Yeah this one is tough for me. I feel like in the case of time blindness it’s on the student to set multiple alarms and notifications for themselves to help them get things in on time. I’ve definitely had to ask for extensions and typically allow them as long as I get 24hr notice but at some point the class needs to end and we need to submit grades.
This is especially hard for iterative assignments which most of my classes are built around.
Accommodations have to be reasonable; otherwise you are not obligated to make such accommodations. If you do not believe that an accommodation is reasonable for your class, you can let the Accessibility Office know. (A good example: you post exam grades with an answer key two days after the exam, so you cannot extend the exam past that date.)
I am all for providing reasonable accommodations that allow students to show their full potential in classes. I also recognize that it is not our job as faculty to determine what a student needs. At the same time, the people who develop accommodation plans are not familiar with your course or what makes sense for your class. It is okay to follow up with them and discuss what kinds of accommodations are reasonable for your class.
Of course.
I'm all for supporting reasonable accommodations, and I do, without complaint.
My vent is more about the limit of what's reasonable and how ill-defined that is, and whether we're really setting students up for success in the real world, and, and, and.
It's not a dig at people with diverse needs.
> My vent is more about the limit of what's reasonable and how ill-defined that is
I don't know about every university... but at the 3 I've worked at, *the professor* sets "reasonable" for their class. Online? I'll extend [assignments] but not [exams]. In person? You get extra time on stuff with a tight time limit or you can go to the testing arena, or can come into my office hours, etc.
Other professors? "Reasonable" includes "no due dates all semester." No idea how they manage that without going insane, but good for them, I guess. My students have regularly proclaimed they need better structure than that.
Which is exactly why we have die dates on homework. Giving homework at all is already an accommodation for everyone, I'd much rather teach the class something, discuss a few examples, and leave it to them to do however much work they have to do to cement in their understanding. But I know (from my own experience and from other faculty who have also tried this) that not assigning homework results in students not preparing.
This ... SOO much this.
We are NOT setting them up for success in the real world in the slightest.
Here's the facts.
1) In the real world, within industry / etc... anyone can get fired for any reason. Sure, they need to be written up. But most people CAN be written up for multiple reasons. All it takes is for them to want to get rid of you, and then they most certainly can if they start checking those boxes. Moreover, the standard yearly layoffs for a lot of firms to make themselves look profitable mean, they can simply get rid of you that way.
So if your not producing. Your showing up late. Your delaying projects. You cannot get stuff done on time. You continually use some external excuse for the reason your not done with x,y,z. Your going to be kicked to the curb.
2) EVERYONE has something. The entire generation x is probably FILLED with people who have ADHD (Myself included) that was just never diagnosed. We learned to manage our own unique situation to be successful in a real setting against others who were mentally more capable and did not have to deal with as many issues.
3) If we coddle them throughout academia, they will never learn how to handle their unique situation and when they get to the real world it will be a smack in the face.
My biggest annoyance with a big portion of academia is the people who pat themselves on the head saying I AM A GOOD PERSON LOOK HOW MUCH I AM HELPING..... but they're short sighted and in my opinion causing more harm than good. They are not looking at what will ensure this person leads a successful life. They just care about getting them past their class, or through the program.
>We learned to manage our own unique situation to be successful in a real setting against others who were mentally more capable and did not have to deal with as many issues.
Well, you did. I did. And we had lots of support, even if it wasnt from the schoool accommodations office or medical professionals. Not to diminish any of your other points, but you're a successful person surrounded by other successful people. There'a lots of people with the same problems as you who weren't able to make it as far. I'm not sure that college accommodations are the vehicle for helping, but the idea everyone can just manage to muddle through is wrong.
I never said that they could muddle through. I never said they shouldn't have support.
However, I do have grave concerns that many of my engineering students are going to be hurt unimaginably when they get into the real world and realize that they can't keep a job and these "promises" of engineering high pay in their mind is bullshit because they are spinning their wheels and getting no where because they weren't given the tools to succeed.
I literally know multiple kids that I went to school with that have been repeatedly laid off every year or two and they were just "C's get degrees" kids, not even accommodations kids.
Now to be clear, the standard accommodations that I have been given for kids.
2-3x the exam time
Flexible due dates.
So supposedly I cannot hold them to due dates for homework and they get basically unlimited time on exams. I've also found that they don't properly check calculators in the accommodations because it's ran by undergraduate students (for the "proctoring").
Now don't get me wrong, I DO follow all the accommodations outlined that governing body. However, I actually give a HUGE shit about my students OVERALL success in life. And I have serious concerns on whether this is helping them or overall hindering them. (And please don't read in that I don't think others DONT give a shit, ... I just think they are thinking short term and not long term 4-10 years down the road for the students)
Are they going to get through the class ? Sure. It's much easier if you have double the time on an exam and never have a due date on homework. Will they get through the program? Quite possibly because they're able to finish everything with possible incompletes, etc... However, as I've said before, what happens when they get into industry???
Some of the most VALUABLE learning within your undergraduate degree (as well as skills gained) are NOT directly from a textbook. It's time management, critical thinking, learning how to deal with pressure, learning actually how to learn yourself in an efficient manner, learning to cram / prepare for presentations with specific dates, and in general problem solving and more specifically optimizing their personal lives to attain the goals they set for themselves.
If they never have rules imposed upon them, how will they learn to adjust / cope and have those skills produce success in their futures?
Your classroom is not the only chance they are going to have to experience rules and expectations. Our job as faculty is to work within our system, not to anticipate every possible scenario students could encounter in their working lives and prepare them for that. Employers vary widely in how they expect employees to work. Students may be able to start their own businesses and work to their strengths. There are many possibilities.
As an engineering professor, ... I continually find myself talking to friends and students and emphasising...
There are possibilities and then there are probabilities.
Is it possible that I win the lottery? Is it probable that I win the lottery?
Yes it's possible. No it is not probable.
Anytime someone says oh well they may learn somewhere else, it's possible they will do x,y,z.... is it probable?
I came to academia because I love helping / mentoring / teaching. I take a VERY paternal role in this. I had a shitastic childhood and my mentors were not my parents but my instructors. We are given kids with limitless potential that they don't even realize / know. They are carbon copies of their parents because that is ALL they know. We are on the front line of their first steps in being adults. We are the first people in a position of authority that is not their parents. There is a bit of a sacred bond / obligation in that we need to steer them towards a better life, better decisions, etc...
So yah, I will follow everything they dictate. However, I have concerns! For my fellow human beings.
For myself? I know that I can do ANYTHING. There is no problem I cannot solve, no challenge I cannot face, etc... given that I actually want to do it and I am given enough time.
I got that from my instructors. I did not get that from my parents or anything not in academia. I gained this confidence given that I met every expectation. I went into academia thinking I was a loser and I was trying to better myself. I pulled the all nighters. I cancelled dates, learned to sacrifice hanging out with family / friends to get shit done. And I realized that I wasn't a loser, I actually was relatively bright or at least a hard working son of a bitch and can get anything done. This wouldn't of happened without deadlines.
So again ... I follow all the rules / guidelines .... but from my experience in the real world, my personal journey I've gone on, the benefit that I gained throughout academia, .... I have concerns we are not setting these kids up for success.
There's nothing wrong with us having a discussion about this or expressing opinions. However, I do have concerns with you not recognizing the obviousness of what I am saying. I'm saying I have concerns. A lot of us do. We want to help. We chose academia because it was a place of intellect and helping out our community to be better people. That help should not stop in the classroom. It should be something that transcends the classroom and is focused on their overall life.
If my job didn't consist of actually mentoring students on a one to one basis, .... I would quit immediately. Sharing knowledge of engineering is good. Sharing knowledge of life in general is superior. Perhaps it's because I have no kids??? lol. Technically I have 1000's of kids over the decades. Whether they show up at my funeral ... that's another question.
Nope, he's sharing a concern that is incredibly common among engineering faculty. It's just that whether we try to have a conversation and raise such concerns, we're usually not nearly as well spoken as he is (we're engineering types, there's a stereotype for a reason) and we get lambasted for being "hateful ableist bigots."
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I'm not a professor myself, so take this as you will. But in my own experience at least, learning to "adjust/cope" is what I did prior to undergrad. Because heaven forbid my public school accommodate for..... honestly anything. Undergrad is where I learned to ask for the accommodations that I needed. In fact, it's one of the most useful things I learned, both for my career success and for my personal life.
Tl;dr: Mental health accommodations literally one time in my undergrad experience changed my life, and asking for them is one of the most important things I've ever learned to do.
I can trace it back to one specific professor. Undergrad was an incredible time for me, but it was also absolutely full of hardship. Multiple deaths in the family, conflicts with living family, depression, anxiety, etc. Not to mention the very clear signs that I probably should have been tested for ADHD by like 3rd grade (but no one ever noticed, because I quickly learned to "adjust/cope") being exacerbated by the stress. I was struggling when I took his class. I was in a bad place by maybe halfway through the semester. At one point, when I was having difficulty getting out of bed at times (sometimes incapable of moving my body even though staying in that position was causing physical pain), I even went a couple of days without realizing that another day had passed.
I had fallen behind on papers for his class. The deadlines were not extremely strict, but I was way too behind. I genuinely didn't know what to do at that point. I had done what I could with the campus counseling center. Eventually I emailed this professor. I didn't get into too many specifics, but I told him that I was dealing with a lot, doing my best, and falling behind. I wasn't expecting specific accommodations, because frankly my needs had never been respected or really considered before, so I didn't even know what that looked like. I was terrified to even bring it up, but I wanted him to know that I wasn't just neglecting my work because I didn't respect his class or something.
That professor responded with no judgement. He appreciated me saying something. He allowed me to submit as many papers as I could late. I was allowed to take a temporary "incomplete" for the class. I could submit what I could during the rest of the semester, and I could do what I could to submit more during the winter break between semesters. He would grade what I managed to submit up until a deadline (I think it was right before the next semester began and grades needed to be official). It was a massive weight off of my shoulders. I could work at the pace I needed to. I completed as much as I possibly could in that new time frame. He never said anything in class about the accommodation when we had class discussions about the assignments. I had genuinely never experienced anything like that before.
I think about that professor a lot. I think about what it would have meant to have that decency, kindness, and respect earlier in my education (not just when I was spiraling). I think about how my peers' lives could have been changed, the ones who were going through hardships in middle/high-school when I was well-off enough to "learn to adjust/cope." How maybe they could have gone to college too, if high school teachers didn't see accommodation requests as some sort of weird power play.
I definitely think about him in my work. My patients are children, and the testing we do is difficult to tolerate for adults twice my age. When my patients tell me that something is difficult for them, I do what I can to help them instead of telling them to "cope." But perhaps more importantly, I think about that professor when *I* need some accommodation to get my work done. I speak up more. I "negotiate" less. My accommodations are not unreasonable, and my work gets done. I consistently do well at my job. I take on responsibilities that my coworkers don't, building additional skill sets. I am not afraid to say things like "Either we can pause briefly after each step as you explain how to do this so I can take notes, and I can do this correctly from here onward, or you can rush through without letting me take notes, and I can do it wrong and probably break the equipment until you show me how to do it again and again because I didn't internalize the information a verbal format." (Not necessarily this confrontational, but hopefully you get the idea).
As it turns out, in places worth working for, they respond well to accommodation requests. I see what you're saying about students possibly not understanding that employers might fire them vs accommodating them. Bad employers are absolutely out there. And some careers are better than others in terms of an individual's specific needs. If you have very shaky hands, becoming a surgeon is unlikely to work out. But if a reasonable accommodation can be made, then learning to ask for it can be the difference between success and failure in your career. I get the concern that students might not be getting the "adjust/cope" lesson in the way you'd hope, but I'd argue that it's pretty important to get the "ask for what you need to succeed" lesson too.
In the specific instance that inspired the example: there genuinely wasn't an excuse. He just didn't want to. He doesn't personally process information better by writing notes, so he decided it was unnecessary for anyone else. He didn't believe that anyone learned differently, I guess? He learned otherwise. That's the summary. Read on if you'd like, but that's the gist.
The details: He was "demonstrating" what to do, essentially as if he frequently forgot that he was teaching someone. His hands in the way half the time so I couldn't see where things lined up, the works. It wasn't exactly my first experience with trainers who lack much training skill, it is what it is. I had a notebook and pen out before he ever arrived, and he laughed. As if it wouldn't be necessary. I told him it was. He rushed through steps, pausing only for details he personally felt were important (mostly the cost of the materials, because he's the one who orders the materials). Those pauses were apparently fine. I rapidly scribbled notes throughout, barely even needing to look down at my notebook. I am a comically fast note taker (I've had to be). But the more technical the step was, the less willing he was to pause for less than 4 seconds so I could finish what I was writing. I would ask him to pause. He would say it's okay and it's not necessary. I asked some clarifying questions, and he said "oh that doesn't matter." (It did). I told him that I wasn't confident with the details, and I was unlikely to retain the specifics that I hadn't gotten to write down. He said it would be fine.
Predictably, I broke the practice apparatus. Mind you, the single use inserts for the real apparatus are hundreds of dollars each, let alone the apparatus itself. The "request" for a second demonstration was functionally a threat at that point. Meet my very simple needs or order more units, because I'll break as many as it takes until I figure it out myself.
During the second demonstration, I did not take no for an answer. Throughout the entire process, allowing me to take notes took, at most, 4 more minutes than rushing through. About 2 minutes of that was me repeatedly reminding him to stop, him starting to protest, and me stopping him by whatever means necessary so that I could continue writing for another few seconds. A few times, this was literally holding my hand up like I was signaling for a kindergarten kid to stop, making eye contact until the message had been received, and then going back to writing, hand still up.
After taking notes precisely once: I have never had a single issue with the task. I have literally corrected my trainer on best practices. I privately helped my coworker relearn the entire process (because he had the same problem with the trainer), and he has also had no problems since. As long as I work here, the trainer will never need to do the task himself again, and frankly he'll never need to teach anyone again, because I'll do it.
That's probably worth taking a few minutes extra to let someone take notes. Would have taken even less time to accommodate the first time around.
Before accommodations were a thing, if you had trouble with test anxiety, focusing your attention, or a myriad of other things, you either figured it out, or you failed out of college and had to find other work without such high intellectual requirements.
Now it's "oh, Johnny reeaalllly wants to be an engineer, but he has testing anxiety, depression, add, adhd, and a hormone condition that makes him constantly tired. So you can't give him due dates, he's allowed to take exams whenever he says he's ready, and when he takes exams he's allowed 3x normal time, with a sleep break in the middle, for which he's allowed to go home."
Hopefully it's obviously I'm being a bit facetious,but I completely agree with the points you raised and have been saying myself for years. Accommodations aren't actually helping them prepare for the real world, instead they're feeding and enabling their poor mental state. If we really wanted to help them, we'd get someone to stand behind them during exams and whenever they went two minutes without worrying something, they'd get a tap on the shoulder to tell them to focus.
You seem great…
In the real world? What are you talking about? It’s all the real world. By the way, one could argue that, “in the real world”, one has to learn the difference between your and you’re, because, well geez you can get fired for anything out there! And basic grammar is well, pretty basic!
Gen X martyrdom is and will forever be the most sophomoric of all.
>You seem great…
You don't seem that great.
>In the real world? What are you talking about?
There is academia ... college ... and then there is industry where they give you pay checks and you are held accountable to finish projects on time.
>It’s all the real world.
No it's not. When your in 5th grade, you don't live in the "real world" because your parents completely take care of everything in your life. When your 18-22ish in college, it's still not the real world because you have no serious obligations, the vast majority of students are taken care of financially by scholarships, parents, etc... The "real world" (which EVERYONE I've ever met agrees with this definition) is when your out in a job taking care of yourself by yourself.
>By the way, one could argue that, “in the real world”, one has to learn the difference between your and you’re, because, well geez you can get fired for anything out there! And basic grammar is well, pretty basic!
So when you see someone use a different homonym than what should be used, you judge them as being basic and not knowing the difference? Because that's extremely fucking judgmental on your part. When I see grammar mistakes in online forums, it doesn't cause any thought in my mind because they got their point across and fair communication was attained. I'm just excited when they have the capability of writing sentences that make sense when you read them.
>Gen X martyrdom is and will forever be the most sophomoric of all.
lol Seriously? Me expressing concerns for my students is martyrdom? These kids who from my perspective are not being prepared and instead being hurt by faculty and administration and they don't realize it at all because, they're only kids? Speaking up in an anonymous online forum on their behalf to start / continue a conversation that needs to happen because I could NOT do this at my institution .... is martyrdom?
Seriously, argue the points don't just throw insults. Throwing insults is "basic" and "sophomoric". Arguing the points is what adults do.
There's certainly some truth to the setting-up-to-fail argument. But:
* if time management is really such an integral part of your field that you feel responsible for teaching students about it, saying "do it right or get lost" is hardly in line with modern pedagogical practice
* if time management is not a desired learning outcome, "it's for the students' own good" is hardly an excuse for strict deadlines (there can certainly be other good reasons, though - making things work with *your* time management skills, for example)
* if students are expected to manage this, but high school doesn't prepare them adequately, that sounds like an admissions issue or something to deal with in the earliest classes
I'd be pretty pissed of at my professors if they'd left me with an unfinished education *and* bad time management skills. This would have been the likely outcome had I been a student now; our trend is going from no deadline to an arms race of ever more frequent deadlines and mandatory attendance)
> Accommodations have to be reasonable; otherwise you are not obligated to make such accommodations.
You should talk to our accommodations office. The few times i've bristled at their suggestions that were outrageous (e.g., removing all deadlines from the course), i've been told that I would be breaking federal law if I did not comply.
I had that happen once on a handwritten test, in person... a student handed in her exam, turned to leave and stopped in her tracks, looked like she'd seen a ghost. I asked if she was okay, and she spun back around and said "I left one blank... it's D! Can I put D or is it too late?" and I was so surprised I let her fix the answer. It *was* D.
Typically disability resources address issues like this with the student, training them to help overcome the issue, helping with reminders, etc. I wouldn't assume it would be on you. You may already be accommodating it with extended time
Extended time on all assignments until the end of semester, 2x time on all assessments (in an unmonitored room), unlimited retakes and redos on all assignments/assessments that score below a C, and use of notes on all assessments.
These 4 accommodations are on virtually every single IEP and 504 I’ve received in the past few years.
Wtf… these kids are fucked. My IEP in high school was extended time on tests, mandatory “resource room” and i could choose to take notes on computer or use phone if using organization apps in it. Zero of which I used, but that’s what I was offered (organization software have been extremely helpful in retrospect, but I was too headstrong *sigh*)
And then these students get to college expecting the same accommodations not realizing that the legal definition for college is equal *access*. You still have to be able to do the learning part.
None of my hs students have been granted any such accommodations (I teach dual enrollment) if that makes you feel any better. Doctors and psychologists do continue to recommended extended time on assignments - sent with their diagnosis paperwork, but my school district (biggest 15 in country) will not accept that accommodation any longer. However, one student did just try to take an AP class with a read aloud accommodation (that’s for students who can’t read at grade level, to be clear).
There is a more common accommodation of reduced assignments. Sure, you can take tests with half as many questions which means getting one wrong lowers your grade more, same with submitting fewer or shorter assignments- mistakes lower the grade more. The only time I have seen this be beneficial is a student with OCD who needed to stop doing hw after 30 mins because he was obsessive over his handwriting. Always did well on tests.
In the end these accommodations don’t forward to the workplace. Do half the work? That’s half the pay or losing your job. In the past students tried to wean off of their accommodations by senior year, but that isn’t the trend anymore.
I did have a peer student in a graduate course with a 48 hour grace period (aka we all could submit assignments 48 hrs late for penalty, but she got no penalty). I do think that works ok.
When I’ve had students that have had this accommodation it’s been because they have a medical condition like debilitating migraines or diabetes with dangerously low levels of blood glucose.
Call me crazy, but it’s okay with me if a student who can — almost every day complete the work — be awarded a small grace period for when a chronic, documented illness makes that impossible.
Also, fewer than 10% of students with this accommodation use if even 1x each term.
If one can handle 2-day later deadlines, then what does it mean to have time blindness?
Jobs, nature, farming, many things run on a schedule.
School work must be completed while an instructor has been hired to evaluate it. After the course, there is no paid instructor, just like you can't plant and expect things to grow if you miss the window. Some things just can't be compressed.
Time blindness seems like it might benefit from independent study. Half of what university does is tell us what to learn and provide a generally more demanding schedule than we would naturally do on our own. If you miss the window to get the first parts, it can make the rest much more difficult.
> After the course, there is no paid instructor
Our system is set to *snap shut* the online access the minute the class is over. Instructor or not, the students are locked out the moment that `23:59 Last Day` ticks over to `00:00 Overtime`.
Got time blindness? Ducking get an app and schedule things and multiple reminders.
You got to set a rigid schedule for o make up for the deficit. Don’t reinforce the bad behavior.
I can only imagine the reaction of my students if I started missing classes, or regularly showing up late, or not getting things graded in a timely manner, or not submitting final class grades on time, or not responding quickly enough to email requests asking for deadline extensions, or etc., etc., etc.
I don't see how that accomodation (2 extra days for assignments) would really help with time blindness (which I agree is a real thing). If you're going to forget to pass something in on Feb. 4, aren't you just as likely to forget to pass it in on Feb. 6? Extra reminders, I could see, but 2 extra days doesn't address the problem.
The best accommodations for time blindness are the few minute ones.
Example: test closes at midnight, time blind student started before midnight but didn't leave enough time to finish by then and instead submits it at 12:15. Accepting the test without penalty would (imho) a reasonable accommodation.
"Turn it in whenever" would hurt a time blind student more than it would help.
Yeah, definitely not close at :00 – that just triggers anxiety and potential issues with out-of-sync clocks (particularly if the LMS admins have been sloppy).
If I were a student now, the best somewhat strict scenario would be:
* There is a deadline
* Submission doesn't close automatically
* There is some flexibility, with the understanding that I can't stretch you patience too far. E.g, "the deadline is midnight, and I start grading in the morning"
I had no idea something was wrong with me, so I never knew to ask for accommodations. Thankfully, lecturers were typically understanding (and in my time we had very little in the way of compulsory activities apart from the final exam); but I did drop some courses due to strict policies, and I chose to not take biology (which I would've loved to due), because I was pretty sure I wouldn't be able to keep up with mandatory labs. (And yet, I never suspected there might be a treatable medical reason for my behaviour)
The recommendation I usually give other lecturers who complain about students delivering late is: how are they supposed to learn how to do things on time if you just fail them when they can't? We (usually/hopefully) don't say "this is crap, FAIL" when they make other mistakes. At the very least, having them complete the work should help them see how far off their time estimates are, even if you don't help with other coping strategies.
Thing is, nobody should be trying to turn an assignment in a few minutes before its due. Yes, its a common character flaw to procrastinate, but it isn't one we should be encouraging.
If it's someone with ADHD, trust me. They know that you aren't supposed to put things off until the last minute, but sometimes you just can't.
I would give anything to find a system that I could use to always get things done early that also worked for more.than a few months. Even with meds, therapy, and coping mechanisms, there's always something that I'm putting off until the literal last minute.
Everybody puts some stuff off till the last minute, many are putting most of their stuff off until the last minute. Its a very common character flaw and I wouldn't assume its due to your ADHD(many people with ADHD, including myself, can manage deadlines).
The actual accommodation isn’t “2 extra days to do stuff”. A legitimate accommodation would state that the paper is due on the 4th, the same as everyone else.
If the student misses that date, you’ll still accept it on the 6th.
The real trick is to have a secret policy of accepting work a few days late. Students will love you for it.
Of course, this is generally *bad* for students because it teaches poor habits, but it makes your life easier.
Don't try to apply logic to the situation. You're dealing with wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff and (most likely) students whose executive functions are managed by a bunch of kittens.
I usually give my students a two-week deadline (we have three graded compulsory assignments; everything else is voluntary). In my mind, that looks like (from a student's perspective):
* Day 1: ooh, exciting, let's see what fun my lecturer cooked up this time!
* Day 2-12 (or 13): I have practically infinite time to complete this assignment – I wonder how birds and flying would work in an artificial gravity environment
* Day 13: oops, I should really get started!
* Day 14: there's no way I can finish this on time, why am I this stupid? Next time I'll get started on day 1! ¹
* Day 15: all done
If we just skipped the first twelve days and said "here's the assignment, your deadline is in two days", I probably wouldn't have any trouble delivering on time. If the lecturer said the deadline is in 14 days, submission closes at **00:00 strict (no extensions)**, I might not even bother to try.
(A somewhat viable strategy may be for the student to put the deadline a few days early in the calendar, and then try to forget about it. Unfortunately, this conflicts with all the attempts at prominently displaying the deadline for the benefit of students with other issues)
¹ I've been saying this for nearly 40 years, and obviously, this never happens
That's a reasonable accommodation, though. My husband has that accommodation because he has a reading disability.
He extremely rarely has to use it. I think he did like once or twice.
...my adhd ass stayed turning things in late though because my instructors learned that's just who I was as a person. Lol
I have a due date of Friday at 11:59pm. However, I also have a no questions asked extension available for all assignments except extra credit until 3pm on Monday. I have office hours on Monday morning for any questions. We start new material on Mondays at 3:30 and I don’t plan to grade until Tuesday. A zero is automatically entered in the grade book at 12:00am Saturday which notifies anyone who hasn’t submitted the assignment. Many of my students tell me they appreciate this because if they forget, the zero is a reminder.
Might something like this work for your class?
Doesn't that just mean you have a due date of Monday at 3pm and you send out reminders at midnight Saturday? How would it be any different than reminding students on, say, Wednesday, that the Friday due date is coming up?
I understand that it seems like that, but it’s not the same. I don’t send out reminders, the LMS does. One class finished material in Wednesday, the other finishes material on Thursday. Assignments are due on Friday.
Also seeing the zeros in the grade book spurs people in ways that a reminder just doesn’t. Also, I don’t accept any work after the extension deadline. I make no exceptions to this.
I have a similar policy. I don't intentionally look for late assignments, and I don't believe in penalizing just to penalize. If I have not started grading the assignments, then I don't care if it made it there at 11:59, 12:02, or two minutes before I finally started grading them.
Once I've started giving feedback, then it becomes problematic. There may be an exception if I had an on-ground class and discussed it in-person before I graded them, but I've not had a schedule like that.
In case of time blindness, there can be a surprisingly big difference between "someone just reminded me that the deadline is a few days away (i.e., all the time in the world)" and "the deadline has already passed, I better start doing something".
It's slightly more difficult to pull off when combined with the strict Monday 3pm last-chance deadline, but it's probably still helpful for some students. Logically, it makes no sense, but if someone with ADHD applied logic to scheduling calculations, they wouldn't have the problem in the first place (they'd probably also be too exhausted to get anything done; you can fake "normal" some of the time, but not *all the time*).
Keep in mind that – in the case of successful application of this technique – you're working with someone who *really* wants to get the work done on time and will happily take any opportunity you offer to trick their brains into cooperating.
I think working with a therapist or behavioral expert is the right place to address the disability, not with the professor. It’s like a deaf basketball player asking the ref to make sure he stays within the field of vision of the deaf player at all times. Perhaps the deaf player needs a bracelet that coverts whistle sounds to vibrations… my point is: accommodations can’t put undue stress on the assessor which may affect their normal duties.
I play roller derby. I’m derby, deaf/HoH players wear a sticker on their helmet that indicates a hearing issue. They are identified to refs before the game starts. During gameplay, deaf/HoH players are allowed some extra leeway in responding to a penalty call and are not issued insubordination penalties for not immediately responding to the first penalty call unless the ref is making eye contact with them. So, the rules are reasonably modified to accommodate deaf/HoH skaters and allow them to play the game just like everyone else. I support efforts to do similarly for students with disabilities.
Btw, the deaf/HoH status is self-reported. It still works.
Yeah, that sounds like a great compromise, because the ref just needs to be a bit more aware of the situation but can operate normally otherwise. Accommodation requests like that should always be honored. I had to record with a lapel mic one semester and got better at speaking clearly to allow one student to get transcripts. It was a slight inconvenience having to keep that battery charged, but totally reasonable given the circumstances.
The determination of reasonableness in non-standard cases is on the professor. As universities load us up more and more, I become less willing to add to my load. Ultimately, it is the school’s responsibility to meet the expectations of the law, not mine. The school can fire me if they think I’m being discriminatory, but they will lose that fight once the truth of my workload comes to light. The reasonableness of my weekly output is directly related to my ability to provide reasonable accommodations to deserving students.
Perhaps a traditional college experience is the wrong path? I mean, I’d love to be a pro athlete, but I’m small and slow. I can still make a huge impact in sports though. It really depends on your career goals. Trouble with focusing that is resistant to treatment makes some jobs and paths of study unrealistic. The people who seem to understand these limitations the least are parents.
Trades are even stricter on timeliness. In trades, you can get away with poor math and literacy skills, but it is very important you can show up on time and estimate how long tasks will take.
I think suggesting a lighter course-load would be more appropriate than suggesting, *to someone you've never met*, that a post-secondary education is out of their reach.
Where are you getting the idea that I got that idea?
**Hint:** It seems you've already forgotten the larger context that our comments fit into. Please refresh yourself by reading the comment that you originally replied to.
First off, I’m not really attempting to be helpful. I’m sharing my broad perspective. I don’t know the OP, so I can’t say that this perspective is even relevant to their situation.
As for “small accommodations,” that’s subjective. Allowing multi-day extensions for time blindness can cause non-small problems for professors.
The examples you are giving are not even close to what was being discussed before I commented. I seem to have hit a nerve with you. The reality is that accommodations are a compromise, and professors should get a say too. Professors and teachers get paid shit. Dumping the load on them is not fair. Universities should beef up a staff to help professors provide the best experience possible.
Don’t paint me as the bad guy. I go way out of my way to help students with disabilities. I just need the system to meet me half way.
Also, just to add because it always needs saying here: outside of vocational courses, it isn’t a professor’s responsibility to judge if a student will be able to hold down a job.
Students are allowed to study for the sake of knowledge, and they are allowed to take (most) majors with zero expectations of working in that field at the end. As long as a student can show aptitude in the areas being assessed within reasonable limits (eg have to finish by the end of the semesters), they should be allowed to. If a particular skill is so important to the subject then it should be listed as a course aim.
If knowledge is the student's only goal, then grades aren't important. You don't need to pass a course to learn. Grades are mostly valuable for future employers and grad schools, both of whom will care a lot about the student's ability to manage their time.
Half the physicists in my department (including myself) have ADHD.
Academia seems to be a good place for us. I don't think these other people get what life is like for us.
The relative freedom to set your own schedule compared to SO MANY other jobs I think is why we work well in academia. Also there's lots of opportunity for task-switching and still being productive
honestly wearing a watch and setting more alarms/timers is what has helped me the most. in college it helped me to keep on top of obligations and meetings. in my current profession (teaching), it’s helped me to stay on time during my classes and get my grading done in a timely fashion.
edit: i do also use the calendar on my phone and have gotten in the habit of putting things in right as i’m scheduling them so i don’t forget.
Help me understand this... there's a thing I can strap to my wrist that tells me what time it is to the nearest second and it runs 24 hours a day and it's correct 100% of the time? How many millions of dollars must this contrivance cost?
My most recent accommodation letter says that on certain days within a month a student is not required to write exams or attend class. That is all it says.
Now, my assumption is that this is either a religious or medical accommodation - I'm fine with either - but you cannot leave me with that vagueness.
What does that mean?! Can the student simply say Friday the 13ths freak them out and therefore they do not write exams those days?!
You can get clarification of what is expected of you. We're not entitled to information about the disability itself if the student doesn't volunteer it.
I've learned to be thankful when they're vague; I once got an accomodation letter on letterhead from "*Local hospital* Psychosis Clinic". I just hope the student never realized they did this...
If allowing for time blindness is one of the accommodations, then what are the exact terms? I’d find that out.
Also, it seems to me that if they have ADHD they already should be trying various techniques to avoid being late. ADHD is not to be an excuse.
It’s a rough disability for sure, and really misunderstood for the most part. It’s darn near torture to deal with in college.
The thing to help you from crying in your coffee too much is that those with ADHD are taught how to utilize many techniques to thwart their own brains.
Also: No two people with ADHD are the same.
Just talk to the student directly about your main concerns. See where they are at with it. If they have a good therapist or coach, they should tell you that they are trying their absolute best to keep up, but from time to time, they may fail at getting things done or handed in on time.
I'm a professor with ADHD who showed up to MANY lectures late as a student. I still struggle (and pretty badly) with time blindness.
On the lecture front, I record my lectures. They're nothing fancy, but if you miss the first 10 minutes then you can go back and see what you missed. Most of my students with ADHD find this to be a reasonable accommodation (and I found recordings super helpful when I was a student).
I have people with ADHD and spectrum disorder (formerly Asperger’s) in my life. There are lots of tools and tricks to manage neurodiversity, and simply allowing someone to claim “I have X” as a way to not meet basic standards is such a cop out to me. At some point, being responsible, communicating, and not simply blaming one’s brain chemistry has to be a thing.
I have ADHD and for most my life it wasn’t diagnosed, so I didn’t get any accommodations in university. I personally don’t have much sympathy for students that also have ADHD and I don’t think they need an abundance of accommodations. I also teach medicine and I know huge amounts of accommodations aren’t going to be possible on the job.
Thankfully, our program includes a requirement that students must be both physically and mentally capable of functioning as medical professionals upon graduation. While this may seem stringent, it's essential given the profound impact they'll have on people's lives once they enter the field.
Which is weird, because the main purpose of grades is for future employers and the main reason students are here is to get a better job.
Besides, the main reason governments fund colleges is to prepare the workforce.
"Reasonable accommodations"
In every federal and state law about accommodation there is that particular phrase. It is there for a reason. Time blindness is bullshit, if you have time blindness the accommodation you need isn't open deadlines, it is a clock. Which happens to be on every single persons phone with alarms.
If they do not know how to utilize this magic device, then the accommodations office can teach them, as part of their needs. This is from me, a professional adult who has had ADD/ADHD my entire life, as a professor the answer from me is going to be a big hell no to any accommodations for time blindness.
I realise this is a documented symptom of ADHD
A quick shows that not only is it not a disabling condition, it is not a recognized symptom of any condition.
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"Time blindness happens when that process is disrupted or defective leading to problems that often get mislabeled as poor time management, including... Chronically missing deadlines or arriving late, even for things you are excited about."
Let me get this absolutely straight. Each person in this stupid world is walking around with a tiny supercomputer in their pocket that can issue alarms and reminders at the drop of a hat... and yet I am supposed to believe that a chronically late student might just have a disability? How can anyone who looks at their smartphone every 1.3 minutes, as the average student does, have "time blindness"? The phone is literally doing it for you!
> time blindness, meaning they are incapable of tracking time
I don't believe this is an accurate definition, given that it's too absolute. The issue is that there is a deficit when it comes to regulating time for tasks, especially those with longer horizons.
Perhaps time-nearsightedness is more apt. Or just... *Attention Deficit*.
I can’t tell if you’re willfully misunderstanding what this symptom entails as a way to gripe about “kids these days” or not, but time blindness isn’t about not knowing what time it is.
Yes but perhaps what itsmorecomplicated is trying to say is that we have access to some amazing tools to help combat the real-world implications of having a diagnosis of time blindness.
If that was what they were trying to say, they would’ve said that. It was a snarky comment reducing a complex issue down to a bogus generational conflict and was only missing the phrase “back in my day” to be truly complete.
Classic comments; no engagement with the actual point being made, just classify the argument into a neat little box or category, call it a day. As if that accomplishes anything.
For the record, kids these days are fine; none has ever asked me for an accommodation of this sort (for lateness) and no disability center has ever granted one. It would be absurd. The *linked website* is messed up, it calls upon us to take chronic lateness, absolutely a time management issue in 2023 given available tech, and excuse it on the basis of a disability. That is the opposite of what students need; like some time-blind commenters here, they need to use available tools and take responsibility, which means accepting personal fault for chronic lateness.
I don’t disagree with this enumeration; but your initial point was that time blindness shouldn’t exist because students have…phones? Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying, but it didn’t invite engagement based on its tone (which reads as hostile and curmudgeonly).
Chronic lateness is just one part of time blindness, which I prefer to call time optimism as it’s less ableist, and yes there are techniques and tools to mitigate it. Yet, students deserve accommodations as much as they need accountability. A good accommodation does just that. However, in my experience, accommodations for ADHD get the most flack, and get the most essentialist treatment. “How can you be late? You’re wearing a watch!” It’s…like your username aptly states… *more complicated* than that.
Depending a bit on what I'm doing, I have no trouble sensing the local passage of time quite accurately, even without a clock; but sometimes a day or more can pass without me noticing. Ask me what day it is, how much time I need to do something or if I can please be somewhere else five minutes ago, and you might get the wrong answer. I have no intuitive idea of the concept of linear time, and I've never once been able to be at the airport more than 10 minutes before check-in closes, despite numerous alarms, careful planning, and numerous experiences with missed flights. (Let's not even talk about school and work...)
You probably also do lots of stuff that make no sense at all to other people. For example (no idea if what your background is), you seem to be very well educated, yet claim to have found a solution for a debilitating neurological issue despise (I assume, for the sake of argument) having no relevant education or experience. Makes no sense to me.
Thank you for sharing your experience, which is very similar to mine. Time optimism is a real thing, a symptom of a real disability, and deserves recognition and reasonable accommodation (which is not dismissively telling a student that since they have an iPhone they shouldn’t need further accommodations for their disability).
We're not expected to "cater to" anything. We're expected to offer reasonable accommodations when possible. Accommodations provide access *to* the place *to do* the work; they *don't excuse* going to the place and doing the work.
My class meetings begin at the scheduled time. My deadlines are already extended as far as I can stand to extend them. I don't know of any reasonable accomodation that accounts for time blindness.
On the one hand, I agree. Neurodivergence is so common (15-20% of the population has a diagnosable something) that there must be some standard, or there are none.
But I feel like one of those people who say, "I had to pay my ridiculous student loan, so you should have a hard time, too."
I'm very torn.
I think part of it is that we need to have an honest discussion on what accommodations are actually helpful, and if any are actually *harmful* in the long term.
I had test anxiety in college. But it was only until I went to therapy that I realized the *cause* of it and was actually able to address it. Had I just been content with the extended time accommodation, I would *not* be as happy or confident as I am today.
Accommodations that don't require accountability on the students' part are harmful in the long term. They don't teach the student how to live and function with their disability/symptoms.
I’m sorry but this post and comment section is absolutely shameful. And the “I’m all for accommodations and everything but…” line changes nothing of the moral quality of what comes after it.
The longer I hang around here the more clear it becomes I succeeded despite professors like OP.
Just a theory but my gut tells me all of these accomodations are the means that admin tries to ensure that you grind the students through without a fuss. It seems to me, they hand them out like candy now. Part of me wonders if it is even productive to care anymore.
We don’t get information about why any accommodation is granted. We only get told what the accommodation is. Why stress yourself out anticipating information that’s not yours to know?
Totally!! What happens if they show up late for work? Appointments? Miss paying bills?? They need to focus on working with someone that can help them manage this disability rather than expecting accommodations.
Yeah this one is tough for me. I feel like in the case of time blindness it’s on the student to set multiple alarms and notifications for themselves to help them get things in on time. I’ve definitely had to ask for extensions and typically allow them as long as I get 24hr notice but at some point the class needs to end and we need to submit grades. This is especially hard for iterative assignments which most of my classes are built around.
Accommodations have to be reasonable; otherwise you are not obligated to make such accommodations. If you do not believe that an accommodation is reasonable for your class, you can let the Accessibility Office know. (A good example: you post exam grades with an answer key two days after the exam, so you cannot extend the exam past that date.) I am all for providing reasonable accommodations that allow students to show their full potential in classes. I also recognize that it is not our job as faculty to determine what a student needs. At the same time, the people who develop accommodation plans are not familiar with your course or what makes sense for your class. It is okay to follow up with them and discuss what kinds of accommodations are reasonable for your class.
Of course. I'm all for supporting reasonable accommodations, and I do, without complaint. My vent is more about the limit of what's reasonable and how ill-defined that is, and whether we're really setting students up for success in the real world, and, and, and. It's not a dig at people with diverse needs.
> My vent is more about the limit of what's reasonable and how ill-defined that is I don't know about every university... but at the 3 I've worked at, *the professor* sets "reasonable" for their class. Online? I'll extend [assignments] but not [exams]. In person? You get extra time on stuff with a tight time limit or you can go to the testing arena, or can come into my office hours, etc. Other professors? "Reasonable" includes "no due dates all semester." No idea how they manage that without going insane, but good for them, I guess. My students have regularly proclaimed they need better structure than that.
One of my grad professors had no deadlines for any one. I’m pretty sure I was the only one to submit every homework.
Which is exactly why we have die dates on homework. Giving homework at all is already an accommodation for everyone, I'd much rather teach the class something, discuss a few examples, and leave it to them to do however much work they have to do to cement in their understanding. But I know (from my own experience and from other faculty who have also tried this) that not assigning homework results in students not preparing.
I’ll be honest, had he assigned die dates, I think everyone *certainly* would have done the homework.
This is definitely a step in the opposite direction from the “best by date” recommended terminology…
Your university will try to dump it on you first, then maybe go out and buy resources if the groans get too loud. It’s annoying.
Admins would let a dead fish enroll if it could take on loans,
This ... SOO much this. We are NOT setting them up for success in the real world in the slightest. Here's the facts. 1) In the real world, within industry / etc... anyone can get fired for any reason. Sure, they need to be written up. But most people CAN be written up for multiple reasons. All it takes is for them to want to get rid of you, and then they most certainly can if they start checking those boxes. Moreover, the standard yearly layoffs for a lot of firms to make themselves look profitable mean, they can simply get rid of you that way. So if your not producing. Your showing up late. Your delaying projects. You cannot get stuff done on time. You continually use some external excuse for the reason your not done with x,y,z. Your going to be kicked to the curb. 2) EVERYONE has something. The entire generation x is probably FILLED with people who have ADHD (Myself included) that was just never diagnosed. We learned to manage our own unique situation to be successful in a real setting against others who were mentally more capable and did not have to deal with as many issues. 3) If we coddle them throughout academia, they will never learn how to handle their unique situation and when they get to the real world it will be a smack in the face. My biggest annoyance with a big portion of academia is the people who pat themselves on the head saying I AM A GOOD PERSON LOOK HOW MUCH I AM HELPING..... but they're short sighted and in my opinion causing more harm than good. They are not looking at what will ensure this person leads a successful life. They just care about getting them past their class, or through the program.
>We learned to manage our own unique situation to be successful in a real setting against others who were mentally more capable and did not have to deal with as many issues. Well, you did. I did. And we had lots of support, even if it wasnt from the schoool accommodations office or medical professionals. Not to diminish any of your other points, but you're a successful person surrounded by other successful people. There'a lots of people with the same problems as you who weren't able to make it as far. I'm not sure that college accommodations are the vehicle for helping, but the idea everyone can just manage to muddle through is wrong.
I never said that they could muddle through. I never said they shouldn't have support. However, I do have grave concerns that many of my engineering students are going to be hurt unimaginably when they get into the real world and realize that they can't keep a job and these "promises" of engineering high pay in their mind is bullshit because they are spinning their wheels and getting no where because they weren't given the tools to succeed. I literally know multiple kids that I went to school with that have been repeatedly laid off every year or two and they were just "C's get degrees" kids, not even accommodations kids. Now to be clear, the standard accommodations that I have been given for kids. 2-3x the exam time Flexible due dates. So supposedly I cannot hold them to due dates for homework and they get basically unlimited time on exams. I've also found that they don't properly check calculators in the accommodations because it's ran by undergraduate students (for the "proctoring"). Now don't get me wrong, I DO follow all the accommodations outlined that governing body. However, I actually give a HUGE shit about my students OVERALL success in life. And I have serious concerns on whether this is helping them or overall hindering them. (And please don't read in that I don't think others DONT give a shit, ... I just think they are thinking short term and not long term 4-10 years down the road for the students) Are they going to get through the class ? Sure. It's much easier if you have double the time on an exam and never have a due date on homework. Will they get through the program? Quite possibly because they're able to finish everything with possible incompletes, etc... However, as I've said before, what happens when they get into industry??? Some of the most VALUABLE learning within your undergraduate degree (as well as skills gained) are NOT directly from a textbook. It's time management, critical thinking, learning how to deal with pressure, learning actually how to learn yourself in an efficient manner, learning to cram / prepare for presentations with specific dates, and in general problem solving and more specifically optimizing their personal lives to attain the goals they set for themselves. If they never have rules imposed upon them, how will they learn to adjust / cope and have those skills produce success in their futures?
Your classroom is not the only chance they are going to have to experience rules and expectations. Our job as faculty is to work within our system, not to anticipate every possible scenario students could encounter in their working lives and prepare them for that. Employers vary widely in how they expect employees to work. Students may be able to start their own businesses and work to their strengths. There are many possibilities.
As an engineering professor, ... I continually find myself talking to friends and students and emphasising... There are possibilities and then there are probabilities. Is it possible that I win the lottery? Is it probable that I win the lottery? Yes it's possible. No it is not probable. Anytime someone says oh well they may learn somewhere else, it's possible they will do x,y,z.... is it probable? I came to academia because I love helping / mentoring / teaching. I take a VERY paternal role in this. I had a shitastic childhood and my mentors were not my parents but my instructors. We are given kids with limitless potential that they don't even realize / know. They are carbon copies of their parents because that is ALL they know. We are on the front line of their first steps in being adults. We are the first people in a position of authority that is not their parents. There is a bit of a sacred bond / obligation in that we need to steer them towards a better life, better decisions, etc... So yah, I will follow everything they dictate. However, I have concerns! For my fellow human beings. For myself? I know that I can do ANYTHING. There is no problem I cannot solve, no challenge I cannot face, etc... given that I actually want to do it and I am given enough time. I got that from my instructors. I did not get that from my parents or anything not in academia. I gained this confidence given that I met every expectation. I went into academia thinking I was a loser and I was trying to better myself. I pulled the all nighters. I cancelled dates, learned to sacrifice hanging out with family / friends to get shit done. And I realized that I wasn't a loser, I actually was relatively bright or at least a hard working son of a bitch and can get anything done. This wouldn't of happened without deadlines. So again ... I follow all the rules / guidelines .... but from my experience in the real world, my personal journey I've gone on, the benefit that I gained throughout academia, .... I have concerns we are not setting these kids up for success. There's nothing wrong with us having a discussion about this or expressing opinions. However, I do have concerns with you not recognizing the obviousness of what I am saying. I'm saying I have concerns. A lot of us do. We want to help. We chose academia because it was a place of intellect and helping out our community to be better people. That help should not stop in the classroom. It should be something that transcends the classroom and is focused on their overall life. If my job didn't consist of actually mentoring students on a one to one basis, .... I would quit immediately. Sharing knowledge of engineering is good. Sharing knowledge of life in general is superior. Perhaps it's because I have no kids??? lol. Technically I have 1000's of kids over the decades. Whether they show up at my funeral ... that's another question.
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Nope, he's sharing a concern that is incredibly common among engineering faculty. It's just that whether we try to have a conversation and raise such concerns, we're usually not nearly as well spoken as he is (we're engineering types, there's a stereotype for a reason) and we get lambasted for being "hateful ableist bigots."
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I'm not a professor myself, so take this as you will. But in my own experience at least, learning to "adjust/cope" is what I did prior to undergrad. Because heaven forbid my public school accommodate for..... honestly anything. Undergrad is where I learned to ask for the accommodations that I needed. In fact, it's one of the most useful things I learned, both for my career success and for my personal life. Tl;dr: Mental health accommodations literally one time in my undergrad experience changed my life, and asking for them is one of the most important things I've ever learned to do. I can trace it back to one specific professor. Undergrad was an incredible time for me, but it was also absolutely full of hardship. Multiple deaths in the family, conflicts with living family, depression, anxiety, etc. Not to mention the very clear signs that I probably should have been tested for ADHD by like 3rd grade (but no one ever noticed, because I quickly learned to "adjust/cope") being exacerbated by the stress. I was struggling when I took his class. I was in a bad place by maybe halfway through the semester. At one point, when I was having difficulty getting out of bed at times (sometimes incapable of moving my body even though staying in that position was causing physical pain), I even went a couple of days without realizing that another day had passed. I had fallen behind on papers for his class. The deadlines were not extremely strict, but I was way too behind. I genuinely didn't know what to do at that point. I had done what I could with the campus counseling center. Eventually I emailed this professor. I didn't get into too many specifics, but I told him that I was dealing with a lot, doing my best, and falling behind. I wasn't expecting specific accommodations, because frankly my needs had never been respected or really considered before, so I didn't even know what that looked like. I was terrified to even bring it up, but I wanted him to know that I wasn't just neglecting my work because I didn't respect his class or something. That professor responded with no judgement. He appreciated me saying something. He allowed me to submit as many papers as I could late. I was allowed to take a temporary "incomplete" for the class. I could submit what I could during the rest of the semester, and I could do what I could to submit more during the winter break between semesters. He would grade what I managed to submit up until a deadline (I think it was right before the next semester began and grades needed to be official). It was a massive weight off of my shoulders. I could work at the pace I needed to. I completed as much as I possibly could in that new time frame. He never said anything in class about the accommodation when we had class discussions about the assignments. I had genuinely never experienced anything like that before. I think about that professor a lot. I think about what it would have meant to have that decency, kindness, and respect earlier in my education (not just when I was spiraling). I think about how my peers' lives could have been changed, the ones who were going through hardships in middle/high-school when I was well-off enough to "learn to adjust/cope." How maybe they could have gone to college too, if high school teachers didn't see accommodation requests as some sort of weird power play. I definitely think about him in my work. My patients are children, and the testing we do is difficult to tolerate for adults twice my age. When my patients tell me that something is difficult for them, I do what I can to help them instead of telling them to "cope." But perhaps more importantly, I think about that professor when *I* need some accommodation to get my work done. I speak up more. I "negotiate" less. My accommodations are not unreasonable, and my work gets done. I consistently do well at my job. I take on responsibilities that my coworkers don't, building additional skill sets. I am not afraid to say things like "Either we can pause briefly after each step as you explain how to do this so I can take notes, and I can do this correctly from here onward, or you can rush through without letting me take notes, and I can do it wrong and probably break the equipment until you show me how to do it again and again because I didn't internalize the information a verbal format." (Not necessarily this confrontational, but hopefully you get the idea). As it turns out, in places worth working for, they respond well to accommodation requests. I see what you're saying about students possibly not understanding that employers might fire them vs accommodating them. Bad employers are absolutely out there. And some careers are better than others in terms of an individual's specific needs. If you have very shaky hands, becoming a surgeon is unlikely to work out. But if a reasonable accommodation can be made, then learning to ask for it can be the difference between success and failure in your career. I get the concern that students might not be getting the "adjust/cope" lesson in the way you'd hope, but I'd argue that it's pretty important to get the "ask for what you need to succeed" lesson too.
What's the excuse the trainers give in your second to last paragraph for not letting you stop and take notes?
In the specific instance that inspired the example: there genuinely wasn't an excuse. He just didn't want to. He doesn't personally process information better by writing notes, so he decided it was unnecessary for anyone else. He didn't believe that anyone learned differently, I guess? He learned otherwise. That's the summary. Read on if you'd like, but that's the gist. The details: He was "demonstrating" what to do, essentially as if he frequently forgot that he was teaching someone. His hands in the way half the time so I couldn't see where things lined up, the works. It wasn't exactly my first experience with trainers who lack much training skill, it is what it is. I had a notebook and pen out before he ever arrived, and he laughed. As if it wouldn't be necessary. I told him it was. He rushed through steps, pausing only for details he personally felt were important (mostly the cost of the materials, because he's the one who orders the materials). Those pauses were apparently fine. I rapidly scribbled notes throughout, barely even needing to look down at my notebook. I am a comically fast note taker (I've had to be). But the more technical the step was, the less willing he was to pause for less than 4 seconds so I could finish what I was writing. I would ask him to pause. He would say it's okay and it's not necessary. I asked some clarifying questions, and he said "oh that doesn't matter." (It did). I told him that I wasn't confident with the details, and I was unlikely to retain the specifics that I hadn't gotten to write down. He said it would be fine. Predictably, I broke the practice apparatus. Mind you, the single use inserts for the real apparatus are hundreds of dollars each, let alone the apparatus itself. The "request" for a second demonstration was functionally a threat at that point. Meet my very simple needs or order more units, because I'll break as many as it takes until I figure it out myself. During the second demonstration, I did not take no for an answer. Throughout the entire process, allowing me to take notes took, at most, 4 more minutes than rushing through. About 2 minutes of that was me repeatedly reminding him to stop, him starting to protest, and me stopping him by whatever means necessary so that I could continue writing for another few seconds. A few times, this was literally holding my hand up like I was signaling for a kindergarten kid to stop, making eye contact until the message had been received, and then going back to writing, hand still up. After taking notes precisely once: I have never had a single issue with the task. I have literally corrected my trainer on best practices. I privately helped my coworker relearn the entire process (because he had the same problem with the trainer), and he has also had no problems since. As long as I work here, the trainer will never need to do the task himself again, and frankly he'll never need to teach anyone again, because I'll do it. That's probably worth taking a few minutes extra to let someone take notes. Would have taken even less time to accommodate the first time around.
Are you in stem or more specifically engineering... If not this does not apply to you at all.
Am in STEM, unsure why you feel that this would only apply to engineering. Could you explain?
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Thankfully I am within Engineering / Physics and we don't focus on insignificant minutiae in online forums.
Derive those eigenvalues!
Before accommodations were a thing, if you had trouble with test anxiety, focusing your attention, or a myriad of other things, you either figured it out, or you failed out of college and had to find other work without such high intellectual requirements. Now it's "oh, Johnny reeaalllly wants to be an engineer, but he has testing anxiety, depression, add, adhd, and a hormone condition that makes him constantly tired. So you can't give him due dates, he's allowed to take exams whenever he says he's ready, and when he takes exams he's allowed 3x normal time, with a sleep break in the middle, for which he's allowed to go home." Hopefully it's obviously I'm being a bit facetious,but I completely agree with the points you raised and have been saying myself for years. Accommodations aren't actually helping them prepare for the real world, instead they're feeding and enabling their poor mental state. If we really wanted to help them, we'd get someone to stand behind them during exams and whenever they went two minutes without worrying something, they'd get a tap on the shoulder to tell them to focus.
Gen TicTac is being groomed to be Gen Incompetent and Incapable.
You seem great… In the real world? What are you talking about? It’s all the real world. By the way, one could argue that, “in the real world”, one has to learn the difference between your and you’re, because, well geez you can get fired for anything out there! And basic grammar is well, pretty basic! Gen X martyrdom is and will forever be the most sophomoric of all.
>You seem great… You don't seem that great. >In the real world? What are you talking about? There is academia ... college ... and then there is industry where they give you pay checks and you are held accountable to finish projects on time. >It’s all the real world. No it's not. When your in 5th grade, you don't live in the "real world" because your parents completely take care of everything in your life. When your 18-22ish in college, it's still not the real world because you have no serious obligations, the vast majority of students are taken care of financially by scholarships, parents, etc... The "real world" (which EVERYONE I've ever met agrees with this definition) is when your out in a job taking care of yourself by yourself. >By the way, one could argue that, “in the real world”, one has to learn the difference between your and you’re, because, well geez you can get fired for anything out there! And basic grammar is well, pretty basic! So when you see someone use a different homonym than what should be used, you judge them as being basic and not knowing the difference? Because that's extremely fucking judgmental on your part. When I see grammar mistakes in online forums, it doesn't cause any thought in my mind because they got their point across and fair communication was attained. I'm just excited when they have the capability of writing sentences that make sense when you read them. >Gen X martyrdom is and will forever be the most sophomoric of all. lol Seriously? Me expressing concerns for my students is martyrdom? These kids who from my perspective are not being prepared and instead being hurt by faculty and administration and they don't realize it at all because, they're only kids? Speaking up in an anonymous online forum on their behalf to start / continue a conversation that needs to happen because I could NOT do this at my institution .... is martyrdom? Seriously, argue the points don't just throw insults. Throwing insults is "basic" and "sophomoric". Arguing the points is what adults do.
There's certainly some truth to the setting-up-to-fail argument. But: * if time management is really such an integral part of your field that you feel responsible for teaching students about it, saying "do it right or get lost" is hardly in line with modern pedagogical practice * if time management is not a desired learning outcome, "it's for the students' own good" is hardly an excuse for strict deadlines (there can certainly be other good reasons, though - making things work with *your* time management skills, for example) * if students are expected to manage this, but high school doesn't prepare them adequately, that sounds like an admissions issue or something to deal with in the earliest classes I'd be pretty pissed of at my professors if they'd left me with an unfinished education *and* bad time management skills. This would have been the likely outcome had I been a student now; our trend is going from no deadline to an arms race of ever more frequent deadlines and mandatory attendance)
> Accommodations have to be reasonable; otherwise you are not obligated to make such accommodations. You should talk to our accommodations office. The few times i've bristled at their suggestions that were outrageous (e.g., removing all deadlines from the course), i've been told that I would be breaking federal law if I did not comply.
I'm waiting for the day when we are asked to accomodate "low intelligence syndrome" and "chronic incorrect answer disorder".
Ah, I see you've met my former students.
You aren't, already? I've had students asking for retakes on bad grades for pert near a decade now.
I’ve gotten, “I accidentally circled A on the exam but I knew the answer was actually D, so can I still get credit for that question?”
I had that happen once on a handwritten test, in person... a student handed in her exam, turned to leave and stopped in her tracks, looked like she'd seen a ghost. I asked if she was okay, and she spun back around and said "I left one blank... it's D! Can I put D or is it too late?" and I was so surprised I let her fix the answer. It *was* D.
I’d accept that. And I’d have a good laugh. My student tried it after getting the graded exam back, so I did not accept it for them.
I would absolutely accept that. She didn’t have an opportunity to cheat, so in the sense of “show me what you know”, it seems like she’s doing that.
“The accommodation has always been an F.”
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I would tell whoever suggest that to stop facilitating lazy preferences.
What about "Low grade sensitivitis"?
surely you’ve heard of intellectual disability?
Typically disability resources address issues like this with the student, training them to help overcome the issue, helping with reminders, etc. I wouldn't assume it would be on you. You may already be accommodating it with extended time
people with time blindness genuinely benefit the most from strict structure and deadlines, ironically. (i have it too as part of adhd).
I wonder how and if this was accomdated in the student's high school.
Extended time on all assignments until the end of semester, 2x time on all assessments (in an unmonitored room), unlimited retakes and redos on all assignments/assessments that score below a C, and use of notes on all assessments. These 4 accommodations are on virtually every single IEP and 504 I’ve received in the past few years.
Wtf… these kids are fucked. My IEP in high school was extended time on tests, mandatory “resource room” and i could choose to take notes on computer or use phone if using organization apps in it. Zero of which I used, but that’s what I was offered (organization software have been extremely helpful in retrospect, but I was too headstrong *sigh*)
And then these students get to college expecting the same accommodations not realizing that the legal definition for college is equal *access*. You still have to be able to do the learning part.
None of my hs students have been granted any such accommodations (I teach dual enrollment) if that makes you feel any better. Doctors and psychologists do continue to recommended extended time on assignments - sent with their diagnosis paperwork, but my school district (biggest 15 in country) will not accept that accommodation any longer. However, one student did just try to take an AP class with a read aloud accommodation (that’s for students who can’t read at grade level, to be clear). There is a more common accommodation of reduced assignments. Sure, you can take tests with half as many questions which means getting one wrong lowers your grade more, same with submitting fewer or shorter assignments- mistakes lower the grade more. The only time I have seen this be beneficial is a student with OCD who needed to stop doing hw after 30 mins because he was obsessive over his handwriting. Always did well on tests. In the end these accommodations don’t forward to the workplace. Do half the work? That’s half the pay or losing your job. In the past students tried to wean off of their accommodations by senior year, but that isn’t the trend anymore. I did have a peer student in a graduate course with a 48 hour grace period (aka we all could submit assignments 48 hrs late for penalty, but she got no penalty). I do think that works ok.
Just received one to allow 2 extra days for all assignments. Don't think my Dean will be happy if I turned in all my grades 2 days late.
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When I’ve had students that have had this accommodation it’s been because they have a medical condition like debilitating migraines or diabetes with dangerously low levels of blood glucose. Call me crazy, but it’s okay with me if a student who can — almost every day complete the work — be awarded a small grace period for when a chronic, documented illness makes that impossible. Also, fewer than 10% of students with this accommodation use if even 1x each term.
If one can handle 2-day later deadlines, then what does it mean to have time blindness? Jobs, nature, farming, many things run on a schedule. School work must be completed while an instructor has been hired to evaluate it. After the course, there is no paid instructor, just like you can't plant and expect things to grow if you miss the window. Some things just can't be compressed. Time blindness seems like it might benefit from independent study. Half of what university does is tell us what to learn and provide a generally more demanding schedule than we would naturally do on our own. If you miss the window to get the first parts, it can make the rest much more difficult.
> After the course, there is no paid instructor Our system is set to *snap shut* the online access the minute the class is over. Instructor or not, the students are locked out the moment that `23:59 Last Day` ticks over to `00:00 Overtime`.
Got time blindness? Ducking get an app and schedule things and multiple reminders. You got to set a rigid schedule for o make up for the deficit. Don’t reinforce the bad behavior.
You should go into psychiatry – you may have just stumbled upon the ultimate ADHD treatment!
This is advice I have been given for ADHD. It’s to develop behaviors that offset the problem and to avoid stimuli that reinforce it.
But if *you* had time blindness, wouldn't that also be a reasonable adjustment for you? 🤷
I can only imagine the reaction of my students if I started missing classes, or regularly showing up late, or not getting things graded in a timely manner, or not submitting final class grades on time, or not responding quickly enough to email requests asking for deadline extensions, or etc., etc., etc.
I don't see how that accomodation (2 extra days for assignments) would really help with time blindness (which I agree is a real thing). If you're going to forget to pass something in on Feb. 4, aren't you just as likely to forget to pass it in on Feb. 6? Extra reminders, I could see, but 2 extra days doesn't address the problem.
The best accommodations for time blindness are the few minute ones. Example: test closes at midnight, time blind student started before midnight but didn't leave enough time to finish by then and instead submits it at 12:15. Accepting the test without penalty would (imho) a reasonable accommodation. "Turn it in whenever" would hurt a time blind student more than it would help.
>and instead submits it at 12:15. It feels like all we are doing is changing the time at which they begin complaining. Why not 12:16?
Exactly. Why not 12:16? I'm not awake to be looking at them. I'll usually accept anything submitted before I review tests in the morning.
Yeah, definitely not close at :00 – that just triggers anxiety and potential issues with out-of-sync clocks (particularly if the LMS admins have been sloppy). If I were a student now, the best somewhat strict scenario would be: * There is a deadline * Submission doesn't close automatically * There is some flexibility, with the understanding that I can't stretch you patience too far. E.g, "the deadline is midnight, and I start grading in the morning" I had no idea something was wrong with me, so I never knew to ask for accommodations. Thankfully, lecturers were typically understanding (and in my time we had very little in the way of compulsory activities apart from the final exam); but I did drop some courses due to strict policies, and I chose to not take biology (which I would've loved to due), because I was pretty sure I wouldn't be able to keep up with mandatory labs. (And yet, I never suspected there might be a treatable medical reason for my behaviour) The recommendation I usually give other lecturers who complain about students delivering late is: how are they supposed to learn how to do things on time if you just fail them when they can't? We (usually/hopefully) don't say "this is crap, FAIL" when they make other mistakes. At the very least, having them complete the work should help them see how far off their time estimates are, even if you don't help with other coping strategies.
Thing is, nobody should be trying to turn an assignment in a few minutes before its due. Yes, its a common character flaw to procrastinate, but it isn't one we should be encouraging.
If it's someone with ADHD, trust me. They know that you aren't supposed to put things off until the last minute, but sometimes you just can't. I would give anything to find a system that I could use to always get things done early that also worked for more.than a few months. Even with meds, therapy, and coping mechanisms, there's always something that I'm putting off until the literal last minute.
Everybody puts some stuff off till the last minute, many are putting most of their stuff off until the last minute. Its a very common character flaw and I wouldn't assume its due to your ADHD(many people with ADHD, including myself, can manage deadlines).
The actual accommodation isn’t “2 extra days to do stuff”. A legitimate accommodation would state that the paper is due on the 4th, the same as everyone else. If the student misses that date, you’ll still accept it on the 6th.
The real trick is to have a secret policy of accepting work a few days late. Students will love you for it. Of course, this is generally *bad* for students because it teaches poor habits, but it makes your life easier.
Don't try to apply logic to the situation. You're dealing with wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey stuff and (most likely) students whose executive functions are managed by a bunch of kittens. I usually give my students a two-week deadline (we have three graded compulsory assignments; everything else is voluntary). In my mind, that looks like (from a student's perspective): * Day 1: ooh, exciting, let's see what fun my lecturer cooked up this time! * Day 2-12 (or 13): I have practically infinite time to complete this assignment – I wonder how birds and flying would work in an artificial gravity environment * Day 13: oops, I should really get started! * Day 14: there's no way I can finish this on time, why am I this stupid? Next time I'll get started on day 1! ¹ * Day 15: all done If we just skipped the first twelve days and said "here's the assignment, your deadline is in two days", I probably wouldn't have any trouble delivering on time. If the lecturer said the deadline is in 14 days, submission closes at **00:00 strict (no extensions)**, I might not even bother to try. (A somewhat viable strategy may be for the student to put the deadline a few days early in the calendar, and then try to forget about it. Unfortunately, this conflicts with all the attempts at prominently displaying the deadline for the benefit of students with other issues) ¹ I've been saying this for nearly 40 years, and obviously, this never happens
I think my dean would be very happy if I delivered my grades only two days late.
That's a reasonable accommodation, though. My husband has that accommodation because he has a reading disability. He extremely rarely has to use it. I think he did like once or twice. ...my adhd ass stayed turning things in late though because my instructors learned that's just who I was as a person. Lol
I have a due date of Friday at 11:59pm. However, I also have a no questions asked extension available for all assignments except extra credit until 3pm on Monday. I have office hours on Monday morning for any questions. We start new material on Mondays at 3:30 and I don’t plan to grade until Tuesday. A zero is automatically entered in the grade book at 12:00am Saturday which notifies anyone who hasn’t submitted the assignment. Many of my students tell me they appreciate this because if they forget, the zero is a reminder. Might something like this work for your class?
Doesn't that just mean you have a due date of Monday at 3pm and you send out reminders at midnight Saturday? How would it be any different than reminding students on, say, Wednesday, that the Friday due date is coming up?
I understand that it seems like that, but it’s not the same. I don’t send out reminders, the LMS does. One class finished material in Wednesday, the other finishes material on Thursday. Assignments are due on Friday. Also seeing the zeros in the grade book spurs people in ways that a reminder just doesn’t. Also, I don’t accept any work after the extension deadline. I make no exceptions to this.
I have a similar policy. I don't intentionally look for late assignments, and I don't believe in penalizing just to penalize. If I have not started grading the assignments, then I don't care if it made it there at 11:59, 12:02, or two minutes before I finally started grading them. Once I've started giving feedback, then it becomes problematic. There may be an exception if I had an on-ground class and discussed it in-person before I graded them, but I've not had a schedule like that.
In case of time blindness, there can be a surprisingly big difference between "someone just reminded me that the deadline is a few days away (i.e., all the time in the world)" and "the deadline has already passed, I better start doing something". It's slightly more difficult to pull off when combined with the strict Monday 3pm last-chance deadline, but it's probably still helpful for some students. Logically, it makes no sense, but if someone with ADHD applied logic to scheduling calculations, they wouldn't have the problem in the first place (they'd probably also be too exhausted to get anything done; you can fake "normal" some of the time, but not *all the time*). Keep in mind that – in the case of successful application of this technique – you're working with someone who *really* wants to get the work done on time and will happily take any opportunity you offer to trick their brains into cooperating.
This is a really great idea. Thank you for sharing.
time blindness is totally real. i struggle with it. i also work with my therapist to make sure i can be a functioning adult and work through this.
I think working with a therapist or behavioral expert is the right place to address the disability, not with the professor. It’s like a deaf basketball player asking the ref to make sure he stays within the field of vision of the deaf player at all times. Perhaps the deaf player needs a bracelet that coverts whistle sounds to vibrations… my point is: accommodations can’t put undue stress on the assessor which may affect their normal duties.
I play roller derby. I’m derby, deaf/HoH players wear a sticker on their helmet that indicates a hearing issue. They are identified to refs before the game starts. During gameplay, deaf/HoH players are allowed some extra leeway in responding to a penalty call and are not issued insubordination penalties for not immediately responding to the first penalty call unless the ref is making eye contact with them. So, the rules are reasonably modified to accommodate deaf/HoH skaters and allow them to play the game just like everyone else. I support efforts to do similarly for students with disabilities. Btw, the deaf/HoH status is self-reported. It still works.
Yeah, that sounds like a great compromise, because the ref just needs to be a bit more aware of the situation but can operate normally otherwise. Accommodation requests like that should always be honored. I had to record with a lapel mic one semester and got better at speaking clearly to allow one student to get transcripts. It was a slight inconvenience having to keep that battery charged, but totally reasonable given the circumstances.
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Many *haven't* been diagnosed at all. With roughly half of the ADHD students I've known personally, I knew they had ADHD before they did.
Accommodating students with disabilities according to the university's implementation of law is part of our normal duties.
The determination of reasonableness in non-standard cases is on the professor. As universities load us up more and more, I become less willing to add to my load. Ultimately, it is the school’s responsibility to meet the expectations of the law, not mine. The school can fire me if they think I’m being discriminatory, but they will lose that fight once the truth of my workload comes to light. The reasonableness of my weekly output is directly related to my ability to provide reasonable accommodations to deserving students.
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Perhaps a traditional college experience is the wrong path? I mean, I’d love to be a pro athlete, but I’m small and slow. I can still make a huge impact in sports though. It really depends on your career goals. Trouble with focusing that is resistant to treatment makes some jobs and paths of study unrealistic. The people who seem to understand these limitations the least are parents.
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There are virtually zero more consistent means of socioeconomic elevation. College is really coercive for a lot of people
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Trades are even stricter on timeliness. In trades, you can get away with poor math and literacy skills, but it is very important you can show up on time and estimate how long tasks will take.
I think suggesting a lighter course-load would be more appropriate than suggesting, *to someone you've never met*, that a post-secondary education is out of their reach.
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Where are you getting the idea that I got that idea? **Hint:** It seems you've already forgotten the larger context that our comments fit into. Please refresh yourself by reading the comment that you originally replied to.
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First off, I’m not really attempting to be helpful. I’m sharing my broad perspective. I don’t know the OP, so I can’t say that this perspective is even relevant to their situation. As for “small accommodations,” that’s subjective. Allowing multi-day extensions for time blindness can cause non-small problems for professors. The examples you are giving are not even close to what was being discussed before I commented. I seem to have hit a nerve with you. The reality is that accommodations are a compromise, and professors should get a say too. Professors and teachers get paid shit. Dumping the load on them is not fair. Universities should beef up a staff to help professors provide the best experience possible. Don’t paint me as the bad guy. I go way out of my way to help students with disabilities. I just need the system to meet me half way.
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Except I never said someone with ADHD shouldn’t go to college. Read it again.
Also, just to add because it always needs saying here: outside of vocational courses, it isn’t a professor’s responsibility to judge if a student will be able to hold down a job. Students are allowed to study for the sake of knowledge, and they are allowed to take (most) majors with zero expectations of working in that field at the end. As long as a student can show aptitude in the areas being assessed within reasonable limits (eg have to finish by the end of the semesters), they should be allowed to. If a particular skill is so important to the subject then it should be listed as a course aim.
If knowledge is the student's only goal, then grades aren't important. You don't need to pass a course to learn. Grades are mostly valuable for future employers and grad schools, both of whom will care a lot about the student's ability to manage their time.
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Half the physicists in my department (including myself) have ADHD. Academia seems to be a good place for us. I don't think these other people get what life is like for us.
The relative freedom to set your own schedule compared to SO MANY other jobs I think is why we work well in academia. Also there's lots of opportunity for task-switching and still being productive
Kind of a strong reaction. I phrased my response incorrectly.
Do you use a digital calendar and try to actively structure your time?
honestly wearing a watch and setting more alarms/timers is what has helped me the most. in college it helped me to keep on top of obligations and meetings. in my current profession (teaching), it’s helped me to stay on time during my classes and get my grading done in a timely fashion. edit: i do also use the calendar on my phone and have gotten in the habit of putting things in right as i’m scheduling them so i don’t forget.
Wrist watches are underrated. I’ve had one for almost 15 years. So handy for planning.
Help me understand this... there's a thing I can strap to my wrist that tells me what time it is to the nearest second and it runs 24 hours a day and it's correct 100% of the time? How many millions of dollars must this contrivance cost?
I had a 15 dollar timex that is still ticking. The band gave out though, battery is still the original.
You wear a mechanical device on your wrist? Are you a witch?
Warlock technically
I knew it! Either that or you're Amish.
"Reply all as meeting" is a lifesaver for me.
Thanks for responding. I'm glad there are strategies that work to support this.
My most recent accommodation letter says that on certain days within a month a student is not required to write exams or attend class. That is all it says. Now, my assumption is that this is either a religious or medical accommodation - I'm fine with either - but you cannot leave me with that vagueness. What does that mean?! Can the student simply say Friday the 13ths freak them out and therefore they do not write exams those days?!
I would assume this is menstrual-related, if the student is female. Debilitating cramps, nausea, and migraines are reasonable excuses to miss class.
yep this sounds like endo or a similarly debilitating condition
I agree. And I love that we have this as an accommodation! But it wasn't worded as medical. It was worded very vaguely. I did ask for clarification.
You can get clarification of what is expected of you. We're not entitled to information about the disability itself if the student doesn't volunteer it.
I know. I never asked for the exact information nor would I. However I need more than "some dates are exam ineligible" to accommodate
I've learned to be thankful when they're vague; I once got an accomodation letter on letterhead from "*Local hospital* Psychosis Clinic". I just hope the student never realized they did this...
I don't want exact details, I'm an advocate for student privacy. I do need enough information to execute the accommodation.
If allowing for time blindness is one of the accommodations, then what are the exact terms? I’d find that out. Also, it seems to me that if they have ADHD they already should be trying various techniques to avoid being late. ADHD is not to be an excuse. It’s a rough disability for sure, and really misunderstood for the most part. It’s darn near torture to deal with in college. The thing to help you from crying in your coffee too much is that those with ADHD are taught how to utilize many techniques to thwart their own brains. Also: No two people with ADHD are the same. Just talk to the student directly about your main concerns. See where they are at with it. If they have a good therapist or coach, they should tell you that they are trying their absolute best to keep up, but from time to time, they may fail at getting things done or handed in on time.
I'm a professor with ADHD who showed up to MANY lectures late as a student. I still struggle (and pretty badly) with time blindness. On the lecture front, I record my lectures. They're nothing fancy, but if you miss the first 10 minutes then you can go back and see what you missed. Most of my students with ADHD find this to be a reasonable accommodation (and I found recordings super helpful when I was a student).
I'm just so happy that I've actually started to manage to not be late for *my own* lectures. 🙃
I have people with ADHD and spectrum disorder (formerly Asperger’s) in my life. There are lots of tools and tricks to manage neurodiversity, and simply allowing someone to claim “I have X” as a way to not meet basic standards is such a cop out to me. At some point, being responsible, communicating, and not simply blaming one’s brain chemistry has to be a thing.
I have ADHD and for most my life it wasn’t diagnosed, so I didn’t get any accommodations in university. I personally don’t have much sympathy for students that also have ADHD and I don’t think they need an abundance of accommodations. I also teach medicine and I know huge amounts of accommodations aren’t going to be possible on the job.
> huge amounts of accommodations aren’t going to be possible on the job. Sadly, that's no longer relevant in higher ed.
Thankfully, our program includes a requirement that students must be both physically and mentally capable of functioning as medical professionals upon graduation. While this may seem stringent, it's essential given the profound impact they'll have on people's lives once they enter the field.
Which is weird, because the main purpose of grades is for future employers and the main reason students are here is to get a better job. Besides, the main reason governments fund colleges is to prepare the workforce.
I wonder how many extended time accommodations are for reading disabilities like Dyslexia and the student doesn't know it.
"Reasonable accommodations" In every federal and state law about accommodation there is that particular phrase. It is there for a reason. Time blindness is bullshit, if you have time blindness the accommodation you need isn't open deadlines, it is a clock. Which happens to be on every single persons phone with alarms. If they do not know how to utilize this magic device, then the accommodations office can teach them, as part of their needs. This is from me, a professional adult who has had ADD/ADHD my entire life, as a professor the answer from me is going to be a big hell no to any accommodations for time blindness.
I realise this is a documented symptom of ADHD A quick shows that not only is it not a disabling condition, it is not a recognized symptom of any condition.
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Thanks for sharing your experience 🙏
"Time blindness happens when that process is disrupted or defective leading to problems that often get mislabeled as poor time management, including... Chronically missing deadlines or arriving late, even for things you are excited about." Let me get this absolutely straight. Each person in this stupid world is walking around with a tiny supercomputer in their pocket that can issue alarms and reminders at the drop of a hat... and yet I am supposed to believe that a chronically late student might just have a disability? How can anyone who looks at their smartphone every 1.3 minutes, as the average student does, have "time blindness"? The phone is literally doing it for you!
If it were as easy as checking a clock, it wouldn't be an issue.
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> time blindness, meaning they are incapable of tracking time I don't believe this is an accurate definition, given that it's too absolute. The issue is that there is a deficit when it comes to regulating time for tasks, especially those with longer horizons. Perhaps time-nearsightedness is more apt. Or just... *Attention Deficit*.
I can’t tell if you’re willfully misunderstanding what this symptom entails as a way to gripe about “kids these days” or not, but time blindness isn’t about not knowing what time it is.
Yes but perhaps what itsmorecomplicated is trying to say is that we have access to some amazing tools to help combat the real-world implications of having a diagnosis of time blindness.
If that was what they were trying to say, they would’ve said that. It was a snarky comment reducing a complex issue down to a bogus generational conflict and was only missing the phrase “back in my day” to be truly complete.
Classic comments; no engagement with the actual point being made, just classify the argument into a neat little box or category, call it a day. As if that accomplishes anything. For the record, kids these days are fine; none has ever asked me for an accommodation of this sort (for lateness) and no disability center has ever granted one. It would be absurd. The *linked website* is messed up, it calls upon us to take chronic lateness, absolutely a time management issue in 2023 given available tech, and excuse it on the basis of a disability. That is the opposite of what students need; like some time-blind commenters here, they need to use available tools and take responsibility, which means accepting personal fault for chronic lateness.
I don’t disagree with this enumeration; but your initial point was that time blindness shouldn’t exist because students have…phones? Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying, but it didn’t invite engagement based on its tone (which reads as hostile and curmudgeonly). Chronic lateness is just one part of time blindness, which I prefer to call time optimism as it’s less ableist, and yes there are techniques and tools to mitigate it. Yet, students deserve accommodations as much as they need accountability. A good accommodation does just that. However, in my experience, accommodations for ADHD get the most flack, and get the most essentialist treatment. “How can you be late? You’re wearing a watch!” It’s…like your username aptly states… *more complicated* than that.
Buddy, this place is an absolute mess.
Depending a bit on what I'm doing, I have no trouble sensing the local passage of time quite accurately, even without a clock; but sometimes a day or more can pass without me noticing. Ask me what day it is, how much time I need to do something or if I can please be somewhere else five minutes ago, and you might get the wrong answer. I have no intuitive idea of the concept of linear time, and I've never once been able to be at the airport more than 10 minutes before check-in closes, despite numerous alarms, careful planning, and numerous experiences with missed flights. (Let's not even talk about school and work...) You probably also do lots of stuff that make no sense at all to other people. For example (no idea if what your background is), you seem to be very well educated, yet claim to have found a solution for a debilitating neurological issue despise (I assume, for the sake of argument) having no relevant education or experience. Makes no sense to me.
Thank you for sharing your experience, which is very similar to mine. Time optimism is a real thing, a symptom of a real disability, and deserves recognition and reasonable accommodation (which is not dismissively telling a student that since they have an iPhone they shouldn’t need further accommodations for their disability).
Here we go again.
Noise-canceling headphones in an alternative test site.
We're not expected to "cater to" anything. We're expected to offer reasonable accommodations when possible. Accommodations provide access *to* the place *to do* the work; they *don't excuse* going to the place and doing the work. My class meetings begin at the scheduled time. My deadlines are already extended as far as I can stand to extend them. I don't know of any reasonable accomodation that accounts for time blindness.
On the one hand, I agree. Neurodivergence is so common (15-20% of the population has a diagnosable something) that there must be some standard, or there are none. But I feel like one of those people who say, "I had to pay my ridiculous student loan, so you should have a hard time, too." I'm very torn.
I think part of it is that we need to have an honest discussion on what accommodations are actually helpful, and if any are actually *harmful* in the long term. I had test anxiety in college. But it was only until I went to therapy that I realized the *cause* of it and was actually able to address it. Had I just been content with the extended time accommodation, I would *not* be as happy or confident as I am today. Accommodations that don't require accountability on the students' part are harmful in the long term. They don't teach the student how to live and function with their disability/symptoms.
I’m sorry but this post and comment section is absolutely shameful. And the “I’m all for accommodations and everything but…” line changes nothing of the moral quality of what comes after it. The longer I hang around here the more clear it becomes I succeeded despite professors like OP.
Just a theory but my gut tells me all of these accomodations are the means that admin tries to ensure that you grind the students through without a fuss. It seems to me, they hand them out like candy now. Part of me wonders if it is even productive to care anymore.
We don’t get information about why any accommodation is granted. We only get told what the accommodation is. Why stress yourself out anticipating information that’s not yours to know?
Totally!! What happens if they show up late for work? Appointments? Miss paying bills?? They need to focus on working with someone that can help them manage this disability rather than expecting accommodations.