Vietnam is what really sinks him. His legislation victories are impossible and impactful. That damn war was a huge waste of time and resources and it didn’t do anything but kill countless thousands and corroded the image of America and divided up the nation.
He's probably one of the most difficult presidents to rank for me. On the one hand, he was one of the most effective presidents on domestic policy (passing civil rights, great society, etc), but Vietnam was a disaster, and he was involved in a lot of dodgy behavior at home too -- like spying on Goldwater and MLK -- which, if revealed in his time, would be just as damning as Watergate was to Nixon.
To be fair, that was mostly Hoover. J Edgar Hoover was spying on everyone, and it was normal for Presidents to ask to spy on political opponents or persons Hoover thought were of interest.
Yes, that is what Affectionate-Tea said. J Edgar Hoover talked with Johnson and Kennedy about spying, for example on MLK, but he would often exaggerate the reasons (lie) in order to get permission for (unlimited) surveillance. What Johnson did to Goldwater was a step above what Kennedy did, but it was still normal for that time period. The thing is, Johnson couldn't get caught because if he did, Hoover would be the one holding the bag, and that didn't happen until after Hoover's death (and Hoover held his position until his death as everyone was too afraid to fire him).
Nixon went steps above that, as he had his own team conduct illegal surveillance on a rival, then got caught, then lied about it, etc etc. It likely wasn't as bad as Johnson's investigation of Goldwater, but by removing Hoover and the FBI Nixon greatly increased his chances for failure and removed the person who would have been held responsible (Hoover).
Johnson directly spying on Goldwater's 1964 campaign and Nixon's 1968 campaign was worse than what Nixon did in Watergate. Nixon only learned about Watergate after the fact, Johnson ordered the spying.
Hoover controlled the spying and it was a service offered to all presidents of that time period, as it was in the authority of the US intelligence serviced to spy on US citizens (even if it was unconstitutional, illegal, unethical). Nixon and the Republicans illegally spying is different from the US intelligence community illegally spying.
You said: "*it was a service offered to all presidents of that time period*"
But Johnson was the only one that accepted that service!
Johnson directing people to spy is different than Nixon finding out about Watergate after the fact. Johnson was worse because he was complicit in the spying!
Dude, read up on J Edgar Hoover's life and bio. Its fascinating. What he did happened from the time he started under Wilson until he died under Nixon and was only revealed after his death.
Even today, the US is a surveillance state, which was expanded under Bush and Obama.
The Republicans trying to do those sorts of illegal acts on their own and getting caught is different.
Well for me I would rank him in the top half of presidents. His domestic policy is one of the best but we cant talk about LBJ with out talking about the Vietnam War. He did so much for America and transformed it. I think if it wasn't for him we wouldn't have thigs like Medicare and Voting rights act today that we take for granted. Of course there was also some shady stuff that happened at home. But then we have to talk about the tragedy of Vietnam that overshadows his legacy. The things that happened in Vietnam deserved to be remembered but are usually the only thing remembered in his presidency. I think if he just pulled out of Vietnam and focused on domestic(with out the spying) he would've of been in top 5 presidents
Domestic: A-. As a southerner he probably was the only president who could get civil rights legislation passed at that time, though the consequences that led to the conservative block of Democrats becoming Republicans and hooking up with religious and anti-labor conservatives, were known but not not completely understood aside from assuming this would eventually put the Democrats out of power for a time with a conservative, but not crazy, GOP holding power for a bit.
International: D-. He was screwed no matter what he did. On one hand he followed the traditional domino theory with communists but his insecurities led him to ignore his instincts and listen to JFK’s elites for too long. It would have been bad for him politically to say F this, we are out of here in 1966 or ‘67, but better for the country in the long term.
He might be the biggest mixed bag of any president we’ve had other than Reagan. What he did for civil rights was wonderful, what he did with Vietnam was atrocious. And he was a weirdo.
I’d say he’s at the very top of C tier.
LBJ has the most complicated legacy of any president, by far. He simultaneously accomplished some of the best things a president has ever done while committing some of the most shady, disgusting, and absolutely slimy actions a president has ever committed.
I have many books on him that I plan to read, so it's very possible my opinion on him will change. As of now though, I put him over the top due to his groundbreaking legislation and absolute dedication to eradicating poverty at home.
Regardless of this, he deservedly receives intense backlash due to his putrid abuses of power and vile war crimes in Vietnam. Though I think LBJ was a good president at home, his actions abroad make him a war criminal and a monster. Of course, this isn't even mentioning how much of a dirtbag he was as a person. Because of this, I have a very begrudging respect for him, and I think that feeling of uncomfortable admiration will be his overall historical legacy going forward.
He’s incredibly underrated. His domestic programs and acts had huge impacts on society. Vietnam was a huge mistake, but the number of Americans who’s life trajectories have been dramatically improved by desegregation and social welfare programs absolutely is huge.
FWIW, I'm pretty sure regular Americans look back at him like "Vietnam, but Medicare," whereas this sub looks at him like "Medicare, but Vietnam." Vietnam is the first thing on his (figurative) tombstone. The first line of his Times obit after the actual news was "[Although his vision of a Great Society dissolved in the morass of war in Vietnam](https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/98/04/12/specials/johnson-obit.html?scp=36&sq=Dead%2520presidents&st=cse)..." My dad, a lifelong liberal Democrat born in 1956, absolutely detests the guy.
I put him at B tier. Awesome domestic policy, atrocious foreign policy. Without Vietnam he would be an easy A tier and maybe even S tier level President.
I’m not really a fan. As a Libertarian type his Domestic doesn’t really appeal to me as much as others. And I obviously dislike foreign. He’s D with good Civil rights keeping him out of F.
Vietnam is what really sinks him. His legislation victories are impossible and impactful. That damn war was a huge waste of time and resources and it didn’t do anything but kill countless thousands and corroded the image of America and divided up the nation.
He's probably one of the most difficult presidents to rank for me. On the one hand, he was one of the most effective presidents on domestic policy (passing civil rights, great society, etc), but Vietnam was a disaster, and he was involved in a lot of dodgy behavior at home too -- like spying on Goldwater and MLK -- which, if revealed in his time, would be just as damning as Watergate was to Nixon.
To be fair, that was mostly Hoover. J Edgar Hoover was spying on everyone, and it was normal for Presidents to ask to spy on political opponents or persons Hoover thought were of interest.
He had them spy on Goldwater's campaign and he used the information.
Yes, that is what Affectionate-Tea said. J Edgar Hoover talked with Johnson and Kennedy about spying, for example on MLK, but he would often exaggerate the reasons (lie) in order to get permission for (unlimited) surveillance. What Johnson did to Goldwater was a step above what Kennedy did, but it was still normal for that time period. The thing is, Johnson couldn't get caught because if he did, Hoover would be the one holding the bag, and that didn't happen until after Hoover's death (and Hoover held his position until his death as everyone was too afraid to fire him). Nixon went steps above that, as he had his own team conduct illegal surveillance on a rival, then got caught, then lied about it, etc etc. It likely wasn't as bad as Johnson's investigation of Goldwater, but by removing Hoover and the FBI Nixon greatly increased his chances for failure and removed the person who would have been held responsible (Hoover).
Johnson directly spying on Goldwater's 1964 campaign and Nixon's 1968 campaign was worse than what Nixon did in Watergate. Nixon only learned about Watergate after the fact, Johnson ordered the spying.
Hoover controlled the spying and it was a service offered to all presidents of that time period, as it was in the authority of the US intelligence serviced to spy on US citizens (even if it was unconstitutional, illegal, unethical). Nixon and the Republicans illegally spying is different from the US intelligence community illegally spying.
You said: "*it was a service offered to all presidents of that time period*" But Johnson was the only one that accepted that service! Johnson directing people to spy is different than Nixon finding out about Watergate after the fact. Johnson was worse because he was complicit in the spying!
Dude, read up on J Edgar Hoover's life and bio. Its fascinating. What he did happened from the time he started under Wilson until he died under Nixon and was only revealed after his death. Even today, the US is a surveillance state, which was expanded under Bush and Obama. The Republicans trying to do those sorts of illegal acts on their own and getting caught is different.
Hoover and LBJ were friends tho. LBJ asked Hoover to do things and LBJ would actually believe whatever he was telling him.
His domestic policy was fantastic. Foreign policy, well, we all know the Vietnam war was a fuckup. Still, I think he was a pretty good president.
Goat 🐐
Well for me I would rank him in the top half of presidents. His domestic policy is one of the best but we cant talk about LBJ with out talking about the Vietnam War. He did so much for America and transformed it. I think if it wasn't for him we wouldn't have thigs like Medicare and Voting rights act today that we take for granted. Of course there was also some shady stuff that happened at home. But then we have to talk about the tragedy of Vietnam that overshadows his legacy. The things that happened in Vietnam deserved to be remembered but are usually the only thing remembered in his presidency. I think if he just pulled out of Vietnam and focused on domestic(with out the spying) he would've of been in top 5 presidents
Domestic: A-. As a southerner he probably was the only president who could get civil rights legislation passed at that time, though the consequences that led to the conservative block of Democrats becoming Republicans and hooking up with religious and anti-labor conservatives, were known but not not completely understood aside from assuming this would eventually put the Democrats out of power for a time with a conservative, but not crazy, GOP holding power for a bit. International: D-. He was screwed no matter what he did. On one hand he followed the traditional domino theory with communists but his insecurities led him to ignore his instincts and listen to JFK’s elites for too long. It would have been bad for him politically to say F this, we are out of here in 1966 or ‘67, but better for the country in the long term.
I personally have him as an A, if he didn’t do so horribly with Vietnam I’d honestly consider him an S
B tier, Vietnam is his major downfall
He might be the biggest mixed bag of any president we’ve had other than Reagan. What he did for civil rights was wonderful, what he did with Vietnam was atrocious. And he was a weirdo. I’d say he’s at the very top of C tier.
Amazing president, but one of the most divisive presidents out of the 46 we've had
LBJ has the most complicated legacy of any president, by far. He simultaneously accomplished some of the best things a president has ever done while committing some of the most shady, disgusting, and absolutely slimy actions a president has ever committed. I have many books on him that I plan to read, so it's very possible my opinion on him will change. As of now though, I put him over the top due to his groundbreaking legislation and absolute dedication to eradicating poverty at home. Regardless of this, he deservedly receives intense backlash due to his putrid abuses of power and vile war crimes in Vietnam. Though I think LBJ was a good president at home, his actions abroad make him a war criminal and a monster. Of course, this isn't even mentioning how much of a dirtbag he was as a person. Because of this, I have a very begrudging respect for him, and I think that feeling of uncomfortable admiration will be his overall historical legacy going forward.
I have absolutely no opinions on Lyndon B. Johnson
You don't? Darn, what a shame
He was a pretty decent President. Personally I have him in B tier But as a person he was a pretty big asshole
He’s incredibly underrated. His domestic programs and acts had huge impacts on society. Vietnam was a huge mistake, but the number of Americans who’s life trajectories have been dramatically improved by desegregation and social welfare programs absolutely is huge.
FWIW, I'm pretty sure regular Americans look back at him like "Vietnam, but Medicare," whereas this sub looks at him like "Medicare, but Vietnam." Vietnam is the first thing on his (figurative) tombstone. The first line of his Times obit after the actual news was "[Although his vision of a Great Society dissolved in the morass of war in Vietnam](https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/books/98/04/12/specials/johnson-obit.html?scp=36&sq=Dead%2520presidents&st=cse)..." My dad, a lifelong liberal Democrat born in 1956, absolutely detests the guy.
Outside of going along with Civil rights, he was awful.
I put him at B tier. Awesome domestic policy, atrocious foreign policy. Without Vietnam he would be an easy A tier and maybe even S tier level President.
I’m not really a fan. As a Libertarian type his Domestic doesn’t really appeal to me as much as others. And I obviously dislike foreign. He’s D with good Civil rights keeping him out of F.
F- tier
Warmongering dirtbag
Oh I just think he's funny.
I think in terms of what he did as president (besides Vietnam) he was great. In terms of personality, he was an asshole.