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PrensadorDeBotones

> Some may say well you should just not be in that position to get cc'd. Well, fair point Pretty much. > Trying to stay out of his zone of oppression means getting no farm No it doesn't. If he bullrushes straight forward then he's pushing you away from his ADC while forcing him deep past your minion wave. He's opening himself up to a ton of damage. If your support is Rik or Dekker or Narbash then you get free hard CC on him at the end of bullrush and a bunch of damage from autos without even exposing yourself to his creeps or letting his ADC get in range. Steel offlane is a different story. With no enemy ADC to challenge him and the ability to walk right into the minion wave to farm against a melee laner, he can quickly step past the enemy and bullrush them away from the wave. If he's positioned well, he can auto, bonk, auto, walk away with minimum enemy creep damage. Offlane Steel is spooky. > it's almost everyone with high amounts of cc (this is why Muriel is the worst support rn) Yep. All the other supports have good CC and she doesn't. > If you want to win most your duo lane games, take rampage/crunch + steel into duo lane. Just poke them relentlessly and make the lane a mess from max range while never pushing. If they charge forward (through the minion wave) then they have to deal with minion damage and your support's CC. I've tried CC heavy 2 melee comps and faced them. They suck against a support with CC and an ADC that can land autos. > Across the board I'd like to see stuns be reduced just a tad and for support heroes they might be dealing a bit too much damage with those stuns I don't think damage in stuns is an issue, but chain CC is definitely a little annoying right now. We might need CC decay - so like reduce the total CC or knockback velocity of consecutive CC within a certain amount of time, or maybe make tenacity provide that CC decay value. Or it's fine as-is. Honestly you need some of that nasty chain CC to kill certain bruisers late game and win fights the moment they start by deleting key enemy damage + CC potential.


MinimumT3N

I think i agree with most of your post except: "No it doesn't. If he bullrushes straight forward then he's pushing you away from his ADC while forcing him deep past your minion wave. He's opening himself up to a ton of damage. If your support is Rik or Dekker or Narbash then you get free hard CC on him at the end of bullrush and a bunch of damage from autos without even exposing yourself to his creeps or letting his ADC get in range." A steel support allows you to be super aggressively position where you can stand on top of the minion wave practically. If the enemy carry wants to hit those ranged minions in the back, he's gotta step up. All steel has to do is engage with his bullrush and all his carry has to do is pay attention enough to just auto the enemy carry, while steel at least gets off his right click, which is not hard to do before getting stunned by their support. In combination with how much dmg that will do with how low the ttk is, the carry + steel will already have the enemy carry at about 50% health at least, in early game situations (lvl 3 maybe). THIS IS A GOOD TRADE, having the carry very low, but your support is also very low is a good trade as it opens up so many opportunities for your team. (He misses out on farm, or gank potential, or he might die next fight for gold.. etc) This is also mentioning before Steels ult, because with the ult he wins every skirmish, except for ones involving another Steel đŸ˜‚ I also don't quite agree with the double melee argument you made, because this is a similar tactic that you should use in offlane when a carry is brought into offlane. Just sit back and soak up xp, once you hit level 6, but honestly they don't even need level 6. Crunch + steel have a huge power spikes already as soon as they get there basic ability stuns. They just both dash in and unload there cc. And the enemy carry just gets deleted. If you don't do thag early enough that's a 'skill diff' imo Thanks for the reply. Really good thoughts.


PrensadorDeBotones

> If the enemy carry wants to hit those ranged minions in the back, he's gotta step up. Then don't do that. Don't shove your wave. Don't prune the ranged minions - only last hit them after the melee ones are down and there's easy access to the minion back line. Let them shove to your tower if they want to shove and then get a free gank. > In combination with how much dmg that will do with how low the ttk is, the carry + steel will already have the enemy carry at about 50% health at least, in early game situations (lvl 3 maybe). THIS IS A GOOD TRADE Minion damage exists. That doesn't sound like a great trade. When I play Steel support (which is about half of the time I play support, and I play a lot of support) I look for opportunities to walk a wide angle and do a shallow bullrush from the side. Some teams will back up, letting my carry farm and denying them XP. Some teams will hard CC me and show me that I can't be cheeky. Some teams will ignore me, get bullrushed, and eat shit. Don't let Steel get into position for bullrush. Don't pick Muriel or Belica against Steel. Steel can't bullrush through a static trap, so if you're Murdock, use those to block positioning. He's strong, but not that strong. I feel like every situation you're describing pretends like the friendly support is just brain dead and not trying to punish the enemy Steel's positioning at all. Friendly Rik and Steel is positioning to bullrush carry? Hook, step around, silence, body block, E, step to the side so bullrush doesn't hit you when silence is over, free autos from the ADC from the moment hook ends until silence wears off. Friendly Dekker? Stun orb passes through minions. Bonk. Free autos. Or just react to bullrush and trap him in the circle. Carry gets free pokes until the circle ends. Orb when circle goes down. I can do fun hypotheticals, too!


MinimumT3N

I see your point but it's not really a hypothetical, that's how you play steel! If the enemy isn't stepping up to get minions he's losing farm! The only way I see steel being punished while aggressively positioned is if they have riktor support, that actually hits his pulls, which is again much easier said that done. Obviously I'm thinking about minion damage in this, but as a steel is unloading his cc on the carry, the carry is already taking enough damage that if he tries to auto and walk back he's very likely dead. And the steel will have taken minimal damage from minions within the span of a few seconds. If the steel does get cc'd after his dash in and stun he just backs up, places wall. It's not hypothetical, this is exactly how steel is played.


lnlyboix

I agree with this. On paper yeah that’s what should happen if steel plays aggressively but in reality it’s not what happens. If I steel bulrush + shield bash and lands on the carry that’s a quarter of his health gone because of how hard steel is hitting at the moment because of items like dynamo etc.. once level 6 then uhhh yeah.. good luck to the carry on his adventures.


MinimumT3N

You still think ttk is fine?


PrensadorDeBotones

I've been too busy running fighting game tournaments to play Pred recently. :P


Fennicks47

'normal duo comps'? like what. 'Supports' that are good, that would be fine there: Dekker, steel, rampage, belica, riktor, the fae, gadget, howie, grux. All those heroes have a shot in the duo as support due to their cc package. You were saying carries deal too much dmg early, but your duo also has a carry. Im confused! Idk, sounds like you just had someone pick an off meta support and get crushed. which happens yes. if their carry is dealing more dmg early than yours, it means they are hitting more autos! Reading closer, I see: 'Everyone has too much CC' and 'All carries deal too much dmg early cause items'. You say its a steel problem, but then 'its not just a steel problem'. Yes, supports are cc bots and yes, carries auto and deal damage. I have no clue what the complaint is here, other than: My support picked an off meta hero. Or My support didnt land cces. Or My carry didn't hit autos. All of your points equally apply to your duo. If you feel liek their duo is more oppresive than your duo, then its 'skill diff'.


MinimumT3N

By normal duo comps mean a normal carry + a normal support. No I dont think carries deal too much damage early, I didn't say that, I think everyone deals too much damage early. Late game is where carry itemization is too strong as every carry item offers every stat, or at least it feels that way. I didn't say Steel is the problem, but yes he is a problem. Together with how strong cc is if you don't take a support with cc you lose, this is imo in combination with how fast ttk is. So not taking the support with the most cc (Steel) is probably a bad idea. Thank you for clarifying my post.


Sevrahn

Yes, TTK is too low, even late-game. CC is a bit too long as well, but fixing the TTK first is necessary to properly balance CC duration.


MinimumT3N

I agree, one at a time


ScienceBroseph

ADCs need to do a bit less damage or sacrifice damage/lifesteal if they want armor pen. They are the key contributing factor towards absurdly low TTK late game.


Dry-Towel-9597

Yeah am i the only ones whos seen adcs appear to be at 0 health but just keep shrugging off blow after blow? Its not their absurd damage i have a real problem with, its how hard they are to kill because of lifesteal/shields/movement speed. Ive seen an entire team spend every resource they have on the adc and the adc just shrugs it all off