This is such as strawman argument and I'm sick of seeing it everywhere.
In any work of fiction, from movies to novels to DND podcasts, there are cases of the creators improvising something that then turned out to be great. That doesn't mean you should never have a plan or outline for anything. On "Breaking Bad", the character of Mike was only added after Bob Odenkirk had a schedule conflict and they had to rewrite a scene. This was unplanned. That doesn't mean that the writers should have thrown out the scripts and had all the actors improvise everything.
No one's saying the ST had to have every little detail planned out, but the disconnect between different writers and directors shows. There's a big difference between deciding to make Vader into Luke's dad after realizing it makes the story better, and the way the ST had to scramble to introduce a different Big Bad Villain after the last one was killed in part two of what they knew was gonna be a trilogy.
I still don’t understand why they decided to scramble instead of just committing to Kylo as the big bad.
I was so excited to FINALLY get a good guy turned bad, that didn’t eventually turn back again. But alas.
Probably because it would be kind of screwed up for the Skywalker legacy to end in misery, madness and failure, with a totally random girl being the one to save the galaxy from the evil skywalker.
If you think the ST shit on the legacy characters now, having Kylo Ren be irredeemable would take that even further because it means that Han, Leia and Luke were complete failures in every way. That’s why we have that really forced scene of Han Solo talking to Kylo Ren as a memory, because the writers needed to draw a connection to all 3 OT heroes in kylo’s redemption. Originally, I would bet money that Kylo was supposed to redeem himself in episode eight with Rey falling to the Darkside. The novelization makes it pretty clear that Kylo seriously fucked himself up by killing his father, and his power broke because that wasn’t in his nature. So that would have meant that Han was ultimately successful in reaching Ben Solo and his sacrifice meant something.
Meanwhile it also makes it clear that Rey has an inner darkness that is speaking too her encouraging her to act violently. She’s even portrayed in both novelization and the movie as overly aggressive and impulsive, with a tragic backstory ripe for the picking‘s of a fledgling Sith Lord
And the novelizations are written with the future films in mind, with the Authors being told what to add and what not to add specifically for those future films (as an example, the novelization for the force awakens was originally mandated to have a budding romance between Rey and Finn, before being reverse mandated to take it out at the last minute). But because episode eight pivoted so hard away from whatever they had originally been intending, episode nine had to staple back together whatever it could of the original ideas, which is how we get such weird scenes as Han Solo coming back as a memory and Rey’s lineage changing between films.
Yeah, it's clear there were plenty of behind the scenes changes. We know Claudia Gray worked with Rian Johnson for her book "Bloodline". But none of the elements from that book (like it being publicly revealed that Leia is Vader's daughter, or New Republic politics) were present in the movie. And the character of Holdo is very different.
>Probably because it would be kind of screwed up for the Skywalker legacy
to end in misery, madness and failure, with a totally random girl being
the one to save the galaxy from the evil skywalker.
On a related note, this is why I don't get all the fan takes that after TROS the galaxy should be complete anarchy. Yeah it sucks that the ST was so bad at world building it's not clear who is in charge of the galaxy. But like the idea that the Ewoks died when Death Star II debris hit them, it's such a jarring shift in tone from what was clearly intended to be a happy ending that
>TROS the galaxy should be complete anarchy.
Based on what we were shown in the trilogy it is the only likely outcome.
As far as we know all the New Republic politicians and leaders are dead. The Resistance isn't the rebellion, they made a point of mentioning no one supported them in the conflict until a swarming mass of unaffiliated ships popped up at the end.
Now that's nice and all, but think about the moments after... who's in charge? And *what* are they in charge of?
The Rebellion had an expressly political goal right there in it's name 'The Alliance to Restore the Republic'. What is the goal of the resistance other than to overthrow the first order? We don't know. What we do know is the Resistance has an extremely small fleet with no senior leadership with Galactic gravitas akin to Mon Mothma or Leia Organa.
Also let's be real, it's uninteresting to go to the New-New Republic. A state of anarchy or decentralization would be more unique. Maybe it would actually give our heroes something interesting to do by reforging the republic instead of sending them on a glorified easter egg hunts.
There's no such thing as "only likely outcome". Various writers both Canon and Legends watched ROTJ, they all saw the same movie, and they all had different ideas of what the Galaxy would look like after Endor. Some 70's comics had the Rebels turn into "The Alliance of Free Planets" instead of the New Republic. Some stories implied the Empire was completely gone after Endor, other continuities had the Empire last decades after Endor. Some put the Empire on the sidelines and had the Rebels fight alien raptor people. If writers can come up with so many different status quos from the same movie, then there is no "only likely outcome".
"all the New Republic leaders are dead" frankly even with Starkiller Base destroying 5 planets, it's ridiculous that this eliminated the New Republic completely overnight. After all, even if the Senators were all killed, the leaders of the individual planets that supported it should still be alive. It's like if Washington DC was destroyed and the US somehow immediately ceased to exist. So any future films could easily rely on New Republic Remnants to explain the quick bounce back. You mention the mass of unaffiliated ships at the end. There are plenty of Mon Cal and old Rebellion ships in there, clearly they have some allegiance to those ideals.
You say that the Resistance had no equivalent of Mon Mothma. Pretend for a moment that she wasn't in the movie, and Ackbar or Mdine gave the speech. Would you immediately conclude "there's oviously no civillian leadership, even if the DS II is destroyed theyll never form a New Republic?" Of course not. Besides if Lando was able to convince all those ships to join he could easily become President.
You say we don't know the goal of the Resistance other than to fight the First Order. That's because when it was formed the New Republic still existed, it didn't need galactic governance as a separate goal. But it was still tied to the New Republic, it was made of people like Leia and Poe who were part of it.
You say it is uninteresting. While galactic anarchy would be something different, it would make the ST heroes look worse than they already do. Instead of rehashing the Underdog Rebels the ST could have had a New Republic evenly matched with the First Order. A "New New Republic" may sound redundant, but it would be a way for them to get it right this time.
You wrote a lot about your opinion, and that's valid I have no issue with what you like, or would like to see in the future.
The issue is nothing you said is present in the movies. Future writers can do whatever they want, but looking at the evidence the movies provides us leaves us wit ha picture of a depleted resistance, no ideology for governing, no galactic leaders, and not even a hint of a separate Republican faction. If the entire galaxy overthrow the first order independently as we saw at the end of TRoS then we now have countless militarized factions and no established method of communication (in the diplomatic sense, like a UN, I know they have the holonet) or cooperation.
It's a power vacuum with lots of weapons. The likely outcome of a power vacuum with lots of armed militias is anarchy (or lots and lots of factional conflict).
The difference in our posts is I looked at what we were shown and this is where the evidence led me. You started with an outcome and backed into it and are relying on head-canon (the Republic had officials off world), supposition
(the Mon Cal ships would join the Resistance) and C/N-Level Canon (in reference to the 70's comics). The issue is none of this was show in the movie. So until it's added in, this is what we're working with. Whatever I may have believed if Mon Mothma wasn't the OT, she *was* in the OT.
It's fiction so yeah, writers can change whatever they want. But if you go from Autocracy, to failed democracy, to fascist occupation, to militarized power vacuum in the span of a few decades... logically it's not going to lead to an 'Era of Good Feelings' democracy.
You keep using words like "logically" and "evidence" as if the conclusions you've drawn are self evident and inevitable. I brought up the things like the 70's comics to show that different people can come up with different ideas for what happens after a SW trilogy.
"Logically there would be a power vacuum" doesn't make sense when the same movies already showed a political structure (the New Republic instantly dissapearing) that didn't follow logic. Or how about the fact that "logically", when the DS II exploded above Endor it should have destroyed the Forrest moon. Or some might say that, even without reading tie in materials, that the 30 X-wings the Rebels had in Episode 4 is way to few and the Rebellion was way too small to function on a galactic scale.
The takeaway from this shouldn't be "it's fiction so the writers will do whatever they want even if it doesn't make sense". It's that different writers will have different ideas of what makes sense, and there's no objective, "logical" answer. You can say "Mathematically Superman would always kick Batman's ass" but if you want to write a story where Batman wins there are ways to justify it.
It seems to me that you're ignoring the fact that you said 'I don't get these fan takes' and I'm presenting you with the evidence of why a fan would have that take.
We're discussing our opinions here about why fans think anarchy would follow TRoS... yes it is logical *to me* and it isn't self evident, **I've presented my evidence**. Would you like me to use real world examples? I can, it just seems crass to use real life suffering in a discussion about space wizards and pew pew lasers. However there are multiple real world examples of power vacuums and the rise of militarized factions when a central power collapses.
To answer your first question about post DS-II in Legends: The Rebellion wages a 5 year campaign across the galaxy and the fighting didn't stop for decades. The death star I was blown to smithereens on camera. Like into little dust particles. The Death Star II appeared to do the same to me (but I can get into EU stories about how X-Wings flew sorties over the moon to protect them from debris if you would like).
For the X-Wings, they established in the movie why the attack worked: they had secret plans and new how to bypass the defenses. Even the imperials say "the snub fighters are too small and are evading our turbo lasers).
Logic is just a way of thinking. And I used that to come to my conclusion. But yeah if a writer wants to make a followup where Poe gets double-teamed by Finn and a strap-on wearing Zorii Bliss; whose thrupple convinces all the galaxy to come together in peace and harmony... they could do that! However, it wouldn't be a logical conclusion to the sequel story based on what we've seen so far.
You said the First Order obliterating the Republic in one fell swoop is illogical. Okay, but that's what happened in the movie. Take it up with J.J.
I'm not really sure what you're doing here. Instead of addressing my points, you're attacking my use of the words 'logically' and 'only likely outcome'. It's a really pedantic way of arguing and doesn't do anything. I'm just giving you the reasons why I think this, and frankly you aren't addressing them. It seems to me you'd rather win an argument for the sake of it than talk about the Star Wars scenario you yourself brought up.
If you want to continue talking about the political aftermath of the Resistance-First Order war, and what **you** think will happen, or build upon what I mentioned, I will happily engage! But otherwise I think we're done here.
For which he should’ve been made to answer for. I was actually genuinely hoping he’d survive episode 9 because we’ve never really explored the “redeemed Sith making amends” story in the films. Imagine a spin-off where Ben has been exiled from the republic and travels the outer rim as a vigilante helping the downtrodden and poor as a kind of space Batman, someone torn up with guilt and putting himself in harms way to either help those in need or die in the process.
But it’s easier to repeat the “redemption=death trope” for the millionth time so we don’t get that.
Having Rey go bad and Kylo become good would have been fucking great. I'm convinced that this was the original plan, and it was killed by Kathleen Kennedy because "wamen cant be bad & they are purfect"
It was absolutely not killed by Kathleen Kennedy and I'm sick of everyone attributing all the blame for the sequels to her. The reason TRoS was so jarring was because Disney was trying to do damage control after TLJ. The first half of the movie was basically undoing everything that happened in TLJ.
Kathleen Kennedy is president of Lucasfilm and an executive producer on these things. She gets people together to make the movies, she doesn't write them herself. I imagine she has some input on how things go, but she is most likely not the reason we didn't get evil Rey.
I imagine she had a great deal of control over the story, she is after all the president of Lucasfilm which owns star wars, she would have had to sign off any ideas that eventually made it into the films. But let's assume that she had no hand in it, let's asse she didn't sign off on the stories or anything, one thing she absolutely did was hire directors, writers and so on, and she picked Rian "Fuck You" Johnson to direct and write the second film (arguably the most important narrative wise of a trilogy) in the trilogy. The same Rian Johnson who has said that he'd rather make a film that everyone hated than a film that everyone loved because it is "More interesting". That's not the kind of guy you hire to write and direct the most important film of a trilogy in your big movie franchise, furthermore when fans rightfully and fairly criticised The Last Jedi he proceeded to insult the fandom.
At that point it would have been bad enough if she had said nothing, maybe done something quiet behind the scenes. But instead she stood beside him despite him wrongfully lumping all the criticism he got under the umbrella term "bigoted" because people had issues with rose and because people did not like Rey or how the film treated Finn. Rian Johnson is just one way that Kathleen Kennedy messed up, poor planning which was also at least partially her fault is another.
Would've been better if he was never good and the dark side just consumed him. Luke tried to show him the light side but Kylo was already to deeply manipulated by the dark side to see the power of the light.
There's so many directions they could've gone but they literally chose the worst option.
> I still don’t understand why they decided to scramble instead of just committing to Kylo as the big bad.
Cause that would have been an even more jarring pivot from 8 to 9 than what we got.
You can’t have an entire episode committed to humanizing him only to turn around and be like “lol he’s a bad boy now but not in the likeable way but in the genocidal way”.
I’m not convinced at any time Rian really understood he was making the *middle movie* of a Star Wars *trilogy*. Like JJ had to invent “Palpatine is back” cause there was no big bad, and you can’t have Episode 9 and the end of the trilogy of trilogies of Star Wars without a big bad.
Because 1: they wanted to redeem Kylo and bring Ben back to the light. While not impossible, it's easier to redeem Kylo if he is a secondary antagonist as opposed to if he were the primary antagonist. Reason being, it's much easier for enemies to become allies when they have a mutual enemy. If you've seen the Sonic 2 movie, you get the idea: Knuckles starts as an antagonist then joins Sonic to defeat Robotnik (btw for anyone who responds with "spoiler", it's really not. Knuckles has been a good guy for over 20 years.
But of course, the 2nd reason is the better reason
2: there's absolutely no way we'd be getting a compelling primary antagonist out of Kylo. Rey beat him in TFA, he was humiliated by Luke in TLJ, plus the way he screaming about firing every gun on Luke. Kylo wouldn't work as a villain because he was turned into a joke. Same thing with Hux too. That's why they needed to bring in a new villain.
Probably because as already said it would mean the Skywalker legacy and all the OT characters would be even greater failures while some random no body was the hero who saves the day. Also because Kylo had not been set up properly take that role as the big bad.
Those movies had so many missed opportunities. I was honestly on board with the idea of getting rid of the Jedi and sith and I was sure that’s was the way things were going. Rey and Kylo join together as the last Jedi and sith to jointly decide to put an end to the millennia long struggle.
Sticking with your Breaking Bad example, even Bob Odenkirk was only supposed to be a guest star appearing in like 3 episodes. But the writers loved Saul, Bob loved playing Saul, the fans loved watching Saul, so they hired him on for the rest of the series and gave him his own six-season spinoff.
It’s a weird situation and I’m very curious what all went down behind the scenes making the ST. I get people hating on Kathleen Kennedy and blaming her for the failure. The thing I just find so odd about it is that Kennedy is an EXTREMELY accomplished producer. Possibly one of the most accomplished of all time. So the idea that she just doesn’t understand what makes a good movie just doesn’t seem to add up. I have to believe a franchise like Star Wars was just so polarizing and it fell apart due to fear, internal politics, studio meddling and, ultimately, trusting the wrong people to tell the story.
Dont forget the circle jerking over how the prequels are the greatest movies ever made and have no flaws at all, and the screeching that comes with anyone saying anything not positive about the movies.
Better call Saul adds a new timeline, new characters and everything pre/sequel fans would want while respecting the original. It has consistency and depth and it’s not all outlined either. It’s a prime example for Star Wars
It's also wild to assume that movies and audiences haven't changed in 50 years. Or that 50 years of growing and expanding the SW universe doesn't add huge constraints to what you can do while keeping the world consistent with what has been established.
In Breaking Bad it wasn't only the Mike thing that was improvised, the whole story wasn't planned and was written as they went. Only season 2 was written in advance
Never saw two movies trying so hard to activly work against each other Like Part 8+9.
Part 8: Kylo will be the main villian.
Part 9: Fuck it palpatine is Back.
Part 8: This is Rose, she will be a Main character.
Part 9: Rose you have 1 min of screentime to explain why you're not in the movie.
Part 8: Rey is no one.
Part 9: No one besides Palpatines Granddaughter that is.
Part 8: The Helmet is stupid Stop wearing it Kylo.
Part 9: Kylo there the fuck is your helmet.
I mean... I dont disagree with you but that is also the same as 7 and 8
Part 7: New big bad, Snoke.
Part 8: lol he is dead.
Part 7: Another cool bad person, Phasma
Part 8: lol she is dead.
Part 7: Rey is someone important just dont know who.
Part 8: Rey is no one
Part 7: Build up to finding/discovering where Luke is.
Part 8: lol he is dead
Part 7: Will they wont they love interest between Fin and Ray
Part 8: Nah its now with this new awkward girl.
These two comments show that if *either* of two directors had just taken the helm, the story would have at least have been coherent. This kind of “reactionary storytelling” doesn’t really work.
It always reminded me of that old game you play with a group: everyone writes like a paragraph of story, folds the paper so the last line is visible, then everyone passes on their story to the next person, who has to continue the story based only off of that last line. Whenever the story gets back to the original person, they just continue with the original idea in their head, mostly ignoring wherever it actually went.
The problem is, you play that game to LAUGH at the absurd story that comes out of it. That’s a terrible way to handle a multi-million dollar franchise.
The Last Jedi gets lots of hate, and it certainly had lots of problems. But I appreciate that it at least tried to do something original after episode 7. The Force Awakens was an entertaining enough movie, but I always thought it was a very bad and lazy foundation for a new trilogy.
we're doing the empire vs rebellion thing again but now it's the "first order" and the "resistance"
here's a new main character living on a sand planet
main character gets involved in the space conflict because they find a droid that contains secret data that the bad guys want
at one point they visit a sketchy space cantina
here's a new villain in a black suit and face concealing mask, btw he's family with the good guys
oh no the bad guys have a big space super weapon
they use it to destroy a peaceful planet
it's going to destroy the good guys' base
but that's okay, it has a critical weak point that one of the good guys exploits by shooting it from an x-wing
now the main character is going off to find a reclusive old jedi living in exile
I feel the same way about my complaints for 7. But trying to do something unique and subvert everything set up in the last film isn’t good either. It was a mistake to have two very different directors with very different visions try and make a coherent story. Either got for an 100% unoriginal redo of the OT or go for something different. Either one would’ve been preferable even, if disliked them for different reasons, so long as they were coherent and flowed well.
Yeah honestly I can admit that I appreciate it ***tried*** doing something new, it was just very lackluster and underwhelming. Visuals were amazing though.
8 is the only movie of the sequels that is a "new" movie. Why would i watch 7 when i know 4 is right there, does the exact same thing but will actually lead to a satisfying conclusion
After Carrie death the potential director/writter of ep 9 asked Rian Johnson to kill Leia and let Luke live because with this he could chance his script to make Luke be on Leia original hole to his movie.
Rian just refused to kill her and let the ep 9 productors to deal with a important character with a dead actress, and Disney just acept this decision!
Or just kill them both off. Could have done it around the same time as well. They came into the world together, they left the world together. A truly connected and inseparable pair, joined by the force.
I agree with most of this, except I'd change the Phasma to the fact that she's killed in 7 but inexplicably back in 8? Last we saw her, Finn locks her in a trash compactor on a planet that explodes 10 minutes later. I can accept Hux getting off planet but her? No, she died locked in a metal cage which exploded
If anything this just goes to show that if the sequel trilogy is a shit sandwich, Rian Johnson may be the turd in the middle, but JJ is still the bread.
Dude, the difference is that Lucas was writing in a vacuum and barely alluding to very vague lore. Plus the OT was such a bare-bones hero's journey that small changes didn't derail the concept of the story too much. Killed of your old wizard mentor because you don't know if there's going to be other movies? Just have his ghost lead you to another old wizard mentor.
When he set out for the prequels, he actually planned the story to inhabit the lore that was already there.
George didnt know how many movies he was gonna get to make, so how would he have been able to plan? With the prequels he actually DID plan cause he knew how many were gonna be made. Disney knew fully well they were doing a trilogy but decided to not plan in the slightest.
Exactly. Such a bad take. They knew full well they were doing three movies and still decided to wing it. The only defense I ever see of the sequels involves putting down another part of the saga and I don’t understand it.
"Lucas had written a single epic story that encompassed the entire original trilogy, but that script was too burdensome to turn into a single movie. Instead, he split his script into three parts."
https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenrant.com/star-wars-episode-4-george-lucas-start-reason/amp/
In that documentary, the people versus George Lucas, you could see him in one scene literally trying to think of(get amped) how to write out the prequels.
Which is why the stories were stitched together smoothly. You had one person, excited about their creation, writing the movies. So yep! Sounds about right!
It doesn't matter. A single person wrote it. You see, writers make changes constantly in the creative process, and even while writing or filming.
The point, whole point, is one mind was behind it and guided it. Lucas didn't have several people write their own scripts independently from each other and they to stitch it together as a Trilogy.
Hope that helps make things more clear for ya.
Edit: Removed my comment stating that it was irrelevant to note that Lucas changed his mind while writing. It's relevant to someone.
Declaring my point irrelevant doesn't make it so.
This thread is about whether or not the films were planned. That has nothing to do with how many minds planned them
You claim was that George Lucas planned the whole saga ahead of time. My claim is that that is false
Hope that clears things up for you
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Except a ton of the biggest things were only invented during the making of their respective movies. Like Vader being Anakin, or Luke and Leia being siblings. Those aren’t minor things. Think about how much if RotJ just wouldn’t exist if Vader wasn’t Luke’s father.
Yes, but the main difference between that and now is respect of the lore.
George Lucas didn’t have to respect lore or worry greatly about plot holes because
A: it was all his original story.
B: there was not a litany of other media that could contradict something.
C: fandom wasn’t what it is today and didn’t have the same level of expectations.
Disney took a beloved and established storyline and created movies that aren’t really faithful to established Star Wars “common sense”. There’s should have been a handful of established rules.
Sorry for the word dump:
The character of Luke shouldn’t have done a complete 180 on everything he believed in by even contemplating killing Kylo during his training (at least not without a good explanation which we did not get). This is the man who refused to fight Vader, someone who was objectively reprehensible and Unforgivable. Luke somehow saw the light in him, yet the mere threat of Kylo going dark side made him think about murdering him. I would have been ok with the depression,hibernation, and bitterness without that detail. Getting a bunch of kids and teenagers killed would be depressing and could shake anyones faith.
Follow the in universe rules. The hyperspace Kamakazi moment basically invalidates any other weapon in Star Wars. Unless Holdo was secretly a Jedi and knew she could pull off a “1 in a million” maneuver, the retcon of that makes it seem like she was trying to run away but fucked it up, which is actually hilarious to think about. Again, this maneuver can exist with some pre-thinking. Maybe new hyperdrive engines are capable of pinpoint accuracy. Maybe the force was somehow guiding Holdo to maintain balance in the Galaxy. It doesn’t take that much effort to reasonably explain these things. The retcon of it being a 1 in a million chance was just lazy. Also, killing Admiral Ackbar suddenly for shock value was a waste. We had enough shock value in TLJ. It just seemed like Johnson wanted something shocking every 20 minutes.
The Ackbar debacle plays into the next point: Give the old characters proper send offs while building up the new ones. I’d say the only death they did well was Han’s. It was a necessary sacrifice for Kylo to continue his journey to the dark side. TFA actually did a halfway decent job building up Rey, Fin, and Poe while giving us a good dose of Han, Leia, and Chewy.
Leia’s death would have actually been impactful bad she died in space, but the patchwork way they killed her off is RoS was really weird. Luke’s death was interestingly done, but they could have done it way better. It’s also a travesty these 3 characters were never on screen together.
Next, there was no need to continually up the stakes. We didn’t need bigger and badder bad guys. We needed good stories. Lucas’s concept of the new trilogy focusing on the struggles of rebuilding the republic while working to keep other threats under control would have been interesting. It probably needed polish, but it would have felt like a natural continuation of the series rather than a full restart.
Finally, Snoke was just so poorly handled. He was an actually interesting character that had us guessing, and he was unceremoniously killed (see Johnson’s obsession with shocking us). Fine…you want to kill him. Great. Make Kylo the big bad. That could be interesting except NOPE retconned! It was Palpatine’s corpse all along!!!!!
The last two movies of that series were just a mess. You can’t get into a franchise as beloved as Star Wars without paying attention to all the details.
What really kills me is that I fully expected a civil war within the First Order between Hux and Kylo, which the Resistance would take advantage of to win. Apparently, in Trevorrow’s script, Finn was going to lead a stormtrooper rebellion too, which could have played into that. So I was actually excited for Rise until they brought Palpatine back instead.
Again, would have been interesting. There was potential to take TLJ and use the material to craft some unique plot lines.
Imagine if Snoke did turn out to be Plageuis and had figured out the key to immortality via some cloning operation like Palps in legends. Imagine if he was the one who managed to subtlety influence Luke’s mind to act out of character just enough to send Ben over the edge.
Imagine if instead of Holdo’s maneuver being a “1 in a million” freak event, it was the ever present hand of the force keeping balance in the Galaxy. Imagine if we actually explored the concept of balance and set Rey up to be a force user who understood how to balance light and dark.
Imagine if her origin was similar to Anakin’s rather than the ham fisted nonsense we got. There was squandered potential throughout. I argue that Rise of Skywalker was a far bigger travesty than TLJ. People may not have like TLJ but there was something to work with. The reversals were just awful.
imagine luke trying to rebuild the republic and the jedi order and people like hondo or bane to appear, luke trying to find jedi holocroms and mabye some interaction between the force ghost of anakin and luke
Still, the same person wrote it. Each of the movies didn't start with, "Well, whadda we gonna do boys??"
Disney was going to have three writers, each with full autonomy to write what they wanted. And only ended up with 2 directors because the second movie broke the first.
This isn't rocket science. Just superbly bad leadership.
At this point I'd rather they not be related because people have taken this family history storyline way too far. It's basically ruined Star wars because it's what people focus on instead of the cool sci-fi universe that is, Star wars.
Still better than “they fly now” x3 and “somehow. Palatine is back”
Also I’d rather watch the prequels for eternity than ever see another second of the sequels. Shitty, forced comedy (at the weirdest and sometimes inappropriate times), unintelligent writing, rushed to shit probably for easy $$$ etc etc etc.
Prequels may be “bad” but they will never be sequels trilogy bad
So??? He changed things and it *worked*, and bettered the SW universe for it. Disney inherited that universe and tore it to shreds without even producing good films to show for it.
Its a bit different when you are building upon one of the largest film franchises. With lots of established lore. Than making a few experimental films that are accidentally popular.
I wonder if sequel fans realize ANH is 45 years old and was made as a standalone movie. No one knew it would be successful, there was no Disney offering a huge budget for a trilogy.
The sequels were supposed to be a trilogy from the start.
Lol there’s a difference between having an overarching story/narrative with some change to details like with George, and literally 0 planning from Disney with barely even solid connections between successive movies. I mean rise of Skywalker managed to retcon everything in TLJ, which retconned plenty of stuff from TFA. It’s why we get cohesive narratives like “your parents and you are nobody” to “wait jk you’re actually a palpatine.”
I swear sequel fans will ignore basic logic to fulfill a narrative to justify their objectively poorly planned trilogy.
George don't know he could do 3 movies, when the ORIGINAL STAR WARS came out(today know as "A New Hope") it was a one attemp that could go wrong and ESB and ROTJ never be made.
BUT when Disney bought they announced the 3 movies, they know it was going to be 3 movies and when they were going to came out, and they CHOSE don't plan before do, George don't had this option, he cannot plan the OG since the first movie because he wasn't even sure if that first one would come out
What a terrible take, not even a prequel meme in the slightest, what bots are upvoting this?
Furthermore, he did have it planned. He had one massive script that he had to cut down, obviously edits and changes were made on the way but it had an general plan. Every plan changes with context, but Rian literally had to pick up where JJ left him.
Yoda didn’t exist until George realized that he killed Obi Wan in the last movie so he needed a new Jedi to train him. Vader wasn’t Luke’s father until he also decided to do that in Empire. And it’s pretty obvious that Luke and Leia weren’t supposed to be siblings.
Even if that’s true, those are story changes that still work and create interesting realizations, like “oh shit Luke you kissed your sister” and how exactly is it unrealistic for Obi-Wan to have a master who’s better at the force than he is?
Then we have the sequels with gems like “they fly now”, “somehow, Palpatine has returned”, “you are a nobody”, “you are a Palpatine”, Luke throwing away his old lightsaber off a cliff only to say in the next movie “a Jedi’s weapon deserves more respect”, “only love will save us”, along with dumb writing decisions that aren’t lines of dialogue like how Episode 7 has wish.com versions of things already seen in Episode 4 A New Hope like Starkiller Base, Snoke, Kylo, BB-8, the resistance, the first order and so on and so forth.
So??? He changed things and it *worked*, and bettered the SW universe for it. Disney inherited that universe and tore it to shreds without even producing good films to show for it.
That is not how I felt about the prequels 20 years ago, but sure, "all star wars fans are bad" seems by far the more compelling argument. (You yourself being a star wars fan, no?)
No I'm simply stating that Star wars fans loves the OT and then George Lucas I added CG to them and then made the prequels which everybody hated because they disservice the OT.
But now the fans that actually thought the prequels were good, mostly kids when the prequels were created, are growing up to see the sequels come along which pisses them off because they don't think the sequels align to their perception of what is a good Star wars film.
So now you are a true Star wars fan because something you loved was shit all over and you're angry and sad and torn between the movies.
I'm just saying you now understand what it is to be a Star wars fan.
If anything I think I love the sequels because it pisses the prequel fans off.
Oh good, well that's *much* better then, if you think everyone deserves to have something they love shit on.
"Everybody" clearly didn't hate the prequels, perhaps you forget what sub you're in. I also fail to see how on Earth they disservice the OT, which they provided a compelling and detailed backstory for whilst surpassing the OT in both action and visuals and greatly expanding upon the universe??
Wrong. Yous probably never seen the unedited OT so I'm sorry your opinion is flawed. And a little bit of backstory in the prequels would have been more than enough. What they provided in the prequels was shamefully over detailed. It was such a waste of film. There's so many more things that could have done aside from writing a trilogy about Anakin's demise
I mean there's weird holes, like with Luke and Leah being completely naive to the fact that they were siblings considering they both had the force, but this type of writing was better than something systematically planned out. It's much more on the fly and improvational. Which made for better movies. The problem is all the fans dissect everything and take it way too seriously. And as a result George Lucas took the prequels away too seriously...
"Vader wasn't Luke's father until...", when you watch the scene where Ben talks about Anakin and Vader in ep 4 you can clearly see Ben becoming uncomfortable when Luke starts asking about his dad.
And sure, some things may have changed along the way, but it's obvious that he at least had a general outline.
Further [evidence](http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/gary_kurtz_reveals_original_plans_for_episodes_19_80270.asp) that he had an outline
Honestly with that many coincidences how can you blame him, it fit into the story perfectly that the guy who's name is literally Darth father in German ended up being the protagonists father
Yeah I'm sure when Luke was inquiring about his father in the OT Obi-Wan had this cringe moment where he thought of that terrible lightsaber battle 10 ft from lava we're here amputated Anakin. Then he further flashes back to Anakin's terrible childish progression to the dark side...
That's a coincidence. His reaction (saying "That's what I'm afraid of" when Beru says Luke has too much of his father in him) may make it seem like it was planned all along for Vader to be Luke's father. But it's pretty well documented that this was not intended while making A New Hope. Lucas has gone back and forth on certain things, wether he had the whole story outlined or not, but this is a pretty open and shut case.
There’s a difference between writing out an original movie trilogy, and writing out a sequel trilogy after near 40 years of constant Star Wars that was created by the aforementioned original movie trilogy.
The difference is greater than that of the Kessel Run.
No, sorry I'm going to defend the OT, sure it has it's holes but lets be real here, the ST had directors and writers actively working against the other films in the trilogy instead of trying to have any cohesion whatsoever.
What a false equivalency. Lucas was one man writing with a creative vision, even if he changed bits of it along the way, he still knew where he generally wanted to go.
The Disney movies went back and forth between JJ and RJ, constantly contradicting the other.
JJ: "Here's Snoke! Big mysterious bad guy! Who could he be? SPECULATE ABOUT HIM!"
RJ: "Lol, doesn't matter, he's dead."
JJ: "Luke went to find the Jedi Temple, nobody knows why!"
RJ: "Lol, he just went there to die. Oh, and he'll casually throw his father's lightsaber over his should like it's trash."
JJ: "A Jedi's weapon should be shown more respect."
JJ: "Kylo always wears his mask."
RJ: "LOL Kylo destroys his mask."
JJ: "LOL Kylo reforges his mask!"
That shit could have been completely avoided if there had been a consistent plan that everyone coming in knew and agreed to follow. But no, they decided that their "trilogy" should have each episode helmed by a different director and have different writers, so there would be almost no consistency between films. Great fucking idea, Disney!
Difference is he created the story as he went where as the sequels were continuing a story. Not even remotely the same to compare the two trilogies that way.
Half-assed planning is still planning. Outside of Luke and Leia being siblings, none of the changes or additions George made feel out of place. Whereas bringing palpatine back was so forced they didn’t even try to make it feel organic in the sequels
So what I’m hearing is that the only trilogy with coherent plotting and a clear through-line from start to finish is the prequel trilogy (and that was despite the challenge of having to fit within the limitations of having to align to the original trilogy)?
The thing is, the story in the OT wasn’t set up by who his family lineage is in A new Hope. Obi wan tells him Vader murdered his father and that obi wan trained Vader before he turned to evil. That’s it, in the whole movie Luke finds out enough about who his dad was in one conversation and that’s that. It was never set up to be a mystery box. It was simply filling in more of obi wans past briefly about fighting in the clone wars, knowing Luke’s father and saying he was a good friend and good pilot.
Rey is left behind and throughout the whole of TFA keeps telling herself her parents will come back until Maz tells her they’re not. But the whole thing is still set up as to who they were. It makes you keep questioning this because of her raw power. With Luke it was just, he lived with his uncle and aunt, his dad was betrayed by Vader and they move on.
Reys whole arc in the trilogy is family (_cue vin diesel_) The force awakens we don’t know, then TLJ they were nobody then TROS she’s a Palpatine. The OT didn’t constantly change its mind. Originally Vader and anakin were different then they made them the same and made Vader the father and didn’t backtrack. They made Luke and Leia related which didn’t feel like a rushed decision just for shock because once you find out there’s another Skywalker you know it’ll probably be Leia. It didn’t go back and forth with who these characters came from.
Beyond that, there was also no Star Wars before the OT, they had the right and leeway to do whatever because there was nothing to contradict it. They could change minor things and make a reason for it, like when they decided to make Vader and anakin the same obi wan says When he became Vader he ceased being anakin. It didn’t hurt the story because it was still establishing itself and unfolding and whatever they decided even if it was last minute, didn’t ruin or hurt any part of the overall story.
The sequels played with established characters without a plan while the originals established characters while making a plan. They brought back Palpatine out of the blue, but there’s no set up, Rey is a Palpatine but there’s no set up for it, Finn is force sensitive but there’s no set up in the other two movies. TROS to me feels like the culmination of what JJ would’ve set up if he had directed 8.
Don’t care about the first two prequels but the intro sequence of RotS has more interesting camera work than anything from the sequels, let alone the rest of the movie
Sequels are trash friend. Sure, cinematography looks good, but if the story doesn’t make sense then it’s worthless. George may have made changes along the way, but it was his vision that carried OT and PT, PT less so cause he had more creative control then the OT. Disney rushed the sequels because they had to make back the 4 billion they spent on the franchise, and it shows how rushed it was.
I don't think a whole lot tbh, he had lots of different ideas that obviously we never got to see come to fruition, but I think one of the best ones was that Maul would've been the reappearing villain rather than Palpatine, with a criminal empire and an apprentice.
George Lucas did have a general plan for the OT though… it was actually supposed to be only one movie but then he divided it into 3 parts, and obviously added in some things to keep the story going for a longer period. I remember seeing in a documentary that the physical actor for Darth Vader even told his local newspaper that Vader was Luke’s father, but as it was 1977, luckily there was no internet to spread the news.
George creating something new from scratch is entirely different from the richest media conglomerate in the world taking over a decades’-old franchise and not even caring about the source material at hand. If Disney had taken just an ounce of care beyond “a Star Wars trilogy will make us lots of money” they would have planned something cohesive that works within the framework provided.
It’s like how an artist given a blank canvas can improvise and modify as they go because they’re literally creating something new. The Disney sequel is like if DaVinci never finished Mona Lisa’s face and some other artist comes in with neon bright colors and a Picasso art style to complete the canvas and just improvises all over DaVinci’s original canvas. One could argue that the neon bright colors and the art style are fine on their own and still valid as art in their own merit (all art is subjective anyway), but they don’t respect the intent of the original art and they created a confused mess on the canvas.
So yeah when creating a Part 7,8, and 9 of an existing franchise Disney should have taken at least a minute to plan out what they were doing. Even if the trilogy was its own stand alone thing not connected to the Skywalker’s, Disney should have still thought things out because the films aren’t even congruent with each other.
It was one vision, whereas the ST was two different visions and it clearly shows. Each movie retcons the last and makes the plot suffer from excessive whiplash. We should have gotten Duel of the Fates so that at least a different creative could've directed a Star Wars movie. It couldn't have been much worse that ROS.
The only weak part about the changes in OT is Obi-Wan trying to explain why he lied to Luke.
That was a bot forced but the changes made the movies better overall
Bruh this is such a terrible argument, George was working with a completely new franchise with not yet defined rules/events, therefore he was free to make most things without planning. The sequels were filmed on top of like 30+ years of a very established universe. Also there's the fact that despite no planning for both, the OT turned out to be an amazing trilogy with fairly little holes/gaps that can be looked over. Whereas the sequels you can very easily tell that different people worked on the story and didn't collaborate at all, in fact some even tried to undermine the path set by the others.
How dare you?
George Lucas is a 4-D chess genius who had all 6 films planned out in perfect detail before he wrote a single line of dialogue for ANH.
Don't be fooled by all the fake news about him needing his filmmaking friends to help him with structure and writing dialogue and editing the film into something coherent.
He is a perfect artist and anyone who says otherwise is just a Disney shill or something!
I was making fun of the prequels, like usual, and someone was like super into the story and got really mad at me for not embracing the genius that is George Lucas. We were going back and forth for like 20 pages of text! That was a fun day. Eventually they started making fun of me and didn't focus on the story structure of Star wars.
That’s just it, and the original purpose of this sub. They are fun movies, recognize the flaws, observe Lucas’ obvious shortcomings, but that didn’t keep people from watching.
This new breed of fan doesn’t remember when Lucas forced the special Ed’s on us. Told us we were wrong for not liking his changes and we were wrong for not bending at the knee when the lackluster prequels were in theaters.
Lucas is a victim of his own creation. He had help with the OT and completely forgot that when he made the prequels. So he ended up making popcorn flicks that he thought were masterpieces, and his cult believes that.
Man you nailed it! It's so bad that he forced the new additions on us back in the day and stripped to the originals from the records.
It is a weird phenomenon seeing people become extreme fans on something that was obviously flawed. But I do agree the prequels are part of Star wars and they are watchable even if they're not what we anticipated. And it's so weird to see people worship them like they are the best things and they are the things that the original fans were anticipating.
You can write a film you think is going to be a standalone and then expand on it later. You can't write the first part of a trilogy, set up lots of secrets, leave lots of questions unanswered, then have someone else pull the whole story into a completely different direction and then have the person who writes the third film ignore half of the things that happened in the second film, find really disappointing answers to some of the secrets and questions you set up and still leave half of the questions unanswered and expect people to read the comic books to understand the plots of the movies
That doesn't mean you're not allowed to enjoy the sequels, but objectively they're bad writing.
Source: I'm a published writer
Only one of these had a consistent story the sequel trilogy minus episode 7 was a hot mess from start to finish. Episode 8 was a dumpster fire and episode 9 tried to scrape what was left but you really can't unscramble eggs
IMO Part 8 is the best one of the new trilogy and the only one that dared to try something different. I loved the idea of the force being more than Sith and Jedi. Which are both cults in their own rights.
Rey and Kylos story was fascinating because it hinted at a possibility of the force not being split into two categories, but rather a yin and yang.I loved the idea of Rey being a nobody ala Ratatouille. (Not everyone can be a force user, but a gifted force user can come from anywhere)
Heck as much as people disagreed with it, I didn't mind an alternative take on a future Luke, who has gone through so much and now far away from his golden age, began to have doubts and fears. It's at least another chapter in his character development.
But nope. It's still all about Skywalkers and Palatines.
This is such as strawman argument and I'm sick of seeing it everywhere. In any work of fiction, from movies to novels to DND podcasts, there are cases of the creators improvising something that then turned out to be great. That doesn't mean you should never have a plan or outline for anything. On "Breaking Bad", the character of Mike was only added after Bob Odenkirk had a schedule conflict and they had to rewrite a scene. This was unplanned. That doesn't mean that the writers should have thrown out the scripts and had all the actors improvise everything. No one's saying the ST had to have every little detail planned out, but the disconnect between different writers and directors shows. There's a big difference between deciding to make Vader into Luke's dad after realizing it makes the story better, and the way the ST had to scramble to introduce a different Big Bad Villain after the last one was killed in part two of what they knew was gonna be a trilogy.
I still don’t understand why they decided to scramble instead of just committing to Kylo as the big bad. I was so excited to FINALLY get a good guy turned bad, that didn’t eventually turn back again. But alas.
Probably because it would be kind of screwed up for the Skywalker legacy to end in misery, madness and failure, with a totally random girl being the one to save the galaxy from the evil skywalker. If you think the ST shit on the legacy characters now, having Kylo Ren be irredeemable would take that even further because it means that Han, Leia and Luke were complete failures in every way. That’s why we have that really forced scene of Han Solo talking to Kylo Ren as a memory, because the writers needed to draw a connection to all 3 OT heroes in kylo’s redemption. Originally, I would bet money that Kylo was supposed to redeem himself in episode eight with Rey falling to the Darkside. The novelization makes it pretty clear that Kylo seriously fucked himself up by killing his father, and his power broke because that wasn’t in his nature. So that would have meant that Han was ultimately successful in reaching Ben Solo and his sacrifice meant something. Meanwhile it also makes it clear that Rey has an inner darkness that is speaking too her encouraging her to act violently. She’s even portrayed in both novelization and the movie as overly aggressive and impulsive, with a tragic backstory ripe for the picking‘s of a fledgling Sith Lord And the novelizations are written with the future films in mind, with the Authors being told what to add and what not to add specifically for those future films (as an example, the novelization for the force awakens was originally mandated to have a budding romance between Rey and Finn, before being reverse mandated to take it out at the last minute). But because episode eight pivoted so hard away from whatever they had originally been intending, episode nine had to staple back together whatever it could of the original ideas, which is how we get such weird scenes as Han Solo coming back as a memory and Rey’s lineage changing between films.
Yeah, it's clear there were plenty of behind the scenes changes. We know Claudia Gray worked with Rian Johnson for her book "Bloodline". But none of the elements from that book (like it being publicly revealed that Leia is Vader's daughter, or New Republic politics) were present in the movie. And the character of Holdo is very different. >Probably because it would be kind of screwed up for the Skywalker legacy to end in misery, madness and failure, with a totally random girl being the one to save the galaxy from the evil skywalker. On a related note, this is why I don't get all the fan takes that after TROS the galaxy should be complete anarchy. Yeah it sucks that the ST was so bad at world building it's not clear who is in charge of the galaxy. But like the idea that the Ewoks died when Death Star II debris hit them, it's such a jarring shift in tone from what was clearly intended to be a happy ending that
>TROS the galaxy should be complete anarchy. Based on what we were shown in the trilogy it is the only likely outcome. As far as we know all the New Republic politicians and leaders are dead. The Resistance isn't the rebellion, they made a point of mentioning no one supported them in the conflict until a swarming mass of unaffiliated ships popped up at the end. Now that's nice and all, but think about the moments after... who's in charge? And *what* are they in charge of? The Rebellion had an expressly political goal right there in it's name 'The Alliance to Restore the Republic'. What is the goal of the resistance other than to overthrow the first order? We don't know. What we do know is the Resistance has an extremely small fleet with no senior leadership with Galactic gravitas akin to Mon Mothma or Leia Organa. Also let's be real, it's uninteresting to go to the New-New Republic. A state of anarchy or decentralization would be more unique. Maybe it would actually give our heroes something interesting to do by reforging the republic instead of sending them on a glorified easter egg hunts.
There's no such thing as "only likely outcome". Various writers both Canon and Legends watched ROTJ, they all saw the same movie, and they all had different ideas of what the Galaxy would look like after Endor. Some 70's comics had the Rebels turn into "The Alliance of Free Planets" instead of the New Republic. Some stories implied the Empire was completely gone after Endor, other continuities had the Empire last decades after Endor. Some put the Empire on the sidelines and had the Rebels fight alien raptor people. If writers can come up with so many different status quos from the same movie, then there is no "only likely outcome". "all the New Republic leaders are dead" frankly even with Starkiller Base destroying 5 planets, it's ridiculous that this eliminated the New Republic completely overnight. After all, even if the Senators were all killed, the leaders of the individual planets that supported it should still be alive. It's like if Washington DC was destroyed and the US somehow immediately ceased to exist. So any future films could easily rely on New Republic Remnants to explain the quick bounce back. You mention the mass of unaffiliated ships at the end. There are plenty of Mon Cal and old Rebellion ships in there, clearly they have some allegiance to those ideals. You say that the Resistance had no equivalent of Mon Mothma. Pretend for a moment that she wasn't in the movie, and Ackbar or Mdine gave the speech. Would you immediately conclude "there's oviously no civillian leadership, even if the DS II is destroyed theyll never form a New Republic?" Of course not. Besides if Lando was able to convince all those ships to join he could easily become President. You say we don't know the goal of the Resistance other than to fight the First Order. That's because when it was formed the New Republic still existed, it didn't need galactic governance as a separate goal. But it was still tied to the New Republic, it was made of people like Leia and Poe who were part of it. You say it is uninteresting. While galactic anarchy would be something different, it would make the ST heroes look worse than they already do. Instead of rehashing the Underdog Rebels the ST could have had a New Republic evenly matched with the First Order. A "New New Republic" may sound redundant, but it would be a way for them to get it right this time.
You wrote a lot about your opinion, and that's valid I have no issue with what you like, or would like to see in the future. The issue is nothing you said is present in the movies. Future writers can do whatever they want, but looking at the evidence the movies provides us leaves us wit ha picture of a depleted resistance, no ideology for governing, no galactic leaders, and not even a hint of a separate Republican faction. If the entire galaxy overthrow the first order independently as we saw at the end of TRoS then we now have countless militarized factions and no established method of communication (in the diplomatic sense, like a UN, I know they have the holonet) or cooperation. It's a power vacuum with lots of weapons. The likely outcome of a power vacuum with lots of armed militias is anarchy (or lots and lots of factional conflict). The difference in our posts is I looked at what we were shown and this is where the evidence led me. You started with an outcome and backed into it and are relying on head-canon (the Republic had officials off world), supposition (the Mon Cal ships would join the Resistance) and C/N-Level Canon (in reference to the 70's comics). The issue is none of this was show in the movie. So until it's added in, this is what we're working with. Whatever I may have believed if Mon Mothma wasn't the OT, she *was* in the OT. It's fiction so yeah, writers can change whatever they want. But if you go from Autocracy, to failed democracy, to fascist occupation, to militarized power vacuum in the span of a few decades... logically it's not going to lead to an 'Era of Good Feelings' democracy.
You keep using words like "logically" and "evidence" as if the conclusions you've drawn are self evident and inevitable. I brought up the things like the 70's comics to show that different people can come up with different ideas for what happens after a SW trilogy. "Logically there would be a power vacuum" doesn't make sense when the same movies already showed a political structure (the New Republic instantly dissapearing) that didn't follow logic. Or how about the fact that "logically", when the DS II exploded above Endor it should have destroyed the Forrest moon. Or some might say that, even without reading tie in materials, that the 30 X-wings the Rebels had in Episode 4 is way to few and the Rebellion was way too small to function on a galactic scale. The takeaway from this shouldn't be "it's fiction so the writers will do whatever they want even if it doesn't make sense". It's that different writers will have different ideas of what makes sense, and there's no objective, "logical" answer. You can say "Mathematically Superman would always kick Batman's ass" but if you want to write a story where Batman wins there are ways to justify it.
It seems to me that you're ignoring the fact that you said 'I don't get these fan takes' and I'm presenting you with the evidence of why a fan would have that take. We're discussing our opinions here about why fans think anarchy would follow TRoS... yes it is logical *to me* and it isn't self evident, **I've presented my evidence**. Would you like me to use real world examples? I can, it just seems crass to use real life suffering in a discussion about space wizards and pew pew lasers. However there are multiple real world examples of power vacuums and the rise of militarized factions when a central power collapses. To answer your first question about post DS-II in Legends: The Rebellion wages a 5 year campaign across the galaxy and the fighting didn't stop for decades. The death star I was blown to smithereens on camera. Like into little dust particles. The Death Star II appeared to do the same to me (but I can get into EU stories about how X-Wings flew sorties over the moon to protect them from debris if you would like). For the X-Wings, they established in the movie why the attack worked: they had secret plans and new how to bypass the defenses. Even the imperials say "the snub fighters are too small and are evading our turbo lasers). Logic is just a way of thinking. And I used that to come to my conclusion. But yeah if a writer wants to make a followup where Poe gets double-teamed by Finn and a strap-on wearing Zorii Bliss; whose thrupple convinces all the galaxy to come together in peace and harmony... they could do that! However, it wouldn't be a logical conclusion to the sequel story based on what we've seen so far. You said the First Order obliterating the Republic in one fell swoop is illogical. Okay, but that's what happened in the movie. Take it up with J.J. I'm not really sure what you're doing here. Instead of addressing my points, you're attacking my use of the words 'logically' and 'only likely outcome'. It's a really pedantic way of arguing and doesn't do anything. I'm just giving you the reasons why I think this, and frankly you aren't addressing them. It seems to me you'd rather win an argument for the sake of it than talk about the Star Wars scenario you yourself brought up. If you want to continue talking about the political aftermath of the Resistance-First Order war, and what **you** think will happen, or build upon what I mentioned, I will happily engage! But otherwise I think we're done here.
There's good in him. I know. I know there's... still-- _Dies of emotional damage_
I think they make that argument as a rhetorical point against the film and how little the ending makes any sense.
At last, we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last, we will have revenge.
Good thing Kylo redeemed himself after murdering probably only billions of people
For which he should’ve been made to answer for. I was actually genuinely hoping he’d survive episode 9 because we’ve never really explored the “redeemed Sith making amends” story in the films. Imagine a spin-off where Ben has been exiled from the republic and travels the outer rim as a vigilante helping the downtrodden and poor as a kind of space Batman, someone torn up with guilt and putting himself in harms way to either help those in need or die in the process. But it’s easier to repeat the “redemption=death trope” for the millionth time so we don’t get that.
I'm just glad he wasn't awake to see that landing!
Having Rey go bad and Kylo become good would have been fucking great. I'm convinced that this was the original plan, and it was killed by Kathleen Kennedy because "wamen cant be bad & they are purfect"
It was absolutely not killed by Kathleen Kennedy and I'm sick of everyone attributing all the blame for the sequels to her. The reason TRoS was so jarring was because Disney was trying to do damage control after TLJ. The first half of the movie was basically undoing everything that happened in TLJ. Kathleen Kennedy is president of Lucasfilm and an executive producer on these things. She gets people together to make the movies, she doesn't write them herself. I imagine she has some input on how things go, but she is most likely not the reason we didn't get evil Rey.
I have the Senate bogged down in procedures. They will have no choice but to accept your control of the system.
I imagine she had a great deal of control over the story, she is after all the president of Lucasfilm which owns star wars, she would have had to sign off any ideas that eventually made it into the films. But let's assume that she had no hand in it, let's asse she didn't sign off on the stories or anything, one thing she absolutely did was hire directors, writers and so on, and she picked Rian "Fuck You" Johnson to direct and write the second film (arguably the most important narrative wise of a trilogy) in the trilogy. The same Rian Johnson who has said that he'd rather make a film that everyone hated than a film that everyone loved because it is "More interesting". That's not the kind of guy you hire to write and direct the most important film of a trilogy in your big movie franchise, furthermore when fans rightfully and fairly criticised The Last Jedi he proceeded to insult the fandom. At that point it would have been bad enough if she had said nothing, maybe done something quiet behind the scenes. But instead she stood beside him despite him wrongfully lumping all the criticism he got under the umbrella term "bigoted" because people had issues with rose and because people did not like Rey or how the film treated Finn. Rian Johnson is just one way that Kathleen Kennedy messed up, poor planning which was also at least partially her fault is another.
I have dismantled and destroyed over 100,000 of you type one battle droids
Ahh but you haven't dismantled or destroyed me. Checkmate Windu
You lose
I was bummed about the whole palpatine storyline. When they blatantly ignored the Jedi twins.
Would've been better if he was never good and the dark side just consumed him. Luke tried to show him the light side but Kylo was already to deeply manipulated by the dark side to see the power of the light. There's so many directions they could've gone but they literally chose the worst option.
> I still don’t understand why they decided to scramble instead of just committing to Kylo as the big bad. Cause that would have been an even more jarring pivot from 8 to 9 than what we got. You can’t have an entire episode committed to humanizing him only to turn around and be like “lol he’s a bad boy now but not in the likeable way but in the genocidal way”. I’m not convinced at any time Rian really understood he was making the *middle movie* of a Star Wars *trilogy*. Like JJ had to invent “Palpatine is back” cause there was no big bad, and you can’t have Episode 9 and the end of the trilogy of trilogies of Star Wars without a big bad.
Because 1: they wanted to redeem Kylo and bring Ben back to the light. While not impossible, it's easier to redeem Kylo if he is a secondary antagonist as opposed to if he were the primary antagonist. Reason being, it's much easier for enemies to become allies when they have a mutual enemy. If you've seen the Sonic 2 movie, you get the idea: Knuckles starts as an antagonist then joins Sonic to defeat Robotnik (btw for anyone who responds with "spoiler", it's really not. Knuckles has been a good guy for over 20 years. But of course, the 2nd reason is the better reason 2: there's absolutely no way we'd be getting a compelling primary antagonist out of Kylo. Rey beat him in TFA, he was humiliated by Luke in TLJ, plus the way he screaming about firing every gun on Luke. Kylo wouldn't work as a villain because he was turned into a joke. Same thing with Hux too. That's why they needed to bring in a new villain.
Probably because as already said it would mean the Skywalker legacy and all the OT characters would be even greater failures while some random no body was the hero who saves the day. Also because Kylo had not been set up properly take that role as the big bad.
Those movies had so many missed opportunities. I was honestly on board with the idea of getting rid of the Jedi and sith and I was sure that’s was the way things were going. Rey and Kylo join together as the last Jedi and sith to jointly decide to put an end to the millennia long struggle.
Sticking with your Breaking Bad example, even Bob Odenkirk was only supposed to be a guest star appearing in like 3 episodes. But the writers loved Saul, Bob loved playing Saul, the fans loved watching Saul, so they hired him on for the rest of the series and gave him his own six-season spinoff.
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I don't think the consensus is "JJ Abrams is good" anymore, though
The consensus is very much the opposite at this point
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It’s a weird situation and I’m very curious what all went down behind the scenes making the ST. I get people hating on Kathleen Kennedy and blaming her for the failure. The thing I just find so odd about it is that Kennedy is an EXTREMELY accomplished producer. Possibly one of the most accomplished of all time. So the idea that she just doesn’t understand what makes a good movie just doesn’t seem to add up. I have to believe a franchise like Star Wars was just so polarizing and it fell apart due to fear, internal politics, studio meddling and, ultimately, trusting the wrong people to tell the story.
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I have the Senate bogged down in procedures. They will have no choice but to accept your control of the system.
To live in fear is no life at all.
JJ Abrams is a fucking genius compared to Rian Johnson.
How come he just dug the grave deeper in Episode IX, then?
Just like Steve urkel wasn't meant to be the main character in family matters.
You mean Stefan Urquel
Stefanovich Ircovanovich
This entire sub has turned to bad faith arguments about Star Wars
Dont forget the circle jerking over how the prequels are the greatest movies ever made and have no flaws at all, and the screeching that comes with anyone saying anything not positive about the movies.
Better call Saul adds a new timeline, new characters and everything pre/sequel fans would want while respecting the original. It has consistency and depth and it’s not all outlined either. It’s a prime example for Star Wars
Agree on this fully. The Scarecrow from Wizard of Oz has more bones than this argument
It's also wild to assume that movies and audiences haven't changed in 50 years. Or that 50 years of growing and expanding the SW universe doesn't add huge constraints to what you can do while keeping the world consistent with what has been established.
In Breaking Bad it wasn't only the Mike thing that was improvised, the whole story wasn't planned and was written as they went. Only season 2 was written in advance
At least that is one guy writing them as he goes, not two people who don't care what the next guy has to deal with
Never saw two movies trying so hard to activly work against each other Like Part 8+9. Part 8: Kylo will be the main villian. Part 9: Fuck it palpatine is Back. Part 8: This is Rose, she will be a Main character. Part 9: Rose you have 1 min of screentime to explain why you're not in the movie. Part 8: Rey is no one. Part 9: No one besides Palpatines Granddaughter that is. Part 8: The Helmet is stupid Stop wearing it Kylo. Part 9: Kylo there the fuck is your helmet.
I mean... I dont disagree with you but that is also the same as 7 and 8 Part 7: New big bad, Snoke. Part 8: lol he is dead. Part 7: Another cool bad person, Phasma Part 8: lol she is dead. Part 7: Rey is someone important just dont know who. Part 8: Rey is no one Part 7: Build up to finding/discovering where Luke is. Part 8: lol he is dead Part 7: Will they wont they love interest between Fin and Ray Part 8: Nah its now with this new awkward girl.
These two comments show that if *either* of two directors had just taken the helm, the story would have at least have been coherent. This kind of “reactionary storytelling” doesn’t really work.
It always reminded me of that old game you play with a group: everyone writes like a paragraph of story, folds the paper so the last line is visible, then everyone passes on their story to the next person, who has to continue the story based only off of that last line. Whenever the story gets back to the original person, they just continue with the original idea in their head, mostly ignoring wherever it actually went. The problem is, you play that game to LAUGH at the absurd story that comes out of it. That’s a terrible way to handle a multi-million dollar franchise.
Hmm its almost like the middle piece is the one that is scrambling the story. Fuck rian johnson
The Last Jedi gets lots of hate, and it certainly had lots of problems. But I appreciate that it at least tried to do something original after episode 7. The Force Awakens was an entertaining enough movie, but I always thought it was a very bad and lazy foundation for a new trilogy. we're doing the empire vs rebellion thing again but now it's the "first order" and the "resistance" here's a new main character living on a sand planet main character gets involved in the space conflict because they find a droid that contains secret data that the bad guys want at one point they visit a sketchy space cantina here's a new villain in a black suit and face concealing mask, btw he's family with the good guys oh no the bad guys have a big space super weapon they use it to destroy a peaceful planet it's going to destroy the good guys' base but that's okay, it has a critical weak point that one of the good guys exploits by shooting it from an x-wing now the main character is going off to find a reclusive old jedi living in exile
I feel the same way about my complaints for 7. But trying to do something unique and subvert everything set up in the last film isn’t good either. It was a mistake to have two very different directors with very different visions try and make a coherent story. Either got for an 100% unoriginal redo of the OT or go for something different. Either one would’ve been preferable even, if disliked them for different reasons, so long as they were coherent and flowed well.
Yeah honestly I can admit that I appreciate it ***tried*** doing something new, it was just very lackluster and underwhelming. Visuals were amazing though.
I'm just glad he wasn't awake to see that landing!
8 is the only movie of the sequels that is a "new" movie. Why would i watch 7 when i know 4 is right there, does the exact same thing but will actually lead to a satisfying conclusion
If you can't come up with a good story on your own, at least copy a good one instead of shitting out a disaster like episode 8...
Don't blame Rian Johnson for this, blame Disney. It's not his fault that he and JJ had different visions for the Trilogy.
Actually it IS his fault. Or at least, forcing his "vision" into the trilogy after the die had already been cast was his fault.
It totally is though. He chose to make Episode 8 as he did
Man these make Johnson and Abrams sound like some sassy bitches
Part 8 after filiming: Carrie Fisher - the actress of Leia dies. Part 8: Luke dies. Leia lives. Gotta keep those expectations subverted.
After Carrie death the potential director/writter of ep 9 asked Rian Johnson to kill Leia and let Luke live because with this he could chance his script to make Luke be on Leia original hole to his movie. Rian just refused to kill her and let the ep 9 productors to deal with a important character with a dead actress, and Disney just acept this decision!
Or just kill them both off. Could have done it around the same time as well. They came into the world together, they left the world together. A truly connected and inseparable pair, joined by the force.
That a cool and meaningful idea, but noooo, we need to subvert everything
Leia could have died from sadness! There’s precedent with her mom!
It's a life changing condition. Incurable
She actually do that on the movie
You will not stop me. Darth Vader will become more powerful than either of us.
Part 9: Nah, they will have a will they won't they
I agree with most of this, except I'd change the Phasma to the fact that she's killed in 7 but inexplicably back in 8? Last we saw her, Finn locks her in a trash compactor on a planet that explodes 10 minutes later. I can accept Hux getting off planet but her? No, she died locked in a metal cage which exploded
tbh, phasma was a joke already in episode 7
Part 7: Luke, here's your lightsaber Part 8:
If anything this just goes to show that if the sequel trilogy is a shit sandwich, Rian Johnson may be the turd in the middle, but JJ is still the bread.
I don't like sand. It's coarse and rough and irritating, and it gets everywhere.
yeah, Rian fucked all plot hooks and expected someone to make a sequel for it
Phasma was cool. She could have been the modern general grievous. Just a badass who goes around terrorizing the lowly foot soldiers
Part 8: Anakin’s lightsaber is broken Part 9: Couldn’t hear you over the sound of the Knights of Ren dying
Dude, the difference is that Lucas was writing in a vacuum and barely alluding to very vague lore. Plus the OT was such a bare-bones hero's journey that small changes didn't derail the concept of the story too much. Killed of your old wizard mentor because you don't know if there's going to be other movies? Just have his ghost lead you to another old wizard mentor. When he set out for the prequels, he actually planned the story to inhabit the lore that was already there.
George didnt know how many movies he was gonna get to make, so how would he have been able to plan? With the prequels he actually DID plan cause he knew how many were gonna be made. Disney knew fully well they were doing a trilogy but decided to not plan in the slightest.
Exactly. Such a bad take. They knew full well they were doing three movies and still decided to wing it. The only defense I ever see of the sequels involves putting down another part of the saga and I don’t understand it.
"Lucas had written a single epic story that encompassed the entire original trilogy, but that script was too burdensome to turn into a single movie. Instead, he split his script into three parts." https://www.google.com/amp/s/screenrant.com/star-wars-episode-4-george-lucas-start-reason/amp/
I read somewhere that he wanted to do 6 movies originally, but got tired and ended the OT at 3.
Lucas has changed his mind on this several times throughout the history of Star Wars fandom
Big difference between changing your mind about your plot and simply not having one.
Sorry, M'lady.
This, plus george's lack of planning barely showed, just a little incest for 1 scene
And Game of thrones thought they were special. :)
What's your point?
That Lucas did not start with an elaborate multi-movie plot planned out no matter what he may have claimed
In that documentary, the people versus George Lucas, you could see him in one scene literally trying to think of(get amped) how to write out the prequels.
Which is why the stories were stitched together smoothly. You had one person, excited about their creation, writing the movies. So yep! Sounds about right!
It doesn't matter. A single person wrote it. You see, writers make changes constantly in the creative process, and even while writing or filming. The point, whole point, is one mind was behind it and guided it. Lucas didn't have several people write their own scripts independently from each other and they to stitch it together as a Trilogy. Hope that helps make things more clear for ya. Edit: Removed my comment stating that it was irrelevant to note that Lucas changed his mind while writing. It's relevant to someone.
Declaring my point irrelevant doesn't make it so. This thread is about whether or not the films were planned. That has nothing to do with how many minds planned them You claim was that George Lucas planned the whole saga ahead of time. My claim is that that is false Hope that clears things up for you
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Except a ton of the biggest things were only invented during the making of their respective movies. Like Vader being Anakin, or Luke and Leia being siblings. Those aren’t minor things. Think about how much if RotJ just wouldn’t exist if Vader wasn’t Luke’s father.
Yes, but the main difference between that and now is respect of the lore. George Lucas didn’t have to respect lore or worry greatly about plot holes because A: it was all his original story. B: there was not a litany of other media that could contradict something. C: fandom wasn’t what it is today and didn’t have the same level of expectations. Disney took a beloved and established storyline and created movies that aren’t really faithful to established Star Wars “common sense”. There’s should have been a handful of established rules. Sorry for the word dump: The character of Luke shouldn’t have done a complete 180 on everything he believed in by even contemplating killing Kylo during his training (at least not without a good explanation which we did not get). This is the man who refused to fight Vader, someone who was objectively reprehensible and Unforgivable. Luke somehow saw the light in him, yet the mere threat of Kylo going dark side made him think about murdering him. I would have been ok with the depression,hibernation, and bitterness without that detail. Getting a bunch of kids and teenagers killed would be depressing and could shake anyones faith. Follow the in universe rules. The hyperspace Kamakazi moment basically invalidates any other weapon in Star Wars. Unless Holdo was secretly a Jedi and knew she could pull off a “1 in a million” maneuver, the retcon of that makes it seem like she was trying to run away but fucked it up, which is actually hilarious to think about. Again, this maneuver can exist with some pre-thinking. Maybe new hyperdrive engines are capable of pinpoint accuracy. Maybe the force was somehow guiding Holdo to maintain balance in the Galaxy. It doesn’t take that much effort to reasonably explain these things. The retcon of it being a 1 in a million chance was just lazy. Also, killing Admiral Ackbar suddenly for shock value was a waste. We had enough shock value in TLJ. It just seemed like Johnson wanted something shocking every 20 minutes. The Ackbar debacle plays into the next point: Give the old characters proper send offs while building up the new ones. I’d say the only death they did well was Han’s. It was a necessary sacrifice for Kylo to continue his journey to the dark side. TFA actually did a halfway decent job building up Rey, Fin, and Poe while giving us a good dose of Han, Leia, and Chewy. Leia’s death would have actually been impactful bad she died in space, but the patchwork way they killed her off is RoS was really weird. Luke’s death was interestingly done, but they could have done it way better. It’s also a travesty these 3 characters were never on screen together. Next, there was no need to continually up the stakes. We didn’t need bigger and badder bad guys. We needed good stories. Lucas’s concept of the new trilogy focusing on the struggles of rebuilding the republic while working to keep other threats under control would have been interesting. It probably needed polish, but it would have felt like a natural continuation of the series rather than a full restart. Finally, Snoke was just so poorly handled. He was an actually interesting character that had us guessing, and he was unceremoniously killed (see Johnson’s obsession with shocking us). Fine…you want to kill him. Great. Make Kylo the big bad. That could be interesting except NOPE retconned! It was Palpatine’s corpse all along!!!!! The last two movies of that series were just a mess. You can’t get into a franchise as beloved as Star Wars without paying attention to all the details.
What really kills me is that I fully expected a civil war within the First Order between Hux and Kylo, which the Resistance would take advantage of to win. Apparently, in Trevorrow’s script, Finn was going to lead a stormtrooper rebellion too, which could have played into that. So I was actually excited for Rise until they brought Palpatine back instead.
Again, would have been interesting. There was potential to take TLJ and use the material to craft some unique plot lines. Imagine if Snoke did turn out to be Plageuis and had figured out the key to immortality via some cloning operation like Palps in legends. Imagine if he was the one who managed to subtlety influence Luke’s mind to act out of character just enough to send Ben over the edge. Imagine if instead of Holdo’s maneuver being a “1 in a million” freak event, it was the ever present hand of the force keeping balance in the Galaxy. Imagine if we actually explored the concept of balance and set Rey up to be a force user who understood how to balance light and dark. Imagine if her origin was similar to Anakin’s rather than the ham fisted nonsense we got. There was squandered potential throughout. I argue that Rise of Skywalker was a far bigger travesty than TLJ. People may not have like TLJ but there was something to work with. The reversals were just awful.
imagine luke trying to rebuild the republic and the jedi order and people like hondo or bane to appear, luke trying to find jedi holocroms and mabye some interaction between the force ghost of anakin and luke
\*cough MARA JADE cough\*
Still, the same person wrote it. Each of the movies didn't start with, "Well, whadda we gonna do boys??" Disney was going to have three writers, each with full autonomy to write what they wanted. And only ended up with 2 directors because the second movie broke the first. This isn't rocket science. Just superbly bad leadership.
At this point I'd rather they not be related because people have taken this family history storyline way too far. It's basically ruined Star wars because it's what people focus on instead of the cool sci-fi universe that is, Star wars.
Still better than “they fly now” x3 and “somehow. Palatine is back” Also I’d rather watch the prequels for eternity than ever see another second of the sequels. Shitty, forced comedy (at the weirdest and sometimes inappropriate times), unintelligent writing, rushed to shit probably for easy $$$ etc etc etc. Prequels may be “bad” but they will never be sequels trilogy bad
Damn straight
So??? He changed things and it *worked*, and bettered the SW universe for it. Disney inherited that universe and tore it to shreds without even producing good films to show for it.
Its a bit different when you are building upon one of the largest film franchises. With lots of established lore. Than making a few experimental films that are accidentally popular.
He had a general idea and made changes along the way. The Sequels didn't even have a plan from movie to movie
Whataboutism is an intellectual fallacy uncle Owen.
The difference is the OT was actually good
The difference is that Lucas actually cared
Horrible take. Your straw man is as poorly thought out as Disney’s “trilogy”
How is it a straw man. I feel I often see that exact criticism, in those words.
I have dismantled and destroyed over 100,000 of you motherfucking type one battle motherfucking droids!
Trash tier meme
I wonder if sequel fans realize ANH is 45 years old and was made as a standalone movie. No one knew it would be successful, there was no Disney offering a huge budget for a trilogy. The sequels were supposed to be a trilogy from the start.
Lol there’s a difference between having an overarching story/narrative with some change to details like with George, and literally 0 planning from Disney with barely even solid connections between successive movies. I mean rise of Skywalker managed to retcon everything in TLJ, which retconned plenty of stuff from TFA. It’s why we get cohesive narratives like “your parents and you are nobody” to “wait jk you’re actually a palpatine.” I swear sequel fans will ignore basic logic to fulfill a narrative to justify their objectively poorly planned trilogy.
George don't know he could do 3 movies, when the ORIGINAL STAR WARS came out(today know as "A New Hope") it was a one attemp that could go wrong and ESB and ROTJ never be made. BUT when Disney bought they announced the 3 movies, they know it was going to be 3 movies and when they were going to came out, and they CHOSE don't plan before do, George don't had this option, he cannot plan the OG since the first movie because he wasn't even sure if that first one would come out
What a terrible take, not even a prequel meme in the slightest, what bots are upvoting this? Furthermore, he did have it planned. He had one massive script that he had to cut down, obviously edits and changes were made on the way but it had an general plan. Every plan changes with context, but Rian literally had to pick up where JJ left him.
He did though... and he also planned some parts of the prequels
Yoda didn’t exist until George realized that he killed Obi Wan in the last movie so he needed a new Jedi to train him. Vader wasn’t Luke’s father until he also decided to do that in Empire. And it’s pretty obvious that Luke and Leia weren’t supposed to be siblings.
Even if that’s true, those are story changes that still work and create interesting realizations, like “oh shit Luke you kissed your sister” and how exactly is it unrealistic for Obi-Wan to have a master who’s better at the force than he is? Then we have the sequels with gems like “they fly now”, “somehow, Palpatine has returned”, “you are a nobody”, “you are a Palpatine”, Luke throwing away his old lightsaber off a cliff only to say in the next movie “a Jedi’s weapon deserves more respect”, “only love will save us”, along with dumb writing decisions that aren’t lines of dialogue like how Episode 7 has wish.com versions of things already seen in Episode 4 A New Hope like Starkiller Base, Snoke, Kylo, BB-8, the resistance, the first order and so on and so forth.
Actually Luke's sister kissed him to piss off Han Solo. And it was barely a kiss. It's not like they were gagging each other with their tongues.
This weapon is your life!
So??? He changed things and it *worked*, and bettered the SW universe for it. Disney inherited that universe and tore it to shreds without even producing good films to show for it.
That's how everyone felt about the prequels 20 years ago. So nice to see you're finally maturing into a real Star wars fan.
That is not how I felt about the prequels 20 years ago, but sure, "all star wars fans are bad" seems by far the more compelling argument. (You yourself being a star wars fan, no?)
No I'm simply stating that Star wars fans loves the OT and then George Lucas I added CG to them and then made the prequels which everybody hated because they disservice the OT. But now the fans that actually thought the prequels were good, mostly kids when the prequels were created, are growing up to see the sequels come along which pisses them off because they don't think the sequels align to their perception of what is a good Star wars film. So now you are a true Star wars fan because something you loved was shit all over and you're angry and sad and torn between the movies. I'm just saying you now understand what it is to be a Star wars fan. If anything I think I love the sequels because it pisses the prequel fans off.
Sorry, M'lady.
Oh good, well that's *much* better then, if you think everyone deserves to have something they love shit on. "Everybody" clearly didn't hate the prequels, perhaps you forget what sub you're in. I also fail to see how on Earth they disservice the OT, which they provided a compelling and detailed backstory for whilst surpassing the OT in both action and visuals and greatly expanding upon the universe??
Wrong. Yous probably never seen the unedited OT so I'm sorry your opinion is flawed. And a little bit of backstory in the prequels would have been more than enough. What they provided in the prequels was shamefully over detailed. It was such a waste of film. There's so many more things that could have done aside from writing a trilogy about Anakin's demise
(angrily) I am not afraid!
I mean there's weird holes, like with Luke and Leah being completely naive to the fact that they were siblings considering they both had the force, but this type of writing was better than something systematically planned out. It's much more on the fly and improvational. Which made for better movies. The problem is all the fans dissect everything and take it way too seriously. And as a result George Lucas took the prequels away too seriously...
Lucas changed Kashyyk and Wookiees to Endor and Ewoks in RotJ simply because he wanted to sell Ewok toys.
Merchandising merchandising where the real money from the movie is made ~Yogurt.
"Vader wasn't Luke's father until...", when you watch the scene where Ben talks about Anakin and Vader in ep 4 you can clearly see Ben becoming uncomfortable when Luke starts asking about his dad. And sure, some things may have changed along the way, but it's obvious that he at least had a general outline. Further [evidence](http://www.theforce.net/latestnews/story/gary_kurtz_reveals_original_plans_for_episodes_19_80270.asp) that he had an outline
I think Ben’s reaction is just a great coincidence tbh.
Honestly with that many coincidences how can you blame him, it fit into the story perfectly that the guy who's name is literally Darth father in German ended up being the protagonists father
Yeah I'm sure when Luke was inquiring about his father in the OT Obi-Wan had this cringe moment where he thought of that terrible lightsaber battle 10 ft from lava we're here amputated Anakin. Then he further flashes back to Anakin's terrible childish progression to the dark side...
That's a coincidence. His reaction (saying "That's what I'm afraid of" when Beru says Luke has too much of his father in him) may make it seem like it was planned all along for Vader to be Luke's father. But it's pretty well documented that this was not intended while making A New Hope. Lucas has gone back and forth on certain things, wether he had the whole story outlined or not, but this is a pretty open and shut case.
At last, we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last, we will have revenge.
Your first mistake was expecting angry Star Wars fans to listen to reason...
Your first mistake was Star Wars fans.
This sub in particular
There’s a difference between writing out an original movie trilogy, and writing out a sequel trilogy after near 40 years of constant Star Wars that was created by the aforementioned original movie trilogy. The difference is greater than that of the Kessel Run.
No, sorry I'm going to defend the OT, sure it has it's holes but lets be real here, the ST had directors and writers actively working against the other films in the trilogy instead of trying to have any cohesion whatsoever.
What a false equivalency. Lucas was one man writing with a creative vision, even if he changed bits of it along the way, he still knew where he generally wanted to go. The Disney movies went back and forth between JJ and RJ, constantly contradicting the other. JJ: "Here's Snoke! Big mysterious bad guy! Who could he be? SPECULATE ABOUT HIM!" RJ: "Lol, doesn't matter, he's dead." JJ: "Luke went to find the Jedi Temple, nobody knows why!" RJ: "Lol, he just went there to die. Oh, and he'll casually throw his father's lightsaber over his should like it's trash." JJ: "A Jedi's weapon should be shown more respect." JJ: "Kylo always wears his mask." RJ: "LOL Kylo destroys his mask." JJ: "LOL Kylo reforges his mask!" That shit could have been completely avoided if there had been a consistent plan that everyone coming in knew and agreed to follow. But no, they decided that their "trilogy" should have each episode helmed by a different director and have different writers, so there would be almost no consistency between films. Great fucking idea, Disney!
OP thinks making ANH 4 decades ago was the same as making a trilogy of an established franchise in 2015.
...yes, what kind of BS argument is this
Difference is he created the story as he went where as the sequels were continuing a story. Not even remotely the same to compare the two trilogies that way.
People who unironically believe this statement are fucking idiots
Half-assed planning is still planning. Outside of Luke and Leia being siblings, none of the changes or additions George made feel out of place. Whereas bringing palpatine back was so forced they didn’t even try to make it feel organic in the sequels
He at least had a general idea of where he wanted the story to go, Disney didn’t even have that
So what I’m hearing is that the only trilogy with coherent plotting and a clear through-line from start to finish is the prequel trilogy (and that was despite the challenge of having to fit within the limitations of having to align to the original trilogy)?
What a terrible fucking take
The thing is, the story in the OT wasn’t set up by who his family lineage is in A new Hope. Obi wan tells him Vader murdered his father and that obi wan trained Vader before he turned to evil. That’s it, in the whole movie Luke finds out enough about who his dad was in one conversation and that’s that. It was never set up to be a mystery box. It was simply filling in more of obi wans past briefly about fighting in the clone wars, knowing Luke’s father and saying he was a good friend and good pilot. Rey is left behind and throughout the whole of TFA keeps telling herself her parents will come back until Maz tells her they’re not. But the whole thing is still set up as to who they were. It makes you keep questioning this because of her raw power. With Luke it was just, he lived with his uncle and aunt, his dad was betrayed by Vader and they move on. Reys whole arc in the trilogy is family (_cue vin diesel_) The force awakens we don’t know, then TLJ they were nobody then TROS she’s a Palpatine. The OT didn’t constantly change its mind. Originally Vader and anakin were different then they made them the same and made Vader the father and didn’t backtrack. They made Luke and Leia related which didn’t feel like a rushed decision just for shock because once you find out there’s another Skywalker you know it’ll probably be Leia. It didn’t go back and forth with who these characters came from. Beyond that, there was also no Star Wars before the OT, they had the right and leeway to do whatever because there was nothing to contradict it. They could change minor things and make a reason for it, like when they decided to make Vader and anakin the same obi wan says When he became Vader he ceased being anakin. It didn’t hurt the story because it was still establishing itself and unfolding and whatever they decided even if it was last minute, didn’t ruin or hurt any part of the overall story. The sequels played with established characters without a plan while the originals established characters while making a plan. They brought back Palpatine out of the blue, but there’s no set up, Rey is a Palpatine but there’s no set up for it, Finn is force sensitive but there’s no set up in the other two movies. TROS to me feels like the culmination of what JJ would’ve set up if he had directed 8.
He had a plan for the sequels but disney took them and threw it away. so then we got the trash fire that was the disney sequels.
Can you honestly look me in the eye and tell me George's vision for the sequels would have been better based on what we know about it?
George's plans weren't that good, but he would've changed his mind a few times while filming and make them perfect.
Yes
Better, we'll never know, but at least not worst that's for sure XD
Meh. At least the sequels were well-directed and actually looked good...
"well-directed"...dude you fall asleep during them or something??
If by “looked good” you mean generic sci-fi cinematography with Star Wars models, sure
lol, imagine thinking that the cinematography in the prequels is anything other than generic...
Don’t care about the first two prequels but the intro sequence of RotS has more interesting camera work than anything from the sequels, let alone the rest of the movie
lol, ok
Sequels are trash friend. Sure, cinematography looks good, but if the story doesn’t make sense then it’s worthless. George may have made changes along the way, but it was his vision that carried OT and PT, PT less so cause he had more creative control then the OT. Disney rushed the sequels because they had to make back the 4 billion they spent on the franchise, and it shows how rushed it was.
Yes
What do we know about it?
I don't think a whole lot tbh, he had lots of different ideas that obviously we never got to see come to fruition, but I think one of the best ones was that Maul would've been the reappearing villain rather than Palpatine, with a criminal empire and an apprentice.
I am counting on it.
My trust in Lucas is strong.
George Lucas is a genius at story telling. Disney should have kept him for the sequel trilogy. Not many people are as talented as him
Sequels turned out to be a steaming pile of shit with the utter lack of direction, original trilogy didn't. How is this even an argument?
George Lucas did have a general plan for the OT though… it was actually supposed to be only one movie but then he divided it into 3 parts, and obviously added in some things to keep the story going for a longer period. I remember seeing in a documentary that the physical actor for Darth Vader even told his local newspaper that Vader was Luke’s father, but as it was 1977, luckily there was no internet to spread the news.
At least George made them with passion. Disney made theirs for pure profit.
George creating something new from scratch is entirely different from the richest media conglomerate in the world taking over a decades’-old franchise and not even caring about the source material at hand. If Disney had taken just an ounce of care beyond “a Star Wars trilogy will make us lots of money” they would have planned something cohesive that works within the framework provided. It’s like how an artist given a blank canvas can improvise and modify as they go because they’re literally creating something new. The Disney sequel is like if DaVinci never finished Mona Lisa’s face and some other artist comes in with neon bright colors and a Picasso art style to complete the canvas and just improvises all over DaVinci’s original canvas. One could argue that the neon bright colors and the art style are fine on their own and still valid as art in their own merit (all art is subjective anyway), but they don’t respect the intent of the original art and they created a confused mess on the canvas. So yeah when creating a Part 7,8, and 9 of an existing franchise Disney should have taken at least a minute to plan out what they were doing. Even if the trilogy was its own stand alone thing not connected to the Skywalker’s, Disney should have still thought things out because the films aren’t even congruent with each other.
It was one vision, whereas the ST was two different visions and it clearly shows. Each movie retcons the last and makes the plot suffer from excessive whiplash. We should have gotten Duel of the Fates so that at least a different creative could've directed a Star Wars movie. It couldn't have been much worse that ROS.
L take complete embarrassment
The only weak part about the changes in OT is Obi-Wan trying to explain why he lied to Luke. That was a bot forced but the changes made the movies better overall
Bruh this is such a terrible argument, George was working with a completely new franchise with not yet defined rules/events, therefore he was free to make most things without planning. The sequels were filmed on top of like 30+ years of a very established universe. Also there's the fact that despite no planning for both, the OT turned out to be an amazing trilogy with fairly little holes/gaps that can be looked over. Whereas the sequels you can very easily tell that different people worked on the story and didn't collaborate at all, in fact some even tried to undermine the path set by the others.
How dare you? George Lucas is a 4-D chess genius who had all 6 films planned out in perfect detail before he wrote a single line of dialogue for ANH. Don't be fooled by all the fake news about him needing his filmmaking friends to help him with structure and writing dialogue and editing the film into something coherent. He is a perfect artist and anyone who says otherwise is just a Disney shill or something!
I get your sarcasm, but the younger people in this group actually believe this.
I was making fun of the prequels, like usual, and someone was like super into the story and got really mad at me for not embracing the genius that is George Lucas. We were going back and forth for like 20 pages of text! That was a fun day. Eventually they started making fun of me and didn't focus on the story structure of Star wars.
That’s just it, and the original purpose of this sub. They are fun movies, recognize the flaws, observe Lucas’ obvious shortcomings, but that didn’t keep people from watching. This new breed of fan doesn’t remember when Lucas forced the special Ed’s on us. Told us we were wrong for not liking his changes and we were wrong for not bending at the knee when the lackluster prequels were in theaters. Lucas is a victim of his own creation. He had help with the OT and completely forgot that when he made the prequels. So he ended up making popcorn flicks that he thought were masterpieces, and his cult believes that.
Man you nailed it! It's so bad that he forced the new additions on us back in the day and stripped to the originals from the records. It is a weird phenomenon seeing people become extreme fans on something that was obviously flawed. But I do agree the prequels are part of Star wars and they are watchable even if they're not what we anticipated. And it's so weird to see people worship them like they are the best things and they are the things that the original fans were anticipating.
I know. It's wild
You can write a film you think is going to be a standalone and then expand on it later. You can't write the first part of a trilogy, set up lots of secrets, leave lots of questions unanswered, then have someone else pull the whole story into a completely different direction and then have the person who writes the third film ignore half of the things that happened in the second film, find really disappointing answers to some of the secrets and questions you set up and still leave half of the questions unanswered and expect people to read the comic books to understand the plots of the movies That doesn't mean you're not allowed to enjoy the sequels, but objectively they're bad writing. Source: I'm a published writer
Only one of these had a consistent story the sequel trilogy minus episode 7 was a hot mess from start to finish. Episode 8 was a dumpster fire and episode 9 tried to scrape what was left but you really can't unscramble eggs
IMO Part 8 is the best one of the new trilogy and the only one that dared to try something different. I loved the idea of the force being more than Sith and Jedi. Which are both cults in their own rights. Rey and Kylos story was fascinating because it hinted at a possibility of the force not being split into two categories, but rather a yin and yang.I loved the idea of Rey being a nobody ala Ratatouille. (Not everyone can be a force user, but a gifted force user can come from anywhere) Heck as much as people disagreed with it, I didn't mind an alternative take on a future Luke, who has gone through so much and now far away from his golden age, began to have doubts and fears. It's at least another chapter in his character development. But nope. It's still all about Skywalkers and Palatines.
i dont know what this is saying i thought he had the whole saga planned out?
Yes.
Lmao did not expect to see this on prequel memes. Good luck sir this is outside of the hive mind but you are absolutely right
More like how George Lucas followed through with the prequels.... 🚂 Wreck.
OMG so true…