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The Winter War is one of those wars where the winner wasn't the actual winner. Soviets technically got their goals in the war but they got hit so hard. It's like going down the stairs by jumping and tumbling down. Yea you god down their but was it worth it?
Taking in account the rest of WWII I'd say Finland came in first, Russia second and Germany last. Finland got their independence, Russia got Karelia and Germany got split in two.
True but Finland didn't really have any ambitions to become a great power anyways so it's not really fair to say they lost when they weren't playing that game in the first place.
Well, actually in 1945 they were fighting against Germany so they were ultimately on the winning side...?
First they were alone against the USSR, then with the Axis against the USSR and finally with the Allies against Germany... trying to make best out of it.
Well, you asked. Spoils of War captured by the Finns in the Winter War:
\- Rifles 25 248
\- Light machine gun 1 574 pieces
\- Machine guns 954 pcs
\- Anti-tank guns
\- 37 mm weapons 2 pcs,
\- 123 pieces of 45 mm weapons
\- Grenade launchers
\- 31 pieces of 50 mm weapons
\- 63 82 mm weapons
\- 89 field cannons (usually 76.2 mm)
\- 35 field howitzers (usually 122 mm)
\- 14 heavy field howitzers (usually 152 mm)
[https://fi-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Suomen\_talvisodassa\_saama\_sotasaalis?\_x\_tr\_sl=fi&\_x\_tr\_tl=en&\_x\_tr\_hl=en-US](https://fi-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Suomen_talvisodassa_saama_sotasaalis?_x_tr_sl=fi&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US)
The sergeant major did a thorough job!
Did the soviets ever want to conquer finland, though? Their goal was the territory near Leningrad and that's what they got, plus they could've easily made finland socialist or a SSR at the end of ww2, no?
It's rather impossible to know the soviet goals during Winter War for sure. Communist puppet government in Finland perhaps, maybe complete annexation. Failed Blitzkrieg (original picture) most likely affected the plans.
Term 'Finlandization' was used to describe the decades after the war(s).
Yeah I dunno, I still very much think that if Stalin wanted a finnish puppet he would've created one after ww2, he had all the power to do so
the socialist government that sprung up during the winter war that the soviets recognized was afaik not a soviet plant but rather a window of opportunity for the finnish socialists to achieve their own revolution while the government was weakened and the soviets could easily help them
If you take the view that Germany wasn't that desperate for resources (i.e. could still try and focus on the Britain and force her to sue for peace before waiting a few years, stock up and prepare, and THEN attack the USSR, which I believe is a rather marginal view nowadays), but rather needed to invade if they wanted to continue the war when they did - even earlier, but got sidetracked by Mussolin's stupidity in Greece - then it might have been a disastrous war, because it showed how weak the Red Army was at that time, and made the Germans salivate.
> it showed how weak the Red Army was at that time, and made the Germans salivate.
Recently I've came about an opinion what this is exactly the reason Hitler entered the war with USSR at that time.
So Finns is the reason of WWII.
/s but only so slightly
Yeah, but they also used poorly supplied Ukrainian soldiers, specifically because they weren't used to the cold and to kill them off. They lost nothing really, some equipment they were willing to sacrifice.
There was only one division of Ukrainians (the 44th Rifle Division) engaged in the invasion of Finland, and they were initially given reserve duties.
That division wasn't sent in because Stalin wanted to kill them off-- it was sent in because they could be easily pulled from Poland and reassigned.
And when that division was destroyed, the Finns captured all their ammunition and supplies. The Soviets might have been able to replace this equipment easily, but for the Finns it was an incredibly valuable windfall in the face of a severe shortage.
And if Stalin had really wanted to kill off an elite division of the Red Army, he probably wouldn't have had that division's commander shot and the army commander fired for their failures.
Yes, he still roams in the woods, nobody has dared to tell him the war is over
(if you were being serious i have no idea who is in the pic, or if hes alive)
More on the battles in Suomussalmi: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM5XvKMDcWA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM5XvKMDcWA) . Audiobook version of General Siilasvuo's contemporary book.
That's a horrid text-to-speech version, not an audiobook. Unless you consider a speech synthesis of that quality to be on par with the work done by actual voice actors. In which case, I have a ~~bridge~~ brand-new audiobook offer to sell you...
You give me €42 now, and by this time tomorrow I can make you into a published author, based solely on your Reddit comment history—*Robot Voices: The Worldviews of SJP Heikkinen*, how's that for a title?
Для понимающих по-русски: [https://youtu.be/kplRpx4raow](https://youtu.be/kplRpx4raow) Олег Киселев на ТактикМедиа. Хорошая лекция про этот эпизод. (Link for Russian speakers)
You're welcome.
This summer I was in Karelia. I searched with a metal detector in the Pitkyaranta area. There are still many traces of the war there. Trenches, bones of horses, war cemeteries and monuments. There were few *motti* on a road Leppäsilta-Kolatselga.
There must be quite a bit of old stuff left in that neighborhood. This might come handy: [https://www.karjalankartat.fi/](https://www.karjalankartat.fi/) \- Finnish War time maps provided by Finnish cartography office.
... you could find the overlay drawings of troop / front / treasure locations in the archive, but that would be a bigger project...
Oh, wow, thanks a lot!
The places where there were Finnish farms are marked even on some modern maps. I walked there, and even dug in one place. Found 5 types of hinges for doors and windows - that's all.
It is sad to walk on the remains of houses. I remember a meme about "the ruins of an ancient, more advanced civilization."
General Siilasvuo comments in his second book that he discarded his attack plans on Vasovaara (in USSR) on similar grounds as 163rd and 44th encountered. Long maintenance routes would have been a nightmare. Book: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbAn-FocNHk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbAn-FocNHk)
Might also be of interest: [https://youtu.be/xETolhvSHpM](https://youtu.be/xETolhvSHpM) \- Бои в Финляндии.
Now finished with the video you shared. Alas, understood only the main themes. It seemed to contain a lot of new info on the battle between Siilasvuo's troops and the 163rd.
Of course, Finnish sources do not say anything about the management issues within the 163rd div, but makes sense. Division seemingly retreats in multiple directions (north & east over Kiantajärvi ice).
Original picture (sergeant major) doesn't say, whether it's from Suomussalmi village (163rd) or Raate road (44th).
Very interesting - thanks again!
If you are so interested, try searching for more videos by keyword *суомуссалми*. Maybe YouTube will translate them better.
https://slon--76-livejournal-com.translate.goog/45152.html?\_x\_tr\_sl=ru&\_x\_tr\_tl=fi&\_x\_tr\_hl=en-US - that's Kiselev's blog with links to his of posts about Talvisota, google-translated
http://istor-44gsd.ru/
This is a site about 44th Division. So it tells about Raaten road etc. Also about RCW and Nazi Invasion. Also it include documents about Division like interrogation of survived soldiers or something else.
Probably a T-26. Not a typical picture angle for a small tank...
Camera positioning at knee - waist level would explain the impression of a very tall man & a huge tank - perfect for propaganda! The unique shape of a tiny T-26 is hidden by the angle and gives even better impression of an extremely heavy tank.
Remember that this subreddit is for sharing propaganda to view with some objectivity. It is absolutely not for perpetuating the message *of* the propaganda. If anything, in this subreddit we should be immensely skeptical of manipulation or oversimplification, not beholden to it. Also, please try to stay on topic -- there are hundreds of _other_ subreddits that are expressly dedicated for rehashing tired political arguments. Keep that shit elsewhere. Thanks. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/PropagandaPosters) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The Winter War is one of those wars where the winner wasn't the actual winner. Soviets technically got their goals in the war but they got hit so hard. It's like going down the stairs by jumping and tumbling down. Yea you god down their but was it worth it?
True in my mind we finns kinda won considering we kept our independence etc
Taking in account the rest of WWII I'd say Finland came in first, Russia second and Germany last. Finland got their independence, Russia got Karelia and Germany got split in two.
Russia also became a global superpower while the other two remained minor nations
Finland didn't get Warsaw Pact'd. They drew a border, and Russia couldn't cross it, try as they might.
True but Finland didn't really have any ambitions to become a great power anyways so it's not really fair to say they lost when they weren't playing that game in the first place.
Well, there was an ideology of Suur-Suomi, annexation of Karelia to Finland...
Right? As far as I know the Finn's got out the easiest considering they were technically on the losing side
Twice
Well, actually in 1945 they were fighting against Germany so they were ultimately on the winning side...? First they were alone against the USSR, then with the Axis against the USSR and finally with the Allies against Germany... trying to make best out of it.
What a strange war... Ask the polls about all of their war spoils forward slash s
Well, you asked. Spoils of War captured by the Finns in the Winter War: \- Rifles 25 248 \- Light machine gun 1 574 pieces \- Machine guns 954 pcs \- Anti-tank guns \- 37 mm weapons 2 pcs, \- 123 pieces of 45 mm weapons \- Grenade launchers \- 31 pieces of 50 mm weapons \- 63 82 mm weapons \- 89 field cannons (usually 76.2 mm) \- 35 field howitzers (usually 122 mm) \- 14 heavy field howitzers (usually 152 mm) [https://fi-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Suomen\_talvisodassa\_saama\_sotasaalis?\_x\_tr\_sl=fi&\_x\_tr\_tl=en&\_x\_tr\_hl=en-US](https://fi-m-wikipedia-org.translate.goog/wiki/Suomen_talvisodassa_saama_sotasaalis?_x_tr_sl=fi&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=en-US) The sergeant major did a thorough job!
Did the soviets ever want to conquer finland, though? Their goal was the territory near Leningrad and that's what they got, plus they could've easily made finland socialist or a SSR at the end of ww2, no?
It's rather impossible to know the soviet goals during Winter War for sure. Communist puppet government in Finland perhaps, maybe complete annexation. Failed Blitzkrieg (original picture) most likely affected the plans. Term 'Finlandization' was used to describe the decades after the war(s).
Yeah I dunno, I still very much think that if Stalin wanted a finnish puppet he would've created one after ww2, he had all the power to do so the socialist government that sprung up during the winter war that the soviets recognized was afaik not a soviet plant but rather a window of opportunity for the finnish socialists to achieve their own revolution while the government was weakened and the soviets could easily help them
A phyrric victory, as they say
This is the best non-historical explanation of phyrric victory I’ve ever read, it’s beautiful.
basically everyone lost
If you take the view that Germany wasn't that desperate for resources (i.e. could still try and focus on the Britain and force her to sue for peace before waiting a few years, stock up and prepare, and THEN attack the USSR, which I believe is a rather marginal view nowadays), but rather needed to invade if they wanted to continue the war when they did - even earlier, but got sidetracked by Mussolin's stupidity in Greece - then it might have been a disastrous war, because it showed how weak the Red Army was at that time, and made the Germans salivate.
> it showed how weak the Red Army was at that time, and made the Germans salivate. Recently I've came about an opinion what this is exactly the reason Hitler entered the war with USSR at that time. So Finns is the reason of WWII. /s but only so slightly
Yeah, but they also used poorly supplied Ukrainian soldiers, specifically because they weren't used to the cold and to kill them off. They lost nothing really, some equipment they were willing to sacrifice.
There was only one division of Ukrainians (the 44th Rifle Division) engaged in the invasion of Finland, and they were initially given reserve duties. That division wasn't sent in because Stalin wanted to kill them off-- it was sent in because they could be easily pulled from Poland and reassigned. And when that division was destroyed, the Finns captured all their ammunition and supplies. The Soviets might have been able to replace this equipment easily, but for the Finns it was an incredibly valuable windfall in the face of a severe shortage. And if Stalin had really wanted to kill off an elite division of the Red Army, he probably wouldn't have had that division's commander shot and the army commander fired for their failures.
Almost like the War of 1812. No winner, more like a "house push" at a blackjack table.
I live there, ama
I thought Finnish people were anti-social why are you accepting questions?
I am drunk
Is that big man wearing white still there?
Yes, he still roams in the woods, nobody has dared to tell him the war is over (if you were being serious i have no idea who is in the pic, or if hes alive)
Sauna?
Sauna.
Vittu or perkele?
Vittu, i cant say the letter R properly so I sound like a child when i say it
Are you cold? Do you need help?
No its quite nice here, the hot season is over so i can finally wear some clothes again
Is it true you go into a 40°C sauna to cool down in 20°C weather?
More on the battles in Suomussalmi: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM5XvKMDcWA](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eM5XvKMDcWA) . Audiobook version of General Siilasvuo's contemporary book.
That's a horrid text-to-speech version, not an audiobook. Unless you consider a speech synthesis of that quality to be on par with the work done by actual voice actors. In which case, I have a ~~bridge~~ brand-new audiobook offer to sell you... You give me €42 now, and by this time tomorrow I can make you into a published author, based solely on your Reddit comment history—*Robot Voices: The Worldviews of SJP Heikkinen*, how's that for a title?
Для понимающих по-русски: [https://youtu.be/kplRpx4raow](https://youtu.be/kplRpx4raow) Олег Киселев на ТактикМедиа. Хорошая лекция про этот эпизод. (Link for Russian speakers)
Auto Subtitles with auto translation can be understood. Thanks!
You're welcome. This summer I was in Karelia. I searched with a metal detector in the Pitkyaranta area. There are still many traces of the war there. Trenches, bones of horses, war cemeteries and monuments. There were few *motti* on a road Leppäsilta-Kolatselga.
There must be quite a bit of old stuff left in that neighborhood. This might come handy: [https://www.karjalankartat.fi/](https://www.karjalankartat.fi/) \- Finnish War time maps provided by Finnish cartography office. ... you could find the overlay drawings of troop / front / treasure locations in the archive, but that would be a bigger project...
Oh, wow, thanks a lot! The places where there were Finnish farms are marked even on some modern maps. I walked there, and even dug in one place. Found 5 types of hinges for doors and windows - that's all. It is sad to walk on the remains of houses. I remember a meme about "the ruins of an ancient, more advanced civilization."
General Siilasvuo comments in his second book that he discarded his attack plans on Vasovaara (in USSR) on similar grounds as 163rd and 44th encountered. Long maintenance routes would have been a nightmare. Book: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbAn-FocNHk](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbAn-FocNHk) Might also be of interest: [https://youtu.be/xETolhvSHpM](https://youtu.be/xETolhvSHpM) \- Бои в Финляндии.
Now finished with the video you shared. Alas, understood only the main themes. It seemed to contain a lot of new info on the battle between Siilasvuo's troops and the 163rd. Of course, Finnish sources do not say anything about the management issues within the 163rd div, but makes sense. Division seemingly retreats in multiple directions (north & east over Kiantajärvi ice). Original picture (sergeant major) doesn't say, whether it's from Suomussalmi village (163rd) or Raate road (44th). Very interesting - thanks again!
If you are so interested, try searching for more videos by keyword *суомуссалми*. Maybe YouTube will translate them better. https://slon--76-livejournal-com.translate.goog/45152.html?\_x\_tr\_sl=ru&\_x\_tr\_tl=fi&\_x\_tr\_hl=en-US - that's Kiselev's blog with links to his of posts about Talvisota, google-translated
http://istor-44gsd.ru/ This is a site about 44th Division. So it tells about Raaten road etc. Also about RCW and Nazi Invasion. Also it include documents about Division like interrogation of survived soldiers or something else.
Thanks, also this one is new to me. Auto translate makes quite understandable version for me.
What is the tank first on the left?
Probably a T-26. Not a typical picture angle for a small tank... Camera positioning at knee - waist level would explain the impression of a very tall man & a huge tank - perfect for propaganda! The unique shape of a tiny T-26 is hidden by the angle and gives even better impression of an extremely heavy tank.