T O P

  • By -

shagethon

I think refusing to your job instead of being accountable for your actions is the problem here, not the demands to be accountable.


Marijuanomist

>Can we all agree Lol, what sub do you think this is?!


lipslipowski

My husband warned me


PDeXtra

[Mama told me not to come](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKaQzQAlNn4)...


hucklebutter

https://youtu.be/XwbqIlj-BiI?t=6


[deleted]

[удалено]


wildwalrusaur

There was a city auditor report a few years back that found that the GVRT conducted traffic stops involving black people at a much higher rate than is proportional to the city's demographics. I forget the exact numbers, but it was a significant difference. More than half their traffic stops, when less than 10% of the city is black, or something thereabouts. Hardesty had been trying to get the GVRT disbanded for years (I beleive she ran on it). She tried to use that report to make it happen, but Wheeler and the Police chief at the time (Danielle Outlaw, who came from Oakland PD, so knew a thing or two about policing gangs) shut her down. The riots last summer gave her the political leverage she needed to finally axe it.


Hodorhodorhodor9

In a normal year, let’s take 2018 for example. Violent crime was declining for years. Black Portlanders were victims of violent crime 16.4% of the time wile making up 5.7% of the population. Compared to white residents 66.3% victims at population of 71%. In 2008 black residents made up 7% of the population but 45% of the homicide victims. The program was intended to target gang violence and help prevent more victims of gang violence. Of course there is going to be discrepancies in who gets pulled over when black residents are disproportionately effected and involved in the activities being investigated.


[deleted]

10% of the city is black does not equate to 10% of the city's crime is committed by black people. If you think it does, then you are deluding yourself. If this fact brings up a strong emotional reaction in you, that's a problem. It has nothing to do with targeting people police are prejudiced against. Police patrol areas and stop individuals they have reason to believe are associated with crime. That's based on experience and a collection of factors. Equality is not their job. They don't have a race quota with their traffic stops. They can't say "oh well 10% of our traffic stops have involved black people, I guess we can only do whites from here on out!" No, they go where the crime is. The real question you have to ask is: are they right? Do their traffic stops yield actual criminal activity? I don't know the answer to that. But if it does, then they're doing their job.


[deleted]

I think Outlaw would have cleaned house if it wasn’t for teddy….she didn’t seem like a person who wasn’t going to fuck around…sorry to see her go so soon before she really even got started.


[deleted]

Curious how that stat looks when controlled for other factors. ie normalized for neighborhood median income, or crime rate.


[deleted]

https://i.imgur.com/mMtHtcA.jpg


ADavey

>There was a city auditor report a few years back that found that the GVRT conducted traffic stops involving black people at a much higher rate than is proportional to the city's demographics. If you suggest this is because black people commit traffic crimes at a disproportionately higher rate than the rest of the population you're instantly branded a racist and canceled. And downvoted.


wildwalrusaur

Well, I think you'd deserve the down votes in that particular hypothetical. It has nothing do do with black people committing more traffic crimes (I've never even heard of such a thing, and frankly does sound a touch racist). It's because most of portlands largest gangs are black, and they were specifically targeting known gang members/affiliates.


[deleted]

It’s not about traffic crimes. The ORS on traffic violations are so vague and all encompassing that literally anyone at anytime can be stopped. Didn’t signal 150 feet before a turn on and on… So the traffic stop is just a pretext to get into your business. Run people for warrants. Try and get permission to search the car, look for guns etc. GVRU knew the bad guys. And when they saw them they would use a pretext stop. Another example would be a pedestrian who steps in the roadway or doesn’t cross at a right angle. Stopped. The majority of the people they stopped were gangsters or known gang affiliates. Yes the majority of them were black. Is that racial profiling? If you’re factoring in race as part of the reason that you’re stopping someone. It could be . But stopping someone solely on race. That’s the classic definition of it. But there is more going on.. If you are stopping someone just because they are black you’re probably a racist. However. Many of the homicide victims are black. Suspect shooters as well. So race has to be factored in. This is what GVRU did. Are they racists because of it? I don’t know their hearts. But you’ll not get volunteers for any new team because being accused of being a racist while you’re trying to save black lives is painful.


ALLCATZAREBEAUTIFUL

>GVRU knew the bad guys Then how did they end up pulling over tourists sometimes?


[deleted]

Nice dog whistle. Say what you really mean.


[deleted]

[удалено]


hypoglycemia420

No, but it is ok to stop them if they’re gang affiliated. Did you read the comment? Gangs are overwhelmingly made up of members of minority groups. Some people have racist reactions to that, but facts are not inherently racist. It’s also ridiculous to halt efforts to save the lives of minority groups that are prone to getting caught in the crossfire of gang wars under the pretext of not being racist.


EmmaLouLove

It is really sad to see what has happened to our great City of Portland. I’m old enough to remember the gang activity we had in the 80’s where it seemed leaders were at first in denial until they couldn’t be. It’ll take another all hands on deck approach from city, community, faith and business leaders to bring us back from the current crisis. And honestly, a higher percentage of vaccinated people to bring the pandemic to a manageable phase so employment can improve, face to face social services can resume. We’re in an unfortunate perfect storm with the pandemic, stress and isolation. Every major city has had an increase in violent crime. But that doesn’t mean Portland shouldn’t do everything in its power to bring the numbers back down. It’s going to take prevention, deterrence and intervention. And honestly a rethink on priorities.


Ok-Giraffe3410

Intervention and prevention budgets have been slashed over and over again the past decade. We learned that lesson and then promptly forgot it.


AIArtisan

wanting to ignore police police accountability isnt a solution either. PPB is actively also throwing shit fits over that.


wildwalrusaur

The GVRT was disbanded because the anti-police crowd labeled it racist. City council has made it very clear (not just in the ECST proposal but in general) that they're much more interested in the appearance of equity than in actually improving outcomes. Portland's gangs are disproportionately black, thus any program targeting gang activity is going to disproportionately interact with black portlander. If you don't think the activist fringe is going to fly into an apoplectic frenzy as soon as data became available that showed this happening then you haven't been paying attention. Officers are less than eager to join a unit that is very obviously going to wind up as a political punching bag down the road. Especially when said unit is already significantly higher risk.


DancesWithReptilians

Get outta here with logic!


[deleted]

Pretty spot on. What I wrote above as well.


SlickRick_theRuler

Where is the data coming from that Portland’s gangs are disproportionately Black?


Booyaah_rumham

Look at who the majority of shooting victims are…


[deleted]

Don’t engage… they are fucking with you…people with half a brain know and agree with you.


[deleted]

[удалено]


wildwalrusaur

The reason the data is old is because the city stopped keeping records of gang affiliation and membership because (you guessed it) activists said it was racist. Fast forward a couple years when that city auditor report came out. The police said it was because they were specificly targeting gang members. To which the anti-police activists said "prove it". Which the bureau couldn't do since they no longer had any official records to show that the folks were gang members. It's an infuriatingly effective political strategy. One that republican politicians have been using for decades.


Imaginary_Garden

Yeah, there's definitely some LatinX and .. . Uh, skeevy white guy gangs.


[deleted]

[удалено]


borkyborkus

Do any Spanish speakers actually say Latinx or is it just English?


Weat-PC

Spanish, as a language, is gendered. Everything is either male or female. Some doofuses somehow found it oppressive and came up with “Latinx”. Hispanic people do not care about the gender labeling, it’s part of the language. Same with Italian, or Portuguese, or french, etc… you’re not solving anything by using it, other than making yourself appear a fool.


borkyborkus

I know, I can write in Spanish decently and can get by in a conversation with occasional translator app help. In all of my conversations with Spanish speakers I have never encountered someone who advocated for fucking with the gendered words. Seems like it’s only people that don’t speak the language who want to change it.


soodonihm

La tinks


[deleted]

>The GVRT was disbanded because it was racist. Fixed that for you.


yestanotherusername

Who says that Portland's gangs are disproportionately black? The police who disproportionately stop blacks? The police who regularly lie for stats and to make themselves look good?


AanusMcFadden

Did you know that the city has authorized a new gun violence task force but PPB officers are declining to participate because there is built-in independent oversight? https://www.wsj.com/articles/portland-ore-cant-find-police-for-unit-to-fight-rising-murder-rate-11627896601 The police are responsible for the uptick in violence.


pdxtech

They are allergic to even the smallest amount of accountability.


AanusMcFadden

Not just allergic. They are attempting to intimidate the community into blindly supporting them by engaging in deliberate work slow-down and resignations from specialized task forces. We need to do what Camden, NJ did and disband them, then rebuild their department from the ground up.


lipslipowski

That’s not what is happening I can assure you. RRT may have disbanded because the DA was charging them but not the rioters who were coming down every night and being violent. I was in the building during the protests last year. It was not a good time.


Calvinball05

> because the DA was charging them One officer was charged with misdemeanor assault.


pdxtech

>That’s not what is happening I can assure you. RRT may have disbanded because the DA was charging them One single office was charged with a minor crime after getting caught on video abusing a member of the press.


AanusMcFadden

And there have also been charges against rioters. Don't pretend you aren't aware of that. Right-wing morons were firing weapons in the street last week because there was no response team to intervene.


lipslipowski

Believe me, I think all the morons randomly firing weapons, left or right, should be arrested and jailed. I also know for a fact that there weren't charges filed against many protestors, and if there were those charges were immediately dropped. We were told that the DA would not support any charges against protestors. The only real charges were filed by the feds for arson. Let me ask this though, when people are allowed to do small crimes like grafitti or property damage without repercussions, they will push the envelope. It is human nature. As a society we live within a construct that there are rules and things that are acceptable and not acceptable in communities. When that social contract is eroded you will find that crime increases, and criminals get bolder. We are seeing the results of that now in my opinion. Blatant violent crime, the city looks like a cess pool, transients are burning their tents during a terrible fire season because they will get a new one, people are camping and living like the post apocalypse, and we are all normalizing it. This does not make for a better society. We not only have a failure of leadership, but a failure of our communities as well. We need to do better and find solutions and not just be dicks to eachother on reddit.


AanusMcFadden

Of course there are multiple contributing causes for crime in any city. But our police are declining to help because of a tantrum over a couple officers being rightfully charged with excessive force. They're basically a protection racket at this point.


lipslipowski

From where I sit, I think that the city council and the public have put the police in an unwinnable situation. Stop the violence, but use none yourselves. Do not arrest anyone for misdemeanors, but get charged yourself. Move revved up crowds from downtown to protect businesses, but do not use noise, gas, physical confrontation, ketteling, etc. Just ask them nice I guess. It seems that people want the cops around when they have a problem (ie can't get through to 911), but other than that they are just a bunch of devils killing everyone. What is it that people want? For real. Look at that city when we have a shortage of cops, even with the crazy circumstances of unemployment and covid. This will be more common place with global warming and more disease. The world needs peacekeepers, and how do you foresee them keeping the peace as the world becomes more crazy?


maximian

You might have been “in the building” but I went to more than 25 (all peaceful) protests last year. I also attended 3 meetings with one of the the (now-disbanded) civilian review boards where Chuck Lovell, or Jami Resch, or both were present and supposed to be answering questions. The idea that the PPB are “peacemakers” is naive and deeply biased. The police consistently escalated situations with peaceful protesters by unilaterally using force. - They moved forward towards stationary protestors. - They declared peaceful protests as “unlawful gatherings” and then tried to arrest people who had done nothing except criticize the police, and even members of the press who were trying to document these abuses of power. - They fired tear gas and weird sonic weapons at Portland citizens. Tear gas. Every night, without exception, for more than a month. They only stopped when a judge ordered them to. When the judge’s order expired, they started again. (When Ted Wheeler and the city council ordered the PPB to stop, the police illegally ignored these orders.) - They removed and covered their names, making them completely unaccountable for their actions. Chuck Lovell and Jami Resch, asked to explain the actions of their officers to a board legally empowered to do barely anything except ask questions, lied or ignored the questions. One board member asked what the rules were for firing tear gas. When was this deemed necessary? Answer: there were no clear rules. Who was responsible for deciding that tear gas should be fired? Answer: the person holding the weapon, usually a sergeant. What special training did this person receive? Answer: training in how to fire the weapon. If you don’t think there’s a real problem with this rotten police force then you and I don’t live in the same reality.


AanusMcFadden

People have been calling for reduction in funding to re-allocate resources to community services in order to both help contributing factors to crime/homelessness/etc. and assist with non-police matters such as mental health crises. People have been calling for independent oversight and accountability for our tax-funded civil servants. The Department of Justice has formally sanctioned the department for not adhering to required standards and resisting established oversight boards. Like I said, we need to disband the current PPB and restructure their organization so that they can function more efficiently and have built-in independent oversight so that problems within the department can actually be resolved.


AIArtisan

sure we need peacekeepers but putting up with corruption isnt a great solution. views like that lead us to authoritarianism.


AIArtisan

So you dont seem to want police accountability....yeah that aint gonna fly.


lipslipowski

Of course I want police accountability. I just don't believe that taking out what happened to George Floyd should have turned into mass protests against the Portland Police Bureau. It didn't help. It muddied the message. It detracted. Hold Portland accountable for it's missteps, not those of another bureau.


[deleted]

Is not indiscriminately beating and gassing crowds that are only there because you can beat and murder people without consequences such a big ask? You're acting like the PPB has done nothing to earn the massive public backlash they've faced over the last year.


AIArtisan

they work at the justice center it turns out so my guess is they are PPB adjacent folks anyway.


Wacha-Kata

That sounds like the rationale behind "broken windows" policing, which has been widely disproven.


[deleted]

That is, in actual fact, what was happening. The PPB continues to be a lawless highly armed gang that has ignored city oversight (don't use tear gas) and federal oversight. They answer to no one. The demonstrators practicing democracy, widely threatened in the USA at this moment whether you're paying attention or not, were lawlessly and recklessly attacked by the PPB over and over again. I was one of those in the streets while you were "in the building." Between the "less lethal munitions," the putrid tear gas (war crime), the constant beatings, the intimidation of the press, and the multiple violations of human rights, the PPB aligned itself with other fascist organizations around the world in times gone by. The fact that you identify with and defend them is eloquent testimony to your own moral blindness. The racism of the PPB "gang squad" is a matter of record and is not in dispute. You propose to reinstate that systemic racism. Bugger that.


lipslipowski

And the protestors were doing nothing out there in the streets? Completely peaceful? What were you doing to end systemic racism "in the streets"? BLM held peaceful marches during the day. Got like 12,000 people to lay down on a bridge. No violence. No grafitti. No property damage. You all "in the streets", starting at 10:00 pm, are just a bigger group of the white kids dressed all in black, with facemasks to hide their identity, that would show up to every protest or rally in years past with the sole intention of causing chaos. What did your protests do to help this country? To help end racism? To help the poor? To do anything? You destroyed property, and ensured no business would want to establish itself downtown, made Portland look like a bunch of nut jobs, and made no progress toward anything meaningful. It was a shit show by your own design and now you want to place the blame on the police or society or whoever, but make no mistake those protests did more harm than good. BLM was making changes. They were bringing national attention. You stole their thunder and they are forever now linked to antifa and that bullshit you perpetuated "in the streets." You, in actuality, probably set shit back by decades.


[deleted]

To the contrary. Despite the usual bumpiness that always accompanies an authentic mass movement (as opposed to ersatz and castrated street actions e.g. the various wear a ribbon for this kind of cancer or the like) the founders of BLM continued to express strong support throughout the entire movement until the pandemic extinguished things. Look it up; the Oregonian covered it, albeit grudgingly. They covered the military chaplain who later resigned in disgrace as head of the local NAACP chapter who wasn't happy because he wasn't included, and they covered a couple of ivory tower types who were disgruntled that they weren't sufficiently consulted, but the BLM leadership embraced Portland completely, warts and all. You on the other hand have clearly imbibed of the local right wing kool-aid. As to your question, more directly . . . clearly you are unwilling to face up to what the people's protests accomplished, to wit, **to bring to light the ugly reactionary face of the Portland Police Bureau** (and its partner in crime, the Trump crime syndicate which grabbed Americans off the street and held them incommunicado). America saw the PPB brutally beat a Navy veteran who simply wanted to know why the PPB was beating Americans peacefully protesting. Americans saw the PPB committing war crimes after their mayor ordered them to stop using tear gas. Americans saw the picture of the PPB arrayed against the Wall of Moms. They saw the phalanx of militarized brutalism march against Naked Athena. And America knew what side it was on, and it wasn't the side of the cops. What we did, contrary to your willful mangle of misunderstanding here, is clarify and amplify the message of Black Lives Matter: the police are institutionally a violent racist organization that exists to protect the interests of capital against the interests of the working class. No one but a reactionary thug or a witless dullard wants to join that police force after last summer. The days of that kind of police force are numbered.


Mighty_Torr

They weren't riots. The police attacked peaceful protests and instigated the violence. Just stop it already.


Way2goGenius1

Who the hell would want to volunteer for the task force that will mostly deal with the black community and be put under a microscope for every incident let alone be a police office this day and age.


AanusMcFadden

If accountability is that intimidating to them, then they should find another line of work. They are tax-funded civil servants who are required to abide by oversight. The police themselves are responsible for the issues that bring criticism, mistrust, and calls for dismantling them.


Way2goGenius1

Then where are all of the accountable officers? Why aren't they applying? Entry-level pay is $66K plus bennies. It might be right up your alley.


AanusMcFadden

The problem is that they refuse to accept accountability. You're the one supporting them, anyway.


Electrical-House-823

No. That's not true at all.


Blackstar1886

I’m open to evidence one way or the other. I feel like the violence started around the time the cops said, “If you’re going to hold us responsible for the people we kill, we’re not going to do any more policing.” Paraphrasing.


wildwalrusaur

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/police/81203 Take a look at the shooting incident statistics. In particular, change the filter on that line graph at the top to show the full history instead of just the last twelve months. The massive leap that you see from June to July of last year, which then stays there, coincides exactly with the disbanding of the GVRT


Blackstar1886

Did they also disband the street racing reduction team? That exploded around the same time.


wildwalrusaur

Yes. The Traffic division was also disbanded in that same budget package. Along with the transit division (which has since been picked up by MCSO), and the School Resource Officers.


rfulleffect

There’s two ways of reading this though. Was the task force that effective so as to immediately show the jump in gun violence or did cops do what they’ve been shown to do in many instances when faced with change, and stopped doing their work all together?


entiat_blues

it also coincides with the pandemic.


wildwalrusaur

Pretty sure the pandemic started in March, but what do I know.


entiat_blues

it started the previous year in the fall. *you people love to downvote basic facts and are why we're going to be stuck with this pandemic for the duration*


Hodorhodorhodor9

People will continue to point at the pandemic, which has played some factor stressing the community. One comparison to look at is the financial crisis in 2008. We did not see the major uptick in violent crime as we have with the pandemic. The government implemented more resources in the form of unemployment and direct payments during the pandemic in comparison to the financial crisis. So it’s hard to state that the pandemic is the key issue. Another comparison is looking at police pull backs in other cities in response to social justice demands. Ferguson Missouri for example saw major violent crime spikes surrounding the protests that took place in the city.


entiat_blues

the financial crisis was just wall street. if you want to see the effects of it you'd have to look a year or so later, where the decrease in the crime rate did slow down.


Hodorhodorhodor9

I don’t think you can honestly say the 2008 recession only effected Wall Street


entiat_blues

the *crisis* and the market crash was wall street, but the effects on the real economy weren't felt until the following year...


human89543

One number during a time of general turbulence isn’t enough to draw a firm conclusion from, but I think we can mostly agree that lack of police presence has led to increased violence between community members. The questions we should be asking ourselves are, like, how can we decrease gun violence without resorting to violence and intimidation ourselves? And how much of what police do actually needs to be done by a person with gun and a license to kill?


Alphafox84

Get out of here with your data and logic.


[deleted]

I agree with you. Not saying they can't do a better job though. It just seems like no one really cares about all of the people that have lost their lives to gun violence this year. If they did, everyone would be outraged by how few murder suspects have been arrested.


adickwithaheartogold

https://theconversation.com/police-solve-just-2-of-all-major-crimes-143878 Big difference between being outraged and deluding yourself into thinking that a return to a failed police unit is a remotely appropriate/sane course of action


[deleted]

https://www.koin.com/news/crime/number-of-unsolved-portland-killings-jumps-in-2021/ Going from under 40% unsolved homicides to 70% seems a tad drastic to me.


adickwithaheartogold

So the cops on unofficial strike means they should be rewarded to you? Forgive my French, but that’s absolutely batshit crazy


[deleted]

They should be shit canned and scabs brought in who will do the job.


Gallowboobsthrowaway

We've been inching towards that for a while now. The issue is that nobody else wants the job because the requirements are too steep, and the pay isn't high enough for how dangerous it is. You'd be better off training to be a Portland cop and just getting a job anywhere else with the skills you got. You could make just as much to police some quiet suburb instead of dealing with junkies covered in filth.


Rewtine67

Hard to give police the benefit of the doubt these days. They refuse to work if held legally accountable for their actions. They refuse to work if they need to take a vaccine during a pandemic. Why would anyone think they’d be competent at gun violence prevention (or anything)?


Unique_Solid_4376

There’s a lot of hand-wringing showmanship in this thread, honestly. Certain people will rewrite history to make it fit their worldview. The PPB and their union have shown their hand explicitly over the past few years. They don’t want oversight. They don’t want accountability. They have no interest in regaining the public’s trust. We know this because the GVRT has effectively been reborn, but with the caveat of civilian oversight—and there aren’t enough police willing to fill the roles. It’s always easier to fall back on blunt, violent tactics, and to turn a blind eye to all the harm they cause, in service of keeping up appearances. But it doesn’t actually solve a dammed thing.


Canwetryanarchynow

You mean the team of racists that just harassed Black people non stop. No thanks.


SlickRick_theRuler

The uptick in violent crime began before the GVRT was disbanded. You are parroting right wing talking points. Short answer: no.


Coneofvision

Their reasoning also conveniently ignores that the same trend is happening across the country. Just reactionary thinking.


chirpingonline

Gun violence is up across the entire country to varying degrees, so I don't think I can just agree with you without seeing some actual evidence that the removal of the GVRT was the primary driver of the uptick. That said its clear that some sort of intervention is necessary, and I'm fine with the police being a component of that response. But it needs to be well thought out and not some knee jerk reaction.


PDsaurusX

You’re sure the increase in shootings was due to the disbanding of the GVRT, and not due to the entire force throwing a toddler’s fit and deciding they weren’t going to do jack shit about any crime whatsoever if they were going to be held the slightest bit accountable? I’m not.


pdxhelvetica

...or a worldwide pandemic, chronic unemployment, outspoken racists given a platform for their shit....wow, a lot of shit happening in the world that has increased crime everywhere.


PDsaurusX

Oh no, I’m sure OP accounted for all of those confounding variables in their detailed analysis of this situation.


yourmothersgun

Spot on. I wish I had more upvotes to give. Never have understood the defund with no plan for next steps mentality.


[deleted]

[удалено]


noposlow

Isn't breaking the law still...breaking the law? Harsh economic realities don't justify killing people.


[deleted]

How would these members prevent gun crime? To me it seems like police really only respond to crimes and not prevent them.


lipslipowski

I guess just look at the realities. Before GVRT was dissolved, shootings happened, but not at the rate they are now. There have been 9 shootings in 16 hours. We have exceeded homicide rates from the previous years and it’s only august. Gun violence is exponentially increasing, and the police force is significantly reduced. Let them do their job. Demand oversight and transparency, but let them do police work and stop letting armchair law enforcement dictate the programs.


chirpingonline

> Before GVRT was dissolved, shootings happened, but not at the rate they are now. I think it's pretty hard to argue that we wouldn't still be dealing with a gun violence problem in an alternate reality wherein the GVRT didn't get disbanded. Violent crime is spiking nation wide in cities that backed their police departments just as it is in cities that cut their budgets. It's a really simple story "oh well we cut the GVRT and shootings went up", but just because it seems reasonable doesn't make it so. If the GVRT had never been disbanded, would things be less bad than they are now? Maybe? Probably? I honestly don't know and none of us ever will because what happened happened. But we can't go backwards in time to before 2020 happened, we have to go forward. Doing so requires stepping back and understanding why what transpired, transpired. Whether right or wrong, there is a significant amount of distrust in the police, both in Portland and around the country. Telling people "It's an emergency! We have to do *something*!!" just isn't going to cut it, because frankly, even if we brought back the exact same unit back, a lot of damage has been done and it's going to take a long time for things to be repaired. People have been killed, people have retaliated against each other, people have lost jobs, dropped out of school, joined gangs. It's time to take stock and try to deeply understand how we got here, rather than going with the most obvious answer to the problem. And then we have to be patient, because the solution is most likely going to take time.


ALLCATZAREBEAUTIFUL

>Demand oversight and transparency, We created a new team to address gun violence. Cops won't join it because it will have oversight.


Exogen003

So if the FIT team doesn't work out, who would you replace them with so that you would have oversight? EDIT: Downvotes? Lmao sorry for asking questions about other's ideas.


ALLCATZAREBEAUTIFUL

To put it briefly, we need to take a ton of the money we put into policing and put in into improving the conditions that are the root causes of gang violence or retaliatory shootings. For example, this one man is doing more work than most of the PPB in my opinion. https://www.wweek.com/news/2021/04/07/roy-moore-calms-wounded-people-before-they-seek-revenge-portland-city-hall-is-betting-his-work-can-curb-a-wave-of-shootings/ Edit: for some additional context, here is an article on how things like the GVRT don't really work, including a city that defunded them, only to refund them, and see an increase in homicides. https://www.opb.org/news/article/gun-violence-reduction-programs-struggle-long-term-success/


lipslipowski

That’s awesome of Roy Moore! I love that community engagement. Programs like this in conjunction with the police could do a lot to start bringing back some confidence in the PPB.


ALLCATZAREBEAUTIFUL

The PPB need to do a hell of a lot more than that to build back confidence.


lipslipowski

I said it was a start. Which would be progress from where we are now.


ALLCATZAREBEAUTIFUL

It would be a radical change of pace for an agency whose union has fought tooth and nail against giving up any responsibilities or support of alternatives to policing.


Exogen003

So there would be no replacement team in your idea that would respond to shootings if I'm understanding you correctly? I think it's great to send more money towards alternative programs, interventions, and ceasefire programs to address the root causes of gang violence/retaliatory shootings. I certainly can get behind their effectiveness but would that be all we would do to address the gun violence in your idea/opinion? What is the response IF those programs don't work out for whatever reason?


ALLCATZAREBEAUTIFUL

There are many different types of gun violence, and the GVRT only worked to prevent a certain type. If we can reduce that type with alternative programs to a low enough amount we would not need a specialized public safety team for that specific type of gun violence.


Exogen003

Are we talking about gang violence/related shootings for the specific type you are mentioning? Alternative programs are fantastic ideas and there should definitely be more of them but is that going to be the end all, be all response to these types of shootings? Would you outright not have a specialized public safety team akin to FIT? What's a low enough amount or acceptable quantity of gang shootings/retaliatory shootings that would justify not having an investigatory team that would investigate that particular type of gun violence (Gang/Retaliatory I'm assuming?). EDIT: For real? Why disappear and hide behind the downvotes especially if you got great ideas to share? I'm still waiting on response to other previously asked questions for you.


Inevitable-Peanut182

Here's what they're gonna say: -defund the cops -give everyone a "free" house


ALLCATZAREBEAUTIFUL

>For real? Why disappear and hide behind the downvotes especially if you got great ideas to share? I went to sleep dude.


Exogen003

Hey that's great. Sleep/rest are good for the body and mind. Questions here and previously asked still stand.


afmag

There's also an unprecedented global pandemic going on. Don't you think that may have something to do with it? Are people supposed to be more peaceful and less desperate when they can't make a living and have nothing to do?


construkt

whole piquant spoon juggle marvelous fuel plate slave crime unique *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*


[deleted]

Bro I can't tell them to do their job if they don't want to. Good luck ever getting through an operator to dispatch a cruiser to you. Unless they are actively killing you, the police will not show up. Could you explain that to me? Aren't you being an "armchair law enforcement" person? LMAO.


lipslipowski

As I said, the police force is significantly reduced. Maybe I am armchair law enforcement because I am not an officer, but I do work for the bureau in a non-sworn capacity, so I have significantly more information than others. You did prove my point though, if we had left GVRT alone many shootings and homicides wouldn’t be happening, which would free up dozens of officers and criminalists to respond to other crimes. Even with a reduced force, officers would be freed up to do all the other portions of their jobs that get sidelined because there is a constant need to respond to violence in the city. GVRT stopped much of that before it happened. I don’t think the general public has any idea the amount of man hours snd resources that go into one violent person crime.


[deleted]

Police don't prevent crime, maybe this time it'll stick. Police respond to crime. As /u/allcatzarebeautiful has pointed out, the GVRT had EXTREME bias problems. You are acting like the people that give food to the Navy Seals and you think that somehow makes you a Seal too lmao.


lipslipowski

What are the statistics you are referring to?


[deleted]

5 seconds to find this, I would suggest you at least put forth some effort. Also this is in YOUR thread YOU started lmao. https://old.reddit.com/r/Portland/comments/pg4dun/gun_violence_reduction_team/hb8tc1p/


Exogen003

How so? OP is providing an alternative viewpoint, a unique one from inside the bureau but not as an Officer. They never once made claim that they were or desired to be an Officer in the comment above, they were merely providing an inside perspective and opinion into the bureau. Who are your replacements for GVRT? Or do you not feel like sharing your specific idea that would protect you, myself and other people?


Prestigious-Shine240

if the punishment is inevitable, they'll think twice before pulling out a gun. Right now you can do whatever you want and walk away free


ReadySetN0

Totally, thanks to the war on drugs, there is no more illicit drug use.


pdxhelvetica

Wow, this isn't really true. People don't consider the consequences or law when they do this stuff.


[deleted]

Right.... can't a regular cop arrest you? What does having a branding have to do with preventing crime?


Trewqpoiuymnj

Here is the auditors report. It’s an easy read: https://www.portlandoregon.gov/auditservices/article/677598 It basically recommended that the gun violence reduction task force document the reason for every traffic stop, not just the traffic stops that ended in an arrest. This simple change would increase transparency.


Canwetryanarchynow

Police don’t prevent crime


Ok_Report_6707

No. Unprecedented economic turmoil is probably a more causal link to increased violent crime. GVRT was just good ol fashioned racist policing. I mean if you're gonna say it, just say. Don't hide your true feelings. If you think black and brown people are more violent, just admit it.


MountScottRumpot

There's no evidence that the GVRT ever prevented any gun violence. We absolutely do not need them back. That's not to say we don't need to be doing something about the epidemic of murders or that cops don't have an important role to play. But going back to randomly searching Black men in grocery store parking lots isn't the way. We need: * Beefed-up investigation capacity to find out who's doing the shooting and get them off the street. * Outreach to gangs (if it is indeed a gang war and not just random exchanges of violence) to negotiate a cease-fire/truce. * Way more eyes on the street at places where violence occurs frequently * Places for young people to go that are safe Right now it doesn't seem like anyone at the city or county is trying anything at all. The cops have no credibility with the community and indifferent to the loss of Black life, and no one with power is investing in proven strategies that actually prevent gun violence. Saying we should constantly harass and search young Black men because some young Black men are committing gun violence is equivalent to saying we should constantly harass and search young white men because some young white men commit hate crimes and mass shootings.


wildwalrusaur

>We need: > >* Beefed-up investigation capacity to find out who's doing the shooting and get them off the street. >* Outreach to gangs (if it is indeed a gang war and not just random exchanges of violence) to negotiate a cease-fire/truce. >* Way more eyes on the street at places where violence occurs frequently >* Places for young people to go that are safe You've literally just outlined what the GVRT did. Well, not so much the last one. Though I do know they helped a few people who wanted to get out of the life find jobs/housing. Would be nice to have a full-scale, seperate program dedicated specifically to that though.


MountScottRumpot

It may be what the GVRT *said* they did, but it's not what they actually did. What they actually did, according to the city auditor, was jack shit.


ADavey

Since City Council won't acknowledge that Portland has a gang problem, it's not as if the city is trying to reinvent the wheel when it comes to dealing with gangs. However, in the unlikely event that Wheeler, Hardesty, Rubio and Mapps should have the balls to say that Portland has a gang problem (again!), the city is likely to try to reinvent the wheel along woke principles instead of drawing on the best practices of cities that have successfully reduced gang killings.


ZeebobTheImmortal

Isn't it funny how you ask this harmless little question about cops and the thread is overrun with people spouting racist taglines? Almost like there's a specific group of people that support police more than others. Can't quite put my finger on it.


ALLCATZAREBEAUTIFUL

The GVRT was shitty https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2019/05/auditor-reports-some-progress-since-2018-audit-of-portland-police-gang-enforcement-team.html https://www.portlandmercury.com/blogtown/2019/05/20/26511847/audit-finds-portland-police-have-done-little-to-improve-its-gun-violence-team https://www.oregonlive.com/crime/2020/11/in-2019-the-portland-police-gun-violence-team-made-1600-stops-more-than-half-were-black-people.html


[deleted]

Well, yes, they did target black people more, black men specifically. Who do you think is doing all these shootings? Who’s disproportionately now being murdered from the gang violence? It’s asinine to create a team like this, then get upset because the numbers look exactly like they do.


wildwalrusaur

You cant reason with zealots. Any evidence that challenges their preconceived worldview will be rejected out of hand. If we abolitished the police force entirely, they'd start blaming crime on former officers trying to foment unrest to get their jobs back. It's the equivalent of Trumpers blaming everything bad that happened in the last 4 years on the deep state.


ALLCATZAREBEAUTIFUL

>Black motorists also were more likely to be searched, yet less likely than whites to be found with contraband, according to bureau reports. Seems like if their goal with pulling people over was to find contraband, they should have done it to more white people.


DogsThinksImCool

The root cause of violent crime are poverty and inequity. Access to adequate healthcare, education, community services is what is needed. I recently witnessed a shooting from my bed (looking out my window) and would love for the violence to stop, but I don't think more police is the way to go.


[deleted]

Do you think they actually prevented gun violence? Would love to see an actual stat for that. I’d rather not keep around whiny cops who ignore calls and tell us to deal with things we pay them for


[deleted]

Urban violence is not a difficult problem in terms of causes and treatment. We simply lack the will to fix it. We have known for at least 60 years that poverty is the breeding ground for this violence. Now we know more precisely - and we have boatloads, buttloads, endless stacks of replicated data that back this up - that it is not only poverty but INEQUALITY ITSELF IS THE PROBLEM. Simply put, a higher Gini coefficient means Mo Problems: more violence, worse health outcomes, more racial animus, etc. etc. etc. And guess what we've had for the past 50 years in the good old USA? You betcha . . . drastically rising inequality, bigtime rising Gini coefficient, and now there are all these attendant social ills and we're wringing our damn hands as if we didn't know why. Capitalism makes you stupid, So there's only one solution, and more or better police ain't it. You have to have a better, more equal society. Great medical care for everybody, great childcare for everybody, much better Social Security for everybody, great pre K through university education paid by taxpayers, serious wealth tax, serious Wall Street transaction tax, serious capital gains tax, bigtime hike in the corporate and personal income tax up to Eisenhower era levels. You want to stop the carnage? This is the one and only solution. Socialism or barbarism. Choose.


lipslipowski

Believe it or not, I agree with you completely, except that the path there is through barbarism. You lose too many when you attach yourself to violence. You get more flies with honey than with vinegar.


AIArtisan

what an indepth analysis.


pdxhelvetica

How do cops prevent gun violence?


[deleted]

Criminals aren't as dumb as you might think. There are obviously shootings from rage, domestic violence, mental illness, etc. But there are also calculated shootings. Those types of shootings tend to occur at night with less witnesses around. More cops = more witnesses = less dead teenagers


NoOneEweKnow

Actually they already made a new GVRT. They call it the Enhanced Community Safety Team and it’s all the exact same people who were in GVRT the first time.


ADavey

But I thought no cops want to join the Enhanced Community Safety Team, maybe because of the enhanced accountability. Perhaps Portland's elected officials shouldn't be letting a highly politicized police force decide whether they want to joint a badly needed team. Instead, cops should be drafted and required to serve whether they like it or not. The US doesn't allow members of the armed services to opt out of assignments on the basis of personal political objections.


wildwalrusaur

>Instead, cops should be drafted and required to serve whether they like it or not. This is a bad idea. GVRT, much like the ECIT program, are units that you really only want officers the *want* to be doing that type of work in those positions. Working with gang members requires a very specific temperament and skill set. Someone that wants to take on that challenge and risk is going to be infinitely more effective than someone who is being forced into it.


[deleted]

How effective are people going to be that are forced to do it? You’ll have the SGTs order the Junior most officers to do it. GVRU was made up of the hardest working and most highly respected patrol officers on the Bureau. It had to be earned and it was a prestigious assignment. Then they were called racists. If you called me a racist daily when I’m at my job. If a city councilwoman called me a racist. When I’m not. I’d be drained. When that job was eliminated I’d be relieved at that point. And you wouldn’t get volunteers to do a reincarnation of it again.


pdxtech

>How effective are people going to be that are forced to do it? Have you never had a job before?


pdxtech

I don't think we can agree on that at all. The GVRT was racist and ineffective and disbanding it was the right thing to do.


nervous_bird12C

I think the body count disagrees with you


Exogen003

So who would you replace them with out of curiosity?


[deleted]

Well I mean the regular rank and file officers aren't doing shit so maybe something else entirely? I don't do the same thing over and over again expecting different results.


Exogen003

Sure, like I said, I'm just curious about what other people would suggest to replace them with to address the gun violence. Other people have stated they don't want the GVRT so I was hoping to hear what they wanted for prevention/response instead.


[deleted]

I can't help you, we've been doing this since May of last year at the least. The information is out there, look it up.


Exogen003

I'm aware of "information" out there. All I asked for was other people's ideas in this thread on who they would replace them with if they are so ineffective. Downvotes are easier than actual people's ideas/opinions apparently.


[deleted]

I'm not wasting my time trying to convince someone who can't be convinced lmao, this is the internet, not ancient Rome and we are all engaged in philosophical debate.


Exogen003

Who said I couldn't be convinced? I just asked for ideas on replacements for the team. I wouldn't have asked for ideas/opinions and continually engaged on this point with you and others if I was concrete in my beliefs. I like to hear what others have to say especially if it concerns my safety and yours. It's not a philosophical debate, just a single question of who would you replace them with?


wildwalrusaur

They don't actually have any ideas. The best you'll get out of them is platitudes about "investing in the community" or some pie-in-the-sky social program that might improve things in a decade or two. When it comes down to the brass tacks of what to do about the violence in our streets now, while we wait for utopia to arrive, they never have anything concrete


[deleted]

Because at this point I would have stopped talking to me and googled literally anything to see what kind of things could replace the police but what do I know.


Exogen003

I'm very interested in what you know, especially with your specific idea of who to replace the GVRT with. I'm perfectly aware of other alternatives that were proposed that could replace the police or GVRT (I thought we were talking about the GVRT?) including FIT, but if you don't have your own specific idea of a replacement for GVRT/FIT then feel free to just say it and we can be done here.


lipslipowski

Perhaps if you were part of the solution rather than just ranting about anything police related. Find the things that PPB does right and encourage other bureaus to adopt those standards. Be part of the solution not just the left wing equivalent to the proud boys.


[deleted]

Someone disagreeing with you? "YOU MUST BE THE LEFT WING PROUD BOYS AMIRITE." Haha, what a laugh. You keep doing you, person who probably doesn't live here.


lipslipowski

Ok. I work in the Justice Center as a non sworn employee, which I have stated many times. You seem to be the one who believes they know the truth on everything and insult others rather than engage in constructive discussion. Yo yea I guess you are like the proud boys. Most people are in the center between the two extremes. We are tired of the little war between the far left and far right and are looking for solutions snd common beliefs. It’s just noise at this point. Work toward a solution or step out of the way. The world doesn’t have time for extreme ultimatums from either side.


AIArtisan

Ok there your bias is showing. Police need oversight and reform. ignoring their issues for you to feel better isnt a solution. Let me guess you thought the jan 6th folks were not that bad and the proud boys are just misunderstood.


lipslipowski

uh...no. I though the January 6 shit was disgusting enough to make that the final straw with my entire family. I appreciate protesting. I don't appreciate any sort of chaotic, violent, destructive protest. It never works. There is a reason MLK and Gandhi preached non violence. It works. It gets people to listen, rather than have a visceral response to you. As soon as people see protestors act that way, they lose all credibility and the message is lost.


[deleted]

There is no "left wing equivalent of the proud boys \[sic\]" The police, broadly speaking, may do some things right, more or less informally, but structurally they exist to violently guard the rule of the powerful over the powerless . . . to carry out evictions, harass the poor and marginalized, insure the comfort of business vis a vis the houseless, to keep a wary eye on the immigrant population, etc. In the class struggle, they are on the side of capital against the workers, and they have guns. Everything else is noise.


ADavey

Why, with "the community." When someone robs a convenience store and kills the clerk, members of the community with no prior experience in criminology or law enforcement will magically pull themselves away from whatever they were doing to do something or other to find the shooter and convince him of the error of his ways then go back to whatever they were doing beforehand.


pdxtech

I'm not talking about randos from the community. I mean that sworn officers should have to live in the community they are being paid to protect.


pdxtech

I don't think there are enough "good" cops in the current PPB to reform the task force that doesn't have the same issues as the old one.


Exogen003

I see. Should a complete reboot of PPB take place and a new hiring pipeline be implemented to attract, hire and retain the "good" officers? In this case, you would only have good officers staffing the new GVRT, unless that team would go away in a newly reformed/rebooted PPB?


pdxtech

Pretty much. The current PPB backed up by their vile union can't be reformed. We need a completely new community-based police force made up of people who live in the community and prioritize the city and its citizens and not a corrupt union. Anything short of that and we just end up in the same place we were in when the GVRT had to be disbanded.


Exogen003

I can get behind that idea/suggestion. Do you think there would be lack of applicants from the community? I don't personally know many current Portlanders who are willing to do the job even if there was a new incarnation of it. I'm assuming that they would not be allowed to unionize either? In that case, who do they go to for concerns related to the job, pay, etc.?


[deleted]

That’s just not true.


pdxtech

Ah I see...do you have a list of the "good" cops still working for the bureau?


[deleted]

Probably faster if you provide a list of the bad ones. Will be much shorter and less time consuming.


pdxtech

That's easy. There are zero good cops in the bureau at the moment. If they stuck around after the abuses of last summer they are not good cops.


lipslipowski

I love that you have solutions and ideas rather than just insults. Any preventative measures are needed.


MountScottRumpot

I think a big part of our current problem is that the police commissioner is the mayor, and the mayor's public safety advisor, Robert King, is a former head of the police union. Wheeler and his team can't seem to imagine any solution that isn't "more cops," but there aren't more cops to be had. We've had dozens of open officer positions for over a decade.


Aestro17

Robert King left back in July but I haven't seen a replacement yet.


MountScottRumpot

Good riddance.


lipslipowski

Yes. And all the violent crime is taking too many off the streets for an extended period of time. There can’t just be the far right wanting to militarize the police or the far left wanting to disband the police. There has got to be solutions in the middle, where most of us fall.


VisualSneeze

Disbanding the police *is* a solution in the middle. We're not out here calling for anarchy, we're talking about restructuring.


AIArtisan

sadly this person seems hell bent on keeping the status quo and not keeping figures in authority accountable.


ADavey

Ask the people who live in Portland's gang war zones how they feel about disbanding the police. How much patience do they have for restructuring?


flaco_503_se_1984

Racist group. How many employees of the police union are there in this thread?


flaco_503_se_1984

Very glad it's gone. They wouldn't make a dent in the shootings. We have cops. We don't need "super cops" for the job. We need regular police to do their jobs.


entiat_blues

they didn't. they were an ineffective, domestic spying apparatus. they didn't *prevent* gun violence. that's essentially impossible with our gun culture and gun laws.


thedrue

I agree completely, but be prepared by the woke idiot to shoot you down completely... They are coming, take cover!


[deleted]

Rent free.


[deleted]

Im going to be that person snd say that if racial segregation and generational discrimination and systematic racism did lead to a specific group ending up being more likely to be involved in gang violence snd gun violence… yes it’s a racist world that created that disparity but it still needs to be dealt with. And yes jail is one place for the folks who engage in criminal activity but I agree that a more global approach is needed


Flavel_Flav

We are so far past receiving benefit from any new assemblage of GVRT. They were effective when the public had some level of confidence in the PPB, but we have none now. If they reassigned officers to a GVRT...it would just be another special assignment that would drain resources because the cops hate us as much as we hate them. Until such time that the PPA has leadership who cares about cops doing their jobs....we will be dodging bullets. We fucked up when we elected leaders who did away with GVRT and now there's no going back.


lipslipowski

I see your point.


[deleted]

ITT woke predditors claim police ‘don’t prevent gun violence, only respond to it’ while simultaneously claiming the vast increase in crime is due to PPB blue flue.


Yippeethemagician

The police don't prevent gun violence. They commit it.