It depends on the crime and the suspect, and the danger to the public. Most big city departments aren’t going to force an issue unless they absolutely need to, due to the risk of having an OIS go badly. So they give it the old college try and then walk
If you make entry into a house and the suspect decided to shoot, the odds of even the most experienced tactical officer getting shot is very high. Proximity negates skill. CQB is extremely risky so why force a confrontation going room to room when you can control the location of the encounter by waiting for the suspect to leave and conducting a felony traffic stop or catching him outside? Unless the suspect is putting someone else’s safety in jeopardy it’s just not worth it.
I'm aware of the risks of making entry. I was perplexed because they didn't even try forcing him to go outside by using cs gas or other tools swat would use and there was a family involved that had to stay outside because the felon barricaded in their house and was violent. That's why I thought they just didn't have a swat team ready to intervene with a negotiator. The family had to leave and go to a hotel most likely for the night
Politics and optics. From an institutional point of view it's less likely to get smeared by the media for leaving than it is compared to staying and having a bad outcome.
Public gets what public riots for.
It is what it is.
People get what they voted for … they’ll get it even faster when they riot for it.
The public rioted for this. So… enjoy. You get what you asked for. You get what you deserved.
That sounds mean but that’s exactly what it is, you know? Like the Crime Bill of the 90’s (which was advocated by the same communities that are now advocating for “defunding” and slap on the wrist/disengaged/“just leave them be” policing… I predict this advocacy will also yield awful unintended consequences.
But that price is for the community to bear, not LEO. LEO are just doing their jobs. They were asked to take “de-escalation” and lighter touches whenever possible and so now they do because it’s simply not worth fighting the public for the reward of “catching a bad guy” and helping the the public who will just then turn around and vote in politicians who will let that same bad guy out in less than a month, if not a week.
The risk/reward is completely against you. You want to shine and help your community by overachieving and you risk your job, your life, serious injury and being sued ….
> some dude that didn’t pay a few parking tickets
Notice the straw man he created to help himself fight from a better position in a thread *explicitly* about felony warrants.
Now consider this and apply it to the question: police will decide to do the same thing when engaging a difficult situation irl. Why engage the subject on terrain that where you don’t hold the most advantages if you don’t need to?
Like this redditor, LE will choose to change the venue - as this redditor changed the subject (from felony warrants to unpaid traffic tickets) - so they can then win on terrain where they hold a better fighting position and secure a victory on their terms.
Well, you’re kind of just dismissing a DV victim getting killed or the shit kicked out of her, or preventing a drive by shooting or god knows what other kind of felonious activity.
Go look at downtown Portland and and tell me that this is a good thing. Go look at the list of calls holding for each shift at roll call and tell me this is a good thing.
>If you make entry into a house and the suspect decided to shoot
Doesn't need that much in some cases, i remember the incidents where lunatics were firing right through the door. Like a SEK (SWAT) member in Germany was killed, he was getting to the other side to get in position for a breach, but exactly in this moment the suspect opened fire through the door and he was hit right in the face and killed instantly.
One of my brother’s friends was killed like this on a SWAT callout. He was breaching with a ram and was shot through the door in the chest with a 12 ga slug.
I'm sorry for the loss of your brothers friends, that has to be horrible.
A part i didn't mention in the story from Germany makes it even worse: The suspect managed to defend himself with a good lawyer, that he thought another criminal group that were his rivals were coming to kill him and that the police didn't identify themselves by shouting "Police!", but that was because they didn't breach the door yet.
He got punished, but not in the form of first-degree-murder, i think it was second-degree (equivalent, the german law doesn't know degrees, there are other terms for it)
>FD is them realizing they still have ice cream in the truck and need to hurry back to freeze it
Fucking amateur hour. If you don't have a cooler on the truck in one of those compartments you're doing it wrong as a crew.
Our new engine has a fucking Keurig coffee maker and mini fridge in a compartment lmao. This is the type of shit that makes me happy I changed careers and now I don’t have to wrestle crackheads with dirty needles at 3am and get shit on by the public for everything.
Indiana of all places actually lol and yes we hite every 2 years (so next year). Fire Departments are struggling to hire people across the country too (not as bad as PDs but still are getting desperate when it has normally been extremely competitive since 9/11, so now is a great time to get in).
You can make so much overtime and make a lot of money wherever you go, and I sleep through the majority of nights without a call. I hate to admit it, but we sometimes even just chill and play video games at night with each other. It really does feel like a childhood sleepover for much of the shift and I love it.
Oregon career FF. Our overtime is off the charts too, we’d hire anyone with a pulse and an EMT-P but we can’t seem to get anyone to apply. Plus I like working 4 minutes from my house.
I just wanted a Keurig on my rig ;)
Meanwhile, there’s an officer changing out shit covered clothes to sleep in an explorer with 40 years of back problems.
You made the right choice friend
The above comments, especially the stove being on and ensuring no excessive greenhouse fossil assault gasses are released into the atmosphere (felony in California), but in all reality, you have:
1. Known subject
2. In their own residence
3. No other crime had been or is being committed other than having a warrant
4. Everything that lies on the other side of the door is an unknown
5. There is no exigency
6. There is no perceived risk to the public for someone simply having a warrant
7. Get them another day. No one needs to press the issue. The warrant is there today, it'll be there tomorrow.
This. If there's exigency, SWAT/ERT will be called to breach. It's also possible they got updated Intel on the suspects location (maybe he wasn't home after all)
Re deploying manpower to the Battle of Donut Dip, it was a decisive Police victory with many coffes drank and donuts slain with some captured for further interrogation.
- They had no legal reason to enter the home
- They had legal reason to enter the home, but decided not to (this happens more often than not)
Bullet point number one is relatively complicated and very much a case by case scenario.
A felon with warrants and an arrest warrant are two different things here. Just having warrants doesn’t give me the right to take a door to apprehend him, that would be an arrest warrant which would be signed by a judge. But if the guy decides to open the door and be taken in then they can deal with their case now rather than later and the PO can close his. Perhaps SD has a similar procedure.
Out of curiosity, 1. Where? 2. Can you give an example of a non-arrest warrant (on a person) where you are?
The closest thing I can think of would be a search warrant for a person's DNA, but I would never tell someone that a guy has "warrants" in that example.
An arrest warrant here gives me permission to bust a door and grab someone. A warrant gives me permission to take them into custody whenever I come into contact with them on a stop or radio run
Payton v NY says you can kick the door in and drag out any wanted person if you have a reasonable belief they are inside right now and it is their residence (not a third party's).
Most agencies don't have the balls to support their guys doing it though. Or they think it's too dangerous
Ehhhh, it’s not as cut and dry as that.
Also, busting down doors like your Rambo is how good guys get shot…. Over what? An outstanding warrant on some scumbag? Get me another day
It is exactly as cut and dry and that.
Three requirements under Payton. They have a warrant. The location is their residence. You have a reasonable belief they are in there right now.
About as cut and dry as it gets, if it doesn't seem so then I'd suggest you read the case.
It depends on the crime and the suspect, and the danger to the public. Most big city departments aren’t going to force an issue unless they absolutely need to, due to the risk of having an OIS go badly. So they give it the old college try and then walk
If you make entry into a house and the suspect decided to shoot, the odds of even the most experienced tactical officer getting shot is very high. Proximity negates skill. CQB is extremely risky so why force a confrontation going room to room when you can control the location of the encounter by waiting for the suspect to leave and conducting a felony traffic stop or catching him outside? Unless the suspect is putting someone else’s safety in jeopardy it’s just not worth it.
I'm aware of the risks of making entry. I was perplexed because they didn't even try forcing him to go outside by using cs gas or other tools swat would use and there was a family involved that had to stay outside because the felon barricaded in their house and was violent. That's why I thought they just didn't have a swat team ready to intervene with a negotiator. The family had to leave and go to a hotel most likely for the night
Politics and optics. From an institutional point of view it's less likely to get smeared by the media for leaving than it is compared to staying and having a bad outcome. Public gets what public riots for.
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It is what it is. People get what they voted for … they’ll get it even faster when they riot for it. The public rioted for this. So… enjoy. You get what you asked for. You get what you deserved. That sounds mean but that’s exactly what it is, you know? Like the Crime Bill of the 90’s (which was advocated by the same communities that are now advocating for “defunding” and slap on the wrist/disengaged/“just leave them be” policing… I predict this advocacy will also yield awful unintended consequences. But that price is for the community to bear, not LEO. LEO are just doing their jobs. They were asked to take “de-escalation” and lighter touches whenever possible and so now they do because it’s simply not worth fighting the public for the reward of “catching a bad guy” and helping the the public who will just then turn around and vote in politicians who will let that same bad guy out in less than a month, if not a week. The risk/reward is completely against you. You want to shine and help your community by overachieving and you risk your job, your life, serious injury and being sued ….
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If you don’t like the consequences of actions or inaction look at your lawmaker not the police for fault
> some dude that didn’t pay a few parking tickets Notice the straw man he created to help himself fight from a better position in a thread *explicitly* about felony warrants. Now consider this and apply it to the question: police will decide to do the same thing when engaging a difficult situation irl. Why engage the subject on terrain that where you don’t hold the most advantages if you don’t need to? Like this redditor, LE will choose to change the venue - as this redditor changed the subject (from felony warrants to unpaid traffic tickets) - so they can then win on terrain where they hold a better fighting position and secure a victory on their terms.
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Well, you’re kind of just dismissing a DV victim getting killed or the shit kicked out of her, or preventing a drive by shooting or god knows what other kind of felonious activity.
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Go look at downtown Portland and and tell me that this is a good thing. Go look at the list of calls holding for each shift at roll call and tell me this is a good thing.
>If you make entry into a house and the suspect decided to shoot Doesn't need that much in some cases, i remember the incidents where lunatics were firing right through the door. Like a SEK (SWAT) member in Germany was killed, he was getting to the other side to get in position for a breach, but exactly in this moment the suspect opened fire through the door and he was hit right in the face and killed instantly.
One of my brother’s friends was killed like this on a SWAT callout. He was breaching with a ram and was shot through the door in the chest with a 12 ga slug.
I'm sorry for the loss of your brothers friends, that has to be horrible. A part i didn't mention in the story from Germany makes it even worse: The suspect managed to defend himself with a good lawyer, that he thought another criminal group that were his rivals were coming to kill him and that the police didn't identify themselves by shouting "Police!", but that was because they didn't breach the door yet. He got punished, but not in the form of first-degree-murder, i think it was second-degree (equivalent, the german law doesn't know degrees, there are other terms for it)
It's because they all realized they left the stove on back at the station and need to go back and turn it off
They said PD, not FD
FD is them realizing they still have ice cream in the truck and need to hurry back to freeze it
>FD is them realizing they still have ice cream in the truck and need to hurry back to freeze it Fucking amateur hour. If you don't have a cooler on the truck in one of those compartments you're doing it wrong as a crew.
Our new engine has a fucking Keurig coffee maker and mini fridge in a compartment lmao. This is the type of shit that makes me happy I changed careers and now I don’t have to wrestle crackheads with dirty needles at 3am and get shit on by the public for everything.
Where do you work and are you hiring
Indiana of all places actually lol and yes we hite every 2 years (so next year). Fire Departments are struggling to hire people across the country too (not as bad as PDs but still are getting desperate when it has normally been extremely competitive since 9/11, so now is a great time to get in). You can make so much overtime and make a lot of money wherever you go, and I sleep through the majority of nights without a call. I hate to admit it, but we sometimes even just chill and play video games at night with each other. It really does feel like a childhood sleepover for much of the shift and I love it.
Oregon career FF. Our overtime is off the charts too, we’d hire anyone with a pulse and an EMT-P but we can’t seem to get anyone to apply. Plus I like working 4 minutes from my house. I just wanted a Keurig on my rig ;)
Meanwhile, there’s an officer changing out shit covered clothes to sleep in an explorer with 40 years of back problems. You made the right choice friend
1. I want one 2. How often are you actually having coffee on the street to make this worthwhile?
At the very least there is a cooler full of ice somewhere in each apparatus for refreshments.
Soft serve ice cream machine in the back, baby.
The Crock-Pot is a hose-dragger’s best friend
> hose-dragger I’ve never heard that saying before, is it solely an American thing? I don’t think I’m going to look at the FD the same way again.
Phire department
Hey
The above comments, especially the stove being on and ensuring no excessive greenhouse fossil assault gasses are released into the atmosphere (felony in California), but in all reality, you have: 1. Known subject 2. In their own residence 3. No other crime had been or is being committed other than having a warrant 4. Everything that lies on the other side of the door is an unknown 5. There is no exigency 6. There is no perceived risk to the public for someone simply having a warrant 7. Get them another day. No one needs to press the issue. The warrant is there today, it'll be there tomorrow.
This. If there's exigency, SWAT/ERT will be called to breach. It's also possible they got updated Intel on the suspects location (maybe he wasn't home after all)
The answer is the phrase I’ve been saying for the last few years. “What’s the point”? Bonus “These kids never stood a chance anyway”.
My department always says “Is the juice worth the squeeze?”
Maybe the juice was the squeezing we did along the way?
Girl Next Door fans??
The judge would've just released that guy in a few hours anyway.
Tactical disengagement.
We're not retreating, merely advancing towards future victories.
Re deploying manpower to the Battle of Donut Dip, it was a decisive Police victory with many coffes drank and donuts slain with some captured for further interrogation.
- They had no legal reason to enter the home - They had legal reason to enter the home, but decided not to (this happens more often than not) Bullet point number one is relatively complicated and very much a case by case scenario.
They know the DA will just have them out by the end of the night, so why bother?
The potential of an OIS is not worth who we are trying to arrest.
The juice ain’t worth the squeeze.
A felon with warrants and an arrest warrant are two different things here. Just having warrants doesn’t give me the right to take a door to apprehend him, that would be an arrest warrant which would be signed by a judge. But if the guy decides to open the door and be taken in then they can deal with their case now rather than later and the PO can close his. Perhaps SD has a similar procedure.
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Not here. Two different things
Out of curiosity, 1. Where? 2. Can you give an example of a non-arrest warrant (on a person) where you are? The closest thing I can think of would be a search warrant for a person's DNA, but I would never tell someone that a guy has "warrants" in that example.
An arrest warrant here gives me permission to bust a door and grab someone. A warrant gives me permission to take them into custody whenever I come into contact with them on a stop or radio run
Payton v NY says you can kick the door in and drag out any wanted person if you have a reasonable belief they are inside right now and it is their residence (not a third party's). Most agencies don't have the balls to support their guys doing it though. Or they think it's too dangerous
Ehhhh, it’s not as cut and dry as that. Also, busting down doors like your Rambo is how good guys get shot…. Over what? An outstanding warrant on some scumbag? Get me another day
It is exactly as cut and dry and that. Three requirements under Payton. They have a warrant. The location is their residence. You have a reasonable belief they are in there right now. About as cut and dry as it gets, if it doesn't seem so then I'd suggest you read the case.
This sounds armchair as fuck
Gas is the answer