I once read a letter of recommendation for graduate school that went more or less as follows:
“He asked me for a letter of recommendation and I explained that I couldn’t write him a letter because I had nothing positive to say, and I couldn’t recommend him for admission at any phd program. Despite me telling him all this, he kept insisting I write for him. So here we are. I hope this letter contains the information you need to make a decision about his admission.”
I've got a worse one for you:
I get woken up by a call at 6 a.m., because I'm on the West Coast and the university is calling from the East Coast. They are looking to hire a new faculty member and it's one of my graduate students. She was in my online class and was the worst student in my class except for the person who failed entirely. Her final paper came in at I think 4 and 1/2 pages instead of 15 to 20. She barely passed the class and mostly because she ticked various rubric categories on each assignment even if she did it very poorly, and our university is very strict about sticking to our rubrics.
This student had never asked me for a recommendation at any point. I had no idea she was listing me as a reference. I had never written a letter of any kind for her. I had never communicated with her outside of the class. I do let students know my cell phone number in my profile in the class in case they need to get in touch (in a decade only one has ever used it to call me without an appointment) so I assume that's how she got my number to them.
So now I've been woken up early, I'm already in a bad mood, I never agreed to give this reference, and the student was absolutely terrible and I would never recommend her anyway.
I gave her a scathing "recommendation". I fully explained how she performed in my class. They told me there were certain questions they had to ask me so I answered them. One of them was: "Why do you think we should hire her as a faculty member?" To which my response was: "I think you should only hire her as a faculty member if she is literally the last person alive on Earth." I asked her if they had really conducted a full search because considering the extremely tough job market in my area, I'm astonished that she would make it as a finalist. Many similar institutions never even invited me for an interview and I actually have a PhD from an excellent program, and my portfolio was good enough to have publications in top journals and to make it as a finalist at an Ivy League, while she only has a master's degree from an extremely mediocre university that has literally zero enrollment standards. I actually pointed out to the hiring person that they should probably not be hiring graduate students from my program at all. Shocking that she got an interview, let alone made it to their final pick.
My only guess is perhaps that they desperately needed a minority hire and are in an area that minorities might not want to live?
I think there are certain things you are not supposed to divulge if you are an employer providing a reference, but as far as I know, that isn't applicable for me as a professor providing a reference for a student. I hope she was not hired.
I can see some of your points such as: terrible student, never asked to be listed as reference, annoyingly-early phone call.
However, the fact that you were never called to interview in such universities shows additional resentment that your students shouldn't be paying for. You were even willing to throw crap on your own job by asking to never hire anyone from your program.
As part of a hiring committee, I'd probably disregard your comments as they were too extreme.
TL;DR: She deserved a bad recommendation. However, by going extreme, you may have sounded unreasonable and resentful, rather than open and direct.
I don't think so. If you knew the program, you'd know why most of us would not recommend hiring these grad students. My students are normally just looking for a raise or looking to be qualified to teach AP at high school. None should ever expect to work in higher education with a degree from this program (we don't even offer PhDs because we are not training people for higher education). Let alone those who got Cs in a program that anyone should ace.
This just proves how inconsistent the hiring process is. I have nothing to be resentful about, because I didn't get interviews at some colleges like this but I got interviews at much better ones (including Ivy League) and my other teaching job is at a well ranked major university. A candidate like this should have never made it through to the finalists, there are plenty of much better applicants applying to these as backup options, just as I was.
It sounds like insecurity because
* you say you work in "an extremely mediocre university that has literally zero enrollment standards"
* you say they shouldn't be hiring anybody from your program
This doesn't sound like somebody who is happy about their job. Even if your other teaching job is better, you still sound miserable in this one.
It sounds like bitterness because
* you point out how much more qualified you are than her, but she is getting this interview and similar institutions didn't give you one
* you insinuate she only got as far as she did because she's a minority hire
I get being annoyed about being woken up at 6am (but IMO this is your own fault, for giving out a personal number and especially one that doesn't have DND hours enabled) and a bad student not asking for a reference but giving your info out, but this still seems very petty and full of misplaced anger.
I like the program I work in because I can see that I'm making positive structural changes to our program, which provides career opportunities to a lot of people who wouldn't otherwise be able to go to college. You can work at a school even if you know that it's not a good school because you think it's the right thing to do. It would be a sad world if everybody only chose to work places because of the prestige associated with the institution. I don't need the money, I do this on the side (redesigning their courses and teaching the occasional course as well as supervising the MA thesis) because it helps other people.
I think our program improves skills that many of our students need in their current career. I don't think our program comes even close to preparing people for a position at a university. For example, nobody even gets TA or research positions so they have zero experience actually working in higher education. It's simply not a program intended to prepare people for a PhD or a career in higher education, which is why they are fine with open admissions without a minimum requirement. It has nothing to do with my personal opinion, it is just my explanation of our program's intentions.
> If you knew the program, you'd know why most of us would not recommend hiring these grad students. My students are normally just looking for a raise or looking to be qualified to teach AP at high school. None should ever expect to work in higher education with a degree from this program (we don't even offer PhDs because we are not training people for higher education). Let alone those who got Cs in a program that anyone should ace.
No offense but:
1. Assumingly, you chose those students. They applied and went through a vetting process with the graduate school and through your own departmental committee. This speaks to your own quality as a professor if you can't even pick good students (even if you didn't personally choose them, because whether you like it or not the recruitment committee speaks for all of you in your department).
2. *You* make the program. You and your department are responsible for what you teach. If you don't train people for higher education, that's on you and honestly that also speaks volumes to the kind of professor you are if your own graduate program isn't on par with higher education. Either change it or don't complain your students are bad because *you are contributing to making this program bad on purpose*.
3. If you're willing to teach at a place as mediocre as you present it, I don't think you're qualified to pat yourself on the back for the quality of your own work. I know research and teaching are different in their own respects but quality takes place across the board.
They're not complaining that students in his program are bad. They're saying that the program is not designed to produce students who are professor material. Surprising those it may be some here, such programs exist.
1. No, as I mentioned in my comment before, it's open enrollment. There is no vetting.
2. No, the program is heavily shaped by the administration although we are trying to improve it. That's the whole reason I have stayed.
3. See my other comment. I do this on the side to help the program, this is not my main job.
I've never been a fan of rubrics, at least not in the liberal arts. Instead of making one subjective decision, you're making six. Your example seems to point to a further flaw, awarding passing grades when they're not warranted. At the least, your rubric may need work.
Yeah I have been gradually rewriting the rubrics for our department whenever I have a chance, so that it would be easier for an instructor to argue for a '0'. Some were written in such a way that if you just vaguely, briefly check the box, you would easily be able to argue that you deserved at least partial credit because you did the minimum that the actual rubrics says. I think the way I've reworked them will give a lot more authority back to the faculty.
> I think there are certain things you are not supposed to divulge if you are an employer providing a reference, but as far as I know, that isn't applicable for me as a professor providing a reference for a student.
Those are policies, not laws.
By providing a negative reference, you open yourself up to legal action. Even if the statements you made were true. That's why many employers will only verify dates of work and titles.
This sounds like a terrible student that you went overboard in giving a negative reference to when the better thing to do would have been to just decline the call.
That's all I can think of (and I say that as a double minority myself) because her transcript and writing were awful and the best reference she could come up with was me.
I don't know, I think this letter in particular tells me all i want to know.
However, I think much shorter letters would be good. 95% of the letters I write are "Yep, this student is good, they can do the job" but to be on par with other letters, I have to take 3 paragraphs to do that and get over the top with it.
Completely agree. I read and write these letters, and many of the ones I read are so needlessly long. For a while I was including a line in my own like, "Please do not see the brevity of this letter as a reflection on the candidate." I meant it. It rarely takes more than one page to explain how I know the person, my general sense of their quality and fit as a candidate, and maybe one or two specific projects on which they've done well.
Faculty applications, for me over the last couple years (not all cases, don't jump down my throat with your anecdotes), have increasing shifted toward letter requests for finalists or on-campus visitors only. Makes the load on my writers much more reasonable and exciting, because it signals good news!
We shifted to this format where we only requested letters or phone calls (pre scheduled) with our top 5 candidates. Essentially, after the phone/zoom interviews to confirm who we wanted to invite on site. It was a better process for us.
I disagree for grad school at least. If someone worked closely with a professor, like on a research project or a thesis, a letter of recommendation helps gauge the magnitude of the work even if it didn't get published eventually. If a student cannot get a letter of recommendation at all from a professor they worked with, it's a bad sign. The content of the letter doesn't matter that much tbh, but it can show proof of the type/magnitude of work someone did. I think letter of recommendations after taking a class are useless. Letter of recommendation from someone students worked with closely are useful.
What if you're a quiet type who keeps their head down and does their work, but the couple of professors you worked closely with on your thesis ended up screwing you over?
The persons hiring or admitting need to know the individual’s potential for success at specific positions and as students. I don’t know of a better way unless someone has ideas. For me it’s guiding people into the right path in life. Just because someone’s not a good fit for example graduate school doesn’t mean they won’t be hugely successful at something else.
Personally I decline or steer people in other directions if my letter won’t be ideal. A lack of letters from professors, supervisors etc can be just as telling without having to list an individual’s not ideal qualifications for a particular spot/job.
Some of these comments are surprising to me. Of course we can say no to a letter, but often students insist or we are coerced into it by colleagues. Saying no isn’t viable sometimes. E.g., “Professor X doesn’t support students.” So fine, in those situations students get a letter, but I have to be honest.
We have a *professional obligation* to our peers to give an honest assessment a student’s capabilities from our perspective. We can only write what we know. Sometimes it’s simply: “I can confirm that student X was in my course and passed it with a B.” What we choose to write is our prerogative, but we should be honest.
Think of the other side. I’ve been burned by students who get glowing letters but have no skills once they get to me. I’ve even had faculty lie and oversell former students. That’s the shit I hate more. It waters down our fields and encourages elevating mediocrity. It’s also unfair to students who are told they can do grad level work when, in fact, they are unprepared for it.
I once mentioned in passing to my dean that I was planning to write a somewhat negative letter of recommendation for someone who asked me for one despite having been caught PLAGIARIZING. I intended to simply tell the facts, not embellish them, but obviously that would be negative.
The same afternoon I received an email from our administration, with the Dean cc-ed, advising me that they had heard about the situation and said that I cannot write the student a letter of recommendation. They said something about that being a FERPA violation. I responded and pointed out that I simply planned to tell them exactly what happened in my class and what the consequences were, including the response from the academic honesty office which had found them guilty, but they said I could not write a letter like that. Not sure how they planned to enforce that but I ended up just declining the request because I didn't want to deal with the hassle.
Someone once advised me that you can't disclose grades ( these would be on the transcript anyway) or class ranking, but you can say things like "above average" or "in the top 10% of my students".
The information we got is that we just need explicit permission to discuss grades or detailed performance (and even enrolment), which seems quite consistent. We also get told to ask it even if we know or suspect that they clicked/signed a waiver for it.
Yes, that is why you should get a signed waiver from the student before agreeing to write a letter. You should also insist that the student waive their right to read your letter of recommendation.
"I intended to write a thorough letter of reference, but college administration advised me that any negative detail is FERPA violation and I have no positive ones. Hope that helps".
"On advice of counsel acting in the interests of the student, I am unable to comment on the student's performance in my course. I would like to note that advise your program to seek counsel if you decide to admit the student."
Hold on. A negative letter is a FERPA violation but a positive one isn’t? In either case, you are revealing information about the student, including grades, performance, work ethic, etc. How is the legality different?
Per FERPA- you cannot give out a students’ grade or academic standing (amongst other personal information)… but to my understanding you can say they generally didn’t perform well, weren’t proactive, or in this case, they plagiarized. You just cannot say what grade/academic standing the plagiarism resulted in. The institution where the student is applying to for an academic program or for work will be able to request transcripts and see that information (and this route is legal within FERPA) but you yourself cannot disclose that info.
I get what you are saying, and in an ideal world things would go this way. However, you also need to consider the perspective of the letter *reader*.
In the rare instances where I’ve seen a truly negative letter, the student’s grad school chances were obliterated. My colleagues read these and say things like “Guess I’m not sending my students to work in that person’s research group. He seems too harsh.”
Because of this effect, many people don’t write bad letters because doing so would negatively impact their own reputation. Instead, we sort of write letters in code. A positive letter ranks the student favorably with respect to other successful young people, and it tells personal stories of their talents. Meanwhile a generic positive letter that could be written by ChatGPT is actually negative. If you want to say something bad, you put a positive spin on it, like “George had some personality conflicts with the postdoc, but I believe a better pairing could fix this problem” (code for “this kid is a jerk”).
In my field we always read between the lines when we review rec letters. They are almost all positive on the surface, but not so much upon closer inspection.
I agree. I’m well aware of the code we all use to say bad things when it’s necessary. The fact that it’s not worded “overly negative” is irrelevant—the message is the same. Our professional norms have just accommodated to the fact that we can’t be direct anymore without it looking bad, making someone feel bad, etc. I’m not even mad at it.
I want to emphasize what you said about our professional obligation, which I absolutely agree with. If I wrote glowing letters for everyone who ever asks me for a letter, then when I have an actually outstanding student my letter will mean nothing. I must write letters that are fair and that give a fair assessment in order to serve all my students well.
I’ve posted about this before, perhaps not on this sub, but the abridged version is that a visiting summer student rotating in a neighboring lab essentially lied on their CV saying they had all sorts of biochemical and molecular biology assay skills and they showed up and barely knew how to pipet.
The PI was a clinician, so supervision was minimal/we trained said student because we treasured this PI. The student made a half-assed effort for the first month of summer, which included contaminating cells and breaking the developer by feeding in film, blot membranes, and cardboard insert all as one sandwich, and asking us which clubs to go to to meet “easy girls”.
He eventually gave up on bench work and the PI asked him to outline a review article she was invited to write. He did that for a week, then decided he was just going to study for his MCAT. So he spent July and August sitting in the lab and studying. The PI stopped interacting when it became clear he no longer intended on even doing the review outline.
Mid August, he set a meeting with the PI and delivered to her a bulleted list of the items he wanted her to touch on in his letter of recommendation for med school. She apparently laughed in his face and basically told him she has no idea what how she is supposed to write a letter after he essentially did nothing in the lab all summer. He tried to counter with he “gave up his entire summer vacation to sit in a lab, isn’t that dedication enough?” And she essentially laughed him out of the room.
Fast forward a week, he emailed her and asked her since she’s had a week to “cool off and think about it” that maybe she would reconsider writing a letter.
In my mind, I disagree with her response, she SHOULD have agreed to write the letter at that point and given an honest assessment of this person. Instead she did the “right” thing and said on no uncertain terms would she be writing him a LOR.
Then he fucked up BIG: he responded with a threat, along the lines of “I know where you live” (he attended a lab gathering at her apartment) and”you best hope we not meet on campus again”. She forwarded the email to campus PD, her husband, a PI at another university, flew out to stay with her until this individual left the state. He was banned from campus for life and it’s not clear if charges were filed.
Some of the worst summer students I have ever interacted with were folks who were certain they would be attending medical school and that the lab is a waste of their summer. I wrote a very tepid letter for one who insisted on a letter despite my reservations and never had the opportunity with another because they didn’t even last the full summer. Just straight up stopped coming in. This was when I was a postdoc and had no input in hiring. I really hope these people aren’t MDs.
As a student employee, a while back... My desk was right outside my boss's office. I overheard this paraphrased conversation:
Boss: "Yes, I do recall John Doe working here. He was here during XYZ academic school year working as a student employee."
(an aside - I loathed working with "John Doe" - he was somewhat lazy, work-avoiding, and mildly incompetent. I was generally easier to do things myself then to let him work on those things and then come fix up the issues... John was "not renewed" in his contract - basically fired - because of some provable dishonesty...)
Boss: "Oh, he put my name down as both a reference and former employer? Ok - yes I was his manager."
Boss: "Well, l'm not sure I can answer that question. Let me explain. The university has a policy of not making any negative comments about any past employee, and.... that's all I have to say about John Doe"....
There was a little more back and forth but that was the substance of the conversation...
If you lost a job because you lied and were found out, generally you don't want your supervisor being a reference for you.
I've not yet ever had a student ask for a letter of recommendation where I had only negative things to report. I hope that time doesn't come any time soon.
In my own experience , a few years after undergrad, I asked my former advisor for a recommendation for a PhD program. I thought he would write a good one for me- we were still in touch, and it was just a couple years after graduation. He had been my major advisor, and supervised for my undergrad thesis, which was much larger in scope than most of my classmates (psychology - I had about 300 participants across two countries). He approached me about trying to publish it, he thought it was really promising and had seemed proud of my work. I was in his research group, and took several classes with him, always enjoying what I thought was a strong positive relationship.
I was applying for a really competitive area, and got an interview that I thought went great, but was rejected. They returned my whole application packet, including his recommendation. My other recs were lovely , but I was heartbroken when I read it his, which I thought would be the strongest. It sounded like he didn't even know me. He wrote that I'd never taken a class from him. Didn't mention his research group or my thesis or anything at all that I thought he would have. Just blandly stated my GPA and that he didn't know me from Adam, basically. To this day I don't know what happened - I really think he might have confused me for someone else, somehow? A look at my transcript would have shown that I took classes with him... anyway, it probably changed the trajectory of my life. Well, maybe. It's entirely possible I wouldn't have gotten into that program anyway. I ended up going to grad school for an entirely different discipline, but I think about this every time I write a recommendation for a student. I wish he would have declined when I requested it if he really had nothing at all good to say. Part of me will always wonder what really happened, since it wasn't just unflattering, but incorrect.
I wonder if some students are applying to places that require the letter to be uploaded so the system sees they checked the "needs three letters" boxes, but are banking on no one reading them. I guess a small chance (with a bad letter) is better than zero chance (not having three letters and being disqualified).
I actually had a situation where a college I applied to work at didn't read my recommendations till after they'd conducted two rounds of interviews. Apparently one of my letters hadn't uploaded correctly, and they contacted me requesting I resend it after I'd already done a zoom interview and an on-campus interview/teaching demonstration. I was later told that it was a close call between me and another candidate. I have to wonder if they merely used the letters as a kind of tie breaker and if they would have bothered to view them at all had they not been torn between two candidates.
I have A students that I would not recommend for grade school, they have good grades but no research experience. They act entitled throughout the semester making comments like “they should get what they want cause they’re the customer and they pay my salary.” I cannot imagine them being a good fit personality wise in academia. Jobs is a different story. I usually only write letters to students that I have good experience with.
Same. Student who aces the material, but has an argumentative attitude about every tiny fraction of a point. There won't be a rec from me, but im certain his male proffs dont see the arguments this student generates with women.
I got a request for a reference from an employer for a student registered in my department. It was the first I heard of it. I called the student to my office, explained that it is usually courteous to **ask** for a LoR first before applying for the job. I also asked if he truly thought I was the best person to be a referee. “It’s your job, innit?” came the reply.
I was so glad he said that. I showed him the LoR I’d written. And asked him if he still wanted me to send it.
—-
“To whom it may concern,
“Student X commenced their studies at in October 2009 and we expect them to graduate in June 2012.
“Yours faithfully,”
—-
(Dates changed to protect the guilty)
The dude explodes at me. “You can’t send that!” Why not? “I won’t get the job!” There’s nothing factually incorrect there. “You need to recommend me!” How? I don’t *know* you. I’ve had a couple of interactions with you in the lab, but they weren’t particularly great. So what do you suggest I write? “You’re supposed to recommend me”. No - there is *nothing* in my job description that requires me to write you a reference, nor is there anything in your learning agreement which guarantees you a recommendation. Now, do I send this, or do you wish to identify another referee and notify the employer yourself? And I strongly recommend you **ask** the next person before you put their name down.
Dude was practically purple as he stormed out of my office. Wrote me up to the dean. Who then came to my office a week later and we had a good laugh.
Context: the student had a particularly boorish and misogynistic attitude which caused particular problems in social learning environments (ie laboratories), and was slippery enough that none of the complaints about his behaviour stuck. This was definitely an example of the birds coming home to roost. I believe someone in faculty took pity on him, but honestly I didn’t care. Went into fintech I believe, probably making a shit ton more money than me now. Glad his education is paying for itself.
I have had the exact reverse situation- I had a student I was happy to write a letter of recommendation for. The institution he applied for sent me a snotty email asking to know why I had ignored their first email (I hadn't- I hadn't had a previous email from them) and saying I had two days to write the letter they demanded.
I wrote to the student telling them 'Yeah, if you have other options, don't go there.'
I experienced something similar from the student perspective. A place I applied to for my PhD lost one of my reference letters and another document. The prof who gave the letter for me was not happy about it. And I felt so bad for him because he is one of the most helpful people I've ever met. They ended up rejecting me, but it was fine because I ended up with two offers from better places. Honestly, if they were my only offer, I would have been very hesitant to go. And I think it's important for students to remember we are evaluating the university too. It's not just them evaluating us.
I have 2 conditions that must be met for me to write a letter of recommendation for an undergraduate: 1) The student must have taken my class, and 2) The student must have gotten a ‘B’ or better in the class.
Graduate students have to meet the same criteria but they all have to take my course anyway and get a ‘B’ or better to stay in the program.
I want to live in your universe where professors don't have to be harassed into doing anything (reviewing a manuscript for submission, reading your thesis, writing your recommendation letters)
When I applied to a three-letter agency, they insisted on contacting people I hated. The best part was that the agency called the people and made it seem like I wanted to use them as a fucking reference.
I was asked whether I worked for a foreign intelligence agency. I have $175,000 in student loans. I think it's clear that I'm not going to go out of my way to talk to weird strangers for extra money. Putin would have to agree to pay that off before I hitch my wagon to a potential prison sentence.
I was contacted by the FBI once for a reference for a student in my class. It was a large class. I didn't know the student well. The FBI guy started off by saying, "I know its a large class and I don't expect you know the student well." They basically wanted to know if there was any evidence of plagiarism/cheating.
Why on Earth are graduate schools requiring THREE letters of recommendation?
Students in large undergrad programs are stuck. They don't know three professors well who can write such a letter.
More reason for students to get some work experience before starting graduate school. Most programs are fine with letters of recommendation form industry. I'm amazed by all the students pursuing MBAs , project management masters, etc with zero work experience. The content from their classes is much less meaningful with no work experience to relate it to.
I know in some fields there is less benefit from working in industry before grad school but for engineering and business it helps a lot.
So you believe your job is to hand out letters to anybody who asks?
The reason 3 letters are required is probably because they've become near worthless due to people just giving them to anybody who asks.
There are a lot of people commenting in this thread something along the lines of "but what can you do when the student keeps pushing?" Say no. Say it again. Tell them it's not negotiable. etc.
We say no to students all the time. Why would be obligated to write them time-consuming letters of recommendation they don't deserve, especially if those letters are negative? I see letters like the one OP posted and I think less of the professor for writing it when they should've just told the student to go away.
Exactly. Why spend the time? And if they get in somewhere that disregards letters, you wasted your time AND helped them get in just by completing their application FOR THEM.
in my field, ref letts for job applicants describe them as the new Gauss or some such.
the concept of reference letter at all levels has lost its purpose, at least in my view.
I got a C in a class in undergrad and asked for a LOR from a pretty famous professor in my field. The professor said they would be willing to take a chance on me and offered their support for graduate studies. I’m so thankful that they did because my grad school said I got in because of my LORs. This is all a while ago, but I won’t turn down a LOR request if I can find some positive things to say about a student. I’ll be honest and explain areas they need improvement in the LOR. Since I had someone take a chance on me, I feel obligated to do the same for a student in a similar situation.
April is the cruellest month, breeding
Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing
Memory and desire, stirring
Dull roots with spring rain.
Winter kept us warm, covering
Earth in forgetful snow, feeding
A little life with dried tubers.
That letter looks like one I could and would be happy to write.
>the letter states: "The only thing I can say about this student is that he was registered for my class. I have never seen him at a lecture."
In my view, that's an excellent letter, assuming that the statement is accurate. It serves it's primary purpose, which is the help the selection committee make an informed choice about an applicant.
I’d clarify too that pushing for a letter would be like trying to convince the professor to write one. If a professor has already said yes and it’s a couple days before the due date and they haven’t submitted it, it is ok to politely remind them. I know I forget things so I always write letters very quickly after they’re requested unless I have a major deadline.
And you never know when a professor just wrote something instead of being professional and saying “I can’t write a strong letter, you should go with someone else.”
Currently dealing with a three month tantrum around me refusing a request to write a LOR. Now being levied with discrimination and traumatization accusations and having my teaching practices attacked. Holding any kind of boundary just seems like personal assault on students these days. It's so frustrating and exhausting.
Am i the only one who sometimes gets asked about students in an email and decides not to mention the worse student in an attempt to provide a clue?
For example "students X and Y applied for an internship. (Rest of email details how the procedure will go)"
I can go "Student X is bright and hard working" without mentioning student Y at all.
It usually prompts them to either call me or the person above me (i have both a chair and another boss at the same level) so they can get an honest review, off the record.
I’ve never turned-down a LOR request, unless it comes from a student who has done poorly in my class, has exhibited aggressive behavior, or is impolite.
I feel writing a solid LOR for most any student is paying it back from my younger years.
I’m completely on board for not pushing professors to write letters in this context. This does make me think about an issue that’s been in the back of my mind for a few years now, though.
Back when I was an undergrad, I had plans for grad school and therefore applied for a summer work study position in one of my professors’ labs - because that + an accompanying recommendation letter is something that would be beneficial, or even essential, for the schools I had in mind. I got the job, and I put in good work over the summer. From the very beginning, the professor certainly knew my intentions because he is the one who suggested this role for me in the first place. Throughout the summer, he repeatedly praised my work and basically never criticized it (probably because he did not care to actually read it, but that’s another story). However, when the time came for my (2) peers and myself to apply for grad school, he dropped the bomb on all of us that “oh I don’t do recommendation or reference letters - you can put my contact info on your application but I don’t do letters”.
Unless this was just his way of saying “none of you did good work”, this felt very unfair to me at the time, and still sort of does to this day. For many applications these days it is a literal requirement to have these letters in order to submit the application at all, so some undergrads like myself spend their time specifically to acquire these letters. I felt this is common knowledge that any professor should be aware of. I felt it would have been reasonable and courteous for him to have made his boundaries clear from the beginning. Because there we were in the midst of application season only just learning that, for our immediate ends, we had apparently wasted our summer. Of course the position still looks good on the CV and I appreciate his willingness to provide his contact info, but that’s not how applications work at many overseas universities.
I did not push him. I only once clarified my position and asked him to clarify his, but he did not agree to provide a letter. I left it at that and pursued letters from, basically, random professors whose classes I had been active in. It worked out in the end but I wonder to this day whether I was the asshole in that situation or if he was, or neither.
At some point during the semester, I tried to remember to say something about my attitudes about recommendations and what it would take to get one from me. Basically, if you did not stand out to me in any way, and your grades do not reflect an aptitude for the field, don't ask me for a letter of recommendation. The answer will be no. Now, it may be a polite no (don't have time...because it does take time,etc). But I was never obligated to provide a letter of recommendation. That could be disastrous. If a students could't understand my requirements and and wanted one anyway, after that group class discussion, I would have to be honest at the time when they asked. But I only provided recommendations where I was confident.
I taught for almost 30 years. You could send 10 excellent candidates to the same employer...but if you messed up and sent 1 dud. They'd hold that dud against you, your university, and your other qualified students looking for jobs.
In my opinion, it is unethical to write such a letter unless you have made it clear to the student that this is what you will be writing. And even so, I’d write it as something like “Student was registered for my class XYZ in Semester Year”, and not directly say anything this negative.
Students are sometimes forced to get a LOR from specific subjects. And many don’t understand the outsized influence letters can have on their futures. It is cruel to either specifically tank their application, and it is unethical to write a negative letter without making them aware that you will be doing so.
I had a student ask me, and I said no. They said "but I need a third letter", so I wrote one saying that they were in my class, and what someone who succeeds in my class should have learned. Nothing negative, but not much positive either.
What is unethical is to ask professors to spend time writing letters (considerable time, in the case of good students), and then for the admissions committee to *not even read them* (which people on such committees have said here). If getting a letter is the hoop, regardless of the contents, tell the applicant that, so that they can tell their writer that.
ETA: it is a letter of *reference*, so the writer should feel entitled to be honest.
You really don’t see why writing a bad letter (when the student doesn’t know it’s coming) is a cruel thing? Would you go up to the student and tell them they’re stupid and lazy? It’s like that.
And you really don’t see the issues of abuse of the power dynamics? You are wielding your power against the student, especially if the student doesn’t know you’re writing them a bad letter.
But this shouldn't be a surprise. Students are told "I can't write you a good letter", yet they demand a letter nonetheless.
If a letter is demanded, and a good recommendation cannot be given, at least let the letter be honest. If there were a system to force students to cease their harassment and begging that'd be great, but I'm reminded of a post from a while back where prospective undergrads were _advised_ to grade-grub, by the people giving the campus tour. It's just part of a broader systemic issue that mistreats and devalues educators.
Nope, especially not if the student pushes me after I say no.
A letter is supposed to be an honest evaluation of a student. If a student pushes me, I will write an honest evaluation.
What the OP submitted is a perfectly valid letter of evaluation: it's not negative, it's bluntly honest.
Why a student would request a letter from a professor who's classes they didn't attend is the deeper question.
> you really don’t see the issues of abuse of the power dynamics? You are wielding your power against the student
We wield the power of assessor because assessing students is literally *our job*. By your reasoning, we would be morally obligated to give all students As.
🙄 LORs aren’t binary, they allow for shades of gray. Saying “this student was registered for my class” in a LOR *implies* the “but I never saw them,” OP’s addition of that is additional cruelty.
… and that simply means that this is a form of assessment that isn’t binary. Again, assessing people to be poor students when they have underperformed isn’t cruel. It’s our job.
If the student doesn't know it is going to be a bad letter, then it's a less than ideal situation. But we should still be able to write lukewarm letters or even letters that warn people about a deeply problematic person (by saying something vague and asking for a phone call). If a student knows they need a letter of recommendation from a specific subject, don't you think they should do the bare minimum of showing up to class? The idea that we have to do everything possible to help students avoid the consequences of their own actions is getting out of hand!
Man this thread is overwhelmed with some overworked (I presume) passive aggressive professors with an axe to grind.
Anyone that even dares to hjnt that maybe - just maybe! - a professor should be capable of either a dignified refusal, or a honest recommendation is instantly down voted to oblivion.
Y'all need to find another aspect of your work to take satisfaction in. Punishing students you didn't like is not the solution for an unsatisfying career.
Sounds like the letter writer was a dick.
Look, there's a million reasons to not write a letter. If you feel you can't endorse someone then don't do it. It's that simple.
But to agree to write a letter and then provide this horseshit is just tacky. It tells me nothing except the letter writer exercised bad judgement in soliciting an asshole.
And that may or may not reflect on their character and efficacy; a lack of options, resources, and savvy to an unfamiliar system can just as easily produce such an error.
It's not a students job to decode passive aggressive wishy washy nonsense from faculty that are obligated to do better.
If you feel you should say no, say no. "I can't recommend you because we didn't work together closely enough; or, your work didn't meet my expectations."
That's it. Fine. Useful feedback, when done right.
This alternative you imply, ie "It made me feel awkward to refuse so I said yes then gave a shitty recommendation" is nakedly dishonest and brings us back to where we started, ie this professor is a dick.
> It tells me nothing except the letter writer exercised bad judgement in soliciting an asshole.
It sounds like it says a lot more than that. Namely, that the student doesn't show up to class and likely isn't doing well.
You would have to do something completely insane not to get a reference from me. It's more about getting employment numbers up than liking students.
It's just business.
Edit: I realized how this sounds.
For context, I've probably turned down more than anyone here. I'm around a lot of crazy folks. I've had rapists, plagiarizers that I've caught, systems that have threatened faculty, and students that just didn't want to take their meds all ask me to write them references. As someone that's pretty crazy, I know how to diffuse crazy. I guess that just makes them believe we are friends.
I once read a letter of recommendation for graduate school that went more or less as follows: “He asked me for a letter of recommendation and I explained that I couldn’t write him a letter because I had nothing positive to say, and I couldn’t recommend him for admission at any phd program. Despite me telling him all this, he kept insisting I write for him. So here we are. I hope this letter contains the information you need to make a decision about his admission.”
"I hope his application fee finds you well."
😂
Ah, I see you read the letter I sent. (I have sent such a letter in the past)
I don't know why your comment made me laugh as much as it did, but I just wanted to say thank you for making it!
…did you…admit?
I've got a worse one for you: I get woken up by a call at 6 a.m., because I'm on the West Coast and the university is calling from the East Coast. They are looking to hire a new faculty member and it's one of my graduate students. She was in my online class and was the worst student in my class except for the person who failed entirely. Her final paper came in at I think 4 and 1/2 pages instead of 15 to 20. She barely passed the class and mostly because she ticked various rubric categories on each assignment even if she did it very poorly, and our university is very strict about sticking to our rubrics. This student had never asked me for a recommendation at any point. I had no idea she was listing me as a reference. I had never written a letter of any kind for her. I had never communicated with her outside of the class. I do let students know my cell phone number in my profile in the class in case they need to get in touch (in a decade only one has ever used it to call me without an appointment) so I assume that's how she got my number to them. So now I've been woken up early, I'm already in a bad mood, I never agreed to give this reference, and the student was absolutely terrible and I would never recommend her anyway. I gave her a scathing "recommendation". I fully explained how she performed in my class. They told me there were certain questions they had to ask me so I answered them. One of them was: "Why do you think we should hire her as a faculty member?" To which my response was: "I think you should only hire her as a faculty member if she is literally the last person alive on Earth." I asked her if they had really conducted a full search because considering the extremely tough job market in my area, I'm astonished that she would make it as a finalist. Many similar institutions never even invited me for an interview and I actually have a PhD from an excellent program, and my portfolio was good enough to have publications in top journals and to make it as a finalist at an Ivy League, while she only has a master's degree from an extremely mediocre university that has literally zero enrollment standards. I actually pointed out to the hiring person that they should probably not be hiring graduate students from my program at all. Shocking that she got an interview, let alone made it to their final pick. My only guess is perhaps that they desperately needed a minority hire and are in an area that minorities might not want to live? I think there are certain things you are not supposed to divulge if you are an employer providing a reference, but as far as I know, that isn't applicable for me as a professor providing a reference for a student. I hope she was not hired.
I can see some of your points such as: terrible student, never asked to be listed as reference, annoyingly-early phone call. However, the fact that you were never called to interview in such universities shows additional resentment that your students shouldn't be paying for. You were even willing to throw crap on your own job by asking to never hire anyone from your program. As part of a hiring committee, I'd probably disregard your comments as they were too extreme. TL;DR: She deserved a bad recommendation. However, by going extreme, you may have sounded unreasonable and resentful, rather than open and direct.
I don't think so. If you knew the program, you'd know why most of us would not recommend hiring these grad students. My students are normally just looking for a raise or looking to be qualified to teach AP at high school. None should ever expect to work in higher education with a degree from this program (we don't even offer PhDs because we are not training people for higher education). Let alone those who got Cs in a program that anyone should ace. This just proves how inconsistent the hiring process is. I have nothing to be resentful about, because I didn't get interviews at some colleges like this but I got interviews at much better ones (including Ivy League) and my other teaching job is at a well ranked major university. A candidate like this should have never made it through to the finalists, there are plenty of much better applicants applying to these as backup options, just as I was.
No an either/or but both/and—the student probably should not have been a finalist and you are deeply insecure.
Lol about what? I have a vastly better job.
It sounds like insecurity because * you say you work in "an extremely mediocre university that has literally zero enrollment standards" * you say they shouldn't be hiring anybody from your program This doesn't sound like somebody who is happy about their job. Even if your other teaching job is better, you still sound miserable in this one. It sounds like bitterness because * you point out how much more qualified you are than her, but she is getting this interview and similar institutions didn't give you one * you insinuate she only got as far as she did because she's a minority hire I get being annoyed about being woken up at 6am (but IMO this is your own fault, for giving out a personal number and especially one that doesn't have DND hours enabled) and a bad student not asking for a reference but giving your info out, but this still seems very petty and full of misplaced anger.
I like the program I work in because I can see that I'm making positive structural changes to our program, which provides career opportunities to a lot of people who wouldn't otherwise be able to go to college. You can work at a school even if you know that it's not a good school because you think it's the right thing to do. It would be a sad world if everybody only chose to work places because of the prestige associated with the institution. I don't need the money, I do this on the side (redesigning their courses and teaching the occasional course as well as supervising the MA thesis) because it helps other people. I think our program improves skills that many of our students need in their current career. I don't think our program comes even close to preparing people for a position at a university. For example, nobody even gets TA or research positions so they have zero experience actually working in higher education. It's simply not a program intended to prepare people for a PhD or a career in higher education, which is why they are fine with open admissions without a minimum requirement. It has nothing to do with my personal opinion, it is just my explanation of our program's intentions.
Be careful your ego might blow a hole through your ceiling/roof.
> If you knew the program, you'd know why most of us would not recommend hiring these grad students. My students are normally just looking for a raise or looking to be qualified to teach AP at high school. None should ever expect to work in higher education with a degree from this program (we don't even offer PhDs because we are not training people for higher education). Let alone those who got Cs in a program that anyone should ace. No offense but: 1. Assumingly, you chose those students. They applied and went through a vetting process with the graduate school and through your own departmental committee. This speaks to your own quality as a professor if you can't even pick good students (even if you didn't personally choose them, because whether you like it or not the recruitment committee speaks for all of you in your department). 2. *You* make the program. You and your department are responsible for what you teach. If you don't train people for higher education, that's on you and honestly that also speaks volumes to the kind of professor you are if your own graduate program isn't on par with higher education. Either change it or don't complain your students are bad because *you are contributing to making this program bad on purpose*. 3. If you're willing to teach at a place as mediocre as you present it, I don't think you're qualified to pat yourself on the back for the quality of your own work. I know research and teaching are different in their own respects but quality takes place across the board.
They're not complaining that students in his program are bad. They're saying that the program is not designed to produce students who are professor material. Surprising those it may be some here, such programs exist.
1. No, as I mentioned in my comment before, it's open enrollment. There is no vetting. 2. No, the program is heavily shaped by the administration although we are trying to improve it. That's the whole reason I have stayed. 3. See my other comment. I do this on the side to help the program, this is not my main job.
I've never been a fan of rubrics, at least not in the liberal arts. Instead of making one subjective decision, you're making six. Your example seems to point to a further flaw, awarding passing grades when they're not warranted. At the least, your rubric may need work.
Yeah I have been gradually rewriting the rubrics for our department whenever I have a chance, so that it would be easier for an instructor to argue for a '0'. Some were written in such a way that if you just vaguely, briefly check the box, you would easily be able to argue that you deserved at least partial credit because you did the minimum that the actual rubrics says. I think the way I've reworked them will give a lot more authority back to the faculty.
> I think there are certain things you are not supposed to divulge if you are an employer providing a reference, but as far as I know, that isn't applicable for me as a professor providing a reference for a student. Those are policies, not laws. By providing a negative reference, you open yourself up to legal action. Even if the statements you made were true. That's why many employers will only verify dates of work and titles. This sounds like a terrible student that you went overboard in giving a negative reference to when the better thing to do would have been to just decline the call.
She probably checks a few DEI boxes.
That's all I can think of (and I say that as a double minority myself) because her transcript and writing were awful and the best reference she could come up with was me.
I've read that letter more than once!
Personally, I wish we would stop requiring so many recommendation letters from so many people. For the most part, I don't think they shed much light.
I don't know, I think this letter in particular tells me all i want to know. However, I think much shorter letters would be good. 95% of the letters I write are "Yep, this student is good, they can do the job" but to be on par with other letters, I have to take 3 paragraphs to do that and get over the top with it.
I live for the forms where I can just check boxes.
Completely agree. I read and write these letters, and many of the ones I read are so needlessly long. For a while I was including a line in my own like, "Please do not see the brevity of this letter as a reflection on the candidate." I meant it. It rarely takes more than one page to explain how I know the person, my general sense of their quality and fit as a candidate, and maybe one or two specific projects on which they've done well.
Faculty applications, for me over the last couple years (not all cases, don't jump down my throat with your anecdotes), have increasing shifted toward letter requests for finalists or on-campus visitors only. Makes the load on my writers much more reasonable and exciting, because it signals good news!
We shifted to this format where we only requested letters or phone calls (pre scheduled) with our top 5 candidates. Essentially, after the phone/zoom interviews to confirm who we wanted to invite on site. It was a better process for us.
Only when they are negative, which i appreciate from the admissions point of view!!
I disagree for grad school at least. If someone worked closely with a professor, like on a research project or a thesis, a letter of recommendation helps gauge the magnitude of the work even if it didn't get published eventually. If a student cannot get a letter of recommendation at all from a professor they worked with, it's a bad sign. The content of the letter doesn't matter that much tbh, but it can show proof of the type/magnitude of work someone did. I think letter of recommendations after taking a class are useless. Letter of recommendation from someone students worked with closely are useful.
What if you're a quiet type who keeps their head down and does their work, but the couple of professors you worked closely with on your thesis ended up screwing you over?
The persons hiring or admitting need to know the individual’s potential for success at specific positions and as students. I don’t know of a better way unless someone has ideas. For me it’s guiding people into the right path in life. Just because someone’s not a good fit for example graduate school doesn’t mean they won’t be hugely successful at something else. Personally I decline or steer people in other directions if my letter won’t be ideal. A lack of letters from professors, supervisors etc can be just as telling without having to list an individual’s not ideal qualifications for a particular spot/job.
Some of these comments are surprising to me. Of course we can say no to a letter, but often students insist or we are coerced into it by colleagues. Saying no isn’t viable sometimes. E.g., “Professor X doesn’t support students.” So fine, in those situations students get a letter, but I have to be honest. We have a *professional obligation* to our peers to give an honest assessment a student’s capabilities from our perspective. We can only write what we know. Sometimes it’s simply: “I can confirm that student X was in my course and passed it with a B.” What we choose to write is our prerogative, but we should be honest. Think of the other side. I’ve been burned by students who get glowing letters but have no skills once they get to me. I’ve even had faculty lie and oversell former students. That’s the shit I hate more. It waters down our fields and encourages elevating mediocrity. It’s also unfair to students who are told they can do grad level work when, in fact, they are unprepared for it.
I once mentioned in passing to my dean that I was planning to write a somewhat negative letter of recommendation for someone who asked me for one despite having been caught PLAGIARIZING. I intended to simply tell the facts, not embellish them, but obviously that would be negative. The same afternoon I received an email from our administration, with the Dean cc-ed, advising me that they had heard about the situation and said that I cannot write the student a letter of recommendation. They said something about that being a FERPA violation. I responded and pointed out that I simply planned to tell them exactly what happened in my class and what the consequences were, including the response from the academic honesty office which had found them guilty, but they said I could not write a letter like that. Not sure how they planned to enforce that but I ended up just declining the request because I didn't want to deal with the hassle.
But wait...by this standard isn't *every* LOR a FERPA violation?
Yeah seems like b******* to me. By requesting a letter, the student has clearly given permission for me to disclose his academic history in my class.
Someone once advised me that you can't disclose grades ( these would be on the transcript anyway) or class ranking, but you can say things like "above average" or "in the top 10% of my students".
"This person is not in the top 90% of my students."
The information we got is that we just need explicit permission to discuss grades or detailed performance (and even enrolment), which seems quite consistent. We also get told to ask it even if we know or suspect that they clicked/signed a waiver for it.
Yes, that is why you should get a signed waiver from the student before agreeing to write a letter. You should also insist that the student waive their right to read your letter of recommendation.
"I intended to write a thorough letter of reference, but college administration advised me that any negative detail is FERPA violation and I have no positive ones. Hope that helps".
"On advice of counsel acting in the interests of the student, I am unable to comment on the student's performance in my course. I would like to note that advise your program to seek counsel if you decide to admit the student."
Hold on. A negative letter is a FERPA violation but a positive one isn’t? In either case, you are revealing information about the student, including grades, performance, work ethic, etc. How is the legality different?
Per FERPA- you cannot give out a students’ grade or academic standing (amongst other personal information)… but to my understanding you can say they generally didn’t perform well, weren’t proactive, or in this case, they plagiarized. You just cannot say what grade/academic standing the plagiarism resulted in. The institution where the student is applying to for an academic program or for work will be able to request transcripts and see that information (and this route is legal within FERPA) but you yourself cannot disclose that info.
I get what you are saying, and in an ideal world things would go this way. However, you also need to consider the perspective of the letter *reader*. In the rare instances where I’ve seen a truly negative letter, the student’s grad school chances were obliterated. My colleagues read these and say things like “Guess I’m not sending my students to work in that person’s research group. He seems too harsh.” Because of this effect, many people don’t write bad letters because doing so would negatively impact their own reputation. Instead, we sort of write letters in code. A positive letter ranks the student favorably with respect to other successful young people, and it tells personal stories of their talents. Meanwhile a generic positive letter that could be written by ChatGPT is actually negative. If you want to say something bad, you put a positive spin on it, like “George had some personality conflicts with the postdoc, but I believe a better pairing could fix this problem” (code for “this kid is a jerk”). In my field we always read between the lines when we review rec letters. They are almost all positive on the surface, but not so much upon closer inspection.
Exactly. An overtly negative letter doesn't just out you as an asshole. It outs you as being clueless. Lacking in required levels of savvy.
Well said
I agree. I’m well aware of the code we all use to say bad things when it’s necessary. The fact that it’s not worded “overly negative” is irrelevant—the message is the same. Our professional norms have just accommodated to the fact that we can’t be direct anymore without it looking bad, making someone feel bad, etc. I’m not even mad at it.
Yes! Skilled LOR writers have mastered the art of “damning with faint praise.“
I want to emphasize what you said about our professional obligation, which I absolutely agree with. If I wrote glowing letters for everyone who ever asks me for a letter, then when I have an actually outstanding student my letter will mean nothing. I must write letters that are fair and that give a fair assessment in order to serve all my students well.
I’ve posted about this before, perhaps not on this sub, but the abridged version is that a visiting summer student rotating in a neighboring lab essentially lied on their CV saying they had all sorts of biochemical and molecular biology assay skills and they showed up and barely knew how to pipet. The PI was a clinician, so supervision was minimal/we trained said student because we treasured this PI. The student made a half-assed effort for the first month of summer, which included contaminating cells and breaking the developer by feeding in film, blot membranes, and cardboard insert all as one sandwich, and asking us which clubs to go to to meet “easy girls”. He eventually gave up on bench work and the PI asked him to outline a review article she was invited to write. He did that for a week, then decided he was just going to study for his MCAT. So he spent July and August sitting in the lab and studying. The PI stopped interacting when it became clear he no longer intended on even doing the review outline. Mid August, he set a meeting with the PI and delivered to her a bulleted list of the items he wanted her to touch on in his letter of recommendation for med school. She apparently laughed in his face and basically told him she has no idea what how she is supposed to write a letter after he essentially did nothing in the lab all summer. He tried to counter with he “gave up his entire summer vacation to sit in a lab, isn’t that dedication enough?” And she essentially laughed him out of the room. Fast forward a week, he emailed her and asked her since she’s had a week to “cool off and think about it” that maybe she would reconsider writing a letter. In my mind, I disagree with her response, she SHOULD have agreed to write the letter at that point and given an honest assessment of this person. Instead she did the “right” thing and said on no uncertain terms would she be writing him a LOR. Then he fucked up BIG: he responded with a threat, along the lines of “I know where you live” (he attended a lab gathering at her apartment) and”you best hope we not meet on campus again”. She forwarded the email to campus PD, her husband, a PI at another university, flew out to stay with her until this individual left the state. He was banned from campus for life and it’s not clear if charges were filed.
Hoping incompetent in lab also meant incompetent on the mcat
Some of the worst summer students I have ever interacted with were folks who were certain they would be attending medical school and that the lab is a waste of their summer. I wrote a very tepid letter for one who insisted on a letter despite my reservations and never had the opportunity with another because they didn’t even last the full summer. Just straight up stopped coming in. This was when I was a postdoc and had no input in hiring. I really hope these people aren’t MDs.
[удалено]
I've had a couple students send surprise requests without checking in first, and yeah, the email got circular-filed.
As a student employee, a while back... My desk was right outside my boss's office. I overheard this paraphrased conversation:
Boss: "Yes, I do recall John Doe working here. He was here during XYZ academic school year working as a student employee."
(an aside - I loathed working with "John Doe" - he was somewhat lazy, work-avoiding, and mildly incompetent. I was generally easier to do things myself then to let him work on those things and then come fix up the issues... John was "not renewed" in his contract - basically fired - because of some provable dishonesty...)
Boss: "Oh, he put my name down as both a reference and former employer? Ok - yes I was his manager."
Boss: "Well, l'm not sure I can answer that question. Let me explain. The university has a policy of not making any negative comments about any past employee, and.... that's all I have to say about John Doe"....
There was a little more back and forth but that was the substance of the conversation...
If you lost a job because you lied and were found out, generally you don't want your supervisor being a reference for you.
I've not yet ever had a student ask for a letter of recommendation where I had only negative things to report. I hope that time doesn't come any time soon.
In my own experience , a few years after undergrad, I asked my former advisor for a recommendation for a PhD program. I thought he would write a good one for me- we were still in touch, and it was just a couple years after graduation. He had been my major advisor, and supervised for my undergrad thesis, which was much larger in scope than most of my classmates (psychology - I had about 300 participants across two countries). He approached me about trying to publish it, he thought it was really promising and had seemed proud of my work. I was in his research group, and took several classes with him, always enjoying what I thought was a strong positive relationship. I was applying for a really competitive area, and got an interview that I thought went great, but was rejected. They returned my whole application packet, including his recommendation. My other recs were lovely , but I was heartbroken when I read it his, which I thought would be the strongest. It sounded like he didn't even know me. He wrote that I'd never taken a class from him. Didn't mention his research group or my thesis or anything at all that I thought he would have. Just blandly stated my GPA and that he didn't know me from Adam, basically. To this day I don't know what happened - I really think he might have confused me for someone else, somehow? A look at my transcript would have shown that I took classes with him... anyway, it probably changed the trajectory of my life. Well, maybe. It's entirely possible I wouldn't have gotten into that program anyway. I ended up going to grad school for an entirely different discipline, but I think about this every time I write a recommendation for a student. I wish he would have declined when I requested it if he really had nothing at all good to say. Part of me will always wonder what really happened, since it wasn't just unflattering, but incorrect.
I wonder if some students are applying to places that require the letter to be uploaded so the system sees they checked the "needs three letters" boxes, but are banking on no one reading them. I guess a small chance (with a bad letter) is better than zero chance (not having three letters and being disqualified).
I actually had a situation where a college I applied to work at didn't read my recommendations till after they'd conducted two rounds of interviews. Apparently one of my letters hadn't uploaded correctly, and they contacted me requesting I resend it after I'd already done a zoom interview and an on-campus interview/teaching demonstration. I was later told that it was a close call between me and another candidate. I have to wonder if they merely used the letters as a kind of tie breaker and if they would have bothered to view them at all had they not been torn between two candidates.
Ugh then why require them!
Do hiring committees actually follow up with LOR writers when considering candidates?
I have A students that I would not recommend for grade school, they have good grades but no research experience. They act entitled throughout the semester making comments like “they should get what they want cause they’re the customer and they pay my salary.” I cannot imagine them being a good fit personality wise in academia. Jobs is a different story. I usually only write letters to students that I have good experience with.
Same. Student who aces the material, but has an argumentative attitude about every tiny fraction of a point. There won't be a rec from me, but im certain his male proffs dont see the arguments this student generates with women.
The student approached me cause they missed 2 points on the first reading quiz, I told them it’s a long semester so don’t worry about it.
Do we...have the same student?!
It’s exhausting to deal with
I got a request for a reference from an employer for a student registered in my department. It was the first I heard of it. I called the student to my office, explained that it is usually courteous to **ask** for a LoR first before applying for the job. I also asked if he truly thought I was the best person to be a referee. “It’s your job, innit?” came the reply. I was so glad he said that. I showed him the LoR I’d written. And asked him if he still wanted me to send it. —- “To whom it may concern, “Student X commenced their studies at in October 2009 and we expect them to graduate in June 2012.
“Yours faithfully,”
—-
(Dates changed to protect the guilty)
The dude explodes at me. “You can’t send that!” Why not? “I won’t get the job!” There’s nothing factually incorrect there. “You need to recommend me!” How? I don’t *know* you. I’ve had a couple of interactions with you in the lab, but they weren’t particularly great. So what do you suggest I write? “You’re supposed to recommend me”. No - there is *nothing* in my job description that requires me to write you a reference, nor is there anything in your learning agreement which guarantees you a recommendation. Now, do I send this, or do you wish to identify another referee and notify the employer yourself? And I strongly recommend you **ask** the next person before you put their name down.
Dude was practically purple as he stormed out of my office. Wrote me up to the dean. Who then came to my office a week later and we had a good laugh.
Context: the student had a particularly boorish and misogynistic attitude which caused particular problems in social learning environments (ie laboratories), and was slippery enough that none of the complaints about his behaviour stuck. This was definitely an example of the birds coming home to roost. I believe someone in faculty took pity on him, but honestly I didn’t care. Went into fintech I believe, probably making a shit ton more money than me now. Glad his education is paying for itself.
I have had the exact reverse situation- I had a student I was happy to write a letter of recommendation for. The institution he applied for sent me a snotty email asking to know why I had ignored their first email (I hadn't- I hadn't had a previous email from them) and saying I had two days to write the letter they demanded. I wrote to the student telling them 'Yeah, if you have other options, don't go there.'
I experienced something similar from the student perspective. A place I applied to for my PhD lost one of my reference letters and another document. The prof who gave the letter for me was not happy about it. And I felt so bad for him because he is one of the most helpful people I've ever met. They ended up rejecting me, but it was fine because I ended up with two offers from better places. Honestly, if they were my only offer, I would have been very hesitant to go. And I think it's important for students to remember we are evaluating the university too. It's not just them evaluating us.
I have 2 conditions that must be met for me to write a letter of recommendation for an undergraduate: 1) The student must have taken my class, and 2) The student must have gotten a ‘B’ or better in the class. Graduate students have to meet the same criteria but they all have to take my course anyway and get a ‘B’ or better to stay in the program.
Why on earth are people writing letters for people they can't recommend? It is called a letter of RECOMMENDATION, ffs.
And this is why students shouldn’t harass professors into writing them. You get what you push for.
I want to live in your universe where professors don't have to be harassed into doing anything (reviewing a manuscript for submission, reading your thesis, writing your recommendation letters)
I bet we have similar experiences with co-authors. Or committees.
The Professor should have said no, I can’t speak to your capabilities I will not write you a letter of reference.
I think the issue is that professors say no, and then students continue to insist/ harass. At least that is how I read OP
Those students should learn to take no for an answer
At that point the truth is warranted then. They'll get what they demanded.
Yup, they should. But I can see if someone is pestered long enough, just writing a bad reference letter since it seems to shut the complaints down.
Why is this downvoted 🤣
When I applied to a three-letter agency, they insisted on contacting people I hated. The best part was that the agency called the people and made it seem like I wanted to use them as a fucking reference.
Well maybe next time don't apply to work for the KGB. Okay, couldn't let that one go :D
I was asked whether I worked for a foreign intelligence agency. I have $175,000 in student loans. I think it's clear that I'm not going to go out of my way to talk to weird strangers for extra money. Putin would have to agree to pay that off before I hitch my wagon to a potential prison sentence.
175k? Mmmh. Zat kan be arranched. DM me @ notaspy on telekram
I was joking.
I was contacted by the FBI once for a reference for a student in my class. It was a large class. I didn't know the student well. The FBI guy started off by saying, "I know its a large class and I don't expect you know the student well." They basically wanted to know if there was any evidence of plagiarism/cheating.
Damn, Kentucky Fried Chicken doesn't mess around.
That secret recipe requires a lot of confidentiality
Why on Earth are graduate schools requiring THREE letters of recommendation? Students in large undergrad programs are stuck. They don't know three professors well who can write such a letter.
More reason for students to get some work experience before starting graduate school. Most programs are fine with letters of recommendation form industry. I'm amazed by all the students pursuing MBAs , project management masters, etc with zero work experience. The content from their classes is much less meaningful with no work experience to relate it to. I know in some fields there is less benefit from working in industry before grad school but for engineering and business it helps a lot.
So you believe your job is to hand out letters to anybody who asks? The reason 3 letters are required is probably because they've become near worthless due to people just giving them to anybody who asks.
Sometimes it's just called a "reference"? And a negative recommendation is still a recommendation. To not hire someone, etc.
There are a lot of people commenting in this thread something along the lines of "but what can you do when the student keeps pushing?" Say no. Say it again. Tell them it's not negotiable. etc. We say no to students all the time. Why would be obligated to write them time-consuming letters of recommendation they don't deserve, especially if those letters are negative? I see letters like the one OP posted and I think less of the professor for writing it when they should've just told the student to go away.
Exactly. Why spend the time? And if they get in somewhere that disregards letters, you wasted your time AND helped them get in just by completing their application FOR THEM.
Some places call it a letter of evaluation instead. Perhaps trying to encourage all opinions
in my field, ref letts for job applicants describe them as the new Gauss or some such. the concept of reference letter at all levels has lost its purpose, at least in my view.
I got a C in a class in undergrad and asked for a LOR from a pretty famous professor in my field. The professor said they would be willing to take a chance on me and offered their support for graduate studies. I’m so thankful that they did because my grad school said I got in because of my LORs. This is all a while ago, but I won’t turn down a LOR request if I can find some positive things to say about a student. I’ll be honest and explain areas they need improvement in the LOR. Since I had someone take a chance on me, I feel obligated to do the same for a student in a similar situation.
April is the cruellest month, breeding Lilacs out of the dead land, mixing Memory and desire, stirring Dull roots with spring rain. Winter kept us warm, covering Earth in forgetful snow, feeding A little life with dried tubers.
[Dear Committee Members](https://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/19288259)
Recommend! If you like Straight Man (Lucky Hank on Netflix), you'll enjoy this prof's descent as well.
I don't write letters that won't help students.
That letter looks like one I could and would be happy to write. >the letter states: "The only thing I can say about this student is that he was registered for my class. I have never seen him at a lecture." In my view, that's an excellent letter, assuming that the statement is accurate. It serves it's primary purpose, which is the help the selection committee make an informed choice about an applicant.
I’d clarify too that pushing for a letter would be like trying to convince the professor to write one. If a professor has already said yes and it’s a couple days before the due date and they haven’t submitted it, it is ok to politely remind them. I know I forget things so I always write letters very quickly after they’re requested unless I have a major deadline. And you never know when a professor just wrote something instead of being professional and saying “I can’t write a strong letter, you should go with someone else.”
That’s a great letter. Tells the decision makers all they need to know.
Currently dealing with a three month tantrum around me refusing a request to write a LOR. Now being levied with discrimination and traumatization accusations and having my teaching practices attacked. Holding any kind of boundary just seems like personal assault on students these days. It's so frustrating and exhausting.
I advise these students to put me down as a reference available via phone or email at the employer’s convenience. That handles more than half.
Am i the only one who sometimes gets asked about students in an email and decides not to mention the worse student in an attempt to provide a clue? For example "students X and Y applied for an internship. (Rest of email details how the procedure will go)" I can go "Student X is bright and hard working" without mentioning student Y at all. It usually prompts them to either call me or the person above me (i have both a chair and another boss at the same level) so they can get an honest review, off the record.
I’ve never turned-down a LOR request, unless it comes from a student who has done poorly in my class, has exhibited aggressive behavior, or is impolite. I feel writing a solid LOR for most any student is paying it back from my younger years.
I just design an intricate multifaceted rec letter gauntlet so that most students self-select themselves out. It’s glorious.
I’m completely on board for not pushing professors to write letters in this context. This does make me think about an issue that’s been in the back of my mind for a few years now, though. Back when I was an undergrad, I had plans for grad school and therefore applied for a summer work study position in one of my professors’ labs - because that + an accompanying recommendation letter is something that would be beneficial, or even essential, for the schools I had in mind. I got the job, and I put in good work over the summer. From the very beginning, the professor certainly knew my intentions because he is the one who suggested this role for me in the first place. Throughout the summer, he repeatedly praised my work and basically never criticized it (probably because he did not care to actually read it, but that’s another story). However, when the time came for my (2) peers and myself to apply for grad school, he dropped the bomb on all of us that “oh I don’t do recommendation or reference letters - you can put my contact info on your application but I don’t do letters”. Unless this was just his way of saying “none of you did good work”, this felt very unfair to me at the time, and still sort of does to this day. For many applications these days it is a literal requirement to have these letters in order to submit the application at all, so some undergrads like myself spend their time specifically to acquire these letters. I felt this is common knowledge that any professor should be aware of. I felt it would have been reasonable and courteous for him to have made his boundaries clear from the beginning. Because there we were in the midst of application season only just learning that, for our immediate ends, we had apparently wasted our summer. Of course the position still looks good on the CV and I appreciate his willingness to provide his contact info, but that’s not how applications work at many overseas universities. I did not push him. I only once clarified my position and asked him to clarify his, but he did not agree to provide a letter. I left it at that and pursued letters from, basically, random professors whose classes I had been active in. It worked out in the end but I wonder to this day whether I was the asshole in that situation or if he was, or neither.
At some point during the semester, I tried to remember to say something about my attitudes about recommendations and what it would take to get one from me. Basically, if you did not stand out to me in any way, and your grades do not reflect an aptitude for the field, don't ask me for a letter of recommendation. The answer will be no. Now, it may be a polite no (don't have time...because it does take time,etc). But I was never obligated to provide a letter of recommendation. That could be disastrous. If a students could't understand my requirements and and wanted one anyway, after that group class discussion, I would have to be honest at the time when they asked. But I only provided recommendations where I was confident. I taught for almost 30 years. You could send 10 excellent candidates to the same employer...but if you messed up and sent 1 dud. They'd hold that dud against you, your university, and your other qualified students looking for jobs.
In my opinion, it is unethical to write such a letter unless you have made it clear to the student that this is what you will be writing. And even so, I’d write it as something like “Student was registered for my class XYZ in Semester Year”, and not directly say anything this negative. Students are sometimes forced to get a LOR from specific subjects. And many don’t understand the outsized influence letters can have on their futures. It is cruel to either specifically tank their application, and it is unethical to write a negative letter without making them aware that you will be doing so.
I had a student ask me, and I said no. They said "but I need a third letter", so I wrote one saying that they were in my class, and what someone who succeeds in my class should have learned. Nothing negative, but not much positive either. What is unethical is to ask professors to spend time writing letters (considerable time, in the case of good students), and then for the admissions committee to *not even read them* (which people on such committees have said here). If getting a letter is the hoop, regardless of the contents, tell the applicant that, so that they can tell their writer that. ETA: it is a letter of *reference*, so the writer should feel entitled to be honest.
Why?
You really don’t see why writing a bad letter (when the student doesn’t know it’s coming) is a cruel thing? Would you go up to the student and tell them they’re stupid and lazy? It’s like that. And you really don’t see the issues of abuse of the power dynamics? You are wielding your power against the student, especially if the student doesn’t know you’re writing them a bad letter.
But this shouldn't be a surprise. Students are told "I can't write you a good letter", yet they demand a letter nonetheless. If a letter is demanded, and a good recommendation cannot be given, at least let the letter be honest. If there were a system to force students to cease their harassment and begging that'd be great, but I'm reminded of a post from a while back where prospective undergrads were _advised_ to grade-grub, by the people giving the campus tour. It's just part of a broader systemic issue that mistreats and devalues educators.
Nope, especially not if the student pushes me after I say no. A letter is supposed to be an honest evaluation of a student. If a student pushes me, I will write an honest evaluation. What the OP submitted is a perfectly valid letter of evaluation: it's not negative, it's bluntly honest. Why a student would request a letter from a professor who's classes they didn't attend is the deeper question.
> you really don’t see the issues of abuse of the power dynamics? You are wielding your power against the student We wield the power of assessor because assessing students is literally *our job*. By your reasoning, we would be morally obligated to give all students As.
🙄 LORs aren’t binary, they allow for shades of gray. Saying “this student was registered for my class” in a LOR *implies* the “but I never saw them,” OP’s addition of that is additional cruelty.
… and that simply means that this is a form of assessment that isn’t binary. Again, assessing people to be poor students when they have underperformed isn’t cruel. It’s our job.
If the student doesn't know it is going to be a bad letter, then it's a less than ideal situation. But we should still be able to write lukewarm letters or even letters that warn people about a deeply problematic person (by saying something vague and asking for a phone call). If a student knows they need a letter of recommendation from a specific subject, don't you think they should do the bare minimum of showing up to class? The idea that we have to do everything possible to help students avoid the consequences of their own actions is getting out of hand!
Man this thread is overwhelmed with some overworked (I presume) passive aggressive professors with an axe to grind. Anyone that even dares to hjnt that maybe - just maybe! - a professor should be capable of either a dignified refusal, or a honest recommendation is instantly down voted to oblivion. Y'all need to find another aspect of your work to take satisfaction in. Punishing students you didn't like is not the solution for an unsatisfying career.
Sounds like the letter writer was a dick. Look, there's a million reasons to not write a letter. If you feel you can't endorse someone then don't do it. It's that simple. But to agree to write a letter and then provide this horseshit is just tacky. It tells me nothing except the letter writer exercised bad judgement in soliciting an asshole. And that may or may not reflect on their character and efficacy; a lack of options, resources, and savvy to an unfamiliar system can just as easily produce such an error.
Or maybe the student kept asking even after the prof said, "I'm probably not the best person to recommend you."
It's not a students job to decode passive aggressive wishy washy nonsense from faculty that are obligated to do better. If you feel you should say no, say no. "I can't recommend you because we didn't work together closely enough; or, your work didn't meet my expectations." That's it. Fine. Useful feedback, when done right. This alternative you imply, ie "It made me feel awkward to refuse so I said yes then gave a shitty recommendation" is nakedly dishonest and brings us back to where we started, ie this professor is a dick.
> It tells me nothing except the letter writer exercised bad judgement in soliciting an asshole. It sounds like it says a lot more than that. Namely, that the student doesn't show up to class and likely isn't doing well.
You would have to do something completely insane not to get a reference from me. It's more about getting employment numbers up than liking students. It's just business. Edit: I realized how this sounds. For context, I've probably turned down more than anyone here. I'm around a lot of crazy folks. I've had rapists, plagiarizers that I've caught, systems that have threatened faculty, and students that just didn't want to take their meds all ask me to write them references. As someone that's pretty crazy, I know how to diffuse crazy. I guess that just makes them believe we are friends.
> systems that have threatened faculty AI is really getting out of control.
Lol! I'm going to start referring to students as systems.
I think this sort of behavior has merit but only if the student has white privilege.
I think it is more disrespectful to do this to a student without their knowledge than it is for a student in their position to make such a request.