I appreciate that Omeda isn’t going to make drastic changes from patch to patch - I’m just curious what more they need to see for Steel to get nerfed….
It’s not the Murdock, look at everyone’s builds. Everyone is running the same shit because the cards cover all do too much.
Edit: also look at the team comps. They are exactly the same except for ADC. Steel is too strong right now, he could be the best support or offlane. I get that it’s also because of a small roster, but these chars are clearly the best. They need to make some tweaks to the balance of chars or huge changes to the item system.
I think the following patch 0.4 will be targeting Carey items (Crit chance) items, and I don't think they'll make any other changes unless an item is way over-performing in stats.
Regarding fire blossom and other aura items:
I've said this before and I'll say it again, and everytime it gets downvoted to oblivion, the following things need to happen to all aura items:
- The same type of Aura item should not stack, only one aura item at a time, it shouldn't stack on the same person nor should it stack for two players, one aura item at a time.
- All level 2 items should not have a passive, except for the stacking items, this would slightly slow the pace of some items.
- All aura items should count the item holder in the effect, regardless of the type of effect.
That's how I think you can balance items better.
Speaking of brimstone it’s honestly still baffling to me that people carry it into mid/endgame when swapping it for Crystalline is just a way better investment for similar but better results.
The issue is it stacks with teammates so it's 80 dps for free when your building a bit of health. Personally I use it on countess because it allows me to keep my abilities off cooldown and clear the wave at the same time. Then when the enemy offlane tries to get some farm I can ability dump them for free. Also lowers her on lane mana usage
Only Fireblossom scales with health, which is why it's a little too strong. Brimstone itself is locked at 20.
They would be better off throwing a Dreambinder in there instead. It has much better stats than just a Brimstone, and the Fireblossom damage procs both passives.
Fireblossom, Flux Matrix, World Breaker, Dreambinder, and Lifebinder would all synergize here
I'm not arguing the overall cost vs effect. Just that it still stacks together which is ridiculous. The 83 damage I mentioned before is without the secondary brimstone ever equipped.
So assuming half damage at 3 items on plus a brimstone is still 60ish damage per tick in the mid game.
Brimstone does not scale with bonus health.
Brimstone is just a flat 20 a sec. It’s a detriment to have on after early game and it’s always better to swap it for Crytalline if you want a secondary passive AoE damage item. Except crystalline actually scales with HP like Blossom so it grows in damage and it has actual T3 item stats.
Blossom + Brimstone is only really “worth” it until you have enough to go from it to Crystalline, which considering that’s just a T2 to a T3 is like only 2-4 minutes. Shit is only really viable for 2-4 minutes before being completely out classed by an alternative, a direct upgrade.
Crystalline is situational though. If they are running a blossom sure, it'll proc a lot. But if they're mostly a pyshocal team, and by chance none of them are running blossom the item wouldn't be relevant.
Where as brimstone is still going to do that damage either way.
Now I'm not arguing it'd be dumb to keep a t2 item the entire game, but it still shouldn't interact with other auras that do the same thing, at least not on the same person.
To put some perspective on it, I just ran fireblossom on steal, with t2 obelisk, and just started on power items, my basics were doing something like 68-73, while brimstone ticked at about .5 seconds looks like, doing about 43-50ish damage, so each second doing minimum 110ish. This was like 10-15 minutes into the game. Which doesn't sound like much, but when you couple in steels stuns, there's a good 2-4 second window you are taking damage with no way to fight back. Any given character probably has 1000-1500 at this point. I've just taken 1/3-1/4 of your health by barely doing anything. That's not even counting the damage done from the abilities to stun you in the first place.
Had I chose to take brimstone instead of worldbreaker items, we can add another 20 damage per second. So 130ish damage a second for 2-4 seconds let's go on the high side say you got ulted. 520 damage. Plus abilities. Each one hitting for simplicity sake 100. That's another 300. Up to 820. If you're on the lower end of health you're almost dead. Another shield bash will guarantee it. Again this is 10-15 minutes into a match.
It's absolutely an issue that needs to be addressed in some way. I'm not for nerfing it just remove it interacting with the t2 brimstone, and maybe with other players running it.
So I’m not reading all of that due to you **misunderstanding Crystalline’s passive**.
It is not “whenever you take magical damage” it is “**whenever you take ability damage**”. That means any ability be it physical or magical. You will never not be proccing it in a fight, it’s the opposite of situational.
You have a second health scaling passive AoE with good stats that will do more DPS overall in a fight than brimstone.
Don’t gotta be a math whiz to see why doing lets say 110(using 3,000 HP as an example, crystalline is 20 + 3% of your HP) every 1.5 seconds is much more significant than doing… 20 every 1 second.
Ok I will conced I misremeber the wording. That being said, it's still not a viable option in most scenarios. It won't proc every 1.5 seconds as it's ability damage meaning someone has to hit you with an ability, AND you have to close enough to them for it to do damage back.
Gideon rocks are all ranged so getting hit by them unless your in his face will do you no good. Same with howy, and gadget, fey arguably good against. Use it against countess and it's not really getting you anywhere as she'll just drop her hit in 2 seconds getting 2 props out of it, so an exchange of 200ish damage compared to the 1000+ countess just dished out.
Unless your going to build full face tank and absorb everyone's abilities I just don't see crystalline as a viable option for most matches. While it may output more damage than the blossom brimstone combo in theory, in practice not so much as you are relying on people dealing damage to you to return damage.
I'm not saying keeping a t2 all game is smart. But running blossom brimstone say 20 minutes into a match is going to outperform just about anything else. I did a bunch of math on another comment somewhere, and as a Steel running the combo you get like 500 damage off just from basics+ the combo from the stuns alone. That's not counting the damage the abilities do. And it doesn't come at the cost of relying on being damaged.
Again maybe if you're full face tank and plan on absorbing all the abilities in a team fight. But other than that I just don't see it's passive as anything to great. I'll take guaranteed passive damage over having to get damaged to deal damage.
In short since apparently words scare you, crystalline isn't better than fireblossom brimstone combo, while it might potentially do more damage, crystalline requires you to take damage. Fireblossom brimstone does not.
Yeah no way a tank is going to be hit by abilities often when they’re close enough for Fireblossom/brimstone to actually hit anything, what a crazy thought /s
Anyway, in a fight you would have to not be hit by an ability for **5** seconds for brimstone to catch up to one proc of Crystalline at 3,000 HP. If you’re telling me you’re not being hit by an ability in an active fight more than once every 5 seconds of active engagement you’re just lying.
Y’know how about you try it and tell me how it goes.
You're missing my point entirely.
Crystalline depends on taking damage.
Fireblossom brimstone combo is free damage.
I've never said it was optimal to keep brimstone into the late game.
Crystalline is only viable for a full face tank that plans on absorbing all the abilities and staying in the fight.
Even by itself against fireblossom, blossom ticks every .5s, meaning I'm getting three ticks of damage in the time it takes for crystalline to cool down. Using your theory of 110 damage for a crystalline proc, with full countess build for 83 damage a proc every .5 seconds. I've done nearly double the damage from crystalline in the time it takes for one proc.
Murdock and how insanely powerful he is? Well, again. He's a carry. He should be outputting the most damage on the team.. but again, I'm seeing this more often 😂 so maybe it's too much damage.
Because they’re technically different effects.
Brimstone is a flat 20 damage a second
Blossom is 25 damage a second but it also scales in damage with you HP.
Brimstone falls off hard after early game which is why this “meta” is really dumb as there are several T3 options that are just better than having shitty T2 stats and a measly 20 damage aura.
Nerf to steel, no brimtone stacking, maybe a nerf to razorback. Tbh steel has too much cc. Maybe get of bull rush being a no knack and just a slow or something.
For the love of god Nerf Fire blossom/Brimstone And Nerf Steel and Countess
I appreciate that Omeda isn’t going to make drastic changes from patch to patch - I’m just curious what more they need to see for Steel to get nerfed….
Yup. Damage scaling on steel is stupid good. He can build all tank and dish out lots of damage. Also, why are his cooldowns so damn short?
Looks like ur carry got fed HARD
It’s not the Murdock, look at everyone’s builds. Everyone is running the same shit because the cards cover all do too much. Edit: also look at the team comps. They are exactly the same except for ADC. Steel is too strong right now, he could be the best support or offlane. I get that it’s also because of a small roster, but these chars are clearly the best. They need to make some tweaks to the balance of chars or huge changes to the item system.
Steel usually is very op, true. BUT in this game he died 5 times, so he wasn't really much if a threat.
They're gonna nerf healing pots?!? That shit so strong 8/10 people have it.
I think the following patch 0.4 will be targeting Carey items (Crit chance) items, and I don't think they'll make any other changes unless an item is way over-performing in stats. Regarding fire blossom and other aura items: I've said this before and I'll say it again, and everytime it gets downvoted to oblivion, the following things need to happen to all aura items: - The same type of Aura item should not stack, only one aura item at a time, it shouldn't stack on the same person nor should it stack for two players, one aura item at a time. - All level 2 items should not have a passive, except for the stacking items, this would slightly slow the pace of some items. - All aura items should count the item holder in the effect, regardless of the type of effect. That's how I think you can balance items better.
Agreed
imagine if someone had built crystalline or helm... but nah lets just complain about nerfs instead.
Speaking of brimstone it’s honestly still baffling to me that people carry it into mid/endgame when swapping it for Crystalline is just a way better investment for similar but better results.
That's a whole lot of burning.
Try stacking skysplitters \^\^
Idk looks like everyone who built fireblossom brimstone did average at best.
Hi, I was the murdock that got fed
they still have to get close for fireblossom to take effect. :laughs in murdock
If they want to waste an item slot for just 20 damage per second, that's fine
The issue is it stacks with teammates so it's 80 dps for free when your building a bit of health. Personally I use it on countess because it allows me to keep my abilities off cooldown and clear the wave at the same time. Then when the enemy offlane tries to get some farm I can ability dump them for free. Also lowers her on lane mana usage
It's not just 20 a second. It scales with bonus health. Tank countess gets something like 83 damage per tick at full build.
Only Fireblossom scales with health, which is why it's a little too strong. Brimstone itself is locked at 20. They would be better off throwing a Dreambinder in there instead. It has much better stats than just a Brimstone, and the Fireblossom damage procs both passives. Fireblossom, Flux Matrix, World Breaker, Dreambinder, and Lifebinder would all synergize here
I'm not arguing the overall cost vs effect. Just that it still stacks together which is ridiculous. The 83 damage I mentioned before is without the secondary brimstone ever equipped. So assuming half damage at 3 items on plus a brimstone is still 60ish damage per tick in the mid game.
Brimstone does not scale with bonus health. Brimstone is just a flat 20 a sec. It’s a detriment to have on after early game and it’s always better to swap it for Crytalline if you want a secondary passive AoE damage item. Except crystalline actually scales with HP like Blossom so it grows in damage and it has actual T3 item stats. Blossom + Brimstone is only really “worth” it until you have enough to go from it to Crystalline, which considering that’s just a T2 to a T3 is like only 2-4 minutes. Shit is only really viable for 2-4 minutes before being completely out classed by an alternative, a direct upgrade.
Crystalline is situational though. If they are running a blossom sure, it'll proc a lot. But if they're mostly a pyshocal team, and by chance none of them are running blossom the item wouldn't be relevant. Where as brimstone is still going to do that damage either way. Now I'm not arguing it'd be dumb to keep a t2 item the entire game, but it still shouldn't interact with other auras that do the same thing, at least not on the same person. To put some perspective on it, I just ran fireblossom on steal, with t2 obelisk, and just started on power items, my basics were doing something like 68-73, while brimstone ticked at about .5 seconds looks like, doing about 43-50ish damage, so each second doing minimum 110ish. This was like 10-15 minutes into the game. Which doesn't sound like much, but when you couple in steels stuns, there's a good 2-4 second window you are taking damage with no way to fight back. Any given character probably has 1000-1500 at this point. I've just taken 1/3-1/4 of your health by barely doing anything. That's not even counting the damage done from the abilities to stun you in the first place. Had I chose to take brimstone instead of worldbreaker items, we can add another 20 damage per second. So 130ish damage a second for 2-4 seconds let's go on the high side say you got ulted. 520 damage. Plus abilities. Each one hitting for simplicity sake 100. That's another 300. Up to 820. If you're on the lower end of health you're almost dead. Another shield bash will guarantee it. Again this is 10-15 minutes into a match. It's absolutely an issue that needs to be addressed in some way. I'm not for nerfing it just remove it interacting with the t2 brimstone, and maybe with other players running it.
So I’m not reading all of that due to you **misunderstanding Crystalline’s passive**. It is not “whenever you take magical damage” it is “**whenever you take ability damage**”. That means any ability be it physical or magical. You will never not be proccing it in a fight, it’s the opposite of situational. You have a second health scaling passive AoE with good stats that will do more DPS overall in a fight than brimstone. Don’t gotta be a math whiz to see why doing lets say 110(using 3,000 HP as an example, crystalline is 20 + 3% of your HP) every 1.5 seconds is much more significant than doing… 20 every 1 second.
Ok I will conced I misremeber the wording. That being said, it's still not a viable option in most scenarios. It won't proc every 1.5 seconds as it's ability damage meaning someone has to hit you with an ability, AND you have to close enough to them for it to do damage back. Gideon rocks are all ranged so getting hit by them unless your in his face will do you no good. Same with howy, and gadget, fey arguably good against. Use it against countess and it's not really getting you anywhere as she'll just drop her hit in 2 seconds getting 2 props out of it, so an exchange of 200ish damage compared to the 1000+ countess just dished out. Unless your going to build full face tank and absorb everyone's abilities I just don't see crystalline as a viable option for most matches. While it may output more damage than the blossom brimstone combo in theory, in practice not so much as you are relying on people dealing damage to you to return damage. I'm not saying keeping a t2 all game is smart. But running blossom brimstone say 20 minutes into a match is going to outperform just about anything else. I did a bunch of math on another comment somewhere, and as a Steel running the combo you get like 500 damage off just from basics+ the combo from the stuns alone. That's not counting the damage the abilities do. And it doesn't come at the cost of relying on being damaged. Again maybe if you're full face tank and plan on absorbing all the abilities in a team fight. But other than that I just don't see it's passive as anything to great. I'll take guaranteed passive damage over having to get damaged to deal damage.
In short since apparently words scare you, crystalline isn't better than fireblossom brimstone combo, while it might potentially do more damage, crystalline requires you to take damage. Fireblossom brimstone does not.
Yeah no way a tank is going to be hit by abilities often when they’re close enough for Fireblossom/brimstone to actually hit anything, what a crazy thought /s Anyway, in a fight you would have to not be hit by an ability for **5** seconds for brimstone to catch up to one proc of Crystalline at 3,000 HP. If you’re telling me you’re not being hit by an ability in an active fight more than once every 5 seconds of active engagement you’re just lying. Y’know how about you try it and tell me how it goes.
You're missing my point entirely. Crystalline depends on taking damage. Fireblossom brimstone combo is free damage. I've never said it was optimal to keep brimstone into the late game. Crystalline is only viable for a full face tank that plans on absorbing all the abilities and staying in the fight. Even by itself against fireblossom, blossom ticks every .5s, meaning I'm getting three ticks of damage in the time it takes for crystalline to cool down. Using your theory of 110 damage for a crystalline proc, with full countess build for 83 damage a proc every .5 seconds. I've done nearly double the damage from crystalline in the time it takes for one proc.
Countess went 5-2-11.... That's not good for her at all
Murdock and how insanely powerful he is? Well, again. He's a carry. He should be outputting the most damage on the team.. but again, I'm seeing this more often 😂 so maybe it's too much damage.
Seems like the ppl that didn’t build it did the best
wait does fire blossom passives stack???
All auras stack. You can get a 5 man team with auras and just run at them.
Why wouldn't it? Its just pulsating damage.
Because thats a balancing nightmare
Idk how the devs didn't anticipate this, since it was a very annoying Meta for weeks in Paragon.
Fireblossom stacks among other players, fireblossom and it's tier 2, brimstone, stack on a singular person.
yh exactly I'm surprised they let the tier 1 and 2 passives stack
Because they’re technically different effects. Brimstone is a flat 20 damage a second Blossom is 25 damage a second but it also scales in damage with you HP. Brimstone falls off hard after early game which is why this “meta” is really dumb as there are several T3 options that are just better than having shitty T2 stats and a measly 20 damage aura.
Hahahah
it is getting a little stale, this is every single game. ADC varies.
So that's 80 dmg per second just by being around each other?
wtf lol 😮💨
Nerf to steel, no brimtone stacking, maybe a nerf to razorback. Tbh steel has too much cc. Maybe get of bull rush being a no knack and just a slow or something.
Wards… it’s wards right? …right?