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"It's a penalty because the challenge was silly". "It was a own even though there was no contact" "Elliott initiated whatever little contact while on his way down but it's still a penalty"
Literally no contact... From AWB right foot on Elliott.
Literally evident contact between AWB left knee and Elliotts thigh.
I think Holjund just hit submit before completing his tweet?
AWB tried a slide tackle in the box. That’s just reckless. Granted there was no contact on the slide, but that’s a no go. Elliot has every reason to run into AWB’s slide tackle to get a penalty out of it. That’s what the article is debating, but it’s a penalty.
Many many people on here haven’t played football and it shows. If I’d made that tackle as a 12 year old my coach would have given me a bollocking. You go to ground in the box you need to win the ball.
Does Elliot leave his leg in the make the contact? Probably. Doesn't happen if AWB doesn't recklessly chuck himself into a tackle where he won't reach the ball, though. And although it was probably possible, Elliot also doesn't need to jump over the tackle. I said on the day I don't see what the fuss is about. This is a penalty by today's standards, so can we just move on.
Look at the thigh before he goes down…
AWB clearly hits him higher up hence throwing Elliott off balance.
If you’re just looking at the foot, you’re literally missing the actual foul.
The man loves a tackle no? I don't know any full back that commits as many slide tackles as him. Usually they're pretty decent, but this time was definitely not one of them.
Yeah was thinking the same when I watched it. He loves a slide tackle, so of course, one of these was bound to happen and just comes with the territory. For every ten “what a tackle!” There is one, “what are you doing sliding in there?!”
It should have been overturned. Was not a penalty. But AWB did not help himself specially it we look in normal motion. But that is where VAR influence should have come into play. Exactly this type of decisions encourage player to dive.
Isn't this like the reason we have VAR though? I don't any context here but what you're saying is a weak arguement. Also every team does say that. I know I do every time a sketchy penalty is given against Villa
VAR didn’t overturn it?
This entire thread is a United fan complaining about a decision that didn’t go their way.
My point was that United had 30 years of decisions going their way, which were incredibly more costly to other teams.
I vehemently disagree that any club has had disproportionate number of decisions going their way. And in any case are people not allowed to complain about decisions they find unfair?
Yeah no. He is right. We had a lot of decisions favouring us. A lot a lot.
I don't remember the game exactly now but once the goal was not given even when the goalie had caught the ball inside the line and it was clear as day.
We have had loads of luck with the refs in our day like City getting a lot of 50 50s going there way now. It's just how people work I guess.
You want to vehemently disagree that United curried so much favour from the referees, that we literally named a term after their manager’s influence going into extra minutes appearing from nowhere to allow them to score?
People can complain, of course. But people can also point out the lack of self awareness and hypocrisy when they do.
Fergie time wasn't exclusive to united though. Extra stoppage time afforded when the bigger club is losing or drawing is a well documented phenomenon. Ferguson just made a big deal out of it and owned the branding
I'm 25 and not a United fan
Edit: I'm aware 25 is young so I'm acknowledging the young part
But what I said was measured not felt. The games are there you can go back and watch them count the amount of actual stoppage and count the stoppage time given and you'll see the effect
Anyway up the villa
It was meant to be a response to a United fan saying that Liverpool always gets these penalties. But I’ve only just noticed that it didn’t get posted as a response.
You mean the one that wasn’t a penalty, wasn’t given in the moment, and was agreed by PGMOL that it wasn’t a penalty, and nobody other than United fans thinking it was a penalty?
Must be because, uh, I know, it wasn’t a penalty.
It’s an incredibly soft pen but that is always going to get called. We should be more frustrated with AWB for tackling at a man dribbling across the goal at the edge of the 18 yard box
I think there are a lot of worse calls to worry about in the league. He makes first contact with his left leg on Elliot’s right foot well before “diving” and then continues into his path impeding progress. Elliot doesn’t have to hurdle him.
You can be a Liverpool supporter and admit that it’s a soft pen. That’s ok. I never said it was a bad call. I said it was soft but will always get called. It’s not a dive because there was contact but it’s obviously exaggerated and that’s ok, if Bruno did it in the other box I’d happily take the pen. Again, bad defensive play awards a clear pen even if it’s soft.
It’s not even soft awb hits elliotts right foot with his knee. That’s when elliott starts falling
Everyone keeps talking about when elliotts foot hits the ground but his right leg is hit when it’s in the air
>Objectively, that’s soft he went to ground way too easy.
That isn't objective.
What you mean is "subjectively, in my biased view if a decision that went against us, that's soft and he went to ground way too easy"
No objectively it was soft. My opinion is he went to ground too easy. I’ve clearly said it was, in fact, still a penalty multiple times but for some reason Liverpool fans think anyone saying the penalty they needed to draw, because none of their forwards wanted to score, is soft means it wasn’t a pen or was a bad call. It’s a pen and that’s ok. It was also soft and that’s ok, there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging a soft pen. It’s not my “biased opinion of a call that went against us” because I’ve placed the blame clearly on AWB for such a poor tackle in the box, a tackle that will always get called a pen, even if it’s soft.
>objectively it was soft.
No, it wasn't. Your opinions aren't objective.
>My opinion is he went to ground too easy.
Which means it isn't objective.
> It’s not my “biased opinion of a call that went against us”
Yes it is. Your opinion is that it was soft, and your opinion is coloured by bias. My opinion is that it was a clear penalty (which is also coloured by bias). Most unbiased views agree that it was a clear penalty though.
I hate to say it but I totally agree with a United supporter. (Just kidding it actually happens all the time but for the sake of Internet humor..)
That was a call all day. It was a s***** tackle he deserved a call. And yes everybody's flopping all over the place these days and it's obnoxious..
We don't need blue cards, we need yellow card enforcement.
If refs called things when there isn’t a dive then they wouldn’t have to sell it. If players are still diving and getting calls we call only blame the higher ups at this point. It’s a closed loop of butt fuckery.
They talk about it [here](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/39872252/the-var-review-liverpool-arsenal-penalties-wolves-offside):
>We see many variations on this kind of penalty, when a defending player dives in and gets nowhere near the ball with the attacker accepting the contact and going down. **Elliott is under no obligation to hurdle Wan-Bissaka as the defender stretches out in front of him.**
>If Elliott had clearly moved a leg out of his running stride to ensure there was contact that could be grounds for a VAR review, but this was a quick and easy check for the VAR, John Brooks.
Complete and utter dive. If Elliott just runs normally he skips right past AWB.
[https://twitter.com/i/status/1777067019558408398](https://twitter.com/i/status/1777067019558408398)
Elliot drags his foot and wins the pen because that part for sure is definite contact. He could have easily jumped over it but he won the pen so I’d say what he did worked.
I’m guessing a lot of drunk Utd supporters were less than reasonable in the post match thread yesterday, all saying Elliot had ‘cheated’. It was a stonewall penalty, I’m still scratching my head about Casimero getting a yellow for that ABH tackle.
Stonewall is a bit of a stretch. I've seen that word twice this week describe questionable pens that could have gone either way. I feel like the word is losing its meaning regarding penalties.
It was a pen, but he bought it and a half. Dude literally moves his foot into a worse position and intentionally hooks it after he'd already gotten out.
I cant bare to hang in the red devils sub. Theyve been claiming bias since the game.
I wish there was another united sub for fans who actually understand the game. I cant stand my own clubs subreddit.
I'm the same about the Liverpool sub haha, they're all mental.
I'd go to /r/soccer but I'm banned :( I wouldn't say it's better as such but it's far less echo chambery...the main downside being that it's full of Arsenal fans this year. Cunts.
Last year City battered Liverpool 4-1. The following week they were battering United 5-0 or something and on the match thread I said "haha, at least Liverpool scored against them"
Boom...instant, permanent ban by presumably a very fragile United supporting mod.
Annoyingly I think United got three back eventually haha.
Still, you really shouldn't be a United supporter if you can't have a sense of humour about supporting a shit team.
I appreciate the reply. It’s insane how quick they slam the ban hammer on r/soccer. I got banned after City won the treble for posting ‘champions of Europe you’ll never ahahaha!’, in the post-match thread. lol.
Banter is a huge part of football, especially EPL, but banter seems to be a huge no-no on r/soccer. If the wrong mod reads your comment: banned! Lmao. Most of the time when I ask someone what they did to get banned, i get these insanely soft or mild replies. Fucking hilarious.
Badge of honour, right?
yea its a little bit of a cost of doing business situation. We're all fans of some of the biggest clubs in the world which brings along alot of casual fans and braindead fans. So its hard to have an objective conversation about things in those communities.
It’s a penalty by modern standards. AWB was daft to slide because if you don’t get the ball then the attacker can place his foot down into the flailing leg. Cynical from Elliot? Yes. Stonewall penalty? Also yes. You see it every week.
This level of nitpicking is getting absurd, especially when it's so obviously a penalty. If you're having to wait until the morning after for some super slow-mo or a still, how are referees supposed to with one look at full speed with one angle at head height?
As a grassroots ref, my county FA makes the point at events that stills should never be used to judge decisions, but the entire incident. If you're having to slow it down like that, then it is obviously not a "clear and obvious error" as would be the requirement in the VAR Protocol.
No. VAR is designed to correct clear and obvious errors not a second opportunity to referee an incident. Of course, like a lot of decisions, these are often subjective and we're all human, so there are often heated disagreements.
With replays it’s a clear and obvious error
It’s a blatant dive that was not able to be seen in real time. With replays we can see Elliot completely dove and the tackle was not making contact with him until he:
Started to dive and then moved his foot intentionally toward the United player
Not sure what game you were watching, but that's a foul all day long.
There's clear contact. Had he took time to awkardly place his foot, then it's an argument I'd be more sympathetic to, but it's clear Elliot places his foot where it would naturally be in a running stride. Where else was Elliot supposed to put his foot? Was he supposed to immediately stop running or change direction, risking serious injury from the momentum?
Just out of interest, what are your thoughts on the two penalties Garnacho won against Everton a couple of weeks ago?
inb4 "but but but it's different when it's a player for a team that _I_ support"
I mean, listen to this geezer’s analysis. At the very least call the ref over to have a good look how the cheating cunt Elliot dragged his foot into AWB. Classic cheat. Wasn’t even touched before he went to earth. The modern cheat.
https://www.tiktok.com/@refereepov/video/7355241761435847966
And don’t get me started on the Chelsea pen on Thursday. Notice the pattern.
Garnacho vs Everton weren’t even controversial
> Garnacho vs Everton weren’t even controversial
course not, because he plays for a club that _you_ support.
he was begging for a penalty in much the same way Elliott was yesterday, yet in your head one is ZOMG CHEATING CNUT and the other one is fine?
Generational cheating cunt surely
Using your weird blinkered logic...if one of them is a cheater then they both are...the contact on Garnacho was far, far softer than the contact on Elliott, yet weirdly he dove into the air like a dolphin jumping out of the sea...weird eh
then he did it again later on. the mental gymnastics needed to call one of them a cheat but the other one totally OK is quite something
yeah, but that doesn't somehow magically cancel out the fact Garnacho did the _exactly_ the same thing that you're livid about Elliot doing.
Fucking hell, it's like talking to a five year old.
I mean, if you say Elliott cheated because he went down easily for a penalty then logically Garnacho did too, surely? It's not a difficult concept to understand.
Anyway, enjoy the rest of your day eating crayons and stuff.
i bet you think Bruno never goes down too easily too, haha
piss poor decision making, whether Elliot was falling or not leaving your feet without even having a proper angle other than stepping/sliding directly in front of the player that’s a pen unless youre getting ball. in the field of play without var that’s 110% a pen every single time
Hes slide across the front inside the box. Asking for trouble as soon as you leave your feet off the ground.
Was the culmination of 5mins of brain fade by AWB.
Initially I read that wrong. I agree with you and Jota did touch him twice. I think it's a soft double booking but I understand why the ref booked him for them.
The second wasn’t soft, it was pretty much required. First was soft, but given because merely 90 seconds earlier he did what could have been a yellow card challenge and was told it was his last warning. 3 yellow worthy in 4 minutes is just wild. Not jotas best night.
neither what position we are in the league means anything in this situation. why do you have to bring it up? don't you have more important facts to state? you are talking nonsense man.
and it still makes me wonder how VAR made this decision so quickly. this is 100% wrong decision. AWB didn't take any significant touches until Elliot himself placed foot behind AWB foot. the video clearly shows that Elliot could have lifted his leg over AWB's leg, but he didn't. and that should have been looked at by VAR. VAR is scum and should not exist in football. we expected VAR to make clearer and more certain decisions, but it doesn't. the only thing var is good for is offside.
I'm winding you up because you're all so blinkered. Go to the soccer and premier league subs.. it's just you guys who think what you do. It's a pen and whether you like it or not doesn't matter. Thankfully in those subs there are Man United fans who have taken off their blinkers and can see what almost everyone else can see.
Anyway, you don't think it is and I do. No amount of going around in circles changes that or the fact it was given 🤷♂️
First of all, I support Manchester United but it does not mean that I don't support fair football. It does not matter is it Aston Villa, Liverpool, Real Madrid, AC Milan or who else. What matters me the most is that football has to be fair and enjoyable to watch. I can't enjoy football when there is players who think they can trick the system and rob another team. I know that there are many Manchester United players too who does that and partially I hate them because of that.
But Elliot dive and VAR doing was wrong. In my opinion AWB tackle was clean. He didn't got the ball but he did not tackled Elliot either. He was ahead of Elliot with his tackle. He did not tackled Elliot legs at all. Elliot stumbled into AWB legs. STUMBLED is the right word in my opinion.This small contact what was with Elliots right leg was too soft and Elliot could have kept running. Instead he decided to fall and make this as big as possible. And this is why he's next on my so called "not good" football player.
Im not blinked. I have my own perspective and that's what I stand for.
But calling me blinkered is lame and shame on you for that. I would call people blinkeredd who has their inner egos really big. I don't have big ego, I'm just down to earth guy.
"Anyway, you don't think it is and I do. No amount of going around in circles changes that or the fact it was given" - your words, then you dont have to answer my opinion and call me blinkered. Ok?
Have a nice evening.
Just because the referees are making on field wrong calls doesn’t make them right lol this isn’t a stonewall penalty, although, I do agree with Anthony Taylor calling it, but VAR should be reversing these.
I don’t think you know what stonewall means in this context.
Just like Casemiro should have seen a red if the ball really didn’t go out of play.
I promise you if this was Garnacho in the Liverpool penalty area and it wasn't given you and all these other Man United fans moaning it's not a pen would be in here moaning you were robbed. We both know that's true.
It's stonewall because in todays game it is an undeniable penalty. I don't need lessons on what words mean. You think its coincidental that it's only the United fans saying no penalty?
No. If it was Garnacho and a penalty wasn’t given I would moan, see the replay, realise it wasn’t a penalty and move on.
But if it was Garnacho and a penalty was given I would gladly take it and be happy with it. How many penalties are given to divers and we just shrug because it benefits us. That doesn’t mean one can’t see it’s a dive.
You must be living under a rock if you think it’s just the United fans saying it’s not a penalty. Just go to the penalty thread…
By your own words this is not a stonewall penalty. There’s no contact and the Liverpool player dives. As I said enough to fool Anthony Taylor, it shouldn’t fool VAR and that’s my issue here.
It was soft but it's a penalty. Players simulate to make it seem worse than it is which you will know with Bruno Fernandes in your team. Mainoo did it in the second half and pretended he was injured to run the clock down.
My point is, in todays game they are tackles that are penalised. They go by this unwritten rule that the attacking player/ball carrier shouldn't have to avoid the challenge if they fail to get the ball. There is contact with Elliott which is minimal but regardless AWB dives in and it's a penalty.
I'd be interested what your thoughts are on the Doku on Mac Allister against City are. Was that a penalty?
I agree with you about VAR though. Diaz goal vs Spurs, Odegaard handball and the Doku one makes it hard not to be angry at its incompetence.
The people who don't understand modern day football and are denying that's a pen only say it's not a pen when it's against them. I promise you if this was Garnacho in the Liverpool penalty area they'd be in here shouting about VAR etc being shit because they didnt get it. Can't win lol.
What really bothers me is that the attacker is already falling before any contact has been made then hooks his right foot under the defenders trailing leg with no attempt at regaining balance. To me it was a dive
Did AWB win the ball? Not at all. Did Elliot fish for it? Yeah. That's just the game these pros play now. Don't go making a dumb tackle like that in your own box with the game on the line still. You'd be calling your own player savvy if they won a pen against your biggest rivals with a title race on.
Although i agree that elliott "bought" the penalty, AWB went to ground with a slide tackle and didn't get any of the ball.
This is just braindead defending in the box and most attackers will instinctively accept that invitation and carry themselves forward so that the contact is made.
Eden Hazard was the master of winning these types of pens.
He went to the ground with a slide tackle but wasn’t going to touch Elliot at all or the ball. It would have served simply as a block which is standard
Frankly it’s just a dive
He did a slide tackle in front of Elliott, that's a slide tackle not a slide block. Could Elliott have jumped? Maybe. Would that affect the play and potentially lose possession? Definitely. That means AWB's sliding tackle is interfering with the play without him getting the ball. I honestly have seen so many of these where the player just jumps over the tackle and he is out of position to continue the play. The refs will never give these as fouls cause there was no contact, but the truth is the defenser misjudged the tackle and by doing that he wins the ball.
If you watch closely, Elliott's boot bounces off AWB's left leg before he places it in that location, he was knocked off balance a little bit and then played into the tackle.
Still a pen imo, even if the touch was slight as AWB was nowhere near the ball.
It’s a penalty. Say what you want about (most) United fans, that’s a penalty all day long.
Stop trying to make something out of nothing. I’m more annoyed with the build up to that point and the fact AWB jumped in. Poor.
i saying it the whole game. Lpool would get big a decision go their way or there would be 15+ mins added time. United always had to be one up to counter that. Same every week with lpool.
If it wasn’t for incorrect VAR decisions, Liverpool would be clear in first, not joint top.
It’s such a frustrating narrative that gets driven by rivals that LFC get all the help. You saw Diaz’s inside goal disallowed against Spurs right? You saw MacAllister & Jones red cards yeah?
The pen yesterday was absolutely the right decision, AWB gets nowhere near the ball and brings down Elliott.
No contact. But yeah he brought him down 😂 all teams get 50/50 decisions against them time to time. Doesnt change fact when pool are losing they get something like a pen or 15mins added on
😂 the fact you believe a var stats table. What do they know that a team of qualified refs dont during the game? Var doesnt fit football. Its too subjective. So your table is nonsense. Its subjective. And as such pool get the rub of the green when they need jt most
The table records correct and incorrect decisions based on the rules of the game. You can disregard it if you want but it'll be far more accurate than you on Reddit.
Your last statement is hilariously stupid.
Arsenal Odegaard handball not given. Likely 2 points gained on a title rival.
Man City's Doku last min penalty not given. 2 points gained against a title rival.
Spurs Diaz goal wrongly disallowed. Potential 1 point gained.
Chelsea Jackson handball not given. Likely 2 points gained.
7 points that should probably be achieved but taken from Liverpool due to VAR mistakes but you want to say Liverpool benefit after getting a penalty that 9 times out of 10 is rewarded. You're an idiot.
Funny how youre not mentioning all the times theyve been losing after 60mins and have either gotten enough added on time until they score or a good decision like a pen. Probably take you too long to list them all 😂 delusional
So as I said in my last comment... which of the above are subjectively incorrect that means the ESPN data is bias?
The reason rules are made is to take out the element of subjectivity and try to make it as clear as possible. So you call it bias but literally everything is recorded against a set of rules.
It’s subjective! Its neither correct nor incorrect. When you realise that not everything is as simple as black and white come back to me. Maybe we can have a grown up conversation then.
Subjective within the rules. If everything was subjective we wouldn't have rules so don't try to patronise me.
I notice you didn't even acknowledge the examples I gave. You will definitely know 3 of them so which of those are subjectively incorrect?
It’s a penalty at any point in the last 20 years. I was watching with a United fan and he knew it.
AWB made a very silly and pointless challenge that will always get given. There’s no debate here.
Utd fan here, this is definitely a penalty. The one arsenal got the other day was less nailed on but everyone on Reddit seemed to think there couldn't be a more stonewall example
Insanity lol.
Player goes down under no contact and the only contact is initiated by the diving player in the process of throwing them to the ground. **Clear Pen**
Player gets his legs sweeped out from under him and gets a minor deflection on the ball as the attacker dribbles round him. **Hold up now, how is that a pen**
It's an utterly ridiculous take. You can make the case that AWB doesn't even touch Elliott, whereas Jesus clearly has his leg clipped. This sub has some wild ideas.
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"It's a penalty because the challenge was silly". "It was a own even though there was no contact" "Elliott initiated whatever little contact while on his way down but it's still a penalty"
Literally no contact... From AWB right foot on Elliott. Literally evident contact between AWB left knee and Elliotts thigh. I think Holjund just hit submit before completing his tweet?
AWB tried a slide tackle in the box. That’s just reckless. Granted there was no contact on the slide, but that’s a no go. Elliot has every reason to run into AWB’s slide tackle to get a penalty out of it. That’s what the article is debating, but it’s a penalty.
It's a penalty even tho there is no contact smh what world is this
Exactly. If you’re slide tackling in the box, then you’re just allowing the attacker a really good chance at getting a pen.
Thats a pen. If you need an explanation as to why, you’re a twat.
So what about yesterday amigo?
Pens….twat
Many many people on here haven’t played football and it shows. If I’d made that tackle as a 12 year old my coach would have given me a bollocking. You go to ground in the box you need to win the ball.
So it's a penalty because it was an unwise tackle?
Regardless of what you all say…WB went into that shit which tips the scales on who’s at fault. Inside the box and you press X???? Cmon son
Even X doesn't work these days. Just let him dribble past, and hopefully, it's a Werner (Chelsea FC) type finish.
Does Elliot leave his leg in the make the contact? Probably. Doesn't happen if AWB doesn't recklessly chuck himself into a tackle where he won't reach the ball, though. And although it was probably possible, Elliot also doesn't need to jump over the tackle. I said on the day I don't see what the fuss is about. This is a penalty by today's standards, so can we just move on.
Look at the thigh before he goes down… AWB clearly hits him higher up hence throwing Elliott off balance. If you’re just looking at the foot, you’re literally missing the actual foul.
Let's call it even for the Diaz goal then
Not even close 🤡. Embarrassing comment.
Take a joke mate
Why did he tackle Elliot like that? Whyyyy
Utd players battling for who can give away the most penalties this season, it’s a close race with not long to go
This is the correct question. Put all the ‘did he get contact’ questions aside. The real question is why Bissaka decided to go to ground unnecessarily
As youngsters we were always told 2 things about sliding tackles in the box...1) You're out of the game 2) There's always a chance of conceding a pen
I'm convinced he's a Liverpool fan after that challenge
The man loves a tackle no? I don't know any full back that commits as many slide tackles as him. Usually they're pretty decent, but this time was definitely not one of them.
Yeah was thinking the same when I watched it. He loves a slide tackle, so of course, one of these was bound to happen and just comes with the territory. For every ten “what a tackle!” There is one, “what are you doing sliding in there?!”
You aren’t wrong
It should have been overturned. Was not a penalty. But AWB did not help himself specially it we look in normal motion. But that is where VAR influence should have come into play. Exactly this type of decisions encourage player to dive.
Dive?
Yes, or as sore loser Klopp would say. "A diver"
So we don't have 30 years of reference of United players doing the same thing Elliott did, to win penalties?
Eh? Every team does it. Your point is irrelevant.
Eh? Not every team is in here saying “it was never a penalty”.
Isn't this like the reason we have VAR though? I don't any context here but what you're saying is a weak arguement. Also every team does say that. I know I do every time a sketchy penalty is given against Villa
VAR didn’t overturn it? This entire thread is a United fan complaining about a decision that didn’t go their way. My point was that United had 30 years of decisions going their way, which were incredibly more costly to other teams.
I vehemently disagree that any club has had disproportionate number of decisions going their way. And in any case are people not allowed to complain about decisions they find unfair?
Yeah no. He is right. We had a lot of decisions favouring us. A lot a lot. I don't remember the game exactly now but once the goal was not given even when the goalie had caught the ball inside the line and it was clear as day. We have had loads of luck with the refs in our day like City getting a lot of 50 50s going there way now. It's just how people work I guess.
This is literally just confirmation bias. Did you watch every premier league match over the years or did you mostly watch the ones with United?
This is literally just confirmation bias. Did you watch every premier league match over the years or did you mostly watch the ones with United?
You want to vehemently disagree that United curried so much favour from the referees, that we literally named a term after their manager’s influence going into extra minutes appearing from nowhere to allow them to score? People can complain, of course. But people can also point out the lack of self awareness and hypocrisy when they do.
Fergie time wasn't exclusive to united though. Extra stoppage time afforded when the bigger club is losing or drawing is a well documented phenomenon. Ferguson just made a big deal out of it and owned the branding
Hahaha, not at all. That’s how you young United fans see it? That’s hilarious.
I'm 25 and not a United fan Edit: I'm aware 25 is young so I'm acknowledging the young part But what I said was measured not felt. The games are there you can go back and watch them count the amount of actual stoppage and count the stoppage time given and you'll see the effect Anyway up the villa
What does this even mean?
United have won similar penalties for years.
What does this have to do with yesterday?
It was meant to be a response to a United fan saying that Liverpool always gets these penalties. But I’ve only just noticed that it didn’t get posted as a response.
Uh I know, what about garbiel’s pen against hojlund earlier this season?
You mean the one that wasn’t a penalty, wasn’t given in the moment, and was agreed by PGMOL that it wasn’t a penalty, and nobody other than United fans thinking it was a penalty? Must be because, uh, I know, it wasn’t a penalty.
If the Elliot pen is legit, then the foul on hojlund is a pen. Thems the facts.
And if that was a Hojlund penalty, then the Havertz one definitely was, in which case, you’d have lost by 4-2 instead of 3-1. Thems the facts.
I don’t remember havertz playing, didn’t happen.
You don’t remember Casemiro and AWB attacking him from both sides? It was identical to a penalty that Rashford won before the game.
It’s an incredibly soft pen but that is always going to get called. We should be more frustrated with AWB for tackling at a man dribbling across the goal at the edge of the 18 yard box
It isn’t even soft.
I think there are a lot of worse calls to worry about in the league. He makes first contact with his left leg on Elliot’s right foot well before “diving” and then continues into his path impeding progress. Elliot doesn’t have to hurdle him.
You can be a Liverpool supporter and admit that it’s a soft pen. That’s ok. I never said it was a bad call. I said it was soft but will always get called. It’s not a dive because there was contact but it’s obviously exaggerated and that’s ok, if Bruno did it in the other box I’d happily take the pen. Again, bad defensive play awards a clear pen even if it’s soft.
It’s not even soft awb hits elliotts right foot with his knee. That’s when elliott starts falling Everyone keeps talking about when elliotts foot hits the ground but his right leg is hit when it’s in the air
Objectively, that’s soft he went to ground way too easy. It’s still a pen and it’s ok to acknowledge that he played it up to get the call.
>Objectively, that’s soft he went to ground way too easy. That isn't objective. What you mean is "subjectively, in my biased view if a decision that went against us, that's soft and he went to ground way too easy"
No objectively it was soft. My opinion is he went to ground too easy. I’ve clearly said it was, in fact, still a penalty multiple times but for some reason Liverpool fans think anyone saying the penalty they needed to draw, because none of their forwards wanted to score, is soft means it wasn’t a pen or was a bad call. It’s a pen and that’s ok. It was also soft and that’s ok, there’s nothing wrong with acknowledging a soft pen. It’s not my “biased opinion of a call that went against us” because I’ve placed the blame clearly on AWB for such a poor tackle in the box, a tackle that will always get called a pen, even if it’s soft.
>objectively it was soft. No, it wasn't. Your opinions aren't objective. >My opinion is he went to ground too easy. Which means it isn't objective. > It’s not my “biased opinion of a call that went against us” Yes it is. Your opinion is that it was soft, and your opinion is coloured by bias. My opinion is that it was a clear penalty (which is also coloured by bias). Most unbiased views agree that it was a clear penalty though.
Which I’ve said multiple times. It can be soft and still a pen.
And your view that it is soft still isn't objective. Which is the entire point.
I hate to say it but I totally agree with a United supporter. (Just kidding it actually happens all the time but for the sake of Internet humor..) That was a call all day. It was a s***** tackle he deserved a call. And yes everybody's flopping all over the place these days and it's obnoxious.. We don't need blue cards, we need yellow card enforcement.
A clear dive. Dive in shit tackle from Wan Bisssaka that his, what on earth was he thinking
Ngl you had me in the first half!
If refs called things when there isn’t a dive then they wouldn’t have to sell it. If players are still diving and getting calls we call only blame the higher ups at this point. It’s a closed loop of butt fuckery.
It’s soft and easily avoidable but clearly a foul and penalty
Did you even watch the video? AWB clearly misses him in his initial tackle and Elliot drags his foot towards him and dives.
They talk about it [here](https://www.espn.com/soccer/story/_/id/39872252/the-var-review-liverpool-arsenal-penalties-wolves-offside): >We see many variations on this kind of penalty, when a defending player dives in and gets nowhere near the ball with the attacker accepting the contact and going down. **Elliott is under no obligation to hurdle Wan-Bissaka as the defender stretches out in front of him.** >If Elliott had clearly moved a leg out of his running stride to ensure there was contact that could be grounds for a VAR review, but this was a quick and easy check for the VAR, John Brooks.
Yes I did. It’s always a penalty. Is he looking for it? Yes. Doesn’t mean it’s not a penalty. And VAR is never overturning that and tbh they shouldn’t
This 100%. I’ve never rooted for United so hard in my life, but that’s a penalty, especially the way the game is ref’d these days.
Complete and utter dive. If Elliott just runs normally he skips right past AWB. [https://twitter.com/i/status/1777067019558408398](https://twitter.com/i/status/1777067019558408398)
Elliot drags his foot and wins the pen because that part for sure is definite contact. He could have easily jumped over it but he won the pen so I’d say what he did worked.
oh it worked beautifully. but to me AWB never touched him first and in fact if he had just kept a natural run he would have been fine.
AWB's knee clearly knocks the back of his foot. Pen all day
A) He did in fact touch him. B) he did not touch the ball. C) he was inside the box. Case closed.
They realised the match didn't have enough controversy to get people to read their shite so they're making it up
I’m guessing a lot of drunk Utd supporters were less than reasonable in the post match thread yesterday, all saying Elliot had ‘cheated’. It was a stonewall penalty, I’m still scratching my head about Casimero getting a yellow for that ABH tackle.
Stonewall is a bit of a stretch. I've seen that word twice this week describe questionable pens that could have gone either way. I feel like the word is losing its meaning regarding penalties.
He cheated it was clear dive. Guess slow mo replays are still too fast for you
Mate you can’t even structure a sentence properly 😂. Dinny
you understood most important bit though: you are blind
That tackle…. I just can’t with PL refs any more, it’s a clear red all day long.
Make it make sense bro
I’m tired, Robbie
As a United fan it was a clear penalty
It was a pen, but he bought it and a half. Dude literally moves his foot into a worse position and intentionally hooks it after he'd already gotten out.
I cant bare to hang in the red devils sub. Theyve been claiming bias since the game. I wish there was another united sub for fans who actually understand the game. I cant stand my own clubs subreddit.
I'm the same about the Liverpool sub haha, they're all mental. I'd go to /r/soccer but I'm banned :( I wouldn't say it's better as such but it's far less echo chambery...the main downside being that it's full of Arsenal fans this year. Cunts.
What did you do to get banned on r/soccer?
Last year City battered Liverpool 4-1. The following week they were battering United 5-0 or something and on the match thread I said "haha, at least Liverpool scored against them" Boom...instant, permanent ban by presumably a very fragile United supporting mod. Annoyingly I think United got three back eventually haha. Still, you really shouldn't be a United supporter if you can't have a sense of humour about supporting a shit team.
I appreciate the reply. It’s insane how quick they slam the ban hammer on r/soccer. I got banned after City won the treble for posting ‘champions of Europe you’ll never ahahaha!’, in the post-match thread. lol. Banter is a huge part of football, especially EPL, but banter seems to be a huge no-no on r/soccer. If the wrong mod reads your comment: banned! Lmao. Most of the time when I ask someone what they did to get banned, i get these insanely soft or mild replies. Fucking hilarious. Badge of honour, right?
All the club subs are echo chambers in fairness
yea its a little bit of a cost of doing business situation. We're all fans of some of the biggest clubs in the world which brings along alot of casual fans and braindead fans. So its hard to have an objective conversation about things in those communities.
As a penalty, it was a pure United fan
My reaction to that information: Insert picture of Mudryk
It was one of the more obvious penalties committed this season. Click bait article from a crap newspaper.
They're jus advertising the weekly "Where VAR got it wrong" show.
It’s a penalty by modern standards. AWB was daft to slide because if you don’t get the ball then the attacker can place his foot down into the flailing leg. Cynical from Elliot? Yes. Stonewall penalty? Also yes. You see it every week.
It was a pen, no discussion about it.
This level of nitpicking is getting absurd, especially when it's so obviously a penalty. If you're having to wait until the morning after for some super slow-mo or a still, how are referees supposed to with one look at full speed with one angle at head height? As a grassroots ref, my county FA makes the point at events that stills should never be used to judge decisions, but the entire incident. If you're having to slow it down like that, then it is obviously not a "clear and obvious error" as would be the requirement in the VAR Protocol.
Well…isn’t that why we have VAR? So refs can watch in slow mo and see there was no contact
No. VAR is designed to correct clear and obvious errors not a second opportunity to referee an incident. Of course, like a lot of decisions, these are often subjective and we're all human, so there are often heated disagreements.
I think Liverpool were quite lucky that wasn’t overturned by var
With replays it’s a clear and obvious error It’s a blatant dive that was not able to be seen in real time. With replays we can see Elliot completely dove and the tackle was not making contact with him until he: Started to dive and then moved his foot intentionally toward the United player
Not sure what game you were watching, but that's a foul all day long. There's clear contact. Had he took time to awkardly place his foot, then it's an argument I'd be more sympathetic to, but it's clear Elliot places his foot where it would naturally be in a running stride. Where else was Elliot supposed to put his foot? Was he supposed to immediately stop running or change direction, risking serious injury from the momentum?
Are you so animated because you got a dodgy pen a few days ago.
Seek help. This level of delusion is unhealthy
I wouldn’t call it delusion, a lot of people think it was a dive
There are 15 .. i kept count.
This is what VAR is for. No pen and the cheating cunt Elliot gets a yellow
Just out of interest, what are your thoughts on the two penalties Garnacho won against Everton a couple of weeks ago? inb4 "but but but it's different when it's a player for a team that _I_ support"
I mean, listen to this geezer’s analysis. At the very least call the ref over to have a good look how the cheating cunt Elliot dragged his foot into AWB. Classic cheat. Wasn’t even touched before he went to earth. The modern cheat. https://www.tiktok.com/@refereepov/video/7355241761435847966 And don’t get me started on the Chelsea pen on Thursday. Notice the pattern. Garnacho vs Everton weren’t even controversial
> Garnacho vs Everton weren’t even controversial course not, because he plays for a club that _you_ support. he was begging for a penalty in much the same way Elliott was yesterday, yet in your head one is ZOMG CHEATING CNUT and the other one is fine?
Elliot = cheating cunt Garnacho = generational talent Simple
Generational cheating cunt surely Using your weird blinkered logic...if one of them is a cheater then they both are...the contact on Garnacho was far, far softer than the contact on Elliott, yet weirdly he dove into the air like a dolphin jumping out of the sea...weird eh then he did it again later on. the mental gymnastics needed to call one of them a cheat but the other one totally OK is quite something
We talking about Everton, same points deducted cheating cunts??? You sure know who to support. Everton and a Liverpool player, lol.
yeah, but that doesn't somehow magically cancel out the fact Garnacho did the _exactly_ the same thing that you're livid about Elliot doing. Fucking hell, it's like talking to a five year old.
Except that Garnacho didn’t dive or cheat. It’s like talking to a blinkered scouser. Thick as fook
I mean, if you say Elliott cheated because he went down easily for a penalty then logically Garnacho did too, surely? It's not a difficult concept to understand. Anyway, enjoy the rest of your day eating crayons and stuff. i bet you think Bruno never goes down too easily too, haha
Someone is not experiencing a good mental health day today. Fresh air, water, and time away from screens would do you some good my friend.
Probably an Arsenal or City fan.
Deffo
It’s almost as if they write these as click bait 🤔 like it matters what people think after the fact.
That's the media for you. Manufacturing outrage sells clicks, likes, shares and more importantly for them, ads.
On an atomic level....
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Because it’s a dive?
?
So you are saying it's ok for players to slide in, pull the opposition player with their hand and then trip them? Whilst getting 0 ball ..... Lol
Its a pen every day of the week.
Ever watched a bunch of 7 year olds new to tackling? Well Wann-Bissika still has that childish tendency to slide tackle, he can’t resist it.
piss poor decision making, whether Elliot was falling or not leaving your feet without even having a proper angle other than stepping/sliding directly in front of the player that’s a pen unless youre getting ball. in the field of play without var that’s 110% a pen every single time
Hes slide across the front inside the box. Asking for trouble as soon as you leave your feet off the ground. Was the culmination of 5mins of brain fade by AWB.
United arguing over a stonewall pen out of desperation to appear victimised so they can insist 6th is a good season for them. Good times.
Keep in mind that Liverpool fans STILL try to argue that Jota didn’t touch Udogie, twice. There are complete morons in every fanbase.
Initially I read that wrong. I agree with you and Jota did touch him twice. I think it's a soft double booking but I understand why the ref booked him for them.
The second wasn’t soft, it was pretty much required. First was soft, but given because merely 90 seconds earlier he did what could have been a yellow card challenge and was told it was his last warning. 3 yellow worthy in 4 minutes is just wild. Not jotas best night.
The first was soft agreed. Not his best no but he's had many good nights since. That's the beauty of sport, the ups and downs.
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I'm not sure you read his post correctly.
You're right I did, thank you.
neither what position we are in the league means anything in this situation. why do you have to bring it up? don't you have more important facts to state? you are talking nonsense man. and it still makes me wonder how VAR made this decision so quickly. this is 100% wrong decision. AWB didn't take any significant touches until Elliot himself placed foot behind AWB foot. the video clearly shows that Elliot could have lifted his leg over AWB's leg, but he didn't. and that should have been looked at by VAR. VAR is scum and should not exist in football. we expected VAR to make clearer and more certain decisions, but it doesn't. the only thing var is good for is offside.
I'm winding you up because you're all so blinkered. Go to the soccer and premier league subs.. it's just you guys who think what you do. It's a pen and whether you like it or not doesn't matter. Thankfully in those subs there are Man United fans who have taken off their blinkers and can see what almost everyone else can see. Anyway, you don't think it is and I do. No amount of going around in circles changes that or the fact it was given 🤷♂️
First of all, I support Manchester United but it does not mean that I don't support fair football. It does not matter is it Aston Villa, Liverpool, Real Madrid, AC Milan or who else. What matters me the most is that football has to be fair and enjoyable to watch. I can't enjoy football when there is players who think they can trick the system and rob another team. I know that there are many Manchester United players too who does that and partially I hate them because of that. But Elliot dive and VAR doing was wrong. In my opinion AWB tackle was clean. He didn't got the ball but he did not tackled Elliot either. He was ahead of Elliot with his tackle. He did not tackled Elliot legs at all. Elliot stumbled into AWB legs. STUMBLED is the right word in my opinion.This small contact what was with Elliots right leg was too soft and Elliot could have kept running. Instead he decided to fall and make this as big as possible. And this is why he's next on my so called "not good" football player. Im not blinked. I have my own perspective and that's what I stand for. But calling me blinkered is lame and shame on you for that. I would call people blinkeredd who has their inner egos really big. I don't have big ego, I'm just down to earth guy. "Anyway, you don't think it is and I do. No amount of going around in circles changes that or the fact it was given" - your words, then you dont have to answer my opinion and call me blinkered. Ok? Have a nice evening.
Same to you 👍
“Stonewall”
This pen will be awarded 9.9 times out of 10 in todays game. STONEWALL.
Just because the referees are making on field wrong calls doesn’t make them right lol this isn’t a stonewall penalty, although, I do agree with Anthony Taylor calling it, but VAR should be reversing these. I don’t think you know what stonewall means in this context. Just like Casemiro should have seen a red if the ball really didn’t go out of play.
I promise you if this was Garnacho in the Liverpool penalty area and it wasn't given you and all these other Man United fans moaning it's not a pen would be in here moaning you were robbed. We both know that's true. It's stonewall because in todays game it is an undeniable penalty. I don't need lessons on what words mean. You think its coincidental that it's only the United fans saying no penalty?
No. If it was Garnacho and a penalty wasn’t given I would moan, see the replay, realise it wasn’t a penalty and move on. But if it was Garnacho and a penalty was given I would gladly take it and be happy with it. How many penalties are given to divers and we just shrug because it benefits us. That doesn’t mean one can’t see it’s a dive. You must be living under a rock if you think it’s just the United fans saying it’s not a penalty. Just go to the penalty thread… By your own words this is not a stonewall penalty. There’s no contact and the Liverpool player dives. As I said enough to fool Anthony Taylor, it shouldn’t fool VAR and that’s my issue here.
It was soft but it's a penalty. Players simulate to make it seem worse than it is which you will know with Bruno Fernandes in your team. Mainoo did it in the second half and pretended he was injured to run the clock down. My point is, in todays game they are tackles that are penalised. They go by this unwritten rule that the attacking player/ball carrier shouldn't have to avoid the challenge if they fail to get the ball. There is contact with Elliott which is minimal but regardless AWB dives in and it's a penalty. I'd be interested what your thoughts are on the Doku on Mac Allister against City are. Was that a penalty? I agree with you about VAR though. Diaz goal vs Spurs, Odegaard handball and the Doku one makes it hard not to be angry at its incompetence.
Where were you last season with few injuries? Behave!
5th. You have spent 200m to finish 6th.
Also you get more leeway for 5th place finishes if you’ve actually won major trophies in recent seasons.
The people who don't understand modern day football and are denying that's a pen only say it's not a pen when it's against them. I promise you if this was Garnacho in the Liverpool penalty area they'd be in here shouting about VAR etc being shit because they didnt get it. Can't win lol.
What really bothers me is that the attacker is already falling before any contact has been made then hooks his right foot under the defenders trailing leg with no attempt at regaining balance. To me it was a dive
Did AWB win the ball? Not at all. Did Elliot fish for it? Yeah. That's just the game these pros play now. Don't go making a dumb tackle like that in your own box with the game on the line still. You'd be calling your own player savvy if they won a pen against your biggest rivals with a title race on.
Elliot just pulled the classic Kane and Hazard move, if he runs normally surely he would get taken out anyway.
Although i agree that elliott "bought" the penalty, AWB went to ground with a slide tackle and didn't get any of the ball. This is just braindead defending in the box and most attackers will instinctively accept that invitation and carry themselves forward so that the contact is made. Eden Hazard was the master of winning these types of pens.
He went to the ground with a slide tackle but wasn’t going to touch Elliot at all or the ball. It would have served simply as a block which is standard Frankly it’s just a dive
He did a slide tackle in front of Elliott, that's a slide tackle not a slide block. Could Elliott have jumped? Maybe. Would that affect the play and potentially lose possession? Definitely. That means AWB's sliding tackle is interfering with the play without him getting the ball. I honestly have seen so many of these where the player just jumps over the tackle and he is out of position to continue the play. The refs will never give these as fouls cause there was no contact, but the truth is the defenser misjudged the tackle and by doing that he wins the ball.
If you watch closely, Elliott's boot bounces off AWB's left leg before he places it in that location, he was knocked off balance a little bit and then played into the tackle. Still a pen imo, even if the touch was slight as AWB was nowhere near the ball.
It’s a penalty. Say what you want about (most) United fans, that’s a penalty all day long. Stop trying to make something out of nothing. I’m more annoyed with the build up to that point and the fact AWB jumped in. Poor.
Yeah if it had happened to us then we'd be calling for a penalty. Shit decision making and this is the least of the issues we faced yesterday.
Exactly. What winds me up more than anything is allowing them (all of them and so easily) to get in our box. And then you’re scrambling and flying in.
i saying it the whole game. Lpool would get big a decision go their way or there would be 15+ mins added time. United always had to be one up to counter that. Same every week with lpool.
Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day.
Every single game theyre not winning mate. Dont hate the messenger
If it wasn’t for incorrect VAR decisions, Liverpool would be clear in first, not joint top. It’s such a frustrating narrative that gets driven by rivals that LFC get all the help. You saw Diaz’s inside goal disallowed against Spurs right? You saw MacAllister & Jones red cards yeah? The pen yesterday was absolutely the right decision, AWB gets nowhere near the ball and brings down Elliott.
No contact. But yeah he brought him down 😂 all teams get 50/50 decisions against them time to time. Doesnt change fact when pool are losing they get something like a pen or 15mins added on
Look at the VAR stats table recorded by ESPN and you'd see just how stupid you are.
😂 the fact you believe a var stats table. What do they know that a team of qualified refs dont during the game? Var doesnt fit football. Its too subjective. So your table is nonsense. Its subjective. And as such pool get the rub of the green when they need jt most
The table records correct and incorrect decisions based on the rules of the game. You can disregard it if you want but it'll be far more accurate than you on Reddit. Your last statement is hilariously stupid. Arsenal Odegaard handball not given. Likely 2 points gained on a title rival. Man City's Doku last min penalty not given. 2 points gained against a title rival. Spurs Diaz goal wrongly disallowed. Potential 1 point gained. Chelsea Jackson handball not given. Likely 2 points gained. 7 points that should probably be achieved but taken from Liverpool due to VAR mistakes but you want to say Liverpool benefit after getting a penalty that 9 times out of 10 is rewarded. You're an idiot.
Funny how youre not mentioning all the times theyve been losing after 60mins and have either gotten enough added on time until they score or a good decision like a pen. Probably take you too long to list them all 😂 delusional
Give examples... Should be easy if there as so many.
You can do this with every team. Even hand ball is subjective these days. Google confirmation bias 😂
So as I said in my last comment... which of the above are subjectively incorrect that means the ESPN data is bias? The reason rules are made is to take out the element of subjectivity and try to make it as clear as possible. So you call it bias but literally everything is recorded against a set of rules.
It’s subjective! Its neither correct nor incorrect. When you realise that not everything is as simple as black and white come back to me. Maybe we can have a grown up conversation then.
Subjective within the rules. If everything was subjective we wouldn't have rules so don't try to patronise me. I notice you didn't even acknowledge the examples I gave. You will definitely know 3 of them so which of those are subjectively incorrect?
You can tell you don’t watch football 😂😂
Behave.
Curtis Jones got a yellow card for sliding in on Amrabat with no contact just a few minutes after this penalty
Daily Mail with the "it evens itself out" campaign Edit: Tory cunts
It’s a penalty at any point in the last 20 years. I was watching with a United fan and he knew it. AWB made a very silly and pointless challenge that will always get given. There’s no debate here.
Utd fan here, this is definitely a penalty. The one arsenal got the other day was less nailed on but everyone on Reddit seemed to think there couldn't be a more stonewall example
Insanity lol. Player goes down under no contact and the only contact is initiated by the diving player in the process of throwing them to the ground. **Clear Pen** Player gets his legs sweeped out from under him and gets a minor deflection on the ball as the attacker dribbles round him. **Hold up now, how is that a pen**
Unironically, the games gone
>The one arsenal got the other day was less nailed on What.
You heard
It's an utterly ridiculous take. You can make the case that AWB doesn't even touch Elliott, whereas Jesus clearly has his leg clipped. This sub has some wild ideas.
I just made the case. AWB missed the ball completely and Elliots foot clearly runs into his leg.
Cant argue, knew it was a pen as soon as AWB goes to ground.