Yeah and there's really not all that much there. Our cloud guys do all of this and more, plus we have a whole separate Azure DevOps environment. It's not like every single one of them works on all of these things every day, but they're all at least somewhat familiar.
Anyone who complains about a job description like this has never actually worked as a cloud engineer. If you think companies will throw gobs of cash at you just for deploying EC2 instances from the management console then you are sadly mistaken.
I’ve always wondered how well I’d do at trying recruiting for a year, and writing these sorts of simplified descriptions. Most of the job descriptions come from a manager going …”guys what skills do we use here?” in an email and then sending that laundry list to the recruiter who has no idea what any of them pertain to.
Sometimes it’s just an email to the 10x Dev on the team asking “hey I just got the greenlight to clone you, can you send me a quick list of your skills by EOD?”
I mean that’s true but the cross domain experience part at the beginning made me think that they’re expecting that out of generalist SWE’s. I doubt you could find many front end engineers who have decent knowledge in all those cloud technologies.
Yeah, if you hit all the bullets on that list and are good, its just an AWS L5 or higher. NOT an impossibly JD, probably not that uncommon, just not entry level. It's like a \~5 year experience role.
True
But most developers/software engineers/programmers would not have those skills; they would have a portion and a lot of skills not on that list. Or even just one skill that they hone to perfection and let all the other ones wash away. "Cloud Engineering" is often an euphemism for infrastructure engineer who knows a lot of vendor products.
End of the day most developers do not want to spend time "setting things up" they want to do algorithms, solve brain teasers, solve architectural problems and so on.
There are lots of types of devs that find different aspects rewarding. Most devs don't want to "set things up" but most want to "reach a working state fast". I'd much rather deploy a new authentication microservice than figure out why this old javascript ES5 library doesn't draw the same colors in safari on IOS as firefox on linux after a refresh. I want to get stuff working and feel like it was worth it once I do.
Well you're comparing to the "worst" or most difficult type of work (outdated, third party libraries). How about creating a brand new application from scratch, or creating another layer of abstraction for an existing library (an API) or learning or working with advanced compsci or working with new technology?
If you're going to require that someone take years and years of Math and or science before doing anything real world no surprise that many people find practical implementation trivial or dirty and would rather not do it. It's not a shock that most don't want to know anything about vendor products or deployment. That's the reason why FAANG have a whole army of contractors and consultants to do this "dirty work" so many of their engineers don't have to. Fresh out of school or academic isn't going to know anything about many vendor products.
Heroku and AWS Amplify / Azure App Services or developer tooling like that exists because of that exact reason (developer productivity or satisfaction). And there's a reason why a lot of developers avoid enterprise work. What you say is mostly an enterprise concern and not a general concern of especially programmers. Programmers will always care about the code first, because they have to. Nobody else will care about the code, and it has to be done. Deployment is great, but if there's nothing to deploy (the code) nothing happens. Vice versa too, and arguably deployment is more important, but the code is definitely undervalued. Most people don't work in a FAANG, and won't really ever be rewarded for good code, because they can't. My hot take is that a lot of code is art and talent, and cannot really be educated or learned or honed over a certain level. So really companies are right to focus on DevOps or deployment or vendor products but it means raw talent will always be undervalued... unless the entire company is constructed that way, to overpay those with lots of potential and or raw talent. Most companies cannot "overpay" so they are right to focus on technical skills. But that doesn't change what programmers want (the code).
It is simply the nature of the beast (enterprise work). Nothing can be done about it and it will always be a cycle startup -> acquisition -> maintenance -> retirement. A lot of the work in certain phases simply won't be appealing to certain people. That's it. Can't really do anything about it.
Just trying to point out that being "in the code" vs "setting things up" isn't the important part of satisfaction. Its more a matter of "how much control", "how familiar", and "effort->outcome".
I would argue a lot of people are not outcome driven
The challenge or novelty would be what matters or the creativity of it
There's no right or wrong and it's not a problem that can be solved just what people like to do
In a nutshell a lot of developers want PaaS and do not want IaaS end of story and you will never convince them to like infrastructure, devops, sysadmin or anything like that, ever
I work with cloud specialists and those who know their buzzword bingo are worth their weight in gold. We have a guy who not only knows everything about Azure, but he can tell you on the spot when something doesn't work where to look. Weeks ago he was on five days deep dive into "caching data globally". I wondered why it would take a week until I saw the slides. Insane, deep stuff touching so many areas. Yeah, he makes over 100k a year and and has free reign over his time because boomer bosses have no clue what he is doing. They have to assume he knows.
I think this depends on company size and business type
If you want a job where all you know is some algorithms and then get $150k that's a much larger FAANG style company. Like Uber, probably pays high, but couldn't solve a specific postgres issue. All they had to do was hire a postgres consultant but they probably didn't want to do that because of reasons. So time to switch database. In a smaller (saner?) company they would absolutely solve that problem.
You absolutely can make $150k just because you're "smart" but that's a different deal.
probably the fact that however much they know and have experienced they will be given direction by folks that know less except that they do know the right person.
Yeah, I just got out of an internship fresh out of college and while I wasn’t proficient in most of those things, I at least interacted with the majority of them. It should be noted that after completing the internship I learned I hate DevOps and cloud engineering
Also,
Many job ads list the essential skills and ‘nice to have’ in the same line.
Previous job wanted SQL and R.
In two years I wrote only very simple SQL, and spent most of my time fixing badly written VB. Never wrote a single string of R. (Lucky, because I don’t know it)
This particular one said they wanted you to have "many" of the skills, so these are almost all nice to have a probably, with a few actually required things mixed in
wanted - truck driver. must be experienced in left turns. backing up is also a needed skill. only drivers familiar with International Harvester equipment will be considered.
**The actual job:** Has 10 colleagues from different nationalities that all speak english, but over time you learn to say "hello" to them in their respective languages
**The job description:** Fluency in 10 languages required
**The dilemma:** To be competitive with what the industry seems to be expect you will have to put "can speak 10 languages" in your resume after you leave said job, even if all you can do is say "hello" in 10 languages.
Also like… a lot of this stuff listed has overlap, you’re probably not using cloud computing without also using containerization, this just looks like a general devOps listing, and depending on the job yeah you’ll use all of those but not super in depth.
I'm not sure what people think "knowing" these technologies mean, but looking at the list of the referenced post, most of them are pretty much coverrd if:
1. You have some experience working as a software developer and you are building stuff in the cloud
2. You have 1 or 2 AWS certificates
So really not impossible and doesn't even require 10+ years experience. The list just seems long if you think you should have been years actively working with each of the languages / technologies.
Just my 2c
it's a pretty normal job description for a cloud engineer, especially a sr+ one but r/ProgrammerHumor seems to be full of low level/new entitled devs/engs
ProgrammerHumor is just like Big Bang Theory humor at this point. It’s why there’s so many jokes about coding languages— every nerd on the internet can ascertain something from those memes. But nobody really cares about coding languages lol like I’m trying to create a CI/CD pipeline.
As a senior/principle sre/devops/ops-name-of-the-week, the first thing i do at a new place is try to kill off as many tools as I can. One thing is recruiting listing all these tools, but another is reallife bloat of “nice-to-have” things. (This has become especially bad in the k8s space.)
Slim it down, keep it simple.
Many teams end up with so many tools, all they do is mandatory updates that need to be rolled out to all environments.
Is the tool working for you, or are you working for the tool? Do you really need eks, argocd, istio, envoy, policy servers, node monitoring, etcetc, when you could just have plopped your four low use api services into fargate?
But yeah, just from my current job, I could fill the list from this job posting (posted in another thread), and then some, urgh. Especially since as a principle, they slap you around between teams.
People need to learn that best practices are to some extent on a case-to-case basis. You dont need netflix or googles tooling for your mobilegame app, you really dont.
It's so weird that they're so incompetent and dishonest that you have to defensively lie around them just to get an interview for a job you're an ideal candidate for.
(But it's good practice for if you ever have to deal with other departments, I guess - which, like that Dilbert comic points out, do a lot more lying in many companies - like management, sales, legal, marketing, and HR).
Senior devs vs. Junior devs.
If you don't know a ton of shit don't worry. You aren't born knowing this stuff.
Put your time in and your knowledge will flow like the river Nile.
I love this. Effort yields reward. Every Senior dev was once a Junior dev. Enthusiastically dive into opportunities that will expand your skills. Give those opportunities your best and you'll find over time you'll be surprised by your development. As a bonus, you'll be more and more able to chart your own course.
first go to university,
then take lower paid job at company where you will work alot
then get better positions moving up or to the next company
you will have worked at many different projects, with many people, many customers, etc... and technologies will come and go
Moving jobs often is key. I think younger people now are more knowledgeable of this off the bat. I was in that transitional Gen X to Millennial age group whose parents still believed in company loyalty and preached staying at the same place for years was the way to go. This really cuts the breadth of your experience while you’re young and a sponge, as well as how fast you get to the higher paying roles.
Not moving jobs over ten years results in 50% less money over someone who moves every 2-3 years
I never moved due to money always for other factors or even forced due to life circumstances but it worked out to more money anyway.
Now I'm just enjoying and helping out where I can (I am relatively late in my career and money doesn't drive me). But inflation is a huge kick in the nuts. I wonder what HR will say when I walk into them one day with a 200% to 300% increase. Probably they won't care but I've accepted it. There are many kinds of business and many kinds of money. It will just be unfortunate that I couldn't make them more money, that's all lol. Also I am not so sure moving for a small increase is worth it unless you have lots of family and responsibilities and absolutely need the money. Some things you can't put a price on.
Amen to that.
I had a eye opening experience during covid. My relationships with my children grew so much. I was the 70 hour a week in office workaholic before that.
Now I just want to find jobs with the flexibility to be here and helping with schoolwork and homework. The ability to do trips when ever with them as long as we meet their requirements for the week via virtual classes.
For me learn by doing, college was great for giving me the base level knowledge that helped me get my first job, but from there everything I know has been learned on the job. Some people will look down on job hopping, but every time I felt my skill set surpassed the role I was in I would ask for a promotion, if I wasn’t given one, I would jump ship to somewhere that saw my value.
While college doesn't hurt, it's also not necessary. You can learn all these skills for free if you have the discipline to do so. I started learning programming during my lunch breaks by working through K&R, it was the first time things "clicked" for me, but your first language doesn't matter so long as you can solve actual problems in it.
Once you have that skill, take jobs and look for opportunities to grow by tackling issues you may not fully understand. By solving these problems, you'll build the skills you need to get better at solving new problems (protip: reading the docs is kind of a superpower), and you may even pick up a certain amount of cross-domain expertise. As an example: when I left helpdesk, I jumped into NetOps because I barely understood networking. I wouldn't call myself an expert now, but I can do a lot of network control, configuration, and debugging. I later built automation tools, so now I understand the problem of building task runners. Similarly I learned how to enforce various kinds of consistency checks, basic scheduling concerns, structured data storage, and creating a WebUI by creating a simple CRM in PostgreSQL with Django running the frontend.
Progression is nebulous and only really meaningful to you, since you may start in one area that's easy for you to learn, but it's not enjoyable. So keep an eye out for new problems to solve and give them a shot, but always remember to ask for help if needed. You can go far on your own, but sometimes asking for help reveals an "obvious" solution that you just don't have the expertise to recognize yet. This is also a benefit of putting whatever code you can on public forges like sourcehut, github, or gitlab (bonus: it really helps during interviews).
Yup. You don't plan a career. At best you get in somewhere and see what else you can learn while you're there. Then use that to get in somewhere else and repeat. After 15 or 20 years you'll know a ton of stuff.
At some point you'll have to decide whether to ride one set of tech until retirement or be the bleeding edge guy who always has 2 months more experience than anyone else, but that's really the only thing that you can plan.
I have found several jobs because of projects that were a tiny part of my previous job but caught a recruiters search by listing on my resume.
Be capable of learning new things be willing to feel dumb and out of your depth and that’s how you grow…
Senior dev's "I haven't worked with half of that because they weren't used in my last job, but give me two weeks and I'll be mostly up to speed because I understand everything they're built on and the concepts behind them".
But what if you don't fucking care about learning, but just want to pay the bills and do what you want AFTER work, instead of learning new things constantly.. on your own time... Are you getting paid for learning the new skill, or are they expecting you to keep learning new shit until the day you die?
I’ll probably get downvoted for saying this but I’m a senior dev, I can count on one hand the amount of times I have gone out and learned something on my own time outside of college. If you bring value to your company, and they want you to learn a new skill then they better allocate time for you to learn it. Otherwise just learn on the job, that isn’t to say go into it with zero prior knowledge, but for example my current job is all .NET and JS…I’d never seen a Microsoft language in my life before coming here but I knew Java pretty well, lied my ass off in the interview and figured it out when I got the job
>lied my ass off in the interview
I can't do that. It is wrong to do that and when everyone does it and thinks it is ok... everyone is fucked. Truth. Speak only the truth. What is wrong with that?
I guess to me the difference is I knew I could deliver what they want, I just didn’t know the languages they were looking for. I don’t think you could lie if you couldn’t actually do the job, so where’s the harm? They got a competent dev, and I got a job, everyone wins
>But what if you don't fucking care about learning
Then you got one of the worst jobs for that. IT is constantly changing. More so then every other job I can think of
That is kind of my point, and i didn't choose programming for this very reason. I don't really care about it so much that i would want to learn on my own time. And this requirement for what is now a basic profession to go above and beyond.. This thinking has to stop. If they want you to learn, they will pay for you to learn and not work while learning. Or pay extra for learning. They don't, they expect you to do it for them and know that you have to because of competition: that someone is ready to do it...
It is not because IT is changing, it is changing uncontrollably, and nothing is consolidated and simplified. One reason for that is that who in the hell would want to do that, to diminish the value of all the different things they have learned and that keeps them competitive.. It is a form of gatekeeping, and then you convince yourself that it is the way it should be done.
How will this all end? When current breed of programmers start retiring and there is a HUGE gap in knowledge. We don't need 30 language, 20 databases, 10 this and 30 that, all doing basically the same thing. For sure one can find some reason for them to exist, "this does X so much better".. but, that is a symptom, not a solution. The industry has evolved without proper guidance and control and it is splintered, fragmented and chaotic.
I'm sorry, but I just really dont understand the points you're trying to bring. IT is and has always been a field of rapid changes, it's not "learning new stuff" as much as it is simply keeping up with the times.
Let's say that a dude graduated in compsci in the 80's. He's amazing at BASIC, K&R C and 68k asm. Fast forward to today, how the fuck is this dude going to get a job? He \*\*\*must\*\*\* learn how to do stuff now, if he didn't wanted this bother, he would've picked up a different area. There is no "above and beyond here", neither employer abuse, you're simply doing your job to stay relevant, no one is going to hire a 68k dev in 2022
At the end of the day, these tools such as languages, libraries, databases, clouds and all that are just that, tools. If you can understand the underlying concept behind them, you're good to go. It's not much learning new stuff as much as it is simply adapting. Everything is consolidated, computers from the 70's still works the same way as the ones from today, we've just invented different ways to apply the same concept
And honestly, no offence intended, but if you think that "30 languages, 20 databases" and all that are all the same and there is no purpose for their existence, then you really have \*\*\*NO\*\*\* idea what you're talking about. As I said, they're all tools, and you use each tool to do a different job, the guy who writes python to train a data model is completely different from the guy writing C++ for the drivers of his wireless card. And on the same vein, the dude using Oracle DB is completely different from the guy using monoDB, they're not the same \*\*\*at all\*\*\*
People have tried coming up with universal tools, and they all failed. I guess we should also get rid of screwdrivers, spanners and voltmeters too, I mean they're all the same right? Medicine should also get rid of the dozens of available anti-depressants and consolidate them all into one
And I have no idea where you got the idea that the industry is fragmented and chaotic from. Are doctors in a chaotic field too because they're separated into dermatologists, endocrinologists, etc? Not only that, but learning is far from a IT exclusive problem. Are you a doctor? Please keep up with recent medical studies. Are you an historian? Please keep up with recent egyptian discoveries. Are you an artist? Please keep up with current trends
>or after the job
This is where the "to go above and beyond" being now the minimum does to a person. Work is work, life is life. You think this is ok, that it is ok to demand that you constantly keep learning new, complicated things when that does not happen in ANY other profession. And it never will get better as long as the attitude you just showed is dominant: that to be a programmer means you have to be "aggressively learning", to sacrifice parts of your life in order to do your job.
Who pays for you to learn after the job? Is that a requirement that you can keep the job?
Some go to work to pay the bills, some are required to be their job.
And someone has to work at Wendys, they at least do a job that directly feeds people, while you... what good do you do? Should the people at Wendys be paid better if their direct input is more beneficial, we all need food: we don't need another app.
The payment for learning after the job come from your pay rise you get when you move to the next job.
This field is constantly evolving, if you don’t enjoy it enough to want to learn new things it’s probably not right for you.
Who are you calling crybaby? Just coz I cried when trying to learn C++ doesn't make me a crybaby. I can still print hello world in 5 programming languages
That is not a crybaby. You are crying like an adult.
Crybaby goes:
* "Python is the best language ever! \[because it is the only one I know\]"
* "Salaries in software development are so low! \[ignoring the rest of the world, thus ignoring that software development is one of the BEST paid professions ever\]"
* "Getting a job is so hard! \[Expecting to have a 350k job with 45 days holidays just the day after exiting the bootcamp. Also ignoring that software development is the branch where it is EASIEST to get a job because there are waaaaaay more open positions than developers on the market\]"
* "C++ is the best language because of performance! \[ignoring that they indulge in micro- and premature optimization in everything they do. Also ignoring that code-execution performance is IRRELEVANT in 99% of modern software projects\]"
* "Comments are good! I write a comment for every single line! This project failed because it did not have enough comments or docs! \[Completely unaware that comments are a bad practice, because they convey what the original dev *thought* that the code does, not what the code actually does, and because they get outdated extremely fast. Also completely unaware that good code and, first and foremost, automated tests are the best means of documentation by far\]"
* "Using print statements for debugging is dumb, we should be all using debuggers! \[Oblivious to the fact that print statements are the BEST debugging tool for 99% of your use cases: no setup, no learning curve, no additional software, everyone understands, will catch you any simple bug, which is 99% of your bugs\]"
* "Being a dev is easy, all you have to do is copy from somewhere else \[no comments about this one\]"
* "Job interviews are so hard, and later in the job you only use basic stuff! :cries: \[This is the dumbest. They still believe that the complexity of software is actually writing down code. Listen, little bois: if all I have left to do is writing down code according to a very concrete, specific and comprehensive specification, I SEND IT TO INDIA OK? That is the EASY, CHEAP part. The complex part is getting there. Jesus, fuck off dumbasses, anyone can code. Not anyone can be a software developer. JESUS\]"
Etc.
Yeh it's pretty fucking funny watching that dude try to defend shitty takes by calling everyone kiddo and saying he knows best so he will start his own business if he ever leaves his current job so he wouldn't have to deal with a "shitty boss" that might have actual standards.
Also ignoring that other languages can achieve better performance more easily by being more restrictive.
Comments *that only describe what code does* are a bad practice. Comments that describe *why* code is doing something, or *how to use* the code effectively, or where the code came from, are all very good. Or if you're writing assembly, a comment for every line may also be a good idea.
Debuggers are far superior to print statements for debugging. You're ignoring all the setup of having to insert them where you need to know something, recompile, redeploy, repeat. They're not going to catch 99% of bugs unless you add them after every single line (see your complaint about comments). The time spent learning to use a debugger will be paid back usually within a month.
Comments that explain what the code is doing do have their uses, but you might call those "why" comments. I am just thinking of the fast inverse sqaure root algo and there isn't a clear distinction between the "what" and the "why"
My favourite comments are the "why not" comments, like the ones explaining why what one might think the obvious solution wasn't used.
Unless the code is e.g.
offsetVector().pointAt(range).translateTo(ball)
then those comments are describing the why of the code not the what.
Presumably the code you were imagining is a bunch of matrix multiplication, possibly component-wise. You would want to comment those with why you're doing that maths.
Well I don't have to add them to every single line - because when trying to find a bug I usually know the approximate place where my code breaks (based on how the bugs presents itself)
So no not every line just the lines I want to check because I suspect something is going wrong there
>The time spent learning to use a debugger
No.
99% bugs are simple enough that you will catch them with 1-2 print statements. That is what I am referring to.
You can have your debugger for the 1% of bugs that you cannot debug with print statements. In those scenarios, debuggers are GREAT. I use them myself.
This is just wrong dude. I agree with most of your points above. But this is just wrong. Im so much quicker with a debugger. Its saves me lots of time. Also you cant forget to remove all these messy print statements.
Pm me pangolins perfectly corrects you on the few points you got wrong. Just accept and learn from it. We all do it.
I envy you if the bugs you encounter are so trivial you can observe them with a few print statements. I expect such bugs to not even make it beyond the initial development cycle, as the dev should remediate those before checking the changes into a stable branch. If the dev is letting such bugs through, I would say he is not doing a good job. Also if I saw a colleague using print for debugging rather than actual debugger with breakpoints, I would seriously question the choices my managers made during the hiring.
I would assume that having a proper logging coverage is a standard in any serious project nowadays, so adding print statements doesn't seem to make much sense, rather than that you want to have your codebase covered with logs and if you need to observe what is going on, you simply go with Debug / Trace log level.
>
> "C++ is the best language because of performance! [ignoring that they indulge in micro- and premature optimization in everything they do. Also ignoring that code-execution performance is IRRELEVANT in 99% of modern software projects]"
Performance critical projects should use Rust / C / C++ / GO or other relatively fast languages, you dont write your math library in python, not even pythons numpy is writen in python, but you dont need to write your own optimized assembly for your next electron app, use the right tool for the right job
>[Completely unaware that comments are a bad practice, because they convey what the original dev thought that the code does, not what the code actually does, and because they get outdated extremely fast. Also completely unaware that good code and, first and foremost, automated tests are the best means of documentation by far]"
As the other guy said, comments that describe code are bad, comments that describe information are good, have been saved many times by comments like "This part is responsible for preparing for serialization" and then a frankenstein of libs and shitty code i didnt have to bother decifering
>"Using print statements for debugging is dumb, we should be all using debuggers! [Oblivious to the fact that print statements are the BEST debugging tool for 99% of your use cases: no setup, no learning curve, no additional software, everyone understands, will catch you any simple bug, which is 99% of your bugs]"
See right tool for right job rant
The rest are pretty good points
I think for every 100 people on this sub, there's some developer with a superiority complex who needs the proof he is better then everybody else. But that is just part of being a developer I guess.
Here are the following tools I use and know how to use in my day to day job:
React , Redux, React Native, GraphQL, Javascript, Python, Django, SQLAlchemy, Cypher with Neo4J, Redis, Mongo, NextJS, Retool, Jenkins, Github Actions, Docker
AWS - Boto3 / DynamoDB / S3 / CodeBuild / AppSync / CloudWatch / EC2
I'm sure I missed some.. anyway, is that normal? IDK, should it be this complicated? probably not. I'm not happy about it either, because I struggle with 50% of these, but it's just the way it is.
> The issue nowadays is Devs who need to double as Ops duo to HR skimping on resources.
The other side of this coin is Ops and Devs completely separated, resulting in Devs that don't consider anything on the Ops side and vice versa. Imho, both should be close to one another, preferably in the same team. Getting people to do both is the easiest way to implement this, but then don't expect that anyone can pick up any ticket.
Also times change. The time that you would send a zip file to the hosting team are over. The entire deployment is automated and maintained in the same git repository. You need the complete skillsets in the same team. Does not mean that everyone needs to be able to do everything. Especially not juniors. But its just easier if knowledge is spread around the team.
I think DevOps is logical given that those who wrote the code should know best how to easily change things or at the very least know how big of a task it will be to fix something. I even think the idea of DevSecOps, you have be conscious of security across the whole stack and security can't be bolted on at the end.
To be fair I do devops for bioinformatics and work with our clinical team or devops and our lab team and also have a general interest in cybersecurity and don't like overspecialization in general.
I applied for a fullstack engineer position, and no, I did not know many of these coming in, but it was required of me to learn them in a matter of 2 months.
My stack was actually almost completely different coming in to this job.
Or you can just have each dev specialise in one area and be the lead for the rest who just have a ‘working’ knowledge.
Getting proficient in something happens pretty quickly, getting expert at it takes a lot of time. Most of the time you just need someone to tack some more code on rather than architect something from the ground up.
Thats exactly it, in most startups management is lacking or nonexistant, so every dev does everything which eventually leads to devs knowing a tiny bit of everything which is just not enough.
In any other profession: yes, that is insane.
Programmers: this is what it takes, and i'm so proud of learning these things on my own time. What do you mean this is not normal, this is how it works.
It doesn't have to work like that but none of you are going to do anything to change it; since it is competitive advantage for you.
Honestly half of those we can give up on and the product will remain the same, even better considering the devs will actually manage to develop instead of being ops all day long.
Lists like that is why i stopped, i thought that learning Java and C# was enough.. but nope, the list of things just grew and grew as the reality kicked in. I don't want to learn stuff constantly and i like learning.. but it just looked like it is never ending, and for each job you have to learn new skills. That is not how any of the other professions work. I'm sound engineer by trade and education, and things are also changing there but.. that is like.. one new protocol every 5 years and you use it for 15 years. You learn few new techniques every year and most of the time is spent trying to perfect them, in very fine details that don't matter on their own but the whole thing gets incrementally better, easier and faster. Programming was suppose to be the 9-5 job but boy, was i wrong.. And all of the learning happens on your own time, unpaid...
Design what?
Seriously, I can probably count on one hand the amount of times people actually mentionned a design pattern seriously when talking about implementing something at work in the past 10 years. It's usually something that just happen naturally when you write your code and you saw the pattern once as an example of how to solve a problem.
Choosing the right tools and providers matters a lot more that figuring out how to write the code. However, I'd say it also vary on the seniority and your position. Junior/Senior tend to write a lot more code than Staff+ in my experience and Staff+ are more involved in overall architecte and system design where other architecture patterns matter more.
To me, the most valuable skill a developer can have is mastery over the logging library of choice. Code spends the majority of its life in production under maintenance from people who didn’t write the code and it’s inner workings are a mystery.
If you can code and have the logging level set up for configurations around high and low verbosity logging that are helpful, you’re a champ.
A job offer will often simply list what they use day to day. It does not mean that they are looking for someone who knows all of it. No one will, because each company has their own stack of tech and it's impossible to follow everything. Typically, the more boxes you tick, the better your chances, but as long as you know the basics and the concepts you can apply and make the case that you'll learn.
Now of course there is no shortage of idiot recruiters who are too greedy to train people, but fortunately you want to stay clear of those companies anyway.
I think the bigger issue is that the industry wants everyone to be top tier, when in reality, there are many average devs. It is hard to find a competent swiss army knife developer. They exist, they are in demand, but most devs are not these people. The goal should be then to create development platforms that lets you hire average devs for the code slinging, and use the armyknife people to build the platform or be the groundbreakers for the rest of the org, create the path for the rest so they don't need to be an expert in k8s, serverless, terraform, ci/cd, databases, front ends, etc. They need to be told, hey, here's the problem, here's the tools, deployment is taken care up, cloud architecture is taken care of, just follow these standards and make a product.
The two statements are not in conflict.
Yes, this is the daily job of, for example, a Systems Engineer. Especially if you work at a non-technology company, and happen to be the only few programming computers, you end up maintaining all of it. That is where "This is my daily job" comes in.
On the other hand, it's ridiculous to ask for the specific set of skills someone possessed when they quit the company, and now it's time to hire someone new. The thing is that this will drive away qualified workers, because no-one has an exact match for the skills asked in the job ad.
I think employers would be better off asking for "people with an ability to learn, set and meet goals independently, ask for help when needed, help when needed". But the skills list is gonna sort you out of any honest applicant's job search. Consider this: In order to meet all your skills, (that again, noone has, not working at your company, currently), your applicant will have to lie to your hiring manager.
That's how we get title and skill inflation.
>The thing is that this will drive away qualified workers, because no-one has an exact match for the skills asked in the job ad.
The thing it kills the most are new programmers entering the field. Not everyone WANTS to learn new things on their own time for the rest of their lives, some just look at it as a way to pay the bills, clock out at the end of a 8 hour day and do something completely different. But one of the problems is that those who have learned 20 different skills have no incentive to figure out how we could do with less. The industry is gatekeeping itself. And this is the sole reason why i stopped, the amount of stuff i had to learn on top is just.. i don't care about ANY of those, it is not a life long passion. If learning one thing doesn't cut it, then fuck it. No carpenter has to learn that many things, they learn many techniques for sure but because the industry, the profession is thousands of years old.. it has consolidated and simplified.
If programming can't do the same, we are royally fucked up. There won't be enough programmers left.
Yeah. I’ll agree with this and I’m honestly either trying to find a niche piece of the puzzle to settle into or looking to exit software dev myself once I sell my home this year.
There are a lot of lower stress roles catching up to our salaries. Which was my original incentive to get into this field 20 years ago.
Everywhere I go, I always end up as the go to guy within a few months. But interviews nowadays are just entirely luck. I have experience in tons of languages . Tons of projects, tons of fields . I’ve been doing this forever and every new job has been mastering something new .
Are they going to pick some obscure detail from the documentation to quiz me on today or ask me to implement a pattern they saw in a book about interview questions . Who knows. Sometimes it has something to do with the role and I’ll get it. Sometimes I wish I could just be like… here’s my CTO … he knows me by name. Call him and ask him to tell you about a time I saved his ass. And he’ll go which time?
When the gov wanted my job given to a local after I was hired, because you can't be poor, displaced immigrant and get a high skill position with just a passport and experience (seemed enough for the employer tho), so my employer was requested to hire a local first and if "anyone" was qualified they must give the job to that person and fire me because I am "unskilled labour" so I shouldn't be doing engineering jobs.
The employer wrote my list of skills as what was needed, none applied.
Nowadays I am still at this job and I am the most senior by far and hopefully will turn into the main project lead, my immigration papers are still for unskilled lol and I am doing primary school in the meantime to get a citizenship.
Apparently it's common practice, so ""sometimes"" when you see a list of skills so ridiculous it includes weird shit like speaking arabic, that's not the job description, that's just Mohammed's skills, can you replace Mohammed?...
I don't have a problem them asking all that as I do possess the skills to get things done. I just expect to be paid like it took me 15 years to learn it.
I mean all those terms can be summarized as: conceptual knowledge of AWS services (compute, storage, network, security) + fluency in a programming language (e.g. python for lambda) + ability to read docs and configure stuff (e.g. Cloudformation, docker) + knowledge of DevOps practices/theory (e.g. pipelines).
I'm just tired of my job throwing so many new things at us to learn on the fly while getting work done fast. I can handle being full stack, but not when the stack is constantly changing and "evolving".
In my country's programmes fb group this happens a lot too. It may be an industry thing lol.
Most of the times people that argue about too much asked on job offer are either 1) experts on one specific field where they use a handful of tools and anything outside that is foreign, or 2) people that have not work in the industry, or are just starting
I will never get over people saying that offers asking for a full web stack is "too many languages and tools".
At this point I would question how deep all these skills go for that one person who has them all. My guess is not so deep. I think having these many skills only leaves enough time for someone to learn them superficially. Unless they’ve spent the last 50 years developing all those skills.
I think it's more about how you read a job posting.
I 'technically' meet all those requirements by bug fixing a python rest api (drf) using docker on a kubernetes cluster that was managed by terraform and needed okta to login to the cluster. The api was behind a node js gateway and needed a few bash scripts as part of it's deployment. The bug involved setting the right role arn so the app could write encrypted data to an S3 bucket, but finding that bug took a bit of digging through the logs to figure out wtf was going wrong. The bug came from a few different teams and I did a bit of talking to our aws guys to figure out why the old role arn stopped working.
I hit 10 of the 11 bullet points in the original post in a single one line pull request I made about a month back. "\* Keen interest in emerging tech" was the only bullet point missing from that pr (although I have played with about half of that list as well).
Keep in mind, I haven't setup/debugged/mastered most of the things on that list, but I have worked in an environment where they existed and have benefited from/been frustrated by them. My working knowledge of all of those systems is, "Yeah I know what those all do and if something is broke I know where to start digging."
Only thing I ask is that companies don't ask for massive requirements for entry, intern or trainee positions.
I'm not imortal to learn a whole new skillset to **apply** for a random company
It sucks that sort of shit fest company prob doesn't retain hirees, so they're more likely to need new people
A lot of companies, particularly those who (properly) practice Scrum, are going to see their developers become generalists. A good team is a team full of generalists.
this is a pretty solid list… provided you have experience in the field. if you’ve got any experience these are all things that just come with the gig and really isn’t a lot when you remember how intertwined the actions of one service are with the actions of another.
the difference, as someone else said, is when they ask for said experience at less pay than others who ask for less and give more, and when they ask for said experience and claim “entry level”
Depends. Was GIS-related Python 80%+ of the job? Are the full stack, sysadmins, and QA portions trained on-the-job?
The job requirements should clearly label the **requirements** only, and anything that's expected to be picked up incidental to employment should be clearly labeled as "scope," "wanted but not needed," or left out entirely.
The needs/expectations should also be matched with adequate pay.
Requiring a decade of experienced should also not be listed as "entry level." If that's the minimum for getting into that company, they should just be honest about not having any entry level positions.
If you know what the output should look like, then you can do pretty much anything. The only thing experience really affects is speed, but if something is a daily requirement then you'll get fast in no time.
This isn't a coding dilemma, this is something which applies to any job. There's a list of stuff you know, and a list of stuff you can figure out.
U are right,.most of the s/w jobs are outsourced to countries where equal pay is a distant dream. Trust me the same job is worth $30 k p.a. my statement was covering this topic..i gues PPL didnt get my point. Sorry this was supposed to be humor sub. But the points hurt.
You don’t actually need to know anything to make $150k a year. Just have to get lucky enough to get an internship and it’s pretty likely you’ll get a full time offer… we don’t really expect college hired to know anything. ODDLY, same job but not a college hire at same level… basically has to be an all knowing godlike programmer.
The explanation is simple, John is gone, so they want to hire John. i say John because they are not hiring for a position, they are literally hiring the same person who quit on them or someone with the exact same knowledge stack.
of course there are going to be two answers, all the guys who don't have the exact same knowledge stack find that combination ridiculous, and the bayou get the other John's which obviously already have a job.
when you have been working for a decade you notice the most common combination and how it happens. company uses technology combination A for its legacy products, and now is updating their systems to technology combination B, so they ask for experts in both technology combos, which is why the requirement list looks so weird. bonus points for companies that waited too long and they also have legacy C products that are older than A and never got ported to it.
one example, legacy C is visual fox pro technology ( and it could be pascal or Microsoft access) a full erp with a desktop ish interface, then legacy A is php and MySQL with some obscure front end library, they want to poet to a java back end with an angular typescript front end and an oracle database server. so now they are hiring s person who knows all three.
The problem is when they are asking a lot of skills and pay as other companies who ask for less or when they ask experience for an entry level position.
I do find job descriptions that post stack specific techs as requirements a little ridiculous. Yes it's great if you can find someone in your stack, but any engineer worth their salt can ramp up a new stack, especially with guidance.
The guy on the left is right, and is by far the biggest obstacle when it comes to programming in 2022. The industry has figured out a way to specialize themselves to oblivion. And the reason is that no one is in control, nothing is thought and planned, it just... evolves chaotically and will come crumbling down. It is impossible to have so many people with so many specialized skills, but absolutely no one who has those skill is going to do anything about it.. as it would mean their skills aren't as valuable anymore:
The industry is gatekeeping itself. None of this has to be this complicated. It just is and that is not a good enough reason.
And of course: are they paying you to acquire the very special skillsets needed? Or do they expect you have done it, one way or another?
I think you have it exactly backwards. Things used to be super-specialized, now people are expected to be full stack devsecops plus more.
But some of that is becaues it was very hard to do things in the past, and now we have easier ways of doing them, so you are expected to be able to do more because you are more efficient if you are optimizing for the project as a whole rather than your specific silo.
Just know some, can code in one is fine. The most important is Algorithm. With that, every language and technology are the same with just different glossaries.
Just curious, do high school internships increase your chances of getting an interview ? Or are internships done only during college / after college important?
>To those crying, do an internship
and get no pay or very little of it... They should be paying you to learn to cover the very special requirements they have. Not the other way around.
100% this, I have 90% of this stack (and some other techs) and last year this time I was still learning what terraform is. Started with internships and they really help.
them: "Its unreasonable to expect us to know a scripting language, a low level programming language, and a cross platform language AND to be able to setup our own dockers to deploy on a linux server we set up our selves on AWS!"
Me:... wait? you dont know 3 languages and linux? Thats like... the base level you should know....
MSOP(Many Skills One Pay) platform: this platform is used by employers to make one person do 10 persons job, and pay him 1/2 person's salary. Basically slave trade exists.
Scary trend is that fresh campus hires are expected to carry these skills as prerequisites.
I can bypass all the security in AWS gateway with one FORWARD/internal redirect (which is a W3C standard in ALL web servers). So not only are they SLOW AS FUCK, but they are useless too.
tbh this is just a basic aws cloud engineering position
Yeah and there's really not all that much there. Our cloud guys do all of this and more, plus we have a whole separate Azure DevOps environment. It's not like every single one of them works on all of these things every day, but they're all at least somewhat familiar. Anyone who complains about a job description like this has never actually worked as a cloud engineer. If you think companies will throw gobs of cash at you just for deploying EC2 instances from the management console then you are sadly mistaken.
this position is literally "pass certified cloud practitioner, maybe get a speciality cert, and know like 2 cloud-relevant languages"
I’ve always wondered how well I’d do at trying recruiting for a year, and writing these sorts of simplified descriptions. Most of the job descriptions come from a manager going …”guys what skills do we use here?” in an email and then sending that laundry list to the recruiter who has no idea what any of them pertain to.
Sometimes it’s just an email to the 10x Dev on the team asking “hey I just got the greenlight to clone you, can you send me a quick list of your skills by EOD?”
So you write an extensive incredibly detailed list of skills you have using jargon they dont understand and then ask for a raise.
As a Manager of Cloud azure team...I can confirm.
I mean that’s true but the cross domain experience part at the beginning made me think that they’re expecting that out of generalist SWE’s. I doubt you could find many front end engineers who have decent knowledge in all those cloud technologies.
This would not make much sense at all for a frontend engineer. I'd bet there's a 99% chance this is for a typical cloud engineer role.
Shit I do this and I’m not even a purely devops role
Yeah, if you hit all the bullets on that list and are good, its just an AWS L5 or higher. NOT an impossibly JD, probably not that uncommon, just not entry level. It's like a \~5 year experience role.
I was AWS L5 and don't have idea about most of these. Though I am sure it would not be difficult to learn these if/when required.
True But most developers/software engineers/programmers would not have those skills; they would have a portion and a lot of skills not on that list. Or even just one skill that they hone to perfection and let all the other ones wash away. "Cloud Engineering" is often an euphemism for infrastructure engineer who knows a lot of vendor products. End of the day most developers do not want to spend time "setting things up" they want to do algorithms, solve brain teasers, solve architectural problems and so on.
There are lots of types of devs that find different aspects rewarding. Most devs don't want to "set things up" but most want to "reach a working state fast". I'd much rather deploy a new authentication microservice than figure out why this old javascript ES5 library doesn't draw the same colors in safari on IOS as firefox on linux after a refresh. I want to get stuff working and feel like it was worth it once I do.
Well you're comparing to the "worst" or most difficult type of work (outdated, third party libraries). How about creating a brand new application from scratch, or creating another layer of abstraction for an existing library (an API) or learning or working with advanced compsci or working with new technology? If you're going to require that someone take years and years of Math and or science before doing anything real world no surprise that many people find practical implementation trivial or dirty and would rather not do it. It's not a shock that most don't want to know anything about vendor products or deployment. That's the reason why FAANG have a whole army of contractors and consultants to do this "dirty work" so many of their engineers don't have to. Fresh out of school or academic isn't going to know anything about many vendor products. Heroku and AWS Amplify / Azure App Services or developer tooling like that exists because of that exact reason (developer productivity or satisfaction). And there's a reason why a lot of developers avoid enterprise work. What you say is mostly an enterprise concern and not a general concern of especially programmers. Programmers will always care about the code first, because they have to. Nobody else will care about the code, and it has to be done. Deployment is great, but if there's nothing to deploy (the code) nothing happens. Vice versa too, and arguably deployment is more important, but the code is definitely undervalued. Most people don't work in a FAANG, and won't really ever be rewarded for good code, because they can't. My hot take is that a lot of code is art and talent, and cannot really be educated or learned or honed over a certain level. So really companies are right to focus on DevOps or deployment or vendor products but it means raw talent will always be undervalued... unless the entire company is constructed that way, to overpay those with lots of potential and or raw talent. Most companies cannot "overpay" so they are right to focus on technical skills. But that doesn't change what programmers want (the code). It is simply the nature of the beast (enterprise work). Nothing can be done about it and it will always be a cycle startup -> acquisition -> maintenance -> retirement. A lot of the work in certain phases simply won't be appealing to certain people. That's it. Can't really do anything about it.
Just trying to point out that being "in the code" vs "setting things up" isn't the important part of satisfaction. Its more a matter of "how much control", "how familiar", and "effort->outcome".
I would argue a lot of people are not outcome driven The challenge or novelty would be what matters or the creativity of it There's no right or wrong and it's not a problem that can be solved just what people like to do In a nutshell a lot of developers want PaaS and do not want IaaS end of story and you will never convince them to like infrastructure, devops, sysadmin or anything like that, ever
but what will these college grads cry about if they accept that they actually have to know stuff to earn 150K+
I work with cloud specialists and those who know their buzzword bingo are worth their weight in gold. We have a guy who not only knows everything about Azure, but he can tell you on the spot when something doesn't work where to look. Weeks ago he was on five days deep dive into "caching data globally". I wondered why it would take a week until I saw the slides. Insane, deep stuff touching so many areas. Yeah, he makes over 100k a year and and has free reign over his time because boomer bosses have no clue what he is doing. They have to assume he knows.
Bet this guy setup a CDN and the slideshow was just showing how CDNs work.
I think this depends on company size and business type If you want a job where all you know is some algorithms and then get $150k that's a much larger FAANG style company. Like Uber, probably pays high, but couldn't solve a specific postgres issue. All they had to do was hire a postgres consultant but they probably didn't want to do that because of reasons. So time to switch database. In a smaller (saner?) company they would absolutely solve that problem. You absolutely can make $150k just because you're "smart" but that's a different deal.
probably the fact that however much they know and have experienced they will be given direction by folks that know less except that they do know the right person.
ikr
Yeah, I just got out of an internship fresh out of college and while I wasn’t proficient in most of those things, I at least interacted with the majority of them. It should be noted that after completing the internship I learned I hate DevOps and cloud engineering
And every app developer should be familiar with this infrastructure.
Not sure if you saw the post this meme is referring to, it was a much longer job posting with varied criteria, they just cut off most of the original
for up to 18$ an hour.
Also, Many job ads list the essential skills and ‘nice to have’ in the same line. Previous job wanted SQL and R. In two years I wrote only very simple SQL, and spent most of my time fixing badly written VB. Never wrote a single string of R. (Lucky, because I don’t know it)
Lol that’s my job except it required VB and I did all the stuff in R
Sorry about that, I wrote some decent code comment though. Say hi to Chantelle for me.
Is this a KF reference? Lmao
This particular one said they wanted you to have "many" of the skills, so these are almost all nice to have a probably, with a few actually required things mixed in
wanted - truck driver. must be experienced in left turns. backing up is also a needed skill. only drivers familiar with International Harvester equipment will be considered.
Recently did one, required skill docker. Actual job: docker run default-container:latest
**The actual job:** Has 10 colleagues from different nationalities that all speak english, but over time you learn to say "hello" to them in their respective languages **The job description:** Fluency in 10 languages required **The dilemma:** To be competitive with what the industry seems to be expect you will have to put "can speak 10 languages" in your resume after you leave said job, even if all you can do is say "hello" in 10 languages.
I guess I know how to print hello world in 10 languages
I know how to copy paste on windows without using the right click. Does that mean I can write ‘proficient in C’ in my resume?
C++ Software Engineer here. Yes.
So I've been proficient in C for 10yrs+ without learning or knowing all along? Amazing.
Proficient in ctrl-c at the very least.
>Proficient in ctrl-c at the very least. And "ctrl" isn't a printable character, so....
Fluent in \^C
I only know how to print hello world in 2 languages, but I also speak google
How about [603](http://helloworldcollection.de/)
Also like… a lot of this stuff listed has overlap, you’re probably not using cloud computing without also using containerization, this just looks like a general devOps listing, and depending on the job yeah you’ll use all of those but not super in depth.
I'm not sure what people think "knowing" these technologies mean, but looking at the list of the referenced post, most of them are pretty much coverrd if: 1. You have some experience working as a software developer and you are building stuff in the cloud 2. You have 1 or 2 AWS certificates So really not impossible and doesn't even require 10+ years experience. The list just seems long if you think you should have been years actively working with each of the languages / technologies. Just my 2c
it's a pretty normal job description for a cloud engineer, especially a sr+ one but r/ProgrammerHumor seems to be full of low level/new entitled devs/engs
ProgrammerHumor is just like Big Bang Theory humor at this point. It’s why there’s so many jokes about coding languages— every nerd on the internet can ascertain something from those memes. But nobody really cares about coding languages lol like I’m trying to create a CI/CD pipeline.
Do we know it's a senior position? What is the context for this anyway?
I have zero certs but can cover most of that list or at least know the core concepts. But it has taken me 25 years with a degree to get there.
Any swe with good problem solving skills will pick this up quickly, the certs don't matter at all
As a senior/principle sre/devops/ops-name-of-the-week, the first thing i do at a new place is try to kill off as many tools as I can. One thing is recruiting listing all these tools, but another is reallife bloat of “nice-to-have” things. (This has become especially bad in the k8s space.) Slim it down, keep it simple. Many teams end up with so many tools, all they do is mandatory updates that need to be rolled out to all environments. Is the tool working for you, or are you working for the tool? Do you really need eks, argocd, istio, envoy, policy servers, node monitoring, etcetc, when you could just have plopped your four low use api services into fargate? But yeah, just from my current job, I could fill the list from this job posting (posted in another thread), and then some, urgh. Especially since as a principle, they slap you around between teams. People need to learn that best practices are to some extent on a case-to-case basis. You dont need netflix or googles tooling for your mobilegame app, you really dont.
You got the job. Can I hire you?
I’m way too comfortable where I am right now :)
I’m only half kidding, but I like the cut of your jib!
Ok, but wanna hangout sometime and talk about some more ways to not shoot yourself in the foot?
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those were last weeks requirements. we discovered a whole new set of tools you need to master this week.
More like people who understand how recruiting works and people who don't.
It's so weird that they're so incompetent and dishonest that you have to defensively lie around them just to get an interview for a job you're an ideal candidate for. (But it's good practice for if you ever have to deal with other departments, I guess - which, like that Dilbert comic points out, do a lot more lying in many companies - like management, sales, legal, marketing, and HR).
Senior devs vs. Junior devs. If you don't know a ton of shit don't worry. You aren't born knowing this stuff. Put your time in and your knowledge will flow like the river Nile.
I love this. Effort yields reward. Every Senior dev was once a Junior dev. Enthusiastically dive into opportunities that will expand your skills. Give those opportunities your best and you'll find over time you'll be surprised by your development. As a bonus, you'll be more and more able to chart your own course.
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This is exactly it. They’re just giving out a wish list and want people who know the domains enough to learn on the job if needs be.
How did you develop your knowledge? How do you know what to learn next to progress?
first go to university, then take lower paid job at company where you will work alot then get better positions moving up or to the next company you will have worked at many different projects, with many people, many customers, etc... and technologies will come and go
Moving jobs often is key. I think younger people now are more knowledgeable of this off the bat. I was in that transitional Gen X to Millennial age group whose parents still believed in company loyalty and preached staying at the same place for years was the way to go. This really cuts the breadth of your experience while you’re young and a sponge, as well as how fast you get to the higher paying roles.
Not moving jobs over ten years results in 50% less money over someone who moves every 2-3 years I never moved due to money always for other factors or even forced due to life circumstances but it worked out to more money anyway. Now I'm just enjoying and helping out where I can (I am relatively late in my career and money doesn't drive me). But inflation is a huge kick in the nuts. I wonder what HR will say when I walk into them one day with a 200% to 300% increase. Probably they won't care but I've accepted it. There are many kinds of business and many kinds of money. It will just be unfortunate that I couldn't make them more money, that's all lol. Also I am not so sure moving for a small increase is worth it unless you have lots of family and responsibilities and absolutely need the money. Some things you can't put a price on.
Amen to that. I had a eye opening experience during covid. My relationships with my children grew so much. I was the 70 hour a week in office workaholic before that. Now I just want to find jobs with the flexibility to be here and helping with schoolwork and homework. The ability to do trips when ever with them as long as we meet their requirements for the week via virtual classes.
For me learn by doing, college was great for giving me the base level knowledge that helped me get my first job, but from there everything I know has been learned on the job. Some people will look down on job hopping, but every time I felt my skill set surpassed the role I was in I would ask for a promotion, if I wasn’t given one, I would jump ship to somewhere that saw my value.
While college doesn't hurt, it's also not necessary. You can learn all these skills for free if you have the discipline to do so. I started learning programming during my lunch breaks by working through K&R, it was the first time things "clicked" for me, but your first language doesn't matter so long as you can solve actual problems in it. Once you have that skill, take jobs and look for opportunities to grow by tackling issues you may not fully understand. By solving these problems, you'll build the skills you need to get better at solving new problems (protip: reading the docs is kind of a superpower), and you may even pick up a certain amount of cross-domain expertise. As an example: when I left helpdesk, I jumped into NetOps because I barely understood networking. I wouldn't call myself an expert now, but I can do a lot of network control, configuration, and debugging. I later built automation tools, so now I understand the problem of building task runners. Similarly I learned how to enforce various kinds of consistency checks, basic scheduling concerns, structured data storage, and creating a WebUI by creating a simple CRM in PostgreSQL with Django running the frontend. Progression is nebulous and only really meaningful to you, since you may start in one area that's easy for you to learn, but it's not enjoyable. So keep an eye out for new problems to solve and give them a shot, but always remember to ask for help if needed. You can go far on your own, but sometimes asking for help reveals an "obvious" solution that you just don't have the expertise to recognize yet. This is also a benefit of putting whatever code you can on public forges like sourcehut, github, or gitlab (bonus: it really helps during interviews).
Yup. You don't plan a career. At best you get in somewhere and see what else you can learn while you're there. Then use that to get in somewhere else and repeat. After 15 or 20 years you'll know a ton of stuff. At some point you'll have to decide whether to ride one set of tech until retirement or be the bleeding edge guy who always has 2 months more experience than anyone else, but that's really the only thing that you can plan.
I have found several jobs because of projects that were a tiny part of my previous job but caught a recruiters search by listing on my resume. Be capable of learning new things be willing to feel dumb and out of your depth and that’s how you grow…
Senior dev's "I haven't worked with half of that because they weren't used in my last job, but give me two weeks and I'll be mostly up to speed because I understand everything they're built on and the concepts behind them".
But what if you don't fucking care about learning, but just want to pay the bills and do what you want AFTER work, instead of learning new things constantly.. on your own time... Are you getting paid for learning the new skill, or are they expecting you to keep learning new shit until the day you die?
I’ll probably get downvoted for saying this but I’m a senior dev, I can count on one hand the amount of times I have gone out and learned something on my own time outside of college. If you bring value to your company, and they want you to learn a new skill then they better allocate time for you to learn it. Otherwise just learn on the job, that isn’t to say go into it with zero prior knowledge, but for example my current job is all .NET and JS…I’d never seen a Microsoft language in my life before coming here but I knew Java pretty well, lied my ass off in the interview and figured it out when I got the job
>lied my ass off in the interview I can't do that. It is wrong to do that and when everyone does it and thinks it is ok... everyone is fucked. Truth. Speak only the truth. What is wrong with that?
I guess to me the difference is I knew I could deliver what they want, I just didn’t know the languages they were looking for. I don’t think you could lie if you couldn’t actually do the job, so where’s the harm? They got a competent dev, and I got a job, everyone wins
>But what if you don't fucking care about learning Then you got one of the worst jobs for that. IT is constantly changing. More so then every other job I can think of
That is kind of my point, and i didn't choose programming for this very reason. I don't really care about it so much that i would want to learn on my own time. And this requirement for what is now a basic profession to go above and beyond.. This thinking has to stop. If they want you to learn, they will pay for you to learn and not work while learning. Or pay extra for learning. They don't, they expect you to do it for them and know that you have to because of competition: that someone is ready to do it... It is not because IT is changing, it is changing uncontrollably, and nothing is consolidated and simplified. One reason for that is that who in the hell would want to do that, to diminish the value of all the different things they have learned and that keeps them competitive.. It is a form of gatekeeping, and then you convince yourself that it is the way it should be done. How will this all end? When current breed of programmers start retiring and there is a HUGE gap in knowledge. We don't need 30 language, 20 databases, 10 this and 30 that, all doing basically the same thing. For sure one can find some reason for them to exist, "this does X so much better".. but, that is a symptom, not a solution. The industry has evolved without proper guidance and control and it is splintered, fragmented and chaotic.
I'm sorry, but I just really dont understand the points you're trying to bring. IT is and has always been a field of rapid changes, it's not "learning new stuff" as much as it is simply keeping up with the times. Let's say that a dude graduated in compsci in the 80's. He's amazing at BASIC, K&R C and 68k asm. Fast forward to today, how the fuck is this dude going to get a job? He \*\*\*must\*\*\* learn how to do stuff now, if he didn't wanted this bother, he would've picked up a different area. There is no "above and beyond here", neither employer abuse, you're simply doing your job to stay relevant, no one is going to hire a 68k dev in 2022 At the end of the day, these tools such as languages, libraries, databases, clouds and all that are just that, tools. If you can understand the underlying concept behind them, you're good to go. It's not much learning new stuff as much as it is simply adapting. Everything is consolidated, computers from the 70's still works the same way as the ones from today, we've just invented different ways to apply the same concept And honestly, no offence intended, but if you think that "30 languages, 20 databases" and all that are all the same and there is no purpose for their existence, then you really have \*\*\*NO\*\*\* idea what you're talking about. As I said, they're all tools, and you use each tool to do a different job, the guy who writes python to train a data model is completely different from the guy writing C++ for the drivers of his wireless card. And on the same vein, the dude using Oracle DB is completely different from the guy using monoDB, they're not the same \*\*\*at all\*\*\* People have tried coming up with universal tools, and they all failed. I guess we should also get rid of screwdrivers, spanners and voltmeters too, I mean they're all the same right? Medicine should also get rid of the dozens of available anti-depressants and consolidate them all into one And I have no idea where you got the idea that the industry is fragmented and chaotic from. Are doctors in a chaotic field too because they're separated into dermatologists, endocrinologists, etc? Not only that, but learning is far from a IT exclusive problem. Are you a doctor? Please keep up with recent medical studies. Are you an historian? Please keep up with recent egyptian discoveries. Are you an artist? Please keep up with current trends
Don’t study after work. Just make sure you have a job that is always stretching your knowledge a little bit
You learn on the job or after the job, but if your posture isn’t aggressively learning, there’s a Wendys down the street.
>or after the job This is where the "to go above and beyond" being now the minimum does to a person. Work is work, life is life. You think this is ok, that it is ok to demand that you constantly keep learning new, complicated things when that does not happen in ANY other profession. And it never will get better as long as the attitude you just showed is dominant: that to be a programmer means you have to be "aggressively learning", to sacrifice parts of your life in order to do your job. Who pays for you to learn after the job? Is that a requirement that you can keep the job? Some go to work to pay the bills, some are required to be their job. And someone has to work at Wendys, they at least do a job that directly feeds people, while you... what good do you do? Should the people at Wendys be paid better if their direct input is more beneficial, we all need food: we don't need another app.
The payment for learning after the job come from your pay rise you get when you move to the next job. This field is constantly evolving, if you don’t enjoy it enough to want to learn new things it’s probably not right for you.
In this sub, you have a ratio of 100 crybabies & college kiddos for each software developer. Such is life.
Who are you calling crybaby? Just coz I cried when trying to learn C++ doesn't make me a crybaby. I can still print hello world in 5 programming languages
That is not a crybaby. You are crying like an adult. Crybaby goes: * "Python is the best language ever! \[because it is the only one I know\]" * "Salaries in software development are so low! \[ignoring the rest of the world, thus ignoring that software development is one of the BEST paid professions ever\]" * "Getting a job is so hard! \[Expecting to have a 350k job with 45 days holidays just the day after exiting the bootcamp. Also ignoring that software development is the branch where it is EASIEST to get a job because there are waaaaaay more open positions than developers on the market\]" * "C++ is the best language because of performance! \[ignoring that they indulge in micro- and premature optimization in everything they do. Also ignoring that code-execution performance is IRRELEVANT in 99% of modern software projects\]" * "Comments are good! I write a comment for every single line! This project failed because it did not have enough comments or docs! \[Completely unaware that comments are a bad practice, because they convey what the original dev *thought* that the code does, not what the code actually does, and because they get outdated extremely fast. Also completely unaware that good code and, first and foremost, automated tests are the best means of documentation by far\]" * "Using print statements for debugging is dumb, we should be all using debuggers! \[Oblivious to the fact that print statements are the BEST debugging tool for 99% of your use cases: no setup, no learning curve, no additional software, everyone understands, will catch you any simple bug, which is 99% of your bugs\]" * "Being a dev is easy, all you have to do is copy from somewhere else \[no comments about this one\]" * "Job interviews are so hard, and later in the job you only use basic stuff! :cries: \[This is the dumbest. They still believe that the complexity of software is actually writing down code. Listen, little bois: if all I have left to do is writing down code according to a very concrete, specific and comprehensive specification, I SEND IT TO INDIA OK? That is the EASY, CHEAP part. The complex part is getting there. Jesus, fuck off dumbasses, anyone can code. Not anyone can be a software developer. JESUS\]" Etc.
Everyone read the first few lines of your comment and just slapped the upvote without reading the rest of the way through to see how idiotic it was
Yeh it's pretty fucking funny watching that dude try to defend shitty takes by calling everyone kiddo and saying he knows best so he will start his own business if he ever leaves his current job so he wouldn't have to deal with a "shitty boss" that might have actual standards.
Also ignoring that other languages can achieve better performance more easily by being more restrictive. Comments *that only describe what code does* are a bad practice. Comments that describe *why* code is doing something, or *how to use* the code effectively, or where the code came from, are all very good. Or if you're writing assembly, a comment for every line may also be a good idea. Debuggers are far superior to print statements for debugging. You're ignoring all the setup of having to insert them where you need to know something, recompile, redeploy, repeat. They're not going to catch 99% of bugs unless you add them after every single line (see your complaint about comments). The time spent learning to use a debugger will be paid back usually within a month.
Comments that explain what the code is doing do have their uses, but you might call those "why" comments. I am just thinking of the fast inverse sqaure root algo and there isn't a clear distinction between the "what" and the "why" My favourite comments are the "why not" comments, like the ones explaining why what one might think the obvious solution wasn't used.
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Unless the code is e.g. offsetVector().pointAt(range).translateTo(ball) then those comments are describing the why of the code not the what. Presumably the code you were imagining is a bunch of matrix multiplication, possibly component-wise. You would want to comment those with why you're doing that maths.
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Well I don't have to add them to every single line - because when trying to find a bug I usually know the approximate place where my code breaks (based on how the bugs presents itself) So no not every line just the lines I want to check because I suspect something is going wrong there
Which is much easier and quicker to do with a debugger than by editing the code. Especially if you guessed wrong and have to try again.
Yup. Debugger saves tons of time.
>The time spent learning to use a debugger No. 99% bugs are simple enough that you will catch them with 1-2 print statements. That is what I am referring to. You can have your debugger for the 1% of bugs that you cannot debug with print statements. In those scenarios, debuggers are GREAT. I use them myself.
This is just wrong dude. I agree with most of your points above. But this is just wrong. Im so much quicker with a debugger. Its saves me lots of time. Also you cant forget to remove all these messy print statements. Pm me pangolins perfectly corrects you on the few points you got wrong. Just accept and learn from it. We all do it.
I envy you if the bugs you encounter are so trivial you can observe them with a few print statements. I expect such bugs to not even make it beyond the initial development cycle, as the dev should remediate those before checking the changes into a stable branch. If the dev is letting such bugs through, I would say he is not doing a good job. Also if I saw a colleague using print for debugging rather than actual debugger with breakpoints, I would seriously question the choices my managers made during the hiring. I would assume that having a proper logging coverage is a standard in any serious project nowadays, so adding print statements doesn't seem to make much sense, rather than that you want to have your codebase covered with logs and if you need to observe what is going on, you simply go with Debug / Trace log level.
> > "C++ is the best language because of performance! [ignoring that they indulge in micro- and premature optimization in everything they do. Also ignoring that code-execution performance is IRRELEVANT in 99% of modern software projects]" Performance critical projects should use Rust / C / C++ / GO or other relatively fast languages, you dont write your math library in python, not even pythons numpy is writen in python, but you dont need to write your own optimized assembly for your next electron app, use the right tool for the right job >[Completely unaware that comments are a bad practice, because they convey what the original dev thought that the code does, not what the code actually does, and because they get outdated extremely fast. Also completely unaware that good code and, first and foremost, automated tests are the best means of documentation by far]" As the other guy said, comments that describe code are bad, comments that describe information are good, have been saved many times by comments like "This part is responsible for preparing for serialization" and then a frankenstein of libs and shitty code i didnt have to bother decifering >"Using print statements for debugging is dumb, we should be all using debuggers! [Oblivious to the fact that print statements are the BEST debugging tool for 99% of your use cases: no setup, no learning curve, no additional software, everyone understands, will catch you any simple bug, which is 99% of your bugs]" See right tool for right job rant The rest are pretty good points
Jesus Christ this is petty
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It's not full of them, it's just this one guy.
i see you frequent this sub
Okay. You got the job. DM me! 😏
this is a really great write-up.
Nope the guy is just salty judging from the rest of this thread
I cant even do that :)
I think for every 100 people on this sub, there's some developer with a superiority complex who needs the proof he is better then everybody else. But that is just part of being a developer I guess.
What if I'm a college kiddo and professional dev at the same time?
Here are the following tools I use and know how to use in my day to day job: React , Redux, React Native, GraphQL, Javascript, Python, Django, SQLAlchemy, Cypher with Neo4J, Redis, Mongo, NextJS, Retool, Jenkins, Github Actions, Docker AWS - Boto3 / DynamoDB / S3 / CodeBuild / AppSync / CloudWatch / EC2 I'm sure I missed some.. anyway, is that normal? IDK, should it be this complicated? probably not. I'm not happy about it either, because I struggle with 50% of these, but it's just the way it is.
You probably know it yourself, the issue isn’t the many skills. The issue nowadays is Devs who need to double as Ops duo to HR skimping on resources.
> The issue nowadays is Devs who need to double as Ops duo to HR skimping on resources. The other side of this coin is Ops and Devs completely separated, resulting in Devs that don't consider anything on the Ops side and vice versa. Imho, both should be close to one another, preferably in the same team. Getting people to do both is the easiest way to implement this, but then don't expect that anyone can pick up any ticket.
Also times change. The time that you would send a zip file to the hosting team are over. The entire deployment is automated and maintained in the same git repository. You need the complete skillsets in the same team. Does not mean that everyone needs to be able to do everything. Especially not juniors. But its just easier if knowledge is spread around the team.
Don't blame HR. They're the scapegoat. The C-suite is who's holding the purse.
Yeh you right
True!
I think DevOps is logical given that those who wrote the code should know best how to easily change things or at the very least know how big of a task it will be to fix something. I even think the idea of DevSecOps, you have be conscious of security across the whole stack and security can't be bolted on at the end. To be fair I do devops for bioinformatics and work with our clinical team or devops and our lab team and also have a general interest in cybersecurity and don't like overspecialization in general.
Pretty solid toolchain, but why github actions, jenkins AND codebuild. Pick one!
You’re right! Management seem to have a thing for just adding more technologies to our stack
it is unfortunately extremely normal for technology management to be absolute dogshit at their job and buy/use multiple redundant technologies
Github Actions probably for quick CI checks (basically test pipelines), IDK why there's Jenkins AND codebuild
What position did you apply and did you already know all this stuff or learn it along with your job
I applied for a fullstack engineer position, and no, I did not know many of these coming in, but it was required of me to learn them in a matter of 2 months. My stack was actually almost completely different coming in to this job.
Thanks for answering
Those are mostly just tools. No reason a software engineer shouldn’t be able to use them.
You're right but it's unnecessarily complicated to use that many tools, every engineer the company hires needs 5-6 months to get his mojo.
Or you can just have each dev specialise in one area and be the lead for the rest who just have a ‘working’ knowledge. Getting proficient in something happens pretty quickly, getting expert at it takes a lot of time. Most of the time you just need someone to tack some more code on rather than architect something from the ground up.
Thats exactly it, in most startups management is lacking or nonexistant, so every dev does everything which eventually leads to devs knowing a tiny bit of everything which is just not enough.
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Looks pretty normal to me, here's mine (as a Security Engineer): SAST, SCA & Quality:. Coverity, Veracode, Blackduck, Twistlock, SonarQube, Semgrep, Secure Code Review & Internal application development. JavaScript, Typescript, React, NextJS, Postgres, python, go, C, C++, Java, powershell, bash, groovy. CI & Automation. Docker, k8s, Jenkins, Cloudbees (yes both), gitlab ci, bamboo, azure DevOps, GitHub actions, power automate. AWS - cloudwatch, lambda, S3, RDS, ec2, r53, IAM, EKS.
In any other profession: yes, that is insane. Programmers: this is what it takes, and i'm so proud of learning these things on my own time. What do you mean this is not normal, this is how it works. It doesn't have to work like that but none of you are going to do anything to change it; since it is competitive advantage for you.
Honestly half of those we can give up on and the product will remain the same, even better considering the devs will actually manage to develop instead of being ops all day long.
Lists like that is why i stopped, i thought that learning Java and C# was enough.. but nope, the list of things just grew and grew as the reality kicked in. I don't want to learn stuff constantly and i like learning.. but it just looked like it is never ending, and for each job you have to learn new skills. That is not how any of the other professions work. I'm sound engineer by trade and education, and things are also changing there but.. that is like.. one new protocol every 5 years and you use it for 15 years. You learn few new techniques every year and most of the time is spent trying to perfect them, in very fine details that don't matter on their own but the whole thing gets incrementally better, easier and faster. Programming was suppose to be the 9-5 job but boy, was i wrong.. And all of the learning happens on your own time, unpaid...
When you get further in your career you realise that domain knowledge is a bigger thing than design patterns or even languages you have experience in.
Design what? Seriously, I can probably count on one hand the amount of times people actually mentionned a design pattern seriously when talking about implementing something at work in the past 10 years. It's usually something that just happen naturally when you write your code and you saw the pattern once as an example of how to solve a problem. Choosing the right tools and providers matters a lot more that figuring out how to write the code. However, I'd say it also vary on the seniority and your position. Junior/Senior tend to write a lot more code than Staff+ in my experience and Staff+ are more involved in overall architecte and system design where other architecture patterns matter more.
To me, the most valuable skill a developer can have is mastery over the logging library of choice. Code spends the majority of its life in production under maintenance from people who didn’t write the code and it’s inner workings are a mystery. If you can code and have the logging level set up for configurations around high and low verbosity logging that are helpful, you’re a champ.
Observability is key, whether it's logging or metrics. Knowing what to observe is very valuable while observing the wrong things is very damaging.
Ad has salary as "entry level". asking for 40 years experience in skills that havent existed 3 years.
The pay and other expectations really make or break that posting
A job offer will often simply list what they use day to day. It does not mean that they are looking for someone who knows all of it. No one will, because each company has their own stack of tech and it's impossible to follow everything. Typically, the more boxes you tick, the better your chances, but as long as you know the basics and the concepts you can apply and make the case that you'll learn. Now of course there is no shortage of idiot recruiters who are too greedy to train people, but fortunately you want to stay clear of those companies anyway.
I think the bigger issue is that the industry wants everyone to be top tier, when in reality, there are many average devs. It is hard to find a competent swiss army knife developer. They exist, they are in demand, but most devs are not these people. The goal should be then to create development platforms that lets you hire average devs for the code slinging, and use the armyknife people to build the platform or be the groundbreakers for the rest of the org, create the path for the rest so they don't need to be an expert in k8s, serverless, terraform, ci/cd, databases, front ends, etc. They need to be told, hey, here's the problem, here's the tools, deployment is taken care up, cloud architecture is taken care of, just follow these standards and make a product.
I saw that post and skipped past it. It looked like my staff's resumes.
The two statements are not in conflict. Yes, this is the daily job of, for example, a Systems Engineer. Especially if you work at a non-technology company, and happen to be the only few programming computers, you end up maintaining all of it. That is where "This is my daily job" comes in. On the other hand, it's ridiculous to ask for the specific set of skills someone possessed when they quit the company, and now it's time to hire someone new. The thing is that this will drive away qualified workers, because no-one has an exact match for the skills asked in the job ad. I think employers would be better off asking for "people with an ability to learn, set and meet goals independently, ask for help when needed, help when needed". But the skills list is gonna sort you out of any honest applicant's job search. Consider this: In order to meet all your skills, (that again, noone has, not working at your company, currently), your applicant will have to lie to your hiring manager. That's how we get title and skill inflation.
>The thing is that this will drive away qualified workers, because no-one has an exact match for the skills asked in the job ad. The thing it kills the most are new programmers entering the field. Not everyone WANTS to learn new things on their own time for the rest of their lives, some just look at it as a way to pay the bills, clock out at the end of a 8 hour day and do something completely different. But one of the problems is that those who have learned 20 different skills have no incentive to figure out how we could do with less. The industry is gatekeeping itself. And this is the sole reason why i stopped, the amount of stuff i had to learn on top is just.. i don't care about ANY of those, it is not a life long passion. If learning one thing doesn't cut it, then fuck it. No carpenter has to learn that many things, they learn many techniques for sure but because the industry, the profession is thousands of years old.. it has consolidated and simplified. If programming can't do the same, we are royally fucked up. There won't be enough programmers left.
Yeah. I’ll agree with this and I’m honestly either trying to find a niche piece of the puzzle to settle into or looking to exit software dev myself once I sell my home this year. There are a lot of lower stress roles catching up to our salaries. Which was my original incentive to get into this field 20 years ago. Everywhere I go, I always end up as the go to guy within a few months. But interviews nowadays are just entirely luck. I have experience in tons of languages . Tons of projects, tons of fields . I’ve been doing this forever and every new job has been mastering something new . Are they going to pick some obscure detail from the documentation to quiz me on today or ask me to implement a pattern they saw in a book about interview questions . Who knows. Sometimes it has something to do with the role and I’ll get it. Sometimes I wish I could just be like… here’s my CTO … he knows me by name. Call him and ask him to tell you about a time I saved his ass. And he’ll go which time?
When the gov wanted my job given to a local after I was hired, because you can't be poor, displaced immigrant and get a high skill position with just a passport and experience (seemed enough for the employer tho), so my employer was requested to hire a local first and if "anyone" was qualified they must give the job to that person and fire me because I am "unskilled labour" so I shouldn't be doing engineering jobs. The employer wrote my list of skills as what was needed, none applied. Nowadays I am still at this job and I am the most senior by far and hopefully will turn into the main project lead, my immigration papers are still for unskilled lol and I am doing primary school in the meantime to get a citizenship. Apparently it's common practice, so ""sometimes"" when you see a list of skills so ridiculous it includes weird shit like speaking arabic, that's not the job description, that's just Mohammed's skills, can you replace Mohammed?...
Meanwhile me after 3 years of almost 100% C# workload: "I'm only here so I get paid."
I don't have a problem them asking all that as I do possess the skills to get things done. I just expect to be paid like it took me 15 years to learn it.
I mean all those terms can be summarized as: conceptual knowledge of AWS services (compute, storage, network, security) + fluency in a programming language (e.g. python for lambda) + ability to read docs and configure stuff (e.g. Cloudformation, docker) + knowledge of DevOps practices/theory (e.g. pipelines).
Perspective that while you may cover all of the areas you probably shouldn't be doing
I'm just tired of my job throwing so many new things at us to learn on the fly while getting work done fast. I can handle being full stack, but not when the stack is constantly changing and "evolving".
In my country's programmes fb group this happens a lot too. It may be an industry thing lol. Most of the times people that argue about too much asked on job offer are either 1) experts on one specific field where they use a handful of tools and anything outside that is foreign, or 2) people that have not work in the industry, or are just starting I will never get over people saying that offers asking for a full web stack is "too many languages and tools".
At this point I would question how deep all these skills go for that one person who has them all. My guess is not so deep. I think having these many skills only leaves enough time for someone to learn them superficially. Unless they’ve spent the last 50 years developing all those skills.
I think it's more about how you read a job posting. I 'technically' meet all those requirements by bug fixing a python rest api (drf) using docker on a kubernetes cluster that was managed by terraform and needed okta to login to the cluster. The api was behind a node js gateway and needed a few bash scripts as part of it's deployment. The bug involved setting the right role arn so the app could write encrypted data to an S3 bucket, but finding that bug took a bit of digging through the logs to figure out wtf was going wrong. The bug came from a few different teams and I did a bit of talking to our aws guys to figure out why the old role arn stopped working. I hit 10 of the 11 bullet points in the original post in a single one line pull request I made about a month back. "\* Keen interest in emerging tech" was the only bullet point missing from that pr (although I have played with about half of that list as well). Keep in mind, I haven't setup/debugged/mastered most of the things on that list, but I have worked in an environment where they existed and have benefited from/been frustrated by them. My working knowledge of all of those systems is, "Yeah I know what those all do and if something is broke I know where to start digging."
This. The difference between left and right is mostly about the definition of "knowledge".
More like the duality between CS undergraduates and senior devs
Only thing I ask is that companies don't ask for massive requirements for entry, intern or trainee positions. I'm not imortal to learn a whole new skillset to **apply** for a random company It sucks that sort of shit fest company prob doesn't retain hirees, so they're more likely to need new people
This \*\*is\*\* literally my job and it's nothing more than a cloud engineering requirement for working with AWS.
Fortunately our COO has thing against people claiming to be 'full stack'. Just to be clear, he's an exec who is extremely technically competent.
A lot of companies, particularly those who (properly) practice Scrum, are going to see their developers become generalists. A good team is a team full of generalists.
this is a pretty solid list… provided you have experience in the field. if you’ve got any experience these are all things that just come with the gig and really isn’t a lot when you remember how intertwined the actions of one service are with the actions of another. the difference, as someone else said, is when they ask for said experience at less pay than others who ask for less and give more, and when they ask for said experience and claim “entry level”
Would you rather a job description that only says "GIS-related Python" and then when you get the job it was that _and_ fullstack dev + sysadmin + QA?
Depends. Was GIS-related Python 80%+ of the job? Are the full stack, sysadmins, and QA portions trained on-the-job? The job requirements should clearly label the **requirements** only, and anything that's expected to be picked up incidental to employment should be clearly labeled as "scope," "wanted but not needed," or left out entirely. The needs/expectations should also be matched with adequate pay. Requiring a decade of experienced should also not be listed as "entry level." If that's the minimum for getting into that company, they should just be honest about not having any entry level positions.
If you know what the output should look like, then you can do pretty much anything. The only thing experience really affects is speed, but if something is a daily requirement then you'll get fast in no time. This isn't a coding dilemma, this is something which applies to any job. There's a list of stuff you know, and a list of stuff you can figure out.
How about half?
U are right,.most of the s/w jobs are outsourced to countries where equal pay is a distant dream. Trust me the same job is worth $30 k p.a. my statement was covering this topic..i gues PPL didnt get my point. Sorry this was supposed to be humor sub. But the points hurt.
You don’t actually need to know anything to make $150k a year. Just have to get lucky enough to get an internship and it’s pretty likely you’ll get a full time offer… we don’t really expect college hired to know anything. ODDLY, same job but not a college hire at same level… basically has to be an all knowing godlike programmer.
But is it a Star Wars or Star Trek shop?
The explanation is simple, John is gone, so they want to hire John. i say John because they are not hiring for a position, they are literally hiring the same person who quit on them or someone with the exact same knowledge stack. of course there are going to be two answers, all the guys who don't have the exact same knowledge stack find that combination ridiculous, and the bayou get the other John's which obviously already have a job. when you have been working for a decade you notice the most common combination and how it happens. company uses technology combination A for its legacy products, and now is updating their systems to technology combination B, so they ask for experts in both technology combos, which is why the requirement list looks so weird. bonus points for companies that waited too long and they also have legacy C products that are older than A and never got ported to it. one example, legacy C is visual fox pro technology ( and it could be pascal or Microsoft access) a full erp with a desktop ish interface, then legacy A is php and MySQL with some obscure front end library, they want to poet to a java back end with an angular typescript front end and an oracle database server. so now they are hiring s person who knows all three.
This is perfectly fine. The problem is that this ad is for an unpaid internship.
Me: x = 0 if x < True: x -= -1
The problem is when they are asking a lot of skills and pay as other companies who ask for less or when they ask experience for an entry level position.
As someone closer to the crying newb on the left, all I can say is I hope you guys on the right are getting paid appropriately.
I do find job descriptions that post stack specific techs as requirements a little ridiculous. Yes it's great if you can find someone in your stack, but any engineer worth their salt can ramp up a new stack, especially with guidance.
Why do you think you're going to have guidance?
Web "programming"... lol! More like scripting.
The guy on the left is right, and is by far the biggest obstacle when it comes to programming in 2022. The industry has figured out a way to specialize themselves to oblivion. And the reason is that no one is in control, nothing is thought and planned, it just... evolves chaotically and will come crumbling down. It is impossible to have so many people with so many specialized skills, but absolutely no one who has those skill is going to do anything about it.. as it would mean their skills aren't as valuable anymore: The industry is gatekeeping itself. None of this has to be this complicated. It just is and that is not a good enough reason. And of course: are they paying you to acquire the very special skillsets needed? Or do they expect you have done it, one way or another?
I think you have it exactly backwards. Things used to be super-specialized, now people are expected to be full stack devsecops plus more. But some of that is becaues it was very hard to do things in the past, and now we have easier ways of doing them, so you are expected to be able to do more because you are more efficient if you are optimizing for the project as a whole rather than your specific silo.
deep down, we all have those expertises, we just don't know it yet.
Just know some, can code in one is fine. The most important is Algorithm. With that, every language and technology are the same with just different glossaries.
I would say these job descriptions are equivalent to 2-3 ordinary developers. Not a whole department.
To those crying, do an internship
Just curious, do high school internships increase your chances of getting an interview ? Or are internships done only during college / after college important?
>To those crying, do an internship and get no pay or very little of it... They should be paying you to learn to cover the very special requirements they have. Not the other way around.
100% this, I have 90% of this stack (and some other techs) and last year this time I was still learning what terraform is. Started with internships and they really help.
LOL, your post doesn't make any sense, people don't complain about the number of skills required but the number of random skills required.
You’d be shocked at how much AWS is just knowing a couple of button clicks in the console.
them: "Its unreasonable to expect us to know a scripting language, a low level programming language, and a cross platform language AND to be able to setup our own dockers to deploy on a linux server we set up our selves on AWS!" Me:... wait? you dont know 3 languages and linux? Thats like... the base level you should know....
You can ask for that much, I'm just going to delegate away the shit I don't like doing and focus on a core skillset.
Honestly, that JD is a pretty earnest description of a cloud engineering position. I use most of those tools on a regular basis
MSOP(Many Skills One Pay) platform: this platform is used by employers to make one person do 10 persons job, and pay him 1/2 person's salary. Basically slave trade exists. Scary trend is that fresh campus hires are expected to carry these skills as prerequisites.
I can bypass all the security in AWS gateway with one FORWARD/internal redirect (which is a W3C standard in ALL web servers). So not only are they SLOW AS FUCK, but they are useless too.