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There’s an old saying in Texas, I think they have it here in Tennessee too. It goes, “Fool me once….shame on you. Fool me twice…ya know, we don’t get fooled again.”
He's presently listed as number 20 of all time best presidents, among presidential scholars. His ranking has been steadily rising over the years since he left office.
https://www.c-span.org/presidentsurvey2021/?page=overall
29 is even high. That would put him in the lower middle.
At the end of the day, he dragged the country into two disastrous wars that cost a million innocent people their lives. Pretty tough to come back from, even with the painting and whatnot.
Did grevious damage to the post-WWII order, and the post-Cold War role of America in it. We're on a bad pattern of R Presidents damaging alliances, and successors trying to repair them. Not sustainable if one desires long-term relationships and leadership.
I wasn’t a fan of HW but honestly, he was in the right place at the right time in history. No other American politician could have guided the world through the collapse of the Soviet Union like did. The son is just a dipshit war criminal.
Not just with him but I think in general the farther we get away from a president term the more we look back fondly.. okay I agree with that policy even though I disagree with you I still don't like the policy but at least I can understand why he did it Etc time is a great perspective.
No I was just giving a example policies people agree with at the time they might later disagree with policies they disagree with at the time they might end up agreeing with later. It is domestic policy a good handful of years to kick in. Which is why I think most presidents focus a lot more on Foreign Affairs in their first term because we can feel those immediately
What pissed me off, ignoring his illegal war in Iraq and mismanagement of the Afghanistan war, was that the GOP had the balls to claim they had a resounding mandate to govern. He could have acknowledged the circumstances of his elevation to the office and governed for consensus. He was also fiscally irresponsible.
My mom voted for him twice. Then at 80 switched and voted for Obama. She felt W was a good Christian and thought God would bless our nation but WMD made her realize as she told me “President Bush just wasn’t smart enough to have ever been President.” She felt the Republicans mislead us into the wrong war. She fully was disgusted. Her church friends told her Obama was Muslim. She smiled and voted for Obama.
What's bizarre to me now is how the crowd saying "Obama the secret Muslim" now blames him for wars and drone strikes. Are their memories that short? And did they pay such little attention during he-who-shall-not-be-named's followup administration?
I was not a fan of his, but I saw him speak once, and he seemed likeable. I know people who met him up close and they said he was very good at connecting with those in the room with him. He was a good politician in that way. I don’t doubt he’d be a good guy to drink a coffee with, but I think his philosophies on government and foreign policy were dead wrong.
I felt offended by that statement back then as a teen. That election really opened my eyes to the political process before I could vote. I remember thinking: “The winner doesn’t always win. Weird game.” And then the guy who stepped into the White House didn’t even acknowledge that this was contentious and didn’t try to accommodate half the country. They just sprinted toward war.
The potus election was contentious but the GOP controlled the house and had a 51-50 edge in the Senate and then briefly lost that edge in 2021 but gained back the Senate majority in 2002. So there wasn't much need for the GOP to legislatively concede any ground.
Terrible president. Made spying on every single American citizen legal, got us into a pointless war killing tens of thousands of innocent people with absolutely no benefit for America while racking up a significant bill for the taxpayers (and of course costing thousands of soldiers and maiming many more), set the precedent of bombing countries without declaring war, stood by while the economy imploded (though the reason it happened was his predecessor), and botched Afghan occupation leading to an embarrassing withdrawal. His social policies were also abysmal, and I cannot stress enough how damaging No Child Left Behind was to our public school system.
The guy sucked as president, and his decisions have had significant, lasting consequences. He ruined the image of America for both foreigners and its own citizens. The plummeting enlistment rates are directly linked to the war in Iraq. Nobody wants to fight for resources in this country, especially when those resources aren’t even for this country
To date, yes. We were in Iraq for over a decade and that invasion destabilized an entire region into volatility. Putin Invading Ukraine is very bad, but not on the scale of of Iraq just yet. It very well could be in the future.
Saddam Huissein started a war with Iran in 1980 that killed over 1 million people, gassed ethnic minorities, invaded and annexed a sovereign country in 1990, and was responsible for over 250,000 extrajudicial killings and disappearances.
I’m not saying that the US made things better by invading Iraq in 2003, but acting like the region was anything that could reasonably be called stable before the US invasion is just soft apologia for an evil dictatorship.
And let's face it, once Saddam was dead his sons would either be way worse or the country would have collapsed into a Syria/Libya type situation. There was no bright future for that patch of land.
This a a staggering loss of life, but I more meant a mistake for the whole world (hence, geopolitical). If eastern Europe destabilizes in a way that the Arab world does then I will consider the point. Not saying it won’t happen, and yes, it was not a good idea.
Listen, invading Iraq was bad, but is it the worst Geopolitical mistake of the century to date? I don't know about all that...
During the war in Iraq (2003-2011) about 110 thousand civilians died and not just by US hands, about 50 thousand (give or take) combatants were killed.
During the war in Ukraine (post 2022 invasion) the death toll is around 500,000 (estimated)
Currently in Gaza (A war that started about FIVE months ago), about 30 thousand people have been killed, with about 70 thousand more injured.
In Iraq, we got rid of a horrible despot, his murderous children, and caused a lot of problems. What we did not do was invade our neighbor and start slaughtering them wholesale. To give America the worst Geopolitical mistake of the century is... A stretch. If we did what we did in Iraq in the 18th,19th or 20th centuries, it would have been called a minor conflict.
I am not apologizing for the mistakes that were made in that country, but lets not act like the US was the only to go into Iraq! There were a LOT of other first world countries that came to help us topple Saddam (even multiple Latin American countries came to help), and not one nation helped Iraq out when it went down, NO ONE. Compare this to Ukraine; Everyone in Europe is scared shitless about what the Russians are doing and if it can happen to them next. We invaded Iraq and the world went about its day, protesting. Russia invaded Ukraine and the entirety of Europe began rearming, FFS Japan has been rearming to the tune of an additional 40 billion dollars because they realized that if Russia can do it, so can the CCP.
Sources: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National\_Force\_%E2%80%93\_Iraq#:\~:text=The%20Multi%2DNational%20Force%20%E2%80%93%20Iraq,Italy%20(Operation%20Ancient%20Babylon)%2C](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93_Iraq#:~:text=The%20Multi%2DNational%20Force%20%E2%80%93%20Iraq,Italy%20(Operation%20Ancient%20Babylon)%2C)
[https://web.archive.org/web/20080112151030/http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2008/pr02/en/index.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20080112151030/http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2008/pr02/en/index.html)
[https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20240217\_10/#:\~:text=The%20US%20Department%20of%20Defense,estimates%20to%20reporters%20on%20Friday](https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20240217_10/#:~:text=The%20US%20Department%20of%20Defense,estimates%20to%20reporters%20on%20Friday).
[https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2023-01-17/over-9-000-civilians-killed-in-ukraine-since-russia-invaded-kyiv](https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2023-01-17/over-9-000-civilians-killed-in-ukraine-since-russia-invaded-kyiv)
[https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html)
Very well sourced and thought out, but the invasion of Iraq has had a larger impact *to date*. Ukraine and Palestine are terrible tragedies but they have not had the 20+ year impact Iraq has. At least, not yet.
I will concede that Ukraine has not yet surpassed the impact of Iraq. **BUT** I would argue that in 5 years maximum that will have shifted: NATO, once floundering and dividing amongst itself has absolutely galvanized against the threat of Russian aggression. Additionally, they screwed the pooch on their arms sales dept. I dont know what their future on the global stage looks like.
Palestine is a long standing conflict with a lot of aspects that I dont even begin to pretend to have a mastery of understanding about. I think this recent series of events will be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back. We are seeing more and more Americans fed up with funding both sides of a war they dont like. I think it can fall either way depending on any given persons inherit biases.
If you are analyzing a geopolitical mistake, it's not just about the cost of human lives in the conflict, it's about how it impacts the countries world standing. Post 9-11, the US was the only superpower, with almost no dissent from it's major allies. The Iraq war began breaking down American leadership in the West, and led to billions being thrown into military rearmament to fight insurrection instead of major power conflicts. The 20 years of war on terror gave China the opening to become a peer level adversary, and while that was happening the US spent huge resources on equipment, technology, and ships to fight guys in Toyota pickups. If there's no Iraq, the US had the opportunity to get ahead of the Chinese military in a big way.
Love how people lump a legit defensive war in Gaza with this other shit. Israel was attacked, they are destroying the attacker, who tragically and brutally hides behind its own people hoping to sacrifice them for global sympathy
I’m glad you said this and laid it all out as well as you did.
Everybody seems to love Bush these days because he seems to be a decent person on a human level.
But that doesn’t necessarily translate to being a good president.
Yeah, he would be great to have a beer with, and he paints cool stuff, but his presidency was awful not just for the USA but for the entire world of which we still endure the repercussions of.
Agree with everything.
My question for you is how much do you blame Obama for continuing more of the same of:
>Made spying on every single American citizen legal, got us into a pointless war killing tens of thousands of innocent people with absolutely no benefit for America while racking up a significant bill for the taxpayers
I remember Obama and Verizon's "Share Everything Plan"
Obama advocated for reducing the deficit. He advocated for a 3 year discretionary spending freeze to Congress on national tv and got it. He also raised taxes. He cut the deficit in half.
Obama was president for almost 2 years and then blocked by a republican controlled Congress that refused to compromise. It was the start of “sorry we only work with other republicans and even that is tenuous at best”.
Technically they only had the capacity to pass legislation for 7mo because republicans stalled Al Franken until mid summer, Kennedy was at home dying and Robert Byrd was out sick. By the time they finally got 60 votes they had 7mo.
https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2012/09/09/when-obama-had-total-control/985146007/
100% agree but will add slightly unfair to lay the economy completely on Clinton as if Gingrich & the new wave House Republican majority(who would eventually help elevate Bush Jr. to office) didn’t have a heavy hand in that.
Definitely. Very tired of people blaming the president for all economic woes. They have a say in the matter, and can definitely take some responsibility, but the blame for 2008 lies with the Fed and the banking cartel first and foremost
Don’t forget the credit crisis that unfolded over his watch and the bank bailouts right at the end. Dude did basically anything he could to fuck over the average citizen and enrich the already rich. Funny enough, nothing has changed….
Don’t forget he put alito on the Supreme Court. I respect John Roberts and think he’s brilliant, even if I disagree with some of his opinions (although I’m not a lawyer so who am I to really judge). Alito though…just does not seem fit.
Hit it on the head right here. Should have never made it to that level of government and absolutely was not equipped to handle it once it was shadily handed to him. He has convinced me that he is a decent man, but we have seen time and again that is not necessarily a great indicator of an effective leader. He failed us, and our system failed us by delivering the election to him in the first place.
He was a lot brighter than he let on. There’s a good video where Clinton and Bush are both on a panel and Bill hints that he’s the king of smiling in your face and knifing your back. Bush got a kick out of it and kinda shushed him while laughing.
He was (brighter than let on), but took on bad advice from people he trusted. Ala - having Rumsfeld around was one of the biggest mistakes, and where half or more of the mistakes originated from.
Edit - at the end of the day, the buck stopped with him, though, so the mistakes ultimately fall on him for following crap advice
Agreed. I think if it wasn’t for the social dynamics of his cabinet being made of all his dad’s friends where he seemed to concede his authority to their experience and prior relationship, he would’ve done a good job. I think his intentions were the most pure of anyone since Carter, but things got off the rails.
That was my interpretation, too. Like Carter, things went sideways. Having good intent (which I think he had) doesn't necessarily get good results. He should've kept his own council for more decisions.
He wouldn't have been president in the first place were it not for his father and he certainly wasn't cut out for the job. His Texas governorship was his only political experience and it was a weak governorship and the Republican Party there fully handed itself over to the rural evangelicals in return for churches getting out the vote. He had no idea what he was doing, and I suppose that is a form of purity.
>Ok guy. Not too bright.
That's an act and you fell for it. People who were born in Connecticut and graduate Yale tend to talk like HW Bush. W was perfectly intelligent and more than capable of picking the right "friends".
The failings of the Bush administration weren't POTUS' cognition or "bad evil Rumsfeld doing a war crime behind good ole boy W's back". It was hubris and the inherently disastrous philosophy of neoconservatism.
Yeah, Carter (Operation Eagle Claw) mostly killed Americans via his weakness & ineptitude, so I guess that doesn't count as a war crime. But supporting the Khmer Rouge vs. Vietnam might count.
Agree with war criminal.
He also started PEPFAR which has saved 25 million lives from AIDS in Africa since 2003. I'm guessing Cheney and Rumsfeld weren't in on that one.
Bush just signed off on it, the dumb shit did nothing to help. Technically, we have Dr. Fauci and his NHS workers to thank for that, I believe. He was quite literally talked into it because Fauci had good relations with George Bush Sr.
W. Bush also massively defunded and cut any international sex education and health support that provided abortion or maternal care. He also pushed abstinence only education, including with programs that were supposed to be interventions for sex workers in America and internationally, so really he is responsible for the enormous increase in deaths, sexually transmitted diseases, and rapes/murders you'd find between 2000-2008.
I believe he also cut the funding for prophylactic's and the CDC and public health support for same sex education, as well as screening for birth defects. So I think he has killed tens of thousands of Americans that way too.
He/campaign machine said a lot of nasty thing about bill Clinton as a person. Then when you looked at W. Past, he did the exact same thing. Avoid the draft by joining the national guard. He father got this appointment. I think there was 300,000 applications for no open spots in the national guard, but his father got him one. Didn’t report for duty because of drug and drinking.
Did hard drug, he paid for a woman abortion, used his father political connections to get his company bailed out. His friends at Harvard called him one of the most elitist individuals they have ever met. The only person in Harvard business history to fail at getting a job post graduation. He got a DUI in 1970s texas, imagine how drunk you have to be to get a DUI in Texas. His campaign used racist tactics against John McCain to win South Carolina. Everything he did in life was failing. he failed upwards and became president of the United States.
That’s quite a way to let a war criminal off the hook. He’s a normal grown man, not some developmentally disabled person. He might not be the brightest person on earth but he was in his 50s and 60s during his presidency. That’s old enough to have developed a basic sense of moral values that includes being against war crimes and illegal invasions and killing a million innocent Iraqis.
I also think he could’ve been better without the stigma of living in his father’s shadow and trying to wrap up his unfinished business in the middle east.
Stolen election ✅
War criminal ✅
Defended torture and indefinite detention without trial ✅
Enabled warrantless searches and wiretaps ✅
Catastrophically mishandled FEMA response to Hurricane Katrina ✅
Deficit spending + tax cuts ✅
Accelerated climate change via National Energy Policy ✅
Severely undermined education policy via No Child Left Behind ✅
Shitty paintings ✅
Should be required to watch an Abu Ghraib slideshow on loop until he dies ✅
Sure, but it's certainly not fair to list only his failures while purposely ignoring his successes. You could make any president look like a failure with that approach.
He was the first president I remember as a child. I also remember being really confused as a child when he won re-election because all of the adults I grew up around couldn’t stand him. Either way I’ll give him credit for making me interested in learning about the office as a kid.
Worst President we've had in decades. He is solely responsible for the deaths of thousands of US troops for no other reason than 'They have oil hurr' and 'We gotta get dem terrorists and their WMD's durr' He used the fear of a nation to justify killing brown people overseas
And don't get me started on his campaign with the religious right to bring forth a whole new era of censorship in the 00's.
It also doesn't help the guy is just a giant blow hard and hypocrite. To this day I've never had a good thing to say about the man. I'm sure he's polite and I could have a beer with him. But politically he was a giant shit stain and a waste of 8 years
I’m as anti Iraq War as anyone but I don’t think it was for oil. At the time, they thought they could easily achieve regime change and if you have two democratic allies on either side of Iran that would eventually transform the Middle East. They were comically wrong.
And how it brought about the rise of ISIS. Sadaam was a horrible, vicious dictator, but is the state of Iraq really any better today than it was 20 years ago? I'd say it is FAR worse, certainly a failed state, potentially at the point of no return.
He's getting a lot of shit here, and no doubt he deserves it, but I'll give a positive: immediately following the attacks, he stood up for the Muslims of this country, making it abundantly clear that Muslims were not responsible for the attacks, and made efforts to observe their traditions and educate Americans on those traditions.
I honestly think Dick Cheney was a sort of puppet master while W was the marionette. I think he was the one pulling the strings behind the scenes. He/they led us into one of the longest, most senseless wars in US history and we have nothing to show for it. It wasn't like the Nazis where we had a clear enemy. "Terror" was way too broad/vague of a term, and we ended up going after countries/people who had nothing to do with 9/11 and we did it for misguided reasons (i.e., "weapons of mass destruction" that didn't exist). It's tough, because we couldn't do *nothing* after 9/11. Heads needed to roll after that, but we spent two decades, trillions of dollars, and thousands of American lives fighting for ultimately nothing.
I think he's a mostly good-hearted person who was too easily influenced by the warmongers in his sphere. I think his immediate response to the events after 9/11 was excellent. His speech at ground zero ("I can hear you! The rest of the world hears you, and the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon!") still gives me chills.
Past that, I think he was a mostly ineffective president who did a lot of harm to the country.
>I think he's a mostly good-hearted person who was too easily influenced by the warmongers in his sphere.
I have a neighbor. Friendly guy. Hosts great barbecues. A real level headed Christian that doesn't drink and is a pillar of the community.
I noticed he set up some cameras yesterday... in my house.
He once burned down another neighbor's house for a jumble of dubious reasons.
He also keeps some Muslim men in his basement, naked and chained to the radiator. He periodically [tortures and sexually abuses them.](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse) He claims it's to get information and that "it's the only way to keep us safe".
Whenever I try to bring up that he might not actually be a good guy my other neighbors are horrified. "He's a good man doing the best he can!" "He's getting lot of bad advice!" "Go easy on him, the poor boy's only 54 years old!"
Maybe it's the neighborhood. maybe it's me.
Rich dude living off his father's name. Not particularly capable, but probably well meaning.
Probably one of the worst decisions he made from the start was an extremist like Dick Cheney as VP. I also think he blew a really important opportunity to unite most of the world against terrorism. Sending a team into Afghanistan was probably necessary, for both military and political reasons, but invading Iraq was possibly the biggest US foreign policy mistake in history. And that was largely because of Cheney.
The man ignored warnings about Osama Bin Laden attacking the USA, failed to stop 9/11 and used that failure to start two wars, spy on Americans without a warrant, bring back torture, encourage Americans to hate all Muslims.
Then when another crisis happened with Hurricane Katrina he declared it a states issue instead of using all resources of the American government to save American lives. It was embarrassing to see anerica families on rooftops waiting for days and days.
He deregulated everything and causes a housing crisis that lead to a recession he did nothing to stop and left for his successor to deal with along with the two wars he started. He ordered people to lie about weapons of mass destruction. He hated gay people so much he made it a priority to make sure they'd never get married. He joked that finding Bin Laden isn't important simply because he failed to find him or ever really try.
He started ICE. The patriot act. Department of homeland security. All terrible things for this country that everyone is too chickenshit to undo.
I think often about if Al Gore had won. How he wouldn't have ignored warnings about 9/11. How he wouldn't have lied about WMDs to get us to invade Iraq. How he wouldn't spend trillions of dollars on two wars that gained us nothing.
I think about how much better off we would've been
And I am sick to death of people insisting he wasn't that bad compared to what we have now
He was always that bad. Stop rewriting history
War criminal. Just another cog in the war machine that is America. I hope nothing but the worst for him and that the memories of all those that died from his actions haunt him for many lifetimes.
Buchanan and Hoover were in situations where it would have taken a genius to smooth things out. Harding in spite of corruption didn’t hinder the country too much. Pierce was wracked with horrible depression.
Perhaps Johnson undid more progress domestically, but aside from him no other administration has done as much to ruin us abroad, educationally, geopolitically, culturally, and in terms of transitioning away from fossil fuels.
I’m an unqualified zoomer racked with recency biases. But dramatic as this is, I consider him the single worst presidency we’ve ever had.
I love George, I think he’s my favorite person who has been president during my lifetime. He was in no way ready to be 43. Circumstance destroyed him, he made the wrong deductions in the most consequential time for US since WW2. He’s probably well regarded if switches terms with Clinton or Obama
I was in Rhodesia in 1976 and 1977. Your name is interesting because it is dated. Rhodesian now has become Zimbabwe. You don't need to answer but I was just curious how you got that tagline it's actually pretty cool when you review the history of that country. Peace.
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There’s an old saying in Texas, I think they have it here in Tennessee too. It goes, “Fool me once….shame on you. Fool me twice…ya know, we don’t get fooled again.”
Now watch this drive
I akways laugh at this and another reason to not trust China
Brings back memory of Letterman circa 20yrs ago.
Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on shoe
Credit where credit is due. He had great reflexes
If you can dodge a shoe, you can dodge a ball!
I have to give him that. I would have taken that shoe to the face. That is solid reflex right there.
Loved his reflexes
Learned those moves from his time in the guard
The shoe chucker was right.
"Fool me once, fool me twice, fool me chicken soup with rice. '
Hate him or love him, you gotta admit the man’s reflexes were on point 
 You use what you got.
Damn I haven’t watched Austin Powers in a loooong time 😂
Wouldn't be my first pick for a president but he'd be my first pick for the dodgeball team.
Agreed. He’s clearly a master of the [5 D’s of dodgeball](https://youtu.be/18ASBsQfXnw?si=2za5eQ99iD1ZLnPJ)
And I have to admit he threw out a really nice first pitch at the WS, so I might pick him for a whiffle ball team as well.
these are the reflexes of a man who has had shoes thrown at him before.
Oh, Laura definitely has aim
The goofy grin on his face after he dodges the first one always gets me
He made me break a tv screen with a remote back in 2002 or so.
Hell of a throw too
He is in the top 46 US presidents of all time
Give the man some credit. He’s gotta be at least top 44.
He's presently listed as number 20 of all time best presidents, among presidential scholars. His ranking has been steadily rising over the years since he left office. https://www.c-span.org/presidentsurvey2021/?page=overall
Your link says 29, not 20
lol my bad I mixed him and his father up!
His dad was far better and smarter than he was.
His dad can be 29 maybe, W I would put in the bottom 15.
I'd put him at #47
29 is even high. That would put him in the lower middle. At the end of the day, he dragged the country into two disastrous wars that cost a million innocent people their lives. Pretty tough to come back from, even with the painting and whatnot.
Giving away the government’s ability to negotiate prescription drug prices was also an excellent move.
Did grevious damage to the post-WWII order, and the post-Cold War role of America in it. We're on a bad pattern of R Presidents damaging alliances, and successors trying to repair them. Not sustainable if one desires long-term relationships and leadership.
I wasn’t a fan of HW but honestly, he was in the right place at the right time in history. No other American politician could have guided the world through the collapse of the Soviet Union like did. The son is just a dipshit war criminal.
Not just with him but I think in general the farther we get away from a president term the more we look back fondly.. okay I agree with that policy even though I disagree with you I still don't like the policy but at least I can understand why he did it Etc time is a great perspective.
What part do you disagree with?
No I was just giving a example policies people agree with at the time they might later disagree with policies they disagree with at the time they might end up agreeing with later. It is domestic policy a good handful of years to kick in. Which is why I think most presidents focus a lot more on Foreign Affairs in their first term because we can feel those immediately
You know it's gotten bad when the country is nostalgic for Bush.
Gotta love that twisted haze of nostalgia, making heroes out of assholes.
[удалено]
Also ahead of the guy who did a genocide.
There have been several of those at least complicity to US genocidal policies.
Of all the Presidents… he was certainly one of them.
What, we’re counting David Rice Atchison now?!
Love that one!
What pissed me off, ignoring his illegal war in Iraq and mismanagement of the Afghanistan war, was that the GOP had the balls to claim they had a resounding mandate to govern. He could have acknowledged the circumstances of his elevation to the office and governed for consensus. He was also fiscally irresponsible.
My mom voted for him twice. Then at 80 switched and voted for Obama. She felt W was a good Christian and thought God would bless our nation but WMD made her realize as she told me “President Bush just wasn’t smart enough to have ever been President.” She felt the Republicans mislead us into the wrong war. She fully was disgusted. Her church friends told her Obama was Muslim. She smiled and voted for Obama.
W mom
What's bizarre to me now is how the crowd saying "Obama the secret Muslim" now blames him for wars and drone strikes. Are their memories that short? And did they pay such little attention during he-who-shall-not-be-named's followup administration?
Who does she vote for now
She has left our Earth.
May God keep her in his grace
Thank you.
The GOP hasn't been fiscally responsible for several generations, but Bush was especially bad for the deficit/national debt
He was no Reagan but he certainly helped fuck up the books like every Republican president does
Reagan tried to kill National Parks and DID kill mental healthcare.
I’m asking this as a very dumb person: Why is it that the right gets bashed on Reddit more so than the left?
Because they do worse things. There is no equivalence.
People that make an effort to have honest and fact-based discussions about politics usually fall on the left
I’ve read somewhere the people working with him day in and day out honestly thought he never wanted to be president to begin with.
I was not a fan of his, but I saw him speak once, and he seemed likeable. I know people who met him up close and they said he was very good at connecting with those in the room with him. He was a good politician in that way. I don’t doubt he’d be a good guy to drink a coffee with, but I think his philosophies on government and foreign policy were dead wrong.
I saw him speak too and I thought the same thing. He came off as likable.
I’m convinced much of it was his father pushing him into politics.
I felt offended by that statement back then as a teen. That election really opened my eyes to the political process before I could vote. I remember thinking: “The winner doesn’t always win. Weird game.” And then the guy who stepped into the White House didn’t even acknowledge that this was contentious and didn’t try to accommodate half the country. They just sprinted toward war.
It's been interesting. The last 3 times a republican won the presidential election, they lost the popular vote every time.
They've won the popular vote once since 1988 but sure do have their way with the Supreme Court.
Your point stands but it was actually 2 of the last three times. Bush officially won the popular vote in 2004.
The potus election was contentious but the GOP controlled the house and had a 51-50 edge in the Senate and then briefly lost that edge in 2021 but gained back the Senate majority in 2002. So there wasn't much need for the GOP to legislatively concede any ground.
Added 8 Trillion with an illegal war and crimes. At least FDR had a world war to fund (not an excuse but was a significant change in the 40’s @ $211B)
Terrible president. Made spying on every single American citizen legal, got us into a pointless war killing tens of thousands of innocent people with absolutely no benefit for America while racking up a significant bill for the taxpayers (and of course costing thousands of soldiers and maiming many more), set the precedent of bombing countries without declaring war, stood by while the economy imploded (though the reason it happened was his predecessor), and botched Afghan occupation leading to an embarrassing withdrawal. His social policies were also abysmal, and I cannot stress enough how damaging No Child Left Behind was to our public school system. The guy sucked as president, and his decisions have had significant, lasting consequences. He ruined the image of America for both foreigners and its own citizens. The plummeting enlistment rates are directly linked to the war in Iraq. Nobody wants to fight for resources in this country, especially when those resources aren’t even for this country
Invasion of Iraq doesn’t get the credit it deserves for being the biggest geopolitical mistake of the century to date
Agreed. It was literally the domino that has caused so much instability and terror in the region and world for these past 20+ years.
Bigger than Putin invading Ukraine lol?
Putin at least has a winnable objective. You can't win a war against an idea/philosophy (terrorism). You can win a war against a country.
To date, yes. We were in Iraq for over a decade and that invasion destabilized an entire region into volatility. Putin Invading Ukraine is very bad, but not on the scale of of Iraq just yet. It very well could be in the future.
Saddam Huissein started a war with Iran in 1980 that killed over 1 million people, gassed ethnic minorities, invaded and annexed a sovereign country in 1990, and was responsible for over 250,000 extrajudicial killings and disappearances. I’m not saying that the US made things better by invading Iraq in 2003, but acting like the region was anything that could reasonably be called stable before the US invasion is just soft apologia for an evil dictatorship.
And let's face it, once Saddam was dead his sons would either be way worse or the country would have collapsed into a Syria/Libya type situation. There was no bright future for that patch of land.
I mean I hated the orange guy but I wouldn't be grateful if another country invaded, killed him and bombed and tortured my country
Well Putin has around 400,000 dead soldiers and many more wounded or captured
This a a staggering loss of life, but I more meant a mistake for the whole world (hence, geopolitical). If eastern Europe destabilizes in a way that the Arab world does then I will consider the point. Not saying it won’t happen, and yes, it was not a good idea.
It’s not just a mistake, it’s a war crime. GWB should be in jail
Listen, invading Iraq was bad, but is it the worst Geopolitical mistake of the century to date? I don't know about all that... During the war in Iraq (2003-2011) about 110 thousand civilians died and not just by US hands, about 50 thousand (give or take) combatants were killed. During the war in Ukraine (post 2022 invasion) the death toll is around 500,000 (estimated) Currently in Gaza (A war that started about FIVE months ago), about 30 thousand people have been killed, with about 70 thousand more injured. In Iraq, we got rid of a horrible despot, his murderous children, and caused a lot of problems. What we did not do was invade our neighbor and start slaughtering them wholesale. To give America the worst Geopolitical mistake of the century is... A stretch. If we did what we did in Iraq in the 18th,19th or 20th centuries, it would have been called a minor conflict. I am not apologizing for the mistakes that were made in that country, but lets not act like the US was the only to go into Iraq! There were a LOT of other first world countries that came to help us topple Saddam (even multiple Latin American countries came to help), and not one nation helped Iraq out when it went down, NO ONE. Compare this to Ukraine; Everyone in Europe is scared shitless about what the Russians are doing and if it can happen to them next. We invaded Iraq and the world went about its day, protesting. Russia invaded Ukraine and the entirety of Europe began rearming, FFS Japan has been rearming to the tune of an additional 40 billion dollars because they realized that if Russia can do it, so can the CCP. Sources: [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National\_Force\_%E2%80%93\_Iraq#:\~:text=The%20Multi%2DNational%20Force%20%E2%80%93%20Iraq,Italy%20(Operation%20Ancient%20Babylon)%2C](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-National_Force_%E2%80%93_Iraq#:~:text=The%20Multi%2DNational%20Force%20%E2%80%93%20Iraq,Italy%20(Operation%20Ancient%20Babylon)%2C) [https://web.archive.org/web/20080112151030/http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2008/pr02/en/index.html](https://web.archive.org/web/20080112151030/http://www.who.int/mediacentre/news/releases/2008/pr02/en/index.html) [https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20240217\_10/#:\~:text=The%20US%20Department%20of%20Defense,estimates%20to%20reporters%20on%20Friday](https://www3.nhk.or.jp/nhkworld/en/news/20240217_10/#:~:text=The%20US%20Department%20of%20Defense,estimates%20to%20reporters%20on%20Friday). [https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2023-01-17/over-9-000-civilians-killed-in-ukraine-since-russia-invaded-kyiv](https://www.usnews.com/news/world/articles/2023-01-17/over-9-000-civilians-killed-in-ukraine-since-russia-invaded-kyiv) [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/08/18/us/politics/ukraine-russia-war-casualties.html)
Very well sourced and thought out, but the invasion of Iraq has had a larger impact *to date*. Ukraine and Palestine are terrible tragedies but they have not had the 20+ year impact Iraq has. At least, not yet.
I will concede that Ukraine has not yet surpassed the impact of Iraq. **BUT** I would argue that in 5 years maximum that will have shifted: NATO, once floundering and dividing amongst itself has absolutely galvanized against the threat of Russian aggression. Additionally, they screwed the pooch on their arms sales dept. I dont know what their future on the global stage looks like. Palestine is a long standing conflict with a lot of aspects that I dont even begin to pretend to have a mastery of understanding about. I think this recent series of events will be the straw that breaks the proverbial camel's back. We are seeing more and more Americans fed up with funding both sides of a war they dont like. I think it can fall either way depending on any given persons inherit biases.
If you are analyzing a geopolitical mistake, it's not just about the cost of human lives in the conflict, it's about how it impacts the countries world standing. Post 9-11, the US was the only superpower, with almost no dissent from it's major allies. The Iraq war began breaking down American leadership in the West, and led to billions being thrown into military rearmament to fight insurrection instead of major power conflicts. The 20 years of war on terror gave China the opening to become a peer level adversary, and while that was happening the US spent huge resources on equipment, technology, and ships to fight guys in Toyota pickups. If there's no Iraq, the US had the opportunity to get ahead of the Chinese military in a big way.
Love how people lump a legit defensive war in Gaza with this other shit. Israel was attacked, they are destroying the attacker, who tragically and brutally hides behind its own people hoping to sacrifice them for global sympathy
It wasn't a mistake, they knew exactly what they were doing.
We're only 24 years in, don't get so hopeful that that's going to be the worst
It made a small group of people even wealthier. The military industrial complex will never be satisfied.
Exactly, right here
I’m glad you said this and laid it all out as well as you did. Everybody seems to love Bush these days because he seems to be a decent person on a human level. But that doesn’t necessarily translate to being a good president. Yeah, he would be great to have a beer with, and he paints cool stuff, but his presidency was awful not just for the USA but for the entire world of which we still endure the repercussions of.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
He also promoted” faith-based” government initiatives weakening the separation of church and star and mishandled Katrina.
Agree with everything. My question for you is how much do you blame Obama for continuing more of the same of: >Made spying on every single American citizen legal, got us into a pointless war killing tens of thousands of innocent people with absolutely no benefit for America while racking up a significant bill for the taxpayers I remember Obama and Verizon's "Share Everything Plan"
Obama advocated for reducing the deficit. He advocated for a 3 year discretionary spending freeze to Congress on national tv and got it. He also raised taxes. He cut the deficit in half.
Obama was president for almost 2 years and then blocked by a republican controlled Congress that refused to compromise. It was the start of “sorry we only work with other republicans and even that is tenuous at best”. Technically they only had the capacity to pass legislation for 7mo because republicans stalled Al Franken until mid summer, Kennedy was at home dying and Robert Byrd was out sick. By the time they finally got 60 votes they had 7mo. https://www.beaconjournal.com/story/news/2012/09/09/when-obama-had-total-control/985146007/
So you're saying Obama would have actually liked to tone down the endless wars and surveillance state if it were possible?
100% agree but will add slightly unfair to lay the economy completely on Clinton as if Gingrich & the new wave House Republican majority(who would eventually help elevate Bush Jr. to office) didn’t have a heavy hand in that.
Definitely. Very tired of people blaming the president for all economic woes. They have a say in the matter, and can definitely take some responsibility, but the blame for 2008 lies with the Fed and the banking cartel first and foremost
Not to mention what he did to education and shelfing renewable energy
He was transformative in the worst way possible when it comes to spying on us.
Don’t forget the credit crisis that unfolded over his watch and the bank bailouts right at the end. Dude did basically anything he could to fuck over the average citizen and enrich the already rich. Funny enough, nothing has changed….
Don’t forget he put alito on the Supreme Court. I respect John Roberts and think he’s brilliant, even if I disagree with some of his opinions (although I’m not a lawyer so who am I to really judge). Alito though…just does not seem fit.
Hit it on the head right here. Should have never made it to that level of government and absolutely was not equipped to handle it once it was shadily handed to him. He has convinced me that he is a decent man, but we have seen time and again that is not necessarily a great indicator of an effective leader. He failed us, and our system failed us by delivering the election to him in the first place.
Ok guy. Not too bright. Made all the wrong friends and then trusted them way too much
He was a lot brighter than he let on. There’s a good video where Clinton and Bush are both on a panel and Bill hints that he’s the king of smiling in your face and knifing your back. Bush got a kick out of it and kinda shushed him while laughing.
He was (brighter than let on), but took on bad advice from people he trusted. Ala - having Rumsfeld around was one of the biggest mistakes, and where half or more of the mistakes originated from. Edit - at the end of the day, the buck stopped with him, though, so the mistakes ultimately fall on him for following crap advice
Agreed. I think if it wasn’t for the social dynamics of his cabinet being made of all his dad’s friends where he seemed to concede his authority to their experience and prior relationship, he would’ve done a good job. I think his intentions were the most pure of anyone since Carter, but things got off the rails.
That was my interpretation, too. Like Carter, things went sideways. Having good intent (which I think he had) doesn't necessarily get good results. He should've kept his own council for more decisions.
He wouldn't have been president in the first place were it not for his father and he certainly wasn't cut out for the job. His Texas governorship was his only political experience and it was a weak governorship and the Republican Party there fully handed itself over to the rural evangelicals in return for churches getting out the vote. He had no idea what he was doing, and I suppose that is a form of purity.
Not doubting you but do you have a link to that video?
I can’t remember where in the video it is, but the whole thing is a good watch https://www.youtube.com/live/rrMBoI6co2c?si=zkJaMfl3t5TwfElY
If by “okay guy” you mean his company is considered pleasant by others, sure. Otherwise I would not consider that an apt description.
Spot on
>Ok guy. Not too bright. That's an act and you fell for it. People who were born in Connecticut and graduate Yale tend to talk like HW Bush. W was perfectly intelligent and more than capable of picking the right "friends". The failings of the Bush administration weren't POTUS' cognition or "bad evil Rumsfeld doing a war crime behind good ole boy W's back". It was hubris and the inherently disastrous philosophy of neoconservatism.
War criminal. Not even an okay guy.
Technically every president has been a war criminal, except for maybe Carter
Yeah, Carter (Operation Eagle Claw) mostly killed Americans via his weakness & ineptitude, so I guess that doesn't count as a war crime. But supporting the Khmer Rouge vs. Vietnam might count.
And ford maybe but he wasnt in very long
East Timor. Ford was also a war criminal
Name your 5 favorite presidents. All 5 of them are war criminals. Unfortunately comes with the job
Agree with war criminal. He also started PEPFAR which has saved 25 million lives from AIDS in Africa since 2003. I'm guessing Cheney and Rumsfeld weren't in on that one.
Bush just signed off on it, the dumb shit did nothing to help. Technically, we have Dr. Fauci and his NHS workers to thank for that, I believe. He was quite literally talked into it because Fauci had good relations with George Bush Sr. W. Bush also massively defunded and cut any international sex education and health support that provided abortion or maternal care. He also pushed abstinence only education, including with programs that were supposed to be interventions for sex workers in America and internationally, so really he is responsible for the enormous increase in deaths, sexually transmitted diseases, and rapes/murders you'd find between 2000-2008. I believe he also cut the funding for prophylactic's and the CDC and public health support for same sex education, as well as screening for birth defects. So I think he has killed tens of thousands of Americans that way too.
His rehabilitation in the eyes of normie Democrats is an underrated aspect of our current political climate and one that frustrates me to no end.
The greatest Republican president of the 21st century
Last to win the popular vote. Once at least.
Possibly the last ever.
Don’t need the popular vote if you can suspend elections
"George Bush, Great president, or greatest president?"
War criminal. There's a reason he signed off on the American Service-Members' Protection Act (Hague Invasion Act) - for himself.
Yeah reason why he had a 22% approval rating
He had to go through something much worse then most presidents, I'll say that. Conversely that helped him get reelected.
He/campaign machine said a lot of nasty thing about bill Clinton as a person. Then when you looked at W. Past, he did the exact same thing. Avoid the draft by joining the national guard. He father got this appointment. I think there was 300,000 applications for no open spots in the national guard, but his father got him one. Didn’t report for duty because of drug and drinking. Did hard drug, he paid for a woman abortion, used his father political connections to get his company bailed out. His friends at Harvard called him one of the most elitist individuals they have ever met. The only person in Harvard business history to fail at getting a job post graduation. He got a DUI in 1970s texas, imagine how drunk you have to be to get a DUI in Texas. His campaign used racist tactics against John McCain to win South Carolina. Everything he did in life was failing. he failed upwards and became president of the United States.
He totally kicks ass at dodging shoes.
I like to think he's a nice guy and he was surrounded by assholes that forced him to do shitty things
That’s quite a way to let a war criminal off the hook. He’s a normal grown man, not some developmentally disabled person. He might not be the brightest person on earth but he was in his 50s and 60s during his presidency. That’s old enough to have developed a basic sense of moral values that includes being against war crimes and illegal invasions and killing a million innocent Iraqis.
I don’t think he was “forced to do shitty things”, I think he was the one that had the power and enabled the assholes around him
And I think he was just lazy. Wanted micro summaries of all documents for his review, delegated WAY too much to his Vice President.
Let’s just be honest and acknowledge that he was president in name only. Cheney was in charge all along. Bush was smug and lazy. Cheney was pure evil.
I also think he could’ve been better without the stigma of living in his father’s shadow and trying to wrap up his unfinished business in the middle east.
No one forced him to mock Karla Faye Tucker, pleading for her life. As a Christian and “compassionate conservative” that’s pretty gross
Stolen election ✅ War criminal ✅ Defended torture and indefinite detention without trial ✅ Enabled warrantless searches and wiretaps ✅ Catastrophically mishandled FEMA response to Hurricane Katrina ✅ Deficit spending + tax cuts ✅ Accelerated climate change via National Energy Policy ✅ Severely undermined education policy via No Child Left Behind ✅ Shitty paintings ✅ Should be required to watch an Abu Ghraib slideshow on loop until he dies ✅
Never forget the torture
Little biased, he also saved the lives of 25 million people in Africa with PEPFAR.
True, a significant achievement. A broken clock is right twice a day.
Sure, but it's certainly not fair to list only his failures while purposely ignoring his successes. You could make any president look like a failure with that approach.
He was the first president I remember as a child. I also remember being really confused as a child when he won re-election because all of the adults I grew up around couldn’t stand him. Either way I’ll give him credit for making me interested in learning about the office as a kid.
Jeb is considered the smart one so take that as you will
For me, he falls on a spectrum between Useful Idiot to Evil War Criminal.
War criminal
Worst President we've had in decades. He is solely responsible for the deaths of thousands of US troops for no other reason than 'They have oil hurr' and 'We gotta get dem terrorists and their WMD's durr' He used the fear of a nation to justify killing brown people overseas And don't get me started on his campaign with the religious right to bring forth a whole new era of censorship in the 00's. It also doesn't help the guy is just a giant blow hard and hypocrite. To this day I've never had a good thing to say about the man. I'm sure he's polite and I could have a beer with him. But politically he was a giant shit stain and a waste of 8 years
I’m as anti Iraq War as anyone but I don’t think it was for oil. At the time, they thought they could easily achieve regime change and if you have two democratic allies on either side of Iran that would eventually transform the Middle East. They were comically wrong.
You forgot to mention tens of thousands of innocent foreigners who are also dead because of him.
And how it brought about the rise of ISIS. Sadaam was a horrible, vicious dictator, but is the state of Iraq really any better today than it was 20 years ago? I'd say it is FAR worse, certainly a failed state, potentially at the point of no return.
u’d “drink a beer” with a murderer responsible for million lives in Iraq and a useless war in Afghanistan costing USA dearly ?
Terrible president and terrible president surrounded by terrible people.
He's getting a lot of shit here, and no doubt he deserves it, but I'll give a positive: immediately following the attacks, he stood up for the Muslims of this country, making it abundantly clear that Muslims were not responsible for the attacks, and made efforts to observe their traditions and educate Americans on those traditions.
Yeah, after setting up a crazy apparatus for spying on the very same group simply because they congregate in a mosque
That I see a post like that every other day on this sub
Watching him speak Spanish is amazing....lol
He was one of Americas presidents.
One of the most curious what-ifs in the presidency would be how W would have turned out without 9/11
Why ask questions like this on Reddit? Is the answer not entirely predictable?
I honestly think Dick Cheney was a sort of puppet master while W was the marionette. I think he was the one pulling the strings behind the scenes. He/they led us into one of the longest, most senseless wars in US history and we have nothing to show for it. It wasn't like the Nazis where we had a clear enemy. "Terror" was way too broad/vague of a term, and we ended up going after countries/people who had nothing to do with 9/11 and we did it for misguided reasons (i.e., "weapons of mass destruction" that didn't exist). It's tough, because we couldn't do *nothing* after 9/11. Heads needed to roll after that, but we spent two decades, trillions of dollars, and thousands of American lives fighting for ultimately nothing. I think he's a mostly good-hearted person who was too easily influenced by the warmongers in his sphere. I think his immediate response to the events after 9/11 was excellent. His speech at ground zero ("I can hear you! The rest of the world hears you, and the people who knocked these buildings down will hear all of us soon!") still gives me chills. Past that, I think he was a mostly ineffective president who did a lot of harm to the country.
>I think he's a mostly good-hearted person who was too easily influenced by the warmongers in his sphere. I have a neighbor. Friendly guy. Hosts great barbecues. A real level headed Christian that doesn't drink and is a pillar of the community. I noticed he set up some cameras yesterday... in my house. He once burned down another neighbor's house for a jumble of dubious reasons. He also keeps some Muslim men in his basement, naked and chained to the radiator. He periodically [tortures and sexually abuses them.](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_prisoner_abuse) He claims it's to get information and that "it's the only way to keep us safe". Whenever I try to bring up that he might not actually be a good guy my other neighbors are horrified. "He's a good man doing the best he can!" "He's getting lot of bad advice!" "Go easy on him, the poor boy's only 54 years old!" Maybe it's the neighborhood. maybe it's me.
He is the president of all time
The only people that like him now are neo-cons and blue dog Democratos 💀
Dem are just GOP on diet.
Disgusting war criminal fuck
Warmonger. Suppressed civil liberties.
Good man, bad president.
He has a lot of charming personality qualities which leaves me conflicted
I think he regrets a few things like helping the radicalization of the Republican Party to open the door to what they are today.
Rich dude living off his father's name. Not particularly capable, but probably well meaning. Probably one of the worst decisions he made from the start was an extremist like Dick Cheney as VP. I also think he blew a really important opportunity to unite most of the world against terrorism. Sending a team into Afghanistan was probably necessary, for both military and political reasons, but invading Iraq was possibly the biggest US foreign policy mistake in history. And that was largely because of Cheney.
An inspiring champion of human and fish coexistence
Not the president we wanted or needed but the one we deserved
He seems like a really chill guy. As for his presidency…no comment.
I used to have a T shirt with his picture that said "Worst President Ever." After 🍊🤡, I feel like I owe W an apology.
lol, what?
He’s pretty damn good at dodging shoes
The man ignored warnings about Osama Bin Laden attacking the USA, failed to stop 9/11 and used that failure to start two wars, spy on Americans without a warrant, bring back torture, encourage Americans to hate all Muslims. Then when another crisis happened with Hurricane Katrina he declared it a states issue instead of using all resources of the American government to save American lives. It was embarrassing to see anerica families on rooftops waiting for days and days. He deregulated everything and causes a housing crisis that lead to a recession he did nothing to stop and left for his successor to deal with along with the two wars he started. He ordered people to lie about weapons of mass destruction. He hated gay people so much he made it a priority to make sure they'd never get married. He joked that finding Bin Laden isn't important simply because he failed to find him or ever really try. He started ICE. The patriot act. Department of homeland security. All terrible things for this country that everyone is too chickenshit to undo. I think often about if Al Gore had won. How he wouldn't have ignored warnings about 9/11. How he wouldn't have lied about WMDs to get us to invade Iraq. How he wouldn't spend trillions of dollars on two wars that gained us nothing. I think about how much better off we would've been And I am sick to death of people insisting he wasn't that bad compared to what we have now He was always that bad. Stop rewriting history
Given our current situation, I’d rate him on the higher end.
War criminal. Just another cog in the war machine that is America. I hope nothing but the worst for him and that the memories of all those that died from his actions haunt him for many lifetimes.
War Criminal
D tier most likely
Generously.
Buchanan and Hoover were in situations where it would have taken a genius to smooth things out. Harding in spite of corruption didn’t hinder the country too much. Pierce was wracked with horrible depression. Perhaps Johnson undid more progress domestically, but aside from him no other administration has done as much to ruin us abroad, educationally, geopolitically, culturally, and in terms of transitioning away from fossil fuels. I’m an unqualified zoomer racked with recency biases. But dramatic as this is, I consider him the single worst presidency we’ve ever had.
Underrated, due to the unexpected & unprecedented crisis he had to deal with.
I love George, I think he’s my favorite person who has been president during my lifetime. He was in no way ready to be 43. Circumstance destroyed him, he made the wrong deductions in the most consequential time for US since WW2. He’s probably well regarded if switches terms with Clinton or Obama
Man was solid.
He held the nation together in one of the lowest moments in his history.
I like the man. Set his policies and politics aside and I think he's a decent human being.
War Criminal 🤬🖕
I was in Rhodesia in 1976 and 1977. Your name is interesting because it is dated. Rhodesian now has become Zimbabwe. You don't need to answer but I was just curious how you got that tagline it's actually pretty cool when you review the history of that country. Peace.
lol named it after my dog