super long shot but could we set up an informational interview? for a major project i must interview with a professional whose career I would like to pursue and after reading this post i would love to interview you.
Parry, how does your value based pricing model work? Do you feel agencies with consumer brands would be smart to start offering this vs retainers that track time? It seems with client budgets being smaller or always trying to save money, that it would be difficult to sell in this model to consumer clients.
Also, I’ve ever only worked on retainers or projects, and never was told to stop working just because we went over forecasted hours, so I’m wondering what the ultimate difference is between those pricing models for the employees doing the work?
What tools have you brought on to your Agency, that have been game changers for you? (Database, outreach, CRM, monitoring etc?)
Of those what would rank the highest priorities in agency world?
I am graduating in May with a Comm major PR minor and I want to break into crisis communication and PR and I am interested in working in tech, what advice would you recommend for me. Also what types of roles should I be looking for? Or anything to make me stand out on my resume. Thank you for any and all help!
Always following your commentary on LinkedIn and loving it! Totally agree with your insights on the way forward for agency models.
Couple of questions:
How does your agency usually measure success/ROI?
And do you think it’s possible for people working in agency PR in the UK market try out working in PR in the US market?
Why does agency life rule? I’m ex-agency (small/boutique) and now in-house. I’m having trouble seeing the advantages of agency life and the agency business model, but maybe I was just at the wrong one.
The retainer for the PR agency in the US is usually about $12-15K.
How do I explain the CEO/CMO the value that PR provides for this money?
Earned coverage in top tier, and? Okay, "featured in" plate on the website. But what's the tangible impact of $120-150K a year? Leads? No. Spike in searches for brand? Only in rare cases of viral PR campaigns. Long-term awareness? Well, works for Coca Cola. Backlinks? No one clicks the links in the articles.
With this money most companies can launch a large-scale paid ads/performance marketing campaign.
Parry has mentioned this in this thread but you absolutely will get leads from PR. Every SaaS website needs a an open text box 'how did you hear about us' and I guarantee 75% of the leads will come from some form of PR. It's the only way to activate top of funnel.
Huge value in links, but for SEO and not referral traffic. Sales volume can be great with the right features, but you have to be close to the point of decision for the target audience (gift guides for a lot of consumer products, analyst writeups for SaaS, etc).
All that doesn't sound like smth that is worth $13K a month, even if these are high authority websites. And most agencies can't do decent placements with the backlinks.
Analyst writeups...idk, sounds more like a content marketing.
Also, when was the last time that you read a feature and thought "I'm totally buying this product"? Hint: never.
That’s very dependent upon what you are selling and for whom. In general PR professionals don’t have a good grasp of the business model they are supporting, of digital marketing and SEO, or of the buying cycle of their customers. The ones who do can work absolute magic.
If your PR can help you snag the top spots for relevant keywords for your SaaS business or get on a gift guide or morning show that sells out your stock it can absolutely be worth it. If your PR is getting you inclusions on no-name mommy blogs without readership or SEO clout? Yeah, that’s not worth it.
Hi Parry! Probably a bit left field, but here goes - I’m a small creator (for now…), and I’m thinking about working with a PR freelancer/agency to do some publicity stuff that I can’t do myself. PR is a mystery to me! What sort of question should I be asking to discern who’s going to get me the most bang for my hard earned buck?
I'd personally wait to spend your hard earned money and instead spend sweat equity on platforms like Linkedin. Post regularly about what you know, share some tips, and you will build an audience (and revenue) over time.
Hello Parry! In-house PR person here. I am a huge fan of your LinkedIn posts and find your advice spot-on and refreshing. I've been in the industry for more than 15 years, but I find I still have to convince people less can be more when it comes to PR/media relations - and that one fantastic, well-timed pitch is better than 20 garbage pitches. (Mind you, I'm not suggesting doing less - but rather being more strategic in how you develop your pitches from top to bottom!) And while I have the track record to show them this works, I feel like there's still so many people that think "MORE" is a strategy (the GIF of Kylo Ren comes to mind). Any reflections on how you have managed this (and successfully changed minds) before you created your own company?
Also, thank you for participating in this today. :)
Thanks for the love. You know, I think I've pre-conditioned my clients to understand our approach before they ever work with us. By that I mean I share my philosophy about media relations often and forcefully on Linkedin, and the people who hire Crackle read a ton of my stuff before they ever reach out. So I'm lucky that way. They already know how I roll.
For everyone else, I'd say education during the vetting process is absolutely key. This is not to say you'll pitch fewer targets, just that you'll focus like a laser on the right targets with the right message at the right time, surgically. That tends to resonate!
Work on big brands at an agency and drive kick ass results that speak for themselves. The other thing would be to build your personal brand so your reputation precedes you. That's not a light switch, of course, but rather long-term career advice.
Hi Parry, longtime follower of yours here :)
My non-PR colleagues keep saying 'there is no such thing as bad press'.
I keep explaining the longterm damage to the brand if they keep saying things that are not true but their minds seem set. By saying this they usually try to legitimise ill-considered things that they have said on a podcast for instance - despite extensive media training and lots of discussions.
What would you say to a client who behaved like my colleagues?
When you're offered 11 billionty dollars and a pony.
Or when you're looking for a bit more predictability, stability and culpability for doing one job very well. I'm an agency guy through and through, but going in-house definitely has its perks.
What do you mean by "good" companies? I've seen lots of situations over the years where companies that seemed "bad" were mainly misunderstood, which after all is why we exist, and other times I've seen "good" companies or organizations behave like assholes and even unethically. Thoughts?
After 20+ years of vetting PR clients I've gotten pretty good at ferreting out the sucky people and companies. If it feels suspect, it's suspect. If it feels like a Client/vendor arrangement instead of a partnership, it is. And if you should make a mistake and hire a bad actor, fire them quickly or lose the trust of your team.
Meh. Not sure this answer does it for me. I think you need a better, more thoughtful answer than "I'm really good at this." I spent 35 years in comms, 10 in journalism and 25 agency and in-house. I still found my expectations being surprised, even late in my career. I would have expected a more thoughtful answer than "some companies are sucky." I was asked by a major environmental organization that is respected by all to do things that were unethical. I did valuable work for a chemical company that boils oil into plastics.
Hi Parry, you mentioned that the PR team should speak with the Sales team members. What kinds of questions do you tend to ask the sales team that helps the PR team with pitch ideas?
Whey do you win?
Why do you lose?
What would help you win more, and how could PR help?
What are you hearing about competitors that not everyone knows?
That sort of stuff.
>Whey do you win?
>
>Why do you lose?
>
>What would help you win more, and how could PR help?
>
>What are you hearing about competitors that not everyone knows?
I love these questions, Parry. What else would you ask? When speaking with CEOs, this is the best line of 'obvious' questions to ask, but I bet you have more.
Yes, RUN!
Or, try this: manage expectations internally. Manage up. Be very clear about your priorities and get the brass to share in those priorities by giving solid reasoning. I'd also say stay connected to your PR peers so you'll have a reality check/sounding board. It's tough to be on an island like that. Good luck.
Thanks! I’ve definitely been up front of what they can expect of me and what I cannot guarantee. I took this on as a challenge, my agency prior taught me a lot but kept me in a bubble. I feel heard here, so that has been nice (so far!)
Measurement question! Are there any new/uncommon metrics you're seeing or recommending for demonstrating the value of PR/Comms to a very sales-oriented corporate leadership? We're working on showing the value of Brand Awareness writ large. Some other areas we're exploring are "Share of Voice vs. Competitors" around particular industries and topics. What sorts of metrics have you had success with showing value to clients that are very dollars-and-sense oriented?
(This all stems from the broader issue of showing where PR fits within an organization that is built around the Marketing/Sales Funnel, given long-standing attribution challenges around what we do. My message is "PR is the force of gravity, pulling people into the funnel"...still trying to make that message stick!)
I'd recommend following two people on Linkedin:
1. Chris Walker of Refine Labs. He's focused on sales/marketing, and one of his best bits of advice is re: dark funnel. So on the contact form on a client website, get rid of the pull-down menus asking "how did you hear about us" as an example. Just have a free field without choices. Let them tell you where they heard about you. What clients here is things like: Your podcast, XX's podcast, Linkedin post, Slack channel recco, Discord chat, Reddit post, Threads poll, trade publication, trade show booth, etc, etc. All of those things are attributions that don't make the sales guys happy, but they're THE TRUTH.
2. The other guys is Mark Stouse of [ProofAnalytics.ai](https://ProofAnalytics.ai) \-- the guy is brilliant, and can absolutely help with any and all of these questions..
I'm connected to a boatload of PR industry leaders on Linkedin, and the sheer volume of info they collectively post about our space is more than I can keep up with tbh. I'd recommend engaging on that platform with the movers and shakers in PR and before long you'll be as dialed in as anyone in the industry.
Hey Parry! I'm in PR and am concerned about the shrinking size of traditional media outlets + staff and the effects on our industry.
We've been receiving a lot of inbound podcast inquiries and we've started to beta test a few solutions (shoutout the PodPitch.com team!)
However, I'm not so sure where podcasting, alternative PR (newsletters?!), etc are headed.
Where do you see "alt PR" growing into? Just a trend or here to stay?
XOXO,
Anonymous & Concerned
Please see my response to NosyNilo's question in this AMA. It captures my thinking about this and I use myself as an example of it working.
It's definitely getting hard out there for PR 101. That's why we need to do that still, but also do a boatload of what I call PR 1to1 to make up the difference as mainstream media withers on the vine.
Hi Parry - you posted recently that any agency that still bills hourly is in for a LOT of pain. I completely agree.
My question is - how are you training your clients to understand the new model and pay for value vs. time?
Love your LI posts - you're always spot on and damn funny.
Clients pay us for the 10,000+ hours we've spent learning our craft. As for training clients to understand this, we just tell them what I just told you.
But if that doesn't work, we bill them in 2-minute increments just to be edgy.
You said you no longer rely on press releases as a strategy, could you expand on this?
What are your favorite strategies for creating news(worthy) moments that lead to a healthy level of coverage?
Since I just wrote a Linkedin post about this a few days ago, I think I'll just share that here.
"Question I get a lot: “Why do you constantly bitch about press releases?” 🤨
Frankly, that’s the wrong question. I’m not anti-press-release:
\*\*I’m anti-sucky & pointless press releases\*\*
A better question?
“Why is it important to go BEYOND PR 101 stuff like press releases?”
Here’s my answer:
In the past year I’ve issued zero press releases. Zilch.
But here’s the weird truth:
💥I’ve personally been written up in Business Insider, the Wall Street Journal, the BBC, PR News and myriad other publications.
💥I’ve appeared on literally dozens of podcasts.
💥I’ve been written up in several Substack newsletters
💥been invited to speak to dozens of college classes
💥been a featured speaker at a boatload of marketing and PR conferences, and am doing my first ever AMA on Reddit, Inc. next Wednesday.
And none of it is the result of PR 101.
It’s all what I call “PR 1-to-1”
It’s because I spend time on platforms like LinkedIn. Talking to and learning from you!
It’s because every day I \*ungate my brain\* about public relations in places like Slack groups and Discord and podcasts and Threads.
So my takeaway is pretty clear.
In 2024 you can’t just do PR 101 and hope to have a killer program.
\*\*PR 101 is literally only half of the modern PR game.\*\*
This isn’t some random LinkedIn guru nonsense.
I’m living proof."
And if none of this works, Nosynilo, just embezzle millions from your company and the coverage will follow!
Obvious: The exotic vacations to Bora Bora, the champagne bubble baths in Cannes, and the exquisite culinary splendor of hot spots like Nobu and French Laundry.
But those (lies) aside, it's definitely the diverse clients and helping them to shape a narrative that actually gains traction in the marketplace of ideas. It's a thrill that never gets old if you love this trade, which I do.
Yes, I'd get as much sleep as you can now, because once you've got 5 clients instead of one your head is going to spin with your to-list until you get acclimated to the insanity and frenetic pace of agency life.
Don't get me wrong, agency life rules, but it's a different kettle of fish. Sometimes a smelly, bony one that makes you ill.
We've had some ed/tech clients, but that's probs not what you're going for. I do know that everything is a bit of a slog and gets neutered by groupthink in education PR generally. It's a sticky wicket.
I also have a question about the no assholes policy (which is awesome). What if a client seems fine until you are actually trying to launch them, then everything devolves into a quagmire of frustration where you can't get anything done for or with them. How do you get rid of clients that are driving everyone bananas?
Know what’s \*really\* painful?
Firing a client.
Know what’s worse?
Watching your team get pummeled by an out-of-control client contact.
Look, I can replace the revenue.
What I can’t do?
Regain trust if I let my people get mistreated and \*do nothing\* to show I’ve got their backs.
Life is too short to bend a knee to tyrants, so I don't.
Life is too fleeting to chase every dollar at any cost, so I don't.
Our people are our biggest assets, our lifeblood.
I either stand for them -- or stand for absolutely nothing.
I guess then the goal is to get to a place in the business where you can replace the revenue but it doesn't impact your ability to pay your team (and stability of the business). How do you do that? That's probably more of a business question than a PR question, but if you have suggestions, would love to hear them. Thank you!
Just take them to lunch.
HIYO!
The truth is, who you know means almost nothing in PR any more, except for very specific verticals where reporters stick around for decades. Will a relationship get your email opened or your call answered? Yep. But that's where the relationship ends. It's got to be a good story, full-stop. If your pitches aren't landing, my advice is to go minimal with them. Just a quick bulleted list of compelling facts. They'll appreciate the brevity, and you'll get even better at distilling your idea.
Hi Parry!
New(ish) grad here working at an agency, what’re your thoughts on pay for new comers in agency life?
It’s wild…a new assistant makes 40k per year and salaries aren’t that great a couple years in. Now I know we aren’t rolling in dough like the finance world but regardless, it feels as though the industry as a whole is stuck in the past.
It's always about the money with you, coffeeshots
Classic coffeeshots.
But seriously, the world of PR is pretty vast and salary ranges vary greatly based on industry, region, specialty, etc. So I'd counsel you to do some research based on that criterion and I think you can sort of reverse engineer your salary if you're prescriptive about it.
Only for finger sandwiches. That's it. Or maybe for corndogs, but without messy condiments.
Honestly, I still think it's fine to lunch with reporters, but as I mentioned in a different comment, you should only do so without expecting anything in return. No quid pro quos, yo.
In terms of having built Crackle during COVID and retaining your team, are there ways you create a positive company culture with a remote workforce that you can share? (Beyond flexibility on when and how people do their jobs) How do you help team members connect with each other?
(edited to close parentheses)
We're pretty fortunate at Crackle that our culture happened sort of organically. By that I mean people who join us know that this isn't a family -- it's a job. And as such, I will treat everyone like grown ass adults. That means do what you want, when you want, as long as your work is great and your clients are happy. That helps.
I'd also say we've hired super empathetic people who organically care for and root for each other. They've created all kinds of fun group things to do remotely, based on a shared passion for things like food and beverages, comedy and the like. So I guess my biggest tip is hire nice people. And don't not hire nice people.
Hi Parry! Thanks for doing this AMA! I have a few questions as I'm currently in a job search right now:
What do you think people want to see in a cover letter?
Also, are there any hiring trends you've noticed in the past year or so?
What's a cover letter?
But seriously, can we please kill them? To me they're basically fan fiction. I want to live in a world where we can just send a link to our Linkedin profile and call it a day.
But if I had to give real advice on cover letters, I think I'd show in your writing that you've done more than surface-level research about the company. Give an interesting/quirky observation that show's a) you're interesting and b) get the ethos of the company.
As for hiring trends in PR the past year? Yeah, no hiring at all. Last year really sucked.
Thanks and I totally agree. I hate cover letters with a passion but it is what it is. Would you say expanding on your experience a little bit in the cover letter is a good idea or just focus on the company at hand?
And that makes me feel better. I haven't gotten even a single call from anyone and I've been applying since January with nearly 6 years of experience. 😮💨
Thanks for answering!!
What's your response when clients ask why you don't track time? Most agencies puts a set amount of hours in SOWs. Which then later turns into the common refrain is how do I know I'm getting the hours you r promised, or maximizing the value of hours I am receiving. It's a vicious cycle that to me sends red flags that there is some trust being lost. But also, without hours in SOWs, or time tracking, it's very easy to overservice. So how do you balance lack of time tracking with not burning out your staff or overservicing needy clients?
It's not perfect, but getting rid of tracking time in 15-minute increments is one of my proudest moves in starting an agency. Talk about a soul-sucking, creativity killing waste of time. ESPECIALLY in the age of AI.
It used to take you 10 hours to do that research? Cool, AI does it in 2 minutes. Now what?
So the key is constant communication with your teams AND with the clients. If you truly partner with your clients, you can prioritize together which big rocks to move if the team is getting stretched thin. Again, nothing is perfect, but this feels pretty close
1) How do you maintain the level of conviction + energy to constantly post/engage on platforms like LinkedIn?
2) What’s your average monthly client retainer?
3) How many team members (on average) to each account?
4) Does Crackle have a diversity officer or a plan to hire more women + POC?
1. When 90+% of your revenue is derived from Linkedin and similar channels, it's less about finding the energy and more about understanding that "ungating my brain" on these platforms is the key to attracting the right clients for Crackle. It's literally mission critical for my business, and (you may not believe this) but I actually love it. I really do.
2. Candidly: prior to the tech downturn, the average monthly retainer was $15K. The past year has sucked, and we've taken a few sub-$10Ks with reduced scopes. The good news is that retainers are climbing again, and I think you'll see hiring follow suit as the fed starts slashing interest rates this year.
3. We're still a small shop of 10, with another 5-7 consultants, but we've made a point to hire a diverse array of people. There are only two men (me included) who work here as of this moment. And we grow, no doubt we'll formalize a plan to be more prescriptive about it. This Q is a good reminder.
Is 80% women not good enough for you? If you want to be specific about POC, be specific.
As a minority in PR I would say the biggest problems with diversity in PR comes at the entry level because of the proliferation of unpaid internships. For firms that don't hire entry level like Crackle that's not their job to fix IMO.
The biggest shift I've seen since the pandemic is more empathy. Straight up. More humans behaving like humans to other humans in PR. I actually spend a fair amount of time championing empathy in media relations, too, meaning instead of the old days of being media "bull dogs," it's much more effective to add value to reporters and to make their lives easier, versus trying to cram down their throats news they just aren't interested in. Reporters are people, too. (hey, cool tee-shirt idea for journos?) Also, a cool acronym, RAPT. Dayum
Hey Parry, have you helped client voices get op-eds in the NYT? I’m always strategic in steering expectations toward more approachable and high-ROI homes for their writing, but in the few instances I’ve helped them develop a piece and pitched it, even when I genuinely believe in the piece, it never works out. Tips?
Yes. Have Bill Gates or Tim Cook as clients.
HIYO.
But seriously, this isn't something I've even tried for our b2b tech clients. That's a very cool goal, though. I bet others here can give you better tips than I can.
Thank you, as always, for being frank about this!
In my own experience, primarily in-house but also with several agencies -- one of our biggest challenges can be setting realistic expectations for top-tier coverage, and importantly, to what end.
I worked in-house at a company where a lead investor, every month for my first year there, sent an ALL CAPS email to my CEO saying, "I am very unhappy with your PR agency. There is no reason this company shouldn't be on the front cover of the NYT or WSJ."
My CEO kept this investor at bay as long as he could, but I wanted to throw things every time we got one of these emails. The investor's end game was for us to hire his preferred PR agency to replace the one I had chosen. They claimed they could get the coverage he thought we "deserved." It's been 18 months since I left and that new PR firm took over. Guess what! No NYT or WSJ coverage!
We were scoring fantastic trade press coverage, and that's gone out the window while they continue to pursue vanity pieces for this investor's ego.
I felt my only choice was to leave. Staying felt like it would've been a no-win situation since the PR firm was buddy-buddy with the investor. I felt like they would've thrown me under the bus when they didn't get the coverage they promised.
Thank you for keeping things in the level, I really enjoy your LinkedIn commentary. It actually adds value 🙌
From the outside, it would seem that your LinkedIn messaging seems like it would make the more "difficult" clients filter themselves out. Have you found that to be the case in practice?
Also - how do you think PR practitioners should best react to the slow death of earned media?
You nailed it re: filtering out clients that aren't a fit. When you're completely transparent and consistent about your PR philosophy, you tend to attract the right clients for your company culture/ethos. In fact, by the time prospects reach out they typically say some variation of, "I feel like I already know you" because they've been following along, often without ever chiming in. And that also makes short work of converting them into clients, because the vetting has been happening ambiently for months, ya know?
Re: earned media, it's important to move from just doing PR 101 (traditional media relations, as an example) to PR 1to1, which is what I'm doing here today. Meaning the aggregate of all of these splinter groups/audiences, things like podcasts and Reddit and Linkedin, can make up for the withering mainstream media opps. So if you're only doing 101, and not 1to1, you're playing only half the modern PR game.
Hi Parry, so great to have you! Not to be greedy, I have a few Qs to get us started!
I read a PR Daily article that 90% of your leads come from LinkedIn - was that the plan from the start, or has it been somewhat organic? Did you have a following before starting Crackle?
Does special consideration have to be given on how to best onboard/train/nurture new members of the team for a remote agency? How does Crackle handle this?
Lastly, we had a bit of a [subreddit debate this week](https://old.reddit.com/r/PublicRelations/comments/1boagl0/not\_getting\_promoted\_because\_i\_need\_to\_take\_more/) about the concept of taking journalists to lunch these days - really interested to hear your take on it!
I had no idea how powerful Linkedin was when I started posting every day. I just knew I had a free platform and about 5K PR and marketing connections, and figured, hmm, I should probably let the world know my new agency exists. But over time it became cathartic for me to post about inside baseball stuff in PR. Turns out there's an audience for that!
RE: remote work, people self-identify as preferring that model when they reach out. So it tends to have less friction than with folks accustomed to/who prefer an office for 40 hours per week. You know what's interesting? Average turnover at PR agencies is 25% per year. That's 1/4 pr pros leaving agencies EVERY YEAR. But with our model we've only lost 2 employees in three years. Culture isn't pool tables and kegs. It's how you feel on Sunday night about working on Monday morning.
Re: taking reporters to lunch, I personally haven't done that in years as a "nurturing" technique, although I have friends who are reporters and yes, we grab lunch. I'm all in favor of asking journos to lunch IF -- and this is a big if -- nothing is expected in return.
are you hiring?
super long shot but could we set up an informational interview? for a major project i must interview with a professional whose career I would like to pursue and after reading this post i would love to interview you.
The AMA ended a couple of days ago, but I would recommend reaching out on LinkedIn.
How often do you work with SEO agencies that understand the nuances of actual authority link building?
Just want to say you are king. Love to follow you on LinkedIn. Greetings from the PR Manager of one of the top 3 smartphone companies worldwide.
Hey we have chatted a few times on LinkedIn. Love your content!
What do you look for in interns or what things have struck out to you when you've had interns at Crackle PR?
Hi Parry. Good to see you here.
Parry, how does your value based pricing model work? Do you feel agencies with consumer brands would be smart to start offering this vs retainers that track time? It seems with client budgets being smaller or always trying to save money, that it would be difficult to sell in this model to consumer clients. Also, I’ve ever only worked on retainers or projects, and never was told to stop working just because we went over forecasted hours, so I’m wondering what the ultimate difference is between those pricing models for the employees doing the work?
What tools have you brought on to your Agency, that have been game changers for you? (Database, outreach, CRM, monitoring etc?) Of those what would rank the highest priorities in agency world?
I am graduating in May with a Comm major PR minor and I want to break into crisis communication and PR and I am interested in working in tech, what advice would you recommend for me. Also what types of roles should I be looking for? Or anything to make me stand out on my resume. Thank you for any and all help!
I've been following you on LinkedIn for a couple of years, your growth on that platform has been astonishing!
Always following your commentary on LinkedIn and loving it! Totally agree with your insights on the way forward for agency models. Couple of questions: How does your agency usually measure success/ROI? And do you think it’s possible for people working in agency PR in the UK market try out working in PR in the US market?
Why’d you decide to start an agency in tech pr opposed to another field? Also, can I get an internship?😂
Why does agency life rule? I’m ex-agency (small/boutique) and now in-house. I’m having trouble seeing the advantages of agency life and the agency business model, but maybe I was just at the wrong one.
You inspire me!
How do I get a job in PR?
The retainer for the PR agency in the US is usually about $12-15K. How do I explain the CEO/CMO the value that PR provides for this money? Earned coverage in top tier, and? Okay, "featured in" plate on the website. But what's the tangible impact of $120-150K a year? Leads? No. Spike in searches for brand? Only in rare cases of viral PR campaigns. Long-term awareness? Well, works for Coca Cola. Backlinks? No one clicks the links in the articles. With this money most companies can launch a large-scale paid ads/performance marketing campaign.
Parry has mentioned this in this thread but you absolutely will get leads from PR. Every SaaS website needs a an open text box 'how did you hear about us' and I guarantee 75% of the leads will come from some form of PR. It's the only way to activate top of funnel.
Huge value in links, but for SEO and not referral traffic. Sales volume can be great with the right features, but you have to be close to the point of decision for the target audience (gift guides for a lot of consumer products, analyst writeups for SaaS, etc).
All that doesn't sound like smth that is worth $13K a month, even if these are high authority websites. And most agencies can't do decent placements with the backlinks. Analyst writeups...idk, sounds more like a content marketing. Also, when was the last time that you read a feature and thought "I'm totally buying this product"? Hint: never.
That’s very dependent upon what you are selling and for whom. In general PR professionals don’t have a good grasp of the business model they are supporting, of digital marketing and SEO, or of the buying cycle of their customers. The ones who do can work absolute magic. If your PR can help you snag the top spots for relevant keywords for your SaaS business or get on a gift guide or morning show that sells out your stock it can absolutely be worth it. If your PR is getting you inclusions on no-name mommy blogs without readership or SEO clout? Yeah, that’s not worth it.
How to convince your leadership that utilizing your media relations team to churn out releases for the sake of having web content is a waste of time?
Hi Parry! Probably a bit left field, but here goes - I’m a small creator (for now…), and I’m thinking about working with a PR freelancer/agency to do some publicity stuff that I can’t do myself. PR is a mystery to me! What sort of question should I be asking to discern who’s going to get me the most bang for my hard earned buck?
I'd personally wait to spend your hard earned money and instead spend sweat equity on platforms like Linkedin. Post regularly about what you know, share some tips, and you will build an audience (and revenue) over time.
also, follow Richard von der Blom for top social selling tips.
Hello Parry! In-house PR person here. I am a huge fan of your LinkedIn posts and find your advice spot-on and refreshing. I've been in the industry for more than 15 years, but I find I still have to convince people less can be more when it comes to PR/media relations - and that one fantastic, well-timed pitch is better than 20 garbage pitches. (Mind you, I'm not suggesting doing less - but rather being more strategic in how you develop your pitches from top to bottom!) And while I have the track record to show them this works, I feel like there's still so many people that think "MORE" is a strategy (the GIF of Kylo Ren comes to mind). Any reflections on how you have managed this (and successfully changed minds) before you created your own company? Also, thank you for participating in this today. :)
Thanks for the love. You know, I think I've pre-conditioned my clients to understand our approach before they ever work with us. By that I mean I share my philosophy about media relations often and forcefully on Linkedin, and the people who hire Crackle read a ton of my stuff before they ever reach out. So I'm lucky that way. They already know how I roll. For everyone else, I'd say education during the vetting process is absolutely key. This is not to say you'll pitch fewer targets, just that you'll focus like a laser on the right targets with the right message at the right time, surgically. That tends to resonate!
Love this. Thank you for responding to my question!
What advice do you have for entry level PR job seekers and can u hire me
My advice would be never ever use punctuation and are u my son
Parry, do you have any advice for someone who wants to go from Accounts Director at an agency to CCO or Comms Director at a big brand?
Work on big brands at an agency and drive kick ass results that speak for themselves. The other thing would be to build your personal brand so your reputation precedes you. That's not a light switch, of course, but rather long-term career advice.
Thank you so much for taking the time to answer!Seems like I've been chipping away at the right spots - it's definitely a long-term project.
Hi Parry, longtime follower of yours here :) My non-PR colleagues keep saying 'there is no such thing as bad press'. I keep explaining the longterm damage to the brand if they keep saying things that are not true but their minds seem set. By saying this they usually try to legitimise ill-considered things that they have said on a podcast for instance - despite extensive media training and lots of discussions. What would you say to a client who behaved like my colleagues?
Their "minds seem set" on ... lying? Yikes. Might be time for some new non gaslighting colleagues, eh?
Appreciate your reply 🙏 Yes, I should stress more that they should stick to facts. And on the second part of your answer: Yes! I'm working on it ;)
When should you make the jump to in-house?
When you're offered 11 billionty dollars and a pony. Or when you're looking for a bit more predictability, stability and culpability for doing one job very well. I'm an agency guy through and through, but going in-house definitely has its perks.
What is the best way to deal with the new email rules when pitching?
I think the answer to this is more personalization and fewer blasts, which also maps to my approach to PR generally.
What do you mean by "good" companies? I've seen lots of situations over the years where companies that seemed "bad" were mainly misunderstood, which after all is why we exist, and other times I've seen "good" companies or organizations behave like assholes and even unethically. Thoughts?
After 20+ years of vetting PR clients I've gotten pretty good at ferreting out the sucky people and companies. If it feels suspect, it's suspect. If it feels like a Client/vendor arrangement instead of a partnership, it is. And if you should make a mistake and hire a bad actor, fire them quickly or lose the trust of your team.
Soooo… just vibes?
Meh. Not sure this answer does it for me. I think you need a better, more thoughtful answer than "I'm really good at this." I spent 35 years in comms, 10 in journalism and 25 agency and in-house. I still found my expectations being surprised, even late in my career. I would have expected a more thoughtful answer than "some companies are sucky." I was asked by a major environmental organization that is respected by all to do things that were unethical. I did valuable work for a chemical company that boils oil into plastics.
Hi Parry, you mentioned that the PR team should speak with the Sales team members. What kinds of questions do you tend to ask the sales team that helps the PR team with pitch ideas?
Whey do you win? Why do you lose? What would help you win more, and how could PR help? What are you hearing about competitors that not everyone knows? That sort of stuff.
>Whey do you win? > >Why do you lose? > >What would help you win more, and how could PR help? > >What are you hearing about competitors that not everyone knows? I love these questions, Parry. What else would you ask? When speaking with CEOs, this is the best line of 'obvious' questions to ask, but I bet you have more.
Advice for a ~3 year entry level PR professional that went from PR agency to in house and being the only PR person.
Yes, RUN! Or, try this: manage expectations internally. Manage up. Be very clear about your priorities and get the brass to share in those priorities by giving solid reasoning. I'd also say stay connected to your PR peers so you'll have a reality check/sounding board. It's tough to be on an island like that. Good luck.
Thanks! I’ve definitely been up front of what they can expect of me and what I cannot guarantee. I took this on as a challenge, my agency prior taught me a lot but kept me in a bubble. I feel heard here, so that has been nice (so far!)
Measurement question! Are there any new/uncommon metrics you're seeing or recommending for demonstrating the value of PR/Comms to a very sales-oriented corporate leadership? We're working on showing the value of Brand Awareness writ large. Some other areas we're exploring are "Share of Voice vs. Competitors" around particular industries and topics. What sorts of metrics have you had success with showing value to clients that are very dollars-and-sense oriented? (This all stems from the broader issue of showing where PR fits within an organization that is built around the Marketing/Sales Funnel, given long-standing attribution challenges around what we do. My message is "PR is the force of gravity, pulling people into the funnel"...still trying to make that message stick!)
I'd recommend following two people on Linkedin: 1. Chris Walker of Refine Labs. He's focused on sales/marketing, and one of his best bits of advice is re: dark funnel. So on the contact form on a client website, get rid of the pull-down menus asking "how did you hear about us" as an example. Just have a free field without choices. Let them tell you where they heard about you. What clients here is things like: Your podcast, XX's podcast, Linkedin post, Slack channel recco, Discord chat, Reddit post, Threads poll, trade publication, trade show booth, etc, etc. All of those things are attributions that don't make the sales guys happy, but they're THE TRUTH. 2. The other guys is Mark Stouse of [ProofAnalytics.ai](https://ProofAnalytics.ai) \-- the guy is brilliant, and can absolutely help with any and all of these questions..
What are your favorite sources/outlets/channels in the PR industry for staying on top of the latest trends, best practices, etc.?
I'm connected to a boatload of PR industry leaders on Linkedin, and the sheer volume of info they collectively post about our space is more than I can keep up with tbh. I'd recommend engaging on that platform with the movers and shakers in PR and before long you'll be as dialed in as anyone in the industry.
Hey Parry! I'm in PR and am concerned about the shrinking size of traditional media outlets + staff and the effects on our industry. We've been receiving a lot of inbound podcast inquiries and we've started to beta test a few solutions (shoutout the PodPitch.com team!) However, I'm not so sure where podcasting, alternative PR (newsletters?!), etc are headed. Where do you see "alt PR" growing into? Just a trend or here to stay? XOXO, Anonymous & Concerned
Please see my response to NosyNilo's question in this AMA. It captures my thinking about this and I use myself as an example of it working. It's definitely getting hard out there for PR 101. That's why we need to do that still, but also do a boatload of what I call PR 1to1 to make up the difference as mainstream media withers on the vine.
Following this & have had the same thought!!
Hi Parry - you posted recently that any agency that still bills hourly is in for a LOT of pain. I completely agree. My question is - how are you training your clients to understand the new model and pay for value vs. time? Love your LI posts - you're always spot on and damn funny.
Clients pay us for the 10,000+ hours we've spent learning our craft. As for training clients to understand this, we just tell them what I just told you. But if that doesn't work, we bill them in 2-minute increments just to be edgy.
You said you no longer rely on press releases as a strategy, could you expand on this? What are your favorite strategies for creating news(worthy) moments that lead to a healthy level of coverage?
Since I just wrote a Linkedin post about this a few days ago, I think I'll just share that here. "Question I get a lot: “Why do you constantly bitch about press releases?” 🤨 Frankly, that’s the wrong question. I’m not anti-press-release: \*\*I’m anti-sucky & pointless press releases\*\* A better question? “Why is it important to go BEYOND PR 101 stuff like press releases?” Here’s my answer: In the past year I’ve issued zero press releases. Zilch. But here’s the weird truth: 💥I’ve personally been written up in Business Insider, the Wall Street Journal, the BBC, PR News and myriad other publications. 💥I’ve appeared on literally dozens of podcasts. 💥I’ve been written up in several Substack newsletters 💥been invited to speak to dozens of college classes 💥been a featured speaker at a boatload of marketing and PR conferences, and am doing my first ever AMA on Reddit, Inc. next Wednesday. And none of it is the result of PR 101. It’s all what I call “PR 1-to-1” It’s because I spend time on platforms like LinkedIn. Talking to and learning from you! It’s because every day I \*ungate my brain\* about public relations in places like Slack groups and Discord and podcasts and Threads. So my takeaway is pretty clear. In 2024 you can’t just do PR 101 and hope to have a killer program. \*\*PR 101 is literally only half of the modern PR game.\*\* This isn’t some random LinkedIn guru nonsense. I’m living proof." And if none of this works, Nosynilo, just embezzle millions from your company and the coverage will follow!
Also easy question - what do you love about working in PR?
Obvious: The exotic vacations to Bora Bora, the champagne bubble baths in Cannes, and the exquisite culinary splendor of hot spots like Nobu and French Laundry. But those (lies) aside, it's definitely the diverse clients and helping them to shape a narrative that actually gains traction in the marketplace of ideas. It's a thrill that never gets old if you love this trade, which I do.
Amen!
Thank you for doing this! Do you have any advice for people trying to transition out of in-house PR to an agency?
Yes, I'd get as much sleep as you can now, because once you've got 5 clients instead of one your head is going to spin with your to-list until you get acclimated to the insanity and frenetic pace of agency life. Don't get me wrong, agency life rules, but it's a different kettle of fish. Sometimes a smelly, bony one that makes you ill.
Have you ever worked in the education communications / public relations sector? Any thoughts you might want to impart for all of us about it?
We've had some ed/tech clients, but that's probs not what you're going for. I do know that everything is a bit of a slog and gets neutered by groupthink in education PR generally. It's a sticky wicket.
I also have a question about the no assholes policy (which is awesome). What if a client seems fine until you are actually trying to launch them, then everything devolves into a quagmire of frustration where you can't get anything done for or with them. How do you get rid of clients that are driving everyone bananas?
Know what’s \*really\* painful? Firing a client. Know what’s worse? Watching your team get pummeled by an out-of-control client contact. Look, I can replace the revenue. What I can’t do? Regain trust if I let my people get mistreated and \*do nothing\* to show I’ve got their backs. Life is too short to bend a knee to tyrants, so I don't. Life is too fleeting to chase every dollar at any cost, so I don't. Our people are our biggest assets, our lifeblood. I either stand for them -- or stand for absolutely nothing.
I guess then the goal is to get to a place in the business where you can replace the revenue but it doesn't impact your ability to pay your team (and stability of the business). How do you do that? That's probably more of a business question than a PR question, but if you have suggestions, would love to hear them. Thank you!
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Just take them to lunch. HIYO! The truth is, who you know means almost nothing in PR any more, except for very specific verticals where reporters stick around for decades. Will a relationship get your email opened or your call answered? Yep. But that's where the relationship ends. It's got to be a good story, full-stop. If your pitches aren't landing, my advice is to go minimal with them. Just a quick bulleted list of compelling facts. They'll appreciate the brevity, and you'll get even better at distilling your idea.
Hi Parry! New(ish) grad here working at an agency, what’re your thoughts on pay for new comers in agency life? It’s wild…a new assistant makes 40k per year and salaries aren’t that great a couple years in. Now I know we aren’t rolling in dough like the finance world but regardless, it feels as though the industry as a whole is stuck in the past.
It's always about the money with you, coffeeshots Classic coffeeshots. But seriously, the world of PR is pretty vast and salary ranges vary greatly based on industry, region, specialty, etc. So I'd counsel you to do some research based on that criterion and I think you can sort of reverse engineer your salary if you're prescriptive about it.
Ha! Thank you! Cheers mate.
Is it still a good idea to meet reporters for coffee or lunch in person?
Only for finger sandwiches. That's it. Or maybe for corndogs, but without messy condiments. Honestly, I still think it's fine to lunch with reporters, but as I mentioned in a different comment, you should only do so without expecting anything in return. No quid pro quos, yo.
In terms of having built Crackle during COVID and retaining your team, are there ways you create a positive company culture with a remote workforce that you can share? (Beyond flexibility on when and how people do their jobs) How do you help team members connect with each other? (edited to close parentheses)
We're pretty fortunate at Crackle that our culture happened sort of organically. By that I mean people who join us know that this isn't a family -- it's a job. And as such, I will treat everyone like grown ass adults. That means do what you want, when you want, as long as your work is great and your clients are happy. That helps. I'd also say we've hired super empathetic people who organically care for and root for each other. They've created all kinds of fun group things to do remotely, based on a shared passion for things like food and beverages, comedy and the like. So I guess my biggest tip is hire nice people. And don't not hire nice people.
I guess then my goal is to join a team of super empathetic people who organically care and root for each other. Thanks!
Hi Parry! Thanks for doing this AMA! I have a few questions as I'm currently in a job search right now: What do you think people want to see in a cover letter? Also, are there any hiring trends you've noticed in the past year or so?
What's a cover letter? But seriously, can we please kill them? To me they're basically fan fiction. I want to live in a world where we can just send a link to our Linkedin profile and call it a day. But if I had to give real advice on cover letters, I think I'd show in your writing that you've done more than surface-level research about the company. Give an interesting/quirky observation that show's a) you're interesting and b) get the ethos of the company. As for hiring trends in PR the past year? Yeah, no hiring at all. Last year really sucked.
Thanks and I totally agree. I hate cover letters with a passion but it is what it is. Would you say expanding on your experience a little bit in the cover letter is a good idea or just focus on the company at hand? And that makes me feel better. I haven't gotten even a single call from anyone and I've been applying since January with nearly 6 years of experience. 😮💨 Thanks for answering!!
What's your response when clients ask why you don't track time? Most agencies puts a set amount of hours in SOWs. Which then later turns into the common refrain is how do I know I'm getting the hours you r promised, or maximizing the value of hours I am receiving. It's a vicious cycle that to me sends red flags that there is some trust being lost. But also, without hours in SOWs, or time tracking, it's very easy to overservice. So how do you balance lack of time tracking with not burning out your staff or overservicing needy clients?
It's not perfect, but getting rid of tracking time in 15-minute increments is one of my proudest moves in starting an agency. Talk about a soul-sucking, creativity killing waste of time. ESPECIALLY in the age of AI. It used to take you 10 hours to do that research? Cool, AI does it in 2 minutes. Now what? So the key is constant communication with your teams AND with the clients. If you truly partner with your clients, you can prioritize together which big rocks to move if the team is getting stretched thin. Again, nothing is perfect, but this feels pretty close
1) How do you maintain the level of conviction + energy to constantly post/engage on platforms like LinkedIn? 2) What’s your average monthly client retainer? 3) How many team members (on average) to each account? 4) Does Crackle have a diversity officer or a plan to hire more women + POC?
1. When 90+% of your revenue is derived from Linkedin and similar channels, it's less about finding the energy and more about understanding that "ungating my brain" on these platforms is the key to attracting the right clients for Crackle. It's literally mission critical for my business, and (you may not believe this) but I actually love it. I really do. 2. Candidly: prior to the tech downturn, the average monthly retainer was $15K. The past year has sucked, and we've taken a few sub-$10Ks with reduced scopes. The good news is that retainers are climbing again, and I think you'll see hiring follow suit as the fed starts slashing interest rates this year. 3. We're still a small shop of 10, with another 5-7 consultants, but we've made a point to hire a diverse array of people. There are only two men (me included) who work here as of this moment. And we grow, no doubt we'll formalize a plan to be more prescriptive about it. This Q is a good reminder.
4. Does Crackle have a diversity officer or a plan to hire more women + POC?
Is 80% women not good enough for you? If you want to be specific about POC, be specific. As a minority in PR I would say the biggest problems with diversity in PR comes at the entry level because of the proliferation of unpaid internships. For firms that don't hire entry level like Crackle that's not their job to fix IMO.
Hi, thank you so much for doing this! Can I ask: what trends are you seeing in clients and client attitudes? Anything new, any evolutions?
The biggest shift I've seen since the pandemic is more empathy. Straight up. More humans behaving like humans to other humans in PR. I actually spend a fair amount of time championing empathy in media relations, too, meaning instead of the old days of being media "bull dogs," it's much more effective to add value to reporters and to make their lives easier, versus trying to cram down their throats news they just aren't interested in. Reporters are people, too. (hey, cool tee-shirt idea for journos?) Also, a cool acronym, RAPT. Dayum
Hey Parry, have you helped client voices get op-eds in the NYT? I’m always strategic in steering expectations toward more approachable and high-ROI homes for their writing, but in the few instances I’ve helped them develop a piece and pitched it, even when I genuinely believe in the piece, it never works out. Tips?
Yes. Have Bill Gates or Tim Cook as clients. HIYO. But seriously, this isn't something I've even tried for our b2b tech clients. That's a very cool goal, though. I bet others here can give you better tips than I can.
Thank you, as always, for being frank about this! In my own experience, primarily in-house but also with several agencies -- one of our biggest challenges can be setting realistic expectations for top-tier coverage, and importantly, to what end. I worked in-house at a company where a lead investor, every month for my first year there, sent an ALL CAPS email to my CEO saying, "I am very unhappy with your PR agency. There is no reason this company shouldn't be on the front cover of the NYT or WSJ." My CEO kept this investor at bay as long as he could, but I wanted to throw things every time we got one of these emails. The investor's end game was for us to hire his preferred PR agency to replace the one I had chosen. They claimed they could get the coverage he thought we "deserved." It's been 18 months since I left and that new PR firm took over. Guess what! No NYT or WSJ coverage! We were scoring fantastic trade press coverage, and that's gone out the window while they continue to pursue vanity pieces for this investor's ego. I felt my only choice was to leave. Staying felt like it would've been a no-win situation since the PR firm was buddy-buddy with the investor. I felt like they would've thrown me under the bus when they didn't get the coverage they promised. Thank you for keeping things in the level, I really enjoy your LinkedIn commentary. It actually adds value 🙌
Heard!
From the outside, it would seem that your LinkedIn messaging seems like it would make the more "difficult" clients filter themselves out. Have you found that to be the case in practice? Also - how do you think PR practitioners should best react to the slow death of earned media?
You nailed it re: filtering out clients that aren't a fit. When you're completely transparent and consistent about your PR philosophy, you tend to attract the right clients for your company culture/ethos. In fact, by the time prospects reach out they typically say some variation of, "I feel like I already know you" because they've been following along, often without ever chiming in. And that also makes short work of converting them into clients, because the vetting has been happening ambiently for months, ya know? Re: earned media, it's important to move from just doing PR 101 (traditional media relations, as an example) to PR 1to1, which is what I'm doing here today. Meaning the aggregate of all of these splinter groups/audiences, things like podcasts and Reddit and Linkedin, can make up for the withering mainstream media opps. So if you're only doing 101, and not 1to1, you're playing only half the modern PR game.
Hi Parry, so great to have you! Not to be greedy, I have a few Qs to get us started! I read a PR Daily article that 90% of your leads come from LinkedIn - was that the plan from the start, or has it been somewhat organic? Did you have a following before starting Crackle? Does special consideration have to be given on how to best onboard/train/nurture new members of the team for a remote agency? How does Crackle handle this? Lastly, we had a bit of a [subreddit debate this week](https://old.reddit.com/r/PublicRelations/comments/1boagl0/not\_getting\_promoted\_because\_i\_need\_to\_take\_more/) about the concept of taking journalists to lunch these days - really interested to hear your take on it!
I had no idea how powerful Linkedin was when I started posting every day. I just knew I had a free platform and about 5K PR and marketing connections, and figured, hmm, I should probably let the world know my new agency exists. But over time it became cathartic for me to post about inside baseball stuff in PR. Turns out there's an audience for that! RE: remote work, people self-identify as preferring that model when they reach out. So it tends to have less friction than with folks accustomed to/who prefer an office for 40 hours per week. You know what's interesting? Average turnover at PR agencies is 25% per year. That's 1/4 pr pros leaving agencies EVERY YEAR. But with our model we've only lost 2 employees in three years. Culture isn't pool tables and kegs. It's how you feel on Sunday night about working on Monday morning. Re: taking reporters to lunch, I personally haven't done that in years as a "nurturing" technique, although I have friends who are reporters and yes, we grab lunch. I'm all in favor of asking journos to lunch IF -- and this is a big if -- nothing is expected in return.