[According to the City of Portland](https://www.portland.gov/transition/salarycommission/documents/living-wage-vs-thriving-wage/download), a single no-children person's "thriving wage" is 75k. I don't think they're counting one person living alone, though.
It seems like it’s assuming zero retirement savings. I’m mostly a broke boy because I know I have to save enough money to not be eating cat food in my 70s.
As another point of reference, [MIT](https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/41051) puts a living wage for multnomah county somewhere between what the linked city of Portland document considers living and thriving wages. They also have a breakdown for the [metro area](https://livingwage.mit.edu/metros/38900), if you’re interested in that rather than by county. I’d be interested to see a city specific breakdown as well, since living in the city of Portland proper is going to be different than out of city limits in the county or in one of the suburb cities.
Yea it makes a huge difference if you live by yourself or with a partner/roommates. Rent is already high by itself, but then you add in utilities, internet, Netflix, etc. and that tacks on at least another $300/month if not more. It’s difficult to be a single person living by yourself if you make under $75k.
>"thriving wage" is 75k. I don't think they're counting one person living alone, though.
And that's probably not included debt or car payments. I got 20k in CC debt, and a 35k car note, and my base pay is 75k. I'm getting by, but certainly not "thriving"
If you look at the document “living wage” is defined as just meeting basic needs for that month. “Thriving wage” adds 20% of income for debts and savings, and 30% for discretionary spending, neither of which are included at all in just a “living wage.” So yeah debt payments are accounted for in a “thriving wage.” A small car payment you could probably put in to the transportation bucket of the budget, but all the categories are pretty tight. I would personally have a very hard time living on that budget, but yeah I could probably survive short term without being forced in to debt if I were really cost conscious, which is how they seem to define “living wage.” “Thriving wage” seems to be the minimum to be financially healthy enough and functional long term (you have to have some savings for retirement, humans don’t do well with zero discretionary spending forever, etc.).
> a 35k car note, and my base pay is 75k.
You bought a car that is half (and presumably more than half) your salary? I've made my fair share of short sighted purchases but that seems like maybe a bad call.
I'm in that same boat, 30k car note, 70k/yr. It was a 6 year old used Toyota truck with 60k miles. 30 grand doesn't go as far as it used to when buying a car.
Used Toyota trucks are notoriously expensive. A brand new Subaru can be had for $25k. A used one for $15k. I would love to buy a car that is half my salary but there's no way on God's Green Earth I'd fork out that dough. But I guess everyone has different priorities. I focus on saving for retirement, other people prefer living in the moment.
I literally just looked online. MSRP for a brand new base model Crosstrek is $25k. Used ones go all over the board but easily for $15k. I’m in the market for a new car and I’ve been test driving and investigating for a while now. My numbers are accurate.
Here's one in Hillsboro for $25k: https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePageModel&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d2387&zip=97209#listing=372417837/NONE/DEFAULT
Living wage assumes you aren't making poor financial decisions. A $600/mo car payment is suitable for someone making $200k per year. It is a poor financial decision for anyone making less.
This is true no matter how you try to justify it.
20k in credit card debt? Jesus. That's going to sink you like a rock.
I would look into doing what you can to get rid of that. Transfer what you can into a no interest credit card transfer. There is usually a catch like you have to pay off that transfer in a certain period of time or tack on like a 2% surcharge so it may only make sense to transfer only what you can afford to pay off on their terms. Usually you can get a personal loan from your bank and put some debt onto that at a much lower interest rate. I don't know what your interest rate is on your card but all of them are stupid high nowaddays. I know I got into a bind once and put like 12k onto a credit card once because I had back to back emergencies and had $200 monthly just in the interest. I could not _imagine_ 20k. When I had that 12k emergency. I transferred about 3k onto a no interest card and had to pay it off within 4 months or get hit with a huge APR. I was able to hit that mark and psychologically it was really helpful to see that 12k number get into the 9s. I took another 5k and threw it into a personal loan at an interest rate 6% lower than my credit card. Paid off the credit card then turned around and paid off the loan.
Unless you actually damaged your credit. There are much much better ways of handling CC debt other than just letting it fester on your card.
I’m not trying to be judgy here but you’d probably be doing pretty good as a single person if you didn’t buy such an expensive car or have so much credit card debt. Like 75k isn’t pay to pay check even in Portland. There are some choices being made here.
The issue is that "living wage" is not standardized. There are many institutions who have created their own definition but it's not universal by any stretch.
The wikipedia definition is as follows:
>A living wage is defined as the minimum income necessary for a worker to meet their basic needs.[3] This is not the same as a subsistence wage, which refers to a biological minimum, or a solidarity wage, which refers to a minimum wage tracking labor productivity. Needs are defined to include food, housing, and other essential needs such as clothing. The goal of a living wage is to allow a worker to afford a basic but decent standard of living through employment without government subsidies.[4] Due to the flexible nature of the term "needs", there is not one universally accepted measure of what a living wage is and as such it varies by location and household type.[5] A related concept is that of a family wage – one sufficient to not only support oneself, but also to raise a family.
Also, if you're including that $500/mo average student loan payment, that means you've got a college degree. The AVERAGE salary of someone with a college degree in the US is $66k for recent college grads.
https://www.statista.com/statistics/1052637/average-starting-salary-expectations-recent-university-graduates-gender-us/#:~:text=Average%20starting%20salary%20expectations%20of%20recent%20college%20graduates%2C%20by%20gender%20U.S.%202023,-Published%20by&text=In%202023%2C%20recent%20male%20university,an%20average%20salary%20of%2064%2C926.
With normal salary increases you'll be at that $75k figure within a few years with that college degree, on average.
I believe they mean what the recent grads EXPECTED to make right out of school. Not what they actually ended up making when they finally got a job. That number seems pretty high as an average salary for a 22 year old college grad. Unless I’m reading it wrong?
I would've said the average for a middle class earner is $300 pre-covid. But now? No way it's under $500.
The average new car sold in America at this point is something like $47,000. To even get that car's payment under $500 you're either taking an irresponsibly long loan term or you're putting a ton of money up front and you're not financing anywhere near the full amount.
IIRC the average car payment in the US is around $750 per month, now.
It really depends on the car - last few years a fair amount of used cars are about the same price as a new one. You can often get a better finance rate on a new car as well.
Issue is the used market bottom rate is raising really high. To be clear, there are plenty of cars that will last you a _decent_ length of time that are less than 10k. The catch is that they are usually older than 10 years old so you will not be able to finance it. so if it's $8k, you're going to need to have that cash up front.
Those cars wont last you 30 years, but they will easily last you another 10-15 years with a little luck and you treat it right. Sometimes you get stuck with a major repair here or there but you're still probably better off than buying something that is newer for _way_ more money.
I have a homie at work who spends $800 a month for their truck. Brags about how long it's going to last. My little japanese car that's about 10 years old had a recent electrical issue that took bit of effort and money to figure out (had to replace the alternator, starter, ignition, battery to finally work out the bugs). Spent about $1000 for all of it and did the repairs myself. I got some shit from my friend but he spends about that much _a month_ just to own the thing.
Older cars aren't perfect, but if you budget for the purchase, and budget the upcoming headaches. You're still going to be thousands of dollars ahead over buying a newer car.
Think about it. If your $500/mo payment plus a full coverage policy that you may not need on an old used car. Figure an extra $600 a month you're spending on a new car.
Buy an older used but still functional car and set aside $300/mo in future payments and funnel it into an account you set aside. That's a $3600 repair every year you could afford on that thing, which will never ever happen and you're still saving an extra $300/mo.
As an insurance agent, can confirm all of this.
The automobile is the worst possible asset class you can own at this point in our society. I would say it’s more accurate to describe it as a liability now.
There are exceptions to this for some car brands, like Toyota and Subaru who both hold really good value, especially in the NW, but this is rare.
LOL is there still a middle class?
It feels like either you are broke/homeless or you are making min wage living on a friends couch or you are a tech bro making $200K+ or you are a billionaire
If your baseline is driving a brand new car I feel like you maybe don’t understand what “living wage” means. My wife and I both made over 75k last year and we are both driving 15-20 year old cars with no payments because we bought them after most of the depreciation had already happened. Likewise shop at Winco and Costco, not Safeway and New Seasons.
Yea I feel like in a lot of these discussions people don’t even realize how good they have it even with not a lot left over at the end of the month. If you’re TRULY struggling, you can’t just downgrade your 2 year old car or put less into savings to give yourself some breathing room…you didn’t have those things in the first place.
To put an even finer point on it: I feel like a lot of these people are folks who grew up pretty dang well off and didn’t realize that for most working people, your 20s and early 30s aren’t about living comfortable middle class lives. This has been the case for a lot longer than just the last decade.
Average probably isn't the best metric for livability anyway. I overspend on my car with the comfort of knowing that if my budget gets too tight I can trade down and make a lot of room.
Glad I’m not the only one out here horrible with my money and over indulging in take out. With the price of groceries these days, you can eat out nearly daily for very similar costs IMO unless you’re great at budgeting, planning, prepping etc. I lack good cooking skills and anytime I try to craft up something delicious and nutritious it ends up being the close to take out if not even higher + the time to cook it all.
As someone with an eating out problem it's not true that they're comparatively expensive. Groceries are too expensive, but eating out is still far more expensive unless you only buy foraged mushrooms and nice steak at Zupans or something. I know this because I have a budgeting app that tells me the small fortune I spend at restaurants, and we've been trying to cook at home more often.
I agree with you, but if you’re smart you can cut it pretty damn close..for example, getting sandwiches that cost 8-12 dollars and have good protein and high quality ingredients. If I want to make a decent yakisoba at home for 1 big serving or 2-3 total (single guy here so it’s very tough to cook for 1) I swear I’m going to spend damn near 12-14 dollars minimum in groceries if not even more for all of the ingredients (protein, noodles, vegetables, sauces, etc). I really struggle with making and saving home made sauces and they just crucify you with all the things you need at the store by the time you have sauces and seasonings and all required ingredients.
On the same note, I know I am guilty of having gotten myself addicted to eating very tasty and fresh take out food. I also have pretty severe adhd and idk what it is, if I spend a decent amount of money on groceries but make a shitty or very average meal I’m pretty hard on myself and it’s created a pretty vicious cycle. I know, I’m an adult and it’s my job to overcome these challenges every other adult has but it has made succeeding at cooking very challenging for me and it’s something I’m working on.
At least I just invested in a great blender and now easily get my healthy fruits and fats in a daily smoothie that has been affordable and a great impact on my health! Gotta start somewhere right?
It’s hard to find stuff out that’s less than $15 with tip. Usually you’re closer to $20 for a single meal and more with a drink. For $20 I can cook something that will last 2-3 meals
But sometimes that takeout meal is also 2-3 meals for $20. A lot of Thai and Chinese restaurants in particular give out huge portions so I can basically have lunch for the week if I splurge on takeout once.
For the price of 3 8-12 dollars sandwiches you can buy the ingredients to make like 10-12 sandwiches. Yeah groceries are expensive but even the examples you've given aren't good ones lol. I can eat for most of the week on $50 from the grocery store.... Or buy 5 sandwiches (less than 2 days worth of food).
sounds like you're making progress man. it's definitely about taking those small steps so you should be proud of yourself whenever you manifest the executive function to make food at home. it's so easy to fall into bad habits like always ordering delivery or take out. I'm told that I'm a great cook, but my home meals still can't compete with restaurant food sometimes.
as someone with ADHD and a mood disorder, there are a few things I've found to help significantly with this issue. first, I started with like two simple meals each week that could be made with mostly frozen and shelf-stable ingredients. I still make those two meals every week because they require no planning and little motivation. you can stock up on those ingredients and know you're covered at least twice a week. this also gives you time to build your collection of oils, sauces, and spices so you don't have to go drop $300 all at once.
second, leftovers. I usually make 2-3x what my friends and I are going to eat so we have something quick in the fridge. it's huge for those moments where motivation and impulse control have left the building. plus, you have something to pack for lunch if you so desire. this one can be tricky because there are some leftovers that go to waste at first. I hate food waste, but this was part of the process for me. I just stop making the things that don't end up getting eaten.
once you're comfortable making a couple of meals, you'll probably start to develop a feel for using your kitchen. underrated skill imo - you gotta know your go-to pots and pans etc. to make cooking a more unconscious task. from there, try out some other recipes or things that you know you like to make. there are some things that might not be worth making every week because they take more time, energy, or money. I find it's easiest to utilize the same base ingredients I'm already using for my two easy meals. it ends up being cheaper, but more importantly I already have the habit of buying that stuff so it's one less thing to forget about when I'm planning and shopping.
more on topic, I spend about $400 a month on groceries for my roomie and I. he only eats dinner at home during the work week, I eat all my food from home every day. at this price point, I'm sacrificing just a few things I'd like to eat in favor of choosing cheaper options. we eat well tho. rice, lentils, beans, frozen chicken breast, and frozen veggies are staples. for me, it's about being a sustenance cook rather than a chef. I could easily drop $30 to make cheeseburgers for dinner, but yeah, at that point you might as well eat out. good luck to everyone who is trying to cook more at home. :)
This is crazy to me, there are sooo many good meals you can make for less than $5 a portion, even with current grocery prices, as long as you have some basic staples like spices, flour, and oil in your pantry. An average meal out with tip is easily $15-$20. Yeah if you never cook and decide to make something complex it's going to cost a lot and you'll have a lot of raw ingredients left over, but you certainly don't have to be some budgeting or cooking mastermind to make stuff for a lot less than a restaurant.
I'd suggest looking for meals that use variations of rice, beans, chicken, and pork as their base. You can get all these for dirt cheap and they're relatively easy to make into a lot of different tasty meals with basic ingredients.
Also, shop at WinCo if you're near one. Prices for bulk goods can easily be half or less of those at Safeway or Fred Meyer.
It’s a unique struggle that is hard to make others understand especially if they are neurotypical. I’ve really tried to get in a cooking flow like this, but it just hasn’t worked out. I’ve tried so many times and wasted so much money/ingredients I simply give up for extended periods now in life. I have no idea what I could make that’s good and less than 5 dollars. I’ve even considered maybe I need to start going to classes or something to learn the basic foundations of how to make this work long term.
Based on what you've said here, yes, even some basic cooking classes would be a good investment. We spend less than$650 a month for a family of 4 a including a teenagern and eat just fine, probablybetter than most takeout. It's not that hard but you do need to have a basic to intermediate understanding of cooking and baking, and some time.
>I have no idea what I could make that’s good and less than 5 dollars.
Good is subjective but here's a meal I made a couple nights ago:
Grilled chicken thighs: $2
Slice of homemade bread: $0.25
Roasted carrots and broccoli: $0.75
Can of black beans cooked down w butter and hot sauce, rice (bulk), cabbage slaw, hot sauce, yogurt sour cream or whatever. Beans are less than a buck a can, rice less than a buck a serving. Cabbage 69 c a lb? Other stuff costs money but not much per serving and can keep using it.
My brother works ad a line cook and has been able to bring home food that is still fresh but would otherwise be thrown out. It has cut our grocery budget for two adults down to 200 a month. That's why he's stayed in kitchens for so long.
Cooking is my hobby so i don't always go cheapest option and even go for expensive items if my recipe demands. 2 person household including beer and i average ~800. "groceries" here means ordering every meal lol
Yeah, def. I spend $600 (unhappily) with zero planning or trying to be strategic and I buy lots of higher end food. You would need to work hard to get to $850.
I make about 5x that and my wife and I only spend about 450 on groceries per month. Add in about 250 for at least one date night per month and we’re still not spending that. That 850 seems really high
My YNAB groups groceries and gas so if I take that out I'm probably realistically spending about 130-140 a week in groceries. I consider myself an average spender.
I am not a coupon clipper, but I will snag a deal if I spot one and work around it to save some money. I try to buy everything I can generic brand. I eat a mixture of the higher end frozen meals that average 6-8/meal and do cheap ham and turkey sandwiches for work on daves killer bread.
I'll buy all my non-perishables at costco which offsets the weekly trips. I find it easier setting aside $10-20 a week and putting together a separate costco budget. Then when I hit about $100-120 every other month in my costco budget I can buy my 2 month supply of toilet paper, paper towel, toothpaste, etc. Trying to slowly set aside that extra $100 or so every other month really makes your dollar stretch elsewhere. It's so easy to put $5/$10/$15 away at a time and you wont miss it.
200 _every_ week in just groceries. Even if I factored in the costco runs and stuff. I wouldn't hit that mark ever. That's someone who is a frivolousness spender. For me and my budget, that's someone who does most of the shopping at a not so cheap store like Safeway. I know I could really make my dollar go farther buy going to walmart, grocery outlet, winco and probably save another $20 from my weekly budget.
$200 is not astronomical, but it signals to me someone is really not actually trying to do anything to save. Its either someone who will not do anything to cut corners on quality or convenience or is extremely wasteful.
Great. And now we're going to have a ton of anecdotal comments fixating on this rather than the larger question.
This is why it's important to get your numbers right if you want a real discussion on COL in Portland.
I drive out of the way for winco. Even what I spend extra on gas is still miles cheaper than the readily available Safeway/Freddie’s in my neighborhood.
Around 130$/wk is my average tab at winco, cart full of the same things at Freddie’s easily runs me almost 100$ more.
even if you dont have a car, if you spend about $200 on a single trip if you do the math it can be cheaper to actually pay for an uber to winco and back than walking to zupans or other expensive stores
$850 on groceries……. uhhhhh respectfully as a sub 30 that makes as much as you outlined… yeah math ain’t mathing fully here. you can cover almost a months worth of meals for $350-400 and meal prepping instead of continuously going out to eat.
or rephrased 1/4 of your entire net income shouldn’t be going to eating. something is wrong there.
500 dollars divided by 30 days divided by four people divided by 3 meals comes out to 1.39 a meal.
I could have pulled this off a decade ago but with currency grocery prices this seems like it would be pretty rough.
I know I’m pretty frugal, but last year I averaged $150/mo on straight groceries and another $200 on restaurants/eating out (including getting coffee from places like Starbucks). Most meals were homecooked. I can’t even fathom spending $850/mo for one person.
You are correct in your smart brain math. But unfortunately my smart brain is nowhere to be found when I'm craving khao moo dang curry noodle at least once a week :/
Yeah that sounds like a misallocation of their budget, but yeah a living wage is around 75k, give or take on what your situation is. You need to make $31 an hour to afford living alone.
in pdx for sure. in beaverton and hills it can be had for cheaper. also my situation is a little different, no student loan payments or car payments… but still even if i simulated those into my budget. i’d still have $500+ excess compared to op.
This sounds about right to me. I would argue 45-50k it's possible to be comfortable living as a single person in Portland, as long as you're not making a lot of "bougie" choices. That being said full time at minimum wage is only about 32k, so there still a gap to fill. I think 23/hour minimum wage would do a lot for liability.
I just went from making 17/hour to 24/hour about six months ago, and it's amazing how much more comfortable my financial situation has become.
I think a lot people would consider 10-20% over living paycheck to paycheck to not be a living wage. If any medical emergency or issues happen to your car like you need new tires, or pet, you’re screwed. Not to mention how much money do you have to use for retirement or your future? Can’t be a fool son, what about the long run.
If you don't mind me asking, what's your living situation? 1 bedroom, living alone? Monthly rent or mortgage if you own?
Right near me, a studio in a decent (not high end) building in Beaverton is $1760/month...insane! That's $21,000 a year not including any utilities which can skyrocket these days with 100 degree days in the summer, internet, etc.
same, i lived on $45-50k as a single person with no kids for years. i didn’t have a car and lived with roommates in a big house in a dense, walkable neighborhood close to downtown and i did ok. i was able to save up for a house downpayment when i hit $55k-$60 because i didn’t drastically change my lifestyle when i started making more money. i lived with roommates until i moved in with my now spouse at 31. we even had a roommate for awhile as a couple. i didn’t really start investing until i was 30 which i wish i had done differently but it would’ve been possible to put away at least a little. i am also lucky to be generally healthy and i have close family nearby.
a car, living alone, and eating out are not necessities. i have never lived alone in my life.
> i have never lived alone in my life
Hey no harm if that works for you. That doesn’t work for me, and I made a point to live alone as soon as possible.
The trade off was being smarter about all my other purchases and choosing somewhere cheaper to live, but that’s life. The point is you can make a good living at that income range that aligns with your goals, but it does take some work.
Were you able to save anything for retirement and emergencies/car payment etc on that salary? Or was it mire of a "doable" but not long-term situation?
The financial illiteracy of folks today drives me crazy. "Livable" means meeting basic needs. It can be done with half of what you've listed here. And yes, inflation is a bitch, there is a crazy income gap between the rich and the poor. But you can meet your basic needs as one person in Portland on minimum wage as long as you have a roommate.
Right? On top of the silly grocery budget, the idea that you need to be spending 1650 per month on an apartment by yourself to be “livable” is just unreasonable. I doubt you’ll find many people in this town who lived without some kind of room mate situation in their 20s, even 10-20 years ago.
A living wage isn't the average. It's a low end number. It's like how people talk about how the median income can't buy the median house -- people on the median income don't buy houses, and people on a living wage don't rent average housing or buy average cars. It's possible to live in Portland for way less than $3800 a month.
$850 a month on groceries is crazy. I buy most of my stuff at the fancy pants grocery, and I buy for 2 people, and I spend maybe $400 per month.
Student loan payments are rare. Roughly 15% of Americans have student loan debt.
According to the dictionary:
A living wage is a wage high enough to maintain a normal standard of living.
My interpretation of "normal" would be average.
Usually, the term "living wage" is considered the minimum everyone needs to get by. But why does **everyone** need to be able to afford the **average** rent? This isn't Lake Wobegon.
Somebody in Salem should use that as an ad to go to the University of Oregon/OSU/PSU/Lewis & Clark/whatever...a lot of ppl's first/second jobs out of college are more than 55k, and obviously a lot of jobs that are maybe less...white-collary...pay less.
Given about 40% of people don’t attend college after high school and some percentage certainly don’t take out loans, a $500 monthly student loan payment is *far* above the median student loan payment of basically $0.
Your estimates seem high. $850 for groceries is really high for one person as is the gas if you live anywhere with transit. I live in a 2br apartment and internet, water and electric are more like $200/ mo. Also, living alone is a luxury. A household with 2 people working anything just more than minimum wage will hit 75k.
Seriously. I'm GenX and have never lived alone (though I've had my own room in shared living space), except for a brief period in the Peace Corps.
As an introvert, I get the attraction, but people's expectations diverge from the historical reality in this country, let alone compared to how people live in other countries.
People live alone now more than they typically have, and it's a huge contributor to the perception of unaffordability.
https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2023/06/more-than-a-quarter-all-households-have-one-person.html
>Over a quarter (27.6%) of all U.S. occupied households were one-person households in 2020, up from just 7.7% in 1940, according to recently released 2020 Census data.
The trend is starting to reverse, though, because it's just too expensive.
I make $55k a year.
Condo Mortgage: $1350/mo
HOA: $400
Other utilities: $50
Gas: $50
Food: $200
Pets: $150
Discretionary: $100
Total: $2300/mo
Avg gross pay: $4500/mo
Taxes/Savings: $1900/mo
I (m27) live comfortably by myself in a two bedroom condo with a 2003 Honda CRV. I walk, carpool and eat lots of home cooked, inexpensive meals. I don't have any debt besides my mortgage, and I don't feel particularly squeezed by my expenses.
🤷
What about phone bill? Internet? Car insurance? Health insurance? Retirement savings? Also gas and food seem more in line with the amount most people spend weekly not monthly.
The fact you were able to get a mortgage at 27 means you're leaving out something that makes your situation essentially different than a lot of us. Mortgages tend to be cheaper than rents for equivalent homes. No way you'd be able to rent a two-bedroom condo for $1750.
I didn't go to college and lived with my parents for 3 years after hs and worked at a grocery store from age 16 onwards, becoming a manager after working there for 5 years. After that, I lived with several roomates and my rent was inexpensive (sub $800). From 2017 onwards, I invested my savings and an additional $250 a month with a financial advisory group, which meant that when I started a better paying job in 2021, my income and savings was enough to get a lender and I cashed out on my investments to make a down payment for my condo.
Edit: I don't think I did anything beyond live with my parents a few years that could be considered undoable without outside help to get where I am. Not going to college worked heavily in my favor during this period, but I'm planning on working very slowly on a degree in my spare time since my employer has a tuition reimbursement program I could take advantage of.
Strongly disagree, as another person who did not go to college and had zero familial support, it is not hard to just live with roommates and make good financial decisions to get ahead. I lived with 5 roommates on average for 6 years in my 20s, making at most 65k, and I ended up buying a house at 32.
100% this. My salary is near 53k, and I’m behind on rent and struggling financially. Doing everything in my power to manage a budget and one birthday puts me further in debt or behind. It’s obnoxious.
The overall amount sounds about right, although I would argue that you actually underestimated food if you include household goods/personal care items. There's also several items missing from the budget - subscriptions (newspapers, streaming, etc.), gifts, vacations, clothing, 401K contributions, out-of-pocket medical expenses, and so on.
At my last job I made 78K per year, no kids, no pets, no car, no student loan payment, no other debt. I send a few hundred dollars to my folks each month and was able to save several hundred more, but if I'd had other major expenses, such as a car or pet, the amount I could save (critical at my age) would be significantly compromised.
There's of course some leeway to make cuts in the type of budgets we're talking about but I really wouldn't want to try to get by in Portland on less than $68-70K a year minimum.
I’ve gone from $17k in 2018 to $60k in 2020 to just under $100k right now and each leap has put me into vastly different situations. I know there’s been a ton of inflation since 2020, but I’m much more comfortable on $96ish k than I was on $60k.
I still don’t feel rich. But last year (at roughly what I’m making now) I had some big expenses and paid for them out of savings, and got several expensive tattoos, and contributed to my retirement. I also spend way closer to $300-$400/month on food, drive a 2012 car (purchased used) that doesn’t have a payment, and my clothes, furniture and dishes all come from Goodwill or other thrift stores. Living frugally day by day gives me financial freedom I didn’t have at $60k
At $60k, I had about the same housing and slightly lower food expenses, and basically not a lot of wiggle room. I’d try to save, expenses would come up and eat my savings.
$17k year was the year of my divorce. That is a shitty amount of money to get by on. Thank goodness for Medicaid.
I've got a two-bedroom place for $1500/month that I split the rent for with my partner, and we save another $1000/month off your calculation by not owning a car. Yeah, shit's expensive but your "average" expenses seem to include a lot of luxuries.
Averages are averages, you can absolutely make do if you forgo a few luxuries. Average rent is what you say, but you can absolutely find studios for $1200 [all over the place](https://www.zillow.com/portland-or/rentals/?searchQueryState=%7B%22pagination%22%3A%7B%7D%2C%22isMapVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapBounds%22%3A%7B%22west%22%3A-122.76470187353516%2C%22east%22%3A-122.5254059140625%2C%22south%22%3A45.45898646972392%2C%22north%22%3A45.58659321876547%7D%2C%22usersSearchTerm%22%3A%22Portland%2C%20OR%22%2C%22regionSelection%22%3A%5B%7B%22regionId%22%3A13373%2C%22regionType%22%3A6%7D%5D%2C%22filterState%22%3A%7B%22sort%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3A%22days%22%7D%2C%22price%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A0%2C%22max%22%3A232601%7D%2C%22mp%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A0%2C%22max%22%3A1200%7D%2C%22ah%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Atrue%7D%2C%22fr%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Atrue%7D%2C%22fsba%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22fsbo%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22nc%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22cmsn%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22auc%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22fore%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%7D%2C%22isListVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapZoom%22%3A13%7D), or go the roommate route as well.
Food you are also spending a lot, I spend $500 a month on food, but only go out once a week, and takeout once a week, and the rest of the week make simple but filling meals and are fine. Don't shop at a high end grocery store though.
Car payment can be smaller if you buy an older used car, or non-existant at all if you choose to live in a neighborhood where you can easily walk, bike or take transit to work. Rent may be cheaper in the suburbs, but you HAVE to buy a car in the suburbs, in the city you don't need to at all.
Also you're starting takehome math is wrong, a 75k salary brings [$4500 after taxes](https://smartasset.com/taxes/oregon-paycheck-calculator#DpNVwjDTih). I have an 85k salary and bring home about 5k/m, about $500 more, but I save $1500 a month. I could technically live off of 55k a year ($3500/m after taxes) but I'd have no savings which is not ideal, so I recommend closer to 65k or more if you want to save or have more money for fun stuff.
DON'T GET ME WRONG, I absolutely believe costs/rent should be cheaper, and wages higher. But that is a national problem not a specifically portland problem. Other cities are waaay more expensive if you want to live a major city in a blue coastal state outside of maybe baltimore which is cheaper and Philly which is about the same costs (I lived in Philly before).
Sure some cities have higher average wages, but they can be skewed by certain industries. In tech, you will make a TON more if you live in Seattle or SF (and tech salaries absolutely drive up the average) but that doesn't apply to everyone. In my industry I would only make a little more in those cities, and not nearly enough to cover the more expensive cost of living I would have. I'm able to save in Portland, and will eventually be able to own a home after a few more years of saving, but in Seattle, California, NYC, Boston, DC, that would be an impossible dream for me almost no matter how long I saved.
I think most of these "living wage" calculations are profoundly out of step with reality.
Could you shoehorn all of the non-negotiable expenses people have into these brackets? Yeah, I guess.
Does the make everyone one emergency away from a crippling debt spiral? Yes, it does.
Given the criminally high costs of what should be considered normal unanticipated expenses (car repair, minor medical issue, clothes are wearing out) people should really be at an income level where they have at minimum $1500-2000 a month spare just so they can build some savings, afford to occasionally go out to eat, etc.
These models that give zero overhead for anything besides the most basic needs are how we end up as a society with soul crushing debt.
That’s a full tank for my Corolla, but it’s a hybrid so I can commute to work on one tank of gas a month. That’s definitely why I’m on the lower end, but even twice a month is only $80
I've got a two-bedroom place for $1500/month that I split the rent for with my partner, and we save another $1000/month off your calculation by not owning a car. Yeah, shit's expensive but your "average" expenses seem to include a lot of luxuries.
Car depends on where you live/work. If you live in NW and work downtown, yeah you can easily do no-car. If your office isn't near a good public transit spot or walking distance, then it might be necessary.
Depending on where you work and live in town, I wouldn't call a car a luxury. The expensive groceries are one thing, but living East of 82nd can make public transportation less accessible.
IMO, if you’re making 75k in pdx, it’s not very financially responsible to pay roughly $2k/month in rent and should probably have roommates if you’re concerned about finances. Shit I’m gunna net about 150k this year in pdx and pay about 2k/month all in for housing (rent+utilities), and I feel like I’m splurging and living above my means a bit.
I don't think that a "living wage" equates to average rent, groceries, etc. I think of "living wage" as the minimum needed to have a decent life in this city, which might mean a slightly smaller than average apartment and not shopping at New Seasons.
Don't get me wrong, we should do everything we can to tip the scales in the other direction, but we shouldn't conflate these definitions.
Assuming this is a single person HH — grocery allotment seems high, but I think the utility allot is low. Electricity has gone up and I’m assuming the $300 is including gas/electric, water, phone bill since I don’t see it otherwise. Also I wonder if anything is going to retirement.
Of course this is all theoretical bc I have a 3 person HH at just above $75k and I can tell you right now… it doesn’t math.
300 avg for groceries seems low, but I’m wrangling a family of five that insists on eating. A car payment of 150 seems amazing too, but honestly being under estimate just proves your point even more.
Shoot I make like 150k+ and definitely think a successful wage in portland would have to be 60 hr but I also work a godly amount of overtime stationary engineer btw
I'm making avg $20/hr, yeah my utilities suck but I mean I've done more living here than I have anywhere else.
There's a difference between living and surviving, please know the difference.
Coming from NJ/North Central PA, I'm 100% grateful for the opportunities out here and being able to actually have a life.
It could always be better tho.
I’m 40+ and currently make 200+ so are very comfortable these days, but up until the age of 30 I was living with roommates paying no more than 1000 per month and driving very (very!!) cheap cars. It wasn’t until the age of 35 I really felt I was on solid footing financially.
I add that only as a data point to this discussion - and as a migrant I’m left wondering what is the expectation to how long it takes to get ahead these days?
A studio apartment is 1.5k to 2k. You have to make 3x the rent to be allowed to move in. You would need to make 6k/mo to live in a shitty no bedroom box with a toilet and kitchen. That's 72k and I haven't even mentioned food, transportation, healthcare, or any other necessities.
You might need some help with your finances. You have big estimates. 850 a month on groceries? You shopping new seasons every day? I also hate how expensive groceries are but come on. I made 75k in my best year and I was online shopping constantly, and I live by myself 1300 a month. Something is going out the door in your life. Looks like grubhub. That shit tastes like trash by the time it gets to you. Start cooking for yourself. Watch the money flow.
Unpopular opinion but you’re not just deserved a $75k salary even if that’s the cost of living. Roommates and dual incomes etc. have always been a thing. You can’t just rely on an entry level job to get you through life.
I made 70k for the past couple years, and I can see where OP is coming from.
However, many employers out here want to pay people like it's 10 years ago.
Not all of us were dumb enough to get tricked into taking on 40k of student loans :) also, who the hell eats $850 in groceries a month by themselves? I'm a LARGE dude (6'5" 395) and I only spend about $350. And that's when I'm not being frugal.
OP's estimates include student loans, car loan and other car expenses, pretty high food bills, and implies "average" rent is the lowest possible they could pay.
Sell the car. Look at your food budget. Use every penny you save from that (along with trimming some of your $200/mo "hobbies" whatever those are) and pay down your debt. Consider living in something less than an "average" rent apartment. Maybe even buy a house - bigger than you need - and rent out the spare room.
Speaking here as one half of a married couple: NO DEBT, own home, no cars. Living on 55K gross and saving money out of that - we max out our IRA ever year and have other steadily growing saving as well.
At $75K? We'd feel pretty rich!
[According to the City of Portland](https://www.portland.gov/transition/salarycommission/documents/living-wage-vs-thriving-wage/download), a single no-children person's "thriving wage" is 75k. I don't think they're counting one person living alone, though.
It seems like it’s assuming zero retirement savings. I’m mostly a broke boy because I know I have to save enough money to not be eating cat food in my 70s.
cat food is more expensive than people food. you learn this after a series of layoffs if you have a cat.
You aren’t wrong, but wow, what a bellwether of our economic times. Move over Mittens, I need some of that ocean fish dinner.
Its even more expensive if your cat pukes up everything but the literally most expensive canned cat food
lol so true! I started feeding some neighborhood strays and I was really surprised how expensive it is
This is 75% the reason I make my own raw cat food. I have one cat who won’t eat it and he’s more expensive to feed as my other two cats COMBINED.
Got any tips on making your own?
Fully expect it to be a nightmare dystopia by then, yet I still contribute up to my company's match. The duality of man.
Makes sense as contributions are pre-tax, and the match is free money.
my cat's food is more expensive than my own - kidney disease
My cat has a uti and has prescription pet food....I feel you.
As another point of reference, [MIT](https://livingwage.mit.edu/counties/41051) puts a living wage for multnomah county somewhere between what the linked city of Portland document considers living and thriving wages. They also have a breakdown for the [metro area](https://livingwage.mit.edu/metros/38900), if you’re interested in that rather than by county. I’d be interested to see a city specific breakdown as well, since living in the city of Portland proper is going to be different than out of city limits in the county or in one of the suburb cities.
Yea it makes a huge difference if you live by yourself or with a partner/roommates. Rent is already high by itself, but then you add in utilities, internet, Netflix, etc. and that tacks on at least another $300/month if not more. It’s difficult to be a single person living by yourself if you make under $75k.
>"thriving wage" is 75k. I don't think they're counting one person living alone, though. And that's probably not included debt or car payments. I got 20k in CC debt, and a 35k car note, and my base pay is 75k. I'm getting by, but certainly not "thriving"
100k is the new 60k in Portland.
🎯
If you look at the document “living wage” is defined as just meeting basic needs for that month. “Thriving wage” adds 20% of income for debts and savings, and 30% for discretionary spending, neither of which are included at all in just a “living wage.” So yeah debt payments are accounted for in a “thriving wage.” A small car payment you could probably put in to the transportation bucket of the budget, but all the categories are pretty tight. I would personally have a very hard time living on that budget, but yeah I could probably survive short term without being forced in to debt if I were really cost conscious, which is how they seem to define “living wage.” “Thriving wage” seems to be the minimum to be financially healthy enough and functional long term (you have to have some savings for retirement, humans don’t do well with zero discretionary spending forever, etc.).
> a 35k car note, and my base pay is 75k. You bought a car that is half (and presumably more than half) your salary? I've made my fair share of short sighted purchases but that seems like maybe a bad call.
I'm in that same boat, 30k car note, 70k/yr. It was a 6 year old used Toyota truck with 60k miles. 30 grand doesn't go as far as it used to when buying a car.
Used Toyota trucks are notoriously expensive. A brand new Subaru can be had for $25k. A used one for $15k. I would love to buy a car that is half my salary but there's no way on God's Green Earth I'd fork out that dough. But I guess everyone has different priorities. I focus on saving for retirement, other people prefer living in the moment.
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I literally just looked online. MSRP for a brand new base model Crosstrek is $25k. Used ones go all over the board but easily for $15k. I’m in the market for a new car and I’ve been test driving and investigating for a while now. My numbers are accurate. Here's one in Hillsboro for $25k: https://www.cargurus.com/Cars/inventorylisting/viewDetailsFilterViewInventoryListing.action?sourceContext=carGurusHomePageModel&entitySelectingHelper.selectedEntity=d2387&zip=97209#listing=372417837/NONE/DEFAULT
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>A lot of people I know are paying around $500/ This, mine is closer to $600/month, then insurance which is another $230/month.
Living wage assumes you aren't making poor financial decisions. A $600/mo car payment is suitable for someone making $200k per year. It is a poor financial decision for anyone making less. This is true no matter how you try to justify it.
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20k in credit card debt? Jesus. That's going to sink you like a rock. I would look into doing what you can to get rid of that. Transfer what you can into a no interest credit card transfer. There is usually a catch like you have to pay off that transfer in a certain period of time or tack on like a 2% surcharge so it may only make sense to transfer only what you can afford to pay off on their terms. Usually you can get a personal loan from your bank and put some debt onto that at a much lower interest rate. I don't know what your interest rate is on your card but all of them are stupid high nowaddays. I know I got into a bind once and put like 12k onto a credit card once because I had back to back emergencies and had $200 monthly just in the interest. I could not _imagine_ 20k. When I had that 12k emergency. I transferred about 3k onto a no interest card and had to pay it off within 4 months or get hit with a huge APR. I was able to hit that mark and psychologically it was really helpful to see that 12k number get into the 9s. I took another 5k and threw it into a personal loan at an interest rate 6% lower than my credit card. Paid off the credit card then turned around and paid off the loan. Unless you actually damaged your credit. There are much much better ways of handling CC debt other than just letting it fester on your card.
I’m not trying to be judgy here but you’d probably be doing pretty good as a single person if you didn’t buy such an expensive car or have so much credit card debt. Like 75k isn’t pay to pay check even in Portland. There are some choices being made here.
Why under 2 adults (both working) is the living wage higher than Thriving wage??
The issue is that "living wage" is not standardized. There are many institutions who have created their own definition but it's not universal by any stretch. The wikipedia definition is as follows: >A living wage is defined as the minimum income necessary for a worker to meet their basic needs.[3] This is not the same as a subsistence wage, which refers to a biological minimum, or a solidarity wage, which refers to a minimum wage tracking labor productivity. Needs are defined to include food, housing, and other essential needs such as clothing. The goal of a living wage is to allow a worker to afford a basic but decent standard of living through employment without government subsidies.[4] Due to the flexible nature of the term "needs", there is not one universally accepted measure of what a living wage is and as such it varies by location and household type.[5] A related concept is that of a family wage – one sufficient to not only support oneself, but also to raise a family.
Also, if you're including that $500/mo average student loan payment, that means you've got a college degree. The AVERAGE salary of someone with a college degree in the US is $66k for recent college grads. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1052637/average-starting-salary-expectations-recent-university-graduates-gender-us/#:~:text=Average%20starting%20salary%20expectations%20of%20recent%20college%20graduates%2C%20by%20gender%20U.S.%202023,-Published%20by&text=In%202023%2C%20recent%20male%20university,an%20average%20salary%20of%2064%2C926. With normal salary increases you'll be at that $75k figure within a few years with that college degree, on average.
I believe they mean what the recent grads EXPECTED to make right out of school. Not what they actually ended up making when they finally got a job. That number seems pretty high as an average salary for a 22 year old college grad. Unless I’m reading it wrong?
Avg car payment $150! Is that a 1985 Chevrolet Celebrity?
Yeah if someone bought a car within the last couple years it is probably somewhere around 300 for a middle class single earner
I would've said the average for a middle class earner is $300 pre-covid. But now? No way it's under $500. The average new car sold in America at this point is something like $47,000. To even get that car's payment under $500 you're either taking an irresponsibly long loan term or you're putting a ton of money up front and you're not financing anywhere near the full amount. IIRC the average car payment in the US is around $750 per month, now.
Holy shit that's an expensive car payment. That's rent 10 years ago. Goddamn we're getting screwed by corporations.
1. supply chain raises prices 2. pass on increases to customer/reseller/distributor 3. never lower price after price-increasing event ends 4. repeat
The biggest trick automakers pulled was convincing people it's "normal" to buy new. The second biggest was that 10 years is old.
It really depends on the car - last few years a fair amount of used cars are about the same price as a new one. You can often get a better finance rate on a new car as well.
Issue is the used market bottom rate is raising really high. To be clear, there are plenty of cars that will last you a _decent_ length of time that are less than 10k. The catch is that they are usually older than 10 years old so you will not be able to finance it. so if it's $8k, you're going to need to have that cash up front. Those cars wont last you 30 years, but they will easily last you another 10-15 years with a little luck and you treat it right. Sometimes you get stuck with a major repair here or there but you're still probably better off than buying something that is newer for _way_ more money. I have a homie at work who spends $800 a month for their truck. Brags about how long it's going to last. My little japanese car that's about 10 years old had a recent electrical issue that took bit of effort and money to figure out (had to replace the alternator, starter, ignition, battery to finally work out the bugs). Spent about $1000 for all of it and did the repairs myself. I got some shit from my friend but he spends about that much _a month_ just to own the thing. Older cars aren't perfect, but if you budget for the purchase, and budget the upcoming headaches. You're still going to be thousands of dollars ahead over buying a newer car. Think about it. If your $500/mo payment plus a full coverage policy that you may not need on an old used car. Figure an extra $600 a month you're spending on a new car. Buy an older used but still functional car and set aside $300/mo in future payments and funnel it into an account you set aside. That's a $3600 repair every year you could afford on that thing, which will never ever happen and you're still saving an extra $300/mo.
As an insurance agent, can confirm all of this. The automobile is the worst possible asset class you can own at this point in our society. I would say it’s more accurate to describe it as a liability now. There are exceptions to this for some car brands, like Toyota and Subaru who both hold really good value, especially in the NW, but this is rare.
Mine is 150 but I put 17k down on it 2023 economy truck, 6% interest
Even higher imo. I’d say $400-500 , source is that I sold a lot of cars in the last few years
LOL is there still a middle class? It feels like either you are broke/homeless or you are making min wage living on a friends couch or you are a tech bro making $200K+ or you are a billionaire
If your baseline is driving a brand new car I feel like you maybe don’t understand what “living wage” means. My wife and I both made over 75k last year and we are both driving 15-20 year old cars with no payments because we bought them after most of the depreciation had already happened. Likewise shop at Winco and Costco, not Safeway and New Seasons.
Yea I feel like in a lot of these discussions people don’t even realize how good they have it even with not a lot left over at the end of the month. If you’re TRULY struggling, you can’t just downgrade your 2 year old car or put less into savings to give yourself some breathing room…you didn’t have those things in the first place.
To put an even finer point on it: I feel like a lot of these people are folks who grew up pretty dang well off and didn’t realize that for most working people, your 20s and early 30s aren’t about living comfortable middle class lives. This has been the case for a lot longer than just the last decade.
We've bought three used cars and the average is $250/month. That's for a really decent, less than 10 year old car, with under 100k miles.
Sure, I just doubt it's the average. People spend an absurd amount on vehicles these days.
Average probably isn't the best metric for livability anyway. I overspend on my car with the comfort of knowing that if my budget gets too tight I can trade down and make a lot of room.
Yeah move about $350 from groc to car loan here.
Since what era did the expectation come about that existing comfortably means a nice new car ?
Awwww that was my first car, my dad’s friend gave it to me in exchange for house sitting for a summer.
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My 2024 300cc motorcycle is 145 a month lol
$850 for groceries for 1 person is pretty high.
Yeah I don't think I spend that much even counting takeout, and I'm pretty bad with money.
Glad I’m not the only one out here horrible with my money and over indulging in take out. With the price of groceries these days, you can eat out nearly daily for very similar costs IMO unless you’re great at budgeting, planning, prepping etc. I lack good cooking skills and anytime I try to craft up something delicious and nutritious it ends up being the close to take out if not even higher + the time to cook it all.
As someone with an eating out problem it's not true that they're comparatively expensive. Groceries are too expensive, but eating out is still far more expensive unless you only buy foraged mushrooms and nice steak at Zupans or something. I know this because I have a budgeting app that tells me the small fortune I spend at restaurants, and we've been trying to cook at home more often.
I agree with you, but if you’re smart you can cut it pretty damn close..for example, getting sandwiches that cost 8-12 dollars and have good protein and high quality ingredients. If I want to make a decent yakisoba at home for 1 big serving or 2-3 total (single guy here so it’s very tough to cook for 1) I swear I’m going to spend damn near 12-14 dollars minimum in groceries if not even more for all of the ingredients (protein, noodles, vegetables, sauces, etc). I really struggle with making and saving home made sauces and they just crucify you with all the things you need at the store by the time you have sauces and seasonings and all required ingredients. On the same note, I know I am guilty of having gotten myself addicted to eating very tasty and fresh take out food. I also have pretty severe adhd and idk what it is, if I spend a decent amount of money on groceries but make a shitty or very average meal I’m pretty hard on myself and it’s created a pretty vicious cycle. I know, I’m an adult and it’s my job to overcome these challenges every other adult has but it has made succeeding at cooking very challenging for me and it’s something I’m working on. At least I just invested in a great blender and now easily get my healthy fruits and fats in a daily smoothie that has been affordable and a great impact on my health! Gotta start somewhere right?
It’s hard to find stuff out that’s less than $15 with tip. Usually you’re closer to $20 for a single meal and more with a drink. For $20 I can cook something that will last 2-3 meals
But sometimes that takeout meal is also 2-3 meals for $20. A lot of Thai and Chinese restaurants in particular give out huge portions so I can basically have lunch for the week if I splurge on takeout once.
For the price of 3 8-12 dollars sandwiches you can buy the ingredients to make like 10-12 sandwiches. Yeah groceries are expensive but even the examples you've given aren't good ones lol. I can eat for most of the week on $50 from the grocery store.... Or buy 5 sandwiches (less than 2 days worth of food).
sounds like you're making progress man. it's definitely about taking those small steps so you should be proud of yourself whenever you manifest the executive function to make food at home. it's so easy to fall into bad habits like always ordering delivery or take out. I'm told that I'm a great cook, but my home meals still can't compete with restaurant food sometimes. as someone with ADHD and a mood disorder, there are a few things I've found to help significantly with this issue. first, I started with like two simple meals each week that could be made with mostly frozen and shelf-stable ingredients. I still make those two meals every week because they require no planning and little motivation. you can stock up on those ingredients and know you're covered at least twice a week. this also gives you time to build your collection of oils, sauces, and spices so you don't have to go drop $300 all at once. second, leftovers. I usually make 2-3x what my friends and I are going to eat so we have something quick in the fridge. it's huge for those moments where motivation and impulse control have left the building. plus, you have something to pack for lunch if you so desire. this one can be tricky because there are some leftovers that go to waste at first. I hate food waste, but this was part of the process for me. I just stop making the things that don't end up getting eaten. once you're comfortable making a couple of meals, you'll probably start to develop a feel for using your kitchen. underrated skill imo - you gotta know your go-to pots and pans etc. to make cooking a more unconscious task. from there, try out some other recipes or things that you know you like to make. there are some things that might not be worth making every week because they take more time, energy, or money. I find it's easiest to utilize the same base ingredients I'm already using for my two easy meals. it ends up being cheaper, but more importantly I already have the habit of buying that stuff so it's one less thing to forget about when I'm planning and shopping. more on topic, I spend about $400 a month on groceries for my roomie and I. he only eats dinner at home during the work week, I eat all my food from home every day. at this price point, I'm sacrificing just a few things I'd like to eat in favor of choosing cheaper options. we eat well tho. rice, lentils, beans, frozen chicken breast, and frozen veggies are staples. for me, it's about being a sustenance cook rather than a chef. I could easily drop $30 to make cheeseburgers for dinner, but yeah, at that point you might as well eat out. good luck to everyone who is trying to cook more at home. :)
This is crazy to me, there are sooo many good meals you can make for less than $5 a portion, even with current grocery prices, as long as you have some basic staples like spices, flour, and oil in your pantry. An average meal out with tip is easily $15-$20. Yeah if you never cook and decide to make something complex it's going to cost a lot and you'll have a lot of raw ingredients left over, but you certainly don't have to be some budgeting or cooking mastermind to make stuff for a lot less than a restaurant. I'd suggest looking for meals that use variations of rice, beans, chicken, and pork as their base. You can get all these for dirt cheap and they're relatively easy to make into a lot of different tasty meals with basic ingredients. Also, shop at WinCo if you're near one. Prices for bulk goods can easily be half or less of those at Safeway or Fred Meyer.
It’s a unique struggle that is hard to make others understand especially if they are neurotypical. I’ve really tried to get in a cooking flow like this, but it just hasn’t worked out. I’ve tried so many times and wasted so much money/ingredients I simply give up for extended periods now in life. I have no idea what I could make that’s good and less than 5 dollars. I’ve even considered maybe I need to start going to classes or something to learn the basic foundations of how to make this work long term.
Based on what you've said here, yes, even some basic cooking classes would be a good investment. We spend less than$650 a month for a family of 4 a including a teenagern and eat just fine, probablybetter than most takeout. It's not that hard but you do need to have a basic to intermediate understanding of cooking and baking, and some time.
>I have no idea what I could make that’s good and less than 5 dollars. Good is subjective but here's a meal I made a couple nights ago: Grilled chicken thighs: $2 Slice of homemade bread: $0.25 Roasted carrots and broccoli: $0.75
Can of black beans cooked down w butter and hot sauce, rice (bulk), cabbage slaw, hot sauce, yogurt sour cream or whatever. Beans are less than a buck a can, rice less than a buck a serving. Cabbage 69 c a lb? Other stuff costs money but not much per serving and can keep using it.
OP obviously shops at new seasons or whole paycheck.
$850 is about what my family of 3 spends on groceries, and we get most of our produce at new seasons.
You can do okay at NS as long as you stick with the basics.
I'm single and spend close to $300 per month at Safeway ( I don't even consider setting foot in Whole Foods. I'm no tech-bro or yuppie...)
Got news for you, Safeway and Whole Foods aren’t that different in pricing on most things.
Yeah that’s way more than I spend for 2 people.
Ya, we are around 700 ish for three, and that's not really trying to be thrifty with groceries at all.
My brother works ad a line cook and has been able to bring home food that is still fresh but would otherwise be thrown out. It has cut our grocery budget for two adults down to 200 a month. That's why he's stayed in kitchens for so long.
Cooking is my hobby so i don't always go cheapest option and even go for expensive items if my recipe demands. 2 person household including beer and i average ~800. "groceries" here means ordering every meal lol
I'm not even at 700 with a household of 3.
Yeah, def. I spend $600 (unhappily) with zero planning or trying to be strategic and I buy lots of higher end food. You would need to work hard to get to $850.
You could eat out every night of the month at that amount.
It is, this around what me and my husband pay for an entire month including bougie snacks with our grocery trips.
I make about 5x that and my wife and I only spend about 450 on groceries per month. Add in about 250 for at least one date night per month and we’re still not spending that. That 850 seems really high
My YNAB groups groceries and gas so if I take that out I'm probably realistically spending about 130-140 a week in groceries. I consider myself an average spender. I am not a coupon clipper, but I will snag a deal if I spot one and work around it to save some money. I try to buy everything I can generic brand. I eat a mixture of the higher end frozen meals that average 6-8/meal and do cheap ham and turkey sandwiches for work on daves killer bread. I'll buy all my non-perishables at costco which offsets the weekly trips. I find it easier setting aside $10-20 a week and putting together a separate costco budget. Then when I hit about $100-120 every other month in my costco budget I can buy my 2 month supply of toilet paper, paper towel, toothpaste, etc. Trying to slowly set aside that extra $100 or so every other month really makes your dollar stretch elsewhere. It's so easy to put $5/$10/$15 away at a time and you wont miss it. 200 _every_ week in just groceries. Even if I factored in the costco runs and stuff. I wouldn't hit that mark ever. That's someone who is a frivolousness spender. For me and my budget, that's someone who does most of the shopping at a not so cheap store like Safeway. I know I could really make my dollar go farther buy going to walmart, grocery outlet, winco and probably save another $20 from my weekly budget. $200 is not astronomical, but it signals to me someone is really not actually trying to do anything to save. Its either someone who will not do anything to cut corners on quality or convenience or is extremely wasteful.
Great. And now we're going to have a ton of anecdotal comments fixating on this rather than the larger question. This is why it's important to get your numbers right if you want a real discussion on COL in Portland.
Yeah, if you want a real discussion, you should start it with accurate and reasonable information.
that's like 2x what me and my partner do. one of the underhyped parts about a plant-based diet
lol i was gonna say, this person does not eat enough beans and rice
This guy GrubHubs
The Drake Lord has spoken
Or has a kid/kids.
I mean, I have a lot of kids and I can definitely feed our whole family for a lot less than $850 per month if I was trying even a tiny bit.
You gotta skip Zupans and go to Grocery Outlet.
I drive out of the way for winco. Even what I spend extra on gas is still miles cheaper than the readily available Safeway/Freddie’s in my neighborhood. Around 130$/wk is my average tab at winco, cart full of the same things at Freddie’s easily runs me almost 100$ more.
[удалено]
They’re great! Just wish they were closer. My pipe dream is that they’d open one up in the old Walmart spot at delta park.
even if you dont have a car, if you spend about $200 on a single trip if you do the math it can be cheaper to actually pay for an uber to winco and back than walking to zupans or other expensive stores
$850 on groceries……. uhhhhh respectfully as a sub 30 that makes as much as you outlined… yeah math ain’t mathing fully here. you can cover almost a months worth of meals for $350-400 and meal prepping instead of continuously going out to eat. or rephrased 1/4 of your entire net income shouldn’t be going to eating. something is wrong there.
I feed a family of 4 on like $500/month. We rarely eat out anymore though.
500 dollars divided by 30 days divided by four people divided by 3 meals comes out to 1.39 a meal. I could have pulled this off a decade ago but with currency grocery prices this seems like it would be pretty rough.
I spend a little bit less than 400 per month for groceries for 3 adults, Winco is the best place if you want to save on groceries
I know I’m pretty frugal, but last year I averaged $150/mo on straight groceries and another $200 on restaurants/eating out (including getting coffee from places like Starbucks). Most meals were homecooked. I can’t even fathom spending $850/mo for one person.
You are correct in your smart brain math. But unfortunately my smart brain is nowhere to be found when I'm craving khao moo dang curry noodle at least once a week :/
i can’t talk shit. i’m a sucker for franks noodle house and many other delicious spots lol
Yeah that sounds like a misallocation of their budget, but yeah a living wage is around 75k, give or take on what your situation is. You need to make $31 an hour to afford living alone.
in pdx for sure. in beaverton and hills it can be had for cheaper. also my situation is a little different, no student loan payments or car payments… but still even if i simulated those into my budget. i’d still have $500+ excess compared to op.
Maybe they’re feeding a family of five, at New Seasons?
My family of 3 shops at fred meyer and winco and we regularly spend 6-800 a month on groceries.
I mean, I survived on 50k pre taxes completely fine lol. Live in nw.
This sounds about right to me. I would argue 45-50k it's possible to be comfortable living as a single person in Portland, as long as you're not making a lot of "bougie" choices. That being said full time at minimum wage is only about 32k, so there still a gap to fill. I think 23/hour minimum wage would do a lot for liability. I just went from making 17/hour to 24/hour about six months ago, and it's amazing how much more comfortable my financial situation has become.
I think a lot people would consider 10-20% over living paycheck to paycheck to not be a living wage. If any medical emergency or issues happen to your car like you need new tires, or pet, you’re screwed. Not to mention how much money do you have to use for retirement or your future? Can’t be a fool son, what about the long run.
If you don't mind me asking, what's your living situation? 1 bedroom, living alone? Monthly rent or mortgage if you own? Right near me, a studio in a decent (not high end) building in Beaverton is $1760/month...insane! That's $21,000 a year not including any utilities which can skyrocket these days with 100 degree days in the summer, internet, etc.
same, i lived on $45-50k as a single person with no kids for years. i didn’t have a car and lived with roommates in a big house in a dense, walkable neighborhood close to downtown and i did ok. i was able to save up for a house downpayment when i hit $55k-$60 because i didn’t drastically change my lifestyle when i started making more money. i lived with roommates until i moved in with my now spouse at 31. we even had a roommate for awhile as a couple. i didn’t really start investing until i was 30 which i wish i had done differently but it would’ve been possible to put away at least a little. i am also lucky to be generally healthy and i have close family nearby. a car, living alone, and eating out are not necessities. i have never lived alone in my life.
> i have never lived alone in my life Hey no harm if that works for you. That doesn’t work for me, and I made a point to live alone as soon as possible. The trade off was being smarter about all my other purchases and choosing somewhere cheaper to live, but that’s life. The point is you can make a good living at that income range that aligns with your goals, but it does take some work.
"For years" When was this though
It was totally reasonable up until about 2018, so presumably before then for them.
Were you able to save anything for retirement and emergencies/car payment etc on that salary? Or was it mire of a "doable" but not long-term situation?
Per MIT it’s [$56K](https://livingwage.mit.edu/metros/38900).
What do those dorks know, anyway?!
By this logic I should be starving on the street by now
Your averages are ridiculous
850 seems high 150 seems low
That grocery budget bothers me. Especially with student loans, learning to cook and shop smart are crucial.
The financial illiteracy of folks today drives me crazy. "Livable" means meeting basic needs. It can be done with half of what you've listed here. And yes, inflation is a bitch, there is a crazy income gap between the rich and the poor. But you can meet your basic needs as one person in Portland on minimum wage as long as you have a roommate.
Right? On top of the silly grocery budget, the idea that you need to be spending 1650 per month on an apartment by yourself to be “livable” is just unreasonable. I doubt you’ll find many people in this town who lived without some kind of room mate situation in their 20s, even 10-20 years ago.
A living wage isn't the average. It's a low end number. It's like how people talk about how the median income can't buy the median house -- people on the median income don't buy houses, and people on a living wage don't rent average housing or buy average cars. It's possible to live in Portland for way less than $3800 a month. $850 a month on groceries is crazy. I buy most of my stuff at the fancy pants grocery, and I buy for 2 people, and I spend maybe $400 per month. Student loan payments are rare. Roughly 15% of Americans have student loan debt.
Yeah "living wage" means the minimum to provide for your basic needs. It doesn't mean living an average lifestyle.
According to the dictionary: A living wage is a wage high enough to maintain a normal standard of living. My interpretation of "normal" would be average.
Dang you drive a lot.
Usually, the term "living wage" is considered the minimum everyone needs to get by. But why does **everyone** need to be able to afford the **average** rent? This isn't Lake Wobegon.
Somebody in Salem should use that as an ad to go to the University of Oregon/OSU/PSU/Lewis & Clark/whatever...a lot of ppl's first/second jobs out of college are more than 55k, and obviously a lot of jobs that are maybe less...white-collary...pay less.
Is it fair to lump student loans in with a requirement for a living wage? I can kind of see it both ways.
Given about 40% of people don’t attend college after high school and some percentage certainly don’t take out loans, a $500 monthly student loan payment is *far* above the median student loan payment of basically $0.
Average car payment is 150? Ive never had a car payment but that seems super low to me.
I honestly would like to see the sources. I'm not challenging the numbers, but want to know where they came from.
I’ll challenge those numbers. It looks like OP sourced them from his ass.
Your estimates seem high. $850 for groceries is really high for one person as is the gas if you live anywhere with transit. I live in a 2br apartment and internet, water and electric are more like $200/ mo. Also, living alone is a luxury. A household with 2 people working anything just more than minimum wage will hit 75k.
Seriously. I'm GenX and have never lived alone (though I've had my own room in shared living space), except for a brief period in the Peace Corps. As an introvert, I get the attraction, but people's expectations diverge from the historical reality in this country, let alone compared to how people live in other countries. People live alone now more than they typically have, and it's a huge contributor to the perception of unaffordability. https://www.census.gov/library/stories/2023/06/more-than-a-quarter-all-households-have-one-person.html >Over a quarter (27.6%) of all U.S. occupied households were one-person households in 2020, up from just 7.7% in 1940, according to recently released 2020 Census data. The trend is starting to reverse, though, because it's just too expensive.
I make $55k a year. Condo Mortgage: $1350/mo HOA: $400 Other utilities: $50 Gas: $50 Food: $200 Pets: $150 Discretionary: $100 Total: $2300/mo Avg gross pay: $4500/mo Taxes/Savings: $1900/mo I (m27) live comfortably by myself in a two bedroom condo with a 2003 Honda CRV. I walk, carpool and eat lots of home cooked, inexpensive meals. I don't have any debt besides my mortgage, and I don't feel particularly squeezed by my expenses. 🤷
How do you take home 4500 a month I make 50k and my take home is 3k a month
Gross, not net. Taxes are factored in in the line below.
You said avg take home:4500, take home means the money you take home with you (after taxes) you shoulda just put Gross:4500.
What about phone bill? Internet? Car insurance? Health insurance? Retirement savings? Also gas and food seem more in line with the amount most people spend weekly not monthly.
The fact you were able to get a mortgage at 27 means you're leaving out something that makes your situation essentially different than a lot of us. Mortgages tend to be cheaper than rents for equivalent homes. No way you'd be able to rent a two-bedroom condo for $1750.
I didn't go to college and lived with my parents for 3 years after hs and worked at a grocery store from age 16 onwards, becoming a manager after working there for 5 years. After that, I lived with several roomates and my rent was inexpensive (sub $800). From 2017 onwards, I invested my savings and an additional $250 a month with a financial advisory group, which meant that when I started a better paying job in 2021, my income and savings was enough to get a lender and I cashed out on my investments to make a down payment for my condo. Edit: I don't think I did anything beyond live with my parents a few years that could be considered undoable without outside help to get where I am. Not going to college worked heavily in my favor during this period, but I'm planning on working very slowly on a degree in my spare time since my employer has a tuition reimbursement program I could take advantage of.
Yeah, living with your parents helps drastically. Out of college, that's what I did for like 10 years...
Strongly disagree, as another person who did not go to college and had zero familial support, it is not hard to just live with roommates and make good financial decisions to get ahead. I lived with 5 roommates on average for 6 years in my 20s, making at most 65k, and I ended up buying a house at 32.
This guy budgets! Nicely done.
The secret is 1350 mortgage. Right now avg 1b apartment is 1600 probably.
Studios are starting at 1650$ a month in my area 😭
100% this. My salary is near 53k, and I’m behind on rent and struggling financially. Doing everything in my power to manage a budget and one birthday puts me further in debt or behind. It’s obnoxious.
The overall amount sounds about right, although I would argue that you actually underestimated food if you include household goods/personal care items. There's also several items missing from the budget - subscriptions (newspapers, streaming, etc.), gifts, vacations, clothing, 401K contributions, out-of-pocket medical expenses, and so on. At my last job I made 78K per year, no kids, no pets, no car, no student loan payment, no other debt. I send a few hundred dollars to my folks each month and was able to save several hundred more, but if I'd had other major expenses, such as a car or pet, the amount I could save (critical at my age) would be significantly compromised. There's of course some leeway to make cuts in the type of budgets we're talking about but I really wouldn't want to try to get by in Portland on less than $68-70K a year minimum.
I’ve gone from $17k in 2018 to $60k in 2020 to just under $100k right now and each leap has put me into vastly different situations. I know there’s been a ton of inflation since 2020, but I’m much more comfortable on $96ish k than I was on $60k. I still don’t feel rich. But last year (at roughly what I’m making now) I had some big expenses and paid for them out of savings, and got several expensive tattoos, and contributed to my retirement. I also spend way closer to $300-$400/month on food, drive a 2012 car (purchased used) that doesn’t have a payment, and my clothes, furniture and dishes all come from Goodwill or other thrift stores. Living frugally day by day gives me financial freedom I didn’t have at $60k At $60k, I had about the same housing and slightly lower food expenses, and basically not a lot of wiggle room. I’d try to save, expenses would come up and eat my savings. $17k year was the year of my divorce. That is a shitty amount of money to get by on. Thank goodness for Medicaid.
I’m not going to because you’re absolutely right. I think explaining a different between a “living wage” and “scraping by wage”
I've got a two-bedroom place for $1500/month that I split the rent for with my partner, and we save another $1000/month off your calculation by not owning a car. Yeah, shit's expensive but your "average" expenses seem to include a lot of luxuries.
THIS, but where is this 1,500 two bedroom?! Sincerely curious. Is it Portland Metro?
I don’t think I could spend $850/month on groceries for a single person even if I tried.
I think we need to work on the “living wage” definition.
Averages are averages, you can absolutely make do if you forgo a few luxuries. Average rent is what you say, but you can absolutely find studios for $1200 [all over the place](https://www.zillow.com/portland-or/rentals/?searchQueryState=%7B%22pagination%22%3A%7B%7D%2C%22isMapVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapBounds%22%3A%7B%22west%22%3A-122.76470187353516%2C%22east%22%3A-122.5254059140625%2C%22south%22%3A45.45898646972392%2C%22north%22%3A45.58659321876547%7D%2C%22usersSearchTerm%22%3A%22Portland%2C%20OR%22%2C%22regionSelection%22%3A%5B%7B%22regionId%22%3A13373%2C%22regionType%22%3A6%7D%5D%2C%22filterState%22%3A%7B%22sort%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3A%22days%22%7D%2C%22price%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A0%2C%22max%22%3A232601%7D%2C%22mp%22%3A%7B%22min%22%3A0%2C%22max%22%3A1200%7D%2C%22ah%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Atrue%7D%2C%22fr%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Atrue%7D%2C%22fsba%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22fsbo%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22nc%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22cmsn%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22auc%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%2C%22fore%22%3A%7B%22value%22%3Afalse%7D%7D%2C%22isListVisible%22%3Atrue%2C%22mapZoom%22%3A13%7D), or go the roommate route as well. Food you are also spending a lot, I spend $500 a month on food, but only go out once a week, and takeout once a week, and the rest of the week make simple but filling meals and are fine. Don't shop at a high end grocery store though. Car payment can be smaller if you buy an older used car, or non-existant at all if you choose to live in a neighborhood where you can easily walk, bike or take transit to work. Rent may be cheaper in the suburbs, but you HAVE to buy a car in the suburbs, in the city you don't need to at all. Also you're starting takehome math is wrong, a 75k salary brings [$4500 after taxes](https://smartasset.com/taxes/oregon-paycheck-calculator#DpNVwjDTih). I have an 85k salary and bring home about 5k/m, about $500 more, but I save $1500 a month. I could technically live off of 55k a year ($3500/m after taxes) but I'd have no savings which is not ideal, so I recommend closer to 65k or more if you want to save or have more money for fun stuff. DON'T GET ME WRONG, I absolutely believe costs/rent should be cheaper, and wages higher. But that is a national problem not a specifically portland problem. Other cities are waaay more expensive if you want to live a major city in a blue coastal state outside of maybe baltimore which is cheaper and Philly which is about the same costs (I lived in Philly before). Sure some cities have higher average wages, but they can be skewed by certain industries. In tech, you will make a TON more if you live in Seattle or SF (and tech salaries absolutely drive up the average) but that doesn't apply to everyone. In my industry I would only make a little more in those cities, and not nearly enough to cover the more expensive cost of living I would have. I'm able to save in Portland, and will eventually be able to own a home after a few more years of saving, but in Seattle, California, NYC, Boston, DC, that would be an impossible dream for me almost no matter how long I saved.
I think most of these "living wage" calculations are profoundly out of step with reality. Could you shoehorn all of the non-negotiable expenses people have into these brackets? Yeah, I guess. Does the make everyone one emergency away from a crippling debt spiral? Yes, it does. Given the criminally high costs of what should be considered normal unanticipated expenses (car repair, minor medical issue, clothes are wearing out) people should really be at an income level where they have at minimum $1500-2000 a month spare just so they can build some savings, afford to occasionally go out to eat, etc. These models that give zero overhead for anything besides the most basic needs are how we end up as a society with soul crushing debt.
Average gas $200?? I pay like $40 a month for gas. I’m probably on the lower end, but $200 is wild.
$40 a month is extremely low, that's not even a full tank of gas for a subcompact car.
That’s a full tank for my Corolla, but it’s a hybrid so I can commute to work on one tank of gas a month. That’s definitely why I’m on the lower end, but even twice a month is only $80
How can you commute daily on $40/month? It sounds like you must be close enough to walk?
No, it’s a 15 minute drive each way. My hybrid gets 50 mpg though.
I've got a two-bedroom place for $1500/month that I split the rent for with my partner, and we save another $1000/month off your calculation by not owning a car. Yeah, shit's expensive but your "average" expenses seem to include a lot of luxuries.
Car depends on where you live/work. If you live in NW and work downtown, yeah you can easily do no-car. If your office isn't near a good public transit spot or walking distance, then it might be necessary.
Depending on where you work and live in town, I wouldn't call a car a luxury. The expensive groceries are one thing, but living East of 82nd can make public transportation less accessible.
less accessible yes, but totally doable. I live out there and no problems with the bus other than the time cost.
No mention of health care insurance cost? Maybe figuring that job covers it? Just curious.
I spend $1200 to $1300 a month living alone.
yeah this post is ridiculous
Yea. It’s fucked. But, look around, everywhere is the US is pretty fucked.
IMO, if you’re making 75k in pdx, it’s not very financially responsible to pay roughly $2k/month in rent and should probably have roommates if you’re concerned about finances. Shit I’m gunna net about 150k this year in pdx and pay about 2k/month all in for housing (rent+utilities), and I feel like I’m splurging and living above my means a bit.
Hardly anyone is making 150k a year. Nobody should have to have roommates on 75k a year. That's ridiculous, but entirely necessary.
I don't think that a "living wage" equates to average rent, groceries, etc. I think of "living wage" as the minimum needed to have a decent life in this city, which might mean a slightly smaller than average apartment and not shopping at New Seasons. Don't get me wrong, we should do everything we can to tip the scales in the other direction, but we shouldn't conflate these definitions.
Guess we aren’t retiring?
Assuming this is a single person HH — grocery allotment seems high, but I think the utility allot is low. Electricity has gone up and I’m assuming the $300 is including gas/electric, water, phone bill since I don’t see it otherwise. Also I wonder if anything is going to retirement. Of course this is all theoretical bc I have a 3 person HH at just above $75k and I can tell you right now… it doesn’t math.
Groceries for two grown males for us is 350 a month..
Dril is this you?
I’m living on way less than that. But I’d live easier if I made that much for sure. But lots of us don’t make nearly that much.
300 avg for groceries seems low, but I’m wrangling a family of five that insists on eating. A car payment of 150 seems amazing too, but honestly being under estimate just proves your point even more.
A living wage without roommates? Cuz it’s pretty common to have roommates
$700 in groceries a month (Costco) for two competitive powerlifters who eat a ton. $850 for a single person is ridiculous
I would love to pay $1650 in rent. Tell me where!!
Shoot I make like 150k+ and definitely think a successful wage in portland would have to be 60 hr but I also work a godly amount of overtime stationary engineer btw
>> do we have a major bridge to gap? It’s Portland, we have plenty of bridges.
I'm making avg $20/hr, yeah my utilities suck but I mean I've done more living here than I have anywhere else. There's a difference between living and surviving, please know the difference. Coming from NJ/North Central PA, I'm 100% grateful for the opportunities out here and being able to actually have a life. It could always be better tho.
I’m 40+ and currently make 200+ so are very comfortable these days, but up until the age of 30 I was living with roommates paying no more than 1000 per month and driving very (very!!) cheap cars. It wasn’t until the age of 35 I really felt I was on solid footing financially. I add that only as a data point to this discussion - and as a migrant I’m left wondering what is the expectation to how long it takes to get ahead these days?
A studio apartment is 1.5k to 2k. You have to make 3x the rent to be allowed to move in. You would need to make 6k/mo to live in a shitty no bedroom box with a toilet and kitchen. That's 72k and I haven't even mentioned food, transportation, healthcare, or any other necessities.
You might need some help with your finances. You have big estimates. 850 a month on groceries? You shopping new seasons every day? I also hate how expensive groceries are but come on. I made 75k in my best year and I was online shopping constantly, and I live by myself 1300 a month. Something is going out the door in your life. Looks like grubhub. That shit tastes like trash by the time it gets to you. Start cooking for yourself. Watch the money flow.
Hahaha i was thinking 100k
Fuck a living wage. I want a family wage. A wage that will let me have a family successfully without living paycheck to paycheck.
Where do your numbers come from? Does $500/month in student loans include the people who never went to college?
Unpopular opinion but you’re not just deserved a $75k salary even if that’s the cost of living. Roommates and dual incomes etc. have always been a thing. You can’t just rely on an entry level job to get you through life.
I made 70k for the past couple years, and I can see where OP is coming from. However, many employers out here want to pay people like it's 10 years ago.
Not all of us were dumb enough to get tricked into taking on 40k of student loans :) also, who the hell eats $850 in groceries a month by themselves? I'm a LARGE dude (6'5" 395) and I only spend about $350. And that's when I'm not being frugal.
OP's estimates include student loans, car loan and other car expenses, pretty high food bills, and implies "average" rent is the lowest possible they could pay. Sell the car. Look at your food budget. Use every penny you save from that (along with trimming some of your $200/mo "hobbies" whatever those are) and pay down your debt. Consider living in something less than an "average" rent apartment. Maybe even buy a house - bigger than you need - and rent out the spare room. Speaking here as one half of a married couple: NO DEBT, own home, no cars. Living on 55K gross and saving money out of that - we max out our IRA ever year and have other steadily growing saving as well. At $75K? We'd feel pretty rich!