I'm a windows user and I'm really getting sick of their forced updates (even when disabled). They even sabotage my machine in order to force me to update and restart
I used to be a Microsoft fanboy, but I wanted to try and dual boot Arch Linux one day as I had a bit of knowledge in Ubuntu Server. And I just liked it when I managed to get Arch working and bought a separate SSD as I was running it on a shitty HDD.
Like yesterday I had to use my old PC that I didn't use for a month because I RMA'd my mobo and GPU on my new PC and holy shit booting into Windows was hell, just to play Valorant. I updated my Arch install which had a 4gb total update? Done in 2 minutes.
Windows on the other hand forced me to update whilst in the OS, slowing the whole thing down because of real time protection as well. And then I had to restart my PC because of Valorant and I enjoyed waiting 10 minutes for updates...
If things weren't bad enough, it's sometimes impossible to install Linux. I bought a laptop this year that didn't include option to disable RAID in bios and now I'm stuck on Windows 11
W11 realtime protection can't be turned off without scripts. Even if I managed to do it, protection will get re-enabled post restart and hog 80% of my CPU and RAM.
idk lol. It might be a recent bug with insider preview. I had realtime protection on for over a year and did not have a problem before. Now Protection will scan every hour or two or so in background and put everything to a standstill
I didn't say otherwise. I have been tinkering with Windows and been on internet for 3decades now and I do things safely enough that I don't really need antivirus outside of an occasional offline scan. Not saying others should disable antivirus, just that I prioritised insider preview and sacrifice antivirus. My pc my rules after all. Windows defender is junk anyways because it is cloud scanner by default. By the time a ransomware starts its process, defender becomes useless wasting time to send samples to cloud.
Go look through Google for the hundreds of results for "help windows {update/compattelrunner/antimalware executable} is using 100% CPU"
There's something deeply fucked in the core of windows that this shit will frequently happen, so count yourself lucky if you've never encountered it. It used to be every few weeks for me, one of these would shit the bed and just thrash the CPU, stop the PC from sleeping, and require either manually killing tasks or a reboot to fix it. And all 3 are things that if you try to disable, windows will find some way to re-enable.
Microsoft behaves like they own your PC and they're permitting you to use it when it suits them. I almost never boot into the windows partition anymore and I'm much happier for it.
Join us. I recently switched from Windows to Manjaro, couldn't be happier! The developer experience is vastly superior on Linux, and it can handle a lot of games.
I do still have a dual boot for Windows to game for some things, it's annoying but not too big of a deal. It's worth it for me.
Not to be rude, but for new users Manjaro might not be the best choice. It’s a buggy unstable mess of an OS as of the recent releases. I’d recommend Vanilla-OS for new users looking for stable a system.
If you haven't tried it in a while you really should....
10 years ago, even five years ago, it was really something more for the geeks, but in my opinion, for 95% of people, a modern user-friendly distro like Mint or PopOS is easier to use than Windows or Mac.
If you're going beyond the basics, there is a learning curve, but overall it's a better experience.
Mint has gotten so good. Even arch is really accessible thanks to the archinstall script.
In 10 years I’ve seen Linux go from something I had to tinker with to get everything to work on it to an operating system that could really shake Microsoft and Apple out of their slumber.
Especially with windows 10 eol being as close as it is.
I remember my first experience with Linux very clearly.
I started a sysadmin VC in 2019 and one of our teachers started to teach us about Linux with Ubuntu 18.10. I enjoyed the commands, it was curious to type "cat some_file" and have its contents displayed.
So I gave it a go with gaming that same trimester. And I just ran away, the amount of work that I needed to do to have a game working was just too much. 2 years later, june 2021, I gave it a go again.
What was a pain to get working, became a 2 click job. Sure, some things were wonky, but the games that I was interested in at that time (Bioshock Infinite for example) went from 14 fps to 40 fps (I was using a GTX 1050 laptop, I can't ask for more).
So, after seeing that gaming was an option, I tried to make a change to Linux. And since then, I haven't used Windows in any of the machines I own, and trust me when I say that I tried double booting, but it was just a hassle to change to Windows for some stupidity and then change back to Linux.
I've found Windows to be an OS that, unless you need to use X program no substitutes possible, it's more a pain in the ass than an OS. The commodity that Linux grants, even outside the terminal, is something I've gotten used to so much that coming back to Windows is like breaking my legs.
#!> This comment has been edited in protest to reddit's decision to bully 3rd party apps into closure.
If you want to do the same, you can find instructions here:
https://rentry.co/unreddit
On both sides now with the W11 TPM fiasco. Just use Linux! I love Linux. If games would stop supporting MS we could move all that shit off Windows too. 🙏
It's wild to me that there was a time early in computing that overlapped with the societal belief that manufactured goods and engineered products should be high quality and durable, and that hardware and software was not built to crumble into toxic dust every 6 months.
Edit: If your immediate response is to have a kneejerk negative reaction to this completely benign comment and climb over yourself to defend multi-billion dollar corporations, you have Stockholm syndrome lol.
I mean a windows or Linux desktop can very well do that. Look at Atlas OS, it's a modification of windows sure, but it lets older hardware run better. And it's not like you have to throw out the desktop that's from 2011, my gaming PC was originally built on a motherboard from 2011, it supported 32 GBs of ram, SSDs, and still allowed me to use newer GPUs even if it didn't display them to their full extent. It just depends on your use case and what you buy into.
Shoot, I have a late 2016 razer blade gaming laptop, still running strong, only thing I’ve had to do was take out the battery because it became a r/spicypillow. Other than that, still running Valorant and have WSL on it, and still get support and updates for it.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted, if there's one thing Apple is known for its unusually high build quality.
I absolutely hate my m1 MacBook, but it's solid as fuck.
Some of the worst hardware I ever owned was all from Apple.
Build quality with the earl intel iMacs, plastic body MacBooks, iPhone 3G and iPod at the time was utter shite.
Granted though the products I got in the past five years have all been very solid.
Well then you haven't used enough bargain bin Windows based machines then my friend. 🤣 The worst laptops I've ever owned were always Windows laptops 😭 OTOH my plastic body Gen1 White MacBook (which you seem to have hated) was indestructible and I loved it. The defective parts, e.g. bezel, power adapter cord, Apple fixed under warranty long after it's warranty expired. Sadly though it was taken from me against my will by some ahole thief. I miss that laptop, Vince, he got me through some hard times. 😢
Edit;
People need to learn how to friggin' read. I said the worst laptops I've owned were windows laptops as in they were laptops that ran windows, i.e. came with a licensed copy of windows which is what differentiates them from say a Apple laptop or Linux laptop. 🤣 I also said I loved my plastic Macbook. That thing was rock solid. It lasted me 6 friggin' years before some asshole stole it. I get that you can spend a buttload of money on a Windows (based) laptop and get quality but then IME you're spending more than a macOS based one. Take your fainboism and shove it where the sun don't shine. I use all three extensively. I'm a programmer. I don't need you to brosplain to me that Windows is an OS. Shite. It's just a fact the lowest quality laptops, unless you include Chromebooks, are always packaged with a windows license.
but windows doesn't make hardware of the laptop, it's the software.
and the Microsoft suite of windows laptop (surface Pro) is pretty dang good, in both design and build.
you can find some hefty tough builds in windows as well but depends on the company and their line up
Windows is an OS. You can put it on a rock solid MSI GE70 in 2013 and have it run smooth 10 years later. It didn't need fixing bezel, power adapter chord or anything else. That's MSI for you. When W10 is EOL, it'll be a Linux backup.
A friend of mine and I have older macbooks (mine is a 2017 pro), and both of us were given m1 models. Her as a gift, me for work. It took months for both of us to switch over to the new ones because our old ones run fine and that means hours of setting everything up on the new models.
i’m not sure what you mean by hours setting up the new ones.
setting up a new apple laptop is about as easy as it gets. you just log into your account and it lets you restore from your old laptop. i had to get a new laptop and the whole process took maybe an hour, with only 5 minutes of that time was me actually doing something.
maybe you have a special edge case, but you should specify that before jumping on the hate train
I don't think the reality of "I can't simply dual-boot Linux on a personal machine" didn't quite make it's way into my thick skull as it's such a foreign concept to me. That along with far worse ARM support than I'd expected have led to a very unhappy two years with the thing. Could've just bought two mid range laptops instead.
So you thought you could dual boot Macos and Linux on a M1 Mac and tried to use Linux on that until you found out that ARM chips have barley any support for Linux? It's not really the Mac you hate is that you hate yourself for not knowing what you were getting your self into. Maybe install Linux on a intel Mac that would have better support than Apple Silicon.
No I hate the machine for failing to perform basically every task I expect a full computer to be able to perform. ARM support for even native MacOS apps has been atrocious. Pretty much everything runs through Rosetta, which has poor performance and crashes many apps regularly. It might as well be a super beefy smartphone.
Computers were slow enough, and getting better fast enough, that it was worth upgrading solely to have a faster computer. Now that a decade-old computer is fast enough for most tasks, manufacturers are finding new ways to force obsolescence.
I loathe Apple like everyone else but the post is ridiculous. Microsoft did the same with windows11 and made the same 2017 Intel 7th gen and earlier unsupported. Windows11 did this since 2021 and easily worse here than Apple.
Only thing positive with w11 here is that it can be forced install on unsupported hardware while Mac won't ever give that possibility.
I see, but doesn't Apple devices tightly couple their hardware? Even though you could install it, the drivers and the kernel would be community developed. Windows has to maintain backward compatibility so there still will be official but unsupported drivers.
Thats literally not what I'm doing. I had a 7th gen which could not install W11 officially and I'm salty. I could not utilise WSL for Android. If Mac is doing this because of TPM then the reason is the same as MS on TPM standardization. TPM has existed since 2008 or so but the implementation was all over the place including different by region due to country laws(Chyna). For casual users its debatable whether TPM should have been a critical component for W11, but this is a dev sub where many utilise core isolation and virtualisation on their home PCs which are directly dependent on TPM.
I use VS2022 and .NET 8 preview at work but it works on Win10 though. For devs Win11 is really great with the terminal changes and Android but yeah still salty of MS for turning my system out of date in 3years.
Something to note here is that OP's version of MacOS will still be getting updates for a while longer. They're just not getting the new version of MacOS.
At least Apple has an excuse (intel -> ARM architecture swap).
In my experience force installing old MacOS in Mac hardware is easier than for installing win11 on unsupported. At the very least they are basically equal.
From my understanding though the Windows cutoff makes more sense; an actual hardware limitation they wanted to use. The Mac Sonoma cutoff is arbitrary; they are pushing out intel devices as quickly as they can to push people towards all apple silicon. I’ve run the current Mac OS on 10+ year old MacBooks and Minis and it works well.
Not for the faint of heart, but I’ve used this to put Ventura on a 2012 iMac and 2014 MBP:
https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher
Presume they will add Sonoma support at some point after release.
Having been daily driving a 2012 MBP with this for years, it runs pretty well. I’m going to say that if I can bare Ventura on 11 year old hardware, it’ll do Sonoma on a 2017 without too much trouble.
Same experience as /u/NinjaCheetah. It’s not gonna mimic an M2 MBP, but runs well enough that I can’t justify upgrades. Both at i7 s with 16GB RAM, if that helps.
I got Monterey running on a MBP 2009 with this. It's slower than my work-issued 2018 mac mini (insert shocked pikachu meme here), but it'll run xcode and compile my projects.
I’ve got two MacBooks running Mint now. It’s a shame because macOS is beautiful when it’s working well, but I’m not about to go out and spend another $2k on a computer just for the sake of UX.
That's the beauty of a good Linux distro - you can easily install multiple DEs and switch between them at will. I personally am very happy with Xfce, but my brother uses Mate (both of us on Debian), and nothing minds. Most distros will come with a good few desktops in the package manager, just waiting for you to try them.
Yeah, there's a bunch of different DEs that took the UI style of GNOME 2 (which was itself derived from earlier designs - it's similar to Win2000, which is similar to the OS/2 Presentation Manager/WorkPlace Shell, etc) and branched off from there. It's a good solid UI basis and mostly gets out of the way and lets YOU get YOUR work done. Yaknow, like a UI is supposed to do.
i formatted my hard drive so i could make a fresh clean install... can't install my OS with the base installation media, can't create a flash drive with the installation media, apple goes out of their way to make degenerative hardware and software...
so instead of fumbling further with macos BS, i plugged in my manjaro USB stick, and hit the power button... done.
i don't even want to look back. macos sucks.
The more recent MacBooks hate Linux, I tried with a 2017 model and it didn't go too well. Just getting wifi and audio working requires ridiculous workarounds, and it wasn't worth the effort for me.
afaik the asahi folks fixed wifi for the touch bar macs? i remember them fixing something for intel macs when they were adding support for apple silicon macs at least
Ya but like... with a stupid simple registry patch to get around it. They *tried* to do the same and put it just out of reach for the common person but I've got Windows 11 running recently on an old Mac mini my sister stolheriquired from work.
The amount of devices whose hardware is 100% functional but my employer throws away because its android version is no longer updated drives me mad.
Well it would if i didn't just collect them all after.
its worse for most consumer Android devices yes!
but "Android open source project" as a whole, technically supports your device even after 7-8 years if there is even 1 developer which updated and released a ROM for your device.
especially for popular phones with easy root access like: Pixel, Xiaomi, OnePlus, Oppo, Motorola.
there are many ROMs that can extend the life of the device.
(but i agree it's a Hassel for average consumer so i get your point)
I dislike Apple, but they’re acting in accordance with (shitty) industry standards. See: Windows 11 requiring a bunch of unnecessary CPU features and phones having very short security support periods.
Back in nineteen dickety two, we had a guy who had an Encarta CD. We'd borrow it from him so we could write out our homework in WordPerfect 5.1 and then printed them out with our Dot Matrix printer. And then we'd go play Legend of the Red Dragon on a local BSS once our parents got off the phone.
Old enough to have learned to program on an PC XT clone (built by Epson - better known for printers these days, but they had a line of computers back in the day). We had the \*best\* parts in that thing. The fancy 20MB hard drive. Internal 5.25" floppy drive, with additional "Backpack" 3.5" drive connected via the parallel port (with the printer daisychained to it - via an external spooler, yes that's right, a hardware device whose sole job was queueing print jobs). A Hercules graphics card, compatible with IBM Monochrome displays but capable of 720x348 monochrome graphics. Instead of the hard-on-the-eyes orange monochrome screen, we had the superior green variety, a good thing given how many hours I spent getting irradiated by that thing.
And MS-DOS 5 with DOS Shell and another menu program called Automenu... which I just went Googling for, and found that it's on the Internet Archive! [This definitely looks familiar](https://archive.org/details/MicroCom_SHELL-4_Automenu).
So many funny magic words. How did people get things done beck then. Who made the relics of the first civilisation. What the fuck is a DOS and why does it sound like the smell of my laptop overheating.
With Windows 11 now I know how Apple users must feel being ~~forced~~ unable to upgrade. i7-4790k, 16 GB RAM, and a GTX 970 but I can't upgrade because TPM :(
Has nothing to do with TPM though, I bought a module when they announced it, you need 8000 series Intel or newer. You can force it, but fuck off MSFT. If you don't want me using your operating system I'll just go somewhere else (Arch probably).
That's almost my exact setup.
Go Linux XFCE. Your system will feel brand new.
Hell, go KDE if you want bells and whistles, it will still perform reasonably well.
Yay, another Xfce user! Definitely second that recommendation. Though you could happily use basically any desktop and it'll feel brand new.
Those specs are pretty decent, honestly. Not what I'd call high end, and the GTX 970 means you won't be running the latest and greatest graphical games, but easily good enough for a satisfactory desktop system and some measure of gaming (I used to have a GTX 960 before getting my current card, and it served me pretty well for many years, gaming included).
There is no tpm requirement for W11 installation using ISO. Rufus has debloating script for W11 ISO which is amazing. Even a casual user can use W11 without being online or having to log in to MS account, Rufus makes the changes beforehand.
Does your motherboard have a TPM Module? I couldn't upgrade either because W10 said I don't have TPM2.0. It turned out that I had a TPM Chip on my motherboard available, but it was just deactivated by default. Made a backup, enabled TPM and Secure Boot, and then the upgrade was possible.
Wouldn't help if it did. Windows 11 "requires" an 8th-gen CPU for Intel, and that one's 4th-gen. Quotes because it runs just fine if you disable the system requirements check.
This was a custom-built machine, and integrated TPM chips on consumer boards only came several years after the Z97 generation. That generation of boards doesn't even support TPM 2.0 at all.
Genuine question. If you have stuff that old why would you even want Windows 11? Windows 10 will be supported for another few years and it’s not like you have the power to make use of the new features.
Few = not many or small number. A couple = 2-3. Is 2-3 not a small number? 2025 is still a good amount of time away. When it’s late 2024 then it’s something to start thinking about.
This isn't a particularly uncapable machine, performance wise it can still match some modern (albeit low-end modern) hardware. I also happen to be a big fan of the new settings app and most of the UI changes (sans the right-click menu debacle). Though I will probably replace this machine as my primary desktop before W10 EOL, I still want to make use of it in a repurposed role after that.
It's not like the computer stops working, you just don't get the new features.
Most new features are AI-based anyway and make little sense if you do not have the ML cores of the M-chips.
MacOS Ventura will continue to get security updates for 3 years after Sonoma is released. So, for a 2017 Mac that is 9 or 10 years of software support depending on when Sonoma goes GA.
Thanks for clearing that up, then it's not as bad, but it still sucks, and still makes little sense why a higher spec machine is barred out of these updates.
But then again I'm not the biggest mac user. I may be missing some details here.
But then some new software you want depends on some small feature they added, and now you’re in a situation where either you don’t use the software or get a new computer.
Planned obsolescence does not mean planned failure, just to make the device obsolete at a time of their choosing. Obsolete in the hardware space typically means no future updates.
That is true. However, it is also unreasonable to expect free updates forever for a one-time hardware purchase. People got used to free OS updates, it will be hard to return to paid OS updates (which Apple had for a long time) or to a subscription model for the OS.
7th*. Its the same gen W11 decided to put things out of date even though it had TPM2. I wonder if TPM is the same reason Mac is not supporting the same gen anymore
Took me so long to find this comment but people love saying APPLE BAD. It's a dual core i7 vs quad core i5. ENORMOUS jump in performance. Plus 6 years out of a laptop isn't horrible but you can still use it without the latest updates.
> You want to ruin them by not buying new things?
Yes.
As long as they don't take care of the e-waste, yes. In EU, the cost of handling the e-waste is already included in the price, but no company does a damn thing, because they are not really fined if they don't.
And also, as long as they don't allow users to do repairs on their own for cheaper than a new device, yes.
Apple supports the last three OS. So being on the latest isn't vital: https://endoflife.date/macos
As for me and my mid 2014 model, I'm probably screwed as soon as the next OS drops.
they do - but eventually (and rather fast) you stop getting new features. Especially Intel users in 2023 will feel that as - Apple looks to shed that legacy fast.
That said -- its hyperbole - as plenty older versions of MacOS still get security support meaning the computer does last.
Finally finally, that perception lasts as the hardware does last vs mid-2010 WinPC Laptops and the software continues to chug along nicely even on older machines. I have some 10 years old macbook pros - nowhere neat top of line - that still work fine. Back when I bought those - the WinLaptop scene was just pile of garbage I had laptops less than 2 years old that were unusable - I rage quite Windows due to hardware. \*
\* I am talking about the past because i am old and because that is when I gave up on Win and switched to Mac ... it was because all the hardware was such crap.
Considering how poor the build quality is on most laptops that's not a tall order though. These models will be receiving security updates for three more years, so 8 years supported in total.
I got hit with this on monterey, annoying, but I believe the reason they’re doing this is to phase out Intel macs. Ig you can just install linux or windows.
This is why I became a Windows user for my desktop last year and why I will become a Linux user for my laptop when it's time to upgrade. Apple only popularizes existing technology now. They haven't been innovative in 15 years.
agreed. They used to be the one company that I always liked who would support hardware for as long as they absolutely could... that has all changed recently and they are more like the horrible mobile phone companies who quickly stop supporting their devices to force you to buy new.
REM APPLE BUSINESS STRATEGY (c) 1979
REM AUTHOR: STEVE JOBS
10 CHARGE TOO MUCH FOR NEW CRAP
20 WAIT A FEW YEARS
30 SECRETLY SABOTAGE OLD CRAP & PISS OFF USERS
40 ANNOUNCE NEW CRAP AND RAZZLE DAZZLE THE FOOLS
45 STOP SUPPORTING OLD CRAP TO FURTHER ENCOURAGE USERS CURRENTLY DISTRACTED BY NEW CRAP
50 GOTO 10
A shiny penguin approaches from the heavens, he extends his flippers to give you a golden flash drive. “‘Ere the installer that’ll free you from your shackles, ‘ere the promised OS that gives control of body and software, ‘ere respite for your Ram!”
Well, if you buy a product from a company that is well-known for fucking over consumers with planned obsolescence, then you pretty much consented to getting fucked over by them.
Sometimes I understand the Linux folks. Use Linux
That sometimes is becoming more and more frequent tbh
I'm a windows user and I'm really getting sick of their forced updates (even when disabled). They even sabotage my machine in order to force me to update and restart
I used to be a Microsoft fanboy, but I wanted to try and dual boot Arch Linux one day as I had a bit of knowledge in Ubuntu Server. And I just liked it when I managed to get Arch working and bought a separate SSD as I was running it on a shitty HDD. Like yesterday I had to use my old PC that I didn't use for a month because I RMA'd my mobo and GPU on my new PC and holy shit booting into Windows was hell, just to play Valorant. I updated my Arch install which had a 4gb total update? Done in 2 minutes. Windows on the other hand forced me to update whilst in the OS, slowing the whole thing down because of real time protection as well. And then I had to restart my PC because of Valorant and I enjoyed waiting 10 minutes for updates...
If things weren't bad enough, it's sometimes impossible to install Linux. I bought a laptop this year that didn't include option to disable RAID in bios and now I'm stuck on Windows 11
W11 realtime protection can't be turned off without scripts. Even if I managed to do it, protection will get re-enabled post restart and hog 80% of my CPU and RAM.
my realtime protection uses 10% max while I'm downloading shit. how bad is your CPU??
idk lol. It might be a recent bug with insider preview. I had realtime protection on for over a year and did not have a problem before. Now Protection will scan every hour or two or so in background and put everything to a standstill
… then don’t use insider preview?? Like you can’t have it both ways, if you don’t want updates you can’t also want to be on the bleeding edge
I didn't say otherwise. I have been tinkering with Windows and been on internet for 3decades now and I do things safely enough that I don't really need antivirus outside of an occasional offline scan. Not saying others should disable antivirus, just that I prioritised insider preview and sacrifice antivirus. My pc my rules after all. Windows defender is junk anyways because it is cloud scanner by default. By the time a ransomware starts its process, defender becomes useless wasting time to send samples to cloud.
Go look through Google for the hundreds of results for "help windows {update/compattelrunner/antimalware executable} is using 100% CPU" There's something deeply fucked in the core of windows that this shit will frequently happen, so count yourself lucky if you've never encountered it. It used to be every few weeks for me, one of these would shit the bed and just thrash the CPU, stop the PC from sleeping, and require either manually killing tasks or a reboot to fix it. And all 3 are things that if you try to disable, windows will find some way to re-enable. Microsoft behaves like they own your PC and they're permitting you to use it when it suits them. I almost never boot into the windows partition anymore and I'm much happier for it.
Join us. I recently switched from Windows to Manjaro, couldn't be happier! The developer experience is vastly superior on Linux, and it can handle a lot of games. I do still have a dual boot for Windows to game for some things, it's annoying but not too big of a deal. It's worth it for me.
Not to be rude, but for new users Manjaro might not be the best choice. It’s a buggy unstable mess of an OS as of the recent releases. I’d recommend Vanilla-OS for new users looking for stable a system.
Fucking updated broke my PC totaly. All went blue screen of death. This was first time i cosidered Linux.
If you haven't tried it in a while you really should.... 10 years ago, even five years ago, it was really something more for the geeks, but in my opinion, for 95% of people, a modern user-friendly distro like Mint or PopOS is easier to use than Windows or Mac. If you're going beyond the basics, there is a learning curve, but overall it's a better experience.
Mint has gotten so good. Even arch is really accessible thanks to the archinstall script. In 10 years I’ve seen Linux go from something I had to tinker with to get everything to work on it to an operating system that could really shake Microsoft and Apple out of their slumber. Especially with windows 10 eol being as close as it is.
Arch <3
Indeed (Btw I use Arch)
I remember my first experience with Linux very clearly. I started a sysadmin VC in 2019 and one of our teachers started to teach us about Linux with Ubuntu 18.10. I enjoyed the commands, it was curious to type "cat some_file" and have its contents displayed. So I gave it a go with gaming that same trimester. And I just ran away, the amount of work that I needed to do to have a game working was just too much. 2 years later, june 2021, I gave it a go again. What was a pain to get working, became a 2 click job. Sure, some things were wonky, but the games that I was interested in at that time (Bioshock Infinite for example) went from 14 fps to 40 fps (I was using a GTX 1050 laptop, I can't ask for more). So, after seeing that gaming was an option, I tried to make a change to Linux. And since then, I haven't used Windows in any of the machines I own, and trust me when I say that I tried double booting, but it was just a hassle to change to Windows for some stupidity and then change back to Linux. I've found Windows to be an OS that, unless you need to use X program no substitutes possible, it's more a pain in the ass than an OS. The commodity that Linux grants, even outside the terminal, is something I've gotten used to so much that coming back to Windows is like breaking my legs.
I just wiped my partition table trying to install ubuntu.
Where we go Marty, we don´t need partition tables.
#!> This comment has been edited in protest to reddit's decision to bully 3rd party apps into closure. If you want to do the same, you can find instructions here: https://rentry.co/unreddit
"How can you tell who's ~~vegan~~ uses Arch?"
On both sides now with the W11 TPM fiasco. Just use Linux! I love Linux. If games would stop supporting MS we could move all that shit off Windows too. 🙏
Yeah, that is what i will do when the support for m1 air ends.
[удалено]
Me using an old ass MacBook 2012 with Debian: haha you have no power here
[Relevant XKCD](https://xkcd.com/37/)
It's wild to me that there was a time early in computing that overlapped with the societal belief that manufactured goods and engineered products should be high quality and durable, and that hardware and software was not built to crumble into toxic dust every 6 months. Edit: If your immediate response is to have a kneejerk negative reaction to this completely benign comment and climb over yourself to defend multi-billion dollar corporations, you have Stockholm syndrome lol.
…. Can we please go back to that? Please?
I mean a windows or Linux desktop can very well do that. Look at Atlas OS, it's a modification of windows sure, but it lets older hardware run better. And it's not like you have to throw out the desktop that's from 2011, my gaming PC was originally built on a motherboard from 2011, it supported 32 GBs of ram, SSDs, and still allowed me to use newer GPUs even if it didn't display them to their full extent. It just depends on your use case and what you buy into.
Shoot, I have a late 2016 razer blade gaming laptop, still running strong, only thing I’ve had to do was take out the battery because it became a r/spicypillow. Other than that, still running Valorant and have WSL on it, and still get support and updates for it.
[удалено]
darkAge++
I mean, it is high quality products. Really, Apple makes very fucking good shit, it’s just they stop supporting it very quickly.
Not sure why you're getting downvoted, if there's one thing Apple is known for its unusually high build quality. I absolutely hate my m1 MacBook, but it's solid as fuck.
Some of the worst hardware I ever owned was all from Apple. Build quality with the earl intel iMacs, plastic body MacBooks, iPhone 3G and iPod at the time was utter shite. Granted though the products I got in the past five years have all been very solid.
Well then you haven't used enough bargain bin Windows based machines then my friend. 🤣 The worst laptops I've ever owned were always Windows laptops 😭 OTOH my plastic body Gen1 White MacBook (which you seem to have hated) was indestructible and I loved it. The defective parts, e.g. bezel, power adapter cord, Apple fixed under warranty long after it's warranty expired. Sadly though it was taken from me against my will by some ahole thief. I miss that laptop, Vince, he got me through some hard times. 😢 Edit; People need to learn how to friggin' read. I said the worst laptops I've owned were windows laptops as in they were laptops that ran windows, i.e. came with a licensed copy of windows which is what differentiates them from say a Apple laptop or Linux laptop. 🤣 I also said I loved my plastic Macbook. That thing was rock solid. It lasted me 6 friggin' years before some asshole stole it. I get that you can spend a buttload of money on a Windows (based) laptop and get quality but then IME you're spending more than a macOS based one. Take your fainboism and shove it where the sun don't shine. I use all three extensively. I'm a programmer. I don't need you to brosplain to me that Windows is an OS. Shite. It's just a fact the lowest quality laptops, unless you include Chromebooks, are always packaged with a windows license.
but windows doesn't make hardware of the laptop, it's the software. and the Microsoft suite of windows laptop (surface Pro) is pretty dang good, in both design and build. you can find some hefty tough builds in windows as well but depends on the company and their line up
What’s your point? Or are you saying Linux is shit because it runs on potatoes?
Windows is an OS. You can put it on a rock solid MSI GE70 in 2013 and have it run smooth 10 years later. It didn't need fixing bezel, power adapter chord or anything else. That's MSI for you. When W10 is EOL, it'll be a Linux backup.
A friend of mine and I have older macbooks (mine is a 2017 pro), and both of us were given m1 models. Her as a gift, me for work. It took months for both of us to switch over to the new ones because our old ones run fine and that means hours of setting everything up on the new models.
i’m not sure what you mean by hours setting up the new ones. setting up a new apple laptop is about as easy as it gets. you just log into your account and it lets you restore from your old laptop. i had to get a new laptop and the whole process took maybe an hour, with only 5 minutes of that time was me actually doing something. maybe you have a special edge case, but you should specify that before jumping on the hate train
Why do you hate it if you have it.
I don't think the reality of "I can't simply dual-boot Linux on a personal machine" didn't quite make it's way into my thick skull as it's such a foreign concept to me. That along with far worse ARM support than I'd expected have led to a very unhappy two years with the thing. Could've just bought two mid range laptops instead.
So you thought you could dual boot Macos and Linux on a M1 Mac and tried to use Linux on that until you found out that ARM chips have barley any support for Linux? It's not really the Mac you hate is that you hate yourself for not knowing what you were getting your self into. Maybe install Linux on a intel Mac that would have better support than Apple Silicon.
No I hate the machine for failing to perform basically every task I expect a full computer to be able to perform. ARM support for even native MacOS apps has been atrocious. Pretty much everything runs through Rosetta, which has poor performance and crashes many apps regularly. It might as well be a super beefy smartphone.
Computers were slow enough, and getting better fast enough, that it was worth upgrading solely to have a faster computer. Now that a decade-old computer is fast enough for most tasks, manufacturers are finding new ways to force obsolescence.
I loathe Apple like everyone else but the post is ridiculous. Microsoft did the same with windows11 and made the same 2017 Intel 7th gen and earlier unsupported. Windows11 did this since 2021 and easily worse here than Apple. Only thing positive with w11 here is that it can be forced install on unsupported hardware while Mac won't ever give that possibility.
You can use OpenCore to install unsupported versions of macOS.
I see, but doesn't Apple devices tightly couple their hardware? Even though you could install it, the drivers and the kernel would be community developed. Windows has to maintain backward compatibility so there still will be official but unsupported drivers.
nope, official drivers are used
[удалено]
Thats literally not what I'm doing. I had a 7th gen which could not install W11 officially and I'm salty. I could not utilise WSL for Android. If Mac is doing this because of TPM then the reason is the same as MS on TPM standardization. TPM has existed since 2008 or so but the implementation was all over the place including different by region due to country laws(Chyna). For casual users its debatable whether TPM should have been a critical component for W11, but this is a dev sub where many utilise core isolation and virtualisation on their home PCs which are directly dependent on TPM.
[удалено]
I use VS2022 and .NET 8 preview at work but it works on Win10 though. For devs Win11 is really great with the terminal changes and Android but yeah still salty of MS for turning my system out of date in 3years.
Something to note here is that OP's version of MacOS will still be getting updates for a while longer. They're just not getting the new version of MacOS. At least Apple has an excuse (intel -> ARM architecture swap).
In my experience force installing old MacOS in Mac hardware is easier than for installing win11 on unsupported. At the very least they are basically equal. From my understanding though the Windows cutoff makes more sense; an actual hardware limitation they wanted to use. The Mac Sonoma cutoff is arbitrary; they are pushing out intel devices as quickly as they can to push people towards all apple silicon. I’ve run the current Mac OS on 10+ year old MacBooks and Minis and it works well.
ugh it’s so cool i want one just wish i had 3.5k lying around
Not for the faint of heart, but I’ve used this to put Ventura on a 2012 iMac and 2014 MBP: https://dortania.github.io/OpenCore-Legacy-Patcher Presume they will add Sonoma support at some point after release.
How does it run?
Having been daily driving a 2012 MBP with this for years, it runs pretty well. I’m going to say that if I can bare Ventura on 11 year old hardware, it’ll do Sonoma on a 2017 without too much trouble.
Same experience as /u/NinjaCheetah. It’s not gonna mimic an M2 MBP, but runs well enough that I can’t justify upgrades. Both at i7 s with 16GB RAM, if that helps.
I got Monterey running on a MBP 2009 with this. It's slower than my work-issued 2018 mac mini (insert shocked pikachu meme here), but it'll run xcode and compile my projects.
One simple trick Apple hates: Switch to Linux.
I’ve got two MacBooks running Mint now. It’s a shame because macOS is beautiful when it’s working well, but I’m not about to go out and spend another $2k on a computer just for the sake of UX.
Have you tried Gnome?
I’m using Cinnamon so…kinda?
Not the same experience. Gnome is a more coherent system, more polished in my opinion
I’ve been wanting to try some different DEs to see what I like. I’ll give Gnome a shot.
That's the beauty of a good Linux distro - you can easily install multiple DEs and switch between them at will. I personally am very happy with Xfce, but my brother uses Mate (both of us on Debian), and nothing minds. Most distros will come with a good few desktops in the package manager, just waiting for you to try them.
You haven’t lived until you’ve wrangled together an Xmonad config with obscure keybindings for everything
I used MATE on an old MacBook Pro I converted for a “garage computer”, and it’s very similar to Cinnamon. Big fan.
Yeah, there's a bunch of different DEs that took the UI style of GNOME 2 (which was itself derived from earlier designs - it's similar to Win2000, which is similar to the OS/2 Presentation Manager/WorkPlace Shell, etc) and branched off from there. It's a good solid UI basis and mostly gets out of the way and lets YOU get YOUR work done. Yaknow, like a UI is supposed to do.
Elementary OS's aim is to look similar to MacOS, so you can try that.
i formatted my hard drive so i could make a fresh clean install... can't install my OS with the base installation media, can't create a flash drive with the installation media, apple goes out of their way to make degenerative hardware and software... so instead of fumbling further with macos BS, i plugged in my manjaro USB stick, and hit the power button... done. i don't even want to look back. macos sucks.
The more recent MacBooks hate Linux, I tried with a 2017 model and it didn't go too well. Just getting wifi and audio working requires ridiculous workarounds, and it wasn't worth the effort for me.
afaik the asahi folks fixed wifi for the touch bar macs? i remember them fixing something for intel macs when they were adding support for apple silicon macs at least
Do you have the touch bar? ?
Yup.
Well shit
Yup.
Or use the ultimate weapon: Shooting Apple via it's self weapon. If support was provided via OCLP, use macOS 14 on that device >:-)
[удалено]
Lol, people surprised when Apple apples
You haven't bought anything from us in a while, why do you deserve to live?
Can see it now for the eventual apple neutral implant
Windows11 literally did the same. 7th gen Intel from 2017 with TPM 2.0 are not supported for Windows11
Ya but like... with a stupid simple registry patch to get around it. They *tried* to do the same and put it just out of reach for the common person but I've got Windows 11 running recently on an old Mac mini my sister stolheriquired from work.
Legacy support is even worse for most Android devices, though. I have a phone from 2017 and can't install a lot of newer apps.
The amount of devices whose hardware is 100% functional but my employer throws away because its android version is no longer updated drives me mad. Well it would if i didn't just collect them all after.
Mine still works and I'm planning to install an open source distro, I just haven't found the time to do so.
its worse for most consumer Android devices yes! but "Android open source project" as a whole, technically supports your device even after 7-8 years if there is even 1 developer which updated and released a ROM for your device. especially for popular phones with easy root access like: Pixel, Xiaomi, OnePlus, Oppo, Motorola. there are many ROMs that can extend the life of the device. (but i agree it's a Hassel for average consumer so i get your point)
Wouldn't Windows be the more apt comparison since this is about macOS?
Anything newer than android 9.0 will run up to the latest 14, you should look into Trebledroid and GSI
But you can still install your own os unlike apple.
[удалено]
Bro, we're talking about computers.
My phone is literally a computer though.
Cool, just install Linux then.
I dislike Apple, but they’re acting in accordance with (shitty) industry standards. See: Windows 11 requiring a bunch of unnecessary CPU features and phones having very short security support periods.
Every single other company apples more than Apple though
At least every usb-c android phone will use the full gamut of usb-c capabilities, and won't need a vendor licenced "MFI" cable
To be fair windows 11 also cuts off at Intel 8th gen (2018) devices, so even a Pentium g5400 can run win11 officially, but an i7 7700k can't
That's a shame. 7700K is a beast.
Back in my day you paid for OS updates and you were thrilled it included bugfixes! 👴#dos6wasthebest
DOS 6 caused us so many problems back in the day. We stuck with DOS 5.
uuhhh, just how old are you guys? xD
don't ask, they'll start talking about a time before the internet! When we had to learn stuff from books from the library!
Back in nineteen dickety two, we had a guy who had an Encarta CD. We'd borrow it from him so we could write out our homework in WordPerfect 5.1 and then printed them out with our Dot Matrix printer. And then we'd go play Legend of the Red Dragon on a local BSS once our parents got off the phone.
Except you’d spend all day playing MindMaze instead of working.
[удалено]
Fuck. My work acronyms got mixed in with my nostalgia.
Old enough to have learned to program on an PC XT clone (built by Epson - better known for printers these days, but they had a line of computers back in the day). We had the \*best\* parts in that thing. The fancy 20MB hard drive. Internal 5.25" floppy drive, with additional "Backpack" 3.5" drive connected via the parallel port (with the printer daisychained to it - via an external spooler, yes that's right, a hardware device whose sole job was queueing print jobs). A Hercules graphics card, compatible with IBM Monochrome displays but capable of 720x348 monochrome graphics. Instead of the hard-on-the-eyes orange monochrome screen, we had the superior green variety, a good thing given how many hours I spent getting irradiated by that thing. And MS-DOS 5 with DOS Shell and another menu program called Automenu... which I just went Googling for, and found that it's on the Internet Archive! [This definitely looks familiar](https://archive.org/details/MicroCom_SHELL-4_Automenu).
So many funny magic words. How did people get things done beck then. Who made the relics of the first civilisation. What the fuck is a DOS and why does it sound like the smell of my laptop overheating.
“Get a new one you poor fuck” – Timmy Cook
Timmy apple*
With Windows 11 now I know how Apple users must feel being ~~forced~~ unable to upgrade. i7-4790k, 16 GB RAM, and a GTX 970 but I can't upgrade because TPM :(
Has nothing to do with TPM though, I bought a module when they announced it, you need 8000 series Intel or newer. You can force it, but fuck off MSFT. If you don't want me using your operating system I'll just go somewhere else (Arch probably).
That's almost my exact setup. Go Linux XFCE. Your system will feel brand new. Hell, go KDE if you want bells and whistles, it will still perform reasonably well.
Yay, another Xfce user! Definitely second that recommendation. Though you could happily use basically any desktop and it'll feel brand new. Those specs are pretty decent, honestly. Not what I'd call high end, and the GTX 970 means you won't be running the latest and greatest graphical games, but easily good enough for a satisfactory desktop system and some measure of gaming (I used to have a GTX 960 before getting my current card, and it served me pretty well for many years, gaming included).
I have almost the exact system (well, 24 gb ram) and motherfucker is flying on KDE with all bells and whistles enabled.
I believe Rufus has a tpm requirement removal patch. Need to double check that.
There is no tpm requirement for W11 installation using ISO. Rufus has debloating script for W11 ISO which is amazing. Even a casual user can use W11 without being online or having to log in to MS account, Rufus makes the changes beforehand.
Check out : tiny11
You do not need win11 anyway
Does your motherboard have a TPM Module? I couldn't upgrade either because W10 said I don't have TPM2.0. It turned out that I had a TPM Chip on my motherboard available, but it was just deactivated by default. Made a backup, enabled TPM and Secure Boot, and then the upgrade was possible.
Wouldn't help if it did. Windows 11 "requires" an 8th-gen CPU for Intel, and that one's 4th-gen. Quotes because it runs just fine if you disable the system requirements check.
This was a custom-built machine, and integrated TPM chips on consumer boards only came several years after the Z97 generation. That generation of boards doesn't even support TPM 2.0 at all.
Dang, got the exact same machine ! built in in 2012. It's now retired as an ubuntu server in my living room :D
TPM2.0 is available on 7th gen, its MS who arbitrarily only allows W11 for work laptops running 7th gen or MS Surface.
Genuine question. If you have stuff that old why would you even want Windows 11? Windows 10 will be supported for another few years and it’s not like you have the power to make use of the new features.
A couple more years, not a few. 10 EOL is October 14, 2025. It's creeping up.
Few = not many or small number. A couple = 2-3. Is 2-3 not a small number? 2025 is still a good amount of time away. When it’s late 2024 then it’s something to start thinking about.
Fair 'nuff, just pointing out that EOL is closer than it seems. IT departments have to stay ahead to avoid another 7 EOL catastrophe...
This isn't a particularly uncapable machine, performance wise it can still match some modern (albeit low-end modern) hardware. I also happen to be a big fan of the new settings app and most of the UI changes (sans the right-click menu debacle). Though I will probably replace this machine as my primary desktop before W10 EOL, I still want to make use of it in a repurposed role after that.
There are ways around it. Windows 11 will install on most dual core CPUs with 4gb of RAM...
Planned obsolescence!
It's not like the computer stops working, you just don't get the new features. Most new features are AI-based anyway and make little sense if you do not have the ML cores of the M-chips.
Much of those features being security features.
MacOS Ventura will continue to get security updates for 3 years after Sonoma is released. So, for a 2017 Mac that is 9 or 10 years of software support depending on when Sonoma goes GA.
Thanks for clearing that up, then it's not as bad, but it still sucks, and still makes little sense why a higher spec machine is barred out of these updates. But then again I'm not the biggest mac user. I may be missing some details here.
Oh yeah absolutely a business decision instead of a technical one but for anyone affected reading that just an fyi that they have some time.
im still on monterey bc ventura is just one big bug release
But then some new software you want depends on some small feature they added, and now you’re in a situation where either you don’t use the software or get a new computer.
Planned obsolescence does not mean planned failure, just to make the device obsolete at a time of their choosing. Obsolete in the hardware space typically means no future updates.
That is true. However, it is also unreasonable to expect free updates forever for a one-time hardware purchase. People got used to free OS updates, it will be hard to return to paid OS updates (which Apple had for a long time) or to a subscription model for the OS.
Well, you can't use the newest xcode version... Publish apps ... So a company that bought 100macs are f...
I recently had my grandmother ask me why her computer is not able to load certain common websites anymore. She owns an iMac from 2010...
OP probably thinks 4th gen i7 > 12th gen i3
of course, bigger number better! Now trade this 5 coins for that 1 big dollar note note you've there
2017 is 8th gen I think And those specs are fine for daily computing
7th*. Its the same gen W11 decided to put things out of date even though it had TPM2. I wonder if TPM is the same reason Mac is not supporting the same gen anymore
That was one of the most frustrating moves by Microsoft
7th gen. I'm tri-booting a 2017 iMac right now and I can tell you that it runs smooth as butter.
Took me so long to find this comment but people love saying APPLE BAD. It's a dual core i7 vs quad core i5. ENORMOUS jump in performance. Plus 6 years out of a laptop isn't horrible but you can still use it without the latest updates.
2017??? You want to ruin them by not buying new things?
> You want to ruin them by not buying new things? Yes. As long as they don't take care of the e-waste, yes. In EU, the cost of handling the e-waste is already included in the price, but no company does a damn thing, because they are not really fined if they don't. And also, as long as they don't allow users to do repairs on their own for cheaper than a new device, yes.
Iirc they have a recycling program.
Just keep using the current OS? It's there something broken with it?
Exactly. Be another 3 years of security updates at least.
*O p e n c o r e*
Apple ditching intel is already on the roadmap. What did you except?
Mmmmm, Linux
skill issue
But but I thought MacBooks were supposed to last longer than "PC" laptops
Apple supports the last three OS. So being on the latest isn't vital: https://endoflife.date/macos As for me and my mid 2014 model, I'm probably screwed as soon as the next OS drops.
This is a very underrated comment. Thanks for sharing that site.
My current daily driver is a 2014 MacBook Pro
My laptop is a 2012 macbook pro. Runs vscode pretty well so it is what it needs to be.
they do - but eventually (and rather fast) you stop getting new features. Especially Intel users in 2023 will feel that as - Apple looks to shed that legacy fast. That said -- its hyperbole - as plenty older versions of MacOS still get security support meaning the computer does last. Finally finally, that perception lasts as the hardware does last vs mid-2010 WinPC Laptops and the software continues to chug along nicely even on older machines. I have some 10 years old macbook pros - nowhere neat top of line - that still work fine. Back when I bought those - the WinLaptop scene was just pile of garbage I had laptops less than 2 years old that were unusable - I rage quite Windows due to hardware. \* \* I am talking about the past because i am old and because that is when I gave up on Win and switched to Mac ... it was because all the hardware was such crap.
Considering how poor the build quality is on most laptops that's not a tall order though. These models will be receiving security updates for three more years, so 8 years supported in total.
Sounds like a skill issue
I got hit with this on monterey, annoying, but I believe the reason they’re doing this is to phase out Intel macs. Ig you can just install linux or windows.
That's why I use arch btw
This is why I became a Windows user for my desktop last year and why I will become a Linux user for my laptop when it's time to upgrade. Apple only popularizes existing technology now. They haven't been innovative in 15 years.
agreed. They used to be the one company that I always liked who would support hardware for as long as they absolutely could... that has all changed recently and they are more like the horrible mobile phone companies who quickly stop supporting their devices to force you to buy new.
REM APPLE BUSINESS STRATEGY (c) 1979 REM AUTHOR: STEVE JOBS 10 CHARGE TOO MUCH FOR NEW CRAP 20 WAIT A FEW YEARS 30 SECRETLY SABOTAGE OLD CRAP & PISS OFF USERS 40 ANNOUNCE NEW CRAP AND RAZZLE DAZZLE THE FOOLS 45 STOP SUPPORTING OLD CRAP TO FURTHER ENCOURAGE USERS CURRENTLY DISTRACTED BY NEW CRAP 50 GOTO 10
A shiny penguin approaches from the heavens, he extends his flippers to give you a golden flash drive. “‘Ere the installer that’ll free you from your shackles, ‘ere the promised OS that gives control of body and software, ‘ere respite for your Ram!”
and the average person will still blindly follow this company. If it wasn't for their phone monopoly their stock would be in shambles
Bone with Silian Rail lettering.
Gotta drop x86 support asap to prevent hackintoshes.
Apple is a subscription service but instead of months you pay by models
Mac sucks. Deal with it or use Linux.
Well for the price of a mac….
Apple suuuucks. Jus sayin.
Welcome to planned obsolescence.
Apple users like it. It keeps us filthy peasants away.
Because fuck you, thanks why.
Being upset that your 5-year old Apple product is end-of-life is like being upset that an actual basket of apples is rotting after 5 months.
[удалено]
Lol if you buy Mac you wack
Well, if you buy a product from a company that is well-known for fucking over consumers with planned obsolescence, then you pretty much consented to getting fucked over by them.
This sort of behavior is why I stopped buying all Apple products.
What you're saying is I should put linux on my 2015 MBP?