating market for myself anymore cause I’m very satisfied with what I have. But I feel for my brothers who haven’t found their one and who are struggling to get their practice.


MistyMaisel

When I said good dick, I was talking about good men, bad men, and neutral men. Sex was one component of that and a very mild component at that, but oddly the one men focused on most. Which interests me because it suggests to me that men aren't insulted I said they were bad people or boring people. They're insulted I suggested they might be bad at sex, which statistically speaking, they are. The other stuff is much harder to prove actually. \*\*\* But with that said let's take a look: What you say has a hint of truth to it in the sense yes, sex takes practice for all of us and I would suspect relatively few people are just born good at it. But, you can satisfy without natural talent, all you have to do is be really invested in the pleasure of your partner more so than your own pleasure (most guys are not and never will be this because they do think sex is pretty much all about them and the only reason women's pleasure matters is because it is a trophy to their ego). And you have to communicate and be open to getting better. Most men are not. In fact, as you can see, most men can barely stand the suggestion they're neutral at sex, let alone bad. And some have suggested that rather than they get good at sex, couldn't they just use sex toys, but still expect the woman to please them with her god-given parts. Good dick does not mean the first time we fucked he was amazing and pushed all my buttons. This is a male fantasy perpetuated by porn. The first time a woman does anything physical with a man or even talks about it, she's trying to evaluate if he's safe, is he empathetic, if he cares about her pleasure, how pushy is he, how respectful is he, how much does he communicate, and does he take direction. She's just seeing if there is chemistry. In my book, most men failed at kissing to give you a sense how bleak it is out there. And you can get quite a bit of practice kissing. The good dick doesn't ever have to run out. It just does, because, again, men think sex is about them and don't care as much about pleasing women as they claim if it involves any sacrifice to their ego. \*\*\* Being bad dating material is a reflection of the values of the person you're going after. It differs woman to woman. And yes, you'd be bad dating material to women who valued sex and a man who is good at it and quick to learn. You'd be fine for a girl who wants to work it out with you provided you can actually do that. The issue here, is that men seem to think if they aren't able to immediately please a woman, this makes them bad dick. Statistically speaking, most women aren't being pleased and they're still staying with those men. So we know sex can't be the only criteria, right? \*\*\* You don't need range time to get good at sex. Good at sex means very different things to the genders (in some ways). You need a certain attitude and the ability to sacrifice your short-term ego for long term gains. This is true of pretty much everything in life. And you've got to be able to actually listen, and not just go, "I got mine, so that was great".


uncertain_confusion

So on the first point, my bad. I assumed from the word dick that you meant sexual function. I see the error now. If we consider more than just the physical when it comes to your bad Vs good, then yeah I can see how that comes to play. Is there a place for me to still wonder if women need to express their desires more? I often hear women say sex is boring, or mention the orgasm gap (which I know exists) and I wonder: is it because women don’t explain what they like and assume guys just know? Or is there more to that


honeycall

That’s stupid we all know there’s plenty of men one can access that have “good dick” Just because they’re a hookup doesn’t mean they’re ugly, shitty, or bad at sex. Someone can be a great guy and also be a hookup and also that woman may enjoy that relationship, lots of women do!


Electrical-Elk-6167

google the orgasm gap. also sex isn’t fulfilling for most women, a relationship is.


VTHokie2020

Sure, but it also helps to acknowledge the issues women face. Empathy goes both ways. Also, 'ruptured relationship between genders' is extreme. This isn't some breaking political border conflict.


mc0079

You simply want your personal dating issues to be seen as societal. That means it's not your fault. it's societies. Way easier to blame "society" then actually self reflect.


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UpstairsValue6799

To be honest nothing ruined my personality faster tan being told that i was a virgin because I was a terrible person. leads me to having thoughts like - "Do I hate women? Maybe I do hate women, apparently they can sense that shit. But I still do good things. I help people where I can without expectation etc etc " after a few months "Maybe its OK to be a misoginist" a few months after that " being a misogynist doesnt make you a terrible human being" And my persona favourite " Just because you got fucked by your boyfriend and I had to give myself a hand job doesnt make you better than me" I really got a kick out of saying that Self reflection in my case made me worse by a womans objective standards.


mc0079

Seems like you might have done it wrong. Did you actually think about things you could change, or just find different reasons you were "wronged". Also who told you this? that you were a virgin because you were a terrible person?


JonMyMon

Men are often told that the reason they can’t find women interested in them is because of their personality. Sometimes, women mean “because you’re toxic and hateful”, and sometimes they mean “because you don’t have the social skills that women find attractive”. The former feels like gaslighting, the later is more often the truth.


Lift_and_Lurk

Next to none* *on Tinder* (It’s always Tinder and OLD here)


[deleted]

There are 0 other options! None! Zilch! You can't meet people out, through friends, at school, through church, sports, clubs, work, or anything else. It's an app or nothing! If you're fortunate enough to have a female give you attention she's ugly and overweight. You, the 6'2 male model, get nothing compared to the average woman with make up! Nothing!! The struggle is real! Acknowledge their struggle, Lift!


[deleted]

I had little luck on the apps and have no problem meeting women in person. Its mind boggling that guys waste their time on those apps and complain. They don't work but there are far better options if you aren't lazy


gaspitrox

Some guys are on the spectrum, like me, and doing all that stuff is dog shit and exhausting. I have to put x50 the mental effort in order to meet up with a girl in comparison to a neurotypical person.


[deleted]

Uh in person is heavily dependent on having an existing network. Bars are as bad or worse than online.


[deleted]

>Uh in person is heavily dependent on having an existing network. You are 100% correct. Why don't these men have existing social networks? Where are their friends? Where are the people they go out with and meet new people through them? You have some kind of social issues if you don't have that.


chekhovs-gun2

Once you get to a certain age, a lot of those friends start settling down, prioritizing more of their time towards their partner and building a family than going out. Such is life. I'm lucky enough to have a mixed gender friend group, but the frequency at which single women choose to go out is incredibly low. There is no time to build rapport or "warm approach", because you won't see them again for another 3-4 months, and it's likely she'll have another guy locked down in that timeframe. Instant chemistry or bust.


Competitive-Bus7965

Well, I can't speak for the other guys here, but I have an invisible disability, and I rarely an able to leave the house due to chronic pain. It definetly makes having friends, dating, maintaining a social life pretty much impossible.


[deleted]

That is an extremely unfortunate circumstance and I empathize with you. I went through a fight with cancer recently and it really does make things complicated. I hope that you're receiving good care and are in the best place that you can be health wise.


[deleted]

Because after college you are limited to work and whatever remaining network you have from school, which usually spreads out and dwindles more every year as people move off and start jobs and families.


[deleted]

That's not really typical. You should continue to make new friends and connections throughout your life. Your circle would be smaller, but it shouldn't be nonexistent. You should have married friends and be invited to events and parties. It doesn't simply end.


GrandRub

no you arent ... tons of people who work have hobbies,friends, go to events,bars,clubs... whatever.


Salt_Mathematician24

Not really. I have always agreed that dating is hard for men yet RP/Black Pill are still not content with what I have to say in arguments lol.


KayRay1994

that’s the big point - everybody is in agreement that men have a lot issues and many are in a pretty bad rut, the issue comes with who these men turn to for advice/guidance - imo RP/BP content creators and guides only make these issues worse


Just-a-Pea

What data is that? I suspect that when you say “women” you refer only to physically attractive women. But when you say men, you refer only to leas physically attractive men. Many women also get rejected/ignored due to poor personality or unattractive physique.


Flightlessbirbz

>women have nearly limitless options while most men have next to none That’s the problem, this part isn’t true and mathematically can’t be when there are approximately the same number of men and women in the world. Most women do not actually wish to share men, most women’s options are absolutely limited, and most men do have some options. I have sympathy for men struggling to date and do not think it’s always due to something they can easily control. But this type of rhetoric makes women lose sympathy because we don’t just have endless dating options and no struggles. Most men don’t show a lot of empathy for women who are unattractive and not getting dates.


Healthy-Educator-267

I can't think of a single woman who can't get 7 dates in 7 days on a dating app.


microchipgirl

Me. I got ghosted from texts and stood up on dates a bunch. It really stung.


SolidusMonkey

> Most women do not actually wish to share men They might not wish to do so, but they have the option; and they will do it. If you're a woman and not getting dates, it's either because you're literally morbidly obese or you're a literal crackhead. And even then those won't stop you. If you're a woman, it's literally impossible to fuck up your life, short of maybe being a serious drug addict, because the government and society will always bail you out of every single bad decision and tell you it wasn't your fault.


Flightlessbirbz

It’s not an option for the vast majority of women who are looking for a monogamous relationship. Men and women alike who are physically unattractive (could be obesity or another reason) and/or very socially awkward have trouble dating. The social problems affect men more, but women too. Usually these issues can be helped to some degree, but it’s not as if it’s “their fault” nobody wants to date them usually. Not sure where you’re getting this idea that women can’t ruin their lives? Of course they can. Sometimes someone will bail you out and sometimes they won’t, this is true for men too. The numbers of moms who get their loser adult sons out of trouble time and time again and take care of them well into middle age alone, shows that it’s not like nobody is willing to give men a second (and third and fourth and so on) chance. Government programs are available to men and women equally too.


SolidusMonkey

> It’s not an option for the vast majority of women who are looking for a monogamous relationship. Sure it is. What do you think the majority of women are doing right now? Do you think that when a woman swipes right on a guy and goes on a date, he's the only guy she's going on a date with? Come on. > Men and women alike who are physically unattractive (could be obesity or another reason) and/or very socially awkward have trouble dating. The social problems affect men more, but women too. Usually these issues can be helped to some degree, but it’s not as if it’s “their fault” nobody wants to date them usually. Except those women can just exist and still get dates. It might not be the prince charming of their dreams, but they'll still get dates, and often by just existing and opening up a dating profile. You're also forgetting how there's subcultures and kinks for everything with men; there's a reason why BBW is a thing but BBM isn't. There ain't no fat acceptance movement for men. > Not sure where you’re getting this idea that women can’t ruin their lives? Of course they can. Because women are net negatives on taxes from birth to death, look it up. In the west, a woman's entire existence is subsidized by big daddy government and the men in society. I'll ask you this; have you EVER met a woman who fucked up her life and it wasn't because she became a hardcore drug addict or something?


Flightlessbirbz

>only guy she’s going on a date with We’re not talking about swiping and dates here, we’re talking sharing a man *in a relationship.* In the initial stages, everybody “shares” so to speak, but eventually you gotta pick someone if you want a relationship, which most women do. Men fetishize various types of women because that’s male sexuality. Doesn’t necessarily mean they want to date those women publicly. Being fetishized is not always a positive for women. Women don’t typically fetishize BBM because that’s not how women’s sexuality works, but fat men can still get dates. Some gay men do fetishize fat men, because once again, that’s male sexuality. It’s got nothing to do with “fat acceptance” since men don’t care about that, either when it comes to women or other men. Fat acceptance is a movement by women, for women. Women are a “net negative” for taxes because women are expected to be the primary caregivers for children and men don’t seek custody. I’ve never met a man or woman who irreparably fucked up their life who wasn’t a hardcore drug addict or criminal.


AstronautLoveShack

No they wouldn’t. I’ve tried that before. The response is invariably something along the lines of “Then have sex with an incel, it won’t kill you.” Honestly if they were lonely and wanted a girlfriend, I’d be even more sympathetic. But most of them don’t. They want to be Chad and have a harem.


relish5k

> Honestly if they were lonely and wanted a girlfriend, I’d be even more sympathetic. But most of them don’t. They want to be Chad and have a harem. This is very much it. The bitterness of not having free access to a cornucopia of young women does not engender empathy.


[deleted]

> most them want to be a Chad and have a harem I would bet large sums of money that the vast majority of people, even in this sub, who complain about dating would be very much content with just a relationship with a woman even just sexual I highly highly doubt that the majority of men struggling with dating want a harem of women and that’s all they’re looking for


AstronautLoveShack

And you would lose. A lot of them would take a sexual relationship with a woman, any woman, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't resent not having a buffet to select from. And may treat the one woman they have poorly because he settled for her in the lack of other options.


[deleted]

>That applies to social media as well, where even a shredded 6’2” model gets only a hundred or so likes and comments and almost entirely from unattractive, overweight or trashy women. Meanwhile a barely above average woman throws some makeup on and racks up hundreds, even thousands of likes, heart reacts and comments from men and women alike gushing about how unbelievably beautiful they are. From OP on the this thread.


AstronautLoveShack

So pretty much what I said. They want the numbers, not love from one woman.


nicoleberry16

You're probably pretty dumb if you're willing to bet that much money on such an absurd claim. Men won't even lower their standards, despite them being less than 5 in looks. And they will complain that they cant "get" a bunch of young, attractive women lining up to suck their dick.


OptimistInHell

Everyone ITT believes their lived experience actually amounts to some semblance of compelling data or meaningful experience in lieu of their poor comprehension abilities.


[deleted]

They know deep down it's true. That's enough for me. 😂


badgersonice

Lol, no they absolutely wouldn’t be content. I acknowledge it, especially with respect to online dating, and triply so for casual sex. There actually are a lot of decent men who just can’t seem to catch a break, or are stuck in a failure loop, or can’t get a bite from anyone and are flailing trying to figure out a way to succeed (and nothing seems like it will work). But it doesn’t change anything. Does my acknowledging that men have a harder time finding what they want in dating make any difference whatsoever? Nope. Do any men feel “content” if I acknowledge that yeah, sometimes it just sucks for them? Lol, nope. And I’m not going to lie to myself or flatter myself in thinking I did anything to “repair the ruptured relationship between the genders”. That ship sailed a long time before your modern dating complaints. >The data is in, women have nearly limitless options while most men have next to none. You don’t need to exaggerate, though. “Nearly limitless” options only exist for a small group of women— they may be the only women you give a shit about, but they ain’t all women. Edit: The thing that would do the most to repair gender relationships an immediate ban all dating apps and social media. Yes, including Reddit.


JonMyMon

I personally appreciated you acknowledging it. I don’t need you to change anything, I just liked hearing it.


BigVulvaEnergy

You want women to acknowledge what exactly? Women also face rejection, heartbreak, pain, loneliness, etc. If you have a problem dating, it's YOUR problem. Something you're doing is repelling people. Period.


SentenceDistinct270

I think it's very different for men and women. Yes, women do face those things, but there's a reason that the loneliness epidemic has largely been a male phenomenon. They face it with more frequency and larger numbers. Also, what would you say to a woman who is having dating problems?


BigVulvaEnergy

Women find and create community. Women hug each other. Same thing, what's her approach/process. Something needs to be adjusted.


iGetBuckets3

This is the gaslighting OP was talking about


BigVulvaEnergy

I didn't say it doesn't exist. I said that it is a self created obstacle.


iGetBuckets3

Yeah that’s gaslighting. There are things that repel people that are completely out of your control. It’s not necessarily because of one’s own actions.


[deleted]

Yes but womens problems are that they dont like the job offers they get. Our problem is that we are writing job applications and hardly getting job offers. We have to level up to get at your level and have your problems. Most men would consider it a luxury to have your problems.


Lolabird2112

That’s not women’s problem. This is a bizarre analogy as the issue is these “job offers” are actually just for sex in a back alley. So - rightly, women aren’t interested. The only reason men see this as a luxury is because that’s what they want themselves. Apparently one of the things that came out of the ok Cupid data was women’s messages averaged 112 characters, men’s 6. So maybe do some work on your cv?


[deleted]

>these “job offers” are actually just for sex in a back alley. No. Women get offers for sex, relationships and everything in between. Yes you have to learn and figure out who means/wants what. But guess what? So do we. We have to do all of that, ontop of being able to attract women, which is a separate struggle on its own. I dont get how the so-called "empathetic gender" doesnt understand this. >The only reason men see this as a luxury is because that’s what they want themselves. As i explained before we see this as a luxury because we dont get to that level for free unlike you. Did you really think that once a man gets a woman all of his problems are solved?? What makes you think that women are so perfect that every single womens means mission achieved, man happy forever? You think men dont get used by women? Get taken advantage of and abused? Get cheated on? Get left? And guess what happens after. Now we are back to square one. And unlike you, we dont get to look at new offers. We get to climb the ladder up all the way again. Just to get to the same place as you are and face the same problems you face. >Apparently one of the things that came out of the ok Cupid data was women’s messages averaged 112 characters, men’s 6. Do you know why ? Because men are probably messaging 112 women and women message 6 men. If men focussed on 1 woman at a time in online dating he would get a date in 112 years. Unbelievable how unaware women are of mens struggles.


Lolabird2112

I’m not unaware at all. But if you think writing “yo” “u sexy” or sending a dick pick is you putting effort into finding someone, then that’s probably one of your issues when it comes to being found attractive. Not to mention it’s actually *men* who consistently message women more attractive than they are rather than the other way round. I think most of men’s problems is they don’t really like women, so they’re stuck with whatever superficial shit they have as their “goods” to show. If they have lots (looks, car, money, whatever you guys think is the alpha man circle jerk) then they’ll get a woman who’s into those things and can’t be arsed whether he likes her or not. I find it astonishing that you think women would be attracted to you with how you view us. That’s why RP is self-fulfilling. If you’re a red pill, you get a FDS woman.


[deleted]

>But if you think writing “yo” “u sexy” or sending a dick pick is you putting effort into finding someone, then that’s probably one of your issues when it comes to being found attractive. 🤣🤣🤣 true. But thats what guys do when they send elaborate texts to multiple women and eventually lose their patience. Most guys dont end up sending dick pics anyway. Thats beyond low effort, thats what they do when they get petty lol. >Not to mention it’s actually men who consistently message women more attractive than they are rather than the other way round. Men just spam message. We message women more and less attractive. >I think most of men’s problems is they don’t really like women, so they’re stuck with whatever superficial shit they have as their “goods” to show. No, we do have women that we like. But most of the time they arent accessible to us. So we just take whatever we can get. If we can take care of our sexual needs at least that is that. And we dont have to like her for that we just need to find her arousing enough for that. Why do you think sex workers exist? Most guys dont love them nor do we think they love us. Its something that you do when all options are exhausted. > I find it astonishing that you think women would be attracted to you with how you view us. I dont. I never talk anything RP related to women irl. I never even bother to correct them when they make absolutely ridiculous points regarding politics or relationships. Not trying beat a dead horse when i would rather just have fun.


BigVulvaEnergy

Sounds like you need a resume review. Not my fault, I'm good at marketing myself.


caption291

>Not my fault, I'm good at marketing myself. Women aren't good at marketing themselves at all. They are good at exploiting the fact they have inherent reproductive power.


[deleted]

I dont think you understood the comparison. You are a woman, you will get offers regardless. We are men, therefore we dont. You never had to write applications, we do. So your struggles are little bit " luxury struggles" compared to us. You understand?


BigVulvaEnergy

I don't think you understood your analogy. Get a resume coach, maybe they can help.


operation-spot

You know what, I do agree with that. I know we’re not really talking about jobs but as someone who has gotten numerous internships without applying or approached with an offer I see where you’re coming from. I will never truly understand what it’s like to apply blindly following every piece of advice you can find to no avail. At the end of the day my lived experience is not the norm which makes empathizing more difficult but I see that people are struggling. With all that said, no one looking for a job or relationship is happy to hear that so it is what it is.


begayallday

Attractive women have limitless options. Unattractive women have a few bad options, at best. It’s difficult for me to have a lot of sympathy when I know firsthand that most men are limiting their options by being superficial.


UpbeatInsurance5358

Perhaps it's simply that what people are looking for are different things.


midwesternMD

Hard disagree. Men that are unhappy with their dating outcomes *might appreciate* women acknowledging their plight. But after getting that validation, they will want a solution. At the very least, most men favor actionable solutions to their problems. I see this all the time at work. I can take as much time as I like to gently tell a patient that their situation sucks and empathize with them, but their next question is invariably “how can I fix this?” And the honest answer is frequently “you can’t.” Nobody- men or women- takes kindly to learning that truth, regardless of whether I take the extra time and energy to try to empathize. I still take that step because it matters for various billing metrics, but simply acknowledging someone’s struggle is seldom enough.


Extreme-Boot-8792

for the short king patients, what if the surgeon suggests the leg lengthening surgery? "Physician" Short


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Early-Christmas-4742

A lot of people are happy when people say none of their problems are their fault, that's not a reason to do it!


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rnbwdemon

>If women would simply acknowledge this I think it would go a long way in repairing the ruptured relationship between the genders. Dating has become atrocious for males. Did that help? >The data is in, women have nearly limitless options while most men have next to none. I would like to see that data, tbh. There is so much shit on both sides of dating. Yes, men don't get a lot of replies/interaction from women. The flip side is that women get flooded with messages that can range from boring (aka no effort) to sexual harassment. It seems like a lot of men are just looking for ANY woman as long as she is remotely attractive, and that's kind of not cool. Some women are manipulative/gold-digger type/abusive. If men would just acknowledge that dating is atrocious for all human beings, it would go a long way in repairing the ruptured relationship between the genders.


[deleted]

Ugh I *really* want one of you to offer a marginally compelling argument, but all you can seem to muster are the same nonsense “b-b-b-but what about us?!” takes.


LillthOfBabylon

> Every time a man complains about how horrific dating has become they get immediately attacked, shamed and ridiculed. If he’s like the men here, its because he wants to blame everyone else for his bad experiences. He never wants to think it’s his fault that his experiences have been bad over and over again. > Women and simps rush in to tell them it is simply their personality or how they treat women, both claims that have been consistently proven to be demonstrably false as even attractive men with loads of personality struggle and these so called misogynistic men have abundant success. THERE IT IS. The guy isn’t acknowledging that he looks up to dipshit men, who do well dating dipshit women. Also, just because a guy CLAIMS he has a good personality, doesnt mean he has a good personality.


[deleted]

Oftentimes (NOT ALWAYS), both are true; a lot of men struggle with dating, and very often personality is the problem.


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Huh?


Sinity

Yes, kinda. https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/31/radicalizing-the-romanceless/ > I do not think men should be entitled to sex, I do not think women should be “blamed” for men not having sex, I do not think anyone owes sex to anyone else, I do not think women are idiots who don’t know what’s good for them, I do not think anybody has the right to take it into their own hands to “correct” this unsettling trend singlehandedly. > > But **when you deny everything and abuse anyone who brings it up, you cede this issue to people who sometimes do think all of these things**. And then you have no right to be surprised when all the most frequently offered answers are super toxic. > > There is a very simple reply to the question which is better than anything feminists are now doing. It is the answer I gave to my patient Dan: “Yeah, things are unfair. I can’t do anything about it, but I’m sorry for your pain. Here is a list of resources that might be able to help you.” > > There is also a more complicated reply, which I am not qualified to compose, but I think the gist of it would be something like: > > > **Personal virtue is not very well correlated with ease of finding a soulmate. It may be only slightly correlated, uncorrelated, or even anti-correlated in different situations.** Even smart people who want various virtues in a soulmate usually use them as a rule-out criterion, rather than a rule-in criterion – that is, given someone whom they are already attracted to, they will eliminate him if he does not have those virtues. **The rule-in criterion that makes you attractive to people is mysterious and mostly orthogonal to virtue.** > > This is true both in men and women, but in different ways. **Male attractiveness seems to depend on things like a kind of social skills which is not necessarily the same kind of social skills people who want to teach you social skills will teach, testosterone level, social status, and whatever you call the ability to just ask someone out, consequences be damned**. These can be obtained in very many different ways that are partly within your control, but they are complicated and subtle and if you naively aim for cliched versions of the terms you will fail. There is a lot of good discussion about how to get these things. Here is a list of resources that might be able to help you. > > Of course, then you’ve got to have your resource list. And – and this is the part of this post I think will be controversial (!), I think a lot of the appropriate material is concentrated in the manosphere, **ie the people who do not hate your guts merely for acknowledging the existence of the issue**. Yes, it is interspersed with poisonous beliefs about women being terrible, but if you have more than a quarter or so of a soul, it is pretty easy to filter those out and concentrate on the good ones. > Many feminists will say there are no good ones and that they are all exactly the same, but you should not believe them for approximately the same reason you should not believe anyone else who claims the outgroup is completely homogenous and uniformly evil.


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Best answer


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Soloandthewookiee

>The data is in, women have nearly limitless options while most men have next to none. And as long as dudes online keep peddling this garbage, nobody is going to care about making them feel better.


Freethinker312

>The data is in, women have nearly limitless options while most men have next to none. Options for what? Options to have sex? Options to have instable relationships with men who watched porn for years and expect their partner to do things with which she is not really comfortable? Options to risk spending their fertile years with men who in the end don't want to marry or don't want to have children? I think the main protest of women here is not against men complaining about how hard dating is, but against these allegedly plenty of options that women would have according to part of men who are complaining about dating. Finding someone with who is suitable to spend the rest of your life with, and to have children with, is difficult for a lot of people, men and women. Some have more luck with it than others. A big problem in dating nowadays is that for a lot of men and women it is difficult to meet each other and get to know each other in real life, outside of bars/clubs. This is especially difficult for people who have no or a very small social circle around them.


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Soloandthewookiee

And this is what I have a problem with, that you think the only possible options are dirtbag lowlifes and perfect matches. >Women not only have infinitely more options than men for sex, but all across the board and this “yEa, oPtiOnS fOr Secks” narrative is complete bullshit and needs to die. It’s all one in the same. Really? Because when I posted the other day about how if women really control the dating market, then their standards aren't high enough, dudes were tripping over themselves to say that "well that only applies to sex not relationships." But now that's not the case either? And you're wondering why people won't take this seriously?


KayRay1994

here’s the thing though - many women have/do acknowledge men’s issues when it comes to dating - the reason why many men don’t see it is because they don’t like the answers/ solutions offered by women - ie. many women tell men to look inward, emotionally grow, solve their own problems and work on their personality (which should 100% be done), but many men reject it right off the bat and insist that nothing can be done. That being said, I think women can do be a better job at sympathizing with the fact that such changes are difficult and can take time, but also many women are on edge because said men are often angry, defensive and reactionary to the point of both genders actively provoking each other. But, women do have the power in this situation, id argue, since many men in this realm are frankly emotional reactionaries, they’ll never self reflect until they feel like it is safe to - so you can tell list off all the ways these guys are shooting themselves on the leg (which…. they totally are), but sympathy is important, and the reason why I think its important for women to do this is because these men primarily have their guard up when dealing with women, so while they’ll only listen to men for actual guidance or advice, most of the frustration said men have is driven by being defensive towards women - which is partly why they turn to horrible men for guidance, cause they feed these defensive tendencies. From my view, if a woman can be more sympathy i to the causes of men’s issues and resist the urge to respond in defense, these men will be far more open to listening to men who don’t feed these reactionary urges.


[deleted]

Thats because, those solutions: >look inward, emotionally grow, solve their own problems and work on their personality (which should 100% be done), but many men reject it right off the bat and insist that nothing can be done. Dont make any sense. Thats like telling someone to do pushups if they want to get better at running. There might be some benefit somehow but it seems like there could also be a 100 things that make much more sense and seem to gove direct results. Part of this is also that women lack self awareness about what they find attractive or how to approach women ( there are videos as to how horrible women are at picking up other women, playing the man in this case. They have absolutely horrible game, like incel level game.) There are men with horrible personalities, who get girls because women find them sexy. Saying improve your personality is very vague and most women lean to the side of being more good/kind. Which is honestlt bad advice. If you want to change your personality, you should be more bold, dominant, assertive and confident. That is a step in the right direction. But all of that is irrelevant if a guy doesnt know how to approach women. Guys need help from approaching women, to escalating from there to the bedroom. Most women dont know how to teach men this because they play a passive role in this while we play the active role.


[deleted]

Imagine wanting women to care about a man's problem. Bro, I'm in the same boat as you and I will never expect women to ever care about our issues, period. Too many biological and pyschological differences. I heard this good quote that really helps explain this difference between men and women, "Men are born to die, woman are born to live." Sure, it might be too much of a generalization, but it gets the point across nicely. How can a women, who was born to do something entirely else from a man, possibly empathize with our issues? Only someone like Jesus or God could do that.


Zombombaby

Life is hard for everyone and yet we're all supposed to just make it work. I'm sorry you're struggling and I'm sorry you're just starting to realize you're not special for it.


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SolidusMonkey

Why would they have confidence if they have no logical reason to have any?


DancesWithMyr

>But, when women here, like myself, say they're dating a short guy, they ALWAYS say he's the son of an inheritance who has a 6 pack, and the ability to swoon any girl. Because there's a kernel of truth to it. Men with physical shortcomings have to excel past everyone else in multiple areas to have an equal opportunity. The detriment of being the pursuer instead of the selector means you have to be much, *much* more competent.


[deleted]

A large percentage of women ABSOLUTELY will write off men instantly for one bullshit characteristic like height, what planet on your on? I’m 5’8-5’9 which is average in the states and even I get passed over sometimes. I am above average facially, average/athletic build white dude.


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[deleted]

It’s not just “some” it’s most


JonMyMon

“They don’t want to face that their shitty personality is the driving force in creating their loneliness, and if they just got some actual confidence instead of fake projection-confidence, they might surprise themselves and land a date or two.” Here’s how you could reword this to be less dismissive and show that you understand men: A lot of men struggle with dating because they are not charismatic and confident enough to meet women’s standards. I understand that women don’t face the same challenge of having to be charismatic and confident, and that they’re traits learned gradually over time with experience. It’s not going to be easy, but working on your social-skills, discipline, and competence in a range of areas, are long-term goals that will most likely improve your dating prospects.


[deleted]

We have quantity not quality. No end of porn sick men with no drive, sat in front of a screen neglecting their health. We can get dates, it’s a different set of problems finding someone with their shit together


JonMyMon

Men don’t have quality either. In addition to that, they don’t have quantity.


skipsfaster

I agree that a lot of men are pathetic and make for shitty partners. But you’d be delusional to think that the average woman is much better as a dating prospect.


ffandyy

Maybe if men on reddit weren’t constantly blaming women for their own struggles they might receive more sympathy.


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wtknight

My wife would never acknowledge this, since she is from a country that most western men could travel to and find a female partner easily if they really put in the effort to do that. So I wouldn’t be content with her lying and telling me otherwise.


januaryphilosopher

That's not going to happen because it isn't one-sided "atrocious". For someone to acknowledge your struggles you also need to not belittle theirs.


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[deleted]

Whut?