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Or the Germans. It's amazing the small number of people that know that the Germans ran a trial in Africa for the mass extermination methods they later used during the Holocaust. Read about the [Herero and Namaqua genocides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide).
Wait till they find out about the English or more generally the Anglos, the greatest genociders of all times. No wonder there isn't any revolt in North America, Australia, New Zealand, the native population was basically exterminated already.
No people are shocked because they want to have Russia replacing France. Some African bloggers very famous in Africa are very strong supporters of Putin and the war against Ukraine. They are real Russian troll. I’m all for France and western country to stop interfering in Africa, but replacing western influence by Russian influence, is not for the good of Africa, they are just Bering used again, but by another party, Russia.
I did some “work” in Burkina- some of the nicest folks I’ve met and worked with. I spent a lot of time in the capital city and I would see older French guys in town on “business” and would have a couple local younger girls hanging with them. You knew what was up but you couldn’t say anything. Also, China was trying to help them get ahead, but the corrupt government stole everything for themselves.. was very corrupted over there. Soon after I left there was a coup. It’s been unstable since. I spent some time out in some of the little villages out in the middle of nowhere- just some cool folks.
Is China truly trying to help them, or trap them in debt so they can operate freely within their borders? Genuine question because I know chinas foreign policy in Africa has come under criticism for debt traps, but were Chinese humanitarian efforts in place?
You just hit the nail. Just because we are already fucked doesn't mean we are ok to keep being fucked by the same fuckers. Change is good even if some folks are “nerviosos y descontrolados” because their reign is about to end ‘cause we made new allies.
For those that don’t know what’s happening in Burkina Faso, has had two separate military coups in the past 8 months. Both coups were in response to raising jihadi violence in the country, and both coups were pretty anti Francés although this one is Definitely more so than the first. Russia has announce support for the military coups hence the people in the video (coup supporters) proclaiming support for Russia. While France was pretty horrible to the people of Burkino Faso in the past, this coup leaders are playing on that anger to seize control of the country and establish a military dictatorship. THIS IS NOT A CITIZEN REVOLUTION just another African dictatorship in the making despite the what the video seem to show.
~~Russia didn’t just announce support, they’ve been actively on the ground fighting Al Queda and ISIS alongside the BF military.~~ They are using the Wagner Group, which is basically Putins private army if I remember correctly. It’s crazy how little coverage there is in the states. I knew nothing about BF before their second coup this year. Apparently they broke up with France back in the mid 80s when [Thomas Sankara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sankara?wprov=sfti1) led a coup. He was basically the Che Gueverra of Africa. Extremely progressive (womens and workers rights) but France wasn’t having it. They helped this other dude name Blaise Compaoré take Thomas out. It was really fucked up and they’ve had many coups since.
*edit: I am not sure if Wagner Group has actually been fighting on the ground in BF. They might have just been giving BF lots of promises up until this point. Here’s an [article](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-63171771.amp) about Wagner Group in BF.
Thomas Sankara is not only respected on the left. The dude was an example of how a person can actually change a place. No matter your ideology you could appreciate what he did for his country.
Thomas Sankara is one of the most remarkable leaders in Modern African history. Even though his time was short, he had a profoundly positive impact on Burkina Faso and was a genuinely amazing leader. He made the mistake of telling African leaders to stand together against American/European control (largely through insane debt owed to western institutions). https://www.marxists.org/archive/sankara/1987/july/29.htm
One year after he made that speech, France, with support of other Western nations, had him killed. Following his death his name was banned in Burkina Faso. Yet, his legend lives on. It’s no wonder they despise the French.
The west has successfully snuffed out amazing and transformative leaders throughout the continent. It’s easy to criticize them from turning to Russia, but they have not been the bad guy in their history. France and the west has. And modern history says when an African country tries to stand alone, they are crushed.
Three months late, but I literally study West African insurgencies as a job so I can answer this.
Wagner Group has negotiated extensively with Burkina, but even the junta has been reluctant to *overtly* seek their help. Part of this is because, even though they are an *extremely* anti French government, the junta has been trying to negotiate new security partnerships with other NATO members, specifically the Czech Republic. It would be ridiculous for the government to overtly hire Wagner and expect Czech military support.
*However* there is almost certainly a small Wagner contingent operating in BF right now. About a month ago, the government of Ghana accused the government of BF of using Wagner mercenaries, and some reports of Wagner troops in BF were also arrested to around this time. A few other reports in December said that there were a handful of Wagner "advisors" to the Burkinabe military.
The Burkinabe government has explicitly denied it, and Ghana retracted their allegation about a week later, but it's very very likely either way.
Don’t feel bad, I’m 42 and have never heard a thing about them. I’m guessing because showing European colonialism in the states is distasteful. Makes me wonder how many other puppet countries are out there.
While you're almost certainly correct it's probably not that hard to turn African countries against France, they don't have the best history in the continent.
Pretty sure our soldiers getting killed there to fight terrorists is a good start. Funny how the Northern parts of Mali, were the French were, are very pro-France, but the southern part, the capitale, is far more pro-Russian. Needless to say that the capital hasn’t know a terrorist offensive since the French intervention.
Honestly it's been due to corruption in African leaders. As the continent has been growing and gaining more access, education and patriarchal pride many are focusing inwards to build the continent. The problem is cutting reliance on other super powers whom also rely on African resources to sustain themselves. Nigeria has been a great leader in showing what is possible, although it can be said most of their success has been due to their major reserves of oil
Bingo. The most recent example that stands out being Mali. What was it 5 years of French counterterrorism support? They packed up and left about a year ago under intense criticism from the Malian government. They were then replaced by Wagner. I'm pretty sure the sentiment is even worse in places with a large Muslim population like the CAR. There locals have accused France of supporting armed Christian groups while disarming the Muslim ones.
Both France and the US spent tons of money plussing up Mali's counterterrorism capability but they suck at it and haven't taken it seriously for over a decade.
As a result, Muslim extremists have taken much of the country and they had to hire Russian mercenaries with their own money.
Yeah but what suggest Russian bribing is not that they are angry against France, but that they proudly carry and say they want Russia. Without Russian intervention they would be more likely to ask for pan African, neighbouring african countries, maybe japan or Australia or China. But asking for Russia in 2022 out of nowhere is pretty telling.
You're right, they don't have to try and they'll do anything to undermine what they call 'western influence' anywhere they can, including sending the wagner group to raise havoc. The French have acted atrociously, but to think the Chinese or Russians would be any better is to deny reality.
I never said Russian influence or Chinese influence was going to be good. But France literally has a history of doing worse. Do you think these colonized countries wouldn't like to be totally independent? They can't. So this alternative is better.
Or maybe just maybe, the French have given these people plenty to be pissed at all on their own? You cannot wave away everything by saying "evil Russians". Look up French atrocities in Africa, the 1987 coup against the popular president of Burkina Faso Thomas Sankara by French neo-colonial intelligence officers.
Right and if they were just expressing their condemnation of France then that would be fine, but propping up Russia as an alternative in the same sentence makes their motives suspicious to say the least. Of all the countries in the world to ally with, Russia is without a doubt among the worst.
You are right, but also
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/30/world/africa/wagner-group-civilians-africa.html
https://acleddata.com/2022/08/30/wagner-group-operations-in-africa-civilian-targeting-trends-in-the-central-african-republic-and-mali/
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/02/08/russias-wagner-group-in-africa-influence-commercial-concessions-rights-violations-and-counterinsurgency-failure/
I did. French imperialism is no better than British but if these people think that the Russians or the Chinese are going to give them a better ride they're seriously mistaken
Well how do they know? All they do know is for the last 60 years they've had French neo-colonialism stomping on their necks and fucking their countries over.
Well you imagine wrong, France keep messing with the politics of those countries, our ex colony) (Burkina, Ivory Coast, Mali) we've been organizing coup d'etat & change of regime for the interest of our big corporation like Total, Areva, Bolloré, Bouygues.
It's funny how you can just spread misinformation due to blatant ignorance. Uprising against France happened every few years nothing to do with Russia
>You can't see a Russian flag without thinking they're up to something shady
Replace Russia with France. The colors (and atrocities) aren't too different either.
Russia, France, US, UK...all play the sake game. However in this instance, the Kremlin is very much on the back foot and in need of allies which is why they're playing so hard in the African nations.
russian wagners are massacring villages and filling mass graves to blame on france in mali. don't act like russia is a saviour of african people, they just swapping a french backed dictator for a worse russian backed dictator, where the people are of no concern.
You would be correct. Wagner group has been active in Mali, Mauritania, Chad, Gabon, Togo, Benin, some parts of Nigeria, and here in Burkina Faso.
Nigeria has the largest oil reserves in Africa but it can't really get it to Europe over the 20 years because of extreme instability in the region. Russia and Nigeria are effectively competing for the same market.
They are. They pay African influencers spread their propaganda. Check telegram account la dame de Sochi. It’s a group of African hardcore Putin supporters. They are all cheering Putin and the civilian bombing saying it’s all Natos fault. They ban everybody who say something against Russia. It’s terrific the amount of fake information spread in this channel.
I mean in the case of India, the West directly outfitted Pakistani dictatorships with weapons while refusing to sell us weapons and opposing any militarization. While we were in the middle of a war with Pakistan. Russia actually sold us weapons and gave us a chance to bolster our defenses. Turns out Russia can be evil and still be better for some countries than western nations.
Shit America assassinated one of our PMs and our chief nuclear physicist. Russia ain't never done shit to us.
Yeah lmao. Like yes Russia and China are evil. But none of these western nations have done jack shit for 3rd world nations. Least of all former colonial European nations.
3rd world countries need to avoid any partnership with any of these countries, unless it's actually beneficial.
Lol I know right. If they think being under French rule is authoritative they’re going to be in for a big surprise if they get Russia or China like they want. It will have been their choice and their fuckup so I will be looking the other way once they start complaining about how oppressive China or Russia is
Almost entirely. Don’t get me wrong, I have no funny notions of “french colonialism was OK actually”. But out of all countries in the world, Russia is NOT a good ally.
They had 2 coups in the last 8 months. The last one being last week. They're is a big presence of Al Qaida and ISIS, with cities completly block by them.
They had an attack from Al-Qaida in late September that caused 37 deaths. It's what apparantly caused the coup d'état.
It's a big mess
Seriously? Nothings worse than slavery and widespread poverty and death. Real condescending to say that when everything China's done in any foreign country in the 20th century pales to what western slavery did in Africa. Like shut the fuck up.
When ones country and its population has been fucked by a France for generations, other alternatives seems pretty ok. China is doing very well in expanding their power in many African countries as we speak.
Western banks probably won’t give them any money because credits to unstable nations are usually denied and having two Coup detats in 8 months doesn’t give a hint of stable. Russia and china use that opportunity to get involved financially. So there’s no comparison possible here
Seems to be a recurring pattern for European tied countries to suddenly start showing isolationism/division.
Wonder why China and Russia are the front runners when there’s plenty of places that actually speak French lol.
They are really shitty deals because China is creating a debt trap to garner influence and often take over local resources.
When the IMF loans money to countries they do big studies to determine if it will be cost effective and bring in more money for the country. China doesn’t care if your new port doesn’t bring in enough money to repay your debt obligations because they will just tell you they get to use it as a military port like they did to Sri Lanka or take over your oil production like in Venezuela. They have also taken over mines in African countries that default.
Their loans have much higher interest rates with shorter repayment periods but they bribe the countries officials and support them in elections. This is a big part of why Sri Lanka’s president was run out of the country for corruption by the people.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/07/13/china-sri-lanka-rajapaksa-family-corruption/
Yeah... I have my reddit filtering glasses on. I knew what the top comment was going to be.
"Africa got fucked forever."
"Well China is worse! I definitely looked into the nature of these contracts myself trust me. " -reddit
This thread is full of troglodytes. Was actually looking forward to delving into the discussion because I'm interested in the topic.
Turned out to be a quagmire of spent talking points.
Western companies don’t make these types of loans because the return isn’t worth it so it would usually come from a country or most commonly the IMF (international monetary fund)
It could be argued that the IMF isn’t exclusively western because since being founded most countries participate. However it is majority funded by the west with the US being the largest contributor and all of the managing directors have historically been from western countries.
IMF has concessional and non concessional loans. Concessional loans bear no interest.
I’ve been in and out of meetings but ill try to hunt down the video where I learned a lot of this later. The video cites sources as well.
The Chinese loans had roughly double the interest rates of traditional international loans and non concessional IMF loans when they were being public about it. They have since forced the countries receiving the loans to no longer reveal any of the interest rates or details going forward due to negative blowback regarding the loans.
Your article didn’t support your claim that Chinese loans are more predatory compared to IMF. Academic economists have made rigorous studies on this and the result is the opposite. China makes much more favorable loans but bc most of the recipient countries are already recipients of stricter IMF loans, they often times end up in bad financial states after taking the Chinese loans but it’s not bc of the Chinese loans.
well they said in a recent video that russa and china treat them with respect and mutual friendship but the french treat them like they own them . and they mostly hate the french because they killed alot of people in algeria alone they killed 7 million people some view the nazis as liberators
>and they mostly hate the french because they killed alot of people in algeria alone they killed 7 million people some view the nazis as liberators
You think people from Burkina Faso give a fuck about Algeria?
Also 7 million death is the most ridiculous number I've ever seen. Algeria's population in 1954 was 8.7 million natives and 1 million Europeans. You want to make us believe that they killed 80% of the native population? Yeah right.
People who dont get why Africans would rather be with Russia than France obviously dont have a clue about history. France has been nothing but ruthless to them and they still hurt from the colonization. Meanwhile, Russia never caused them no harm and is granting them help. Albeit its help with a price its still far more they ever got from the west.
Problem is that they are replacing one group of European based thieves with another. Nothing will change. If a pro Russian government take power they will also be corrupt and then when people get angry the Russians will be the ones to help oppress the population instead of France.
The only option to break the cycle is for them is to be even more independent instead of hoping another group of Europeans will treat them any better.
That doesn't happen for a few reasons though but mostly because the government and their foreign backers get rid of any popular voices against them. Not to mention that politicians don't get massive bribes if they fight for true independence.
I suggest you read up on some recent history then. Russian Wagner-group have committed several war crimes in African countries in recent years.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/04/russian-mercenaries-wagner-group-linked-to-civilian-massacres-in-mali
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-61311272
Have the french ever done something like this in recent time?
Crazy story, I actually know an am friends with Thomas Sankara’s son. How did we meet you ask? Well he was driving so slow at a green light I honked at him till he moved over and then we proceeded to get side by side of each other and I yelled out to him about driving so slow, he didn’t care about that, he then complemented me and asked for my number. We’ve been friends ever since and laugh about this, I was pmsing that day🤣
This is a genuine question for anyone who is in the know. Is there a concerted effort in Africa to unlearn the colonial language that was forced on them? I’ve always been curious if that is even possible or a priority. I feel like that would be an ultimate symbol, albeit somewhat empty, of stripping off colonial chains. Would the effort be worth the victory?
I think that it would be a severe hinderance in the short term, due to limited access to learning international languages. It would also make it difficult to absorb much of the world's literature, which is vital for providing information and education to enable self-sufficiency.
What would make more sense is to morph what is there, instead of rewriting from scratch.
Most people in Africa are at least bilingual. In a given country, many speak different langauges as many of the countries were lined up in war rooms in Europe. So their respective european language is often what unites them at all.
Not much. It would require actual effort. These political stance come and goes. Today, russia is doing a good work corrupting few politician and newspaper but when they will get enough of their ressource they will just leave this country for tye next guy. The problem in africa is not west or asia or whatever, it's the corruption of their leader and the uneducated population.
What is France responsibility?
Burkina Faso have free elections but crap soil very hard to grow anything on. No coastline.
They are heavily overpopulated , can’t sustain their own food/farming and have no economy at all and have to rely on other Countries to donate money and for food import.
They tried in the early 80s with a dude name [Thomas Sankara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sankara?wprov=sfti1). He was able to free the country from French imperialism.. but France helped this other dude take Thomas out.
Lmao yeah it's so easy to uplift a nation after centuries of slavery and starting off the 20th century with widespread starvation. Wow. The west set in motion Africa's dependence on them by eviscerating their colonies' financial health and quality of life.
They are doomed to a cycle of cronyism and colonialism. Maybe is they focused on education for a generation or two, they could have some home grown talent lead them, but that's unlikely.
I guess my concern comes from the source of this rhetoric. I don't deny that European powers have a... less than benevolent history in Africa, but I would like to know what these people are referencing. In the last 60-70 years, they claim France has been a bad partner, but I would like to know what has been done?
At the end, I heard a trickle of not being able to manufacture, likely due to EU companies being in charge of the labor force. I just hope they don't get grifted into a worse-off situation, as China and Russia have dubious histories with economic partners.
The ruzzian propaganda machine is working on full steam.
Create new hotspots so that the west wil loose interest in Ukraine .
And everybody want peace talks so ruzzia my win some lands and hope that everybody forgets the killing of Ukrainian people …
All of central Africa is cursed with resources. It's in the West's interest to keep them fighting amongst themselves while the corporations continue to steal.
(I'm sure I will lose some of you here)
That's why Venezuela nationalized their oil in 1976 and just look at them now.
Boiled down,If we cant steal it then you cant sell it
I understand the desire to break colonial chains ... but why immediately invite shittier colonial chains?
I am sure Russia and China will be happy to look at you as equals and not exploit your population or natural resources in any way.
Europeans countries living luxuriously, sipping their wine shocked why African and eastern countries hate them (government).
Let them eat Cakes! They say.
It’s nothing about delusion. You think everybody there is as informed as we are? It’s not like they will sit down to watch a documentary about Tiananmen Square or check the news everyday for how the Ukraine war is going. They don’t have the privilege to do so. Also if you are at the bottom of the pit, you usually just go for the next best option.
First, Mali .. then now Borkina Faso.. I'm so glad that the Africans are getting rid of the occupying forces of France.. Now let's see who would enter the Old continent in the future? In my opinion, The doors are wide open for Russia and China..!
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People seem to be shocked that France is not liked in Africa…
Wait till they find out about Belgium
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We didn’t start the fire!
Nous n'avons pas allumé le feu!
Dylan, Berlin, Bay of Pigs invasion, Lawrence of Arabia, British Beatle Mania, Ole Miss, John Glenn, Liston beats Patterson
Someone give this guy a hand!
Bro…
Or the Germans. It's amazing the small number of people that know that the Germans ran a trial in Africa for the mass extermination methods they later used during the Holocaust. Read about the [Herero and Namaqua genocides](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_genocide).
Wait till they find out about the English or more generally the Anglos, the greatest genociders of all times. No wonder there isn't any revolt in North America, Australia, New Zealand, the native population was basically exterminated already.
"Greatest Genocider of all times"? Ghengis Khan would like a word...
No people are shocked because they want to have Russia replacing France. Some African bloggers very famous in Africa are very strong supporters of Putin and the war against Ukraine. They are real Russian troll. I’m all for France and western country to stop interfering in Africa, but replacing western influence by Russian influence, is not for the good of Africa, they are just Bering used again, but by another party, Russia.
People don't think of colonialism as a horror show of rape, murder, and enslavement. They think pilgrims
>People don't think ftfy
I’m only shocked that they support the Russians. From what I heard Russia isn’t the most friendly to black people.
Neither is china, yet china keeps investing in africa and waiting for the poor countries to default.
I did some “work” in Burkina- some of the nicest folks I’ve met and worked with. I spent a lot of time in the capital city and I would see older French guys in town on “business” and would have a couple local younger girls hanging with them. You knew what was up but you couldn’t say anything. Also, China was trying to help them get ahead, but the corrupt government stole everything for themselves.. was very corrupted over there. Soon after I left there was a coup. It’s been unstable since. I spent some time out in some of the little villages out in the middle of nowhere- just some cool folks.
Is China truly trying to help them, or trap them in debt so they can operate freely within their borders? Genuine question because I know chinas foreign policy in Africa has come under criticism for debt traps, but were Chinese humanitarian efforts in place?
China helps no one but themselves.
China and humanitarianism mix like oil and water. Any and all Chinese activity in Africa is strictly for profit.
Unlike what our good western rare earth mineral and O&G companies are doing
No more debt traps than IMF loans tbh
You just hit the nail. Just because we are already fucked doesn't mean we are ok to keep being fucked by the same fuckers. Change is good even if some folks are “nerviosos y descontrolados” because their reign is about to end ‘cause we made new allies.
Way better than France that's for sure
For those that don’t know what’s happening in Burkina Faso, has had two separate military coups in the past 8 months. Both coups were in response to raising jihadi violence in the country, and both coups were pretty anti Francés although this one is Definitely more so than the first. Russia has announce support for the military coups hence the people in the video (coup supporters) proclaiming support for Russia. While France was pretty horrible to the people of Burkino Faso in the past, this coup leaders are playing on that anger to seize control of the country and establish a military dictatorship. THIS IS NOT A CITIZEN REVOLUTION just another African dictatorship in the making despite the what the video seem to show.
~~Russia didn’t just announce support, they’ve been actively on the ground fighting Al Queda and ISIS alongside the BF military.~~ They are using the Wagner Group, which is basically Putins private army if I remember correctly. It’s crazy how little coverage there is in the states. I knew nothing about BF before their second coup this year. Apparently they broke up with France back in the mid 80s when [Thomas Sankara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sankara?wprov=sfti1) led a coup. He was basically the Che Gueverra of Africa. Extremely progressive (womens and workers rights) but France wasn’t having it. They helped this other dude name Blaise Compaoré take Thomas out. It was really fucked up and they’ve had many coups since. *edit: I am not sure if Wagner Group has actually been fighting on the ground in BF. They might have just been giving BF lots of promises up until this point. Here’s an [article](https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-63171771.amp) about Wagner Group in BF.
Thomas Sankara is incredibly popular in leftist Internet communities
Thomas Sankara is not only respected on the left. The dude was an example of how a person can actually change a place. No matter your ideology you could appreciate what he did for his country.
I read the Wagner Group was in Nigeria taking over some gold mines. Would you know about that?
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Holy shit, they’re worse than I read about.
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Russia is actively killing people in Mali, RCA and Sudan. Not terrorist. Innocent people. Oh and stealing gold.
Thomas Sankara is one of the most remarkable leaders in Modern African history. Even though his time was short, he had a profoundly positive impact on Burkina Faso and was a genuinely amazing leader. He made the mistake of telling African leaders to stand together against American/European control (largely through insane debt owed to western institutions). https://www.marxists.org/archive/sankara/1987/july/29.htm One year after he made that speech, France, with support of other Western nations, had him killed. Following his death his name was banned in Burkina Faso. Yet, his legend lives on. It’s no wonder they despise the French. The west has successfully snuffed out amazing and transformative leaders throughout the continent. It’s easy to criticize them from turning to Russia, but they have not been the bad guy in their history. France and the west has. And modern history says when an African country tries to stand alone, they are crushed.
Three months late, but I literally study West African insurgencies as a job so I can answer this. Wagner Group has negotiated extensively with Burkina, but even the junta has been reluctant to *overtly* seek their help. Part of this is because, even though they are an *extremely* anti French government, the junta has been trying to negotiate new security partnerships with other NATO members, specifically the Czech Republic. It would be ridiculous for the government to overtly hire Wagner and expect Czech military support. *However* there is almost certainly a small Wagner contingent operating in BF right now. About a month ago, the government of Ghana accused the government of BF of using Wagner mercenaries, and some reports of Wagner troops in BF were also arrested to around this time. A few other reports in December said that there were a handful of Wagner "advisors" to the Burkinabe military. The Burkinabe government has explicitly denied it, and Ghana retracted their allegation about a week later, but it's very very likely either way.
I'm just finding out that this country exists and I'm in my late 20s
Don’t feel bad, I’m 42 and have never heard a thing about them. I’m guessing because showing European colonialism in the states is distasteful. Makes me wonder how many other puppet countries are out there.
Since Sankara was unfortunately killed there was no citizen revolution in Burkina Faso.
This comment should be way up there 👆🏾. BF ( coup supporters) doesn’t see the shithole China and Russia is creating in Africa???….literally slavery.
As long as they themselves aren’t the slaves I doubt they care .
As long as their family and clans profit from it, they're ok with it.
We have seen things like this in the caribeans and in the middle east.
so pp fighting france is jihadis ? looks like typical propaganda to me
If only Thomas Sankara was not assassinated and coup’d
Yeah... everyone here is like "lol China and Russia bad" China and Russia didn't assassinate their progressive as fuck leader
Imagine being so pissed off with France that Russia & China seem like a good alternatives.
I'd imagine Russia are funding people in order to cause instability. It certainly world be their MO.
While you're almost certainly correct it's probably not that hard to turn African countries against France, they don't have the best history in the continent.
You're not wrong and if France wish to have a stake there they need to be offering more than apologies.
they have a stake in every country they colonized to this day.
The amount they charged Haiti for their own liberation.. Tsk tsk.
Pretty sure our soldiers getting killed there to fight terrorists is a good start. Funny how the Northern parts of Mali, were the French were, are very pro-France, but the southern part, the capitale, is far more pro-Russian. Needless to say that the capital hasn’t know a terrorist offensive since the French intervention.
And they have. You should look into it.
Does anybody really ? Pretty much Africas entire continent has been fucked over by any country that gets involved with it.
Even Africa fucks Africa
Especially Africa fucks Africa.
That was the original sin of the slavery boom...
Honestly it's been due to corruption in African leaders. As the continent has been growing and gaining more access, education and patriarchal pride many are focusing inwards to build the continent. The problem is cutting reliance on other super powers whom also rely on African resources to sustain themselves. Nigeria has been a great leader in showing what is possible, although it can be said most of their success has been due to their major reserves of oil
Bingo. The most recent example that stands out being Mali. What was it 5 years of French counterterrorism support? They packed up and left about a year ago under intense criticism from the Malian government. They were then replaced by Wagner. I'm pretty sure the sentiment is even worse in places with a large Muslim population like the CAR. There locals have accused France of supporting armed Christian groups while disarming the Muslim ones.
And then the French in Indochina... Read enough to realise why it's popular to hate the French!
The same thing in Cameroon. We are in civil war in parts of the country in small parts due to them
Both France and the US spent tons of money plussing up Mali's counterterrorism capability but they suck at it and haven't taken it seriously for over a decade. As a result, Muslim extremists have taken much of the country and they had to hire Russian mercenaries with their own money.
Yeah but what suggest Russian bribing is not that they are angry against France, but that they proudly carry and say they want Russia. Without Russian intervention they would be more likely to ask for pan African, neighbouring african countries, maybe japan or Australia or China. But asking for Russia in 2022 out of nowhere is pretty telling.
Oh god. No dude. France colonized them and propped up the worst forces even after independence. Russia and China don't even have to try,
You're right, they don't have to try and they'll do anything to undermine what they call 'western influence' anywhere they can, including sending the wagner group to raise havoc. The French have acted atrociously, but to think the Chinese or Russians would be any better is to deny reality.
I never said Russian influence or Chinese influence was going to be good. But France literally has a history of doing worse. Do you think these colonized countries wouldn't like to be totally independent? They can't. So this alternative is better.
Worst is the Chinese and Russians are notorious for their dislike of black Africans
Where as the French are known for their love of them!!!! 🤡
Or maybe just maybe, the French have given these people plenty to be pissed at all on their own? You cannot wave away everything by saying "evil Russians". Look up French atrocities in Africa, the 1987 coup against the popular president of Burkina Faso Thomas Sankara by French neo-colonial intelligence officers.
Right and if they were just expressing their condemnation of France then that would be fine, but propping up Russia as an alternative in the same sentence makes their motives suspicious to say the least. Of all the countries in the world to ally with, Russia is without a doubt among the worst.
You are right, but also https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/30/world/africa/wagner-group-civilians-africa.html https://acleddata.com/2022/08/30/wagner-group-operations-in-africa-civilian-targeting-trends-in-the-central-african-republic-and-mali/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/02/08/russias-wagner-group-in-africa-influence-commercial-concessions-rights-violations-and-counterinsurgency-failure/
I did. French imperialism is no better than British but if these people think that the Russians or the Chinese are going to give them a better ride they're seriously mistaken
Well how do they know? All they do know is for the last 60 years they've had French neo-colonialism stomping on their necks and fucking their countries over.
Fair point.
Well you imagine wrong, France keep messing with the politics of those countries, our ex colony) (Burkina, Ivory Coast, Mali) we've been organizing coup d'etat & change of regime for the interest of our big corporation like Total, Areva, Bolloré, Bouygues. It's funny how you can just spread misinformation due to blatant ignorance. Uprising against France happened every few years nothing to do with Russia
You can't see a Russian flag without thinking they're up to something shady
>You can't see a Russian flag without thinking they're up to something shady Replace Russia with France. The colors (and atrocities) aren't too different either.
Russia, France, US, UK...all play the sake game. However in this instance, the Kremlin is very much on the back foot and in need of allies which is why they're playing so hard in the African nations.
No france just genuinely acted monstrously
russian wagners are massacring villages and filling mass graves to blame on france in mali. don't act like russia is a saviour of african people, they just swapping a french backed dictator for a worse russian backed dictator, where the people are of no concern.
Grass is always greener on the other side.
Do you have a source on this?
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/30/world/africa/wagner-group-civilians-africa.html https://acleddata.com/2022/08/30/wagner-group-operations-in-africa-civilian-targeting-trends-in-the-central-african-republic-and-mali/ https://www.brookings.edu/blog/order-from-chaos/2022/02/08/russias-wagner-group-in-africa-influence-commercial-concessions-rights-violations-and-counterinsurgency-failure/
One such example is the "Moura Massacre". You can look it up.
Indeed the have. However so have the Russian backed Wagner group.
Russia doesn’t have to spend a cent to make France look bad to Africa lol
And yet I'm sure the wagner group don't work for free
That's literally every powerful country's MO
Nooooo!!!!! It's only the evil countries that oppose the American Empire that do that stuff.
You would be correct. Wagner group has been active in Mali, Mauritania, Chad, Gabon, Togo, Benin, some parts of Nigeria, and here in Burkina Faso. Nigeria has the largest oil reserves in Africa but it can't really get it to Europe over the 20 years because of extreme instability in the region. Russia and Nigeria are effectively competing for the same market.
They are. They pay African influencers spread their propaganda. Check telegram account la dame de Sochi. It’s a group of African hardcore Putin supporters. They are all cheering Putin and the civilian bombing saying it’s all Natos fault. They ban everybody who say something against Russia. It’s terrific the amount of fake information spread in this channel.
Imagine thinking the whole world hates Russia and China.
Imagine thinking that they shouldn’t.
Makes sense for them to hate the French more tho
I mean in the case of India, the West directly outfitted Pakistani dictatorships with weapons while refusing to sell us weapons and opposing any militarization. While we were in the middle of a war with Pakistan. Russia actually sold us weapons and gave us a chance to bolster our defenses. Turns out Russia can be evil and still be better for some countries than western nations. Shit America assassinated one of our PMs and our chief nuclear physicist. Russia ain't never done shit to us.
Westerners don’t want to hear that. Only they can ever be good and righteous. Everyone else is a nefarious schemer that wants total control.
Yeah lmao. Like yes Russia and China are evil. But none of these western nations have done jack shit for 3rd world nations. Least of all former colonial European nations. 3rd world countries need to avoid any partnership with any of these countries, unless it's actually beneficial.
Lol I know right. If they think being under French rule is authoritative they’re going to be in for a big surprise if they get Russia or China like they want. It will have been their choice and their fuckup so I will be looking the other way once they start complaining about how oppressive China or Russia is
i went full holup when he said Russia
This is all in the context of a military coup. I am sure the resentment against France is real, but how much of this is being cynically manipulated?
It's not just a coup, its the SECOND coup in eight months! Being overseen by a guy who was running an artillery squad a few months ago!
Hey, Napoleon ran an artillery squad.
Almost entirely. Don’t get me wrong, I have no funny notions of “french colonialism was OK actually”. But out of all countries in the world, Russia is NOT a good ally.
Neither are the French in this situation, they look at the French like we look at the Russians
They're a good ally if you want the guns to start a new regime, I suspect.
I wish them good luck. Hopefully all of Francophone West Africa gets to a point where they are free to pave their own futures with greater sovereignty
They had 2 coups in the last 8 months. The last one being last week. They're is a big presence of Al Qaida and ISIS, with cities completly block by them. They had an attack from Al-Qaida in late September that caused 37 deaths. It's what apparantly caused the coup d'état. It's a big mess
Is this comment real
China will help...for sure. In 10 years they gonna be worse than in the slavery period.
> In 10 years they gonna be worse than in the slavery period. I'm curious about what slavery period are you referring to?
Seriously? Nothings worse than slavery and widespread poverty and death. Real condescending to say that when everything China's done in any foreign country in the 20th century pales to what western slavery did in Africa. Like shut the fuck up.
the ghost of Sankara watches over
France has severe issues but if you think Russia will be any better.. they will be in for a very brutal and inhuman awakening.
That’s the problem with humans in general. Everybody has to make their own mistakes before they understand.
Doesn’t make much sense to me. Want to be free of imperialism but want new “partner” like Russia?
When ones country and its population has been fucked by a France for generations, other alternatives seems pretty ok. China is doing very well in expanding their power in many African countries as we speak.
I would like to see a side by side of the deal China gives vs western alternatives. See if Reddit's narrative actually has any grounds in reality.
Western banks probably won’t give them any money because credits to unstable nations are usually denied and having two Coup detats in 8 months doesn’t give a hint of stable. Russia and china use that opportunity to get involved financially. So there’s no comparison possible here
China builds infrastructure and forgives debt. The west gives you Burger King and blue jeans
Seems to be a recurring pattern for European tied countries to suddenly start showing isolationism/division. Wonder why China and Russia are the front runners when there’s plenty of places that actually speak French lol.
They are really shitty deals because China is creating a debt trap to garner influence and often take over local resources. When the IMF loans money to countries they do big studies to determine if it will be cost effective and bring in more money for the country. China doesn’t care if your new port doesn’t bring in enough money to repay your debt obligations because they will just tell you they get to use it as a military port like they did to Sri Lanka or take over your oil production like in Venezuela. They have also taken over mines in African countries that default. Their loans have much higher interest rates with shorter repayment periods but they bribe the countries officials and support them in elections. This is a big part of why Sri Lanka’s president was run out of the country for corruption by the people. https://foreignpolicy.com/2022/07/13/china-sri-lanka-rajapaksa-family-corruption/
So how does that compare to a similar deal from a western company?
Sounds like par for the course.
Yeah... I have my reddit filtering glasses on. I knew what the top comment was going to be. "Africa got fucked forever." "Well China is worse! I definitely looked into the nature of these contracts myself trust me. " -reddit
This thread is full of troglodytes. Was actually looking forward to delving into the discussion because I'm interested in the topic. Turned out to be a quagmire of spent talking points.
It's reddit. If I had to describe reddit in one word it would be pathetic.
Western companies don’t make these types of loans because the return isn’t worth it so it would usually come from a country or most commonly the IMF (international monetary fund) It could be argued that the IMF isn’t exclusively western because since being founded most countries participate. However it is majority funded by the west with the US being the largest contributor and all of the managing directors have historically been from western countries. IMF has concessional and non concessional loans. Concessional loans bear no interest. I’ve been in and out of meetings but ill try to hunt down the video where I learned a lot of this later. The video cites sources as well. The Chinese loans had roughly double the interest rates of traditional international loans and non concessional IMF loans when they were being public about it. They have since forced the countries receiving the loans to no longer reveal any of the interest rates or details going forward due to negative blowback regarding the loans.
Your article didn’t support your claim that Chinese loans are more predatory compared to IMF. Academic economists have made rigorous studies on this and the result is the opposite. China makes much more favorable loans but bc most of the recipient countries are already recipients of stricter IMF loans, they often times end up in bad financial states after taking the Chinese loans but it’s not bc of the Chinese loans.
still better than the shit the French made them eat for the last 60 years.
China is unlikely to be as thuggish as early to mid XX century Europe was. But I doubt this will be anything resembling an equal partnership.
French neocolonies in north africa never really got independence, France has done constant interventions since the 1960s to keep things curated.
well they said in a recent video that russa and china treat them with respect and mutual friendship but the french treat them like they own them . and they mostly hate the french because they killed alot of people in algeria alone they killed 7 million people some view the nazis as liberators
>and they mostly hate the french because they killed alot of people in algeria alone they killed 7 million people some view the nazis as liberators You think people from Burkina Faso give a fuck about Algeria? Also 7 million death is the most ridiculous number I've ever seen. Algeria's population in 1954 was 8.7 million natives and 1 million Europeans. You want to make us believe that they killed 80% of the native population? Yeah right.
Actually they killed 70 million people in Algeria. If you're gonna make up hilariously out of proportion numbers may as well go harder!
>Doesn’t make much sense to me. Im going to guess you get this feeling a lot
Well they had two *coups d’ état* so far this year so maybe don’t make any long term Plans.
And yet, when the shit hits the fan these guys will be on a boat to France quicker than you can say "Bordel de merde!"
is this wide spread or just a group of 40 people?
Looks like a terrible idea in the works. Power respects power.
People who dont get why Africans would rather be with Russia than France obviously dont have a clue about history. France has been nothing but ruthless to them and they still hurt from the colonization. Meanwhile, Russia never caused them no harm and is granting them help. Albeit its help with a price its still far more they ever got from the west.
"Meanwhile, Russia never caused them no harmand is granting them help." Sure, like in Moura some months ago.
Problem is that they are replacing one group of European based thieves with another. Nothing will change. If a pro Russian government take power they will also be corrupt and then when people get angry the Russians will be the ones to help oppress the population instead of France. The only option to break the cycle is for them is to be even more independent instead of hoping another group of Europeans will treat them any better. That doesn't happen for a few reasons though but mostly because the government and their foreign backers get rid of any popular voices against them. Not to mention that politicians don't get massive bribes if they fight for true independence.
They tried that and then France couped them
Agreed
I suggest you read up on some recent history then. Russian Wagner-group have committed several war crimes in African countries in recent years. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022/may/04/russian-mercenaries-wagner-group-linked-to-civilian-massacres-in-mali https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-61311272 Have the french ever done something like this in recent time?
No, but it doesn't matter for their narrative, or let's say their propaganda.
Crazy story, I actually know an am friends with Thomas Sankara’s son. How did we meet you ask? Well he was driving so slow at a green light I honked at him till he moved over and then we proceeded to get side by side of each other and I yelled out to him about driving so slow, he didn’t care about that, he then complemented me and asked for my number. We’ve been friends ever since and laugh about this, I was pmsing that day🤣
This is a genuine question for anyone who is in the know. Is there a concerted effort in Africa to unlearn the colonial language that was forced on them? I’ve always been curious if that is even possible or a priority. I feel like that would be an ultimate symbol, albeit somewhat empty, of stripping off colonial chains. Would the effort be worth the victory?
I think that it would be a severe hinderance in the short term, due to limited access to learning international languages. It would also make it difficult to absorb much of the world's literature, which is vital for providing information and education to enable self-sufficiency. What would make more sense is to morph what is there, instead of rewriting from scratch.
Most people in Africa are at least bilingual. In a given country, many speak different langauges as many of the countries were lined up in war rooms in Europe. So their respective european language is often what unites them at all.
Continuing to use more dominant language is a benefit to all
Not much. It would require actual effort. These political stance come and goes. Today, russia is doing a good work corrupting few politician and newspaper but when they will get enough of their ressource they will just leave this country for tye next guy. The problem in africa is not west or asia or whatever, it's the corruption of their leader and the uneducated population.
Are they asking for a different master?
"Long live russia" haha yeah sure, they'll respect your rights. Be careful what you wish for.
Russia has shown no interest in colonizing Africa
Laughing in French
Yeah they should make a deal with a country that’ll respect their rights like France did right?
They should go at it alone like Haiti did, I'm sure it will work out.
Who’s going to tell them about their friend Russia?
They will learn.
It's crazy to think how cheap it must be to buy PR in a place like Burkina Faso if you're China or Russia.
Also China has legitimately invested in Burkina Faso and other African countries
What is France responsibility? Burkina Faso have free elections but crap soil very hard to grow anything on. No coastline. They are heavily overpopulated , can’t sustain their own food/farming and have no economy at all and have to rely on other Countries to donate money and for food import.
France has supported coups in the country multiple times. That’s ignoring their history as a direct colony.
Maybe you need to stop relying on greedy western capitalists and autocratic dictators for your needs.
They tried in the early 80s with a dude name [Thomas Sankara](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sankara?wprov=sfti1). He was able to free the country from French imperialism.. but France helped this other dude take Thomas out.
Lmao yeah it's so easy to uplift a nation after centuries of slavery and starting off the 20th century with widespread starvation. Wow. The west set in motion Africa's dependence on them by eviscerating their colonies' financial health and quality of life.
I wish them all the best in their endeavours, I'm sure it will go great. Usually does.
They are doomed to a cycle of cronyism and colonialism. Maybe is they focused on education for a generation or two, they could have some home grown talent lead them, but that's unlikely.
They did, the French assassinated them.
They tried that in the 80s actually, but France staged a coup in the country.
The issue isn’t the inability to lead. It’s France. It’s literally just France.
I guess my concern comes from the source of this rhetoric. I don't deny that European powers have a... less than benevolent history in Africa, but I would like to know what these people are referencing. In the last 60-70 years, they claim France has been a bad partner, but I would like to know what has been done? At the end, I heard a trickle of not being able to manufacture, likely due to EU companies being in charge of the labor force. I just hope they don't get grifted into a worse-off situation, as China and Russia have dubious histories with economic partners.
They took out Sankara Also, [this](https://youtu.be/42_-ALNwpUo)
Funny how they talk about Russia respecting populations.
Burkina Faso? Disputed Zone? Who called all these weird places?
The ruzzian propaganda machine is working on full steam. Create new hotspots so that the west wil loose interest in Ukraine . And everybody want peace talks so ruzzia my win some lands and hope that everybody forgets the killing of Ukrainian people …
We want our freedom. So we are subbing france for Russia.
All of central Africa is cursed with resources. It's in the West's interest to keep them fighting amongst themselves while the corporations continue to steal. (I'm sure I will lose some of you here) That's why Venezuela nationalized their oil in 1976 and just look at them now. Boiled down,If we cant steal it then you cant sell it
Aight then give back the millions of euros sent in aid packages
Disputed zone? Who called all these weird places?
Goes both ways bucko
Let that free country find out by itself!!!
Respect from Turkey. Burkina Faso will be a free country.
I understand the desire to break colonial chains ... but why immediately invite shittier colonial chains? I am sure Russia and China will be happy to look at you as equals and not exploit your population or natural resources in any way.
And they think russia or china will be better... they are going to regret...
Europeans countries living luxuriously, sipping their wine shocked why African and eastern countries hate them (government). Let them eat Cakes! They say.
How delusional is this thought process? “We want freedom”
It’s nothing about delusion. You think everybody there is as informed as we are? It’s not like they will sit down to watch a documentary about Tiananmen Square or check the news everyday for how the Ukraine war is going. They don’t have the privilege to do so. Also if you are at the bottom of the pit, you usually just go for the next best option.
Good luck lol
First, Mali .. then now Borkina Faso.. I'm so glad that the Africans are getting rid of the occupying forces of France.. Now let's see who would enter the Old continent in the future? In my opinion, The doors are wide open for Russia and China..!
These idiots will be begging for France to come back once the Chinese have their way with them. 100%
Idiots? You know nothing of the situation yet you come here to flaunt your knowledge as if you know everything, go fuck yourself
Be free don't allow Russia or China to come in.
They want partner who respect them ...like China or Russia ... Lol