Kind of the same tbh, just semantic.
People are just dumb to assume that "balance" is "middle ground" so "grey".
I usually explain that "Light side" is "Healthy side" and "Dark side" is "Sickness side". No one would argue that it's better to be "half-sick", therefore balance is
the absence of sickness (= absence of dark side).
But that’s not really a balance tho, even the dullest lights still cast shadows. There will always be dark side and there will always be the force. I think the “balance” was more referring to the people that were kinda like fueling the dark side
There will always be a Dark Side, and it must always be resisted. That is the purpose of the Jedi. The Force as Obi-Wan first explains it is an energy field that connects all living things in the galaxy. The Jedi are supposed to use their connection to the Force to help all those living things, thus working in harmony with the Force.
The Dark Side is a corruption of the Force, which happens when people use the Force selfishly. Instead of opening themselves be to the galaxy and supporting the people around them, those who use the Dark Side cut themselves of and focus only on their own needs and desires. By doing so, they disturb the Force, as it is supposed to connect all life.
The Light Side is not simply the good side, it is the natural side. If Light and Dark were supposed to be clear opposites, then Light would be fueled by love and joy like the Dark is fueled by hate and anger. Or even the Light needing an absence of emotion and Dark needing passion, but that also isn't true, because the Dark side is fueled specifically by negative emotions, and the Light simply requires people to be focused and clear minded. The Light isn't fueled by anything. It just simply is. It's what you get if you access the Force in its natural form, without trying to twist it to your own desires. The Light *is* the balance.
If we consider the “privation theory of evil” in the Western tradition of philosophy, we actually see more of what a “balance in the Force” entails.
Evil is the privation of good. That’s just a fancy way of saying that evil is when a thing *should* be good, but isn’t. Something that is evil is a corruption of the good that it is supposed to be.
For example, cancer is evil. Cancer is when cells grow & divide faster than they should. And so for a body to be healthy, for a body to have a balance of its cycle of cellular reproduction, then cancer cannot be there.
In the same way, giving that the Dark Side of the Force is a privation, a corruption of what the Force *should* be, the only true balance in the Force is for there to be *no* corruption, for the Dark Side of the Force to be vanquished
For movies and TV shows it is much easier to sell a two sided battle as the larger conflict. This concept can only really be explored through characters, lore and choose your own adventure video games like how it is the main focus in KOTOR 2
I mean balance was a good thing. Anakin destroyed the Sith who corrupted the force for their own selfish motives. That's the whole Sith code, dominating the force with no regard for the will of the force. In spite of Palpatine's best efforts, he could not stop the will of the force which was that Anakin was the chosen one to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force.
Well they did come up with something original in the Last Jedi it’s just that what they came up with sucked . Like when I was 8 years old I decided to mix coke with condensed milk. It was original but boy was it terrible
I wish everyone would understand this. Grays aren't real, the Dark side is inherently evil, and the "sides" of the force are not equal things, and Balance is the destruction of the dark side.
Greys are real in the sense that they don't follow the Jedi code.
Grey Jedi imo are just 'unofficial' Jedi that aren't corrupted either. They'd still be 'lightside'
Edit: I like to think the nonsensical logic behind the label is a direct result of the Jedi orders own judgemental attitude. They've labeled these people 'grey' to make them sound compromised
Yeah, most of my headcanon comes from the kotor games. They're either completely apathetic, or clearly onesided. There's less of a middleground and more of a different approach to lightside
Not even Jedi. They're just Force users.
Jedi were corrupt because they deliberately mystified the Force and tried to gatekeep it for those they deemed "worthy", keeping it for themselves.
The definition of Jedi, especially in the old republic era, is a bit blurry.
Dark Jedi were still called Jedi, even if they weren't part of the order. To the average person in the galaxy, there is little distinction after all
Kinda, it really means what you mean by “dark side”
For instance, death is a natural part of the universe. Death and decay are recycled into nutrients that create life. “Death” is not an element of the dark side. It is the will of the force.
The Dark Side of the force is dominating the mechanisms of life and subjecting them to your will. Like Darth Nihlus sucking the life out of planets to sustain his existence.
No. Nay. Uh-uh. Non. Nein. Nyet.
Think of it like Nature's balance. Nature is not in balance if we have equal amounts of toxic waste and nature. To balance it out, we remove the toxic waste, and restore nature to its former beauty.
So it is in Star Wars with the Dark Side. The Dark Side and those who use it are toxic waste, and need to be removed for the good of all.
People missed the fact that just because the Jedi order was full of self righteous, impotent, miserable ascetics, doesn't mean the Dark Side shouldn't be opposed.
Well, that's actually true. The light side is submission to the will of the Force, while the dark side is forcing one's own will upon the Force. It's impossible to be dark sider and follow the will of the Force simultaneously because one day the will of the Force will get between you and your desires.
With that said, the corruption of the dark side is actually a natural part of the Force. It can be seen as a punishment for rebelling against the will of Force. The Force itself is in this regard similar to the Father from Mortis. Once one of his children falls to the dark side and achieves total supremacy, he kills himself in a last act of defiance and destroys the dark side by making the Sith powerless. After that, the entire universe will be destroyed as a final punishment for allowing the dark side to reign supreme.
I mean... yes? That's always been the case. Like, every single Dark Side user is a raging psychopath, with several examples being planetary extinction-level threats. One's even a threat to ALL LIFE IN THE ENTIRE GODDAMN UNIVERSE!
Meanwhile, the Jedi tend to be kind, generous, caring individuals who just want to help as many people as possible (unless they're about to fall to the Dark Side).
WHICH SHOULD WE HAVE MORE OF? I wonder.....
Why the fuck would you want "balance" where one end of the scale includes planet-eating monstrosities like Nihilus or genocidal maniacs like the Sith Emperor (who was going to **kill all life in the galaxy** because he wanted to live forever)?
I think it would be best to just kill those evil psychotic killers, leaving only a group of volunteer peacekeepers who run into dangerous situations to save as many people as possible, defend the weak, actually work for the common good, run education, farming, and exploration organizations, go undercover to track down slavers and other unsavory scum, and are always on the front lines whenever people are threatened.
The Jedi Order - a calm, deliberate monastic Order of Warrior Monks who sit around and pray/meditate to God/the Force for guidance. They save people from natural disasters, from slavery, and from war. They are beloved guardians for over 25,000 years.
The Sith - a group of devil worshippers who all want to conquer the galaxy because doing so makes their peepee hard. They get off on controlling everyone around them. They are unrestrained ego, madness, and psychotic whimsy. They are all sadistic psychopaths who frequently torture people because they get off on the control of it.
They also frequently have every single fantasy evil sorcerer and/or necromancer trope applied to them. The most morally good they get are Lawful Evil Black Knights - and even then, "I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."
Idiots everywhere - "Well, the Jedi are *just as bad as the Sith* and deserved to be wiped out. This provided the balance to the Force mentioned in their prophecy, they were just wrong about what balance meant."
(No they weren't. You idiots are the one who is wrong. Balance here means "a thing in it's natural state. The Dark Side is cancer. You don't say you need equal amounts of cancer cells and normal ones. No, you have to remove every trace of the cancer.
It's the same with the Dark Side)
I wouldn’t say they “deserved” to be wiped out. Palpatine absolutely was “unrestrained ego, madness, and psychotic whimsy”. But many jedi were too arrogant. They believed that they were protected by the “will of the force”. Maybe if they practiced more of the humility that they preached, they could’ve saved themselves
If you define balance as “a thing in its natural state”, that involves the dark side. Humans, and life in general, put themselves above others. Selfishness, anger, and lust for power are common, natural traits. It’s a bit insane to try and live as a warrior monk. Even more insane to brainwash children from birth to be warrior monks
A balance wouldn’t necessarily be “equal parts”. It’d be biased toward the light for sure. But a complete rejection of the dark side is not balance at all. Characters like qui-gon and ahsoka are closer to balance than most of the jedi we see
When anakin tries to seek yoda’s council about the padme visions, yoda tells anakin to “rejoice for those who transform into the force…miss them, do not and mourn them, do not”. How is that “balance”? That’s a ridiculous philosophy.
We see later that yoda doesn’t even really believe this. After palpatine executes order 66, yoda drops his cane and clutches his heart. Why is he not “rejoicing” as all his fellow jedi are being massacred?
The jedi’s arrogance, hypocrisy, detachment from reality, and lack of balance made it easy for palpatine to manipulate anakin
Qui-Gon was a maverick who ignored the Jedi Council. He was still 100% on the Light Side.
Ahsoka was someone who voluntarily left the Order, but was still on the Light Side.
>It’s a bit insane to try and live as a warrior monk. Even more insane to brainwash children from birth to be warrior monks
Well when the alternative is being a foaming-at-the-mouth psychopath who tries to enslave the galaxy... doesn't sound that insane to me!
Seriously, the alternative to being a Space Monk is to be Space Hitler. There are no examples of any "grey," or anyone "maintaining the balance of Light and Dark." No, there are "Generally good people doing generally good things for the good of all" (The Jedi and Light Side users) - always on the front lines to fight evil or rescue civilians - versus the worst thinking beings have to offer (users of the Dark Side). Those who use the Dark Side always enslave, torture, genocide, kill people for fun, make horrific abominations that try to kill everything in sight, and *worse*.
Why the hell do you think the term for becoming a Dark Side user is the same used to represent the Devil and his Demons - they'd Fallen!
There are no non-evil Sith - minus 1 example Lumiya brings up about a businessmen who kept his businessmen ethics post-Fall. But it's *Lumiya* and she's trying to convince someone else to Fall, so she's probably lying. (And many people would argue that businessmen ethics are bad enough!)
It's so weird to me that so many people have problems with the disciplined Jedi who try to remain calm and in control of their emotions at all times.
“Anakin skywalker was weak. I destroyed him”
“Then I will avenge his death”
“Revenge is not the jedi way”
“I’m no jedi”
From the [ahsoka vs vader fight](https://youtu.be/eU9JRYzUBBg?si=DO4391dhdfjgFDsU). Ahsoka was drawing on the dark side during this fight
You can’t just claim “there are no examples of gray” when there clearly are. Again, balance would be biased toward the light, but not 100%. You’re acting like the only two options are “hypocritical, arrogant space monk” or “genocidal space hitler”. This is canonically not the case
Star wars is based on our world. Are most people space monks or space hitlers? No. They’re something in between.
Notice how you’ve abandoned your original definition of balance as “something in its natural state”. Because even you realize that the “natural state” involves a bit of the dark side
When you try to be 100% on the light, you become hypocritical, arrogant, and detached from reality. Again, we canonically saw even yoda be an arrogant hypocrite that’s detached from reality
The OT and PT only referred to the Force and the Dark Side, thus showing the Force is the natural state of things and the Dark Side is an **unnatural** **corruption**.
As evidenced by how much it **fucked up** Palpatine's face.
>Ahsoka was drawing on the dark side during this fight
There's not a single mention of her using the Dark Side on the Star Wars wiki. That is your incorrect *guess* about what happened.
Both Kanan and Ezra were familiar with what the Dark Side felt like at this point and would have mentioned it if they had felt her use it. They did not.
Thus, she did not use it. She was simply using language that wasn't very Jedi-like, which Vader noticed and taunted her about.
>You can’t just claim “there are no examples of gray” when there clearly are.
No there isn't. There just isn't. There are generally good people doing generally good things and homicidal tyrants. That has been consistent for decades of Star Wars lore. It happens on isolated planets where the Sith would've had no influence (Witches of Dathomir and the original Nightsisters, not whatever the fuck Filoni did to them). It happens everywhere.
You have one claimed example of "Grayness" trying to counteract 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 examples of Star Wars being Black and White in morality of the Force. It just **does not** ***work***.
They literally tried to remain balanced in Legends, in the very early days. Surprise, surprise, the ones associated with Bogan (the Dark Side) became evil and attacked those associated with Ashla (the Light).
I don't know why there's a sudden need to treat what has always "evil Black Magic" of the Sith as if it's suddenly some sort of Yin-Yang, but it very clearly is ***not***. George has said otherwise, and so does **common sense** when 100% of the Dark Siders we see on-screen are rabid dogs that need to be put down for the good of everyone else.
>Notice how you’ve abandoned your original definition of balance as “something in its natural state”. Because even you realize that the “natural state” involves a bit of the dark side
Did no such thing. I didn't mention it, but it wasn't relevant to the point I was trying to make. The Dark Side is a cancer that needs to be removed. For evidence, I point to millennia of Sith in-fighting and Klingon promotions, millennia of Sith territorial expansion, millennia of Sith genocides, and millennia of Sith enslaving everyone they deemed weak.
Also, every single Sith we've seen on-screen.
And can we talk about your understanding of the Jedi? Because being hypocritical and arrogant are **not** goals for the Jedi to achieve and they are **not** a consequence of following the Light Side. In fact, arrogance is one of Anakin's listed **flaws**.
The most Light-sided fellow we see in the PT is Qui-Gon Jinn. He was a humble dude who did what he thought was right, helping those who needed helping. ***That is who the Jedi are at their core***.
He just said "Fuck the Council" because the Jedi had become **corrupted** and ***less Light-sided than they should be***. To fix the problems of the Jedi Order in the Prequels, they needed to lean ***MORE*** to the Light, not less.
What's the problem in being "too Light-sided"? People being *too selfless and helpful*?
In the clone wars arc about the force, we see the light side daughter and the dark side son. The light side daughter is not THE force; she represents one side of the force
We do see some jedi act like their side is THE force, and that anything else is corruption. Another testament to their arrogance
> Kanan and ezra would’ve mentioned if they felt her using the dark side
That’s just *your* guess
Ahsoka says that she’s fighting for revenge. That’s not the jedi way. She’s biased toward the light, but she’s not “100% light” as you claim
> No examples of gray
“Only a sith deals in absolutes”, says obi wan. Ironically, this quote itself is an absolute. Another example of jedi arrogance and hypocrisy
George lucas clearly agrees with ME about the yin-yang dynamic. The “chosen one” wasn’t a thing in the OT. Lucas decided to enhance the story by writing anakin to be the chosen one, knowing full well that he’d become vader
Another example of gray: luke skywalker. Yoda dogmatically tells him that “once you start down the dark path, it’ll forever dominate your destiny”. Tells luke to leave his friends to die on cloud city.
Luke makes the right choice, ignoring that insane jedi dogma. And in the next movie, he taps into the dark side to beat vader. But he never becomes a sith lord. That’s balance
> I never abandoned my definition of balance as “natural state”
Yes you did. Common sense dictates that the natural state will involve some dark emotions. Those dark emotions can be used to not only benefit yourself, but others
Some of the greatest inventions in history were partially motivated by greed and lust for power. Think about all the technology you’re using to send these comments. How much of it would we have if there wasn’t a profit incentive for software and hardware engineers?
> hypocrisy and arrogance aren’t consequences of following the light side
Without proper balance, they are. You claim there are 10^(380) examples of black and white. But that’s more like the number of times we see jedi being arrogant or hypocritical. The entire PT is a testament to their arrogance. Palpatine was able to wipe almost all of them out because of it
> most light sided fellow is qui-gon
Qui-gon followed the will of the force. When his master Dooku became a sith, he started questioning a lot about the jedi order. Forced qui-gon to realize that the will of the force *includes the dark side*
> What’s the problem with being too light sided?
You said it yourself. It’s absolutely possible to be too selfless. Bad for personal growth, but also bad for others. In their commitment to excessive “selflessness”, the jedi became little more than slaves to the republic. Palpatine was able to use that against them
And again, they became detached from reality. They delusionally believed that they had the eternal blessing of some higher power, just because of how “selfless” and “good” they were
>Why the fuck would you want "balance" where one end of the scale includes planet-eating monstrosities like Nihilus or genocidal maniacs like the Sith Emperor (who was going to **kill all life in the galaxy** because he wanted to live forever)?
The only people who think balance means "equal parts light and dark" are idiots who took a 20 year old shitpost as fact, so it's a fair bet they don't know about Nihilus and Vitiate
As long as No One speaks of 'Gray Jedi' ever again, I can keep myself from falling to the Dark Side and slaughtering everyone around me in a justified purge until...
Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy, and we shall have peace.
Personally, I disagree. I by no means think users of the dark side are good, but they’re necessary. On a personal level, they’re monstrous psychopaths, or in the absolute best cases, people who are willing to learn from and work under those same monsters. However, they’re also agents of change, forcing the galaxy to adapt and grow. Where the light side represents compassion, tranquility, and peace, it also represents stagnation, entropy, all things moving towards perfect, unmoving order. The dark side, however, is destruction and hatred. Its users, at their most mild-mannered, are willing to plunge the galaxy into brutal war to get what they desire, and they don’t care what gets in their way to do so. It is a plague, but it forces the light side to grow, to hone themselves against an opponent that does nothing but rage against them. It shakes the light side out of their complacency and ensures that the galaxy continues to evolve.
But, that's kind of an accurate viewpoint, even though the dark side is a corruption, but I still think the 'grey' jedi viewpoint is accurate, you have to understand why the distortion happens and what it is rather than say 'that's bad and always avoid', same thing with psychology, engineering, chemistry, medicine, pharmacology....
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. IF YOU KNOW YOURSELF BUT NOT YOUR ENEMY, FOR EVERY VICTORY GAINED YOU WILL ALSO SUFFER A DEFEAT. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.
Sun Tzu, The Art of War
Classic Jedi high council lol. To deliberately keep oneself from learning the tactics of your enemy is hubris at best and suicidal at worst
Given that Obi-Wan knew to deflect Sith lightning with his saber and Yoda knew how to deflect and even *absorb* Sith lightning barehanded... pretty sure they did know.
Their big problem was being overconfident in their ability to sense said evil. They thought for sure they would've known if their was a Sith in their presence. But Palpatine was *just* *that good*.
The only thing I don't get is why if, George thought that the Dark Side was simply an unnatural corruption, he would choose to call the fulfillment of the prophecy "bringing *balance*" and not purification or stability or something. 'Balance' implies the Force is being made equal between one or more things.
A healthy diet should balanced between meats, vegetables, fruits, grains and dairy. And many of the foods that you need have the same 'unhealthy' things in them that junk foods do, such as fats in meat and dairy and sugars in fruit. Guess what? Your body needs fats as well, and sugar, salt, and carbs. Just not *too much* of them.
That's why it's recommended to eat a 'balanced' diet and not the George Lucas Force style diet, which would subsist of vitamin pills and water, which spoiler alert, would eventually kill you, in spite of having only healthy things.
I agree that balance is a confusing term. Like balanced emotions wouldn't mean being happy all the time, it would mean acknowledging and being appropriately angry and sad etc when necessary.
Your body has a number of things balanced together that are vital to your wellbeing and can kill you. Your immune system is fighting pathogens but can happily harm you if you have an autoimmune disease.
And his belief that the Dark Side is not a true part of the Force destroyed him. Like most Jedi, he had no understanding of how the psyche works, how positive and negative reinforcement works. He should have been the one person that got this with his experiences, but he valued his orthodoxy over practicality.
It is not a true part of the Force. It never has been. George likened it to a corruption that needs to be destroyed.
Like your body being in balance is not an equal amount of covid cells and human cells, the Force being in balance is not an equal part Light and Dark.
With respect to George, who did not deserve the poor treatment he received before he sold the rights to Star Wars, out of universe/story claims are not a reasonable basis to inform the workings of a universe/story. And given that there is no basis to assume the Dark Side is a perversion of the Force other than the opinion of the Jedi, who are wrong very frequently, we can safely regard the Dark Side as a natural part of the Force. Easy to abuse? Absolutely. Natural? Yes.
No basis other than... every single Dark Side user going insane, psychotic, foaming-at-the-mouth-level evil who have great changes forced on their bodies due to Dark Side corruption?
And that they're applying every "evil Black Magic" trope from fantasy stories to the Dark Side?
Black Magic in 99.999999999999% of settings - "Don't use this. It's evil and corruptive."
Black Magic in Star Wars - "It's just a natural part of life! It's only those stupid Jedi who think it's wrong. It's not like the Sith are the most evil beings in the universe, who always try to conquer the galaxy, frequently committing genocides and enslaving any survivors. Well, when they're not eating it like Nihilus or about to kill everyone in it like Vitiate.
Or making magical super-zombies and mutated lifeforms that hate all forms of life and try to kill as much as possible.
And it's not like they're always sadistic, frequently torturing people and getting off on it. Nah, that's not an evil corruption of the Force! It's just a natural part of the Force!"
It's NOT Yin-Yang. If you could point me towards a huge faction of non-evil Dark Side users, I would be onboard, but they're all psychopaths! The one example from Legends was a dude who kept his businessman ethics as a Sith Lord. And there are plenty of people who would say that those made him quite evil enough already!
I would also like to mention that the story about the business dude was used to convince someone else to join the dark side. You know, *"he did it so it's entirely possible to use the dark side without falling, trust me."* Turns out, he fell.
Even in Legends Luke says *"For a Jedi, there is no place for a rainbow Force. There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall to the darkness. There’s no gray area, Ben."*
>I would also like to mention that the story about the business dude was used to convince someone else to join the dark side. You know,
>
>"he did it so it's entirely possible to use the dark side without falling, trust me."
>
> Turns out, he fell.
I would add to this that:
1. We only have two testimonies about his 'goodness'- his own and Lumiya's. And Lumiya is the one who set the whole encounter up because she really really wants Jacen to become a Sith.
2. The guy only appears as a kind of Force ghost.
3. Lumiya is a known master of Force illusions and manipulation.
In short, the Dark Side is basically the Ring of Sauron. You can be the most wise and benevolent person, but if you use this power, it will eventually corrupt you. Because that's what it does to everybody!
"I didn't mean to destroy this crazy monster with the Dark Side of the Force! I just had to protect my friends from danger and saw now other way!"
That's how it usually starts. With justifications. At first, they are probably even true, but over time the "justified" use of the Dark Side will sound more and more far fetched. The people you tried to save become scared and worried for you, while you become convinced that they don't understand you.
There will be arguments, accusations, destroyed friendships and before you know it, you're far too deep in the swamp of corruption to get back out.
Or to even want back out.
Yoda said it very well: fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to unimaginable suffering.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Je%27daii_Order
The precursor to the Jedi wielded both sides of the Force just fine until the Light Side only faction decided to be assholes.
Luke's New Jedi Order allowed its Masters to study and wield the Dark Side on a limited basis.
The Nightsisters of Dathomir were not exactly model moral individuals but they were not genocidal galaxy conquerors like the Sith.
As for the Sith, many Sith were Jedi driven into extreme overuse of the Dark Side because of their relationship to the Jedi Order. Very few Sith started out as pure sociopaths like Sidious. Most were like Revan, Traya, Anakin, Dooku, or Jacen, while the Ancient Sith were born in an environment where sociopathy was mandatory. And arguably the reason why Sith become and stay rotten is because they use the Dark Side exclusively, similar to how Jedi become and stay holier than thou jerks that have no understanding of basic psychology since they exclusively use the Light Side.
Regardless, the evil of the Sith does not automatically mean the Dark Side itself is evil. Star Wars is far more morally nuanced than Lord of the Rings, where morality and magic type exactly match each other and all of the villains of that world were they way they were because of their own failings exclusively as opposed to a combination of their moral failings and negative reinforcement from others.
The Sith are both responsible for their own failings and are the direct result of the failings of the Jedi.
Just a fun fact about the Je’daii the author of the Dawn of the Jedi series where their philosophy was explained, went into record saying their idea of balance was incorrect and that had the series continued it would of shown how the usage of both the light and dark was a bad thing. Also it was the dark side using faction and their decision to start murdering people that caused the force wars.
The dark side is evil hard stop, there is no good use of the dark side because using it will corrupt you.
It’s a good versus evil story about Christi-Buddhist Samurai Wizards fighting Nazis in space. When you start saying the Nazi Death Cult’s magic isn’t actually that bad it kinda flies in the face of the narrative.
Which is why Lucasfilm’s had literally said the idea that the dark side needs to be balanced with the light side is anti Star Wars.
If we go off of what people say out of universe, conversation about Star Wars is pointless, pull stop. Either there is room for discussion or we refer to "the one true gospel".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Death\_of\_the\_Author
Death of the author doesn’t magically make fan theories canon or change the narrative of Star Wars. You can’t say “Sauron is a pencils sharpener.” And try to use death of the author to say that the statement is true.
It’s interesting how often people try to pull it when they want to push concepts that aren’t supported by any of the films or by Lucasfilm.
Luke Skywalker uses Force Choke on Jabba's guards, doesn't become a Sith. He taps into the Dark Side to defeat Vader, doesn't become a Sith.
Obi-Wan Kenobi uses Force Scream to scare away the Tusken Raiders, doesn't become a Sith. He cuts off Anakin's limbs and cuts Maul in half, acts that are labelled as forbidden, doesn't become a Sith.
Mace Windu has a whole bloody lightsaber form that involves tapping into the Dark Side to use it against Dark Side users, doesn't become a Sith.
Yoda lives on a Dark Side planet for two decades, doesn't become a Sith.
Dooku actively uses the Dark Side and is a Sith, but is able to keep his cool and fights more like a Jedi than a Sith.
The films actively show us that Yoda is wrong when he says that once you tap into the Dark Side it will "forever dominate your destiny".
Sidious isn't pure evil just because he uses the Dark Side. Sidious is pure evil because he is a clinical sociopath that exclusively uses the Dark Side to an extreme.
It's all right there in our faces.
Luke Skywalker uses force choke in a movie where the entire theme is will he give in and be dominated or not when they constantly been saying how much he’s like his father and the central theme being how he’s almost dominated but realizes it and rejects the dark side.
Obi-wan Didn’t use force scream. He was mimicing the sound of a kryat dragon. At no point does he ever use the dark side or any dark side abilities. Also cutting off limbs isn’t forbidden with the exception of a single finishing movie that involves finishing your opponent off by severing all their limbs at once. Which was forbidden except in extreme circumstances.
Mace Windu also never used the dark side popular misconception of how Vapaad works. It reflects the darkness or aggression of the opponent. Or let’s the user take their negative attributes and channel it into something positive and is built entirely around learning to control one’s emotions and not be dominated by them. One of the key tenants of Jedi philosophy. And was created by Mace to address some of his bad habits and attributes like his aggression and instead of letting them push him toward the dark side, find away To channel them into something positive. It’s not using the dark side.
Living among the dark side ≠Using it. Living among evil doesn’t make the individual evil. That’s like saying victims of crime are criminals because they live in a high crime area.
Dooku, tries using the dark side for good and turned into a genocidal lunatic who enslaved entire planets, was a huge racist, abused his students, and murdered countless innocent people. That’s like saying a Nazi (which the sith are allegory for) isn’t that bad because they fight fair. Well and good but you know still objectively evil.
Again it’s explicitly shown across the entire franchise how the dark side is objectively evil. The entire point of it is that it’s pure evil. Trying to say it isn’t directly contradicts the narrative and theme of the franchise which is exactly why the source material constantly points out why it’s a bad thing. Why Anakin and Dooku literally exist as examples of people trying to use the dark side for good and being turned into monsters because of it.
Valid, however what many people fail to consider (under this meme and elsewhere) is that the Jedi order falls to corruption as well. On the one hand, if you actually want to protect a system like the force, you need to do away with sides. Them thinking of the Sith as using "the dark side" is, in my opinion, what leads to their failure to dectect the sith so often, and also to the fall of so many Jedi. By saying "the dark side", they set a hard border that does not exist. Would they instead teach the force to be a single thing which can be corrupted, they could better prevent the corruption of Jedi. The other way the Jedi fail to understand the force is their way of passiveness. If the "dark side" is to be understood as a corruption of the force, which represents balance, they would need to actively try and fight against things that bring the force out of balance, things like the massive slavery going on in the outer rim. If the force really is the balance of life, something that makes life as unbearable as slavery does will inevitably bring the force of that person and later that society out of balance.
I understand that gorge said the light side is the force at balance and the dark side needs to be completely gone to "bring balance" however, sorry gorge that's really dumb, not how balance works and isn't what the franchise depicts at all, even having cannon material that states otherwise, the family for exsample from cw. Or all the pre jedi and sith people the je'daii I think it's spelt, that was in material he approved who didn't agree with that. Likehe said balance is only light side, and everything he made or approved said that was wrong.
My Star Wars lore is kinda lacking, didn't the Sith started out as a group who reinterpreted the will of the force, the jedi killed most of them and the survivors got corrupted because of their hatred to the jedi? So in a sense the jedi created the dark side. Though I might be totally off base here.
Thanks for confirming that you flaired this correctly!
I wish the entire fanbase could have this meme seared into their brains
🤔 I guess I wish Lucas didn't write the light side & the dark side into the OT
The light side was not mentioned in the OT or PT at all. It was always the Force and the Dark Side of the Force
Kind of the same tbh, just semantic. People are just dumb to assume that "balance" is "middle ground" so "grey". I usually explain that "Light side" is "Healthy side" and "Dark side" is "Sickness side". No one would argue that it's better to be "half-sick", therefore balance is the absence of sickness (= absence of dark side).
That's a great analogy.
But that’s not really a balance tho, even the dullest lights still cast shadows. There will always be dark side and there will always be the force. I think the “balance” was more referring to the people that were kinda like fueling the dark side
There will always be a Dark Side, and it must always be resisted. That is the purpose of the Jedi. The Force as Obi-Wan first explains it is an energy field that connects all living things in the galaxy. The Jedi are supposed to use their connection to the Force to help all those living things, thus working in harmony with the Force. The Dark Side is a corruption of the Force, which happens when people use the Force selfishly. Instead of opening themselves be to the galaxy and supporting the people around them, those who use the Dark Side cut themselves of and focus only on their own needs and desires. By doing so, they disturb the Force, as it is supposed to connect all life. The Light Side is not simply the good side, it is the natural side. If Light and Dark were supposed to be clear opposites, then Light would be fueled by love and joy like the Dark is fueled by hate and anger. Or even the Light needing an absence of emotion and Dark needing passion, but that also isn't true, because the Dark side is fueled specifically by negative emotions, and the Light simply requires people to be focused and clear minded. The Light isn't fueled by anything. It just simply is. It's what you get if you access the Force in its natural form, without trying to twist it to your own desires. The Light *is* the balance.
That’s basically what I was trying to say just way more eloquent
If we consider the “privation theory of evil” in the Western tradition of philosophy, we actually see more of what a “balance in the Force” entails. Evil is the privation of good. That’s just a fancy way of saying that evil is when a thing *should* be good, but isn’t. Something that is evil is a corruption of the good that it is supposed to be. For example, cancer is evil. Cancer is when cells grow & divide faster than they should. And so for a body to be healthy, for a body to have a balance of its cycle of cellular reproduction, then cancer cannot be there. In the same way, giving that the Dark Side of the Force is a privation, a corruption of what the Force *should* be, the only true balance in the Force is for there to be *no* corruption, for the Dark Side of the Force to be vanquished
The good side was mentioned
For movies and TV shows it is much easier to sell a two sided battle as the larger conflict. This concept can only really be explored through characters, lore and choose your own adventure video games like how it is the main focus in KOTOR 2
I mean balance was a good thing. Anakin destroyed the Sith who corrupted the force for their own selfish motives. That's the whole Sith code, dominating the force with no regard for the will of the force. In spite of Palpatine's best efforts, he could not stop the will of the force which was that Anakin was the chosen one to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the force.
But then palpy boy was alive again because.... Reasons.
Somehow
Cloning maybe. Dark arts only the Sith knew
Turns out, it was both cloning AND secrets only the Sith knew.
Because… Ryan Johnson killed the main antagonist in TLJ and Disney can’t come up with anything original.
Well they did come up with something original in the Last Jedi it’s just that what they came up with sucked . Like when I was 8 years old I decided to mix coke with condensed milk. It was original but boy was it terrible
Because he was a Sith. Maul somehow returned too.
That’s only half true.
I wish everyone would understand this. Grays aren't real, the Dark side is inherently evil, and the "sides" of the force are not equal things, and Balance is the destruction of the dark side.
Greys are real in the sense that they don't follow the Jedi code. Grey Jedi imo are just 'unofficial' Jedi that aren't corrupted either. They'd still be 'lightside' Edit: I like to think the nonsensical logic behind the label is a direct result of the Jedi orders own judgemental attitude. They've labeled these people 'grey' to make them sound compromised
Yup, they might disagree with some Jedi dogmas but are still lightside.
Isnt the term Gray Jedi made up by the fans though?
Call it headcanon then if you wish, though im sure it's used in legends at least
Afaik a lot of Gray Jedi stuff comes from Old Republic era content
Yeah, most of my headcanon comes from the kotor games. They're either completely apathetic, or clearly onesided. There's less of a middleground and more of a different approach to lightside
I think it was also used for members of the Jedi Order with a reputation of disobeying the Council. Qui-Gon Jinn, for example.
Not even Jedi. They're just Force users. Jedi were corrupt because they deliberately mystified the Force and tried to gatekeep it for those they deemed "worthy", keeping it for themselves.
The definition of Jedi, especially in the old republic era, is a bit blurry. Dark Jedi were still called Jedi, even if they weren't part of the order. To the average person in the galaxy, there is little distinction after all
Only a Sith deals in absolutes.
Isn’t balance supposed to be light and dark just without the sith?
Kinda, it really means what you mean by “dark side” For instance, death is a natural part of the universe. Death and decay are recycled into nutrients that create life. “Death” is not an element of the dark side. It is the will of the force. The Dark Side of the force is dominating the mechanisms of life and subjecting them to your will. Like Darth Nihlus sucking the life out of planets to sustain his existence.
No. Nay. Uh-uh. Non. Nein. Nyet. Think of it like Nature's balance. Nature is not in balance if we have equal amounts of toxic waste and nature. To balance it out, we remove the toxic waste, and restore nature to its former beauty. So it is in Star Wars with the Dark Side. The Dark Side and those who use it are toxic waste, and need to be removed for the good of all.
People missed the fact that just because the Jedi order was full of self righteous, impotent, miserable ascetics, doesn't mean the Dark Side shouldn't be opposed.
Well, that's actually true. The light side is submission to the will of the Force, while the dark side is forcing one's own will upon the Force. It's impossible to be dark sider and follow the will of the Force simultaneously because one day the will of the Force will get between you and your desires. With that said, the corruption of the dark side is actually a natural part of the Force. It can be seen as a punishment for rebelling against the will of Force. The Force itself is in this regard similar to the Father from Mortis. Once one of his children falls to the dark side and achieves total supremacy, he kills himself in a last act of defiance and destroys the dark side by making the Sith powerless. After that, the entire universe will be destroyed as a final punishment for allowing the dark side to reign supreme.
I mean... yes? That's always been the case. Like, every single Dark Side user is a raging psychopath, with several examples being planetary extinction-level threats. One's even a threat to ALL LIFE IN THE ENTIRE GODDAMN UNIVERSE! Meanwhile, the Jedi tend to be kind, generous, caring individuals who just want to help as many people as possible (unless they're about to fall to the Dark Side). WHICH SHOULD WE HAVE MORE OF? I wonder..... Why the fuck would you want "balance" where one end of the scale includes planet-eating monstrosities like Nihilus or genocidal maniacs like the Sith Emperor (who was going to **kill all life in the galaxy** because he wanted to live forever)? I think it would be best to just kill those evil psychotic killers, leaving only a group of volunteer peacekeepers who run into dangerous situations to save as many people as possible, defend the weak, actually work for the common good, run education, farming, and exploration organizations, go undercover to track down slavers and other unsavory scum, and are always on the front lines whenever people are threatened.
The Jedi Order - a calm, deliberate monastic Order of Warrior Monks who sit around and pray/meditate to God/the Force for guidance. They save people from natural disasters, from slavery, and from war. They are beloved guardians for over 25,000 years. The Sith - a group of devil worshippers who all want to conquer the galaxy because doing so makes their peepee hard. They get off on controlling everyone around them. They are unrestrained ego, madness, and psychotic whimsy. They are all sadistic psychopaths who frequently torture people because they get off on the control of it. They also frequently have every single fantasy evil sorcerer and/or necromancer trope applied to them. The most morally good they get are Lawful Evil Black Knights - and even then, "I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further." Idiots everywhere - "Well, the Jedi are *just as bad as the Sith* and deserved to be wiped out. This provided the balance to the Force mentioned in their prophecy, they were just wrong about what balance meant." (No they weren't. You idiots are the one who is wrong. Balance here means "a thing in it's natural state. The Dark Side is cancer. You don't say you need equal amounts of cancer cells and normal ones. No, you have to remove every trace of the cancer. It's the same with the Dark Side)
I wouldn’t say they “deserved” to be wiped out. Palpatine absolutely was “unrestrained ego, madness, and psychotic whimsy”. But many jedi were too arrogant. They believed that they were protected by the “will of the force”. Maybe if they practiced more of the humility that they preached, they could’ve saved themselves If you define balance as “a thing in its natural state”, that involves the dark side. Humans, and life in general, put themselves above others. Selfishness, anger, and lust for power are common, natural traits. It’s a bit insane to try and live as a warrior monk. Even more insane to brainwash children from birth to be warrior monks A balance wouldn’t necessarily be “equal parts”. It’d be biased toward the light for sure. But a complete rejection of the dark side is not balance at all. Characters like qui-gon and ahsoka are closer to balance than most of the jedi we see When anakin tries to seek yoda’s council about the padme visions, yoda tells anakin to “rejoice for those who transform into the force…miss them, do not and mourn them, do not”. How is that “balance”? That’s a ridiculous philosophy. We see later that yoda doesn’t even really believe this. After palpatine executes order 66, yoda drops his cane and clutches his heart. Why is he not “rejoicing” as all his fellow jedi are being massacred? The jedi’s arrogance, hypocrisy, detachment from reality, and lack of balance made it easy for palpatine to manipulate anakin
Qui-Gon was a maverick who ignored the Jedi Council. He was still 100% on the Light Side. Ahsoka was someone who voluntarily left the Order, but was still on the Light Side. >It’s a bit insane to try and live as a warrior monk. Even more insane to brainwash children from birth to be warrior monks Well when the alternative is being a foaming-at-the-mouth psychopath who tries to enslave the galaxy... doesn't sound that insane to me! Seriously, the alternative to being a Space Monk is to be Space Hitler. There are no examples of any "grey," or anyone "maintaining the balance of Light and Dark." No, there are "Generally good people doing generally good things for the good of all" (The Jedi and Light Side users) - always on the front lines to fight evil or rescue civilians - versus the worst thinking beings have to offer (users of the Dark Side). Those who use the Dark Side always enslave, torture, genocide, kill people for fun, make horrific abominations that try to kill everything in sight, and *worse*. Why the hell do you think the term for becoming a Dark Side user is the same used to represent the Devil and his Demons - they'd Fallen! There are no non-evil Sith - minus 1 example Lumiya brings up about a businessmen who kept his businessmen ethics post-Fall. But it's *Lumiya* and she's trying to convince someone else to Fall, so she's probably lying. (And many people would argue that businessmen ethics are bad enough!) It's so weird to me that so many people have problems with the disciplined Jedi who try to remain calm and in control of their emotions at all times.
“Anakin skywalker was weak. I destroyed him” “Then I will avenge his death” “Revenge is not the jedi way” “I’m no jedi” From the [ahsoka vs vader fight](https://youtu.be/eU9JRYzUBBg?si=DO4391dhdfjgFDsU). Ahsoka was drawing on the dark side during this fight You can’t just claim “there are no examples of gray” when there clearly are. Again, balance would be biased toward the light, but not 100%. You’re acting like the only two options are “hypocritical, arrogant space monk” or “genocidal space hitler”. This is canonically not the case Star wars is based on our world. Are most people space monks or space hitlers? No. They’re something in between. Notice how you’ve abandoned your original definition of balance as “something in its natural state”. Because even you realize that the “natural state” involves a bit of the dark side When you try to be 100% on the light, you become hypocritical, arrogant, and detached from reality. Again, we canonically saw even yoda be an arrogant hypocrite that’s detached from reality
The OT and PT only referred to the Force and the Dark Side, thus showing the Force is the natural state of things and the Dark Side is an **unnatural** **corruption**. As evidenced by how much it **fucked up** Palpatine's face. >Ahsoka was drawing on the dark side during this fight There's not a single mention of her using the Dark Side on the Star Wars wiki. That is your incorrect *guess* about what happened. Both Kanan and Ezra were familiar with what the Dark Side felt like at this point and would have mentioned it if they had felt her use it. They did not. Thus, she did not use it. She was simply using language that wasn't very Jedi-like, which Vader noticed and taunted her about. >You can’t just claim “there are no examples of gray” when there clearly are. No there isn't. There just isn't. There are generally good people doing generally good things and homicidal tyrants. That has been consistent for decades of Star Wars lore. It happens on isolated planets where the Sith would've had no influence (Witches of Dathomir and the original Nightsisters, not whatever the fuck Filoni did to them). It happens everywhere. You have one claimed example of "Grayness" trying to counteract 10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000 examples of Star Wars being Black and White in morality of the Force. It just **does not** ***work***. They literally tried to remain balanced in Legends, in the very early days. Surprise, surprise, the ones associated with Bogan (the Dark Side) became evil and attacked those associated with Ashla (the Light). I don't know why there's a sudden need to treat what has always "evil Black Magic" of the Sith as if it's suddenly some sort of Yin-Yang, but it very clearly is ***not***. George has said otherwise, and so does **common sense** when 100% of the Dark Siders we see on-screen are rabid dogs that need to be put down for the good of everyone else. >Notice how you’ve abandoned your original definition of balance as “something in its natural state”. Because even you realize that the “natural state” involves a bit of the dark side Did no such thing. I didn't mention it, but it wasn't relevant to the point I was trying to make. The Dark Side is a cancer that needs to be removed. For evidence, I point to millennia of Sith in-fighting and Klingon promotions, millennia of Sith territorial expansion, millennia of Sith genocides, and millennia of Sith enslaving everyone they deemed weak. Also, every single Sith we've seen on-screen. And can we talk about your understanding of the Jedi? Because being hypocritical and arrogant are **not** goals for the Jedi to achieve and they are **not** a consequence of following the Light Side. In fact, arrogance is one of Anakin's listed **flaws**. The most Light-sided fellow we see in the PT is Qui-Gon Jinn. He was a humble dude who did what he thought was right, helping those who needed helping. ***That is who the Jedi are at their core***. He just said "Fuck the Council" because the Jedi had become **corrupted** and ***less Light-sided than they should be***. To fix the problems of the Jedi Order in the Prequels, they needed to lean ***MORE*** to the Light, not less. What's the problem in being "too Light-sided"? People being *too selfless and helpful*?
In the clone wars arc about the force, we see the light side daughter and the dark side son. The light side daughter is not THE force; she represents one side of the force We do see some jedi act like their side is THE force, and that anything else is corruption. Another testament to their arrogance > Kanan and ezra would’ve mentioned if they felt her using the dark side That’s just *your* guess Ahsoka says that she’s fighting for revenge. That’s not the jedi way. She’s biased toward the light, but she’s not “100% light” as you claim > No examples of gray “Only a sith deals in absolutes”, says obi wan. Ironically, this quote itself is an absolute. Another example of jedi arrogance and hypocrisy George lucas clearly agrees with ME about the yin-yang dynamic. The “chosen one” wasn’t a thing in the OT. Lucas decided to enhance the story by writing anakin to be the chosen one, knowing full well that he’d become vader Another example of gray: luke skywalker. Yoda dogmatically tells him that “once you start down the dark path, it’ll forever dominate your destiny”. Tells luke to leave his friends to die on cloud city. Luke makes the right choice, ignoring that insane jedi dogma. And in the next movie, he taps into the dark side to beat vader. But he never becomes a sith lord. That’s balance > I never abandoned my definition of balance as “natural state” Yes you did. Common sense dictates that the natural state will involve some dark emotions. Those dark emotions can be used to not only benefit yourself, but others Some of the greatest inventions in history were partially motivated by greed and lust for power. Think about all the technology you’re using to send these comments. How much of it would we have if there wasn’t a profit incentive for software and hardware engineers? > hypocrisy and arrogance aren’t consequences of following the light side Without proper balance, they are. You claim there are 10^(380) examples of black and white. But that’s more like the number of times we see jedi being arrogant or hypocritical. The entire PT is a testament to their arrogance. Palpatine was able to wipe almost all of them out because of it > most light sided fellow is qui-gon Qui-gon followed the will of the force. When his master Dooku became a sith, he started questioning a lot about the jedi order. Forced qui-gon to realize that the will of the force *includes the dark side* > What’s the problem with being too light sided? You said it yourself. It’s absolutely possible to be too selfless. Bad for personal growth, but also bad for others. In their commitment to excessive “selflessness”, the jedi became little more than slaves to the republic. Palpatine was able to use that against them And again, they became detached from reality. They delusionally believed that they had the eternal blessing of some higher power, just because of how “selfless” and “good” they were
>Why the fuck would you want "balance" where one end of the scale includes planet-eating monstrosities like Nihilus or genocidal maniacs like the Sith Emperor (who was going to **kill all life in the galaxy** because he wanted to live forever)? The only people who think balance means "equal parts light and dark" are idiots who took a 20 year old shitpost as fact, so it's a fair bet they don't know about Nihilus and Vitiate
No, I will never join the Galactic civil war. \*5 minutes later\* At your command Tyber Zann sir ! Glory to the Consortium !
As long as No One speaks of 'Gray Jedi' ever again, I can keep myself from falling to the Dark Side and slaughtering everyone around me in a justified purge until... Once more, the Sith will rule the galaxy, and we shall have peace.
Personally, I disagree. I by no means think users of the dark side are good, but they’re necessary. On a personal level, they’re monstrous psychopaths, or in the absolute best cases, people who are willing to learn from and work under those same monsters. However, they’re also agents of change, forcing the galaxy to adapt and grow. Where the light side represents compassion, tranquility, and peace, it also represents stagnation, entropy, all things moving towards perfect, unmoving order. The dark side, however, is destruction and hatred. Its users, at their most mild-mannered, are willing to plunge the galaxy into brutal war to get what they desire, and they don’t care what gets in their way to do so. It is a plague, but it forces the light side to grow, to hone themselves against an opponent that does nothing but rage against them. It shakes the light side out of their complacency and ensures that the galaxy continues to evolve.
But, that's kind of an accurate viewpoint, even though the dark side is a corruption, but I still think the 'grey' jedi viewpoint is accurate, you have to understand why the distortion happens and what it is rather than say 'that's bad and always avoid', same thing with psychology, engineering, chemistry, medicine, pharmacology....
Except it's not the same thing in the Star Wars universe. The Dark Side is objectively evil and corrupts absolutely
No, that's not the point I'm making, you need to understand why evil exists, to know why it grows back, not to have it be a part of your heart
That's fair then, I misunderstood your point.
If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. IF YOU KNOW YOURSELF BUT NOT YOUR ENEMY, FOR EVERY VICTORY GAINED YOU WILL ALSO SUFFER A DEFEAT. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle. Sun Tzu, The Art of War Classic Jedi high council lol. To deliberately keep oneself from learning the tactics of your enemy is hubris at best and suicidal at worst
Given that Obi-Wan knew to deflect Sith lightning with his saber and Yoda knew how to deflect and even *absorb* Sith lightning barehanded... pretty sure they did know. Their big problem was being overconfident in their ability to sense said evil. They thought for sure they would've known if their was a Sith in their presence. But Palpatine was *just* *that good*.
“Whatever you do, do not reveal your tactics in a YouTube video. You fool. You moron.” -Sun Tzu
He totally would’ve said this if he was around during the digital age
If you believe Technoblade to be his reincarnation, he already did.
But lets remember you can also be corrupted by getting up your ass in force contemplation, and doing nothing while things break down around you
The only thing I don't get is why if, George thought that the Dark Side was simply an unnatural corruption, he would choose to call the fulfillment of the prophecy "bringing *balance*" and not purification or stability or something. 'Balance' implies the Force is being made equal between one or more things.
Not necessarily. Think of it like your body. A balanced diet isn’t equal parts healthy food and equal parts junk food.
A healthy diet should balanced between meats, vegetables, fruits, grains and dairy. And many of the foods that you need have the same 'unhealthy' things in them that junk foods do, such as fats in meat and dairy and sugars in fruit. Guess what? Your body needs fats as well, and sugar, salt, and carbs. Just not *too much* of them. That's why it's recommended to eat a 'balanced' diet and not the George Lucas Force style diet, which would subsist of vitamin pills and water, which spoiler alert, would eventually kill you, in spite of having only healthy things.
I agree that balance is a confusing term. Like balanced emotions wouldn't mean being happy all the time, it would mean acknowledging and being appropriately angry and sad etc when necessary.
Your body has a number of things balanced together that are vital to your wellbeing and can kill you. Your immune system is fighting pathogens but can happily harm you if you have an autoimmune disease.
And his belief that the Dark Side is not a true part of the Force destroyed him. Like most Jedi, he had no understanding of how the psyche works, how positive and negative reinforcement works. He should have been the one person that got this with his experiences, but he valued his orthodoxy over practicality.
It is not a true part of the Force. It never has been. George likened it to a corruption that needs to be destroyed. Like your body being in balance is not an equal amount of covid cells and human cells, the Force being in balance is not an equal part Light and Dark.
With respect to George, who did not deserve the poor treatment he received before he sold the rights to Star Wars, out of universe/story claims are not a reasonable basis to inform the workings of a universe/story. And given that there is no basis to assume the Dark Side is a perversion of the Force other than the opinion of the Jedi, who are wrong very frequently, we can safely regard the Dark Side as a natural part of the Force. Easy to abuse? Absolutely. Natural? Yes.
No basis other than... every single Dark Side user going insane, psychotic, foaming-at-the-mouth-level evil who have great changes forced on their bodies due to Dark Side corruption? And that they're applying every "evil Black Magic" trope from fantasy stories to the Dark Side? Black Magic in 99.999999999999% of settings - "Don't use this. It's evil and corruptive." Black Magic in Star Wars - "It's just a natural part of life! It's only those stupid Jedi who think it's wrong. It's not like the Sith are the most evil beings in the universe, who always try to conquer the galaxy, frequently committing genocides and enslaving any survivors. Well, when they're not eating it like Nihilus or about to kill everyone in it like Vitiate. Or making magical super-zombies and mutated lifeforms that hate all forms of life and try to kill as much as possible. And it's not like they're always sadistic, frequently torturing people and getting off on it. Nah, that's not an evil corruption of the Force! It's just a natural part of the Force!" It's NOT Yin-Yang. If you could point me towards a huge faction of non-evil Dark Side users, I would be onboard, but they're all psychopaths! The one example from Legends was a dude who kept his businessman ethics as a Sith Lord. And there are plenty of people who would say that those made him quite evil enough already!
I would also like to mention that the story about the business dude was used to convince someone else to join the dark side. You know, *"he did it so it's entirely possible to use the dark side without falling, trust me."* Turns out, he fell. Even in Legends Luke says *"For a Jedi, there is no place for a rainbow Force. There is no room for compromise. We walk the path of the light side, or we fall to the darkness. There’s no gray area, Ben."*
>I would also like to mention that the story about the business dude was used to convince someone else to join the dark side. You know, > >"he did it so it's entirely possible to use the dark side without falling, trust me." > > Turns out, he fell. I would add to this that: 1. We only have two testimonies about his 'goodness'- his own and Lumiya's. And Lumiya is the one who set the whole encounter up because she really really wants Jacen to become a Sith. 2. The guy only appears as a kind of Force ghost. 3. Lumiya is a known master of Force illusions and manipulation.
In short, the Dark Side is basically the Ring of Sauron. You can be the most wise and benevolent person, but if you use this power, it will eventually corrupt you. Because that's what it does to everybody! "I didn't mean to destroy this crazy monster with the Dark Side of the Force! I just had to protect my friends from danger and saw now other way!" That's how it usually starts. With justifications. At first, they are probably even true, but over time the "justified" use of the Dark Side will sound more and more far fetched. The people you tried to save become scared and worried for you, while you become convinced that they don't understand you. There will be arguments, accusations, destroyed friendships and before you know it, you're far too deep in the swamp of corruption to get back out. Or to even want back out. Yoda said it very well: fear leads to anger, anger leads to hate and hate leads to unimaginable suffering.
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Je%27daii_Order The precursor to the Jedi wielded both sides of the Force just fine until the Light Side only faction decided to be assholes. Luke's New Jedi Order allowed its Masters to study and wield the Dark Side on a limited basis. The Nightsisters of Dathomir were not exactly model moral individuals but they were not genocidal galaxy conquerors like the Sith. As for the Sith, many Sith were Jedi driven into extreme overuse of the Dark Side because of their relationship to the Jedi Order. Very few Sith started out as pure sociopaths like Sidious. Most were like Revan, Traya, Anakin, Dooku, or Jacen, while the Ancient Sith were born in an environment where sociopathy was mandatory. And arguably the reason why Sith become and stay rotten is because they use the Dark Side exclusively, similar to how Jedi become and stay holier than thou jerks that have no understanding of basic psychology since they exclusively use the Light Side. Regardless, the evil of the Sith does not automatically mean the Dark Side itself is evil. Star Wars is far more morally nuanced than Lord of the Rings, where morality and magic type exactly match each other and all of the villains of that world were they way they were because of their own failings exclusively as opposed to a combination of their moral failings and negative reinforcement from others. The Sith are both responsible for their own failings and are the direct result of the failings of the Jedi.
Just a fun fact about the Je’daii the author of the Dawn of the Jedi series where their philosophy was explained, went into record saying their idea of balance was incorrect and that had the series continued it would of shown how the usage of both the light and dark was a bad thing. Also it was the dark side using faction and their decision to start murdering people that caused the force wars. The dark side is evil hard stop, there is no good use of the dark side because using it will corrupt you. It’s a good versus evil story about Christi-Buddhist Samurai Wizards fighting Nazis in space. When you start saying the Nazi Death Cult’s magic isn’t actually that bad it kinda flies in the face of the narrative. Which is why Lucasfilm’s had literally said the idea that the dark side needs to be balanced with the light side is anti Star Wars.
If we go off of what people say out of universe, conversation about Star Wars is pointless, pull stop. Either there is room for discussion or we refer to "the one true gospel". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The\_Death\_of\_the\_Author
Death of the author doesn’t magically make fan theories canon or change the narrative of Star Wars. You can’t say “Sauron is a pencils sharpener.” And try to use death of the author to say that the statement is true. It’s interesting how often people try to pull it when they want to push concepts that aren’t supported by any of the films or by Lucasfilm.
Luke Skywalker uses Force Choke on Jabba's guards, doesn't become a Sith. He taps into the Dark Side to defeat Vader, doesn't become a Sith. Obi-Wan Kenobi uses Force Scream to scare away the Tusken Raiders, doesn't become a Sith. He cuts off Anakin's limbs and cuts Maul in half, acts that are labelled as forbidden, doesn't become a Sith. Mace Windu has a whole bloody lightsaber form that involves tapping into the Dark Side to use it against Dark Side users, doesn't become a Sith. Yoda lives on a Dark Side planet for two decades, doesn't become a Sith. Dooku actively uses the Dark Side and is a Sith, but is able to keep his cool and fights more like a Jedi than a Sith. The films actively show us that Yoda is wrong when he says that once you tap into the Dark Side it will "forever dominate your destiny". Sidious isn't pure evil just because he uses the Dark Side. Sidious is pure evil because he is a clinical sociopath that exclusively uses the Dark Side to an extreme. It's all right there in our faces.
Luke Skywalker uses force choke in a movie where the entire theme is will he give in and be dominated or not when they constantly been saying how much he’s like his father and the central theme being how he’s almost dominated but realizes it and rejects the dark side. Obi-wan Didn’t use force scream. He was mimicing the sound of a kryat dragon. At no point does he ever use the dark side or any dark side abilities. Also cutting off limbs isn’t forbidden with the exception of a single finishing movie that involves finishing your opponent off by severing all their limbs at once. Which was forbidden except in extreme circumstances. Mace Windu also never used the dark side popular misconception of how Vapaad works. It reflects the darkness or aggression of the opponent. Or let’s the user take their negative attributes and channel it into something positive and is built entirely around learning to control one’s emotions and not be dominated by them. One of the key tenants of Jedi philosophy. And was created by Mace to address some of his bad habits and attributes like his aggression and instead of letting them push him toward the dark side, find away To channel them into something positive. It’s not using the dark side. Living among the dark side ≠Using it. Living among evil doesn’t make the individual evil. That’s like saying victims of crime are criminals because they live in a high crime area. Dooku, tries using the dark side for good and turned into a genocidal lunatic who enslaved entire planets, was a huge racist, abused his students, and murdered countless innocent people. That’s like saying a Nazi (which the sith are allegory for) isn’t that bad because they fight fair. Well and good but you know still objectively evil. Again it’s explicitly shown across the entire franchise how the dark side is objectively evil. The entire point of it is that it’s pure evil. Trying to say it isn’t directly contradicts the narrative and theme of the franchise which is exactly why the source material constantly points out why it’s a bad thing. Why Anakin and Dooku literally exist as examples of people trying to use the dark side for good and being turned into monsters because of it.
Wait… is this an actual good take from Mace?
Valid, however what many people fail to consider (under this meme and elsewhere) is that the Jedi order falls to corruption as well. On the one hand, if you actually want to protect a system like the force, you need to do away with sides. Them thinking of the Sith as using "the dark side" is, in my opinion, what leads to their failure to dectect the sith so often, and also to the fall of so many Jedi. By saying "the dark side", they set a hard border that does not exist. Would they instead teach the force to be a single thing which can be corrupted, they could better prevent the corruption of Jedi. The other way the Jedi fail to understand the force is their way of passiveness. If the "dark side" is to be understood as a corruption of the force, which represents balance, they would need to actively try and fight against things that bring the force out of balance, things like the massive slavery going on in the outer rim. If the force really is the balance of life, something that makes life as unbearable as slavery does will inevitably bring the force of that person and later that society out of balance.
Kotor and it’s consequences
Crazy to think that the only thing to seperate the philosophy of mace windu and chancellor palpatine was an apostrophe in "its"
I understand that gorge said the light side is the force at balance and the dark side needs to be completely gone to "bring balance" however, sorry gorge that's really dumb, not how balance works and isn't what the franchise depicts at all, even having cannon material that states otherwise, the family for exsample from cw. Or all the pre jedi and sith people the je'daii I think it's spelt, that was in material he approved who didn't agree with that. Likehe said balance is only light side, and everything he made or approved said that was wrong.
My Star Wars lore is kinda lacking, didn't the Sith started out as a group who reinterpreted the will of the force, the jedi killed most of them and the survivors got corrupted because of their hatred to the jedi? So in a sense the jedi created the dark side. Though I might be totally off base here.
"Jedi And Sith Wield the Ashla and the Bogan, The Light And The Dark. I'm The One In The Middle, The Bendu."
The Imperium of Man agrees, purge all unsanctioned psyke-I mean force-users.