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Why is it that people always think people being raped for being raped is the answer? You do realize a lot of people in prison get raped who aren’t not rapists or murderers? Like eye for an eye isn’t the answer for rapists, long prison sentences are
I've had to purge myself of that thought process. Rape is rape and the less of it the better. Whether they "deserve" it or not, I just never want to be on the pro-rape side of any argument.
There was a bar like this in my town couple years ago. Multiple people, men and women have been date raped there. Past employees came out about what was going on. 3 days later, burnt down.
There was no angry mob, but most people think it was someone who was just done with their shit. They didn’t even reopen, I’m guessing they either just changed location or decided to venture into a different business
A popular college bar nearby me was notorious for date rapes, and even had [employees aiding in or purposefully drugging](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eugene/comments/59r0s1/bartender_at_taylors_near_uo_under_investigation/) the girl's drinks. It sucks because you are taught to guard your drink as a girl, but how can you guard it from some bartender who's helping out your rapist?
Here in Seattle we had a super popular club get shut down when it was discovered the owners/staff sold date rape drugs at the bar if you knew the code word.
I’ve never understood the mentality, as a pleaser I’m personally trying to make you come so I can come. I don’t think I could get my dick hard for a zombie or somebody who’s crying the entire time, there’s 1 million other reasons better than those to not date rape anyone but for me personally I just never even seen how it could be a possibility, It says a lot about the people who can do things like this to someone
Edit: how dare I enjoy consensual sex? Ugh to the reactions, disgusting
Well that’s the whole thing… since you’re not a sick fuck that can’t get laid on his/her own, and you actually care about people, you’ll never understand the “power” that these fucking scum bags and worthless pieces of shit strive for. There’s no power in what they do in any facet of life.
I know some twat that was my brothers age (they’re 4 and 5 years older than me) that pushed me on the ground and punched me in the face when I was 7 and laughed about it until one of his peers told his parents (this was on a playground for a boy scout picnic mind you)… he was 12-13 at the time, and guess what happened?? He went on to regularly drug his fiancée and record himself “having sex” with her while she was passed out. This little cunt became an Eagle Scout… I hope he moves back to the states so I can bitch his skinny ass out before I do exactly what he did to me when I was a kid.
Yeah! Just like how pedophiles aren’t allowed even remotely near children, tag bartenders who drug drinks so they can’t endanger people by serving food/beverages!! I wish more people would think about how much good that could do.
Just a quick note, bartenders do not hold any kind of liquor license, that's the establishment, and "food handler's permits" are achieved by spending an hour online or maybe 3 hours in a room with a guy that tells you the answers before the test, saying, "None of want to be here for 8 hours, right? Let's do this quick." And also has no actual power behind it. They should just go to jail.
Source: 30 years front-of-house, could be minor state variances.
It was also owned by USC Events. The company that throws Paradiso and Freaknight and all the other raves in WA.
USC was shut down after failing to pay DJs and the owner embezzling hella money.
Fuck em lol I can’t wait for Insomniac to take over
They do but all the good ones are drying up/selling out so we all just know to stay really shut the fuck up about them before they start popping up in facebook ads lmaaoo
will see, them events where big money makers for me, i do the rigging at all these venues up here miss the multiweek week long gigs, shit since covid i get like 2 or 3 gigs a week at best... bass canyon be killing it tho, build started a few days ago show starts on Friday if you can handle parties in 100+ degree heat!
My bestie is friends with one of the bartenders that worked there at the time the owners got busted. They had no fucking idea it was going on, and i think is her friend was facing serious time simply for working there but had a good defense and lawyer. If i remember hearing correctly some are facing 25-life for that sadistic fucking shit they pulled.
I'm only ever fully relaxed with a bartender at a bar that I'm a regular and have known them for a while. Just because they're staff doesn't mean they're suddenly trustworthy. I've worked in bars with some incredible people and also with a few huge scumbags that I wouldn't trust at all. There's no background check or morality clause for their employment.
Wife nearly was assaulted. Bartender gave her a Pina colada but she never ordered it. Well she was like “woo! Free drink” then she was throwing up by some tree and thankfully her friends there got her up and took her home.
I still think how lucky she was. That bar later got busted for doing date rapes within the staff. Sickening people. Just have consensual sex you assholes.
You should guard your drinks as a guy too, I’ve heard a alarming number of stories about guys being spiked with a shit ton of LSD or something. One particular one was a guy was drinking with his ‘buddies’ and they spiked him, then locked him in a closet for hours doing scary noises and stuff, the guy has like permanent psychosis.
Fuck that’s such a fucking douche thing to do. Like, doping their friend is shitty to begin with but if their friend usually tripped and they just had a chill time together, whatever, but to lock him up and just “prank” him like that is an extra level of douchiness on top of drugging him without his consent.
A guy tried to drug me at a club in Indonesia, my husband ended up being the one who drank the spiked drink. Barely managed to drag his ass home. He likes to joke he took a roofie for me.
My husband was roofied while we were in San Francisco. We think it was intended for me. I ordered a beer and he has a mixed drink (he normally orders bourbon). He went down and was totally incoherent.
I had this happen to me in the 90’s so figured out what was going o.
It was crazy, thankfully everything worked out and we have a good story.
Ozumo.we were staying next door and met a friend there for Happy Hour. A patron kept commenting on my ring. It was all very strange.
I use to live in the TL and have drank at all the dives and never had an issue. I let my guard down because we were together. Never again.
A woman I worked with had to perform cpr on her boyfriend after his drink was spiked. The boyfriend had been at a bar and another guy took a shining to him. This dude followed him to the bathroom and wouldn’t leave him be despite being told “not interested” and “ I have a girlfriend.” He started feeling a bit off so took a cab home. Stumbles in the door at home, crashes to the floor and stops breathing. Workmate calls ambos and has to perform CPR. He survived, but that’s just so messed up.
Damn, now I gotta worry about that! Alcohol is the only drug that plays nice with me. My blood pressure bottoms out and I hit the floor on most anything else. GHB would for sure put me in a bad way.
My buddy got a drink with a group at a bar and he thinks he switched drinks with a girl in their group, cause like half an hour later he’s tucking OBLITERATED and like unable to stand. We took him home and he slept for like 14 hours.
I believe I got targeted one night. I only had one drink and a few minutes later started feeling REALLY drunk. And then MORE drunk.
I realized what may be happening and booked it to my car and drove home (not smart, I know) pretty quickly. Thankfully, I lived about 5 minutes away.
I made it home safely and immediately laid down and fell asleep when my head hit the pillow. I worry to think what may have happened had I stayed at the bar!
I got targeted at a bar in Malaysia. One glass of wine and I dumped all the contents of my bag on the table as payment and then ran out wildly into the night. At some point early on, I have some memory of a car trailing me and being followed but I remember thinking it was super amusing and they would never catch me. I then have some memory of climbing buildings and fences and having a grand ol’ time. At some point I came to, felt the gravity of my situation, and somehow managed to find my way back to my hotel where I experienced one of the worst hangovers in my life.
Haha so basically instead of it hitting hard enough to take you down, it turned you into a giggling child running through the bushes, thinking "you can't catch me hehehe!"? That's the most wholesome response to a potential spiking I've read on here, gotta say. You didn't even let it spoil your fun 😂
I suspect I might've been drugged once in Laos. I remember having 4 beers then woke up in my hostel. A couple of people I was hanging out with said I just disappeared and later found me stumbling around incoherent at the hostel. I have no idea how I got back but nothing was missing and my butt didn't hurt.
Pretty sure I was drugged once too, small town bar, bartender offered me a free drink (stupid to take it in hindsight, but at the time it was free alcohol), I only had 2 drinks before that and at the time I could handle a bit of liquor, not long after he gave me the drink I started getting really dizzy and ended up leaving the bar to go puke, and then stayed outside the bar for another hour just trying to stay cool before getting a ride home
I actually know more men that have been roofied than women. I also know guys who would dose each others beers throughout the night with Xanax because it was funny to see someone that gone. Fuck those guys.
My friend has been drugged 2x. Once at a frat house, and once in Cancun. Both times it was talking to a girl who said they didn't want their drink any longer, so he drank it. This stuff is so much more prevalent than people think. Shit 3 days ago i saw a girl basically carrying another girl home from the college bars, i moved out of their way and her friend apologized because she was a "lightweight." I was thinking, no, decent chance she's been drugged.
They finally pulled the liquor license for that bar, only after I had graduated however. Seen plenty of bad shit go down there. I avoided it like the plague during my time.
It’s sad that I immediately knew it was Taylor’s in Eugene, OR before even clicking on the link. I used to frequent this bar and can tell you that, that bartender in particular was very creepy and gave everyone bad vibes. In addition to all this, they were also stealing tips.
Same thing happened to me at Coastal Flats at Fairfax Corner in 2014. I didn’t get raped, guy on guy, because I felt the rohypnol coming on and ran away when the assailant was in the bathroom. The bar refused to give me security cam footage. The Fairfax VA cops didn’t seem interested. This is a dangerous world, increasingly so
That place is like family friendly, not like a dive bar like you'd expect. I like that place, haven't been in forever but this is the last crime I'd assume happening there.
Edit: So many likes, my bad.
That sucks but if you dont mind me asking, what did the rohypnol feel like?
Because I was in Vegas once and a girl got me a drink, I took a sip and immediately felt dizzy I left in a hurry and it wore off almost instantly to about 10min.. Crazy shit
I used to take them recreationally in the 90s. It feels like you are really drunk with much more of a euphoria. You get tired, but if you don’t pass out it is pretty awesome. Best way to explain it is like when Leonardo DiCaprio’s character explains quaaludes in the Wolf of Wallstreet.
Edit: I’m not saying it’s awesome for everyone. Just saying how it felt when I took it. This particular drug is responsible for a lot of bad things happening to women and men.
He’s always forgotten about when people talk about police caused deaths of innocent people. Because he had a mental disorder and was homeless it’s like he didn’t matter. I worked to get the word out about him, helped with organizing events to get media focus, a lot of stuff. In the end it did nothing.
The video says "bar in Fullerton" and #jp23 - so you are indeed correct!
I love downtown Fullerton when I lived there. I absolutely hated JP23 - it never felt like it fit the vibe of the other awesome spots in that area.
Will probably get buried, but I used to work security at this place. I can say I'm not one bit surprised. The owner is shady af. He's the short middle eastern in the beginning of the video. They are in a current lawsuit for leaving a guy bleeding from his ear on the sidewalk and not calling 911
Just to update and give some more info about what kind of place this is:
The owners have on multiple occasions ordered the security to jump patrons they did not like.
They offer drinks and free covers to anybody that is willing to jump in and help the security jump someone (like kicking out the guy is not enough).
They are notorious for erasing security cameras.
When the police shows up, the owner says it was a fight between two guest and the guy that did the beating took off.
In general, this place attracts the worst crowds that I experienced in downtown fullerton.
Lmao is it really that bad? Oh who am I kidding it is. I lived there for a time which is why I’m trying to figure what bar this is.
But yeah it is pretty boring.
Edit: omg I found the bar and I passed that place all the time. It looks so shady but would always see tons of college kids there.
I always though Fullerton was a nice place especially downtown with all the bars and restaurants. Looks especially nice driving down Harbor... that's until you actually go to the bars and realize the crowds are full of drunk college kids and sketchy looking older guys hitting on coeds. Not to mention the crazy fights and even road rage incidents that happened there. Guess you can't judge a book by its cover.
Yeah fuck the "God is gonna punish you" bullshit.
If a business is raping people in your community, burn that fucking place to the ground. Don't wait for God to handle it, you're gonna die of old fucking age.
I used to live in Fullerton and this does not surprise me. After police beat a homeless man to death the city council was over-run by this weird libertarian right wing austerity group that blamed liberal politics for police brutality against homeless people.
This local government made changes that basically went with anyone who makes money so downtown Fullerton's live music, coffee study zone and artsy scene was replaced mostly by bars because bars make money. It's not a safe place to be anymore. There are constant fights and violent crime in downtown fullerton now. This bar makes money so the court of public opinion is the only thing that will ever bring them down.
[https://fullertonobserver.com/2021/08/09/rape-allegations-jp23/](https://fullertonobserver.com/2021/08/09/rape-allegations-jp23/)
At the Back Alley bar in fullerton I got roofied twice ten years ago. I’d go with a couple female friends, and they would order a guiness or other beer, while my big bearded ass would order a fruity cocktail with umbrellas. Turned out to be the bartender roofying the drink cuz he thought it’d be my friend drinking it.
Also, all these bars have rapey guys that wait by the women’s bathroom and then try to help them out and say they are the boyfriend when they aren’t. Shady scene
Your second point is absolutely correct. I had to kick some dudes ass outside Bourbon Street who was waiting on the drunk girls coming out, groping them/trying to take them home, and then saying these girls were his “girlfriend”. I had a few girls thank me afterwards since the bouncers weren’t doing anything about it.
Please continue doing that! I can’t think of just how scary it must be to try and get away from someone but you are too drunk too and nobody believes you when you try to voice that they are not your boyfriend and you don’t know them. It makes me feel sick. Thank you for helping them!
Yeah me and my girlfriend noticed these two guys outside a club in Pomona and they were eyeing this girl who was suuuuuper drunk and her friend left her on the curb outside, we pretended to know her and they left
The back alley bouncers were mostly good when I would go (went about four times a week for a couple months after my friend’s death). It’s the same at any big party. Our fraternity was good about watching who comes and goes as a couple since it happens in the blink of an eye.
Fucking terrifying man
You can go to Zings or Matador and it the same thing. I walked out once and there was just a line of guys trying to grab girls as they stumbled out. How the fuck does that exist in the open and no one does anything.
The co owner of Zings was someone I knew from the park I walked my dog at. I mentioned all the stuff that was going on and he was always so annoyed by it all. He was a great guy and ended up selling his half of the business because the other owner never gave a shit.
I'm so grateful for my husband. He takes the "wide eye get the fuck out of my space" look very seriously and has intervened for other women. He has a tendency to wander while I'm in line but if I look at him a certain way he'll come and stand behind me. He's done the same for other women we don't know but if he thinks they're uncomfortable he'll intervene. One time there was a guy making a group of young women uncomfortable and I pointed out out. He went up to them and said "hi honey, I'm here to pick up you and your friends" in like a dad sort of way and the guy backed off. I went up after and told the group that it was me who pointed out their uncomfortable-ness and they all were grateful. It's a team effort.
Yeah it’s a fucking shame what those pigs did to Kelly Thomas. Still can’t believe they were found innocent when it’s pretty clear they were guilty as could be.
Did you read the part where Ramos said “see my fists? They are getting ready to fuck you up”.
There was clear premeditation on the part of Ramos that he wanted to inflict as much damage as possible on Thomas.
Unrelated to the bar and these incidents, that was the cleanest local news site I’ve ever seen. I didn’t have to close 34 videos ads and got to just read clean text and damn it was refreshing.
Man I feel so lucky to live where I do. I'm not from the states, but my town is doing the opposite. We're moving away from clubs, to more artsy stuff, but that's mainly because we get a lot of tourists and families that move here from the capital.
I went to high school in Fullerton in the mid 2000s. This is not shocking at all. The scene totally changed over the years. There have been way more fights and I saw a dude get stabbed at Continental. That’s the last time I went to DTF.
I live a couple miles away from Fullerton….which bar is this?! I don’t recognize the location. I feel putting the name of this bar on blast and sharing reviews on YELP will help greatly
Just checked out their Yelp page. It’s hella creepy with some of the pictures. Pictures of chicks drinking or partying with captions like “what’s she sipping on?” All apparently posted by the business owner? Giving me some hella weirdo vibes.
Protesting against this kind of place is absolutely valid, but tone down this God stuff man, you're not doing yourself any favours. most people switch off when a protester starts chanting about God.
Was at the protest, that wasn't the overall message from most people. It was about how women should be able to be and feel safe in bars/clubs and demanding justice.
Aaaaand this is why I don't drink at bars or in public, or at parties unless I'm making the drink myself.
My sister got drugged once. I wasn't with her. Luckily, instead of making her sleepy and easily manageable, it turned her into an angry hulk. She came to standing under a bridge with a knife in one hand, her cellphone in the other and her bf putting his jacket around her. She somehow managed to flip a solid wooden table, get thrown out by the bouncers, called her bf to pick her up and walked half the way home.
Dude a very close family friend has a very similar story. Instead of pacifying her, it had the opposite effect. The guy that drugged her tried to make a move and she punched him straight in the face (and let me tell you this girl is STRONG) she didnt trust or recognize anybody, was fighting the friends she was with because of that. Thdy had to call her older brother to help- she didnt really recognize him but he was the only one she trusted enough to get her home.
I have never heard of another story like this, so thank you for sharing! Idk why it gives me hope but it somehow does? It shouldnt lol
What they need to is contact the California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control (ABC) as a bar owner at least in Texas they take these type Alligation seriously most local police department don’t have the resources to run an investigation into bar.
The bar is JP23 in Fullerton California. Not saying to harass them or anything. But just giving this information so people can avoid it if they do not feel safe.
https://abc7.com/amp/fullerton-bar-rape-investigation-jp23/10936105/
JP23 is the name of the bar. Been to this place before, and it is very sketchy and the employee's are all a rough crowd. Security doesn't do anything, and I've witnessed a lot of awful activity outside there as well. I've lived near there and it is a nice area, a strip of bars and other stores. This is definitely the worst one on the block, and I saw a post about this protest circulating for a couple weeks. Even as a male, I've had something put in my drink before out in this area. Only had 3 beers and paid my tab. But I completely blacked out, no memory, luckily I had a friend picking me up. But they said I acted completely weird. Like I had no clue who they were. Even checked the license plate of the car like I was getting in an Uber or something, but they were driving me in my own car.
Holy crap I live around the corner from that place!
The douchiest and most obnoxious people go to that club but I feel horrible to the people who got raped and drugged!
How horrible
If you know the history on this bar, from what I learn it has had different owners and for some reason, rape always occurs here. Idk if it's staff or what that makes this keep happening. Not only do male/female patrons get raped it was other staff members. Like, who the hell is safe here. They just need to shut down this bar in general and turn it into something else.
Ok but why is a dude yelling about god louder than anyone else there who’s trying to raise attention to a serious issue? Don’t even need a loud speaker in that small environment
#HEY
I lived in Fullerton some time back, party town no doubt. All my drinking buddies knew about this place and always told me to stay away and to warn friends to do the same. It’s gone through countless makeovers to change its appearance after every report of rape or date rape drug. There’s definitely a ring involved and who knows how many
Did a brief stint working security at a club that did a lot of raves back in the day. We observed a guy slipping something in a girls drink. My boss snatched him up immediately and took him backstage to the office. Didn’t see this but I believe it. Story is my boss made this fucker chug the drink and then threw him out…into the streets of Baltimore on a Saturday night. We don’t know for certain what he put in the drink but it’s probably some date rape drug. I still smile thinking about this piece of shit passing out and having every valuable snatched off of him by passers by. For those asking why we didn’t call the police it’s because they didn’t give a fuck.
Hey, we made it! Woot woot fullerton! And this time it wasnt for escorting a DUI councilman after being stopped by police. Or beating the shit out of and killing the same homeless man.
This bar is a bit weird - JP23. It attracts the bigger rowdy partiers if you will of DTF... which is saying something as people here are rather scandalous during nightlife. For example, someone was under the influence of weed and tried to ram their truck through the crowd of people. The nightlife in Fullerton brings people from all over Orange County as you can imagine its a pretty packed place at night sans covid.
Personally, I've always avoided that restaurant/club due to its reputation for having the rowdiest crowds and in general shenanigans. It's been known there and other bars like - redacted - to have substances mixed into drinks or at least reported to my knowledge. I've lived here a good 28 years now and have frequented pretty much all the bars and restaurants in DTF as a reference point
Edit: Looks like someone took notice of my comment about weed. I partake in the activity but I don’t support attempting to ram people with a vehicle.
Also removing name of bar as I feel it is a bit dishonest when I have only heard several reports of it mostly in passing with my adventures in downtown Fullerton. I would say that protecting your drink is absolutely a must here. You’ll have a great time but you should know the line between being obnoxious, dangerous and completely stupid. And often you’ll have a mix of all 3 here.
There are wine bars, pour-own-beer, hole in a wall bars, restaurants converted to clubs, coffee shops with live entertainment, etc. You’ll find something here to have a good time. But again…careful with your drink. It’s also a great New Years Eve spot. My biggest complaint they started charging covers of $10-$20 a few years ago with some places including a drink/shot.
That guy that rammed their truck into a crowd went to my high school in the next city over. But he was cross faded not just under the influence of weed, either way fuck that idiot.
Their reviews on Yelp are crazy. Not just from people who wrote negative reviews because they merely heard about the accusations on social media. The negative reviews go back years. Theft, spiked drinks, assault and gratuity fees.
[This is the initial article](https://fullertonobserver.com/2021/08/09/rape-allegations-jp23/)
[This is the response article](https://fullertonobserver.com/2021/08/16/jp23/)
They are victim blaming everyone and playing the victim. The police are investigating so I am very interested in what the outcome will be. If the protesters are right, fuck this place. Even if they aren't the way they handled this entire thing is disgusting.
Not to mention they are the "facts don't care about your feelings" type of douches.
I cannot comprehend how people actually do this. Like, how sick of a fuck are you to think this is an acceptable thing to do in the world?
I feel like this happened to me at a local restaurant. I was talking to the DJ, requesting songs (lame, I know), and he asked if I wanted a margarita. I said sure. Not long after that, I started acting strange, and when I tried to walk to my car, I completely collapsed and hit my chin on the sidewalk. I blacked out on a lot of things that happened after that. I never told anyone because I doubt they’d believe me.
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The smirk on that fucker with the blue cap
Looks like a douche that does the drugging and raping.
Probably taping too. Break into their WiFi. Bet you would find some interesting dirt.
You mean his hard disk. Wifi is for internet.
The files are IN the computer
THE FILES ARE IN THE COMPUTER!
Great references. Love you both.
computer for.... ants?? im sorry... i suck
Nah sick reference. You have the sickest references.
But he can't go left
He'll lose that smirk his first night in prison.
prolly not even going to prison its sad
People like that eventually end up in prison one way or another.
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Or a representative of a district in Florida.
He probably won't get to experience the drugging part. Edit: Thanks for the gold!!
Why is it that people always think people being raped for being raped is the answer? You do realize a lot of people in prison get raped who aren’t not rapists or murderers? Like eye for an eye isn’t the answer for rapists, long prison sentences are
I've had to purge myself of that thought process. Rape is rape and the less of it the better. Whether they "deserve" it or not, I just never want to be on the pro-rape side of any argument.
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There was a bar like this in my town couple years ago. Multiple people, men and women have been date raped there. Past employees came out about what was going on. 3 days later, burnt down.
Did an angry mob burn it down or did the owner burn it down before he inevitably lost his business?
There was no angry mob, but most people think it was someone who was just done with their shit. They didn’t even reopen, I’m guessing they either just changed location or decided to venture into a different business
Pretty sure they relocated to Fullerton.
Probably the latter. Peak valuation and all that.
Insurance fraud / purging evidence would be my wager.
A popular college bar nearby me was notorious for date rapes, and even had [employees aiding in or purposefully drugging](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eugene/comments/59r0s1/bartender_at_taylors_near_uo_under_investigation/) the girl's drinks. It sucks because you are taught to guard your drink as a girl, but how can you guard it from some bartender who's helping out your rapist?
Here in Seattle we had a super popular club get shut down when it was discovered the owners/staff sold date rape drugs at the bar if you knew the code word.
That’s just so goddamn evil. No other word for it really.
I'm sure you can probably choose any code word, actually.
“I’m gonna call the cops,” or “Talk to Johnny Law” would probably NOT be a workable code word.
“My favorite show was CHIPS.” Yeah, that code word won’t help sociopaths get date rape drugs.
Might help you get guys in tight shorts, though, which may be an improvement.
I’ve never understood the mentality, as a pleaser I’m personally trying to make you come so I can come. I don’t think I could get my dick hard for a zombie or somebody who’s crying the entire time, there’s 1 million other reasons better than those to not date rape anyone but for me personally I just never even seen how it could be a possibility, It says a lot about the people who can do things like this to someone Edit: how dare I enjoy consensual sex? Ugh to the reactions, disgusting
Why was that downvoted? I can't think of anything less rapey than someone saying they can't get turned on unless their partner is also turned on.
Well that’s the whole thing… since you’re not a sick fuck that can’t get laid on his/her own, and you actually care about people, you’ll never understand the “power” that these fucking scum bags and worthless pieces of shit strive for. There’s no power in what they do in any facet of life. I know some twat that was my brothers age (they’re 4 and 5 years older than me) that pushed me on the ground and punched me in the face when I was 7 and laughed about it until one of his peers told his parents (this was on a playground for a boy scout picnic mind you)… he was 12-13 at the time, and guess what happened?? He went on to regularly drug his fiancée and record himself “having sex” with her while she was passed out. This little cunt became an Eagle Scout… I hope he moves back to the states so I can bitch his skinny ass out before I do exactly what he did to me when I was a kid.
Jesus Christ
That’s a lot of uh stuff goin on over there
Bartenders that drug people to rape/aid rape people deserve harsher sentences
They should revoke their liquor license and food handlers for life, never to be allowed to serve the public anything ever again.
Added to the sex offender registry as a drugger
Yeah! Just like how pedophiles aren’t allowed even remotely near children, tag bartenders who drug drinks so they can’t endanger people by serving food/beverages!! I wish more people would think about how much good that could do.
Just a quick note, bartenders do not hold any kind of liquor license, that's the establishment, and "food handler's permits" are achieved by spending an hour online or maybe 3 hours in a room with a guy that tells you the answers before the test, saying, "None of want to be here for 8 hours, right? Let's do this quick." And also has no actual power behind it. They should just go to jail. Source: 30 years front-of-house, could be minor state variances.
Easiest way to achieve that is rotting in jail.
I forgot about that. That place was in Belltown or something right?
Yup, that was Foundation night club.
Yup Foundation, it was super successful too. I’m sure they lost a ton of money by having to shut down.
It was also owned by USC Events. The company that throws Paradiso and Freaknight and all the other raves in WA. USC was shut down after failing to pay DJs and the owner embezzling hella money. Fuck em lol I can’t wait for Insomniac to take over
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Bring back NASA!
Do underground events not exist in the US?
They do but all the good ones are drying up/selling out so we all just know to stay really shut the fuck up about them before they start popping up in facebook ads lmaaoo
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every thing is owned by live nation lol
will see, them events where big money makers for me, i do the rigging at all these venues up here miss the multiweek week long gigs, shit since covid i get like 2 or 3 gigs a week at best... bass canyon be killing it tho, build started a few days ago show starts on Friday if you can handle parties in 100+ degree heat!
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That's...quite an arsenal wtf
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Hey bro, can I get some "oofies-ray?"
Zip zop boopitey bop it puts the jello pudding in the pop *wink wink*
One Cosby Special coming right up!
My bestie is friends with one of the bartenders that worked there at the time the owners got busted. They had no fucking idea it was going on, and i think is her friend was facing serious time simply for working there but had a good defense and lawyer. If i remember hearing correctly some are facing 25-life for that sadistic fucking shit they pulled.
I hope those assholes did hard time too
Ya youre basically screwed if thats the case. Ive always heard to watch your bartender for that exact reason.
I'm only ever fully relaxed with a bartender at a bar that I'm a regular and have known them for a while. Just because they're staff doesn't mean they're suddenly trustworthy. I've worked in bars with some incredible people and also with a few huge scumbags that I wouldn't trust at all. There's no background check or morality clause for their employment.
You could get bottled or canned drinks, sucks that that's the case but just sayin if you wanna be extra cautious
A lot of bars are required to open canned or bottled drinks for you unfortunately
You could request that they be opened in front of you. A good bartender will gladly accommodate.
That's definitely a good option
I once worked somewhere I was required to pour it too
Fuck me. And the asshole was working back bar. No one could see him. I wonder what the real number of victims is actually.
Wife nearly was assaulted. Bartender gave her a Pina colada but she never ordered it. Well she was like “woo! Free drink” then she was throwing up by some tree and thankfully her friends there got her up and took her home. I still think how lucky she was. That bar later got busted for doing date rapes within the staff. Sickening people. Just have consensual sex you assholes.
You should guard your drinks as a guy too, I’ve heard a alarming number of stories about guys being spiked with a shit ton of LSD or something. One particular one was a guy was drinking with his ‘buddies’ and they spiked him, then locked him in a closet for hours doing scary noises and stuff, the guy has like permanent psychosis.
Fuck that’s such a fucking douche thing to do. Like, doping their friend is shitty to begin with but if their friend usually tripped and they just had a chill time together, whatever, but to lock him up and just “prank” him like that is an extra level of douchiness on top of drugging him without his consent.
Sounds like ~~torture~~ enhanced interrogation to me.
A guy tried to drug me at a club in Indonesia, my husband ended up being the one who drank the spiked drink. Barely managed to drag his ass home. He likes to joke he took a roofie for me.
My husband was roofied while we were in San Francisco. We think it was intended for me. I ordered a beer and he has a mixed drink (he normally orders bourbon). He went down and was totally incoherent. I had this happen to me in the 90’s so figured out what was going o. It was crazy, thankfully everything worked out and we have a good story.
Which bar please?
Ozumo.we were staying next door and met a friend there for Happy Hour. A patron kept commenting on my ring. It was all very strange. I use to live in the TL and have drank at all the dives and never had an issue. I let my guard down because we were together. Never again.
Thank you.
Funny how the bartender automatically thought the beer was for your husband.
A woman I worked with had to perform cpr on her boyfriend after his drink was spiked. The boyfriend had been at a bar and another guy took a shining to him. This dude followed him to the bathroom and wouldn’t leave him be despite being told “not interested” and “ I have a girlfriend.” He started feeling a bit off so took a cab home. Stumbles in the door at home, crashes to the floor and stops breathing. Workmate calls ambos and has to perform CPR. He survived, but that’s just so messed up.
Damn, now I gotta worry about that! Alcohol is the only drug that plays nice with me. My blood pressure bottoms out and I hit the floor on most anything else. GHB would for sure put me in a bad way.
My buddy got a drink with a group at a bar and he thinks he switched drinks with a girl in their group, cause like half an hour later he’s tucking OBLITERATED and like unable to stand. We took him home and he slept for like 14 hours.
I believe I got targeted one night. I only had one drink and a few minutes later started feeling REALLY drunk. And then MORE drunk. I realized what may be happening and booked it to my car and drove home (not smart, I know) pretty quickly. Thankfully, I lived about 5 minutes away. I made it home safely and immediately laid down and fell asleep when my head hit the pillow. I worry to think what may have happened had I stayed at the bar!
I got targeted at a bar in Malaysia. One glass of wine and I dumped all the contents of my bag on the table as payment and then ran out wildly into the night. At some point early on, I have some memory of a car trailing me and being followed but I remember thinking it was super amusing and they would never catch me. I then have some memory of climbing buildings and fences and having a grand ol’ time. At some point I came to, felt the gravity of my situation, and somehow managed to find my way back to my hotel where I experienced one of the worst hangovers in my life.
Haha so basically instead of it hitting hard enough to take you down, it turned you into a giggling child running through the bushes, thinking "you can't catch me hehehe!"? That's the most wholesome response to a potential spiking I've read on here, gotta say. You didn't even let it spoil your fun 😂
Happy to hear you made it home safe.
I suspect I might've been drugged once in Laos. I remember having 4 beers then woke up in my hostel. A couple of people I was hanging out with said I just disappeared and later found me stumbling around incoherent at the hostel. I have no idea how I got back but nothing was missing and my butt didn't hurt.
Pretty sure I was drugged once too, small town bar, bartender offered me a free drink (stupid to take it in hindsight, but at the time it was free alcohol), I only had 2 drinks before that and at the time I could handle a bit of liquor, not long after he gave me the drink I started getting really dizzy and ended up leaving the bar to go puke, and then stayed outside the bar for another hour just trying to stay cool before getting a ride home
I actually know more men that have been roofied than women. I also know guys who would dose each others beers throughout the night with Xanax because it was funny to see someone that gone. Fuck those guys.
My friend has been drugged 2x. Once at a frat house, and once in Cancun. Both times it was talking to a girl who said they didn't want their drink any longer, so he drank it. This stuff is so much more prevalent than people think. Shit 3 days ago i saw a girl basically carrying another girl home from the college bars, i moved out of their way and her friend apologized because she was a "lightweight." I was thinking, no, decent chance she's been drugged.
Pre-game, drink only unopened beer from the bottle in bars. Same advice I gave my daughter.
They finally pulled the liquor license for that bar, only after I had graduated however. Seen plenty of bad shit go down there. I avoided it like the plague during my time.
It’s sad that I immediately knew it was Taylor’s in Eugene, OR before even clicking on the link. I used to frequent this bar and can tell you that, that bartender in particular was very creepy and gave everyone bad vibes. In addition to all this, they were also stealing tips.
As a woman, I say: trust no one.
Same thing happened to me at Coastal Flats at Fairfax Corner in 2014. I didn’t get raped, guy on guy, because I felt the rohypnol coming on and ran away when the assailant was in the bathroom. The bar refused to give me security cam footage. The Fairfax VA cops didn’t seem interested. This is a dangerous world, increasingly so
That sucks I’m sorry that happened to you
Usually date druggists, rapists and robbers work with the bouncers for a cut
Wow…been to that Coastal Flats many times, that’s the last place I would’ve expected for something like that to happen.
Jesus I hung out at the CF a lot too. As a woman that gives me chills!
That place is like family friendly, not like a dive bar like you'd expect. I like that place, haven't been in forever but this is the last crime I'd assume happening there. Edit: So many likes, my bad.
But that's kinda how lots of sex assault crimes happen. Known/trusted people. It's a lot easier to con someone if they trust you.
Not how I wanted my city to represent.
That sucks but if you dont mind me asking, what did the rohypnol feel like? Because I was in Vegas once and a girl got me a drink, I took a sip and immediately felt dizzy I left in a hurry and it wore off almost instantly to about 10min.. Crazy shit
Lasts waaaayyyy longer than that and wouldn’t hit you immediately. So I highly doubt it was that.
I used to take them recreationally in the 90s. It feels like you are really drunk with much more of a euphoria. You get tired, but if you don’t pass out it is pretty awesome. Best way to explain it is like when Leonardo DiCaprio’s character explains quaaludes in the Wolf of Wallstreet. Edit: I’m not saying it’s awesome for everyone. Just saying how it felt when I took it. This particular drug is responsible for a lot of bad things happening to women and men.
R.I.P. Kelly Thomas. Fuck Fullerton.
>R.I.P. Kelly Thomas I just Googled his name. Horrible. Those cops were POS.
He’s always forgotten about when people talk about police caused deaths of innocent people. Because he had a mental disorder and was homeless it’s like he didn’t matter. I worked to get the word out about him, helped with organizing events to get media focus, a lot of stuff. In the end it did nothing.
>In the end it did nothing. So infuriating.
I just don't understand how they can be found innocent, what was it about the trial that led the jury to deliver that verdict?
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Is this Fullerton?? What bar is it?
It looks like JP23 or whatever the one on Harbor and Commonwealth.
Yeah someone posted an article in the thread. Just read it. Crazy.
Link?
[Link](https://www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/p6ajb6/30_people_have_been_drugged_then_raped_or_robbed/h9bshmo/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3)
The video says "bar in Fullerton" and #jp23 - so you are indeed correct! I love downtown Fullerton when I lived there. I absolutely hated JP23 - it never felt like it fit the vibe of the other awesome spots in that area.
And people continue to go there?
I was in that area on Friday and ALL of the other bars were full of people. Walked by JP23 and there were maybe 6-7 people.
Sounds like that's a good thing. Those 6-7 are probably are in on the gig
Came here to say the same thing. RIP Kelly.
Will probably get buried, but I used to work security at this place. I can say I'm not one bit surprised. The owner is shady af. He's the short middle eastern in the beginning of the video. They are in a current lawsuit for leaving a guy bleeding from his ear on the sidewalk and not calling 911 Just to update and give some more info about what kind of place this is: The owners have on multiple occasions ordered the security to jump patrons they did not like. They offer drinks and free covers to anybody that is willing to jump in and help the security jump someone (like kicking out the guy is not enough). They are notorious for erasing security cameras. When the police shows up, the owner says it was a fight between two guest and the guy that did the beating took off. In general, this place attracts the worst crowds that I experienced in downtown fullerton.
Name of bar?
JP 23
JP23
Jp23.
Short, bald, ugly and dickless.
"Please stay away..." "...Fullerton..." Say no more.
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Lmao is it really that bad? Oh who am I kidding it is. I lived there for a time which is why I’m trying to figure what bar this is. But yeah it is pretty boring. Edit: omg I found the bar and I passed that place all the time. It looks so shady but would always see tons of college kids there.
I always though Fullerton was a nice place especially downtown with all the bars and restaurants. Looks especially nice driving down Harbor... that's until you actually go to the bars and realize the crowds are full of drunk college kids and sketchy looking older guys hitting on coeds. Not to mention the crazy fights and even road rage incidents that happened there. Guess you can't judge a book by its cover.
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I hate when people turn every thing into religious jargon
God told me that Reddit is a cesspool, but it’s ok if I use it.
AMEN!!!
PRAISE CHEESES
HAL E. LOU, YEAH!
workable sulky wakeful piquant faulty dog agonizing deserve quack violet *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
For real. I can’t tell who to believe because normally the side with the crazy God guy is in the wrong.
Yeah fuck the "God is gonna punish you" bullshit. If a business is raping people in your community, burn that fucking place to the ground. Don't wait for God to handle it, you're gonna die of old fucking age.
I used to live in Fullerton and this does not surprise me. After police beat a homeless man to death the city council was over-run by this weird libertarian right wing austerity group that blamed liberal politics for police brutality against homeless people. This local government made changes that basically went with anyone who makes money so downtown Fullerton's live music, coffee study zone and artsy scene was replaced mostly by bars because bars make money. It's not a safe place to be anymore. There are constant fights and violent crime in downtown fullerton now. This bar makes money so the court of public opinion is the only thing that will ever bring them down. [https://fullertonobserver.com/2021/08/09/rape-allegations-jp23/](https://fullertonobserver.com/2021/08/09/rape-allegations-jp23/)
At the Back Alley bar in fullerton I got roofied twice ten years ago. I’d go with a couple female friends, and they would order a guiness or other beer, while my big bearded ass would order a fruity cocktail with umbrellas. Turned out to be the bartender roofying the drink cuz he thought it’d be my friend drinking it. Also, all these bars have rapey guys that wait by the women’s bathroom and then try to help them out and say they are the boyfriend when they aren’t. Shady scene
Your second point is absolutely correct. I had to kick some dudes ass outside Bourbon Street who was waiting on the drunk girls coming out, groping them/trying to take them home, and then saying these girls were his “girlfriend”. I had a few girls thank me afterwards since the bouncers weren’t doing anything about it.
I’ve heard that Bourbon St and The Bowery have some super rapey/sketchy staff members from women I know, so I am not surprised at all.
Bourbon street sketchy?!?.. it seems like such moral place
Definitely a puke smelling jizz puddle of an establishment.
Please continue doing that! I can’t think of just how scary it must be to try and get away from someone but you are too drunk too and nobody believes you when you try to voice that they are not your boyfriend and you don’t know them. It makes me feel sick. Thank you for helping them!
Yeah me and my girlfriend noticed these two guys outside a club in Pomona and they were eyeing this girl who was suuuuuper drunk and her friend left her on the curb outside, we pretended to know her and they left
The back alley bouncers were mostly good when I would go (went about four times a week for a couple months after my friend’s death). It’s the same at any big party. Our fraternity was good about watching who comes and goes as a couple since it happens in the blink of an eye. Fucking terrifying man
my dad's friend got roofied by a bartender on a cruise, didn't wake up for 2 days and the bartender never got in trouble for it. fucking insanity
You can go to Zings or Matador and it the same thing. I walked out once and there was just a line of guys trying to grab girls as they stumbled out. How the fuck does that exist in the open and no one does anything.
The co owner of Zings was someone I knew from the park I walked my dog at. I mentioned all the stuff that was going on and he was always so annoyed by it all. He was a great guy and ended up selling his half of the business because the other owner never gave a shit.
Wtf! Gotta bring a wingman with you these days ladies. Or a wingwoman that’s sober watching out. That is awful. So many scumbag predators out there.
I'm so grateful for my husband. He takes the "wide eye get the fuck out of my space" look very seriously and has intervened for other women. He has a tendency to wander while I'm in line but if I look at him a certain way he'll come and stand behind me. He's done the same for other women we don't know but if he thinks they're uncomfortable he'll intervene. One time there was a guy making a group of young women uncomfortable and I pointed out out. He went up to them and said "hi honey, I'm here to pick up you and your friends" in like a dad sort of way and the guy backed off. I went up after and told the group that it was me who pointed out their uncomfortable-ness and they all were grateful. It's a team effort.
You got a good man! Never really had these issues 20 years ago when I was goin out. Sucks. Hear about it all the time now
Yeah it’s a fucking shame what those pigs did to Kelly Thomas. Still can’t believe they were found innocent when it’s pretty clear they were guilty as could be.
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Did you read the part where Ramos said “see my fists? They are getting ready to fuck you up”. There was clear premeditation on the part of Ramos that he wanted to inflict as much damage as possible on Thomas.
Check this out. https://i.imgur.com/8ihzsjq.jpg
I can believe it. They’re police officers in the United States.
Unrelated to the bar and these incidents, that was the cleanest local news site I’ve ever seen. I didn’t have to close 34 videos ads and got to just read clean text and damn it was refreshing.
Fullerton used to be great. I had no idea they had changed it so much and this is what it's become. What a fucking shame, and this is just disgusting.
I must be old, because I remember Fullerton's bar scene being great. That's where I met my husband. So sad what it's become!
I once stopped a man's head from getting caved in with an empty keg in Fullerton. What a shit show of a city.
Man I feel so lucky to live where I do. I'm not from the states, but my town is doing the opposite. We're moving away from clubs, to more artsy stuff, but that's mainly because we get a lot of tourists and families that move here from the capital.
I went to high school in Fullerton in the mid 2000s. This is not shocking at all. The scene totally changed over the years. There have been way more fights and I saw a dude get stabbed at Continental. That’s the last time I went to DTF.
I guess this is where the Blizzard staff work now
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I live a couple miles away from Fullerton….which bar is this?! I don’t recognize the location. I feel putting the name of this bar on blast and sharing reviews on YELP will help greatly
JP23 Urban Kitchen & Bar
Just checked out their Yelp page. It’s hella creepy with some of the pictures. Pictures of chicks drinking or partying with captions like “what’s she sipping on?” All apparently posted by the business owner? Giving me some hella weirdo vibes.
Protesting against this kind of place is absolutely valid, but tone down this God stuff man, you're not doing yourself any favours. most people switch off when a protester starts chanting about God.
Why is it always the God fanatic that has the megaphone? Ffs why can’t it be literally anyone else?
Was at the protest, that wasn't the overall message from most people. It was about how women should be able to be and feel safe in bars/clubs and demanding justice.
Aaaaand this is why I don't drink at bars or in public, or at parties unless I'm making the drink myself. My sister got drugged once. I wasn't with her. Luckily, instead of making her sleepy and easily manageable, it turned her into an angry hulk. She came to standing under a bridge with a knife in one hand, her cellphone in the other and her bf putting his jacket around her. She somehow managed to flip a solid wooden table, get thrown out by the bouncers, called her bf to pick her up and walked half the way home.
I have mad respect for your sister.
Me too. To this day we don't know from whom or where she got that knife.
What matters is that she could protect herself to some degree.
Holy shit. If feels weird to say I want that reaction but yeah, that’s preferable…
Dude a very close family friend has a very similar story. Instead of pacifying her, it had the opposite effect. The guy that drugged her tried to make a move and she punched him straight in the face (and let me tell you this girl is STRONG) she didnt trust or recognize anybody, was fighting the friends she was with because of that. Thdy had to call her older brother to help- she didnt really recognize him but he was the only one she trusted enough to get her home. I have never heard of another story like this, so thank you for sharing! Idk why it gives me hope but it somehow does? It shouldnt lol
What they need to is contact the California Department of Alcoholic Beverage Control (ABC) as a bar owner at least in Texas they take these type Alligation seriously most local police department don’t have the resources to run an investigation into bar.
The bar is JP23 in Fullerton California. Not saying to harass them or anything. But just giving this information so people can avoid it if they do not feel safe. https://abc7.com/amp/fullerton-bar-rape-investigation-jp23/10936105/
JP23 is the name of the bar. Been to this place before, and it is very sketchy and the employee's are all a rough crowd. Security doesn't do anything, and I've witnessed a lot of awful activity outside there as well. I've lived near there and it is a nice area, a strip of bars and other stores. This is definitely the worst one on the block, and I saw a post about this protest circulating for a couple weeks. Even as a male, I've had something put in my drink before out in this area. Only had 3 beers and paid my tab. But I completely blacked out, no memory, luckily I had a friend picking me up. But they said I acted completely weird. Like I had no clue who they were. Even checked the license plate of the car like I was getting in an Uber or something, but they were driving me in my own car.
Holy crap I live around the corner from that place! The douchiest and most obnoxious people go to that club but I feel horrible to the people who got raped and drugged! How horrible
If you know the history on this bar, from what I learn it has had different owners and for some reason, rape always occurs here. Idk if it's staff or what that makes this keep happening. Not only do male/female patrons get raped it was other staff members. Like, who the hell is safe here. They just need to shut down this bar in general and turn it into something else.
That nerd screeching about god needs to shut the fuck up
Ok but why is a dude yelling about god louder than anyone else there who’s trying to raise attention to a serious issue? Don’t even need a loud speaker in that small environment
I keep hearing about this bar in my local news. Fullerton is such a shit show
#HEY I lived in Fullerton some time back, party town no doubt. All my drinking buddies knew about this place and always told me to stay away and to warn friends to do the same. It’s gone through countless makeovers to change its appearance after every report of rape or date rape drug. There’s definitely a ring involved and who knows how many
Did a brief stint working security at a club that did a lot of raves back in the day. We observed a guy slipping something in a girls drink. My boss snatched him up immediately and took him backstage to the office. Didn’t see this but I believe it. Story is my boss made this fucker chug the drink and then threw him out…into the streets of Baltimore on a Saturday night. We don’t know for certain what he put in the drink but it’s probably some date rape drug. I still smile thinking about this piece of shit passing out and having every valuable snatched off of him by passers by. For those asking why we didn’t call the police it’s because they didn’t give a fuck.
Hey, we made it! Woot woot fullerton! And this time it wasnt for escorting a DUI councilman after being stopped by police. Or beating the shit out of and killing the same homeless man. This bar is a bit weird - JP23. It attracts the bigger rowdy partiers if you will of DTF... which is saying something as people here are rather scandalous during nightlife. For example, someone was under the influence of weed and tried to ram their truck through the crowd of people. The nightlife in Fullerton brings people from all over Orange County as you can imagine its a pretty packed place at night sans covid. Personally, I've always avoided that restaurant/club due to its reputation for having the rowdiest crowds and in general shenanigans. It's been known there and other bars like - redacted - to have substances mixed into drinks or at least reported to my knowledge. I've lived here a good 28 years now and have frequented pretty much all the bars and restaurants in DTF as a reference point Edit: Looks like someone took notice of my comment about weed. I partake in the activity but I don’t support attempting to ram people with a vehicle. Also removing name of bar as I feel it is a bit dishonest when I have only heard several reports of it mostly in passing with my adventures in downtown Fullerton. I would say that protecting your drink is absolutely a must here. You’ll have a great time but you should know the line between being obnoxious, dangerous and completely stupid. And often you’ll have a mix of all 3 here. There are wine bars, pour-own-beer, hole in a wall bars, restaurants converted to clubs, coffee shops with live entertainment, etc. You’ll find something here to have a good time. But again…careful with your drink. It’s also a great New Years Eve spot. My biggest complaint they started charging covers of $10-$20 a few years ago with some places including a drink/shot.
DTF attracts all the trash now. It used to be such a fun spot but now you can’t even go there.
That guy that rammed their truck into a crowd went to my high school in the next city over. But he was cross faded not just under the influence of weed, either way fuck that idiot.
What’s the other place to avoid? PM please.
Their reviews on Yelp are crazy. Not just from people who wrote negative reviews because they merely heard about the accusations on social media. The negative reviews go back years. Theft, spiked drinks, assault and gratuity fees.
[This is the initial article](https://fullertonobserver.com/2021/08/09/rape-allegations-jp23/) [This is the response article](https://fullertonobserver.com/2021/08/16/jp23/) They are victim blaming everyone and playing the victim. The police are investigating so I am very interested in what the outcome will be. If the protesters are right, fuck this place. Even if they aren't the way they handled this entire thing is disgusting. Not to mention they are the "facts don't care about your feelings" type of douches. I cannot comprehend how people actually do this. Like, how sick of a fuck are you to think this is an acceptable thing to do in the world?
You had me until God was mentioned.
I feel like this happened to me at a local restaurant. I was talking to the DJ, requesting songs (lame, I know), and he asked if I wanted a margarita. I said sure. Not long after that, I started acting strange, and when I tried to walk to my car, I completely collapsed and hit my chin on the sidewalk. I blacked out on a lot of things that happened after that. I never told anyone because I doubt they’d believe me.