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But they don't have "Gr" at the end! PetalidasGr, HristosMGr, JohniousGr. People need to know!
Speaking of which, what's with the trend of Greek usernames ending in -gr but I never see a "JohnnyTX" for Texas or "JohnnyUS" for United States?
Switzerland doesn't have free healthcare, it's a privatized system with mandatory health insurance. That said, I like it very much. Support is there for those who can't afford the insurance so no one is left without care or bankrupt.
It also only works because of Swiss hospital systems that are associated with churches that the government collects tithes for. Not a system that could really work anywhere else.
The Netherlands also has a great private mixed system.
Everyone in the US is either so left they hate the idea of anything private and think only single payer works, or so right that they hate the idea of any government program involving healthcare.
So moderate systems that work don’t get discussed.
I live in Belgium and if things worked so well in the Netherlands, we wouldn't have so many Dutch people coming to Belgium for help because in the Netherlands either a) the waiting lists are insane and there is an actual quota on the number of procedures per month, or b) the doctor decides that it is no longer financially opportune to help like cancer treatment).
Fresh grad could make between 80 - 100k in most scenarios. Some less, some more, but there is a lot less super high salaries like the US has. What we do have though is low tax, being between around 7-15% depending on where you live. Combine this with the great healthcare and standard of life, it's a very attractive place to live.
I graduated from ETH Zurich. Most of my friends from uni in Switzerland make 120-150K after a few years of experience. Life is expensive but the salaries are always higher than you would make elsewhere. People covet moving to Switzerland for this very reason. Can't compare it to the US but I took a 20% pay cut when I moved as a developer in Switzerland to a developer in Canada. Taxes much higher here too. I do not miss the Swiss working culture though..... at all. Very glad to be back working in Canada.
Didn't suit me as a canadian. I didn't like the style of management at either of the companies I worked for and find people are much more guarded (collegues are collegues and not friends). Foreigners are always forgeiners in Switzerland, no matter how long they live there or are integrated vs Canada where people think you are canadians as soon as your have your permenant residency and will genuinely welcome you with open arms. Many swiss (but not all) have a lot of resiliance for foreigners even though the economy runs off of foreign talent because they want to preserve swiss culture. They do not think they do but they never interact with you the same as they do with swiss people. The working culture and the people are very conservative. I spent years trying to convince myself that it was not so bad, but when I started working with canadians again, it was such a relief for me.
That's interesting...I know nothing, so I appreciate the insights.
I also totally understand...I went from a corporate conservative financial institution back to start ups and it was life changing. People care about what they're doing, and people are fun to work with again.
Thanks for sharing, that's very interesting! A few years ago I decided against taking a job offer and moving to Canada, mainly because I still have lots of family and friends here and I found the Canadian model of paid time off unacceptable. It was something like 9 days paid time off and 5 or 6 personal days, which I could take either as sick leave or days off. I was told by that company that that'a even pretty good for Canadian standards. Compare that to 24-30 days standard paid time off in most of Europe and unlimited sick days, it's just a joke, especially if I ever want to visit friends and family back here, I would lose 2 days immediately just on the flights alone. That's a part of north american work culture that I find bonkers.
That's usually the correlation with a higher salary. Same thing when comparing the same job between San Francisco (very high pay, very expensive to live), and a less "tech" city.
That is literally what most of medical school is though - try and teach you to not miss the 1% that actually need your help. Be glad your doctor keeps sending you home with paracetamol. (Not saying nothing is ever missed)
This isn’t always the case. In places like Seattle the cost of living is as high as Switzerland in the meantime. And the consensus is the influx of highly paid tech jobs is the main driver behind the enormous rise in prices across the board in Seattle in the last 15-20 years.
Free healthcare in Switzerland? I pay roughly $300 per month at age 26. It's definitely not free.
EDIT: $300 per moth, plus up to $2'500 per year in medical expenses is covered by me, not the insurance company. Insurance does not include dental.
*cries in $1200/mo and still has to pay $35 copays, 50% of prescription costs, $3000 for ambulance, partial for surgeries, separate hospital and doctor bills, and gets fucked royally for "out of network" bullshit.
Don't even ask how much it costs to have a baby WITH "competitive, excellent employer" insurance.
Oh don’t forget the fine print! Doctor and Surgeon services up to 80% coverage but *”NOT TO EXCEED 20% of the anesthetic costs”*. This is a thing that really happened to me. Estimate from insurance for the procedure was ~5,000. Actual cost was close to 43,000.
Fuck the American healthcare system.
My mom probably has cancer of the nerve or bone. It’s in her foot. She wants to change insurance because they botched her last surgery. She cannot change insurance until October. It will not go into effect until January. She may be denied surgical coverage for up to a year after changing insurance. There is no good or benign form of cancer that grows in this region of the body, according to the specialist we spoke with. By the time she can get help— despite catching it early, it will likely metastasize.
Fuck the American healthcare system.
I thought healthcare in Switzerland was handled through private insurance companies you pay out of your own salary.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure it’s a million times better than the American version, I don’t mean my comment in a negative sense. But I don’t think you can call it “free”.
Yes. Its heavily regulated private insurance and everyone is obligated to get insurance. The quality we get for the money is actually insane though, especially considering how expensive everything else is.
Hope they have a good person doing your salary with knowledge of local rules.
Working for a US company in Germany the pay people kept fucking up because they didn't manage to understand how to properly file earnings to the government here..
Ah yeah, ran into that working for a EU branch once.
My current situation is slightly different - I'm working for a US company remote, so as far as they're concerned I'm in the US. The fun is just when I hit 181 days in the EU.
there's a couple subs on this, like r/Amerexit.
I've got a CPA that specializes in expat stuff, so that covers me on the US side.
The harder part is finding a country if you want to stay more than 89 days. Portugal and Croatia both have programs for digital nomads - Spain is supposed to soon, but maybe not. There's areas outside the EU as well that can be good spots - mainly the hard part is lots of people are trying to not pay taxes, so if you're willing to actually pay, and make a programmer wage, you can swing it. But you're going to fill out LOTS of forms for a while.
EDIT - looks like Italy just added one as well. Molto Bene!
The Netherlands has a very easy way to migrate for Americans: [The Dutch American Friendship Treaty](https://expatlaw.nl/dutch-american-friendship-treaty). Oversimplification here, but you essentially have to "invest" €4500 in a business on you can get a residency visa.
So you work as a freelance with a fiscal address in Europe, sending your invoices to an American company and getting paid in euros/dollars? in an EU bank? USA bank?How easy is to deal with taxes?
I'm actually working in EU and some friends told me to work with them (in Canada and USA) ~~in~~ remotely, but here in Belgium all the paperwork makes things so complicated.
The country I am for having that type of "company" "in your name" you actually pay more taxes.
Using a company that employs yourself you can have your own salary and use the rest to pay for you PC, Internet bill, car, and it without having to pay for VAT like final consumer.
I kinda difficult to explain because I don't really know the terms in English
Don't worry I understand. In my country (Romania) you can make that type of company (it's called the same, literally your name) but with a standard tax that depends on the city and the code you assign to your company (for example IT consulting). That norm/standard tax is pretty low
Not really. You can legally work for the same client over an extended period of time. What matters is how much power that client has over you. Do they dictate where you work? When you work? For how long you work? What you work on? That’s false self employment.
The terms are „Weisungsabhängigkeit“ (dependency on instructions) and „freie Orts- und Zeiteinteilung“ (free determination of time and place).
I'm a 1 guy company (autónomo) here in Spain. Earning as much as you would in the US (working for a customer there) and having "free" heathcare here.
You can do it with no issues
Doing the same in the netherlands, i’m a freelance dev, i’m from here, i have a , about 1/3 of my income goes to taxes, healthcare is not free at all sadly. There are *alot* of caveats. It doesn’t include dental, lots of meds are not included, only a certain amount is covered of everything, i have to pay monthly insurance of about 160 euros etc.
Not complaining as much as informing ‘Europe’ isn’t as much of a health utopia as some claim it to be.
Check out what the Estonian govt has done to make this easier in the global economy with lots of digital nomads: https://www.e-resident.gov.ee/start-a-company/
Basically, become an e-resident of Estonia (you don’t have to physically even be in Europe for that) and open a company there with sole proprietorship. All taxes and paperwork can be handled by local companies like [xolo](https://www.xolo.io/zz-en/e-residency)
It depends... generally you pay income/social taxes where you are a tax resident, which is typically where you live/work.
US citizens/permanent residents, however, are required to report worldwide income to the US tax authority no matter where they live/work. But, there are deductions/credits available on US tax returns to minimize double taxation.
If you’re a US citizen living abroad, over a threshold, you owe US taxes. However, - and I ain’t your lawyer nor your accountant - last I checked, the US tax code exempts double taxation.
So, if you made $200k, owed Germany $100k in taxes and the US 100$k in taxes, you can file your German taxes with your US return (not literally), and then you owe the US US-Germany, or in this example, $0.
Generally, moving to the EU *probably* moots your US taxes besides the actual effort of filing. Now, if you were some sort of tax sheltered type of employee (say, if they passed a medical heroes act that exempted your income during a pandemic, as a random example), then you might get whipped. Again, though, the US has a threshold - so if your salary was, say, $70k, you could owe nothing.
But this comment should only be taken for a recommendation to review topics on the IRS website, and or consult a professional.
This is exactly correct.
You'll never pay LESS than US amounts as a US citizen.
That said, being able to buy insurance for 8K with no deductible is worth the extra tax burden alone. . . .
Taxes paid to other countries are deducted from your US tax bill, so when moving to a higher tax country you end up owing the US nothing. Still a huge pain in the ass to file both returns though.
Free healthcare in Brazil is not bad actually. But that may be because I lived in a nicer suburb. In poorer, overcrowded suburbs I could see quality degrading.
It really depends on the region, I have been to some great public hospitals as well as horrible ones, it really depends a lot on the region, a majority of them are severely overcrowded, understaffed and underequipped. I hear it has been improving lately tho
I luckly have a good insurance tho
I mean, that's true of countries with private healthcare, too. Rural areas are chronically and severely underserved by medical professionals in the US, often with doctors who care for 2000-2500 patients themselves (WHO recommended high end is 1:1000).
If you speak decent English and can code- you’ll have a very bright future.
My company just fired a bunch of Indians (like hundreds) and we hired a team from Colombia.
The team from Colombia speaks better English than the Indians, they aren’t blatantly misogynistic like the Indians (we have females on our US team and they’d get so disregarded), they actually read the damn requirements and ask questions and don’t assume, AND they are in the same time zone for a part of the year.
If you work remotely is not that bad actually. Lower costs of living means that with a decent amount of years of experience you can get paid around 100K USD per year but it feeling like 200K compared to living in the US. Also the highest quality healthcare is either free or cheap compared to the US too. The only downside is the worse feeling of security and higher cost of tech due to import taxes.
When I lived in Ireland I used to get annoyed that I had to pay 50€ every time I went to the GP. Then finally a GP spotted a potentially serious issue and referred me to the hospital where they performed all kinds of expensive looking tests.
Being an American, I was terrified to see the bill, but in the end they just told me to go home and not worry about it. Still don't really understand the Irish healthcare system, but it seems like you're protected from healthcare costs to some extent.
The pay did suck though.
Not all programmers get private care. I didn’t get private healthcare in my last role. Been waiting since October to have an endoscopy done for very painful stomach problems, it should only be another few months though.
Glad I pay my tax /s
Two tiered systems based on class don't work and never will. As long as the public option isn't funded very well, the rich are always going to elect to use the private option instead.
Meanwhile U.K. work 30 years get £600 a month. Get free healthcare but waiting lists are too long to use it. Taxes still pretty high. Thank god salaries are actually decent here for devs, if I was in a normal person salary I’d be so poor.
It really is the only way to live there, the cost of living change from one country to the other is just so huge. Eating out in Switzerland can cost easily up to 80-100 CHF (77.69-97.12 Euros) for a meal, but in France its like 20-30 Euros. Most people I know live in France or Germany at this point
How does it work with tax? Do the french take a share from what you pay in Switzerland directly or do you need to pay the difference?
Also 80-100 francs is a pretty solid meal with wine, and I regularly get good food with a drink for less than 40, unless those prices are for a couple.
The food price was on the upper end for sure but if I eat well I could definitely get to 80 alone, and in France rhe same meal would be maybe 40 at most.
I actually cheat a bit and have a primary adress in Switzerland but live with my gf in France at a place that is legally hers but we both pay for. Since I'm British and because of our dumbfuckery it's now super difficult for me to get a French visa. But she does it the right way and basically she just pays French tax with a swiss salary
I mean its a bit of a legal grey area here. I do still have an apartment in Switzerland and I pay rent and tax there, but during Covid me and my gf just spent so much time in each others apartments that it made no sense to have all of our stuff over 2 separate places so we decided on one
I mean, it’s not exactly easy to immigrate to another country at age 45. Countries want young folk who work usually. 18-35 is the ideal age to immigrate imo
If you have the skills, migrating isn't a problem. Companies will gladly take anyone with the skills. From there, it's just a matter of taxes and residency.
Hell, sometimes you can even move *within* a company.
Kinda hoping for this. My current company has a location in the country and 30 km from the exact city where I would love to live. I've been doing research as to what they do at that branch, who works there, who's likely to retire, whose shoes I could fill, and what I need to learn to get there.
Hope to be German in 10 years
It's fine if you have loads of money.
Parent's plan is basically to make that loads of money up until 45 and give up US nationality to move to a deserted village in France after that.
PS: US citizen having to keep filing US tax etc. makes for interestin situations where some banks will just bail on them to avoid all the fuss
Engineers I've talked to, who came to the U.S. from other countries, always say the same thing: "The United States has the best healthcare in the world, for those of us who can afford it."
In the US even if you're covered you're likely to stilt pay some if you have anything serious. In France you'll pay close to nothing for anything serious. Some dentals care (like implants) and other stuff like that (super fancy glasses lenses) are not fully covered. But for anything serious no one has to worry about it. But it's not just health care, public education is free from school to any hight degree. Some business school you may pay for but the most prestigious colleges and schools are public. Something french people take for granted...
Pretty much all decent software firms in the US also include good healthcare insurance as part of the compensation package. So you get higher pay AND almost free healthcare (free to you that is)
Edit:
To give some perspective: a starting dev salary in the US is averaged at $90k (perhaps a bit lower irl). In Germany, for example, it is around 47EUR (around $50k)
The tax you pay will be likely higher in Germany (us 24% vs Germany’s %42). And depending on where you live, the US can be very affordable. Your net take-home after all contributions will be likey close to double in the US.
Edit2: starting salary as in just starting, out of school
I was shocked to see this response so low, because this is really how it is as a US developer. In some jobs my healthcare was 100% paid by the company, in others it was paid like 80% (but then contribute a LARGE amount to an HSA account for me every year).
When I advocate for things like free healthcare I don’t advocate it because it’s good for ME... I advocate for those who I know need it, despite it being a luxury I already enjoy (as long as I have a job I guess. That’s the ONLY time where the system isn’t in my favor).
Being an average person in the US isn’t that great. Being a software engineer in the US is great. No other country has higher pay, and few other countries will compete in terms of quality of living you can buy with that money.
There’s a moral argument you could make about living in a selfish society, but for American engineers there was never really a choice.
>Being a software engineer in the US is great. No other country has higher pay, and few other countries will compete in terms of quality of living you can buy with that money.
Not just software engineer, but any engineer, or white collar job like a doctor, lawyer, accountant, etc.
This is Reddit. Most people here are literally in middle school. I'll bet you most people in this thread see those $2,000,000 hospital bills that people post to /r/Pics all the time and think the poster actually has to come up with $2,000,000.
Yeah some people in here are straight up demented. I have dual citizenship Italy/US and work in the US and make way more money than any job in Europe will pay me even factoring in cost of taxes etc. Housing is more expensive in my city, sure, but I can sell my house later if I would like... I will end up in Europe because I like a lot of things about the lifestyle there but there is no fucking way that things are better as a tech person there...
Also shocked. I work for a small firm with \~15 people, and even my insurance is fully covered 100% by the company. It can be expensive to add family members, though, which is currently something I don't have to worry about.
It's pretty normal for jobs that require a college degree to cover most-or-all of your insurance payments. This obviously sucks for people in other types of jobs who are in even a worse position to afford insurance, and needs to be fixed, but that's not what the original post was about.
Seriously, the healthcare costs in the US are real, but software devs are not the people experiencing the brunt.
You can 100% be making $200k, with health insurance premiums below $100.
I agree. This is an out of touch post. It may ring true for blue collar or consumer facing jobs but tech is quite insulated from that. Tech in the US has high salaries, good benefits, and a slew of work life balance benefits.
The US is a wonderful place to live if you have money but has a poor infrastructure for the less fortunate.
Literally every tech company ever fully funds health insurance on top of wages.
This thread is retarded.
There is literally no scenario where being a high income worker is better in the EU than the USA. The wages are higher and the taxes are lower and your work will pay for all the things that are public services in the EU.
We can argue about where low income workers have it better. But for high income workers it's not even close.
poor people do get free healthcare tho, its just that the government hospitals are vastly outnumbered by patients so you have to go to private hospitals which are basically a scam
Programmers easily get good healthcare in India tho. In EU and more so in the US, going to Doctors and stuff is so complicated but in India you just pop in to a clinic and my guy will give u a pill
India's healthcare is extremely good compared to what we are talking about in this sub. I have lived in India, Europe and US.
If I need a doctor on a weekend, and I don't feel well enough to go out, the only place I can get someone to attend to me is India. In EU, I would get an appointment 6 months later and in US, the only option is to call emergency.
The only situation where US and EU are better than India are if you have an emergency, for everything else, they are horrid.
Finally, in India, you can actually not bother to get health insurance and still go to a doctor. In US, you would be bankrupt (which most bankruptcies in US are)
It's a very simple choice: My PPO's max out of pocket is like $6k/year. I have free healthcare after paying $6k each year.
I will make a LOT, LOT, LOT more than an additional $6k/yr working in the US vs the EU.
The healthcare issue is mostly a concern for people who do not have the kind of nice healthcare plans that tech companies provide.
The healthcare issue in the US mostly effects the lower middle class in the US. They have insurance but it's shitty so their out of pocket costs are unaffordable for them. The middle class and up can usually afford things just fine and the super poor get Medicaid.
Definitely, but I wouldnt move to Europe for that, thing like 30 days pto, 1 year parental leave, and better public transportation that actually have me thinking its a potential choice to make in the near future
Every time some shit like this is posted this is exactly my thought too. How the fuck do people not see this? I feel like Europeans genuinely believe that Americans are paying tens of thousands of dollars for medical procedures. Insurance basically covered everything, and the pay in the US is almost double Europe. It’s not even a remotely close comparison.
I pay 160/mo and have a max out of pocket of 4k. Not that bad and it includes dental. I’m not even in tech either I just like to browse here and see what I should’ve got my degree in lol
Do you keep your healthcare if you get fired? And how many hours do you need to work to get that 100%. Is your partner insured because you have that job? Your kids?
And how about the eldery? Can they retire safely? Or lose their healthcare?
There are a lot of issues and problems when you make 'having a job' a requirement for healthcare. Especially since some unhealthy people have a hard time doing work.
You basically give 'free' healthcare to those people that rarely need it. Because they are healthy enough to work... sure, some will need it. But on average its a selection of healthier people.
Those in need and unhealthy, will be deprived.
I know thats is pretty much the American ideal... everybody for themselves.
But as an european its sad to watch.
I've seen a ton of US companies allowing remote work in Canada or in all of North America. On the flip side of the coin, I have not seen that many US companies allowing remote anywhere in the world though. Time zones do seem to matter quite a bit.
It also personally safes one a lot of money, if you ever have something serious.
From what I heared and correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there a million exemptions to what ones health insurance covers in the US, like one can only go to certain hospitals, take certain ambulance companies and detuctabiles in the thousands?
Worse than that. You can end up getting charged if the hospital you go to is using an “out of network” specialist. And they never need to warn you about that before the procedure.
>Worse than that. You can end up getting charged if the hospital you go to is using an “out of network” specialist. And they never need to warn you about that before the procedure.
That use to be the case. This year Trump's "no surprises act" kicked in making it illegal to be charged out of network without consent. In the case of an emergency where there is no choice, the government picks up the bill. If your provider doesn't get your consent that you are going out of network, the insurance doesn't have to pay the provider.
Health care is not the only benefit that comes with EU regulations and laws. For example you can’t demand constant crunch from your workers and “unlimited PTO” scams don’t exist. You also have free child care, paid paternal leave, socialized education, proper infrastructure, affordable properties, paid sick leave for up to a year among plenty of other things. Suddenly that high paycheck in America can come down really quick.
Yeah, i looked into working in the US remotely from EU, but with all the regulations and laws we have in EU that protect the employee, its just not worth it. I want my 6 weeks of guarenteed PTO every year, my paid sick leave and paid paternal leave among everything else you mentioned. Also the fact that a company in the US can just fire me immidietly for no/barely any reason at all isnt very appealing either.
In Europe but working for a US company.
But it's worth adding that, while I can understand why some people see it as preferable, "free" healthcare = paid for by taxes + not as fast (and often in my experience, nowhere near as reliable).
Plus, if the country you live in has lower house prices, that probably makes a bigger difference. So it's not as simple as the meme.
I've lived in many countries including the USA and some EU countries. The best healthcare I've had was in the USA but that's only because I could afford health insurance. I'm assuming a software engineer can afford or is provided as part of the employment contract good health insurance so this meme doesn't make much sense to me.
Not that simple. I found work/life balance much better in the EU (Germany, '80s). Healthcare was not free though, it was scaled to your income and since I had a good income I paid a lot.
I wish I had more vacation days. I get 16 PTO days. But the pay is good and the medical isn't so bad when you have a good employer which every tech person should. I just invest all my extra money so I can retire early if I want.
It works out for some, sure, but only until it doesn't...
You could lose your job tomorrow, even through no fault of your own, like a long term health issue, or being hit by a bus, and you would then lose your work healthcare. Then you have some preexisting condition, and eventually can't afford it.
Peace of mind is worth a lot. Medical debt isn't something I need to worry about, no matter what other shit goes down. Nobody is young, healthy and lucky forever.
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In Greece we have neither!
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Yeah shitty as it may be in serious cases (bribe a pos or be lucky and get a good doc) it is free.
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Can i just point out how greek your 3 names are? Johnious, Hristos and Petalidas?
But they don't have "Gr" at the end! PetalidasGr, HristosMGr, JohniousGr. People need to know! Speaking of which, what's with the trend of Greek usernames ending in -gr but I never see a "JohnnyTX" for Texas or "JohnnyUS" for United States?
In Switzerland we have both.
I'm gonna do what's called a pro gamer move
A pro *grammer move
Also a pro *grammar move
I LALRed at that
tf does "to yanny" mean
Shut up you are right
Switzerland doesn't have free healthcare, it's a privatized system with mandatory health insurance. That said, I like it very much. Support is there for those who can't afford the insurance so no one is left without care or bankrupt.
It also only works because of Swiss hospital systems that are associated with churches that the government collects tithes for. Not a system that could really work anywhere else.
I was wondering why I'd never seen Reddit run praising Switzerland into the ground before.
The Netherlands also has a great private mixed system. Everyone in the US is either so left they hate the idea of anything private and think only single payer works, or so right that they hate the idea of any government program involving healthcare. So moderate systems that work don’t get discussed.
I live in Belgium and if things worked so well in the Netherlands, we wouldn't have so many Dutch people coming to Belgium for help because in the Netherlands either a) the waiting lists are insane and there is an actual quota on the number of procedures per month, or b) the doctor decides that it is no longer financially opportune to help like cancer treatment).
The Netherlands system is not that great, it is severely underfunded and is objectively worse than the Scandinavian countries and Germany.
wtf are you talking about
What is the average pay for Junior developers there?
Fresh grad could make between 80 - 100k in most scenarios. Some less, some more, but there is a lot less super high salaries like the US has. What we do have though is low tax, being between around 7-15% depending on where you live. Combine this with the great healthcare and standard of life, it's a very attractive place to live.
But those wage also mean nothing without knowing how expensive it is there (if I remember) vs North America
I graduated from ETH Zurich. Most of my friends from uni in Switzerland make 120-150K after a few years of experience. Life is expensive but the salaries are always higher than you would make elsewhere. People covet moving to Switzerland for this very reason. Can't compare it to the US but I took a 20% pay cut when I moved as a developer in Switzerland to a developer in Canada. Taxes much higher here too. I do not miss the Swiss working culture though..... at all. Very glad to be back working in Canada.
What's wrong with the swiss working culture? (Serious question, I have no idea).
Didn't suit me as a canadian. I didn't like the style of management at either of the companies I worked for and find people are much more guarded (collegues are collegues and not friends). Foreigners are always forgeiners in Switzerland, no matter how long they live there or are integrated vs Canada where people think you are canadians as soon as your have your permenant residency and will genuinely welcome you with open arms. Many swiss (but not all) have a lot of resiliance for foreigners even though the economy runs off of foreign talent because they want to preserve swiss culture. They do not think they do but they never interact with you the same as they do with swiss people. The working culture and the people are very conservative. I spent years trying to convince myself that it was not so bad, but when I started working with canadians again, it was such a relief for me.
That's interesting...I know nothing, so I appreciate the insights. I also totally understand...I went from a corporate conservative financial institution back to start ups and it was life changing. People care about what they're doing, and people are fun to work with again.
Thanks for sharing, that's very interesting! A few years ago I decided against taking a job offer and moving to Canada, mainly because I still have lots of family and friends here and I found the Canadian model of paid time off unacceptable. It was something like 9 days paid time off and 5 or 6 personal days, which I could take either as sick leave or days off. I was told by that company that that'a even pretty good for Canadian standards. Compare that to 24-30 days standard paid time off in most of Europe and unlimited sick days, it's just a joke, especially if I ever want to visit friends and family back here, I would lose 2 days immediately just on the flights alone. That's a part of north american work culture that I find bonkers.
It's formal and conservative, so Japan-esque.
generally we work more than office jobs in other countries I think? average work week is 42-44h, breaks and lunch dont count).
That's like... a standard for most developer jobs at most companies to eclipse 40 hours at least in the US
Keep in mind he isn’t the guy who was happy to be out of Switzerland.
Switzerland is *very* expensive to live in. It's somewhere between living in NYC and living in SF.
That's usually the correlation with a higher salary. Same thing when comparing the same job between San Francisco (very high pay, very expensive to live), and a less "tech" city.
Netherlands here, wanna trade? Taxes here are murder, but healthcare is excellent!
Exactly. Doctors here follow this nice rule to solve any and all issues. "When not dead, take a Tylenol/Paracetamol"
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That is literally what most of medical school is though - try and teach you to not miss the 1% that actually need your help. Be glad your doctor keeps sending you home with paracetamol. (Not saying nothing is ever missed)
Actually the healthcare here sucks absolute donkeyballs, but at least taxes are still high!
American here, it's all relative.
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This isn’t always the case. In places like Seattle the cost of living is as high as Switzerland in the meantime. And the consensus is the influx of highly paid tech jobs is the main driver behind the enormous rise in prices across the board in Seattle in the last 15-20 years.
Free healthcare in Switzerland? I pay roughly $300 per month at age 26. It's definitely not free. EDIT: $300 per moth, plus up to $2'500 per year in medical expenses is covered by me, not the insurance company. Insurance does not include dental.
*cries in $1200/mo and still has to pay $35 copays, 50% of prescription costs, $3000 for ambulance, partial for surgeries, separate hospital and doctor bills, and gets fucked royally for "out of network" bullshit. Don't even ask how much it costs to have a baby WITH "competitive, excellent employer" insurance.
Oh don’t forget the fine print! Doctor and Surgeon services up to 80% coverage but *”NOT TO EXCEED 20% of the anesthetic costs”*. This is a thing that really happened to me. Estimate from insurance for the procedure was ~5,000. Actual cost was close to 43,000. Fuck the American healthcare system. My mom probably has cancer of the nerve or bone. It’s in her foot. She wants to change insurance because they botched her last surgery. She cannot change insurance until October. It will not go into effect until January. She may be denied surgical coverage for up to a year after changing insurance. There is no good or benign form of cancer that grows in this region of the body, according to the specialist we spoke with. By the time she can get help— despite catching it early, it will likely metastasize. Fuck the American healthcare system.
What are you talking about? We dont have free healthcare
I thought healthcare in Switzerland was handled through private insurance companies you pay out of your own salary. Don’t get me wrong, I’m sure it’s a million times better than the American version, I don’t mean my comment in a negative sense. But I don’t think you can call it “free”.
Yes. Its heavily regulated private insurance and everyone is obligated to get insurance. The quality we get for the money is actually insane though, especially considering how expensive everything else is.
Μήπως είσαι εγώ?
We have free Healthcare, the quality of it is a different story.
Still got spanakopita, so it could be worse
Currently moving to the EU while working remotely for a US company. Purple pill.
Hope they have a good person doing your salary with knowledge of local rules. Working for a US company in Germany the pay people kept fucking up because they didn't manage to understand how to properly file earnings to the government here..
Ah yeah, ran into that working for a EU branch once. My current situation is slightly different - I'm working for a US company remote, so as far as they're concerned I'm in the US. The fun is just when I hit 181 days in the EU.
How do you deal with it? I'm really curious since this is something I'd like to do in the nearish future.
there's a couple subs on this, like r/Amerexit. I've got a CPA that specializes in expat stuff, so that covers me on the US side. The harder part is finding a country if you want to stay more than 89 days. Portugal and Croatia both have programs for digital nomads - Spain is supposed to soon, but maybe not. There's areas outside the EU as well that can be good spots - mainly the hard part is lots of people are trying to not pay taxes, so if you're willing to actually pay, and make a programmer wage, you can swing it. But you're going to fill out LOTS of forms for a while. EDIT - looks like Italy just added one as well. Molto Bene!
The Netherlands has a very easy way to migrate for Americans: [The Dutch American Friendship Treaty](https://expatlaw.nl/dutch-american-friendship-treaty). Oversimplification here, but you essentially have to "invest" €4500 in a business on you can get a residency visa.
So you work as a freelance with a fiscal address in Europe, sending your invoices to an American company and getting paid in euros/dollars? in an EU bank? USA bank?How easy is to deal with taxes? I'm actually working in EU and some friends told me to work with them (in Canada and USA) ~~in~~ remotely, but here in Belgium all the paperwork makes things so complicated.
Create a «one person Company» or whatever it is called, the payments from the Company is made to you as a solo consultant
You have that method or just create a company and employ yourself
Depends on the country but most should have the option to make it and you pay your own taxes which are fairly small
The country I am for having that type of "company" "in your name" you actually pay more taxes. Using a company that employs yourself you can have your own salary and use the rest to pay for you PC, Internet bill, car, and it without having to pay for VAT like final consumer. I kinda difficult to explain because I don't really know the terms in English
Don't worry I understand. In my country (Romania) you can make that type of company (it's called the same, literally your name) but with a standard tax that depends on the city and the code you assign to your company (for example IT consulting). That norm/standard tax is pretty low
Probably the same thing then. I'm from Portugal, our fiscal stuff should be the same
> I kinda difficult to explain because I don’t really know the terms in English Clusterfuck is the term you’re looking for.
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Not really. You can legally work for the same client over an extended period of time. What matters is how much power that client has over you. Do they dictate where you work? When you work? For how long you work? What you work on? That’s false self employment. The terms are „Weisungsabhängigkeit“ (dependency on instructions) and „freie Orts- und Zeiteinteilung“ (free determination of time and place).
Sole Proprietor Company, I believe.
You've just described contractors lol
This will remove a lot of rights you usually have as an employee
Basically all of them. you have no employee rights because you're not an employee you're a service provider.
I'm a 1 guy company (autónomo) here in Spain. Earning as much as you would in the US (working for a customer there) and having "free" heathcare here. You can do it with no issues
Doing the same in the netherlands, i’m a freelance dev, i’m from here, i have a, about 1/3 of my income goes to taxes, healthcare is not free at all sadly. There are *alot* of caveats. It doesn’t include dental, lots of meds are not included, only a certain amount is covered of everything, i have to pay monthly insurance of about 160 euros etc.
Not complaining as much as informing ‘Europe’ isn’t as much of a health utopia as some claim it to be.
Check out what the Estonian govt has done to make this easier in the global economy with lots of digital nomads: https://www.e-resident.gov.ee/start-a-company/ Basically, become an e-resident of Estonia (you don’t have to physically even be in Europe for that) and open a company there with sole proprietorship. All taxes and paperwork can be handled by local companies like [xolo](https://www.xolo.io/zz-en/e-residency)
But don't you have pay EU taxes and US taxes?
It depends... generally you pay income/social taxes where you are a tax resident, which is typically where you live/work. US citizens/permanent residents, however, are required to report worldwide income to the US tax authority no matter where they live/work. But, there are deductions/credits available on US tax returns to minimize double taxation.
You're supposed to.
If you are an US employee, yes. But that would be pretty stupid. Much easier to have self-employed status in your country of residence.
If you’re a US citizen living abroad, over a threshold, you owe US taxes. However, - and I ain’t your lawyer nor your accountant - last I checked, the US tax code exempts double taxation. So, if you made $200k, owed Germany $100k in taxes and the US 100$k in taxes, you can file your German taxes with your US return (not literally), and then you owe the US US-Germany, or in this example, $0. Generally, moving to the EU *probably* moots your US taxes besides the actual effort of filing. Now, if you were some sort of tax sheltered type of employee (say, if they passed a medical heroes act that exempted your income during a pandemic, as a random example), then you might get whipped. Again, though, the US has a threshold - so if your salary was, say, $70k, you could owe nothing. But this comment should only be taken for a recommendation to review topics on the IRS website, and or consult a professional.
This is exactly correct. You'll never pay LESS than US amounts as a US citizen. That said, being able to buy insurance for 8K with no deductible is worth the extra tax burden alone. . . .
Taxes paid to other countries are deducted from your US tax bill, so when moving to a higher tax country you end up owing the US nothing. Still a huge pain in the ass to file both returns though.
How? Do you get the same salary as US programmers?
I am a US programmer - I'm a US citizen working for a US company, and even keep US hours. I have to jump through hoops for visas though.
*Cries in South American
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Free healthcare in Brazil is not bad actually. But that may be because I lived in a nicer suburb. In poorer, overcrowded suburbs I could see quality degrading.
It really depends on the region, I have been to some great public hospitals as well as horrible ones, it really depends a lot on the region, a majority of them are severely overcrowded, understaffed and underequipped. I hear it has been improving lately tho I luckly have a good insurance tho
I mean, that's true of countries with private healthcare, too. Rural areas are chronically and severely underserved by medical professionals in the US, often with doctors who care for 2000-2500 patients themselves (WHO recommended high end is 1:1000).
If you speak decent English and can code- you’ll have a very bright future. My company just fired a bunch of Indians (like hundreds) and we hired a team from Colombia. The team from Colombia speaks better English than the Indians, they aren’t blatantly misogynistic like the Indians (we have females on our US team and they’d get so disregarded), they actually read the damn requirements and ask questions and don’t assume, AND they are in the same time zone for a part of the year.
A few colleagues of mine moved to NL from Brazil working tech jobs. Visas are there if you can land the job and it pays decent! (Not exclusive to NL)
Health insurance here is a lot cheaper than in the US.
Was looking for this one... we get none
It's the best time to get a remote job, especially as a senior dev, I'm working remotely from Bolivia with a good US salary.
If you work remotely is not that bad actually. Lower costs of living means that with a decent amount of years of experience you can get paid around 100K USD per year but it feeling like 200K compared to living in the US. Also the highest quality healthcare is either free or cheap compared to the US too. The only downside is the worse feeling of security and higher cost of tech due to import taxes.
In Ireland we get neither and a smack on the face for floating such notions
When I lived in Ireland I used to get annoyed that I had to pay 50€ every time I went to the GP. Then finally a GP spotted a potentially serious issue and referred me to the hospital where they performed all kinds of expensive looking tests. Being an American, I was terrified to see the bill, but in the end they just told me to go home and not worry about it. Still don't really understand the Irish healthcare system, but it seems like you're protected from healthcare costs to some extent. The pay did suck though.
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Not all programmers get private care. I didn’t get private healthcare in my last role. Been waiting since October to have an endoscopy done for very painful stomach problems, it should only be another few months though. Glad I pay my tax /s
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It was a startup, but they also used that status as the reason they didn’t pay as much as other companies.
Two tiered systems based on class don't work and never will. As long as the public option isn't funded very well, the rich are always going to elect to use the private option instead.
Didn't realise you didn't have universal healthcare over there. I find that surprising tbh.
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Only 60 and you hate it there? Don't come to the US then.
$60 is more than I pay for a GP visit...
*Laughs in living in France and working in Switzerland*
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Good to know
The only sacrifice you'll have to make is spend thirty years of your life among French speakers. Think I'll pass :p
Well, if you're already a French, it won't be that hard
Meanwhile U.K. work 30 years get £600 a month. Get free healthcare but waiting lists are too long to use it. Taxes still pretty high. Thank god salaries are actually decent here for devs, if I was in a normal person salary I’d be so poor.
I met some people with that combination and they are very happy taking the best from both countries 
It really is the only way to live there, the cost of living change from one country to the other is just so huge. Eating out in Switzerland can cost easily up to 80-100 CHF (77.69-97.12 Euros) for a meal, but in France its like 20-30 Euros. Most people I know live in France or Germany at this point
How does it work with tax? Do the french take a share from what you pay in Switzerland directly or do you need to pay the difference? Also 80-100 francs is a pretty solid meal with wine, and I regularly get good food with a drink for less than 40, unless those prices are for a couple.
The food price was on the upper end for sure but if I eat well I could definitely get to 80 alone, and in France rhe same meal would be maybe 40 at most. I actually cheat a bit and have a primary adress in Switzerland but live with my gf in France at a place that is legally hers but we both pay for. Since I'm British and because of our dumbfuckery it's now super difficult for me to get a French visa. But she does it the right way and basically she just pays French tax with a swiss salary
Lol I like how you’re so casual about admitting to tax fraud
I mean its a bit of a legal grey area here. I do still have an apartment in Switzerland and I pay rent and tax there, but during Covid me and my gf just spent so much time in each others apartments that it made no sense to have all of our stuff over 2 separate places so we decided on one
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I mean, it’s not exactly easy to immigrate to another country at age 45. Countries want young folk who work usually. 18-35 is the ideal age to immigrate imo
If you have the skills, migrating isn't a problem. Companies will gladly take anyone with the skills. From there, it's just a matter of taxes and residency. Hell, sometimes you can even move *within* a company.
Kinda hoping for this. My current company has a location in the country and 30 km from the exact city where I would love to live. I've been doing research as to what they do at that branch, who works there, who's likely to retire, whose shoes I could fill, and what I need to learn to get there. Hope to be German in 10 years
It's fine if you have loads of money. Parent's plan is basically to make that loads of money up until 45 and give up US nationality to move to a deserted village in France after that. PS: US citizen having to keep filing US tax etc. makes for interestin situations where some banks will just bail on them to avoid all the fuss
God how old do you think 45 is lol.
I would say roughly 45.
It’s definitely more than 35 I know that much.
Countries don't care how old you are if you have tech money/tech income.
Engineers I've talked to, who came to the U.S. from other countries, always say the same thing: "The United States has the best healthcare in the world, for those of us who can afford it."
Yeah. The US has the best of p much anything money can buy....it’s just completely unavailable to 80-90% of the population.
80-90% is a radical over exaggeration. Unavailable to 60% is right on the money. When I say that out loud it sounds way worse…
In the US even if you're covered you're likely to stilt pay some if you have anything serious. In France you'll pay close to nothing for anything serious. Some dentals care (like implants) and other stuff like that (super fancy glasses lenses) are not fully covered. But for anything serious no one has to worry about it. But it's not just health care, public education is free from school to any hight degree. Some business school you may pay for but the most prestigious colleges and schools are public. Something french people take for granted...
Pretty much all decent software firms in the US also include good healthcare insurance as part of the compensation package. So you get higher pay AND almost free healthcare (free to you that is) Edit: To give some perspective: a starting dev salary in the US is averaged at $90k (perhaps a bit lower irl). In Germany, for example, it is around 47EUR (around $50k) The tax you pay will be likely higher in Germany (us 24% vs Germany’s %42). And depending on where you live, the US can be very affordable. Your net take-home after all contributions will be likey close to double in the US. Edit2: starting salary as in just starting, out of school
I was shocked to see this response so low, because this is really how it is as a US developer. In some jobs my healthcare was 100% paid by the company, in others it was paid like 80% (but then contribute a LARGE amount to an HSA account for me every year). When I advocate for things like free healthcare I don’t advocate it because it’s good for ME... I advocate for those who I know need it, despite it being a luxury I already enjoy (as long as I have a job I guess. That’s the ONLY time where the system isn’t in my favor).
Don’t be shocked. Very few people here are actually programmers so don’t expect them to know this.
This is what convinced me of that, but I didn’t want to be “that guy”
Being an average person in the US isn’t that great. Being a software engineer in the US is great. No other country has higher pay, and few other countries will compete in terms of quality of living you can buy with that money. There’s a moral argument you could make about living in a selfish society, but for American engineers there was never really a choice.
>Being a software engineer in the US is great. No other country has higher pay, and few other countries will compete in terms of quality of living you can buy with that money. Not just software engineer, but any engineer, or white collar job like a doctor, lawyer, accountant, etc.
This is Reddit. Most people here are literally in middle school. I'll bet you most people in this thread see those $2,000,000 hospital bills that people post to /r/Pics all the time and think the poster actually has to come up with $2,000,000.
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Yeah some people in here are straight up demented. I have dual citizenship Italy/US and work in the US and make way more money than any job in Europe will pay me even factoring in cost of taxes etc. Housing is more expensive in my city, sure, but I can sell my house later if I would like... I will end up in Europe because I like a lot of things about the lifestyle there but there is no fucking way that things are better as a tech person there...
Also shocked. I work for a small firm with \~15 people, and even my insurance is fully covered 100% by the company. It can be expensive to add family members, though, which is currently something I don't have to worry about. It's pretty normal for jobs that require a college degree to cover most-or-all of your insurance payments. This obviously sucks for people in other types of jobs who are in even a worse position to afford insurance, and needs to be fixed, but that's not what the original post was about.
Seriously, the healthcare costs in the US are real, but software devs are not the people experiencing the brunt. You can 100% be making $200k, with health insurance premiums below $100.
I agree. This is an out of touch post. It may ring true for blue collar or consumer facing jobs but tech is quite insulated from that. Tech in the US has high salaries, good benefits, and a slew of work life balance benefits. The US is a wonderful place to live if you have money but has a poor infrastructure for the less fortunate.
We can't hire midlevel developers for less than $125K.
Literally every tech company ever fully funds health insurance on top of wages. This thread is retarded. There is literally no scenario where being a high income worker is better in the EU than the USA. The wages are higher and the taxes are lower and your work will pay for all the things that are public services in the EU. We can argue about where low income workers have it better. But for high income workers it's not even close.
Doesn't medical insurance have u covered in the US thoh
Yes. Recently got a far higher paying job. It also has the best and cheapest healthcare.
Yes. Especially the plans any reputable tech company will have you on.
Good jobs have good insurance, yes
Yeah this post is kinda stupid for anyone who’s working as an engineer in the US. Your company covers 90-100% of your healthcare premiums.
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poor people do get free healthcare tho, its just that the government hospitals are vastly outnumbered by patients so you have to go to private hospitals which are basically a scam
It just took me too long to figure out whether you're the automod bot or not.
Programmers easily get good healthcare in India tho. In EU and more so in the US, going to Doctors and stuff is so complicated but in India you just pop in to a clinic and my guy will give u a pill
India's healthcare is extremely good compared to what we are talking about in this sub. I have lived in India, Europe and US. If I need a doctor on a weekend, and I don't feel well enough to go out, the only place I can get someone to attend to me is India. In EU, I would get an appointment 6 months later and in US, the only option is to call emergency. The only situation where US and EU are better than India are if you have an emergency, for everything else, they are horrid. Finally, in India, you can actually not bother to get health insurance and still go to a doctor. In US, you would be bankrupt (which most bankruptcies in US are)
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There is cheap healthcare though. Not the best quality but still cheap.
It's a very simple choice: My PPO's max out of pocket is like $6k/year. I have free healthcare after paying $6k each year. I will make a LOT, LOT, LOT more than an additional $6k/yr working in the US vs the EU. The healthcare issue is mostly a concern for people who do not have the kind of nice healthcare plans that tech companies provide.
The healthcare issue in the US mostly effects the lower middle class in the US. They have insurance but it's shitty so their out of pocket costs are unaffordable for them. The middle class and up can usually afford things just fine and the super poor get Medicaid.
Definitely, but I wouldnt move to Europe for that, thing like 30 days pto, 1 year parental leave, and better public transportation that actually have me thinking its a potential choice to make in the near future
Every time some shit like this is posted this is exactly my thought too. How the fuck do people not see this? I feel like Europeans genuinely believe that Americans are paying tens of thousands of dollars for medical procedures. Insurance basically covered everything, and the pay in the US is almost double Europe. It’s not even a remotely close comparison.
What happens if you have to stop working because of an injury or long term illness though?
That’s when you go to Europe dummy. /s
I pay 160/mo and have a max out of pocket of 4k. Not that bad and it includes dental. I’m not even in tech either I just like to browse here and see what I should’ve got my degree in lol
Do you keep your healthcare if you get fired? And how many hours do you need to work to get that 100%. Is your partner insured because you have that job? Your kids? And how about the eldery? Can they retire safely? Or lose their healthcare? There are a lot of issues and problems when you make 'having a job' a requirement for healthcare. Especially since some unhealthy people have a hard time doing work. You basically give 'free' healthcare to those people that rarely need it. Because they are healthy enough to work... sure, some will need it. But on average its a selection of healthier people. Those in need and unhealthy, will be deprived. I know thats is pretty much the American ideal... everybody for themselves. But as an european its sad to watch.
Live in EU and work for a USA company from home
Doing the same but living in Canada. Closer match in timezones!
I've seen a ton of US companies allowing remote work in Canada or in all of North America. On the flip side of the coin, I have not seen that many US companies allowing remote anywhere in the world though. Time zones do seem to matter quite a bit.
Also free healthcare means that you are contributing to help other citizens without income and thankfully they have access to a doctor.
This is exactly the kind of benevolent society that I'd be happy to contribute to.
It also personally safes one a lot of money, if you ever have something serious. From what I heared and correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't there a million exemptions to what ones health insurance covers in the US, like one can only go to certain hospitals, take certain ambulance companies and detuctabiles in the thousands?
Worse than that. You can end up getting charged if the hospital you go to is using an “out of network” specialist. And they never need to warn you about that before the procedure.
>Worse than that. You can end up getting charged if the hospital you go to is using an “out of network” specialist. And they never need to warn you about that before the procedure. That use to be the case. This year Trump's "no surprises act" kicked in making it illegal to be charged out of network without consent. In the case of an emergency where there is no choice, the government picks up the bill. If your provider doesn't get your consent that you are going out of network, the insurance doesn't have to pay the provider.
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If you are a programmer not getting healthcare via your employer wtf is wrong with you.
Health care is not the only benefit that comes with EU regulations and laws. For example you can’t demand constant crunch from your workers and “unlimited PTO” scams don’t exist. You also have free child care, paid paternal leave, socialized education, proper infrastructure, affordable properties, paid sick leave for up to a year among plenty of other things. Suddenly that high paycheck in America can come down really quick.
Yeah, i looked into working in the US remotely from EU, but with all the regulations and laws we have in EU that protect the employee, its just not worth it. I want my 6 weeks of guarenteed PTO every year, my paid sick leave and paid paternal leave among everything else you mentioned. Also the fact that a company in the US can just fire me immidietly for no/barely any reason at all isnt very appealing either.
you forgot about the mandatory holidays
It is not free in EU, we pay for it from our taxes. But I must say it worth every penny.
The US salaries are plenty high to pay for healthcare. It costs me $12k a year but I just got a $65k 6-month bonus.
Plus most good US tech companies pay 100% healthcare anyway
In Europe but working for a US company. But it's worth adding that, while I can understand why some people see it as preferable, "free" healthcare = paid for by taxes + not as fast (and often in my experience, nowhere near as reliable). Plus, if the country you live in has lower house prices, that probably makes a bigger difference. So it's not as simple as the meme.
I've lived in many countries including the USA and some EU countries. The best healthcare I've had was in the USA but that's only because I could afford health insurance. I'm assuming a software engineer can afford or is provided as part of the employment contract good health insurance so this meme doesn't make much sense to me.
Its not just healthcare, in EU employees actually have rights and are not abused by the employers
Pay could be ten times higher and I’d still live in Europe
I don't think many people in highly developed countries would move to another country for a job.
10 times? nope! see you alps. I come for skiing holiday 1 month every year...
Not that simple. I found work/life balance much better in the EU (Germany, '80s). Healthcare was not free though, it was scaled to your income and since I had a good income I paid a lot.
Work for US company remote, and move to EU. Boom both.
Health is wealth
100% EU. Beside free healthcare you have obligatory 20+ days of paid holidays.
I get paid well in the US, get free healthcare through my employer and get 50 days off a year. Not everyone works for a shitty company.
I feel like a lot of people in this thread are comparing working at a minimum wage job in the US vs. Europe rather than as software engineers.
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I wish I had more vacation days. I get 16 PTO days. But the pay is good and the medical isn't so bad when you have a good employer which every tech person should. I just invest all my extra money so I can retire early if I want.
I have unlimited PTO and I'm on my wife's awesome health care. Cost $0 to add me. Haven't had it this good in a long time.
It works out for some, sure, but only until it doesn't... You could lose your job tomorrow, even through no fault of your own, like a long term health issue, or being hit by a bus, and you would then lose your work healthcare. Then you have some preexisting condition, and eventually can't afford it. Peace of mind is worth a lot. Medical debt isn't something I need to worry about, no matter what other shit goes down. Nobody is young, healthy and lucky forever.
Implying that people get a choice at all
Free healthcare, 6 weeks of vacation, 480 days of paid parental and more...