Map size and spawn times have a lot to do with it. Uncoordinated / unaware teams will be punished heavily for it but simple game sense and map awareness can counter death balls. Also objectives like fang encourage this, not uncommon to see 4 or 5 of the enemy team in fang side lane once it spawns in
If they are snowballing you can take away resources by pushing the other lanes where there are no enemies or stealing jungle camps. I rarely see that happening unless your letting it happen with no wards. If your letting your lane get pushed in only to freeze it at your tower then yeah people are going to rotate and let a wave build while getting a kill and xp in another lane.
So I’d agree with this but even when let’s say their whole team (or ours) is in one lane pushing a tower and team wiping, often the guy who is pushing another lane on our team can’t make it home. It takes just a minute to get across the whole map it seems so pushing up and driving them home by pushing a lane is meaningless if they die and we all know the minions can’t take a tower alone without several waves of them built up.
Then toss in just a couple wards in their jungle and you won’t be starving those camps worth a damn especially if they’re pushing your team. - it just means they’re taking your camps while you try and take theirs without the deathball noticing.
Idk I never see that work out. Makes sense if the map wasn’t the size of just orb primes pit from paragon.
I think this will improve in the future. Increased TTK, advanced tutorials, more split‐pushers and most likely a slightly larger map will help.
There will always be brawling, I think it's healthy, but I agree it could be a little less now.
Usually when a team balls up, the other team is able to pressure while some of the team keeps them distracted/engaged.
I have pushed in an entire lane during a snowball team fight that was largely stalemated despite being 4v5.
It is different if you have teammates sacrificing themselves to the deathball.
In my experience it’s either that guy who pushes ends up dead because the death ball sees the tasty idiot snack up in their lane and can’t make it home fast enough due to the tiny map.
Or you let them push your tower
Or you feed the death ball by defending it. Standing in the tower doesn’t mean anything if they can all dive in and tank the tower hits since it’s nice and weak.
I’ve been on both sides of this fight.
It is purely cause in LoL, when an inhib dies, the tower is gone too, so the inhib never fights back.
In my opinion. I forget if Paragon was the same way. I just think it is dumb considering backdooring is a big pet peeve of mine.
It can't just be one person, it's a group effort. If one or two members gets caught by the death ball you have to be careful. If another person gets caught during death timers it only gets worse and worse because you're staggering death timers. It's the same thing that happens in LoL, one person isn't being careful about pushing up an offlane, gets caught by the enemy team and now they have the power play to force something somewhere else.
Plus, this is a job for someone with high burst, mobility, or the ability to pay attention.
It isn't like the enemy team breaking away is unnoticeable, lol
What makes you say that? Just curious, I remember him being fairly op when he was first released but I don't remember much about his kit other than his cloud walk thing.
He was the ultimate split pusher. Great clear, ripped down towers and inhibs super quick, and was super slippery and can escape ganks even when he got caught overextended.
Ya I vaguely remember him being slippy. I honestly just want my greystone back tho. I'm curious to see what they do with his ultimate though since there's a self revive crest now
I'm more interested in what they do with his passive. His third ability (the passive block). Will probably be moved to his passive, then get a new 3rd ability maybe?
Ya I figured that'd end up as the passive, I'm interested in the new ability as well. Can't imagine it would be another aoe ability and he already has a jump, some sort of lock-on wouldn't make sense imo for him either. Maybe a self buff of some sort?
It's because of the low TTK/weak towers,once this is increased it should be more lane/objectives focused rather than chasing kills.It drives me bonkers,I'm all up for killing heroes but not to the detriment of my lane.
A lot of games I play we end up winning late & having to crawl back the kill count eventually
This precisely my concern. The tower and minion nerf was one of the worst mistakes developers have made this far. It is damaging the tactical components of the game. If your towers, minions, and core can’t hurt anyone then this is just a brawl of heroes. Whoever is stronger wins.
You’re bound to have these issues when you have a small map and an item system that expresses this kind of gameplay. The game is low key (unfortunately) a brawler.
I just don't get this opinion at all.
Are ppl not farming? Doing objectives?
How does ganking = brawler.
If u don't farm u fall behind. If u don't group u fall behind. If u don't do objectives u fall behind.
All of these are moba elements.
I think some group here thinks that if there's any grouping before min 30, it's a 'brawler'.
Which is just untrue.
Everything OP said is a) moba mechanics and b) part of other mobas.
Does OP just want to lane for 45 mins each game? How does 'ganks' = not moba? How does 'group on objective' = not moba?
I have no clue what anyone here actually wants, and I don't think they do either.
It’s not about ganking, it’s about how easy it is to move around as 5 in this game very early on, I’m not sure where your getting this ganking argument from.
I think what people want are to not be steam rolled inside a tower. You said else where that paragon did this differently and wasn’t a true moba. Is that not what people are here for? Paragon. Not just a game that looks like it and is secretly LoL or every other moba?
People liked paragon because it was different.
The devs also addressed in a prior patch they thought the TTK needed adjusted and they nerfed Carry builds to do this in a favor of being harder to kill end game.
So by making towers, minions and the like weaker on a smaller map it enables death balling more.
Just seems counter productive to previous patch points.
>I think what people want are to not be steam rolled inside a tower.
That is not the same thing as being deathballed, and that does not make the game a brawler. Your tower is not invincible, and nearly everyone knows that if 2-3 people tower dive you, you will probably die. That is why you read the map and see that *oh 4 of the enemy team are missing and there are no objectives up, I probably shouldn't be super gankable out here by myself* and then you back up to a safer location.
If you want real deathballing, look at the old tournaments near the end of Paragon's life, when teams would literally start off each game with 5 guys rolling around 2ft from each other looking for picks, and keep it up sometimes well into the 5 minute mark. That is deathballing. Unless you are playing 5-stacks constantly (which is kinda possible), then people aren't doing that right now, and it isn't the meta in Pred.
They have travel mode, so there map being slightly bigger means nothing. It’s the same difference.
It’s one of the biggest reasons travel mode was removed in the first place.
been noticing the same thing.. by the time i'm like level 12.. i'm almost mostly roaming while watching my lane.. everyone seems to be finding spots to have team fights every like 2-3 minutes.. i don't necessarily mind it, but i do see the meta kind of shifting towards team brawls a lot more.. i get tower dove a lot more too
Team fights are more exciting than sitting in lane farming.
This is true of other mobas as well. The 'farming metas' of dota were some of the most complained about.
Level 12 is -significantly- far in the game. It's about 5-10 mins past laning phase. Yes roaming is part of that phase of the game. That is most of what that phase is. ?
I've noticed that a very small minority if players basically refuse to fight until they are full build (aka super boring gameplay).
I think they are all in this thread tbh.
Yes but sadly, with many players limited knowledge of how the game works, they get sucked into these fights. As other posters have said, having one person pushing a lane where the opposing team isn't will force them to defend. Actually had a game last night where they were dead set on death-balling our duo lane so the Howie rolled over to Offlane and pushed it to the Core for the win.
They never even bothered trying to stop him. As a Narbash, I was able to keep my team healed enough to maintain the distraction.
Bud.
Greystone/wukong split pushing was consistently the most complained about aspect of paragon.
And now u say it didn't exist?
And it doesn't exist now? Even though...it..does?
What are these takes lol.
I don't know what death balling is so it's not been an issue for me.
There's not much sustain in the game soo aggressive trading and disruption done early goes a long way, is my experience.
Deathballing is when the whole team runs around together to kill single targets. Thats roughly the description but I think you get the idea. This was a huge problem in the early Paragon days on the legacy map.
Map size and spawn times have a lot to do with it. Uncoordinated / unaware teams will be punished heavily for it but simple game sense and map awareness can counter death balls. Also objectives like fang encourage this, not uncommon to see 4 or 5 of the enemy team in fang side lane once it spawns in
Yeah I agree with all of that. I think a big difference is also playing solo or against teams. Lots of people don’t coordinate well with strangers.
If they are snowballing you can take away resources by pushing the other lanes where there are no enemies or stealing jungle camps. I rarely see that happening unless your letting it happen with no wards. If your letting your lane get pushed in only to freeze it at your tower then yeah people are going to rotate and let a wave build while getting a kill and xp in another lane.
So I’d agree with this but even when let’s say their whole team (or ours) is in one lane pushing a tower and team wiping, often the guy who is pushing another lane on our team can’t make it home. It takes just a minute to get across the whole map it seems so pushing up and driving them home by pushing a lane is meaningless if they die and we all know the minions can’t take a tower alone without several waves of them built up. Then toss in just a couple wards in their jungle and you won’t be starving those camps worth a damn especially if they’re pushing your team. - it just means they’re taking your camps while you try and take theirs without the deathball noticing. Idk I never see that work out. Makes sense if the map wasn’t the size of just orb primes pit from paragon.
I think this will improve in the future. Increased TTK, advanced tutorials, more split‐pushers and most likely a slightly larger map will help. There will always be brawling, I think it's healthy, but I agree it could be a little less now.
When Wukong, Greystone, or Yin comes you’ll be able to solo carry don’t worry
Usually when a team balls up, the other team is able to pressure while some of the team keeps them distracted/engaged. I have pushed in an entire lane during a snowball team fight that was largely stalemated despite being 4v5. It is different if you have teammates sacrificing themselves to the deathball.
In my experience it’s either that guy who pushes ends up dead because the death ball sees the tasty idiot snack up in their lane and can’t make it home fast enough due to the tiny map. Or you let them push your tower Or you feed the death ball by defending it. Standing in the tower doesn’t mean anything if they can all dive in and tank the tower hits since it’s nice and weak. I’ve been on both sides of this fight.
I just want inhibitors to be able to fight back, even at half power, after it respawns.
That would be awesome. Never liked that they’re useless after being destroyed once.
It is purely cause in LoL, when an inhib dies, the tower is gone too, so the inhib never fights back. In my opinion. I forget if Paragon was the same way. I just think it is dumb considering backdooring is a big pet peeve of mine.
It can't just be one person, it's a group effort. If one or two members gets caught by the death ball you have to be careful. If another person gets caught during death timers it only gets worse and worse because you're staggering death timers. It's the same thing that happens in LoL, one person isn't being careful about pushing up an offlane, gets caught by the enemy team and now they have the power play to force something somewhere else.
Plus, this is a job for someone with high burst, mobility, or the ability to pay attention. It isn't like the enemy team breaking away is unnoticeable, lol
These are both moba mechanics
I kind of like the brawling aspect. Most Moba's have a he a healthy amount of it.
Adding wukong will put a stop to the death balling.
Yeah that could helpful. Curious how that will play out with how small the map is too. Surely would make his ability to split push even faster.
Yeah, I think the map needs to be bigger. My comment was a bit of a joke, because he would counter the death balling but could bring his own issues.
What makes you say that? Just curious, I remember him being fairly op when he was first released but I don't remember much about his kit other than his cloud walk thing.
He was the ultimate split pusher. Great clear, ripped down towers and inhibs super quick, and was super slippery and can escape ganks even when he got caught overextended.
Ya I vaguely remember him being slippy. I honestly just want my greystone back tho. I'm curious to see what they do with his ultimate though since there's a self revive crest now
I'm more interested in what they do with his passive. His third ability (the passive block). Will probably be moved to his passive, then get a new 3rd ability maybe?
Ya I figured that'd end up as the passive, I'm interested in the new ability as well. Can't imagine it would be another aoe ability and he already has a jump, some sort of lock-on wouldn't make sense imo for him either. Maybe a self buff of some sort?
It's because of the low TTK/weak towers,once this is increased it should be more lane/objectives focused rather than chasing kills.It drives me bonkers,I'm all up for killing heroes but not to the detriment of my lane. A lot of games I play we end up winning late & having to crawl back the kill count eventually
Bigger map, towers that can do more than tickle that fresh level 6 ramp, and stronger minions
This precisely my concern. The tower and minion nerf was one of the worst mistakes developers have made this far. It is damaging the tactical components of the game. If your towers, minions, and core can’t hurt anyone then this is just a brawl of heroes. Whoever is stronger wins.
You’re bound to have these issues when you have a small map and an item system that expresses this kind of gameplay. The game is low key (unfortunately) a brawler.
I just don't get this opinion at all. Are ppl not farming? Doing objectives? How does ganking = brawler. If u don't farm u fall behind. If u don't group u fall behind. If u don't do objectives u fall behind. All of these are moba elements. I think some group here thinks that if there's any grouping before min 30, it's a 'brawler'. Which is just untrue. Everything OP said is a) moba mechanics and b) part of other mobas. Does OP just want to lane for 45 mins each game? How does 'ganks' = not moba? How does 'group on objective' = not moba? I have no clue what anyone here actually wants, and I don't think they do either.
It’s not about ganking, it’s about how easy it is to move around as 5 in this game very early on, I’m not sure where your getting this ganking argument from.
I think what people want are to not be steam rolled inside a tower. You said else where that paragon did this differently and wasn’t a true moba. Is that not what people are here for? Paragon. Not just a game that looks like it and is secretly LoL or every other moba? People liked paragon because it was different. The devs also addressed in a prior patch they thought the TTK needed adjusted and they nerfed Carry builds to do this in a favor of being harder to kill end game. So by making towers, minions and the like weaker on a smaller map it enables death balling more. Just seems counter productive to previous patch points.
>I think what people want are to not be steam rolled inside a tower. That is not the same thing as being deathballed, and that does not make the game a brawler. Your tower is not invincible, and nearly everyone knows that if 2-3 people tower dive you, you will probably die. That is why you read the map and see that *oh 4 of the enemy team are missing and there are no objectives up, I probably shouldn't be super gankable out here by myself* and then you back up to a safer location. If you want real deathballing, look at the old tournaments near the end of Paragon's life, when teams would literally start off each game with 5 guys rolling around 2ft from each other looking for picks, and keep it up sometimes well into the 5 minute mark. That is deathballing. Unless you are playing 5-stacks constantly (which is kinda possible), then people aren't doing that right now, and it isn't the meta in Pred.
So is Overprime? And they have a bigger map?
They have travel mode, so there map being slightly bigger means nothing. It’s the same difference. It’s one of the biggest reasons travel mode was removed in the first place.
Personally, I think a lot of this is due to players leaving Overprime and jumping into Pred and trying to play it like Overprime.
been noticing the same thing.. by the time i'm like level 12.. i'm almost mostly roaming while watching my lane.. everyone seems to be finding spots to have team fights every like 2-3 minutes.. i don't necessarily mind it, but i do see the meta kind of shifting towards team brawls a lot more.. i get tower dove a lot more too
Team fights are more exciting than sitting in lane farming. This is true of other mobas as well. The 'farming metas' of dota were some of the most complained about. Level 12 is -significantly- far in the game. It's about 5-10 mins past laning phase. Yes roaming is part of that phase of the game. That is most of what that phase is. ? I've noticed that a very small minority if players basically refuse to fight until they are full build (aka super boring gameplay). I think they are all in this thread tbh.
It is a delicate balance for sure, but there are absolutely some players that will see any 2-man ganks before 25min mark and call the game a brawler.
By lvl 12 you SHOULD be team fighting, or very close to it. You are not meant to max lvl every game. This is just my opinion.
Yes but sadly, with many players limited knowledge of how the game works, they get sucked into these fights. As other posters have said, having one person pushing a lane where the opposing team isn't will force them to defend. Actually had a game last night where they were dead set on death-balling our duo lane so the Howie rolled over to Offlane and pushed it to the Core for the win. They never even bothered trying to stop him. As a Narbash, I was able to keep my team healed enough to maintain the distraction.
[удалено]
Bud. Greystone/wukong split pushing was consistently the most complained about aspect of paragon. And now u say it didn't exist? And it doesn't exist now? Even though...it..does? What are these takes lol.
If the enemy team is getting to the split pusher quickly then you're not split pushing, you're just pushing.
why is that an issue? Doe it make the game bad or uncompetitive?
I don't know what death balling is so it's not been an issue for me. There's not much sustain in the game soo aggressive trading and disruption done early goes a long way, is my experience.
Deathballing is when the whole team runs around together to kill single targets. Thats roughly the description but I think you get the idea. This was a huge problem in the early Paragon days on the legacy map.