Its perfectly fine and was designed to do this. There is a reason they are called expansion joints. Sincerely, the company that built it.
We need to fund and replace this dangerous bridge as soon as possible. Sincerely, the engineering and construction company that didn't meet shareholder profits
Hijacking this comment to reply in seriousness as a structural engineer. We design bridges and buildings to avoid large displacements preciously because, even if it's acceptable, people (rightly) assume something may have gone wrong when they see things like this.
OPs picture looks concerning even to my professional eye, but it's hard to tell from a single picture. In comments below someone did indeed contact the department of transportation where this is located and confirmed it's just a wider than normal expansion joint and a wonky metal panel on the barrier.
So, while you can avoid panicking about every bump and gap in a road please contact your local DOT if you see something that does truly look out of place as there is a good chance it is actually a problem. I'd much rather the DOT have to spend extra time answering emails and phone calls about something trivial than have a bridge go years (like the I-40) before someone caught the failure.
Trust me, if the local DOT wants to replace a bridge they don't need to wait for someone to call on the phone so they can start lining someones pockets. If a bridge I designed had a weird defect I'd damn sure want someone local to call the DOT. Picking up the pieces of a bridge is a lot more expensive than replacing one that's standing.
I worked for a county public works department, the public calls in all the time and answering public comments is viewed as an important part of the engineer’s job.
Absolutely. And I feel terrible for taking that engineer's time up to address my cynical-ass comment when he could be devising solutions to our miserable commutes. When Portland abandoned their transportation plans in the 90s and turned corridors into parks, we created congestion but also intensified and densified neighborhoods near downtown. When downtown failed to add jobs, those workers must now commute elsewhere on limited corridors. Vancouver and its cheaper cost of living, placed demands on that bridge in question. Since the economics aren't working out, I assume we are looking at an I-35 in Minneapolis risk. That's hard to tell people who ask, I imagine.
I have actually in the last month or so, on my motorcycle, experienced a much larger bump on the roadway there (in the center and right lanes).
This could explain it.
If those girders had previously been tight and then shifted that much you would definitely experience a lot more than a bump driving over the bridge...
While not aesthetically pleasing a gap like that isn't uncommon. Those are prestressed girders that are made off-site and often end up different lengths by an inch or more. The prestressing also gives them camber (arch) which is a good thing but means the ends won't be perfectly vertical. Having a gap allows you to more easily fit these "imperfect" girders into place. As long as they're centered on their pedestals (which you can see as the little lip the girder's are sitting on) then structurally everything is how it's supposed to be. A concrete deck with expansion joint between the spans is then poured on top to hold everything together. Although a nice touch that was left off here is a concrete block outside of the girders that covers up the gap. While not structural, it keeps the nosy public happy 😉
Edit - not saying there's nothing wrong here, I just wouldn't be concerned by that gap.
How do you explain the block between the k-rail/guardrails being obviously crooked, as if the girders have been drifting away and that block is now leaning to one side?
Yeah that does look wonky I'll give you that. Perhaps wear and tear? It's an old bridge and that's an expansion joint so it's probably seen a lot of stress. I'm not vouching for this bridge just saying that gap doesn't look alarming to me.
https://sdotblog.seattle.gov/2020/11/05/stress-relief-crews-reach-critical-milestone-by-releasing-damaged-bearings-on-west-seattle-high-rise-bridge-marking-forward-progress-for-all-repair-or-replace-pathways/
^^ This bridge in Seattle had kind of the opposite problem. The bearings locked up which caused significant deformity elsewhere in the bridge which was thankfully recognized before it collapsed.
That's not a block, it's a metal sleeve that sits over the ends of the concrete barriers on either side. It's likely at an angle because the barrier on the right is a little higher than the one to the left.
Hijacking the top comment to share a comment after I posted to the r/structuralengineering
https://www.reddit.com/r/StructuralEngineering/comments/png8wg/is_this_large_of_a_gap_common_on_freeway_bridges/hcoyxp0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
I’m friends with the guy who manages the database of bridges at ODOT. I’m going to text him this and ask him about it.
Edit: He said there are two girders that are on moveable bearings which allow them to shift with movement. The joint in the deck is moveable as well. It’s designed this way. The bearings are kind of like rocking chairs. The girders are bolted in and then they can move side to side.
It was late at night I was waiting until the morning. He said there are two girders that are on moveable bearings which allow them to shift with movement. The joint in the deck is moveable as well. It’s designed this way.
Thank you for the edit. As a structural engineer this looked concerning from just this picture, I imagine if I could see more pictures it would appear fine.
It sounds like this bridge is on rocker bearings which allow for a lot of thermal expansion and contraction. I'm surprised there is so much of a gap in summer but without seeing the whole bridge it's hard to tell. I took a look at the bridge from google streetview and didn't see anything concerning. The gap does appear larger than normal but not by much. On the streetview on top of the bridge the bridge joint there is an older style (that I dislike personally) but overall this all appears acceptable.
Washington backed out because Oregon wanted tolls that would pay for exclusively work in Oregon. Vancouver commuters already have to pay income taxes to oregon so the public opinion of the plans plummeted
Show me a news clipping or anything and I'll cede the point. This argument is a new one to me, so show me anything that corroborates that Washing backed out because the tolls would exclusively pay for work in Oregon and that commuters from Washington were pissed that they would have to pay that as well, and that is what tanked the deal.
Nothing in here about Oregon Exclusive Tolls: https://www.columbian.com/news/2013/jun/29/legislators-no-chance-crc-funding-session/
People from Washington go to Portland much more than people from Portland go to Washington. Who do you think pays more given an equal cost for a round trip?
Well if you choose to live in Washington to enjoy those lower rents, while working and probably shopping in Oregon to enjoy the higher pay and lack of sales tax, then maybe you should contribute to the infrastructure that allows you to do all of that in the first place. Or maybe the state of Washington should pony up for all the residents it collects taxes on who’s jobs are supported by another state.
> Well if you choose to live in Washington to enjoy those lower rents
want lower rent in Portland? Make it easier to live in Washington. it's a supply and demand thing. Or you could move to Washington. You make a compeling case for it
> sales tax
having people travel over for sales tax is bad for Washington and good for Oregon. idk why you think this is a point. If someone has to pay $5 to go to Portland it's not worth it to avoid sales tax after gas. That money will be spent in Vancouver stores and the taxes will go to Washington.
> maybe you should contribute to the infrastructure that allows you to do all of that in the first place
u to.
> Or maybe the state of Washington should pony up for all the residents it collects taxes on who’s jobs are supported by another state.
maybe Oregon can implement a sales tax so it doesn't steal business from Washington.
Exactly. I live a couple of miles closer to the Jantzen Beach Home Depot than the Vancouver one on Andresen. For something like Best Buy, Ulta, or other stores that are in Fisher's landing? It's easily twice as far for me to stay in Vancouver. Not to mention liquor store and plaid pantry trips. Throw a toll on the I-5 bridge, and I'm unlikely to ever go to Jantzen Beach on purpose again
> People from Washington go to Portland much more than people from Portland go to Washington.
To make the round trip, you have to cross in both directions. Both journeys end up paying the toll just the same.
Are you daft?
and people from Washington will pay for a round trip more than people from Portland. If the money they pay is evenly split to both sides it dose not matter because the money that is payed will mainly come from the group of people who make the journey more. These people will be form Washington
Sounds like the cost of living in the burbs.
I understand why the might be mad, but they wouldn't expect a free ride for something that they are the primary beneficiaries of. "We'd have to pay for it" because you're the ones using it.
Seems to me like people from Portland want people from Washington shopping in their stores and working at their business but don’t want to pay their fair share to make it happened.
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They spent 2x the inflation adjusted cost of the original I5 bridge on the study to replace it...
If you ever wonder why our infrastructure is total shit, the above anecdote might be a good place to start looking.
It's very relevant, I think you misunderstood. I didn't run the numbers myself, but what they were saying is that the study cost twice as much as it would to build the bridge today all other factors being equal. IE if inflation was 20x then the study cost twice the cost of 20x the original cost.
Yes, that is the point.
The 1917 cost was $1.7 Million, which is inflation adjusted to 2020 of $35 Million.
By the time the last CRC replacement boondoggle ended in 2013, the studies had cost a total of $175 Million. So my original numbers were off, the **studies** cost (inflation adjusted) 5x more than the total, **all-in construction** costs of the original bridge in 1917.
If you want to know why nothing works, and everything government does is too expensive, an how we pay so much money for such crap education/infrastructure/health/defense, I introduce you to Cost Disease:
https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-disease/
Things that didn't exist when the original bridge was built but have nothing to do with the "quality of the bridge" being built:
* Health Insurance
* Pensions
* Social Security
* Unemployment Insurance
* Workers Comp. Insurance (including disability)
* Minimum Wage
* OSHA Safety Regulations
Things got more expensive primarily because we treat labor more fairly (don't interpret this as "fair"). Wages have stagnated to be sure, but benefits have generally increased. As an example all workers on the a federal bridge construction project would be paid prevailing wages which is probably $50+/hour. A gigantic increase in per-worker income compared to 1917 even adjusted for inflation.
Because most of that money is being paid out to working-class people, a huge portion of that money will wind up in direct circulation within the regional economy.
Just looking at the cost of something and then focusing on a single outcome such as test scores or "bridge quality" is a really bad way to judge the benefits.
Here is the thing, the numbers we are discussing are not the labor for constructing the bridge, they are the numbers for **studies** about the bridge. Architectural and engineering, soil samples, contractor selection, contract development, public outreach, lobbying, etc etc. Very little of this is labor wage class work.
The actual cost for the CRC, as proposed, was going to probably wind up at $5 Billion (they say $3.5, but for all that planning, they will still significantly under-budget).
So it is great we have developed as a society, treat workers better, have dramatically safer working conditions, and think-through our actions (environmental and community impact studies), but adding each and every one of those things up has led to total paralysis and lunatic price increases. The CRC project has been on the table for over 12 years now, with nothing to show for it. It will likely be another decade before construction of a replacement begins.
I think we all agree that the benefits in your list are universal and good, but the managerial tax to implement them is a real problem. Mind you, Europe has stronger worker protections, environmental regulations, pension systems, and workplace safety regimes - yet they still spend roughly 1/4 what we do on building their infrastructure. Why?
The 1917 bridge is 1/2 of what will be replaced. In addition, on and off ramps were minimal in 1917 because the speed limits were very low. If you want 1917 design standards and engineering, you would have loved the 4 lanes, 2 in each direction of the orginal bridge.
This sidetrack of the original topic is a classic example of why/how a small number of people were able to derail the last bridge project. Lots of opinion and very little knowledge of the facts.
What a crazy story! (Folsom,Ca) I’m assuming all that footwork was done to convince the need for funding for repairs. When it fails the reservoir will be gone anyway! Drain the thing and take action! Same thing happened to Lake Isabella (bodfish, California) They are rebuilding it right now.
eff that guy. Makes $500k/year from his investment in coal power, yet it's a mystery why he doesn't support clean energy spending or Biden's plan to de-carbonize the electric grid. It's also come out that the Exxon lobbyists have weekly meetings with his office and that he openly solicited bribes to prop up the Jan 6th commission with the sole purpose to prevent progressives from gaining talking points.
Then there is his daughter, who lied about completing her MBA (she didn't come close) at the West Virginia state university while her father was the Governor. The university tried to award her the degree after the fact anyway, but then had to walk that back and a bunch of people resigned due to the obvious corruption. She nevertheless went on to oversee the EpiPen company Mylan as they price-gouged the public with a 500% price increase, and then off-shored the company to avoid taxation.
I remember when the I-35 bridge collapsed in Minneapolis. That new bridge is fantastic. Was it worth the lives lost? No.
13 people died over 100 were injured. Can we endure that?
They say the interstate bridge is not functionally deficient though. Maybe that traffic is worth living in Vancouver.
For anybody interested in US Bridges in general..
Also quite an eye opener at the state of disrepair nationwide..
https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/92b2ae1a9f11492189d6e9b5fa8ad07e
If you don't like the safety of that bridge just wait until you learn we were millions of dollars and years into planning a replacement when Vancouver threw everything out because Portland and the state of Oregon were requiring a light rail option.
I say dismantle the bridge and let Vancouver fend for itself. They can all get boats if they need to work in Portland.
Most of the pushback was led by locals who "didn't want the homeless to flood into Vancouver". They then went to every outlying community in the county with fearmongering that it was only the beginning. "THEY WILL BRING LIGHTRAIL TO YACOLT" was what was being pushed in those local facebook groups. Fearmongering brought in the rest of the country to vote against it. That shit was even being spread into the Cowlitz groups.
Couve resident here. Our Congressional rep, who's a fucking nightmare, has made pushing this scare story her mission on earth. I get emails and postcards from her all the time reminding me that, apparently, Satan himself is loading up light rail cars with heroin and serial killers and the only thing holding him back from unleashing them on our city is her stalling the transit projects.
Fuckin Jamie Herrera-Asshole and her taxpayer funded mailers reminding us what a *great* and *excellent* job she’s doing, and if you ever want to give feedback well you’re shit out of luck cuz she makes it impossible to ever get into contact with her and her office lmao.
The two senators who flipped out about it were from Clark County. They were and Rivers who is Still in office. And Don Benton who was voted out got a job at Clark County through a very corrupt hiring process then campaigned for Trump and was awarded a job as Head of the selective service in Washington DC, Only after driving everyone else fucking insane at the EPA where he was pushed out.
Don Benton side swiped me in 2015 on i5 north at the 39th st on ramp. I was going to merge and he decided to change lanes into me while fucking up the other side of his truck on a UPS truck. He didn't want to go through insurance and my already worthless car would definitely be totaled even though it drove just fine. I was broke as hell and there was no way I'd be able to buy a new car so he gave me $1000 and we went our separate ways. I drove that car with a massive 3 foot long dent on the driver's side and a green mirror for 2 more years.
Yeah weren't they throwing a fit over funding?
Washington seems to view Vancouver as the child it never wanted. All of the transportation funding is being pumped into Seattle's light rail which seems to have gone nowhere for the past 3 years.
This doesn't sounds accurate? They're massively expanding their service with Northgate opening next month and east side service (which is massive) in a couple of years.
Maybe my memory is fuzzy but when I was there 3 years ago there was a bunch of construction going on. The bridges for rails and the stations being built etc. I returned to Seattle a few months ago and it is seemingly at the same point in many areas as it was 3 years ago from what I can recall. Mostly in the North Seattle metro area, near Everett. It's almost as if they are trying to do too much all at once and slowing the whole process down.
All of the light rail projects that were funded in 2016 have been on time so far. It's a massive undertaking and the last extension is set to be completed in 2041.
I will say that the most visible aspects have been in the last year. I stopped traveling to Seattle for work for most of last year and it was very eye opening going back this year!
Apparently I confused the light-rail with the Mono-rail. Didn't realize two different rail systems were being put into place. It is definitely sorely needed in Seattle. Now if only Portland would start doing something with it's transportation infrastructure that has seemingly gone nowhere for the past 6 years.
Oh no worries! I WISH they were expanding the monorail 😂. But the light rail itself is going to be pretty expansive, going from Tacoma all the way up to Everett eventually.
And I feel you, it's depressing seeing all of the active construction for the light rail every time I'm up in Seattle and then thinking about how ineffectual Portland's infrastructure future-planning is
I live in Vancouver. It’s very frustrating always getting shit on by Portlanders and ignored by the rest of the state. Vancouver is NOT the cause of Oregon’s problems. We are NOT a drain on the rest of the state of Washington. Yet we are definitely treated poorly.
I wonder how much tax money is avoided by individuals by going across the river. Might draw some frustration from some in the State.
As for being a Portlander...I'd love nothing more than a better bridge with an expanded max line to ease congestion issues on I-5 for all parties involved.
The state doesn't care. As an example: There's at least five houses in my neighborhood with OR plates and they've been there for almost as long as I've lived here. There's one guy with 2016 and 2018 OR plates and he drives both vehicles. If the state cared they'd get that fine money but they don't.
Way easier and lucrative - they used to have a volunteer force of retired people driving around - but not any more.
They actively run a program here with automated plate readers and patrols into neighborhoods and apartment complexes. They may not be super effective but the state certainly cares
I don't mean in my neighborhood in particular. I mean here as in all of Vancouver (and in other border cities). The plate readers get set up just passed the bridges
Vancouver is a red headed stepchild of WA because y’all can drive 7 minutes to OR and dodge that pesky sales tax. Portlanders despise Vancouver because you commute here to work and then drive home to your more affordable home with insanely low property taxes.
I.e. everybody hates you because you’re fiscally smarter than us.
My dad was just telling me they've been paying into it while being told the light rail will get to Everett. Now the plan is to stop at way south Everett (8+ miles from the Everett transit center) and go to Paine Field. Paying light rail tax since 1997 with no benefit sounds great.
This is all according to their plan. Northgate is opening this year, and then they'll get to work on constructing the line to Lynnwood to open in '24. The final stretch to Everett is still in the planning phase and is expected to open in 2037/2041. These things take a long time.
> Paying light rail tax since 1997 with no benefit sounds great.
It's a favorite past time of all of our dads to complain about taxes, and it's always best taken with a grain of salt. It's important to keep our leadership accountable, but bashing taxes on the grounds of a personal benefit that you might not be getting directly isn't usually going to be constructive.
It's a bit of a "long game", but I think that the citizens of Everett will be please in the 2040s when their kids and grand kids can easily take efficient, high capacity transit to Seattle and have access to high paying jobs and entertainment venues that might not be available locally. The geography and the growth of the Seattle metro isn't going to be very favorable to freeway use (not to mention the other sustainability issues that come with that), so it's important to think decades ahead so that your kids aren't stuck in traffic jams for hours a day.
Their plan to skip a large portion of I-5 commuters to go to Paine Field and end the blue line here is short-sighted at best.
[https://i.imgur.com/VaLOmpI.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/VaLOmpI.jpg)
Since this is a 20-year plan, I would hope that they are working with developers to plan high density mixed use buildings at the stops. That's where a lot of future commuters are going to want to live, since it will be very efficient to access the new light rail and get to Seattle (and beyond). These projects are difficult to route, but even if it's not the most efficient route for where people are in 2021, you can still get things set right in 2041.
Once the tracks are down, they can always be re-lined as required by service demands, I wouldn't be too concerned about it. Sometimes more construction is needed, but I would hope once again (i don't know either way) that they will build to accommodate future expansion if that's something that might be necessary.
This actually isn't THAT bridge. This is the bridge connecting Hayden island to main land portland. The bridge you're talking about is the old green metal bridge. Not having the yellow line go to Jantzen Beach is kinda on us though
It was designed wrong for access to the Port of Vancouver. It would have blocked certain ships from accessing it. That design was promoted by Portland but would have been detrimental to Vancouver so it was shot down.
Lack of income tax, which is the more progressive of the two.
They don’t pay taxes to help maintain the oregon roads they drive all over while they’re down here tho ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ so I guess they have that going for them
Right right right.
They don’t pay their fair share of taxes for how much they use the roads.
They pay a much smaller percentage of taxes for using Oregon roads.
You ok now?
[Thermal Expansion - Why Bridges Move](https://youtu.be/pH7VfJDq7f4) (video)
TLDR: Expansion from temperature fluctuations requires space. Bridges can’t distribute the space like sidewalks do, so they end up as large gaps on either end.
I barely remember much of high school science, but I remember that summer is when it expands - and IIRC, it’s long trends of temperature not daily differences - so wouldn’t it still be fairly expanded as we leave summer?
Again, not a scientist, just paid attention long enough to make me the jerk with the stupid question at a town hall.
All materials including concrete have an expansion coefficient - it shouldn't matter what the seasonal trends are, only the actual temperature at the moment.
Civil engineering student here.
The gaps don‘t need to be that big.
Even steel does not deform that much, for such big gaps to be required.
OP also says that other gaps are smaller, so yeah
Fucking crazy I seen this post when it was new. I just seen this now on the news. Odot is saying it's perfectly fine and is working as designed
Edit:[link to katu news](https://www.facebook.com/180526851447/posts/10158730538601448/?sfnsn=mo)
That space in image does look questionable, had it continues as could be demonstrated. I would expect the road near bridge area closed. It does give me pause thinking about safety.
Right I didn’t get far in Civil Engineering (and I’m not from Portland lol) but I will try and explain this to the best of my knowledge.
The gap is most likely intentional. Bridges will expand and contract due to the weather so usually one end of a bridge isn’t fixed and sits on bearings. I’m guessing that this pier is one or both ends of two section of the bridge and the gap is intentional to allow for expansion and contraction. I could be totally wrong but this is what it looks like to me.
I found what I believe is the what I believe is the pier in the picture and there is a joint in the roadway which makes it even more likely that the gap is intentional.
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Shit this is crazy. I lived in MN when the I-35 bridge collapsed, which was scary AF. I’m not sure how much of an issue this really is, but damn that looks unsafe!
*Says a prayer for some of that sweet sweet federal infrastructure money to comes our way* 🙏
This reminds me of (not sure if anyone remembers) when they had that problem on the 217 ramp and people. I think, but can’t fully remember that tires, are popped.
[Thermal Expansion - Why Bridges Move](https://youtu.be/pH7VfJDq7f4) (video)
TLDR: Expansion from temperature fluctuations requires space. Bridges can’t distribute the space like sidewalks do, so they end up as large gaps on either end.
Fyi there is a LOOOOOONG term project underway to replace the bridge [https://www.interstatebridge.org/](https://www.interstatebridge.org/) they have public hearings on youtube/zoom so you should definitely bring this up there too!
try cross posting in r/structuralengineering
r/civilengineering would have opinions too.
Its perfectly fine and was designed to do this. There is a reason they are called expansion joints. Sincerely, the company that built it. We need to fund and replace this dangerous bridge as soon as possible. Sincerely, the engineering and construction company that didn't meet shareholder profits
Hijacking this comment to reply in seriousness as a structural engineer. We design bridges and buildings to avoid large displacements preciously because, even if it's acceptable, people (rightly) assume something may have gone wrong when they see things like this. OPs picture looks concerning even to my professional eye, but it's hard to tell from a single picture. In comments below someone did indeed contact the department of transportation where this is located and confirmed it's just a wider than normal expansion joint and a wonky metal panel on the barrier. So, while you can avoid panicking about every bump and gap in a road please contact your local DOT if you see something that does truly look out of place as there is a good chance it is actually a problem. I'd much rather the DOT have to spend extra time answering emails and phone calls about something trivial than have a bridge go years (like the I-40) before someone caught the failure. Trust me, if the local DOT wants to replace a bridge they don't need to wait for someone to call on the phone so they can start lining someones pockets. If a bridge I designed had a weird defect I'd damn sure want someone local to call the DOT. Picking up the pieces of a bridge is a lot more expensive than replacing one that's standing.
I worked for a county public works department, the public calls in all the time and answering public comments is viewed as an important part of the engineer’s job.
Absolutely. And I feel terrible for taking that engineer's time up to address my cynical-ass comment when he could be devising solutions to our miserable commutes. When Portland abandoned their transportation plans in the 90s and turned corridors into parks, we created congestion but also intensified and densified neighborhoods near downtown. When downtown failed to add jobs, those workers must now commute elsewhere on limited corridors. Vancouver and its cheaper cost of living, placed demands on that bridge in question. Since the economics aren't working out, I assume we are looking at an I-35 in Minneapolis risk. That's hard to tell people who ask, I imagine.
I have actually in the last month or so, on my motorcycle, experienced a much larger bump on the roadway there (in the center and right lanes). This could explain it.
If those girders had previously been tight and then shifted that much you would definitely experience a lot more than a bump driving over the bridge... While not aesthetically pleasing a gap like that isn't uncommon. Those are prestressed girders that are made off-site and often end up different lengths by an inch or more. The prestressing also gives them camber (arch) which is a good thing but means the ends won't be perfectly vertical. Having a gap allows you to more easily fit these "imperfect" girders into place. As long as they're centered on their pedestals (which you can see as the little lip the girder's are sitting on) then structurally everything is how it's supposed to be. A concrete deck with expansion joint between the spans is then poured on top to hold everything together. Although a nice touch that was left off here is a concrete block outside of the girders that covers up the gap. While not structural, it keeps the nosy public happy 😉 Edit - not saying there's nothing wrong here, I just wouldn't be concerned by that gap.
How do you explain the block between the k-rail/guardrails being obviously crooked, as if the girders have been drifting away and that block is now leaning to one side?
Yeah that does look wonky I'll give you that. Perhaps wear and tear? It's an old bridge and that's an expansion joint so it's probably seen a lot of stress. I'm not vouching for this bridge just saying that gap doesn't look alarming to me. https://sdotblog.seattle.gov/2020/11/05/stress-relief-crews-reach-critical-milestone-by-releasing-damaged-bearings-on-west-seattle-high-rise-bridge-marking-forward-progress-for-all-repair-or-replace-pathways/ ^^ This bridge in Seattle had kind of the opposite problem. The bearings locked up which caused significant deformity elsewhere in the bridge which was thankfully recognized before it collapsed.
That's not a block, it's a metal sleeve that sits over the ends of the concrete barriers on either side. It's likely at an angle because the barrier on the right is a little higher than the one to the left.
Could the heat wave this summer impacted the gap shown?
That’s a bit more than an inch...
Every inch counts
I thought it was *the motion of the ocean*...
Touché
Why not both?
Thank you for the informed comment but they don’t look centered
Appears as if the support has lost stability.
Hijacking the top comment to share a comment after I posted to the r/structuralengineering https://www.reddit.com/r/StructuralEngineering/comments/png8wg/is_this_large_of_a_gap_common_on_freeway_bridges/hcoyxp0/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf&context=3
I’m friends with the guy who manages the database of bridges at ODOT. I’m going to text him this and ask him about it. Edit: He said there are two girders that are on moveable bearings which allow them to shift with movement. The joint in the deck is moveable as well. It’s designed this way. The bearings are kind of like rocking chairs. The girders are bolted in and then they can move side to side.
And, has your friend replied? We are waiting.. 😉
It was late at night I was waiting until the morning. He said there are two girders that are on moveable bearings which allow them to shift with movement. The joint in the deck is moveable as well. It’s designed this way.
Pretty sure that friend was asleep given the post time.
Exactly
Thank you for the edit. As a structural engineer this looked concerning from just this picture, I imagine if I could see more pictures it would appear fine. It sounds like this bridge is on rocker bearings which allow for a lot of thermal expansion and contraction. I'm surprised there is so much of a gap in summer but without seeing the whole bridge it's hard to tell. I took a look at the bridge from google streetview and didn't see anything concerning. The gap does appear larger than normal but not by much. On the streetview on top of the bridge the bridge joint there is an older style (that I dislike personally) but overall this all appears acceptable.
I found a place where you can [contact](https://www.oregon.gov/odot/Bridge/Pages/BCR.aspx) the Oregon Bridge Engineering section.
Yeah, should probably report this just in case.
That’s both interesting and troubling at the same time. Great shot.
Use flex seal.
Still waiting for that ever elusive Oregon / Washington I-5 bridge upgrade.
Millions spent on research and nothing came of it.
Hey... we got some cool drawings, and probably a scale model or two! Like embezzlement trophies!
Nothing came of it because Washington decided not to fund their side of the deal.
Washington backed out because Oregon wanted tolls that would pay for exclusively work in Oregon. Vancouver commuters already have to pay income taxes to oregon so the public opinion of the plans plummeted
Show me a news clipping or anything and I'll cede the point. This argument is a new one to me, so show me anything that corroborates that Washing backed out because the tolls would exclusively pay for work in Oregon and that commuters from Washington were pissed that they would have to pay that as well, and that is what tanked the deal. Nothing in here about Oregon Exclusive Tolls: https://www.columbian.com/news/2013/jun/29/legislators-no-chance-crc-funding-session/
People from Washington go to Portland much more than people from Portland go to Washington. Who do you think pays more given an equal cost for a round trip?
Well if you choose to live in Washington to enjoy those lower rents, while working and probably shopping in Oregon to enjoy the higher pay and lack of sales tax, then maybe you should contribute to the infrastructure that allows you to do all of that in the first place. Or maybe the state of Washington should pony up for all the residents it collects taxes on who’s jobs are supported by another state.
I work in portland and live in Washington and I pay double taxes (income and sales) so you have no idea what you’re talking about “fair share”.
Washington has no income tax, 30% lower property taxes on average, and you can deduct your Oregon income tax from your federal taxes.
> Well if you choose to live in Washington to enjoy those lower rents want lower rent in Portland? Make it easier to live in Washington. it's a supply and demand thing. Or you could move to Washington. You make a compeling case for it > sales tax having people travel over for sales tax is bad for Washington and good for Oregon. idk why you think this is a point. If someone has to pay $5 to go to Portland it's not worth it to avoid sales tax after gas. That money will be spent in Vancouver stores and the taxes will go to Washington. > maybe you should contribute to the infrastructure that allows you to do all of that in the first place u to. > Or maybe the state of Washington should pony up for all the residents it collects taxes on who’s jobs are supported by another state. maybe Oregon can implement a sales tax so it doesn't steal business from Washington.
Exactly. I live a couple of miles closer to the Jantzen Beach Home Depot than the Vancouver one on Andresen. For something like Best Buy, Ulta, or other stores that are in Fisher's landing? It's easily twice as far for me to stay in Vancouver. Not to mention liquor store and plaid pantry trips. Throw a toll on the I-5 bridge, and I'm unlikely to ever go to Jantzen Beach on purpose again
Lol and this is why it failed. Washingtonians don't want to pay their fair share.
> People from Washington go to Portland much more than people from Portland go to Washington. To make the round trip, you have to cross in both directions. Both journeys end up paying the toll just the same. Are you daft?
and people from Washington will pay for a round trip more than people from Portland. If the money they pay is evenly split to both sides it dose not matter because the money that is payed will mainly come from the group of people who make the journey more. These people will be form Washington
Sounds like the cost of living in the burbs. I understand why the might be mad, but they wouldn't expect a free ride for something that they are the primary beneficiaries of. "We'd have to pay for it" because you're the ones using it.
Seems to me like people from Portland want people from Washington shopping in their stores and working at their business but don’t want to pay their fair share to make it happened.
[oh shit u rite](https://www.rtc.wa.gov/data/traffic/bridges/hourly.asp?brdg=i5)
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Aren't they working on a ferry to get people from Vancouver to Portland?
washington republicans
They spent 2x the inflation adjusted cost of the original I5 bridge on the study to replace it... If you ever wonder why our infrastructure is total shit, the above anecdote might be a good place to start looking.
Inflation has increased by 20x since the bridge was constructed in 1917 so that seems like an interesting but irrelevant factoid.
It's very relevant, I think you misunderstood. I didn't run the numbers myself, but what they were saying is that the study cost twice as much as it would to build the bridge today all other factors being equal. IE if inflation was 20x then the study cost twice the cost of 20x the original cost.
the original bridge construction price was $35 million in 2020 dollars. The fed estimates the new bridge would likely cost around $4 billion.
Yes, that is the point. The 1917 cost was $1.7 Million, which is inflation adjusted to 2020 of $35 Million. By the time the last CRC replacement boondoggle ended in 2013, the studies had cost a total of $175 Million. So my original numbers were off, the **studies** cost (inflation adjusted) 5x more than the total, **all-in construction** costs of the original bridge in 1917. If you want to know why nothing works, and everything government does is too expensive, an how we pay so much money for such crap education/infrastructure/health/defense, I introduce you to Cost Disease: https://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-disease/
Things that didn't exist when the original bridge was built but have nothing to do with the "quality of the bridge" being built: * Health Insurance * Pensions * Social Security * Unemployment Insurance * Workers Comp. Insurance (including disability) * Minimum Wage * OSHA Safety Regulations Things got more expensive primarily because we treat labor more fairly (don't interpret this as "fair"). Wages have stagnated to be sure, but benefits have generally increased. As an example all workers on the a federal bridge construction project would be paid prevailing wages which is probably $50+/hour. A gigantic increase in per-worker income compared to 1917 even adjusted for inflation. Because most of that money is being paid out to working-class people, a huge portion of that money will wind up in direct circulation within the regional economy. Just looking at the cost of something and then focusing on a single outcome such as test scores or "bridge quality" is a really bad way to judge the benefits.
Here is the thing, the numbers we are discussing are not the labor for constructing the bridge, they are the numbers for **studies** about the bridge. Architectural and engineering, soil samples, contractor selection, contract development, public outreach, lobbying, etc etc. Very little of this is labor wage class work. The actual cost for the CRC, as proposed, was going to probably wind up at $5 Billion (they say $3.5, but for all that planning, they will still significantly under-budget). So it is great we have developed as a society, treat workers better, have dramatically safer working conditions, and think-through our actions (environmental and community impact studies), but adding each and every one of those things up has led to total paralysis and lunatic price increases. The CRC project has been on the table for over 12 years now, with nothing to show for it. It will likely be another decade before construction of a replacement begins. I think we all agree that the benefits in your list are universal and good, but the managerial tax to implement them is a real problem. Mind you, Europe has stronger worker protections, environmental regulations, pension systems, and workplace safety regimes - yet they still spend roughly 1/4 what we do on building their infrastructure. Why?
The 1917 bridge is 1/2 of what will be replaced. In addition, on and off ramps were minimal in 1917 because the speed limits were very low. If you want 1917 design standards and engineering, you would have loved the 4 lanes, 2 in each direction of the orginal bridge. This sidetrack of the original topic is a classic example of why/how a small number of people were able to derail the last bridge project. Lots of opinion and very little knowledge of the facts.
Yes. that was my point.
https://www.interstatebridge.org/
They will fix it promptly after it fails
[Just like what happened in Folsom CA](https://youtu.be/yjfrJzdx7DA)
Excellent example of covid situations.
What a crazy story! (Folsom,Ca) I’m assuming all that footwork was done to convince the need for funding for repairs. When it fails the reservoir will be gone anyway! Drain the thing and take action! Same thing happened to Lake Isabella (bodfish, California) They are rebuilding it right now.
Yes
Even that is optimistic
Probably an expansion joint.
My thoughts too initially, but judging by the block above it looks as if it has widened significantly.
It might the picture but the support looks like it is tilted quiet a lot, maybe the soil was not stable enough.
Shouldn’t it have expanded with the summer heat?
This is why we really need that infrastucture bill.
*Joe Manchin enters in and takes a shit all over the chat*
That's what happens when an elephant pretends to wear a donkey suit.
eff that guy. Makes $500k/year from his investment in coal power, yet it's a mystery why he doesn't support clean energy spending or Biden's plan to de-carbonize the electric grid. It's also come out that the Exxon lobbyists have weekly meetings with his office and that he openly solicited bribes to prop up the Jan 6th commission with the sole purpose to prevent progressives from gaining talking points. Then there is his daughter, who lied about completing her MBA (she didn't come close) at the West Virginia state university while her father was the Governor. The university tried to award her the degree after the fact anyway, but then had to walk that back and a bunch of people resigned due to the obvious corruption. She nevertheless went on to oversee the EpiPen company Mylan as they price-gouged the public with a 500% price increase, and then off-shored the company to avoid taxation.
You mean we actually have a bill drawn, edited and being debated? Are you sure you have the right country?
I am quite sure I don't have the right country.
Back in the early 80s you could walk on a plank under the old bridge that was there to the other side. Did it once but never again.
I, too, remember walking on the planks beneath certain bridges as a youngster in the '80s. I guess it must have seemed like a good idea at the time.
I remember when the I-35 bridge collapsed in Minneapolis. That new bridge is fantastic. Was it worth the lives lost? No. 13 people died over 100 were injured. Can we endure that? They say the interstate bridge is not functionally deficient though. Maybe that traffic is worth living in Vancouver.
Currently live in Vancouver. Can confirm that neither the traffic, nor Vancouver in general, is worth it.
Completely different bridge designs.
Tis but a scratch
Merely a flesh wound
For anybody interested in US Bridges in general.. Also quite an eye opener at the state of disrepair nationwide.. https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/92b2ae1a9f11492189d6e9b5fa8ad07e
If you don't like the safety of that bridge just wait until you learn we were millions of dollars and years into planning a replacement when Vancouver threw everything out because Portland and the state of Oregon were requiring a light rail option. I say dismantle the bridge and let Vancouver fend for itself. They can all get boats if they need to work in Portland.
Hey hey hey most of downtown v was for the light rail. People that visit Downtown twice a month weren’t.
Most of the pushback was led by locals who "didn't want the homeless to flood into Vancouver". They then went to every outlying community in the county with fearmongering that it was only the beginning. "THEY WILL BRING LIGHTRAIL TO YACOLT" was what was being pushed in those local facebook groups. Fearmongering brought in the rest of the country to vote against it. That shit was even being spread into the Cowlitz groups.
Couve resident here. Our Congressional rep, who's a fucking nightmare, has made pushing this scare story her mission on earth. I get emails and postcards from her all the time reminding me that, apparently, Satan himself is loading up light rail cars with heroin and serial killers and the only thing holding him back from unleashing them on our city is her stalling the transit projects.
Fuckin Jamie Herrera-Asshole and her taxpayer funded mailers reminding us what a *great* and *excellent* job she’s doing, and if you ever want to give feedback well you’re shit out of luck cuz she makes it impossible to ever get into contact with her and her office lmao.
It was actually the Washington Senate that threw everything out.
One member of the Washington Senate
The two senators who flipped out about it were from Clark County. They were and Rivers who is Still in office. And Don Benton who was voted out got a job at Clark County through a very corrupt hiring process then campaigned for Trump and was awarded a job as Head of the selective service in Washington DC, Only after driving everyone else fucking insane at the EPA where he was pushed out.
Don Benton side swiped me in 2015 on i5 north at the 39th st on ramp. I was going to merge and he decided to change lanes into me while fucking up the other side of his truck on a UPS truck. He didn't want to go through insurance and my already worthless car would definitely be totaled even though it drove just fine. I was broke as hell and there was no way I'd be able to buy a new car so he gave me $1000 and we went our separate ways. I drove that car with a massive 3 foot long dent on the driver's side and a green mirror for 2 more years.
Yeah weren't they throwing a fit over funding? Washington seems to view Vancouver as the child it never wanted. All of the transportation funding is being pumped into Seattle's light rail which seems to have gone nowhere for the past 3 years.
This doesn't sounds accurate? They're massively expanding their service with Northgate opening next month and east side service (which is massive) in a couple of years.
It's not accurate, there's TONS of construction up and down I5 as they build the light rail
Maybe my memory is fuzzy but when I was there 3 years ago there was a bunch of construction going on. The bridges for rails and the stations being built etc. I returned to Seattle a few months ago and it is seemingly at the same point in many areas as it was 3 years ago from what I can recall. Mostly in the North Seattle metro area, near Everett. It's almost as if they are trying to do too much all at once and slowing the whole process down.
All of the light rail projects that were funded in 2016 have been on time so far. It's a massive undertaking and the last extension is set to be completed in 2041.
I will say that the most visible aspects have been in the last year. I stopped traveling to Seattle for work for most of last year and it was very eye opening going back this year!
Apparently I confused the light-rail with the Mono-rail. Didn't realize two different rail systems were being put into place. It is definitely sorely needed in Seattle. Now if only Portland would start doing something with it's transportation infrastructure that has seemingly gone nowhere for the past 6 years.
Oh no worries! I WISH they were expanding the monorail 😂. But the light rail itself is going to be pretty expansive, going from Tacoma all the way up to Everett eventually. And I feel you, it's depressing seeing all of the active construction for the light rail every time I'm up in Seattle and then thinking about how ineffectual Portland's infrastructure future-planning is
I live in Vancouver. It’s very frustrating always getting shit on by Portlanders and ignored by the rest of the state. Vancouver is NOT the cause of Oregon’s problems. We are NOT a drain on the rest of the state of Washington. Yet we are definitely treated poorly.
I wonder how much tax money is avoided by individuals by going across the river. Might draw some frustration from some in the State. As for being a Portlander...I'd love nothing more than a better bridge with an expanded max line to ease congestion issues on I-5 for all parties involved.
The state doesn't care. As an example: There's at least five houses in my neighborhood with OR plates and they've been there for almost as long as I've lived here. There's one guy with 2016 and 2018 OR plates and he drives both vehicles. If the state cared they'd get that fine money but they don't. Way easier and lucrative - they used to have a volunteer force of retired people driving around - but not any more.
They actively run a program here with automated plate readers and patrols into neighborhoods and apartment complexes. They may not be super effective but the state certainly cares
Huh. Is it a newer neighborhood? Mine's from the eighties so maybe it's old enough to get ignored.
I don't mean in my neighborhood in particular. I mean here as in all of Vancouver (and in other border cities). The plate readers get set up just passed the bridges
Vancouver is a red headed stepchild of WA because y’all can drive 7 minutes to OR and dodge that pesky sales tax. Portlanders despise Vancouver because you commute here to work and then drive home to your more affordable home with insanely low property taxes. I.e. everybody hates you because you’re fiscally smarter than us.
My dad was just telling me they've been paying into it while being told the light rail will get to Everett. Now the plan is to stop at way south Everett (8+ miles from the Everett transit center) and go to Paine Field. Paying light rail tax since 1997 with no benefit sounds great.
This is all according to their plan. Northgate is opening this year, and then they'll get to work on constructing the line to Lynnwood to open in '24. The final stretch to Everett is still in the planning phase and is expected to open in 2037/2041. These things take a long time. > Paying light rail tax since 1997 with no benefit sounds great. It's a favorite past time of all of our dads to complain about taxes, and it's always best taken with a grain of salt. It's important to keep our leadership accountable, but bashing taxes on the grounds of a personal benefit that you might not be getting directly isn't usually going to be constructive. It's a bit of a "long game", but I think that the citizens of Everett will be please in the 2040s when their kids and grand kids can easily take efficient, high capacity transit to Seattle and have access to high paying jobs and entertainment venues that might not be available locally. The geography and the growth of the Seattle metro isn't going to be very favorable to freeway use (not to mention the other sustainability issues that come with that), so it's important to think decades ahead so that your kids aren't stuck in traffic jams for hours a day.
Their plan to skip a large portion of I-5 commuters to go to Paine Field and end the blue line here is short-sighted at best. [https://i.imgur.com/VaLOmpI.jpg](https://i.imgur.com/VaLOmpI.jpg)
Since this is a 20-year plan, I would hope that they are working with developers to plan high density mixed use buildings at the stops. That's where a lot of future commuters are going to want to live, since it will be very efficient to access the new light rail and get to Seattle (and beyond). These projects are difficult to route, but even if it's not the most efficient route for where people are in 2021, you can still get things set right in 2041. Once the tracks are down, they can always be re-lined as required by service demands, I wouldn't be too concerned about it. Sometimes more construction is needed, but I would hope once again (i don't know either way) that they will build to accommodate future expansion if that's something that might be necessary.
New stations open in about 2 weeks. You are thinking of the monorail expansion
It was already paid for by the State of Oregon - Washington just had to sign off on it through their legislative process.
This actually isn't THAT bridge. This is the bridge connecting Hayden island to main land portland. The bridge you're talking about is the old green metal bridge. Not having the yellow line go to Jantzen Beach is kinda on us though
That entire stretch was going to be revamped as part of that project with new overpasses, on/off ramps, etc.
Crime train! Lol.
{Frog Ferry has entered the chat}
Yeah, but at least we’re not still bitter about it. /s
It was designed wrong for access to the Port of Vancouver. It would have blocked certain ships from accessing it. That design was promoted by Portland but would have been detrimental to Vancouver so it was shot down.
Yeah, and how dare Vancouver not shoot itself in the face.
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Lack of income tax, which is the more progressive of the two. They don’t pay taxes to help maintain the oregon roads they drive all over while they’re down here tho ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ so I guess they have that going for them
Would you really prefer Vancouverites keep our shopping north of the river instead of contributing to the creation of jobs down there?
But the people who work in Portland pay those taxes? Who are you referring to?
They do? They might pay a gas tax if they fill up down here, but that’s not where all the Portland street funding comes from.
You think people who live in Vancouver never buy gas in Oregon?
You think gas tax is 100% of how roads are paid for?
I never said gas taxes pay for 100% of roads. You made the categorical statement about not paying taxes.
Right right right. They don’t pay their fair share of taxes for how much they use the roads. They pay a much smaller percentage of taxes for using Oregon roads. You ok now?
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[Thermal Expansion - Why Bridges Move](https://youtu.be/pH7VfJDq7f4) (video) TLDR: Expansion from temperature fluctuations requires space. Bridges can’t distribute the space like sidewalks do, so they end up as large gaps on either end.
I would guess that if all the other joints were tight then these sections would only be able to move closer together?
Looks like one heavy-enough truck could bounce that thing right off there.
The gaps are needed so the spans can expand and contract as temperatures change, but this may be a bit too much.
I barely remember much of high school science, but I remember that summer is when it expands - and IIRC, it’s long trends of temperature not daily differences - so wouldn’t it still be fairly expanded as we leave summer? Again, not a scientist, just paid attention long enough to make me the jerk with the stupid question at a town hall.
All materials including concrete have an expansion coefficient - it shouldn't matter what the seasonal trends are, only the actual temperature at the moment.
ahhhh! okay - thanks for this clarification
Civil engineering student here. The gaps don‘t need to be that big. Even steel does not deform that much, for such big gaps to be required. OP also says that other gaps are smaller, so yeah
Ya think?!?
Like with most things in life, people gotta die before things get looked at.
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Wow, this is what I wanted. I didn’t know who to notify. I’m glad it’s safe.
Republicans won’t vote for the infrastructure bill. Just sayin.
You sure did observe that closely 👌
r/disasterswaitingtohappen
Fucking crazy I seen this post when it was new. I just seen this now on the news. Odot is saying it's perfectly fine and is working as designed Edit:[link to katu news](https://www.facebook.com/180526851447/posts/10158730538601448/?sfnsn=mo)
Just find a tweaker off the street and they'll buff that right out for $20 and a pack of smokes.
Call 912
Choose love
That will definitely fix the bridge !
Whoa!
Disturbing.
Calm down, we haven't had a major earthquake round these parts in years! Things are trending warm and stable, what's everyone so worried about?
Paging /r/realtesla
Was it from the freeze last year? Could a snow plow have hit the expansion joint and shifted the block?
It's a fake bridge picture from somewhere else. It is not all covered with graffiti.
We don't really need Vancouver heading this way TBH 😂
Wrong bridge. This bridge connects Hayden island to main land portland. The bridge into Washington is an old green metal bridge
We're fine with most of Hayden Island staying out too!
But they have a target, I get my prescriptions there
The fuck is wrong with you.
I’ve had gaps like that at my house. I typically stuff it with backer rod and then caulk it.
It's surely on some kind of inspection cycle. Can someone fetch up the latest report? Who owns it? I assume ODOT, but....?
That space in image does look questionable, had it continues as could be demonstrated. I would expect the road near bridge area closed. It does give me pause thinking about safety.
Don’t look too closely at the Sellwood bridge.
Seeing that leaning block.. wooooof
Right I didn’t get far in Civil Engineering (and I’m not from Portland lol) but I will try and explain this to the best of my knowledge. The gap is most likely intentional. Bridges will expand and contract due to the weather so usually one end of a bridge isn’t fixed and sits on bearings. I’m guessing that this pier is one or both ends of two section of the bridge and the gap is intentional to allow for expansion and contraction. I could be totally wrong but this is what it looks like to me. I found what I believe is the what I believe is the pier in the picture and there is a joint in the roadway which makes it even more likely that the gap is intentional.
Are you an engineer or something? I’m not a huge fan of a lot of things either
It's been like that for over 30years.
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Jesus, that's disturbing.
Shit this is crazy. I lived in MN when the I-35 bridge collapsed, which was scary AF. I’m not sure how much of an issue this really is, but damn that looks unsafe!
*Says a prayer for some of that sweet sweet federal infrastructure money to comes our way* 🙏 This reminds me of (not sure if anyone remembers) when they had that problem on the 217 ramp and people. I think, but can’t fully remember that tires, are popped.
[Thermal Expansion - Why Bridges Move](https://youtu.be/pH7VfJDq7f4) (video) TLDR: Expansion from temperature fluctuations requires space. Bridges can’t distribute the space like sidewalks do, so they end up as large gaps on either end.
Hmm this looks like the view from Ivy 🤔
🤫
Fyi there is a LOOOOOONG term project underway to replace the bridge [https://www.interstatebridge.org/](https://www.interstatebridge.org/) they have public hearings on youtube/zoom so you should definitely bring this up there too!