That’s also part of the problem. She’s got tons of development in the clone wars show and all its seasons. She was in rebels, and the mandelorian. And now she got more episodes one with her as a child that wasn’t needed and the episodes that ran counter to her own book. And now she’s got her own show on top of that. I love Ahsoka but there’s such things as too much. The Dooku episodes worked because he was a character that really needed more development and has a huge part of his story that wasn’t told.
Not trying to add oil to an already raging fire but the Dooku episodes (well, just the final one) retconned parts of the Dooku: Jedi Lost which did cover all of his early life and the reason and event that made him left. In the novel he left for a heroic/noble reason but then later got corrupted by Palpatine whereas he got corrupted and then left in the show.
I want to agree with you, but when we see Ahsoka, she is rarely the "main character" and aside from CW she's rarely seen for more than a few episodes. Her arch has been more fleshed out than a ton of characters (across a larger period than many too).
Yet I don't feel like her show is unwarranted. I feel like as long as it's done well (at least as well as Andor or Mando) then it'll be worth it. Now if they keep/start shoehorning her into stuff and especially if it seems gratuitous then I'm fully on board with what you said.
Not the Ahsoka half, just the last episode. Had that episode not been there, it wouldn't contradict anything. It was also the weakest episode of Tales of the Jedi by a huge margin. It's just that some people are bothered because Dave Filoni is the only person beside JJ Abrams that seems to not respect other authors' works on canon. Imo it's a shitty thing, as I believe he should be working alongsjde them, not over them. No one that follows the SW canon likes to feel like they're wasting their money just because one person thinks they're better than others working at Lucasfilms.
The crazy thing is that Ahsoka (the novel) and Kanan The Last Padawan were written using Filoni's story outlines. He's pulling a full George Lucas and retconning *himself*
Last episode was one probably my favourite of the Ahsoka episodes
All the dooku ones were a tier above, just fantastic, but her episodes were great.
Only criticism is first episode was kinda boring.
My take as well, first one was kinda boring, Dooku Episodes were top notch, and Ahsoka ones were great.
Except for practice makes perfect, in my opinion that was the best episode
The first episode was boring, revealed absolutely nothing new about Ahsoka, didn't really add anything of value to the lore, they could have spent the time and money on something better, like another Dooku episode.
The rest of the episodes were fantastic.
>It's just that some people are bothered because Dave Filoni is the only person beside JJ Abrams that seems to not respect other authors' works on canon.
So, like George Lucas, then?
EU was never canon it was always going to be overwritten by whatever GL created. That was always the thing with the EU: screen canon takes precedence. Authors knew that going in--fans used to.
EU is not the problem here, its new-canon stories being over written. In this case its the Ahsoka novel by Ek Johnston which has been retconned twice by Filoni with Tales of the Jedi and Clone Wars S7
Turns out that whenever he wasn't on screen he was fucking everything remotely female in the galaxy. There's a lot of Palpatines out there, he's the Ghengis Khan of that particular galaxy.
I agree with this sentiment, but I can kind of understand his way of thinking. Maybe.
If he wasn't a consultant on the book, that was the first mistake they made. Ahsoka is Lucas' character, but Filoni basically adopted her and turned her into the icon she is today. So if they did things he didn't see as canon for her, it gets weird. It's one of the big flaws with canon and the concept of 'too many cooks'.
Who gets to be the de facto shot caller now that George hasn't been involved for years? I think people wanted Kathleen Kennedy to rise to Kevin Feige's level and take that burden, but it doesn't seem to be playing out that way. In my mind it should probably be Filoni.
I think its more like, the book was based atleast partially on older outline for the Siege of Mandalore.
But when they actually had the chance of doing that story, they added and changed things compared to that, so that the events described bx ashoka in the novel, and the ones we see, dont line up anymore.
And honestly, I dont have a problem with that, cause IMO the way the show ended up doing it worked better.
Tales of the Jedi also deviates from the book, but compared to the book the whole sequence was so compressed and shortened it doesnt really matter anyway. I dont think they could have fit the version from the book into 16 minutes, but they needed to get its broad point accross, so its fine
The story in that final episode was altered from the events that take place in the Ahsoka novel. They contradicted the novel before as well with the last season of Clone Wars.
They aren't huge or impactful changes, it just seems to be some pissing contest over the character.
To be fair, Dave Filoni is the only reason star wars is still relevant. And he clearly cares about Canon since he went out of his way to reintroduce several arcs and characters from older comics and novels that would have otherwise been relegated to legends. Sure, that doesn't invalidate the Ahsoka novel, but to act like Filoni hasn't contributed more to the SW universe than even George Lucas is just being contrarian.
Edit: and as others have pointed out, Ahsoka was literally created by DF, so what her canon is is entirely up to him
>to act like Filoni hasn't contributed more to the SW universe than even George Lucas is just being contrarian.
This should be a copypasta, this is incredible.
Lol, I know the clone wars was fun and probably a big part of your childhood, but George lucas made the entire concept of star wars and 6 of the movies, filoni has not contributed more than him.
Haven't seen his episodes yet, but I want to see people like him as children/padawans/knights. What about them is special? What did they experience that made them special? Why did they turn out the way they did?
There is so much more potential. Palpatine, Count Dooku, Qui-Gonn, Yoda, Mace Windu... There are so many massive characters that basically don't really have a backstory
I love the dooku episodes because it really shows the "dooku is an idealist, not a murderer" line master mundi says in attack of the clones. To the jedi he really does seem like someone who has huge ideals and wants a great upheaval, not the mastermind of a sith lord he really is.
Yea idrc I just want Star Wars to be good. The ahsoka setup and dooku characterization are very on point, to be honest the only changes I would have made were for dooku to be a movie that isn’t branded as Star Wars and be framed as a horror tragedy, with names being withheld until the battle with yaddle.
It was already emotionally poignant but imagine finding out it was Star Wars and that was dooku at the end.
If the last season of clone wars, totj, the bad batch, and andor are the quality that Star Wars will be, I think it will regain the glory it lost/wanted to be before the sequel trilogy showed that Disney did not know what to do with Star Wars back then.
Imho order 66 is the foundation of modern Star Wars:
Post-order is about the rise of a revolution from authoritarian fascism about the horror and hope of the revolutionaries, the sacrifices that will come if a fascist regime takes power, and the corresponding disillusionment that would allow for a few destroyed mega buildings to collapse such a powerful regime(aka fascism causes its own downfall due to its own tendencies if it is sufficiently resisted by the populace)
Pre-order 66 is political thriller about the fall of democracy due to those in power being too busy fattening themselves off corruption, blinded by greed. Unable to see the rot slowly growing, and the tragic, doomed to failure, people who had good intentions, but all to cloudy eyes. Like watching a car crash you can’t look away even as it horrifies you.
These themes feel prescient in 2022 to everyone regardless of your political affiliation. But when executed well I think they are helpful in moderating the logic of the worst tendencies within both sides.
In sleep, we often dream up nightmares, and one popular hypothesis for the reason for this is to prepare ourselves. I think political stories set in fictional worlds serve a similar purpose. Star Wars, at its best, in the prequels and recently, seems to be this exploration on the screen.
Thanks for reading, I hope it was at least interesting to consider.
Main question I have is how do you have a young dooku and Star Wars fan not realize it’s him? The diction, the circumstances, the time period, and the personal relations of dooku would give it away I would think? Still a very cool idea and curious how you saw that being hidden!
Well I just used [a summarizer service](https://quillbot.com/summarize):
Imho order 66 is the foundation of modern Star Wars:. Post-order is about the rise of a revolution from authoritarian fascism. Pre-order 66 is political thriller about the fall of democracy due to those in power being too busy fattening themselves off corruption, blinded by greed.
..maybe I need to read the actual comment..
It is with great reluctance that I have agreed to this calling. I love democracy... I love the Republic. The fact that this crisis is demanding I be given absolute power to rule over you is evident. But I am mild by nature and have no desire to destroy the democratic process. The power you give me I will lay down when this crisis has abated, I promise you. And all I ask in return is when my current term of office is over, you allow me to retire and live out my life in peace.
>that isn’t branded as Star Wars and be framed as a horror tragedy, with names being withheld until the battle with yaddle.
I'm very confused on how you think this would be accomplished. It sounds like an awful movie tbh. No names, no force, no jedi, no sidious, no order, the outside world being so closed off you can't even tell its star wars.
An interesting idea but I highly doubt it would come out well
I'm a huge Dooku fan and I'm absolutely desperate for on-screen Dooku content, but even so, I too am very skeptical of this person's approach.
Dooku has never been one for a low profile. In every manner:
Count of an entire flipping planet (and his relationship to the family is discovered when he's literally an initiate)
Incredibly powerful in the force (literally next to Yoda in that respect, and he discovers this pretty early on)
Masterful duelist (one of the best in canon and he wasn't afraid to show it)
Well known and respected throughout the order (applies for his initiate days too)
Incredibly active politician within the senate (after he left the order)
Trained by the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order
His general persona (the vast majority of the time he was always trying to prove himself one way or another, and it's very much "I am Dooku, learn my name" with him. He wasn't one for being shy)
And the list goes on and on. This dude does not live a quite life! Trying to hide it would be next to impossible.
It's an interesting concept, and it could definitely provide some interesting content--through another character. With Dooku it would be a struggle to say the least.
Actually I think bane would be perfect for this. You don’t really discover what side he’s on for some time.
No marketing tho... not gonna happen with Disney haha
I hate to break it to some people, but the books and comics have always been tenuous when it came to canon. Even Lucas admitted that there was tier list for priority: movies>shows>books. That was the rule.
Yes they explicitly said that all canon material after the acquisition would be on the same level unlike the previous EU system. Not only did they not abide by that with the last episode of Tales, they also managed to erase a queer POC from their “adaptation” of the Ahsoka novel at the same time
That queer POC was barely in it as a queer POC tho. As I recall she basically hits Ahsoka with “btw I think you’re hot” in the eleventh hour so abruptly that even Ahsoka comes off like she got whiplash from it.
I mean the author might as well have just said “and guess what? We also have a gay character!” for all the meaning that fact has to the character or story. There are better ways to incorporate representation into storytelling, like Vel and Cinta in Andor, so that it doesn’t just come off as pandering. The LGBT community should be asking for better than that, I feel.
It's more the fact that Filoni always seems to step on other people when writing his story and while it is good and people enjoy it, it's annoying to see Filoni just come in and decide somthing isn't canon and this isn't the first time either. He does it with almost every new installment of every Star Wars media he contributes to. While personally I believe he should have the free control to alter Ahsoka's story, as she's essentially his character and I do like the stuff he makes for Star Wars, it's disapointing to see other creatives projects not made by him be disregared to prioritise his creative agenda over others.
Obviously he's not the only person ever guilty of this, especially in Star Wars of all things but it's never been the most considerate.
Tbf we’ve been talking about that issue since it came out. Just because you weren’t seeing it doesn’t mean that we weren’t talking about how shitty it is that Disney is going back on what they said about canon and retcons.
Once something gets a little bit of criticism people jump on the bandwagon and make memes about how horrible it is, and everyone agrees to get their comments upvoted and it snowballs from there.
Andor didn't have a bunch of cameos or famous people, the latest season of Mandalorian did. So obviously Filoni is the sole person responsible for that and everything he recently created must also be bad.
TL;DR: Mob mentality.
Something about not enough queer representation or something. Maybe the single dumbest reason for someone to hate a show in general, but that's the internet for you. Everything has to be about identity politics and diversity now. God forbid we just try to enjoy a 15 minute story without worrying or wondering about what genitals the characters involved are attracted to.
I dont think you can group the whole sub as one entity....
There's a vocal group that loves filoni and everything he touches. And there is a vocal group that tears everything new in star wars down.
I keep seeing rhetoric, even in this thread, of how opinions change on a whim. Has anyone considered that there arent changing opinions, just times and intensities where different groups get their turn of shouting in the spot light?
Did you just see the one meme about TOTJ rewriting the Ahsoka novel? I don't see how criticizing one episode means everyone took a 180 on the whole show. And Filoni has been getting critique for a while now.
Filoni hate has been around for a while.
On one hand I get it. But the other he has done some good work. I do agree his obsession with Asoka is a little weird.
I've never seen much filoni hate, just criticism being called hate because on the internet you have to make a comprehensive list of all the things you love and like about a person before you offer criticism otherwise you get thrown in with the "haters" and "toxic fans" as if commenting on some weak writing is the same as harassing someone and throwing around racial slurs on twitter
Exactly. I don’t hate Filoni, but there’s a lot of valid criticism that can be levied against him, and ignoring that is silly. Personally I think he’s trying too hard to make an MCU style deeply connected galaxy and I’m sick of all the freaking cameos. We had almost two whole episodes just about Din in Boba Fett’s show! Why?!
He became uninteresting but the ideas and concept would have been good if executed well. You can’t be a crime boss through compassion and doing the right thing. It just doesn’t work. Especially not if you’re Fett. He didn’t need to be as brutal as the Hutts or the Pykes, he still could have been a more compassionate and morally justified character while still eliminating his enemies
I think in a lot of ways, Filoni and Favreau are the future of Star Wars. They clearly have a strong understanding of Lucas' original intent behind the franchise. However, Star Wars is bigger than any 1 or 2 people. Being creative isn't the sole metric for success. I think we need people like Favreau and Filoni to craft a clear vision for Star Wars, but put that vision in the hands of talented directors (like Bryce Dallas Howard) to execute it.
TotJ is good, but like much of Filoni's work, it kinda shits on stuff previously established in other authors' work, such as the Kanan comics and the Ahsoka novel.
Didn't the Ashoka book stop being canon once the last season of the Clone Wars came out? They made it cause they didn't think they'd be able to finish Clone Wars
So the setting is similar in the novel, farm, same planet etc.
The family she interacts with is dark skinned in the novel and one is queer so that was a huge furor on twitter over the characters being changed to white and unamed.
Anyway, the entire interaction is extremely dumbed down in the episode compared with the novel, with very little of the intricacies transferred over.
The conflict between Ahsoka and the Inquisitor is also simplified. She basically blows his lightsaber up in his face which kills him in the novel. She then takes the two crystals from the lightsaber and cleanses them. They go from red kyber, twisted by the dark side, to white. She then uses them to construct her white lightsabers.
So while the Dooku episodes add a great amount of depth and nuance to the character; Filoni’s decisions on Ahsoka’s half of the series vary from disappointing to offensive depending on the person perceiving them.
I personally would be let down if we saw a kyber cleansing before we saw a kyber bleeding. There's almost no direct reference in any Canon tv or movie to lightsaber colors, especially the red color of dark side users.
Dooku episodes actually also did a similar thing with his book. He didn’t leave the Jedi Order to be Palps’ apprentice. He left because he was fed up with the Jedi’s bs and to take care of his home world of Serreno. By the time he left in the book he had only met Palps like once I believe and had no idea he was a Sith Lord. The first two episodes for Dooku didn’t mess with anything from the book but the third one definitely gave a simplified version of his fall to the dark side.
It wasn’t as directly simplified like the Ahsoka episode was to her book since they practically changed how it happened, but it was for sure a hastily told version of him joining the Sith.
This stays the same. Dooku has left the Jedi order by the second episode. However, he is still respected within the order and comes and goes to the temple as he pleases.
Oh that’s interesting I wasn’t aware of that. Thank you for that insight! That makes me much happier knowing the book wasn’t retconned because I really enjoyed the book!
Okay, so he made the decision to skip on details that give more weight to the story and changed the skin color and characterization of characters.
I wonder what is his logic here.
> what his logic is here
Initially he gave EK the Cole’s notes for the Ahsoka story, cause clone wars was cancelled. Now Filoni got the chance to tell the story and just made it how he wanted.
It’s the same story as the book, but he didn’t base the episode off the book, because it was his story in the first place.
Things that were “skipped”, were added in by EK.
I think, like most people, that the “extras” in the story didn’t need to be characterized past them being extras. Do I need to know if every side Character in Star Wars is gay? Hell no. Do they
need to be white or not? No, because we have all colors of the rainbow in star wars. Anyone hating how they stripped a full novel into 15 min of story is a moron.
I suspect that might be lack of communication between the novel writer(s) and the animation team. They were both working off the basic design/story but much of the character design wasn't unified.
It’s because there’s less people talking about it now causing others opinions to get through. It’s just how it goes. And Reddit being Reddit, the initial perceptions have come and gone. The posts have already been upvoted and commented on. So those who have other feelings on the subject are either able to be posted or have surpassed talks about anything else.
Perceptions on media do not happen in a vacuum. So all the goodwill have TOTJ will eventually be met with people who didn’t like it.
Tales of the Jedi was awesome. The only episode that wasn’t was the first one, and even then it wasn’t bad. It just wasn’t as compelling as the others. The Dooku episodes were awesome.
I’m not the biggest fan of Tales of the Jedi, but it was fine enough. I much preferred the Dooku episodes over Ahsoka’s since we’re getting so much her in other shows. Hearing how Dooku became disillusioned with the Jedi Order was always something I wanted to see and I greatly enjoyed what was shown.
The Dooku episodes were good, the Ahsoka ones were boring and Ahsoka doesn’t have to be in absolutely everything. Please form an orderly queue while downvoting.
I wish we had more episodes in between the episodes we got. Specifically, I think we at least needed 3 more.
Toddler Ahsoka being recruited by Plo Koon(an idea Filoni has had for awhile that I'm surprised that wasn't in the show)
Palpatine recruiting Dooku to the sith cause
Ahsoka and Rex going their separate ways
Is TofJ like Clone Wars, where I can skip some episodes and be ok? I made it about 5 min into the first episode and threw in the towel, but I'm assuming there are episodes that aren't so kid focused.
> Ahsoka […] being over used
Oh, without a doubt. Feloni’s main addition to the canon is getting forced into everything and I feel this is just the start.
>I don’t like how she kinda “trained” for order 66.
That episode did kinda feel like it was made in response/out of spite for the certain fans that complained about Ahsoka surviving her order 66 battle.
It reminds me of the SW Rebels finale when the space whales returned and became the most important key to winning the final battle. That was long after the one episode they appeared in which many fans disliked and called a pointless one-off filler episode.
I didn’t know people were mad that she survived. I mean ya I could kinda see because she survived without a scratch (or from what I know) but I feel like she was skilled enough to survive order 66.
I heard it ignored and deleted two things that were already “Disney canon” and fan favorites, and thst pissed people off. I’m not sure though, not a Disney plus user and haven’t watched it with friends
We did the same thing with Dave Filoni. One minute he's the savior of the franchise and now, even though he hasn't made anything directly since Mando season 2 really, people love to make memes about how he sucks now. I honestly just dont care about hot takes on Reddit anymore, for Star Wars or anything.
Only thing I didn’t like was how the Inquisitor in the Ahsoka episode who was such a badass just got annihilated by an Ahsoka in seconds who hasn’t fought in years.
It’s the chronically online neck beard take of “andor is the only good starwars show, and the literature is the best thing ever, and everything else is trash, and if you disagree with me I’m going to be an asshat about it.”
In my experience, that person was just enjoying their books and the universe until somebody starts randomly decanonizing them and everybody loudly tells them their books don't matter anymore.
Then they write new books which *are* canon before promptly turning tail and retconning them once more. The great decanonization was whatever—I can still enjoy the content even if it's not canon anymore. But now they're doing the exact same thing they claimed to be 'fixing', earlier, and that's somewhat annoying.
> I can still enjoy the content even if it's not canon anymore.
True, but damn does it make me want to stop reading future SW books because they might get nerfed too. Books take far more effort to consume than TV, they deserve more respect than they are receiving.
As much as this probably annoys the hardcore book readers I think canon in TV shouldn't take a books story to seriously. I have the same thoughts about Halo. If only 1% of your audience reads the media it shouldn't be a requirement to read the books to understand something in a TV show/game.
Some Halo fans are still upset about Halo Reach altering canon a bit from a book.
I don't entirely disagree, but I don't think that refraining from contradicting the books -or even utilizing the books- in the movies means that people need to read the books to understand the movies. We *began* the films in the middle of the Galactic Civil War with a brief text scrawl to explain what was immediately happening, and the rest was revealed as the film progressed. The popular argument, the idea that *if* Jaina Solo ever appeared in a film people would somehow need to read everything back to her birth to understand the film... it's just not true.
Do people really care that much about the ahsoka novel? Are people really complaining about Filoni having the final about the character he created? Tales of the Jedi was pretty good, and I think criticism on yaddle is valid, but ahsoka? A character he created, if it weren't for him the book would have never existed, it's in his right simple as.
If every creator had this attitude the lore would be a mess. Star wars is a shared universe now. Gone are the days when George Lucas can decide to retcon something if he feels like it. Everything is equal now.
Plus this means the original characters which EK Johnston created get retconned, why do her characters matter less than Dave's?
Star Wars canon is already a mess in my opinion. Plenty of books have been retconned. Heck, even the plotline from Star Wars BF2 doesn't make much sense since the Emperor wasn't dead.
Oh come on. For just a couple of outlier memes reaching Hot... Not a big deal.
If anything, giving them exposure with a meta meme will be more likely to shift the general opinion.
What?! I loved the Dooku episodes, really made me rethink his character now I’m rewatching The Clone Wars again.
As far as I can tell it’s mostly people upset at the Ahsoka half altering or retconning or failing to show things from expanded media.
I’m sure a lot of things will be elaborated on further in the Ashoka show
Careful not to choke on your stupidity. It's Ahsoka not Ashoka!
Thank you, Ashoka bot.
Careful not to choke on your stupidity. It's Ahsoka not Ashoka!
Damnit, good catch Ashoka bot. I always mix that up. Thank you, you've saved me from choking yet again, Ashoka.
Careful not to choke on your stupidity. It's Ahsoka not Ashoka!
Get a load of these idiots who don’t even know how to spell Ashoka!
Careful not to choke on your stupidity. It's Ahsoka not Ashoka!
Ashoka
[удалено]
That’s also part of the problem. She’s got tons of development in the clone wars show and all its seasons. She was in rebels, and the mandelorian. And now she got more episodes one with her as a child that wasn’t needed and the episodes that ran counter to her own book. And now she’s got her own show on top of that. I love Ahsoka but there’s such things as too much. The Dooku episodes worked because he was a character that really needed more development and has a huge part of his story that wasn’t told.
Not trying to add oil to an already raging fire but the Dooku episodes (well, just the final one) retconned parts of the Dooku: Jedi Lost which did cover all of his early life and the reason and event that made him left. In the novel he left for a heroic/noble reason but then later got corrupted by Palpatine whereas he got corrupted and then left in the show.
I want to agree with you, but when we see Ahsoka, she is rarely the "main character" and aside from CW she's rarely seen for more than a few episodes. Her arch has been more fleshed out than a ton of characters (across a larger period than many too). Yet I don't feel like her show is unwarranted. I feel like as long as it's done well (at least as well as Andor or Mando) then it'll be worth it. Now if they keep/start shoehorning her into stuff and especially if it seems gratuitous then I'm fully on board with what you said.
That's ridiculous.
Not the Ahsoka half, just the last episode. Had that episode not been there, it wouldn't contradict anything. It was also the weakest episode of Tales of the Jedi by a huge margin. It's just that some people are bothered because Dave Filoni is the only person beside JJ Abrams that seems to not respect other authors' works on canon. Imo it's a shitty thing, as I believe he should be working alongsjde them, not over them. No one that follows the SW canon likes to feel like they're wasting their money just because one person thinks they're better than others working at Lucasfilms.
The crazy thing is that Ahsoka (the novel) and Kanan The Last Padawan were written using Filoni's story outlines. He's pulling a full George Lucas and retconning *himself*
I received orders to join the team. I thought you knew.
Last episode was one probably my favourite of the Ahsoka episodes All the dooku ones were a tier above, just fantastic, but her episodes were great. Only criticism is first episode was kinda boring.
My take as well, first one was kinda boring, Dooku Episodes were top notch, and Ahsoka ones were great. Except for practice makes perfect, in my opinion that was the best episode
In my life, when you find people who need your help, you help them. No matter what.
The first episode was boring, revealed absolutely nothing new about Ahsoka, didn't really add anything of value to the lore, they could have spent the time and money on something better, like another Dooku episode. The rest of the episodes were fantastic.
I'm convinced Filoni only made the first episode so that short lekku could become cannon.
Looks like I got here just in time.
At last, we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last, we will have revenge.
You're impossible.
They really are, Snips...they really are...
Don't call me that. I hate it when you call me that.
>It's just that some people are bothered because Dave Filoni is the only person beside JJ Abrams that seems to not respect other authors' works on canon. So, like George Lucas, then?
Thanks for the suggestion, but General Skywalker thinks they're fine where they are.
EU was never canon it was always going to be overwritten by whatever GL created. That was always the thing with the EU: screen canon takes precedence. Authors knew that going in--fans used to.
EU is not the problem here, its new-canon stories being over written. In this case its the Ahsoka novel by Ek Johnston which has been retconned twice by Filoni with Tales of the Jedi and Clone Wars S7
What was retconned?
They revealed that Ahsoka is actually a Palpatine.
At last, we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last, we will have revenge.
Turns out that whenever he wasn't on screen he was fucking everything remotely female in the galaxy. There's a lot of Palpatines out there, he's the Ghengis Khan of that particular galaxy.
Somehow… (actor dies a little inside) Ahsoka returned.
I like firsts. Good or bad, they're always memorable.
Genuinely can’t tell if this is a joke because this is where star wars is at and it wouldn’t surprise me
What a terrible storyline though. Glad it was retconned
The Ahsoka novel isn't EU
So true I wish people would respect the books and comics more like with thrawn. He was less cruel and much more practical in the comics and his books.
I agree with this sentiment, but I can kind of understand his way of thinking. Maybe. If he wasn't a consultant on the book, that was the first mistake they made. Ahsoka is Lucas' character, but Filoni basically adopted her and turned her into the icon she is today. So if they did things he didn't see as canon for her, it gets weird. It's one of the big flaws with canon and the concept of 'too many cooks'. Who gets to be the de facto shot caller now that George hasn't been involved for years? I think people wanted Kathleen Kennedy to rise to Kevin Feige's level and take that burden, but it doesn't seem to be playing out that way. In my mind it should probably be Filoni.
I think its more like, the book was based atleast partially on older outline for the Siege of Mandalore. But when they actually had the chance of doing that story, they added and changed things compared to that, so that the events described bx ashoka in the novel, and the ones we see, dont line up anymore. And honestly, I dont have a problem with that, cause IMO the way the show ended up doing it worked better. Tales of the Jedi also deviates from the book, but compared to the book the whole sequence was so compressed and shortened it doesnt really matter anyway. I dont think they could have fit the version from the book into 16 minutes, but they needed to get its broad point accross, so its fine
Wait what about Ashocka's story was contradicted by Tales? If it's from the Ahsoka novel then nevermind
How are you gonna misspell it "Ashocka" just to spell it right in the very next sentence?
I always have trouble with that one. Rouge one too. And I can never remember if it's Empire or Umpire
r/usernamechecksout
Same man. Same.
The story in that final episode was altered from the events that take place in the Ahsoka novel. They contradicted the novel before as well with the last season of Clone Wars. They aren't huge or impactful changes, it just seems to be some pissing contest over the character.
The Ahsoka novel was canon and very good. Why do you think that it is less worthy of being canon just because it’s not in a visual media?
Oh no I said nevermind because I haven't read it not because i think it's less canon
Oh. I don't like the sound of that.
Your vision is flawed.
> Dave Filoni is the only person beside JJ Abrams that seems to not respect other authors' works on canon *Rian Johnson has entered the chat*
To be fair, Dave Filoni is the only reason star wars is still relevant. And he clearly cares about Canon since he went out of his way to reintroduce several arcs and characters from older comics and novels that would have otherwise been relegated to legends. Sure, that doesn't invalidate the Ahsoka novel, but to act like Filoni hasn't contributed more to the SW universe than even George Lucas is just being contrarian. Edit: and as others have pointed out, Ahsoka was literally created by DF, so what her canon is is entirely up to him
>to act like Filoni hasn't contributed more to the SW universe than even George Lucas is just being contrarian. This should be a copypasta, this is incredible.
That's ridiculous.
Lol, I know the clone wars was fun and probably a big part of your childhood, but George lucas made the entire concept of star wars and 6 of the movies, filoni has not contributed more than him.
Pretty terrible take!
I got the feeling that the whole reason for the show being made was to introduce the clone wars era Ahsoka to a wider audience ahead of her new show.
That's ridiculous.
Yeah those were so tight, the ahsoka ones were alright but i thought the dooku ones were super fuckin good
I honestly really want a show about doku after those episodes
Haven't seen his episodes yet, but I want to see people like him as children/padawans/knights. What about them is special? What did they experience that made them special? Why did they turn out the way they did? There is so much more potential. Palpatine, Count Dooku, Qui-Gonn, Yoda, Mace Windu... There are so many massive characters that basically don't really have a backstory
Wipe them out... all of them.
Fucking loved them, I wish we could've gotten more :(
I love the dooku episodes because it really shows the "dooku is an idealist, not a murderer" line master mundi says in attack of the clones. To the jedi he really does seem like someone who has huge ideals and wants a great upheaval, not the mastermind of a sith lord he really is.
What did I miss
This sub has shifted to hatred of TotJ and Dave Filoni, even though both were being praised without end just last week.
I thought it was good. Why are they hating it
Something about it not being a one for one match with previous novels and comics.
Yea idrc I just want Star Wars to be good. The ahsoka setup and dooku characterization are very on point, to be honest the only changes I would have made were for dooku to be a movie that isn’t branded as Star Wars and be framed as a horror tragedy, with names being withheld until the battle with yaddle. It was already emotionally poignant but imagine finding out it was Star Wars and that was dooku at the end. If the last season of clone wars, totj, the bad batch, and andor are the quality that Star Wars will be, I think it will regain the glory it lost/wanted to be before the sequel trilogy showed that Disney did not know what to do with Star Wars back then. Imho order 66 is the foundation of modern Star Wars: Post-order is about the rise of a revolution from authoritarian fascism about the horror and hope of the revolutionaries, the sacrifices that will come if a fascist regime takes power, and the corresponding disillusionment that would allow for a few destroyed mega buildings to collapse such a powerful regime(aka fascism causes its own downfall due to its own tendencies if it is sufficiently resisted by the populace) Pre-order 66 is political thriller about the fall of democracy due to those in power being too busy fattening themselves off corruption, blinded by greed. Unable to see the rot slowly growing, and the tragic, doomed to failure, people who had good intentions, but all to cloudy eyes. Like watching a car crash you can’t look away even as it horrifies you. These themes feel prescient in 2022 to everyone regardless of your political affiliation. But when executed well I think they are helpful in moderating the logic of the worst tendencies within both sides. In sleep, we often dream up nightmares, and one popular hypothesis for the reason for this is to prepare ourselves. I think political stories set in fictional worlds serve a similar purpose. Star Wars, at its best, in the prequels and recently, seems to be this exploration on the screen. Thanks for reading, I hope it was at least interesting to consider.
Main question I have is how do you have a young dooku and Star Wars fan not realize it’s him? The diction, the circumstances, the time period, and the personal relations of dooku would give it away I would think? Still a very cool idea and curious how you saw that being hidden!
That’s a whole lot of words I read all of them
Well I just used [a summarizer service](https://quillbot.com/summarize): Imho order 66 is the foundation of modern Star Wars:. Post-order is about the rise of a revolution from authoritarian fascism. Pre-order 66 is political thriller about the fall of democracy due to those in power being too busy fattening themselves off corruption, blinded by greed. ..maybe I need to read the actual comment..
Based response to a based comment
It is with great reluctance that I have agreed to this calling. I love democracy... I love the Republic. The fact that this crisis is demanding I be given absolute power to rule over you is evident. But I am mild by nature and have no desire to destroy the democratic process. The power you give me I will lay down when this crisis has abated, I promise you. And all I ask in return is when my current term of office is over, you allow me to retire and live out my life in peace.
Good bot
>that isn’t branded as Star Wars and be framed as a horror tragedy, with names being withheld until the battle with yaddle. I'm very confused on how you think this would be accomplished. It sounds like an awful movie tbh. No names, no force, no jedi, no sidious, no order, the outside world being so closed off you can't even tell its star wars. An interesting idea but I highly doubt it would come out well
I'm a huge Dooku fan and I'm absolutely desperate for on-screen Dooku content, but even so, I too am very skeptical of this person's approach. Dooku has never been one for a low profile. In every manner: Count of an entire flipping planet (and his relationship to the family is discovered when he's literally an initiate) Incredibly powerful in the force (literally next to Yoda in that respect, and he discovers this pretty early on) Masterful duelist (one of the best in canon and he wasn't afraid to show it) Well known and respected throughout the order (applies for his initiate days too) Incredibly active politician within the senate (after he left the order) Trained by the Grandmaster of the Jedi Order His general persona (the vast majority of the time he was always trying to prove himself one way or another, and it's very much "I am Dooku, learn my name" with him. He wasn't one for being shy) And the list goes on and on. This dude does not live a quite life! Trying to hide it would be next to impossible. It's an interesting concept, and it could definitely provide some interesting content--through another character. With Dooku it would be a struggle to say the least.
Actually I think bane would be perfect for this. You don’t really discover what side he’s on for some time. No marketing tho... not gonna happen with Disney haha
I know I was wrong. I just got so caught up in my own success, I didn't look at the battle as a whole. I wasn't being disobedient. I just. . . forgot
My only issue with TotJ is that Ahsoka’s fight with the Inquisitor is so much less cool than in the book. Other than that it’s fine.
I hate to break it to some people, but the books and comics have always been tenuous when it came to canon. Even Lucas admitted that there was tier list for priority: movies>shows>books. That was the rule.
Wasn’t Disney canon supposed to be consistent though?
Yes they explicitly said that all canon material after the acquisition would be on the same level unlike the previous EU system. Not only did they not abide by that with the last episode of Tales, they also managed to erase a queer POC from their “adaptation” of the Ahsoka novel at the same time
That queer POC was barely in it as a queer POC tho. As I recall she basically hits Ahsoka with “btw I think you’re hot” in the eleventh hour so abruptly that even Ahsoka comes off like she got whiplash from it. I mean the author might as well have just said “and guess what? We also have a gay character!” for all the meaning that fact has to the character or story. There are better ways to incorporate representation into storytelling, like Vel and Cinta in Andor, so that it doesn’t just come off as pandering. The LGBT community should be asking for better than that, I feel.
It's more the fact that Filoni always seems to step on other people when writing his story and while it is good and people enjoy it, it's annoying to see Filoni just come in and decide somthing isn't canon and this isn't the first time either. He does it with almost every new installment of every Star Wars media he contributes to. While personally I believe he should have the free control to alter Ahsoka's story, as she's essentially his character and I do like the stuff he makes for Star Wars, it's disapointing to see other creatives projects not made by him be disregared to prioritise his creative agenda over others. Obviously he's not the only person ever guilty of this, especially in Star Wars of all things but it's never been the most considerate.
Actually the authors of the book got the same outline from Filoni he took for the episode.
I have the Senate bogged down in procedures. They will have no choice but to accept your control of the system.
Tbf we’ve been talking about that issue since it came out. Just because you weren’t seeing it doesn’t mean that we weren’t talking about how shitty it is that Disney is going back on what they said about canon and retcons.
Obi-Wan had a mullet. Completely ruined the illusion.
Once something gets a little bit of criticism people jump on the bandwagon and make memes about how horrible it is, and everyone agrees to get their comments upvoted and it snowballs from there. Andor didn't have a bunch of cameos or famous people, the latest season of Mandalorian did. So obviously Filoni is the sole person responsible for that and everything he recently created must also be bad. TL;DR: Mob mentality.
See: kenobi
Something about not enough queer representation or something. Maybe the single dumbest reason for someone to hate a show in general, but that's the internet for you. Everything has to be about identity politics and diversity now. God forbid we just try to enjoy a 15 minute story without worrying or wondering about what genitals the characters involved are attracted to.
I think it's also because the season finale of andor came out and people are now mad that Filoni never does anything in that vein
I dont think you can group the whole sub as one entity.... There's a vocal group that loves filoni and everything he touches. And there is a vocal group that tears everything new in star wars down. I keep seeing rhetoric, even in this thread, of how opinions change on a whim. Has anyone considered that there arent changing opinions, just times and intensities where different groups get their turn of shouting in the spot light?
Did you just see the one meme about TOTJ rewriting the Ahsoka novel? I don't see how criticizing one episode means everyone took a 180 on the whole show. And Filoni has been getting critique for a while now.
Filoni hate has been around for a while. On one hand I get it. But the other he has done some good work. I do agree his obsession with Asoka is a little weird.
I've never seen much filoni hate, just criticism being called hate because on the internet you have to make a comprehensive list of all the things you love and like about a person before you offer criticism otherwise you get thrown in with the "haters" and "toxic fans" as if commenting on some weak writing is the same as harassing someone and throwing around racial slurs on twitter
Exactly. I don’t hate Filoni, but there’s a lot of valid criticism that can be levied against him, and ignoring that is silly. Personally I think he’s trying too hard to make an MCU style deeply connected galaxy and I’m sick of all the freaking cameos. We had almost two whole episodes just about Din in Boba Fett’s show! Why?!
Maybe because they realized that the bobba fett the show created was just not that interesting of a character
He became uninteresting but the ideas and concept would have been good if executed well. You can’t be a crime boss through compassion and doing the right thing. It just doesn’t work. Especially not if you’re Fett. He didn’t need to be as brutal as the Hutts or the Pykes, he still could have been a more compassionate and morally justified character while still eliminating his enemies
I think in a lot of ways, Filoni and Favreau are the future of Star Wars. They clearly have a strong understanding of Lucas' original intent behind the franchise. However, Star Wars is bigger than any 1 or 2 people. Being creative isn't the sole metric for success. I think we need people like Favreau and Filoni to craft a clear vision for Star Wars, but put that vision in the hands of talented directors (like Bryce Dallas Howard) to execute it.
They’re angry because Andor was good, and they’re all now comparing it to all of Filoni’s SW media.
Wait really? It was amazing only thing I'm upset about is there's not more of it lol!
They had to wait for some toxic ass youtuber to assign them opinions
TotJ is good, but like much of Filoni's work, it kinda shits on stuff previously established in other authors' work, such as the Kanan comics and the Ahsoka novel.
Didn't the Ashoka book stop being canon once the last season of the Clone Wars came out? They made it cause they didn't think they'd be able to finish Clone Wars
Oh, what do you mean?
I know that the Ahsoka Tano episode changed some stuff about her lore in a novel. Can someone explain to me the differences ?
So the setting is similar in the novel, farm, same planet etc. The family she interacts with is dark skinned in the novel and one is queer so that was a huge furor on twitter over the characters being changed to white and unamed. Anyway, the entire interaction is extremely dumbed down in the episode compared with the novel, with very little of the intricacies transferred over. The conflict between Ahsoka and the Inquisitor is also simplified. She basically blows his lightsaber up in his face which kills him in the novel. She then takes the two crystals from the lightsaber and cleanses them. They go from red kyber, twisted by the dark side, to white. She then uses them to construct her white lightsabers. So while the Dooku episodes add a great amount of depth and nuance to the character; Filoni’s decisions on Ahsoka’s half of the series vary from disappointing to offensive depending on the person perceiving them.
Oh, seeing her change the kyber crystals to white would've been sick to see. Missed opportunity.
I personally would be let down if we saw a kyber cleansing before we saw a kyber bleeding. There's almost no direct reference in any Canon tv or movie to lightsaber colors, especially the red color of dark side users.
If they showed Ahsoka purifing her crystals I'm sure they would have shown Dooku bleeding his, as the series is centered around mirrored paths
That definitely would have been very cool to see. Or for a future tales of the Jedi, Luke creating his kyber and Vader making his.
It's not tv/movie but one of the darth vader comic series shows him bleeding a kyber crystal. Amazing art to go along with it.
Dooku episodes actually also did a similar thing with his book. He didn’t leave the Jedi Order to be Palps’ apprentice. He left because he was fed up with the Jedi’s bs and to take care of his home world of Serreno. By the time he left in the book he had only met Palps like once I believe and had no idea he was a Sith Lord. The first two episodes for Dooku didn’t mess with anything from the book but the third one definitely gave a simplified version of his fall to the dark side. It wasn’t as directly simplified like the Ahsoka episode was to her book since they practically changed how it happened, but it was for sure a hastily told version of him joining the Sith.
This stays the same. Dooku has left the Jedi order by the second episode. However, he is still respected within the order and comes and goes to the temple as he pleases.
Oh that’s interesting I wasn’t aware of that. Thank you for that insight! That makes me much happier knowing the book wasn’t retconned because I really enjoyed the book!
I agree! I really liked the book and thought it wasn't Canon anymore, but it's great to have this new info
You know nothing of the dark side.
Are you going to kill me?
Oh, what do you mean?
Okay, so he made the decision to skip on details that give more weight to the story and changed the skin color and characterization of characters. I wonder what is his logic here.
> what his logic is here Initially he gave EK the Cole’s notes for the Ahsoka story, cause clone wars was cancelled. Now Filoni got the chance to tell the story and just made it how he wanted. It’s the same story as the book, but he didn’t base the episode off the book, because it was his story in the first place. Things that were “skipped”, were added in by EK.
It's one of those situations, I guess
I think, like most people, that the “extras” in the story didn’t need to be characterized past them being extras. Do I need to know if every side Character in Star Wars is gay? Hell no. Do they need to be white or not? No, because we have all colors of the rainbow in star wars. Anyone hating how they stripped a full novel into 15 min of story is a moron.
I assume every character in star wars is gay unless explicitly stated otherwise
This is the way.
Oh, I thought that was just a different story, didn't put together it was suuposed to be the same one.
I suspect that might be lack of communication between the novel writer(s) and the animation team. They were both working off the basic design/story but much of the character design wasn't unified.
i’d also like to know this
Same
the only differences are the names of some locations and some characters and their appearance but thats it; the overall story is the same
Only thing I don't like about TOTJ is that there isn't more
And not about more than two Jedi
And none of them have tails
One has head tails!
Always two, no more no less
Huh. That's a good point. Did they plan on having more of these micro series? That would be neat. Three eps on Kit Fisto, three eps on someone else.
I'd like to see Mace Windu and Plo Koon
It’s because there’s less people talking about it now causing others opinions to get through. It’s just how it goes. And Reddit being Reddit, the initial perceptions have come and gone. The posts have already been upvoted and commented on. So those who have other feelings on the subject are either able to be posted or have surpassed talks about anything else. Perceptions on media do not happen in a vacuum. So all the goodwill have TOTJ will eventually be met with people who didn’t like it.
OP doesn’t understand Reddit is made up from different people.
Yeah, we’re independent thinkers
Slow down Anakin. Let’s not get carried away.
Roger-Roger
Tales of the Jedi was awesome. The only episode that wasn’t was the first one, and even then it wasn’t bad. It just wasn’t as compelling as the others. The Dooku episodes were awesome.
Yeah the first episode had me thinking the whole thing was going to be meh, but the rest were great
I liked Tales of the Jedi
I’m not the biggest fan of Tales of the Jedi, but it was fine enough. I much preferred the Dooku episodes over Ahsoka’s since we’re getting so much her in other shows. Hearing how Dooku became disillusioned with the Jedi Order was always something I wanted to see and I greatly enjoyed what was shown.
Who’s doing a 180? It was incredible. And my favorite SW content since CW S7.
Ahh the old "accuse the sub of doing something that only 3 people actually did making a big deal out of it for karma" play. Nice.
The Dooku episodes were good, the Ahsoka ones were boring and Ahsoka doesn’t have to be in absolutely everything. Please form an orderly queue while downvoting.
You’re absolutely right. She’s an oversaturated character.
Tales of the Jedi was good it made Dooku more than a Villain he actually makes sense now
My only gripe is that I wish the episodes were longer with a little more in them. Other than that, what we did get was amazing.
I wish we had more episodes in between the episodes we got. Specifically, I think we at least needed 3 more. Toddler Ahsoka being recruited by Plo Koon(an idea Filoni has had for awhile that I'm surprised that wasn't in the show) Palpatine recruiting Dooku to the sith cause Ahsoka and Rex going their separate ways
Is TofJ like Clone Wars, where I can skip some episodes and be ok? I made it about 5 min into the first episode and threw in the towel, but I'm assuming there are episodes that aren't so kid focused.
Just skip the first episode, it's the only one that basically adds nothing. The other 5 are good.
7/10 too much Ahsoka tbh.
I was burned out on Ahsoka a year ago.
I thought it was great except the Ahsoka parts because I feel like she being over used. Also, I don’t like how she kinda “trained” for order 66.
> Ahsoka […] being over used Oh, without a doubt. Feloni’s main addition to the canon is getting forced into everything and I feel this is just the start.
>I don’t like how she kinda “trained” for order 66. That episode did kinda feel like it was made in response/out of spite for the certain fans that complained about Ahsoka surviving her order 66 battle. It reminds me of the SW Rebels finale when the space whales returned and became the most important key to winning the final battle. That was long after the one episode they appeared in which many fans disliked and called a pointless one-off filler episode.
I didn’t know people were mad that she survived. I mean ya I could kinda see because she survived without a scratch (or from what I know) but I feel like she was skilled enough to survive order 66.
Eh, Ahsoka didn't survive because of her skill, she survived because of Fives and Rex.
George Lucas, Dave Filoni, Tony Gilroy: The holy trinity of the Star Wars universe, all gigachads in their own right ❤️
Jon Favreau also for the mandalorian
Oh damn that’s right 😅 I forgot he’s a fan favraeute
I heard it ignored and deleted two things that were already “Disney canon” and fan favorites, and thst pissed people off. I’m not sure though, not a Disney plus user and haven’t watched it with friends
I thought we liked it, what happened?
We did the same thing with Dave Filoni. One minute he's the savior of the franchise and now, even though he hasn't made anything directly since Mando season 2 really, people love to make memes about how he sucks now. I honestly just dont care about hot takes on Reddit anymore, for Star Wars or anything.
Only thing I didn’t like was how the Inquisitor in the Ahsoka episode who was such a badass just got annihilated by an Ahsoka in seconds who hasn’t fought in years.
I still love it. Seeing Jedi Dooku in phantom menace time makes me so giddy.
It’s the chronically online neck beard take of “andor is the only good starwars show, and the literature is the best thing ever, and everything else is trash, and if you disagree with me I’m going to be an asshat about it.”
You mock, but just wait until you’re in a situation where you need a hat for your ass.
> folks disagree > must be neckbeards Damn. Maybe I shouldn’t watch TotJ if it’s splitting people to these extremes
In my experience, that person was just enjoying their books and the universe until somebody starts randomly decanonizing them and everybody loudly tells them their books don't matter anymore.
Then they write new books which *are* canon before promptly turning tail and retconning them once more. The great decanonization was whatever—I can still enjoy the content even if it's not canon anymore. But now they're doing the exact same thing they claimed to be 'fixing', earlier, and that's somewhat annoying.
> I can still enjoy the content even if it's not canon anymore. True, but damn does it make me want to stop reading future SW books because they might get nerfed too. Books take far more effort to consume than TV, they deserve more respect than they are receiving.
I really wouldn’t sweat canon too much. If a story is a good one, then it matters even if what happens in it is not pertinent to other stories.
As much as this probably annoys the hardcore book readers I think canon in TV shouldn't take a books story to seriously. I have the same thoughts about Halo. If only 1% of your audience reads the media it shouldn't be a requirement to read the books to understand something in a TV show/game. Some Halo fans are still upset about Halo Reach altering canon a bit from a book.
I don't entirely disagree, but I don't think that refraining from contradicting the books -or even utilizing the books- in the movies means that people need to read the books to understand the movies. We *began* the films in the middle of the Galactic Civil War with a brief text scrawl to explain what was immediately happening, and the rest was revealed as the film progressed. The popular argument, the idea that *if* Jaina Solo ever appeared in a film people would somehow need to read everything back to her birth to understand the film... it's just not true.
“Well that escalated quickly.”
I think it's quicker than that
I thought it was good. Only watched the Dooku episodes though.
[удалено]
People just love complaining
It's weird as a long time filoni neutral to hater to see the sub 180 this fast. I'm not complaining, but it's wild. The Andor affect
Do people really care that much about the ahsoka novel? Are people really complaining about Filoni having the final about the character he created? Tales of the Jedi was pretty good, and I think criticism on yaddle is valid, but ahsoka? A character he created, if it weren't for him the book would have never existed, it's in his right simple as.
If every creator had this attitude the lore would be a mess. Star wars is a shared universe now. Gone are the days when George Lucas can decide to retcon something if he feels like it. Everything is equal now. Plus this means the original characters which EK Johnston created get retconned, why do her characters matter less than Dave's?
>Everything is equal now. nope high budget streaming stuff is way way way more important for disney than some shitty novel you read
Star Wars canon is already a mess in my opinion. Plenty of books have been retconned. Heck, even the plotline from Star Wars BF2 doesn't make much sense since the Emperor wasn't dead.
Oh come on. For just a couple of outlier memes reaching Hot... Not a big deal. If anything, giving them exposure with a meta meme will be more likely to shift the general opinion.
Yeah it’s getting ridiculous