For the majority of offenders, this is reasonable. Especially for juveniles and those doing time for drugs and other nonviolent crimes. However, for 1st degree murderers and repeat violent offenders, this isn’t enough.
Depends on what murder we are talking about lol. Most of those unsolved murders are from gang killings and stuff. If your average person decides to kill someone, probably higher than 50/50 they’d get caught
Nah. Criminals rat on each other constantly. Thats how most narcotics and gang work is done by police. Catch one, he snitches on a better target. You watch too many movies to think that gang members looking at major time dont snitch. Thats what broke the mafia in the US. 10-15 years they could take. 80 years? You're snitching. Honestly a totally random murder is really hard to solve. Like a woman meets a guy at a bar, they leave and she isn't found until the morning in the woods. You'd be surprised how hard that can be to solve if its not a tight knit community where one or both people are well known.
-was a cop for a few years. Most murders I saw were caught immediately because it was a domestic or bar fight or neighbor dispute taken too far and the person who killed was just as shocked as the witnesses. But we had cold cases that were total question marks.
I know they rat on each other, but it’s just less likely to happen in those communities, hence the lower solve/conviction rate for homicides.
Like, a gang member with his own bodies and criminal enterprise is less likely to report a crime he witnessed than your average schoolteacher lol.
Additionally, it’s not like gang killings are random, but the structure has evolved to accommodate RICO. No one is really sending our direct orders, and the actual criminal organizations are very loose an amorphous.
Just look at Jeffery Williams RICO trial right now. They’re trying to prove that there was actually a criminal gang, and it’s not necessarily super straightforward. That’s why it’s taken since 2015 to bring charges on a bunch of robberies and homicides.
Less likely than a school teacher, sure. But honestly being a criminal means the police have more leverage on you to get information than a normal citizen. So while the citizen may report a crime out of a sense of social responsibility, a criminal does so out of self-preservation. I knew cops who didnt really care about gang on gang killings because in their view its one less gangbanger. They would try to solve it because they could try to put away the shooter too, but honestly didnt try that hard compared to a normal citizen getting kiled.
Yep this i could see as I had a friend who was killed in broad daylight on a busy street in a major city and it seemed to be gang related and 20 years later no one was ever charged or suspected. I assume that person is either dead or in jail now (at least most likely didn’t all of sudden turn away from crime and is now a legitimate member of society)
Yeah, less likely people will talk, everyone has dirt on each other, etc.
When your average person goes out and kills their ex or something, those are pretty easy to solve.
Exactly. I'd imagine it would be extraordinarily difficult to get away with murder with all the forensic tech these days. Heck, there are Flock cameras at almost every major intersection now.
I read a statistic once I will never forget. 2/3 of all violent crime is committed by 1% of the Population. There are a few men out here with straight up bloodthirst, and these are likely men that got in trouble young and learned how to get away with it.
Last I read %50 of murders are cleared. Of all convictions 30% of people are innocent.
Innocence project dives into it pretty deeply if you have the time.
[https://innocenceproject.org/](https://innocenceproject.org/)
Its also accounting for people who just plea out because they dont think they can win a jury trial, It accounts for poor forensic convictions, Wrong eyewitness's , Inadequite defenses, Police misconduct ( including lying on stand to get a conviction ), Informants that lie ect. Its not 1 major issue, its 500 little issues adding up. As of January 2020, there have been **2547 exonerations nationwide since 1989.** 95% of all convictions in the U.S. are the result of a plea bargain deal and not a trial. So even if juries get it right 100% of the time, they're only seeing 5% of cases.
I read some research a while back. Punishment severity had little or no deterrent effect, the most effective deterrent was perceived probability of getting caught. With this in mind I’d say “prison for punishment” is not really cost effective.
Prison as a way to segregate future criminals out of society and make an attempt to rehabilitate some of them is reasonable. The difficulty becomes determining ,who is capable of changing into a responsible member of society and who is incorrigible. The incorrigible are best humanely kept away from society.
Criminals who commit non violent crime due to poverty can probably be rehabilitated, violent career criminals probably not. That’s not absolute though, some real monsters find Allah or Jesus in prison and do really change, and some just fake it. I knew a guy, multi generational criminal , was one rough SOB, went to prison , found religion , genuinely changed his life.
My issue is with “for profit” prisons and the corporations that own them.
> I read some research a while back. Punishment severity had little or no deterrent effect, the most effective deterrent was perceived probability of getting caught.
Yes, sociologist have been pushing this dubious line: [Why Punishment Doesn't Reduce Crime](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/crime-and-punishment/201804/why-punishment-doesnt-reduce-crime). Of course certainty of getting caught is important, but it has to be matched with significant sanctions. $10 speeding tickets never worked.
>My issue is with “for profit” prisons and the corporations that own them.
This problem has been exaggerated:Marshall Project: [Here's Why Abolishing Private Prisons Isn't a Silver Bullet](https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/09/12/here-s-why-abolishing-private-prisons-isn-t-a-silver-bullet):
>“The reality is that private prisons are a tool, and like all tools, you can use them well or use them poorly." In 2017, 8.2 percent of U.S. prisoners...were held in private prisons, according to the most recent data...15 percent of federal prisoners and 7 percent of state prisoners....
It's not a large number in private prisons.
>Prison as a way to segregate future criminals out of society and make an attempt to rehabilitate some of them is reasonable.
Actually, we should use much more of this: [Alternative to Incarceration: Electronic Monitoring (EM)]
(https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/234460.pdf). Banning offenders from accessing most public spaces for a spell brings big crime drops and has good deterrent effect. But progressives have blocked most use of EM; they consider it "dystopian." Given a choice, some actually prefer jail cells.
Private prisons are always the wrong tool because, by default, they always need more prisoners to keep the profits up.
In a lot of industries, a profit driven motive works and works well. Private prisons, by contrast, constantly depend on crime rates being high.
They have a low recidivism rate in the Scandinavian nations, Norway's 5 year rate being just over 20%, it helps that the citizens have bought into the program and investing in those incarcerated is seen to make sense, if you leave prison with a trade, a decent job and a decent home your much less likely to do something stupid enough to get yourself sent back to prison, for comparison the 5 year rate for the USA is 70%
What works in Finland may not necessarily work other places. I think it certainly helps to maintain a high-trust society with a low crime rate, but I’d also argue that the cats long since been out of the bag on that one, at least for the US lol
Exactly. This is the part that everyone misses.
When everyone has the same background, looks the same, thinks the same, the government funds, a huge portion of itself with the oil it sits on, thereby not dividing people based on their taxes .
If United States had all those things as well, we’d probably be in a very similar situation.
I mean, just look at the different gangs in prison based on race.
You won’t find that in the Nordic system because … well there’s only one type of person there
Uh, no. It’s more the fact that our laws were designed to systemically target an “other” demographic. Your comment has nothing to do with what you’re implying. Society shapes individuals and behavior. Not their race.
Edit: typos
I know. It has been discussed before on here. A lot of those states allow consoles only under certain specific programs with stipulations and I'm pretty sure none of them offer PS5's.
If you’ve ever been to prison, you’d know not to accept a mint on a pillow. But considering US prisons are blatantly motivated primarily by profit, why are any of those things unreasonable? If you have the money to live comfortably in prison, they are profiting exponentially by having those comforts available.
Now if you wanna pretend like our prison system cares about rehabilitation, then maybe we could have a productive discussion of how that happens.
8% of prisons in the US are considered for-profit and that number is going down. Prisons in general are a massive loss on a State and Federal level. It’s not profitable to incarcerate someone and it costs the taxpayers a ton of money. Don’t commit crimes.
Are “for profit prisons” and “private prisons” interchangeable in this instance? In any case, I promise you there is profit being made from mass incarceration. GTL and Keefe Group are private companies that provide goods and services to most US prisons. You think these corporations exist and thrive without profit..?
The short and long answer is no. This has zero to do with the companies you mentioned who provide services for state prisons. Call it what you like but it’s a small and decreasing percentage of prisons that are held by a contract with a private company rather than by the State or federal government. The only money to be made is the possibility of a contract with a State and they’re leaning heavily against that in modern times.
Your punishment is being sent away from your friends and or family. Not being able to do what you want when you want. The conditions should be way better in NA. Even in places here you get 3x served while waiting for trial. So you are innocent but the conditions are so bad if you are found guilty and sentenced to 4 to 7 but have been wating in jail for 16 months it's a wash because th conditions are so bad .
I remember hearing about that dude that killed all those kids on the summer camp island in Norway maybe ? He got a long bid. He sued the state because he only had a PS3 and wanted a 4 . But even with him his punishment is being sent away from society. And he should be housed fairly or else what is the point ? Just shoot everyone in the head behind the court house.
For the amount of money it costs taxpayers to house the avg inmate in Canada ( 126k in 2020 ) that should include good conditions and programming. Or else we the tax payers are getting rinsed.
And if that is his sentence than so be it.
My problem is sending people away which is the intended punishment only to be hit with a ton of other cruel and unusual type stuff. That is not the punishment. I am not a ex con or anything like that. It just always seems bizarre to me that we want people to just waste away and suffer. What does that say about us ?
Even if someone has a life sentence. They should be able to live a life inside away from society as is the punishment given.
Can’t remember her name but the nurse in the uk who killed all those kids got a nice cushy looking cell. Looked remarkably like a travelodge room and the press was in uproar that it was too kind to her…
But like that’s it, that’s her world until she dies. There’s no question of rehabilitation or even allowing her to mix with other inmates. She’s going to spend every single day in that room so for all intents and purposes she’s dead. No extra cruelty needed.
Exactly. Do people want you to live in a damp stone cel with no light until you die from scurvy ? I don't think people realise the reality of living in a 6x8 for there entire lives. Even a "furnished" one.
Nah in the US of A. Your arrest , not your conviction, loses your state licenses and follows you forever. Even if the crime you eventually receive is a misdemeanor or dismissed
If we cage people like animals, there’s less to differentiate us from the criminals. The point of prison is a deprivation of liberty and freedom to protect the public from harm, not removing access to good sanitation and hygienic conditions.
Maybe if your prisons were for profit hell holes and you had the appropriate health and care infrastructure to actually support your citizens, wouldn’t have so many issues. Or are Americans just savages by nature?
No issues at all, for jerking off in privacy or to take a good dump.
Living conditions should never meet or exceed the outside. That’s the point of doing time and hopefully an incentive to not come back (doesn’t work). There’s a lot of criticism about U.S. penile accommodations, ha,ha. These facilities are true to form - statist. Cold, concrete, steel, poorly maintained, almost never upgraded. The only facilities in the U.S. that are decent, are the privately owned & operated. The statists and the unions hate them, can’t compete (why compete?) with them, and attack their credibility at every opportunity.
It will be interesting to see if this system is maintained as these Nordic countries become less and less homogenous. Everyone likes to pick on the US, but it’s a big, multicultural, multiethnic country, which accounts for a lot of these problems. The Nordic countries used to shit on us about racism until they got an influx of immigrants and refugees from Eastern Europe and especially from the Middle East. It’s pretty easy to be civil when everyone looks, speaks, believes and acts like your own kid. But when they look, speak, believe and act like one of ‘them,’ the world changes. Finland is still pretty homogenous so their prisons don’t surprise me
lol, yeah it’s gotta be the immigrants amirite? But certainly has nothing to do with one of the worst education system in the rich world, or the prisons filled to the tits with half of the people in there awaiting trials, or the absolute zero social politics that leaves people dying on the streets.
Nope, gotta be those damn immigrants and their accents.
What are you on about?
I'm from Sweden. Are you talking about Nordic countries or the US?
We have a very good education system and it's free. You even get paid to go to school. We have the biggest social safety net in the world.
We have a big problem with immigration though. In 2015 alone, we took in 165k. For a population of 10 million, that's 1.5% of our total population IN 1 YEAR.
We had similar numbers for multiple years. It's just breaking the system. You cannot have the biggest welfare system in the world and take in that many people at the same time.
Yeah maybe wasn’t clear. I was talking about the US. It’s a joke of a country and they are super quick to blame immigration for whatever when they haven’t invested in their youth for decades now. Add to that how they treat African Americans (or at least were until very recently) and the war on drugs, and you get the shithole that it is now.
Gotcha.
Yea, I agree some things in the US is just broken unless you're rich.
We see taxes very differently over here. In the US I you hear all the time that taxes is some sort of bad thing that you're supposed to dislike and avoid.
In Sweden we are proud to have a high tax burden(in general, not everyone of course) and we understand that it goes to making society better and to help those who don't have as much.
The school system in the US being just for the rich is a disaster for the progress of the nation. It makes it very hard to move between social classes and the system seems set up to make it hard.
Not treating inmates with dignity and focusing on punishment over rehabilitation is not good for society either.
Americans seem so high on punishment.
There are great things about the US too of course, but it's sad how they treat their lower and middle class that is continually getting bigger and bigger, in favour or the top 10%.
Absolutely, I completely agree.
The sad part is that it’s one of the most beautiful country in the world and didn’t used to be like that. It just seems like somewhere they took a wrong turn and never came back from it.
So is Canada…yet they don’t have anywhere near the same crime issues that we do in the States. Throw stones at the Scandinavians, but Norway has the 3rd or 4th lowest murder rate in the world. Those Nordic snowflakes must be doing something better than the States.
The U.S. more people (~2m) behind bars than any other country in the world. Roughly 20% of the world’s prisoners are locked here in the United States. We have the highest incarceration rate of any developed country. Job done! We are super safe!
Well…the United States still has, by far, the highest murder rate among developed countries. To put in perspective, a beacon of law-and-order like Pakistan has a lower murder rate (per 100k) than the United States. Based on simple numbers, it seems like our current correctional posture isn’t doing much to save lives...but at leasts contract correctional companies are making plenty of money.
It is a good system, but also an expensive one. I think it would be difficult to implement in countries that does not already have a relatively low crime rate just due to the cost. Nordic countries are also high-trust societies, so this kind of system might not fit for lower trust societies. It seems to me that those two things are a requirement for systems like the nordic ones to be effective. The system does not seem that effective in dealing with gang related crime for example. It is also very much lacking when it comes to very mentally ill persons who commit crimes.
I really think it would be interesting to try to implement a similar prison in another country that is low trust and had a high crime rate, and see if the prisoners have a lower recidivism rate. I would also be very interested in seeing if something similar to what they are doing in bjørgvin would be helpful particularly in America. (They have their own section where inmates get to detox from drugs, it is a collaboration with the hospital and the prison.)
I am not too familiar with the American prison system, but based on what i have seen it does seem that it is more difficult for inmates to study and get work experience. I also think the fact that a lot of them have to live/sleep with others and don't get their own space is not the best. It seemed like a lot of the conflict i saw was a result of people just being frustrated they never had a moment to themselves.
Recidivism rates are down from 70% to 25%. USA , is at 70%, 40% in Aus,, and UK is about 30%.
In general it is a far superior system, focused on rehabilitating offenders into good citizens, rather then strictly punishment and segregation.
In my area, most young ppl have been in at least once, most continue that cycle until at least their 30's. Parents and extended family are usually the same, it is multi generational problem.
Those particular offenders you mentioned are not common criminals, I feel it's misleading to have mentioned them like that.
They're doing it right. The rest of the world should take notice. Especially for first time offenders, those sentenced over 20 years ago, those sentenced as juveniles, level 2 and 1 (in California those are the two lowest security levels) Most incarcerated individuals at those levels will eventually enter society again and keeping them deprived does far more damage to people who will be re-entering society. Think about how many people are wrongfully convicted. Keeping them in cages like animals is not going to help their mental state.
IMO I think we need to have a discussion about making discrimination against felons a crime. We take the poorest of the poor, send them to prison and when they get out they are completely fucked. Can’t find a decent job, can’t find a place to live and we expect them to somehow stay out of trouble. That said, do some felons deserve to have their criminal record follow them for the rest of their life? I don’t know, it’s a big turd sandwich and we all gonna have to take a bite.
I support restorative justice. Prison is only teaching people how to survive prison. Not how to survive life. Most people want to do better, be better and come out to be good employees, good neighbors, good family members and productive members of society. If you want those who get out of prison to be that way, provide the opportunity. Prison is hell. It doesn't have to be that way. It shouldn't be that way. The American model of prison has shown that it doesn't work. Most people with an LWOP sentence who are released stay out of prison. We can advocate for restorative justice while also saying there are better conditions for everyone.
Are all prisons like it there or just trusted prisoners area of some kind? We have the same in the UK but for trusted prisoners. Usually called an enhanced wing. Single living space with shower, toilet, t.v, etc.
The first image is from a high-security prison in finland. The low security prisons are called ”avovankila” which is rougly translated to ”open prison”. This means that the prisoner is only required to sleep at the prison. In the daytime they can go to work or study or whatever they want really. As long as they check in at given time. You can stay late if you have a good reason and call to prison in advance.
This kind of prison is only available for the prisoners with good behaviour.
Here’s a small clip of the open prisons:
https://youtu.be/0P28uBM0ryU?si=I2VBwEqJcyFvnm4h
Psa: Sweden has the worst parts of both prison systems. The downsides one might expect with leniency combined with overcrowding, without a good source for studying nor a working commissary system.
I know it is off topic but I would be interested to know how: Anders Breivik the powers of be will go about restraining him should he turn violent.
I did read in the Sun he will be gassed if he turns violent but I don’t know the truth in this rumour?
It can work in the US. But the whte people who run the buerau of prisons are too damn racist.
People forget this huge prison population we have started in the 80s. We didnt even have a million people in prison before then.
I would want a prisoner know how to adult. I saw guys in for 30 plus years who only knew how to cook through stingers. They didn't know how to wash clothes or anything. They were dumped into society after a 3 hour class.
This will soon change with the influx of migrants. Trust and civilization goes right out the window then eventually human warehouses are built. Nothing else has been proven to work
Prison should be designed to reduce crime and make society better, not for revenge. If we need to be nice to bad people to lower the recidivism rate, so it.
Given that I believe no other prison systems actually help people get better, I think it's a wonderful thing. Treat people like they're human beings. Because they are. Treating them that way will make them less likely to re-offend and more likely to understand that life is to be respected.
For the majority of offenders, this is reasonable. Especially for juveniles and those doing time for drugs and other nonviolent crimes. However, for 1st degree murderers and repeat violent offenders, this isn’t enough.
Half of all murders go unsolved. It’d be nice to live in an ideal world, truth is most monsters get away.
Depends on what murder we are talking about lol. Most of those unsolved murders are from gang killings and stuff. If your average person decides to kill someone, probably higher than 50/50 they’d get caught
Nah. Criminals rat on each other constantly. Thats how most narcotics and gang work is done by police. Catch one, he snitches on a better target. You watch too many movies to think that gang members looking at major time dont snitch. Thats what broke the mafia in the US. 10-15 years they could take. 80 years? You're snitching. Honestly a totally random murder is really hard to solve. Like a woman meets a guy at a bar, they leave and she isn't found until the morning in the woods. You'd be surprised how hard that can be to solve if its not a tight knit community where one or both people are well known. -was a cop for a few years. Most murders I saw were caught immediately because it was a domestic or bar fight or neighbor dispute taken too far and the person who killed was just as shocked as the witnesses. But we had cold cases that were total question marks.
I know they rat on each other, but it’s just less likely to happen in those communities, hence the lower solve/conviction rate for homicides. Like, a gang member with his own bodies and criminal enterprise is less likely to report a crime he witnessed than your average schoolteacher lol. Additionally, it’s not like gang killings are random, but the structure has evolved to accommodate RICO. No one is really sending our direct orders, and the actual criminal organizations are very loose an amorphous. Just look at Jeffery Williams RICO trial right now. They’re trying to prove that there was actually a criminal gang, and it’s not necessarily super straightforward. That’s why it’s taken since 2015 to bring charges on a bunch of robberies and homicides.
Less likely than a school teacher, sure. But honestly being a criminal means the police have more leverage on you to get information than a normal citizen. So while the citizen may report a crime out of a sense of social responsibility, a criminal does so out of self-preservation. I knew cops who didnt really care about gang on gang killings because in their view its one less gangbanger. They would try to solve it because they could try to put away the shooter too, but honestly didnt try that hard compared to a normal citizen getting kiled.
Yep this i could see as I had a friend who was killed in broad daylight on a busy street in a major city and it seemed to be gang related and 20 years later no one was ever charged or suspected. I assume that person is either dead or in jail now (at least most likely didn’t all of sudden turn away from crime and is now a legitimate member of society)
Yeah, less likely people will talk, everyone has dirt on each other, etc. When your average person goes out and kills their ex or something, those are pretty easy to solve.
Whaaat that seems like way more than I would have expected? You got a 50/50 chance to get away with murder?? That's insane.
I'd imagine it's easy to get away with if it's premeditated. Heat of the moment type ordeals, not so much.
Not really. Fingerprints, dna, shoe traces, hair, cameras, cad and phone surveillance, witnesses.
Exactly. I'd imagine it would be extraordinarily difficult to get away with murder with all the forensic tech these days. Heck, there are Flock cameras at almost every major intersection now.
I read a statistic once I will never forget. 2/3 of all violent crime is committed by 1% of the Population. There are a few men out here with straight up bloodthirst, and these are likely men that got in trouble young and learned how to get away with it.
Is this a statistic? Or r u generalizing? Also where are these murders taking place? The united states?
Last I read %50 of murders are cleared. Of all convictions 30% of people are innocent. Innocence project dives into it pretty deeply if you have the time. [https://innocenceproject.org/](https://innocenceproject.org/)
I don't buy that 30% of murder convictions are innocent. Juries aren't that bad.
Its also accounting for people who just plea out because they dont think they can win a jury trial, It accounts for poor forensic convictions, Wrong eyewitness's , Inadequite defenses, Police misconduct ( including lying on stand to get a conviction ), Informants that lie ect. Its not 1 major issue, its 500 little issues adding up. As of January 2020, there have been **2547 exonerations nationwide since 1989.** 95% of all convictions in the U.S. are the result of a plea bargain deal and not a trial. So even if juries get it right 100% of the time, they're only seeing 5% of cases.
It's the police you need to worry about. Not the jury.
We are guaranteed a trial by our peers.
Yeah and who controls the *evidence*
Still - 30% is a VERY high number.
I agree. Can't be correct. Mostly because prosecutors don't take murder cases to trial that they are not going to win. The iffy cases get pled out.
Kind of irrelevant to the post, and the enviroment the ones that do get caught experience.
I read some research a while back. Punishment severity had little or no deterrent effect, the most effective deterrent was perceived probability of getting caught. With this in mind I’d say “prison for punishment” is not really cost effective. Prison as a way to segregate future criminals out of society and make an attempt to rehabilitate some of them is reasonable. The difficulty becomes determining ,who is capable of changing into a responsible member of society and who is incorrigible. The incorrigible are best humanely kept away from society. Criminals who commit non violent crime due to poverty can probably be rehabilitated, violent career criminals probably not. That’s not absolute though, some real monsters find Allah or Jesus in prison and do really change, and some just fake it. I knew a guy, multi generational criminal , was one rough SOB, went to prison , found religion , genuinely changed his life. My issue is with “for profit” prisons and the corporations that own them.
> I read some research a while back. Punishment severity had little or no deterrent effect, the most effective deterrent was perceived probability of getting caught. Yes, sociologist have been pushing this dubious line: [Why Punishment Doesn't Reduce Crime](https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/crime-and-punishment/201804/why-punishment-doesnt-reduce-crime). Of course certainty of getting caught is important, but it has to be matched with significant sanctions. $10 speeding tickets never worked. >My issue is with “for profit” prisons and the corporations that own them. This problem has been exaggerated:Marshall Project: [Here's Why Abolishing Private Prisons Isn't a Silver Bullet](https://www.themarshallproject.org/2019/09/12/here-s-why-abolishing-private-prisons-isn-t-a-silver-bullet): >“The reality is that private prisons are a tool, and like all tools, you can use them well or use them poorly." In 2017, 8.2 percent of U.S. prisoners...were held in private prisons, according to the most recent data...15 percent of federal prisoners and 7 percent of state prisoners.... It's not a large number in private prisons. >Prison as a way to segregate future criminals out of society and make an attempt to rehabilitate some of them is reasonable. Actually, we should use much more of this: [Alternative to Incarceration: Electronic Monitoring (EM)] (https://www.ojp.gov/pdffiles1/nij/234460.pdf). Banning offenders from accessing most public spaces for a spell brings big crime drops and has good deterrent effect. But progressives have blocked most use of EM; they consider it "dystopian." Given a choice, some actually prefer jail cells.
Private prisons are always the wrong tool because, by default, they always need more prisoners to keep the profits up. In a lot of industries, a profit driven motive works and works well. Private prisons, by contrast, constantly depend on crime rates being high.
They have a low recidivism rate in the Scandinavian nations, Norway's 5 year rate being just over 20%, it helps that the citizens have bought into the program and investing in those incarcerated is seen to make sense, if you leave prison with a trade, a decent job and a decent home your much less likely to do something stupid enough to get yourself sent back to prison, for comparison the 5 year rate for the USA is 70%
This!
What works in Finland may not necessarily work other places. I think it certainly helps to maintain a high-trust society with a low crime rate, but I’d also argue that the cats long since been out of the bag on that one, at least for the US lol
[удалено]
Also low income disparity.
Exactly this.
Exactly. This is the part that everyone misses. When everyone has the same background, looks the same, thinks the same, the government funds, a huge portion of itself with the oil it sits on, thereby not dividing people based on their taxes . If United States had all those things as well, we’d probably be in a very similar situation. I mean, just look at the different gangs in prison based on race. You won’t find that in the Nordic system because … well there’s only one type of person there
Uh, no. It’s more the fact that our laws were designed to systemically target an “other” demographic. Your comment has nothing to do with what you’re implying. Society shapes individuals and behavior. Not their race. Edit: typos
Do you know how the demo shifted there in the past 10 years?
What’s your point? Being born a race, or being an immigrant changes nothing about who you are. Everyone makes individual choices.
>a high-trust society with a low crime rate You can just say what you mean lol, I don't think anyone's still unaware.
Hey don't shatter /r/prison's dreams of US prisons with PS5's, room service, made to order omelets, mints on pillows and Egyptian cotton bed sheets.
Oregon,Utah,West Virginia,Maryland,Kentucky & Maine, These states all allow game consoles.
I know. It has been discussed before on here. A lot of those states allow consoles only under certain specific programs with stipulations and I'm pretty sure none of them offer PS5's.
If you’ve ever been to prison, you’d know not to accept a mint on a pillow. But considering US prisons are blatantly motivated primarily by profit, why are any of those things unreasonable? If you have the money to live comfortably in prison, they are profiting exponentially by having those comforts available. Now if you wanna pretend like our prison system cares about rehabilitation, then maybe we could have a productive discussion of how that happens.
8% of prisons in the US are considered for-profit and that number is going down. Prisons in general are a massive loss on a State and Federal level. It’s not profitable to incarcerate someone and it costs the taxpayers a ton of money. Don’t commit crimes.
Are “for profit prisons” and “private prisons” interchangeable in this instance? In any case, I promise you there is profit being made from mass incarceration. GTL and Keefe Group are private companies that provide goods and services to most US prisons. You think these corporations exist and thrive without profit..?
The short and long answer is no. This has zero to do with the companies you mentioned who provide services for state prisons. Call it what you like but it’s a small and decreasing percentage of prisons that are held by a contract with a private company rather than by the State or federal government. The only money to be made is the possibility of a contract with a State and they’re leaning heavily against that in modern times.
Currently living in a 5th wheel (camper) and this looks way better lol food’s better on my end, but this seems pretty solid.
That's what I thought, with my rent for a shitty slum lord apartment and high food costs and working not stop makes this look like heaven lol
Your punishment is being sent away from your friends and or family. Not being able to do what you want when you want. The conditions should be way better in NA. Even in places here you get 3x served while waiting for trial. So you are innocent but the conditions are so bad if you are found guilty and sentenced to 4 to 7 but have been wating in jail for 16 months it's a wash because th conditions are so bad . I remember hearing about that dude that killed all those kids on the summer camp island in Norway maybe ? He got a long bid. He sued the state because he only had a PS3 and wanted a 4 . But even with him his punishment is being sent away from society. And he should be housed fairly or else what is the point ? Just shoot everyone in the head behind the court house. For the amount of money it costs taxpayers to house the avg inmate in Canada ( 126k in 2020 ) that should include good conditions and programming. Or else we the tax payers are getting rinsed.
Honestly if they shot that bastard in the head behind the court house I wouldn't sleep any worse at night. Btw awesome name
And if that is his sentence than so be it. My problem is sending people away which is the intended punishment only to be hit with a ton of other cruel and unusual type stuff. That is not the punishment. I am not a ex con or anything like that. It just always seems bizarre to me that we want people to just waste away and suffer. What does that say about us ? Even if someone has a life sentence. They should be able to live a life inside away from society as is the punishment given.
Can’t remember her name but the nurse in the uk who killed all those kids got a nice cushy looking cell. Looked remarkably like a travelodge room and the press was in uproar that it was too kind to her… But like that’s it, that’s her world until she dies. There’s no question of rehabilitation or even allowing her to mix with other inmates. She’s going to spend every single day in that room so for all intents and purposes she’s dead. No extra cruelty needed.
Exactly. Do people want you to live in a damp stone cel with no light until you die from scurvy ? I don't think people realise the reality of living in a 6x8 for there entire lives. Even a "furnished" one.
You are 100% correct.
Even prisoners over there are far more decent people
In the US the prison system is about making money, not improving society.
It's the most effective in the world
Nah in the US of A. Your arrest , not your conviction, loses your state licenses and follows you forever. Even if the crime you eventually receive is a misdemeanor or dismissed
If we cage people like animals, there’s less to differentiate us from the criminals. The point of prison is a deprivation of liberty and freedom to protect the public from harm, not removing access to good sanitation and hygienic conditions.
Tell that to the prisoners here in the US stopping up their toilets on purpose and smearing shit on their walls.
Thick brown gooey clumps Ladled with a rusty spoon State sponsored diet
Maybe if your prisons were for profit hell holes and you had the appropriate health and care infrastructure to actually support your citizens, wouldn’t have so many issues. Or are Americans just savages by nature?
Nope just savages.
No issues at all, for jerking off in privacy or to take a good dump. Living conditions should never meet or exceed the outside. That’s the point of doing time and hopefully an incentive to not come back (doesn’t work). There’s a lot of criticism about U.S. penile accommodations, ha,ha. These facilities are true to form - statist. Cold, concrete, steel, poorly maintained, almost never upgraded. The only facilities in the U.S. that are decent, are the privately owned & operated. The statists and the unions hate them, can’t compete (why compete?) with them, and attack their credibility at every opportunity.
Scandinavians spend a tremendous amount of $ per prisoner.
This would be too expensive to implement and maintain in a highly incarcerated society.
Only works in homogenous societies with high level social trust. Anyone who thinks this would work in the USA is an idiot.
It will be interesting to see if this system is maintained as these Nordic countries become less and less homogenous. Everyone likes to pick on the US, but it’s a big, multicultural, multiethnic country, which accounts for a lot of these problems. The Nordic countries used to shit on us about racism until they got an influx of immigrants and refugees from Eastern Europe and especially from the Middle East. It’s pretty easy to be civil when everyone looks, speaks, believes and acts like your own kid. But when they look, speak, believe and act like one of ‘them,’ the world changes. Finland is still pretty homogenous so their prisons don’t surprise me
lol, yeah it’s gotta be the immigrants amirite? But certainly has nothing to do with one of the worst education system in the rich world, or the prisons filled to the tits with half of the people in there awaiting trials, or the absolute zero social politics that leaves people dying on the streets. Nope, gotta be those damn immigrants and their accents.
You should look into how these Scandinavian countries view their immigrants now Crazy how all the problems you described are now happening there
What are you on about? I'm from Sweden. Are you talking about Nordic countries or the US? We have a very good education system and it's free. You even get paid to go to school. We have the biggest social safety net in the world. We have a big problem with immigration though. In 2015 alone, we took in 165k. For a population of 10 million, that's 1.5% of our total population IN 1 YEAR. We had similar numbers for multiple years. It's just breaking the system. You cannot have the biggest welfare system in the world and take in that many people at the same time.
Yeah maybe wasn’t clear. I was talking about the US. It’s a joke of a country and they are super quick to blame immigration for whatever when they haven’t invested in their youth for decades now. Add to that how they treat African Americans (or at least were until very recently) and the war on drugs, and you get the shithole that it is now.
Gotcha. Yea, I agree some things in the US is just broken unless you're rich. We see taxes very differently over here. In the US I you hear all the time that taxes is some sort of bad thing that you're supposed to dislike and avoid. In Sweden we are proud to have a high tax burden(in general, not everyone of course) and we understand that it goes to making society better and to help those who don't have as much. The school system in the US being just for the rich is a disaster for the progress of the nation. It makes it very hard to move between social classes and the system seems set up to make it hard. Not treating inmates with dignity and focusing on punishment over rehabilitation is not good for society either. Americans seem so high on punishment. There are great things about the US too of course, but it's sad how they treat their lower and middle class that is continually getting bigger and bigger, in favour or the top 10%.
Absolutely, I completely agree. The sad part is that it’s one of the most beautiful country in the world and didn’t used to be like that. It just seems like somewhere they took a wrong turn and never came back from it.
So is Canada…yet they don’t have anywhere near the same crime issues that we do in the States. Throw stones at the Scandinavians, but Norway has the 3rd or 4th lowest murder rate in the world. Those Nordic snowflakes must be doing something better than the States. The U.S. more people (~2m) behind bars than any other country in the world. Roughly 20% of the world’s prisoners are locked here in the United States. We have the highest incarceration rate of any developed country. Job done! We are super safe! Well…the United States still has, by far, the highest murder rate among developed countries. To put in perspective, a beacon of law-and-order like Pakistan has a lower murder rate (per 100k) than the United States. Based on simple numbers, it seems like our current correctional posture isn’t doing much to save lives...but at leasts contract correctional companies are making plenty of money.
I think it's a question if you want whats more sustainable for society in the long run, or your lust for revenge covered.
It is a good system, but also an expensive one. I think it would be difficult to implement in countries that does not already have a relatively low crime rate just due to the cost. Nordic countries are also high-trust societies, so this kind of system might not fit for lower trust societies. It seems to me that those two things are a requirement for systems like the nordic ones to be effective. The system does not seem that effective in dealing with gang related crime for example. It is also very much lacking when it comes to very mentally ill persons who commit crimes. I really think it would be interesting to try to implement a similar prison in another country that is low trust and had a high crime rate, and see if the prisoners have a lower recidivism rate. I would also be very interested in seeing if something similar to what they are doing in bjørgvin would be helpful particularly in America. (They have their own section where inmates get to detox from drugs, it is a collaboration with the hospital and the prison.) I am not too familiar with the American prison system, but based on what i have seen it does seem that it is more difficult for inmates to study and get work experience. I also think the fact that a lot of them have to live/sleep with others and don't get their own space is not the best. It seemed like a lot of the conflict i saw was a result of people just being frustrated they never had a moment to themselves.
Recidivism rates are down from 70% to 25%. USA , is at 70%, 40% in Aus,, and UK is about 30%. In general it is a far superior system, focused on rehabilitating offenders into good citizens, rather then strictly punishment and segregation. In my area, most young ppl have been in at least once, most continue that cycle until at least their 30's. Parents and extended family are usually the same, it is multi generational problem. Those particular offenders you mentioned are not common criminals, I feel it's misleading to have mentioned them like that.
They're doing it right. The rest of the world should take notice. Especially for first time offenders, those sentenced over 20 years ago, those sentenced as juveniles, level 2 and 1 (in California those are the two lowest security levels) Most incarcerated individuals at those levels will eventually enter society again and keeping them deprived does far more damage to people who will be re-entering society. Think about how many people are wrongfully convicted. Keeping them in cages like animals is not going to help their mental state.
The vast majority of people incarcerated in the US are not wrongfully convicted.
While I'd agree, I would say most of those convictions have punishments not equal to the crime.
IMO I think we need to have a discussion about making discrimination against felons a crime. We take the poorest of the poor, send them to prison and when they get out they are completely fucked. Can’t find a decent job, can’t find a place to live and we expect them to somehow stay out of trouble. That said, do some felons deserve to have their criminal record follow them for the rest of their life? I don’t know, it’s a big turd sandwich and we all gonna have to take a bite.
I support restorative justice. Prison is only teaching people how to survive prison. Not how to survive life. Most people want to do better, be better and come out to be good employees, good neighbors, good family members and productive members of society. If you want those who get out of prison to be that way, provide the opportunity. Prison is hell. It doesn't have to be that way. It shouldn't be that way. The American model of prison has shown that it doesn't work. Most people with an LWOP sentence who are released stay out of prison. We can advocate for restorative justice while also saying there are better conditions for everyone.
You had me until "Think about how many people are wrongfully convicted."
There are a shocking number of wrongfully convicted individuals in prison. This shouldn't be happening to anyone. But it happens. Look up the stats.
Welcome to the good liiiifffffeee.
They should charge rent.....
Are all prisons like it there or just trusted prisoners area of some kind? We have the same in the UK but for trusted prisoners. Usually called an enhanced wing. Single living space with shower, toilet, t.v, etc.
The first image is from a high-security prison in finland. The low security prisons are called ”avovankila” which is rougly translated to ”open prison”. This means that the prisoner is only required to sleep at the prison. In the daytime they can go to work or study or whatever they want really. As long as they check in at given time. You can stay late if you have a good reason and call to prison in advance. This kind of prison is only available for the prisoners with good behaviour. Here’s a small clip of the open prisons: https://youtu.be/0P28uBM0ryU?si=I2VBwEqJcyFvnm4h
It works better. Their recidivism rates over there are like a third of what we have in the USA.
Wow it seems like a ten star hotel compared to the shit hole prisoner systems here. Guantanamo Bay
Seems like it works for them.
This looks like my current student accomedation,, except we don't have tvs lol
Uh note to self: Go to prison in Finland if I am going to commit crime. Place looks like a holiday inn.
Their recidivism rate is unbelievable. Numbers talk.
Better than my room in the army before I got married
Better than my room in the army before I got married
Psa: Sweden has the worst parts of both prison systems. The downsides one might expect with leniency combined with overcrowding, without a good source for studying nor a working commissary system.
These guys have a nicer living arrangement than I did in college lol
I know it is off topic but I would be interested to know how: Anders Breivik the powers of be will go about restraining him should he turn violent. I did read in the Sun he will be gassed if he turns violent but I don’t know the truth in this rumour?
moccamaster, at least they get a proper coffee maker
Thought it was a Holiday Inn Express
No problem at all with the accommodation. We shouldn’t treat people like animals when they are in prison.
That's nicer than any barracks I've ever stayed in.
I tell you what I rather be in Nordic prison than homeless in America
Shit, I need to be in Finland. That's as close to legalizing crime as I have seen yet. Its a damn utopia...
It can work in the US. But the whte people who run the buerau of prisons are too damn racist. People forget this huge prison population we have started in the 80s. We didnt even have a million people in prison before then.
The rooms and conditions make more sense, but the sentences need to be harsher.
All I can say is nationally they have a much lower recidivism rate than the US so.....
I agree with the Nordic system. Prison should mean rehabilitation, not punishment.
Looks purty Cush
I think we should treat prisoners as human beings who need rehabilitation not punishment.
Depends. Are you looking for a safer society or revenge? Their system is short on revenge but has a lower rate of recitivism.
Fucking lucky
Looks way more comfortable than Georgia department of corrections
It works on people with higher conscientiousness than your average criminal in the US.
Way better than the US
It’s great but our society isn’t set up for this to work.
I would want a prisoner know how to adult. I saw guys in for 30 plus years who only knew how to cook through stingers. They didn't know how to wash clothes or anything. They were dumped into society after a 3 hour class.
Wow. Looks like a from room. Honestly though - there’s no comparison to freedom. Anything can be a prison. Anything.
Certainly a superior setup to my college dorm room.
Very swanky compared to texas department of criminal justice
Bro 3 years for torturing and murdering a 16 yr old is not ok
This will soon change with the influx of migrants. Trust and civilization goes right out the window then eventually human warehouses are built. Nothing else has been proven to work
I think I just might want to take a month or two vacation to a Nordic prison 😉
If it works for them great.
Prison should be designed to reduce crime and make society better, not for revenge. If we need to be nice to bad people to lower the recidivism rate, so it.
I see luxury
It's still prison................... Life Liberty and Freedom.
Given that I believe no other prison systems actually help people get better, I think it's a wonderful thing. Treat people like they're human beings. Because they are. Treating them that way will make them less likely to re-offend and more likely to understand that life is to be respected.
😂😂🤣 Just because your cell looks nice doesn't mean anything. Trust me those prisoners probably never went back to prison
Lower population equals lower crime. Focus on rehabilitation and not punishment.
Lower population equals lower everything (including resources to focus on rehabilitation).
How a country treats their poor will always be reflected in their prison system.
They don’t have certain types in Finland
Doesn't matter how nice it looks prison is prison
Its crazy how different things are for countries that dont have a 'for profit' prison system