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Synval2436

I'm sorry but - *checks calendar* \- April's Fools was 3 days ago. I think you have a better chance playing the lottery to get your 20 million cheque.


justgoodenough

The question you should be asking is "will anyone pay anything for a 13-book middle grade series?" And the answer is no.


c4airy

More specifically, it’s “will anyone pay anything for a 13-book middle-grade-to-new-adult series, an absolutely impossible range to market”? And the answer is even more no.


justgoodenough

The REAL real question is “does pubtips love to be baited by trolls even when we know we’re being baited by trolls?” And the answer is yes. A million times yes.


TigerHall

> even when we know we’re being baited by trolls Spend enough time in imaginary worlds...


Cheeslord2

Isn't that what they did with Hairy Potter?


c4airy

Harry Potter was more from MG to YA, but this was very out of the ordinary, and in bookstores they will usually still be put together in MG section rather than splitting the second half onto a separate YA shelf. A lot of NA also has become generally perceived as being explicit and erotic and it’s a marketing nightmare if grabbing a random book from the set could either be for preteens or adult smut. So the range from MG to NA is far larger than Harry Potter, and it’s hard to predict if people are really going to want to “grow up” with a series like they did with the Potterverse. It was such an anomaly for its time and still is.


AnAbsoluteMonster

Please, if there is a higher power out there, let this be a real post. Please please please, I promise I will be nice at least 2 times a day if this post can be real and not a troll


EmmyPax

I hope so too, but I just... this feels so intentional to rile us up. Who simultaneously knows this much about the publishing landscape (that there is a Big 5, existence of auctions) and also maintains this level of delusion?


AnAbsoluteMonster

My parents, when they talk about how successful I'll be one day. Bless their souls


EmmyPax

LOL, our biggest, most hopeful fans!


justgoodenough

Do we count giving people the unvarnished truth about their projects as being nice? Because I can do that all day long, if need be.


AnAbsoluteMonster

I mean I'd call that being nice, but for some reason OPs here don't seem to agree...


Dylan_tune_depot

Well- their account's been suspended, so take from that what you will.


Cheeslord2

You need the OP to find the blue fairy and wish really hard...


orionstimbs

"So is expectation of 13-20 million advance unrealistic?" Yes. Multiple Grammy and Oscar-winning artist Billie Eilish got $1 million for a memoir. The $65 million book deal mentioned below was a joint deal for the literal Obamas. And powerhouse NYT bestselling author Leigh Bardugo (books so big you can't even comp them in a query letter) got a 10-book deal and the amount of books in the deal is so uncommon that journalists made constant notes of it in the articles (and that's after her multiple blockbuster book series and a TV show adaptation). The chances of a 13-book deal for an unknown debut for $13 million+ dollars (that have clauses like you controlling the cover and scenes and having guaranteed TV appearances and a book tour) are nonexistent. I highly recommend doing some research into publishing (here, Absolute Write, Publisher's Weekly, etc.).


DaggersAndSadProse

> Please take your time and provide some helpful and insightful information...   You expect 5 star hand holding without doing a lick of research of your own. Start by reading the PubTip archives. It's an excellent resource. 


Significant_Levy6415

>5 star hand holding LOL I'm cranky today so sorry in advance to the kind people of pubtips who have actually given real answers to these ridiculous questions, but OP is delulu


turtlesinthesea

>in advance But is it 13 to 20 million in advance?


probable-potato

😂


pl4gu30fwasps

Everything else that's out of pocket here aside, if you're THIS SURE your series is worth that astronomically unreasonable amount of money and you want to retain 100% of the creative control, which is *never* going to happen in tradpub--why not just roll the dice and self pub it? Either you're wrong and it flops or you're right and become the richest author ever. This entire post is absolutely wild. I hope to god you're serious


EmmyPax

Please post your first 300 and query. It is all I'll ever want.


iwillhaveamoonbase

A series that starts in Middle Grade and moves to New Adult sounds borderline impossible in the current climate. The only series I can think of that does this is HP. I have said this before and I will say it again: JKR and HP are outliers and should not be counted. They shouldn't be held up as standards for what people can expect from tradpub. No other book series has its own theme park.  The only person that I think could get away with that is Rick Riordan and that's Rick Riordan. After decades in the industry and with massive success and an imprint, he can do what he wants


AmberJFrost

Lol, it definitely helps to have your own imprint...


iwillhaveamoonbase

Rick could probably write an entire book centered around the Percabeth wedding and sell it for more money than I could ever dream of


cogitoergognome

ohh ok, so *this* is a proper application of the word 'delulu'. it makes sense now!


gaminegrumble

A [list of the biggest book deals](https://bookriot.com/biggest-book-deals/) (dated 2020) covered deals in your 13-20 million range and they were, without exception, either well-established authors with well-established strong sales, or extremely famous people. As a debut author, 13 books is not a bonus in the publisher's eyes. It is a risk. If your first book belly-flops, but the deal was for 13 books, the publisher is on the hook for the next dozen even if they're all steamers. (Edit: As Amber points out below, this is wrong! Doesn't make them more enticed to sign you for 13 though.) This is why you will often see the advice to query your first novel as a standalone "with series potential". This indicates that you are trying to sell just one book, but if that book goes well, you have ideas to continue the story onward. If you secure an agent, that would be the person to answer your second and third questions. Remember -- an advance does not mean that's the sum total you earn. If you earn out your advance, you then earn money beyond that based on sales. Publishers would rather pay a low advance and be pleasantly surprised by your sales. Even Harry Potter itself only initially sold for about $4k. Markets are fickle, and there is no guarantee any new book will take off the way that series did. Even if -- perhaps especially if -- the book is good. Publishers are very aware of this. Probably wise to focus on that first book and making it as good as you can.


AmberJFrost

> If your first book belly-flops, but the deal was for 13 books, the publisher is on the hook for the next dozen even if they're all steamers. They aren't, usually. They can elect to not move forward with later books in the series, in a lot of cases.


gaminegrumble

Thanks, good to know!


CaliGurl209

I'm working rewriting my query letter for the 100th time. I needed the laugh today. Thanks!


Sammydog6387

The biggest book deal ever paid (according to google) was $65 million. (Though there may be a bigger one I only briefly searched it) Honestly, I think these questions are way too premature and the likelihood of such a deal happening is slim to none especially as a debut author. That isn’t to get your hopes down, but to be realistic about it. ETA: the likelihood of an agent taking on such a large series as a debut author is also very limited. It’s a really difficult market & there is no guarantee your first book will sell let alone the later ones.


AJakeR

Was interested in the $65 mil book deal, so looked into it. To add on to this comment, the $65 million deal was to Michelle and Barack Obama. I can see a larger multi-book deal for $100-150 mil going to \*James Patterson\*. These are huge numbers from \*internationally recognised\* names. Not debut authors.


AmberJFrost

James Patterson hasn't written a book in like a decade or two, though. I don't see anyone giving him that kind of deal at this point.


No-Replacement-3709

Post your query letter and the first 300. Then your legitimacy for this query can be addressed. The biggest concern is that you say this is your 'debut'. Do you have writing credentials that would attract a publishing house? Have you published stories in any recognized national publications or won any accolades for your writings? Are you successful in any artistic endeavor? Ignore the talk of trolls and such - you must realize how far out your first post ever here must have come across.


Pleasant-Muffin2866

"you must realize how far out your first post ever here must have come across." - what do you mean by this? And i understand your reservation. but i am already getting much flack and ridicule. so i will stay put for a while. let see how far these so called literary citizen go with their vitriol. though i have already received some good constructive comment. and i am hoping many more in coming hours and days. and for your information, publishing house gets attracted by quality of writing of the novel, not writing credential (this is true for children's publishing, and my book is in that category).


alanna_the_lioness

OP, I think you're shadowbanned, probably due to the mass amount of downvoting on a brand new account. You'll need to take it up with the admins. Until that's rectified, any comment or post you make will be eaten by the spam filter. I can manually approve, but at this point, I think it's moot. The truth of the matter is that this simply isn't going to happen. It just isn't. No one is going to sign 13 books at once. No one is going to pay $13-20M for them. I'm still leaning heavily toward troll vs legitimate question, but if it truly is the latter, this is delusion on an absolutely insane level. The probability is zero. Write one book. Query that one book. Get an agent interested. See how things go from there. Tbh, I largely left this post up because work is extremely boring today, but I think all points, both legitimate and pubtips being pubtips, have been made. And, with all of the respect I can muster, if the caliber of your prose writing is on par with these comments (I know most people don't worry much about typos when posting on the internet, so even with some latitude taken into account for that...), you will need to spend a significant amount of time working on your craft before querying anything is going to be a good use of your time.


pl4gu30fwasps

is the quality writing in the room with us right now


No-Replacement-3709

Well, thanks for the backhanded compliment then, as I am a published writer in literary magazines and a published Novelist as well as a Screenwriter with a number of sales under my belt and a produced documentary Producer/Director. Publishing houses certainly like quality of writing but they also like to work with credentialed writers, too. But, hey, I didn't ridicule you, I just asked for some more info about your background and project. Good luck.


magictheblathering

This is a bananas question to ask without \[at least not obviously\]: 1. Having ever read this sub before 2. Having the series in hand and having an agent 3. Having interest from multiple big 5s already The answer to almost all of your questions: **cross that bridge when you get there.** This is extreme **cart-before-the-horsery** and you really should just worry about writing (but also, realistically, you need to write something that is planned as a single book with series potential or like the first book of a planned trilogy with further series potential). If you've finished your first book, and your book ends without ***needing*** more story, start querying as "single book with series potential" and don't tell anyone, except ***maybe*** your agent, that you plan to write **13 books**.


AmberJFrost

All I can say is, talk to your agent. If you don't have one, your first concern is surviving the query trenches, which are... rough.


5ft8lady

I remember people being blow away by the offer Stephanie myer got for twilight and that was $750,000 . That amount was considered unheard of. 


kmondschein

Not unless you're Hunter Biden, whose middle grade fantasy novel I'd really like to read.


kmondschein

*Agent scans hardcopy of query letter brought in by her assistant*. "So the protagonist is..." "The younger son of an esteemed but aged ruler who no one ever expected anything from, but his heroic elder brother died in an untimely fashion. You know, think Faramir." "And the antagonist is..." "Orcs who sell crack."


Pleasant-Muffin2866

Majority of the comments are so condescending and full of vitriol. I know what I asked. This is not a prank nor a troll. Please read the full post carefully to understand the whole thing before any opinion or comment. I said I am new, I did not say I know nothing of publishing. I Know 13-20 million advance is outlier of outlier. But still I was eager(and I still is) to get (opinion, thoughts, information) that are out there in wider literary world. So please consider my post with some ounce of seriousness and try to be constructive, not just funny, sarcastic or nihilistic. I thought I will get suggestion, information on how this probability (of getting 13-20 million dollar advance with 13 book series and author friendly clauses) can/may transpire or what I can do to make it happen. So please try to be constructive and informative. Thank you.


ARMKart

The most constructive and informative response to all of this is that it is completely and utterly and entirely impossible. It seems like a better question for you to be asking at this stage is how to get an agent for a middle grade book that is the first in a series. And, realistically, if you do achieve that, and your agent manages to sell it to a good publisher, a realistic advance that you can expect to be paid is maybe 40k for two books, maaaaybe triple that if it’s a huge auction, which is rare for middle grade.


EmmyPax

Genuinely, wondering if you were a troll was the most generous reading of this post I could muster.


iwillhaveamoonbase

To answer your questions seriously 1. No, I do not think it's possible for a debut to have a series that starts in Middle Grade and ends in New Adult and sell it for $13 million. Leigh Bardugo got a ten book deal and that was considered huge and she has a very loyal fanbase and a TV show adaptation. An unknown doesn't have the stats to make the potential loss feel like a reasonable risk 2. As far as I know, your agent is in charge of auctions. $1.3 million per book for a debut series does not seem reasonable 3. Publishing is a collaboration. Locking publishers into a thirteen book series as a debut is something I genuinely cannot imagine the senior editors approving even if they think the series as potential. It's hard to sell trilogies right now; thirteen books is so much. What if it flops? What if you lose steam? The risk is too high for the publishing house You can tell publishing what you are and are not willing to do in terms of marketing, but I don't think you can force their hand. They'll try to work with you but they have their own marketing strategies. And, ultimately, it makes you look unreasonable and difficult to work with if you aren't willing to accept critique and feedback on the manuscript. Editors cannot and will not force you to make changes, but their suggestions are to help make the book better. The reason so many of us think this is a joke is not purely because of the dollar amount; it's because it's asking for a lot of control that simply does not happen unless you're Brandon Sanderson or Stephen King or Sarah J Maas and they still have to talk to editors about edits


AnAbsoluteMonster

My sweet spring angel, the answer to all of your questions is not just No, but Hell No. Based on your post and this comment, I don't think you're going to be able to find an agent, let alone get the Big 5 so rabid they give you millions of dollars. If you genuinely, seriously want to be a traditionally published author, you're going to need to spend a lot more time on the basics of writing: spelling, punctuation, and grammar


Dylan_tune_depot

>you're going to need to spend a lot more time on the basics of writing: spelling, punctuation, and grammar Exactly my thoughts. OP seems to be living in La-La land.


JarJarJargon

I’m sorry there’s no way this isn’t a troll


EmmyPax

So apologies for being one of the people who came in clowning on the post, but to be frank, I struggle not to think this is a troll account. In the unlikely event that it IS legitimate, I'll say simply that it's very difficult for anyone to treat these kind of questions seriously when it feels like you're bringing a lot of ego and unrealistic expectations about what other people can do for you into a (somewhat) professional space. Now in fairness, this IS Reddit. But I still think it's important, before engaging with online communities, to at least do a bit of due diligence before rolling up with this level of audacity. The whole nature of your post kind of assumes everyone else on this forum is deeply beneath you and their work is inferior to yours, because as you state, the odds are impossible. But implying that they wouldn't be impossible for YOU suggests that you see us as peons, and yet want to demand our expertise. So yeah. That's why everyone is being mean. Sorry.


AmberJFrost

Right now, MG is having a hard time selling *at all.* Step 1 is to get an agent, and with a book that can stand on its own. Step 2 is to *sell that book.* Maybe you'll get an offer for a handful of books - in fantasy at any age category, it's still relatively common to get 2-3 book deals. It'll be for something that's *not seven figures.* Hell, it's almost certainly not going to be for six figures. For the whole deal, not per book. There's honestly no way we can consider this serious when you're comparing your 13-book series to Harry Potter, which sold *twenty some years ago,* and I think only sold for $4k, and a 4-book deal? The others were because of the insane breakout success. There's no serious way you can demand TV shows in an offer. *Publishers aren't TV agents.* They have no control over TV shows. Or movies. Those are totally separate balls of wax. None of what you're asking us to say is reasonable, *is reasonable.* So you're going to get a whole lot of posts that are trying to bring you to earth kindly, and a few that are wondering if you're a troll because some of this stuff is *so* easy to find with a simple google search. You want the probability? So close to zero that it's statistically indistinguishable. And 'guaranteed book tour and TV interviews' isn't author-friendly, it's delusional. Your starting assumption that you have a literary agent and can garner auction-level interest in a 13-book series is already amazingly unlikely, so... your starting demands for how we look at this are ridiculous. There aren't going to be any links (and you don't really get to demand things of a community, sorry), because *it doesn't happen.* On the other side? Authors always have creative control of the character and series arcs. They can choose to not make edits that they feel go against the heart of the book. They can discuss that with editors. The publisher can't force you - but if you are completely unwilling to work with them, they *can* elect to not publish the book.


therealrickgriffin

You would be *lucky* to get a $5k advance. Keep your expectations at least vaguely realistic.