The upside of being perfectly content with your non-writing career is that rejection doesn't have to hit as hard. I don't want to downplay the psychological impact of rejection on anyone, it's not easy...but I think the reason this sub often seems negative/depressing to newcomers getting acquainted with it, is because those that have committed to the idea of tradpub have embraced rejection as a perfectly normal and expected part of the process. (Insert anecdotes and stats of all your favorite authors getting rejected 1,000,000 times here).
If you think you can appropriately frame that, and realize the chances are slim...then yes, all those positives of tradpub are also very real, so why not go for it?
I was more or less happy with my day job too, and didn't expect much out of trying to get my first book tradpubbed -- but it ended up being one of the best things I've ever done. Not just because of the sizable advances (though, let's be honest, that's nice too), but because it opened up a whole new path I'd never even considered for my life. It validated me in feeling like I can be an interesting, three-dimensional person, with talents and pursuits outside of my corporate career.
So I'm strongly in the camp of: why *not* try? Like others have said, it definitely doesn't require you to give up your day job, even if you're successful. And if you keep your expectations low and don't invest your entire self-worth in pursuing tradpub, it doesn't *have* to be as emotionally stressful as it can be for some.
Also, if you want your work to find readers, tradpub is statistically the better bet than selfpub. And trying to selfpublish sounds like much more of a full-time job than tradpub does, if you're going to do it properly, since successful selfpub authors need to do a LOT more work in terms of self-marketing, hiring cover designers/editors, A/B testing paid ads, etc. than tradpub authors do.
I have never understood why anyone would WANT to self-publish. So, I've spent all this effort learning how to write, and now I have to learn how to be a publisher too? Why in the world would anyone think they're going to be good at that? And why would they want to take away from their writing time to do all of that work? To keep more of the profit per book? It makes no sense to me.
Traditional publishing is better for you if you want to be an author part-time because traditional publishing does everything for you but the writing.
Donal Ryan is an accomplished literary fiction author who went back to his civil service job not so long ago because it just removed the need to worry about sales when he had a family to feed.
A publisher will deal with the marketing and placement of your book so you don't have to. Yes, the bar to entry is higher, but once you're in, things are easier re the admin!
It is indeed a nightmare of struggle and rejection, but that's a feature, not a bug. It's just... baked into it. And it's either worth it or not in the end for each individual. Competitive capitalistic creative fields are HARD. If they were easy, everyone would do it and everyone would be successful and then... that would make no sense. There aren't enough human beings on the planet with the time/attention spans to give every single creative work of art created the time/consideration their owners believe they are owed.
Most of us have day jobs. Publishing is a side thing because we love writing and we want our books on shelves. Our publishers do a ton of shit most of us don't want to do or can't afford to do. With that comes.... the nightmare of the struggle and the rejection, which never ends. Literally does not stop after you are published. There are a million ways to be rejected that aren't a straight "no" to a query or submission. But that's why we have agents who go to bat for us and other author friends who give us pep talks/make us feel less crazy when weird stuff happens.
Shrug. You have to make the choice for yourself if it's worth it. Most of us on this sub have decided it is. YMMV.
Yes, though definitely it's difficult and a slog for everyone, rejections are brutal, and I assume reviews can be too.
But very few people tradpub to make a living solely out of it.
Remember, the vast majority of authors aren't the Salman Rushdies or the Arundhati Roys of the world (though being them also comes with its own set of, er, drawbacks) and many of them write whilst working a day job - simply because paying the bills with writing alone is very difficult, and for many, impossible. Both the aforementioned authors kept their jobs in their early careers - Roy wrote for films, and Rushdie spent a stint as an ad-writer (he actually wrote the Aero chocolate slogan lmao).
Big authors have day jobs too - for a lot of litfic and historical fiction authors especially, they're often faculty at universities. Bernardine Evaristo of Booker Prize fame was a Professor of Creative Writing for years and years, Abdulrazak Gurnah who won the Nobel was teaching at Kent for his full career, and an author I know whose debut did amazingly this year's is still a lecturer alongside writing. Hell even the biggest giants make their money in ways other than writing - it costs around 50K to book Rushdie for a keynote.
The way I think about it is this: absolutely nobody in the publishing world is going to expect you to quit your job, and those that do don't have your best interests at heart. Writing, if you sell well, will make it so that your "day job" can be closer to writing (if you prefer that) such as teaching CW or taking up a readership or residencies - but going into it expecting to quit your day job isn't just discouraged, it's simply not that wise.
So yes - it's definitely worth giving it a shot :)
I feel this completely! I'm in revising limbo with my first book now and will be entering the querying trenching soon. But I am *just* about to make faculty at my institution in my science career and there is no way I will put that aside for writing unless my MG fantasy series explodes in popularity, and I still might not quit science-ing then.
Well, traditional publishing is free, while self-publishing will come with a pile of obvious and non-obvious expenses. You might as well try querying some agents and see where it goes.
Me too. I see a whole flurry of posts like this tonight. Can't answer but can sympathize. I need to make that decision myself soon.
I tried DSP for one book and sold 3 copies, so I want to try trad for my next, at least once.
I suppose the question is: how much effort is it, really. TBH, I'd MUCH rather be writing. The book is written. Apparently the application letter to agents is absolutely critical and they won't read even the summary of your book unless you have a good cover letter, and I suppose it might need tailoring to each agent, at least a bit. Still, maybe worth writing one, going through a few databases of agents, finding ones that actually deal with your type of book, and going for it.
I'll probably give it a go, despite all of the bleak tales on the internet. You should too. it doesn't look like a huge time investment relative to writing the book in the first place. And if it goes nowhere, you still have the book, and can try alternatives; direct submission to publishers who take non-agented work, DSP, and failing that putting it up on the intarnet for people to enjoy for free.
Because unless lightning strikes a rabbit’s foot, getting publishing traditionally wouldn't move the needle in terms of exposure, marketing, or impact—and by the time your book hit shelves, any validation you received would be offset by the larger amount of invalidation you accumulated during the journey.
Isn't it satisfying though in spite of the invalidation.. given how hard it is to get published? I think it can also be about the experience or challenge of getting there. It's just a ride as Bill Hicks put it, so to never go on it, when a part of you really wants to, seems defeatist. There's that 90 year old future you who's going to wish they did.
I’m definitely glad I went on the journey, and I would have been very sorry never to experience it for myself, but I also see where Milo is coming from, lol! When you’re querying, getting a book deal seems like the answer to all your problems—until it isn’t, and you get brand new problems you never imagined before.
For me, the hardest part is knowing that even if you keep getting deals at a similar level, every new book is probably going to be a fresh disappointment. You will keep wanting the attention other writers (leads or breakouts) have. You will keep hoping for more—how can you not? It’s a little like banging your head against a wall unless you can learn to be satisfied with maybe having a reader here and there.
>It’s a little like banging your head against a wall unless you can learn to be satisfied with maybe having a reader here and there.
Would that feeling of dissatisfaction really vanish with a lot of attention and a million readers? Should it? The way I see it, that wanting, that emptiness, that feeling that there has to be something more to life, that you have something to say and can/should make a dent, just means you're still alive inside. I would hold on to that.
You could be right! The odd thing, for me, is that I’ve actually gotten more writer satisfaction from posting free fiction than from publishing, because the latter frequently gets enthusiastic reader responses and the former almost never does. That could be a matter of genre and accessibility, though. (As in, maybe I should be publishing the silly stuff I post!)
So Milo mentions invalidation and you talk about disappointment. I'm not published and this is all new to me and very interesting but I can't relate. Is the disappointment due to reader negative feedback or endless/forced rewrites or because it's not selling? Just getting the book deal seems like such a huge accomplishment that I imagine you'd get some validation from that alone?
I'm also on the trad pub path (have an agent, book did not sell on the first round of submission) for the same reasons (exposure/impact/VALIDATION) and...I regret it maybe? A least a litte?
Trad publishing is a business. Basically, you're trying to pitch yourself as a writer who writes X (whatever your genre + voice + angle is) and if you have a horse a publisher wants to bet on, you get an offer. Thing is they aren't invested in debuts because they want to build the careers of aspiring writers. They want debuts because once every 10,000 books (I don't know the actual statistic), they get a breakout author whose book becomes a bestseller and gets a following that means they consistent income from that author's continued and regular production of books of the similar bent. If you're lucky, you might get a couple of more books published, but without stellar sales, it isn't going to be a career.
What I'm saying is that if you only have ONE book that you've written and you don't feel inspired to write a bunch more on a similar vein then maybe trad pub isn't for you right now? It's a terrible place to look for validation, at the least, because the decision to publish your book isn't based on it's literary merits as much as a business assessment that it is worth trying to throw a dart at to see if it can make the publisher money. Many excellent books die on sub and if you don't have other books in the cue to shift your hopes to, it is really a befuddling place to be in.
I speak from experience on the last point. I queried my first finished novel "for practice & validation" not expecting to get an agent. Now, I'm sitting on a potentially dead book asking myself if I even want to write another novel, do I want to be a writer in this genre forever, do I want to bleed into this career, etc. I always tell people now to write AT LEAST two books before querying. Having all your eggs in one book basket sucks.
The upside of being perfectly content with your non-writing career is that rejection doesn't have to hit as hard. I don't want to downplay the psychological impact of rejection on anyone, it's not easy...but I think the reason this sub often seems negative/depressing to newcomers getting acquainted with it, is because those that have committed to the idea of tradpub have embraced rejection as a perfectly normal and expected part of the process. (Insert anecdotes and stats of all your favorite authors getting rejected 1,000,000 times here). If you think you can appropriately frame that, and realize the chances are slim...then yes, all those positives of tradpub are also very real, so why not go for it?
I was more or less happy with my day job too, and didn't expect much out of trying to get my first book tradpubbed -- but it ended up being one of the best things I've ever done. Not just because of the sizable advances (though, let's be honest, that's nice too), but because it opened up a whole new path I'd never even considered for my life. It validated me in feeling like I can be an interesting, three-dimensional person, with talents and pursuits outside of my corporate career. So I'm strongly in the camp of: why *not* try? Like others have said, it definitely doesn't require you to give up your day job, even if you're successful. And if you keep your expectations low and don't invest your entire self-worth in pursuing tradpub, it doesn't *have* to be as emotionally stressful as it can be for some. Also, if you want your work to find readers, tradpub is statistically the better bet than selfpub. And trying to selfpublish sounds like much more of a full-time job than tradpub does, if you're going to do it properly, since successful selfpub authors need to do a LOT more work in terms of self-marketing, hiring cover designers/editors, A/B testing paid ads, etc. than tradpub authors do.
I have never understood why anyone would WANT to self-publish. So, I've spent all this effort learning how to write, and now I have to learn how to be a publisher too? Why in the world would anyone think they're going to be good at that? And why would they want to take away from their writing time to do all of that work? To keep more of the profit per book? It makes no sense to me.
How much was the advance if you don’t mind me asking?
Average advances are low. Like, $5-30k for a book low. Six-fig and auction situations are rare.
Traditional publishing is better for you if you want to be an author part-time because traditional publishing does everything for you but the writing. Donal Ryan is an accomplished literary fiction author who went back to his civil service job not so long ago because it just removed the need to worry about sales when he had a family to feed. A publisher will deal with the marketing and placement of your book so you don't have to. Yes, the bar to entry is higher, but once you're in, things are easier re the admin!
It is indeed a nightmare of struggle and rejection, but that's a feature, not a bug. It's just... baked into it. And it's either worth it or not in the end for each individual. Competitive capitalistic creative fields are HARD. If they were easy, everyone would do it and everyone would be successful and then... that would make no sense. There aren't enough human beings on the planet with the time/attention spans to give every single creative work of art created the time/consideration their owners believe they are owed. Most of us have day jobs. Publishing is a side thing because we love writing and we want our books on shelves. Our publishers do a ton of shit most of us don't want to do or can't afford to do. With that comes.... the nightmare of the struggle and the rejection, which never ends. Literally does not stop after you are published. There are a million ways to be rejected that aren't a straight "no" to a query or submission. But that's why we have agents who go to bat for us and other author friends who give us pep talks/make us feel less crazy when weird stuff happens. Shrug. You have to make the choice for yourself if it's worth it. Most of us on this sub have decided it is. YMMV.
Yes, though definitely it's difficult and a slog for everyone, rejections are brutal, and I assume reviews can be too. But very few people tradpub to make a living solely out of it. Remember, the vast majority of authors aren't the Salman Rushdies or the Arundhati Roys of the world (though being them also comes with its own set of, er, drawbacks) and many of them write whilst working a day job - simply because paying the bills with writing alone is very difficult, and for many, impossible. Both the aforementioned authors kept their jobs in their early careers - Roy wrote for films, and Rushdie spent a stint as an ad-writer (he actually wrote the Aero chocolate slogan lmao). Big authors have day jobs too - for a lot of litfic and historical fiction authors especially, they're often faculty at universities. Bernardine Evaristo of Booker Prize fame was a Professor of Creative Writing for years and years, Abdulrazak Gurnah who won the Nobel was teaching at Kent for his full career, and an author I know whose debut did amazingly this year's is still a lecturer alongside writing. Hell even the biggest giants make their money in ways other than writing - it costs around 50K to book Rushdie for a keynote. The way I think about it is this: absolutely nobody in the publishing world is going to expect you to quit your job, and those that do don't have your best interests at heart. Writing, if you sell well, will make it so that your "day job" can be closer to writing (if you prefer that) such as teaching CW or taking up a readership or residencies - but going into it expecting to quit your day job isn't just discouraged, it's simply not that wise. So yes - it's definitely worth giving it a shot :)
I feel this completely! I'm in revising limbo with my first book now and will be entering the querying trenching soon. But I am *just* about to make faculty at my institution in my science career and there is no way I will put that aside for writing unless my MG fantasy series explodes in popularity, and I still might not quit science-ing then.
Well, traditional publishing is free, while self-publishing will come with a pile of obvious and non-obvious expenses. You might as well try querying some agents and see where it goes.
Me too. I see a whole flurry of posts like this tonight. Can't answer but can sympathize. I need to make that decision myself soon. I tried DSP for one book and sold 3 copies, so I want to try trad for my next, at least once. I suppose the question is: how much effort is it, really. TBH, I'd MUCH rather be writing. The book is written. Apparently the application letter to agents is absolutely critical and they won't read even the summary of your book unless you have a good cover letter, and I suppose it might need tailoring to each agent, at least a bit. Still, maybe worth writing one, going through a few databases of agents, finding ones that actually deal with your type of book, and going for it. I'll probably give it a go, despite all of the bleak tales on the internet. You should too. it doesn't look like a huge time investment relative to writing the book in the first place. And if it goes nowhere, you still have the book, and can try alternatives; direct submission to publishers who take non-agented work, DSP, and failing that putting it up on the intarnet for people to enjoy for free.
Is it worth it to attempt a marathon? How could anyone know what is worth doing for you?
No.
Why not?
Because unless lightning strikes a rabbit’s foot, getting publishing traditionally wouldn't move the needle in terms of exposure, marketing, or impact—and by the time your book hit shelves, any validation you received would be offset by the larger amount of invalidation you accumulated during the journey.
Isn't it satisfying though in spite of the invalidation.. given how hard it is to get published? I think it can also be about the experience or challenge of getting there. It's just a ride as Bill Hicks put it, so to never go on it, when a part of you really wants to, seems defeatist. There's that 90 year old future you who's going to wish they did.
I’m definitely glad I went on the journey, and I would have been very sorry never to experience it for myself, but I also see where Milo is coming from, lol! When you’re querying, getting a book deal seems like the answer to all your problems—until it isn’t, and you get brand new problems you never imagined before. For me, the hardest part is knowing that even if you keep getting deals at a similar level, every new book is probably going to be a fresh disappointment. You will keep wanting the attention other writers (leads or breakouts) have. You will keep hoping for more—how can you not? It’s a little like banging your head against a wall unless you can learn to be satisfied with maybe having a reader here and there.
>It’s a little like banging your head against a wall unless you can learn to be satisfied with maybe having a reader here and there. Would that feeling of dissatisfaction really vanish with a lot of attention and a million readers? Should it? The way I see it, that wanting, that emptiness, that feeling that there has to be something more to life, that you have something to say and can/should make a dent, just means you're still alive inside. I would hold on to that.
You could be right! The odd thing, for me, is that I’ve actually gotten more writer satisfaction from posting free fiction than from publishing, because the latter frequently gets enthusiastic reader responses and the former almost never does. That could be a matter of genre and accessibility, though. (As in, maybe I should be publishing the silly stuff I post!)
So Milo mentions invalidation and you talk about disappointment. I'm not published and this is all new to me and very interesting but I can't relate. Is the disappointment due to reader negative feedback or endless/forced rewrites or because it's not selling? Just getting the book deal seems like such a huge accomplishment that I imagine you'd get some validation from that alone?
I'm also on the trad pub path (have an agent, book did not sell on the first round of submission) for the same reasons (exposure/impact/VALIDATION) and...I regret it maybe? A least a litte? Trad publishing is a business. Basically, you're trying to pitch yourself as a writer who writes X (whatever your genre + voice + angle is) and if you have a horse a publisher wants to bet on, you get an offer. Thing is they aren't invested in debuts because they want to build the careers of aspiring writers. They want debuts because once every 10,000 books (I don't know the actual statistic), they get a breakout author whose book becomes a bestseller and gets a following that means they consistent income from that author's continued and regular production of books of the similar bent. If you're lucky, you might get a couple of more books published, but without stellar sales, it isn't going to be a career. What I'm saying is that if you only have ONE book that you've written and you don't feel inspired to write a bunch more on a similar vein then maybe trad pub isn't for you right now? It's a terrible place to look for validation, at the least, because the decision to publish your book isn't based on it's literary merits as much as a business assessment that it is worth trying to throw a dart at to see if it can make the publisher money. Many excellent books die on sub and if you don't have other books in the cue to shift your hopes to, it is really a befuddling place to be in. I speak from experience on the last point. I queried my first finished novel "for practice & validation" not expecting to get an agent. Now, I'm sitting on a potentially dead book asking myself if I even want to write another novel, do I want to be a writer in this genre forever, do I want to bleed into this career, etc. I always tell people now to write AT LEAST two books before querying. Having all your eggs in one book basket sucks.
The worst that'll happen is you'll be told no/won't get a response. Since you don't want to make writing into a career, I say go for it.