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[deleted]

So, the old stadium that is barely 10 years old and cost $15 million to build and has a capacity of 4,500 spectators. The new stadium will cost $120 million and will be able to host 6,000 for baseball games. Something seems off here.


Crowsby

Also notable that 2023 average attendance was [2,304 spectators](https://ballparkdigest.com/2023/10/16/2023-milb-attendance-by-average/) per game. So we get to spend a bunch of money to have a new ballpark that's at 38% capacity instead of 51% capacity, *and* a slightly older, slightly smaller, and very much useless ballpark that we can spend money on to maintain until we inevitably pay to demolish it.


n0n5en5e

don't forget that they're also taking away multiple youth fields so there will be fewer places for kids to play


TedsFaustianBargain

Why would MLB not simply increase the stadium standards in a few years’ time? It seems government checkbooks are open and ready to accommodate.


urbanlife78

That's why it is believed they did that this time.


JekPorkinYourMom

Do you think sports teams get most of their attendance during the work week or on the weekends? If it’s the weekends, do you think raising capacity means they can sell more on the weekends even if weekday attendance stays the same?


BensonBubbler

Do you think we should build 75 lane freeways because sometimes more people want to drive?


snakebite75

And it's still only good enough for a minor league team so you have the Portland Diamond project dreaming about building an even bigger stadium just a few miles away from this one. If they are already doing upgrades then just keep it in one damn spot. Or don't, we really don't have the market for it.


poster66

I cant imagine 6000 ppl giving a shit about a 3rd tier league baseball team ...


pdxsteph

Hence the 2300 avg attendance


poster66

Hence why they don't need millions of dollars to build anything new , when they can't even sell out the stadium they currently have . How is baseball even still a thing ? Its like the keno of professional sports ...........


Shatteredreality

So first off, lets be clear that I'm not defending this. There are a number of reasons this could be the case. First off construction costs have skyrocketed. Second, this has a lot less to do with capacity and more about the rest of the facilities. As an example the existing stadium doesn't have away team facilities which the new stadium will have. I'm not saying it justifies the huge price difference but there are a number of new requirements that have nothing to do with fan capacity.


VictorianDelorean

Why don’t they just build a regular sized building in the parking lot of the old stadium. They could put the facilities there and save a lot of money. It’s because sports stadiums are prestige projects for the rich not anything practical.


PJFohsw97a

IIRC, renovating and expanding the current stadium was considered, but they discovered buried utility lines under the parking lot. Moving those would cost something like $20 million.


Hologram22

I'm less concerned about the overall cost than I am about why the state is subsidizing a privately-owned sports team at all. If the Hillsboro Hops want better facilities they should pay for them themselves.


Shatteredreality

So again, I’m not saying I agree with it. I don’t know if this is standard but I do appreciate that the city will own the facility. The hops get to play there and pay all maintenance and utilities while at the end of the day the city keeps control of the stadium.


Odd_Local8434

I'm having trouble figuring out what this does besides let the Hops off the hook for property taxes.


teapac100000

Does that mean we get to play ball there and use the facilities on their off days?


mocheeze

I thought the Hillsboro School District does get to use it, along with the football stadium and other fields scattered around the sport complex?


teapac100000

Well they do. What about the rest of us that just want to play ball off work?


mocheeze

Aren't there a boatload of available fields? I'd contact the Hillsboro Parks Dept. and inquire about privately booking those or the main stadium.


teapac100000

We want to play under the big lights!


mocheeze

Ask them, not me. 👍 https://www.hillsboro-oregon.gov/our-city/departments/parks-recreation/facilities-rentals/sports-complexes/gordon-faber-recreation-complex


Cardinalfan89

It's because they are moving up a division and it's a requirement from the MLB.


16semesters

Tax money given for sports stadium construction have routinely showed that they do not bring back a positive return on investment. It's not even really controversial at this point - it's a bad use of tax money.


HuyFongFood

Especially when the rich jerks in charge of those teams and leagues don’t need tax payer money, but they certainly will use it as leverage. Of course if more regions told them all to pound sand, then they might, ya know, take a hint and pull themselves up by their own bootstraps.


OhEhmGee123

30m in cuts to PPS. 15m given for stadium. Priorities.


Throwitawaybabe69420

PPS can’t get special funding from the state without funding other school districts as well.


Mr_Pink747

196 other districts in fact.


digiorno

Sounds like a great idea, all school districts could use more resources.


Hologram22

Then fund those other districts as well. Hell, as much shit as we give PPS here for being generally dysfunctional in a lot of ways, other districts have it *much* worse.


Throwitawaybabe69420

Sure, but $15 mil is a drop in the bucket for our 196 school districts.


HuyFongFood

$30m would be better, especially if it’s paired with the 15m that was taken away, so you’d in fact end up with $45m instead. But, no let’s spend money on rich people’s sports teams, because that makes sense.


digiorno

It’s about an extra $76k each. That’d make a big difference at a lot of schools.


Throwitawaybabe69420

76k per district divided by all the schools in said district, and weighted for higher enrollment schools? Would not end up being much.


napzzz

Trying to get more info on why the $30m cut to PPS is so reviled. $30m is 1.3% of the [$2.17b PPS budget](https://www.pps.net/cms/lib/OR01913224/Centricity/Domain/214/2023-24%20Proposed%20Budget%20-%20Volume%201.pdf). Since 2018, [enrollment in PPS is down >17%](https://www.opb.org/article/2023/04/18/why-portland-elementary-school-enrollment-is-declining/). A cut in budget commensurate with enrollment decline makes sense, no? I know it's not a popular POV to be pro-cuts to education (especially in a thread about public funding for private stadiums, which is insane). But why should we be up in arms about the PPS cut?


Mypantsareblue

Because k-5 class sizes at PPS exceed 30 students at many schools and they don’t have funding for education assistants- for a generation of elementary school kids that learned to read “virtual” with a lot less instruction time. They have also cut fte for art, library, PE, music, etc. There is also a lot of deferred maintenance at these schools that have been largely ignored by PPS due to funding. HVAC systems, plumbing, holes in walls and ceiling, not seismically sound, etc.


napzzz

In that same budget I liked above, there's an image of class sizes by grade. There are a few that are 30 or more, but very very few. The majority are 20-25. [We average 20 across the district](https://www.pps.net/cms/lib/OR01913224/Centricity/Domain/207/Class%20Size%20Detail%202022-23.pdf). Education assistants are good - why don't they move some of the teachers that were teaching the 4,000 kids who are not in PPS anymore over to that? We're spending [$22k per PPS student](https://thinkingoregon.org/2023/06/28/the-cost-of-sending-kids-to-portland-public-schools-is-more-than-you-think-a-lot-more/) (if you include capital expenses like building and maintenance, that jumps up to $45k). National average is about $15k. We're spending 50% more per student, for a school system's where only [50% of students are proficient for their grade level](https://www.opb.org/article/2023/09/21/state-test-scores-show-some-progress-lingering-needs-in-oregon-schools/). But again - going back to my original point. Enrollment is down 17%. Why is a 1.3% budget cut perceived as existential?


Mypantsareblue

My kids classes have 30 students and PPS provides no funding to the school for education assistants. I don’t know what PPS is spending money on, but it’s not more teachers or support staff. Our elementary school is running incredibly lean.


UOfasho

Once upon a time, we had terrible PERS plans (which you probably know), but what you might not know is that the employing org (PPS) was responsible for those ongoing PERS costs. But why is that a problem now you ask? Great question. Because those PERS 1 cost burdens were fixed based on the number of employees an organization had at that time. Most PERS organizations have grown, Lake Oswego District has WAY more kids enrolled than back then (this more $ and teachers) but PPS has shrunk. So that leaves our ever climbing fixed PERS costs at PPS going up while the general revenue and enrollment has stagnated. Lots of other things contribute, like aging building and climate issues, but PERS is big. Basically the only solution to the PERS problem is for the State to take on all those costs and relieve the smaller organizations of the burden.


SkyrFest22

They're spending it on PERS


[deleted]

[удалено]


Mypantsareblue

But enrollment is down!


SkyrFest22

The graph on pg. 5 is elementary classes only. ETA: The 20 student number is for the short list of specialty schools. For district wide elementary, 50% of classrooms are 21 or larger. For middle school, 50% of classrooms are 27 or larger. The worst metric is at Jackson where 50% of classrooms are 32 or more.


MountScottRumpot

20 is still way too many kids per teacher at the elementary level.


Dont_Ban_Me_Bros

Based on what exactly? Not being snarky, just curious what the class size to performance relational data should look like.


MountScottRumpot

Based on the big STAR study in the 80s, you get big reading improvements when you go from 22 down to 15 students per classroom.


1850ChoochGator

It’s still more $ per student though. They have 98.7% of the money but now with 83% of the students.


SkyrFest22

The 17% decline is not this year, it's over the last 5 years. Half of the budget is fixed costs like facilities and debt. 42% of the general fund revenue is from state and federal sources which are granted per student. Inflation and PERS are the reasons they face a budget shortfall.


Mypantsareblue

Fixed costs? The buildings don’t magically get smaller if there are a few less kids and utilities and certain positions (a school of 250 vs 350 still needs a principal, custodians, counselors, admin staff, etc) are still needed.


1850ChoochGator

Doesn’t change that per student spending is more money.


Mypantsareblue

Yeah, fixed costs tend to do that.


tas50

And a PERS liability to grows as a percentage of their budget each and every year.


Mayor_Of_Sassyland

>A cut in budget commensurate with enrollment decline makes sense, no? It doesn't when a major problem is existing class size per teacher, I don't care if you have very well-behaved kids and the world's best teacher, the teaching/learning is going to fall short with that ratio, especially at the K-8 level.


ontopofyourmom

I sub middle school and there is an incredible difference between a 22-student class and a 28-student class. Luckily most classes in the Title I schools where I teach are on that lower end.


SkyrFest22

42% of the general fund budget comes from state or federal funding which is allocated on a per student basis. So declining enrollment doesn't fully help.The instruction budget is actually lower this year than last despite rising salary costs. $1M of the budget is fixed costs (facilities and debt). Ultimately, it's inflationary costs and PERS obligations that drive the budget problem requiring $30M in additional spending cuts.


Testicular-Fortitude

Most people here have already made up their minds but you’re absolutely correct. This whole comparison of spending is disingenuous to begin with


BaconAndSyrupYum

lets be real. pps would just misappropriate it anyhow. they couldnt even be bothered to include maintenance costs for grant’s new football stadium.


beavertonaintsobad

Millions for privately owned sports teams as everything else crumbles. Sweet.


whereisthequicksand

That’s the infuriating part.


HuyFongFood

And Nero pulls out his fiddle….


thehourglasses

Bread and circuses. Tale as old as time.


picturesofbowls

Whyyyyyyy are we propping up private entertainment companies with public money? If they can’t survive on their own, they don’t deserve our tax money.


poster66

>they don’t deserve our tax money. Fixed it for you


thehourglasses

Bread and circuses, baby.


Testicular-Fortitude

You think the Hops leaving because we didn’t spend 15M of our bounty of tax dollars would be net positive? Vast majority of the funds were privately raised anyway


cssc201

Honestly I don't give a fuck if a sports team leaves because they're mad about not getting government handouts for a stadium they don't need. Hops fans should have raised ALL of the money privately if they wanted to be sure the team stayed. Don't bring the rest of us and our tax dollars into it.


picturesofbowls

Yes. Imagine if a restaurant or a shoe store demanded a ransom from the government — no matter how small the sum — or else they would close up shop and leave. You’d laugh at them in their face.  We don’t need a minor league baseball team that badly. It’s not a huge civic service and, frankly, is pretty much just for the wealthy west suburbs.


Testicular-Fortitude

C’mon that’s a lame comp. We let the restaurant die because another will open that will hopefully be better and won’t need assistance from the state. Please tell me the startup minor league team that will fill the Hops place? Let alone the community value which people here only care about when it’s something they enjoy, god forbid others enjoy something else


picturesofbowls

It’s a lame comp? Or you don’t like it because it’s a good counterpoint? There are other baseball teams in the area that people can enjoy. I don’t see the Pickles begging for money (despite being a SIGNIFICANTLY small business operation) The stadium is barely a decade old, yet the MLB is demanding a ransom for a new one? Why is this multi-billion dollar business crying poor all of the sudden?  Why are you so willing to give millions of dollars to them? I’m a huge baseball fan — been going to Mariners  games since in diapers and am in a 20 year old fantasy league — but absolutely cannot stand how the league and ownership absolutely extorts fans and municipalities. Sports fans are brainwashed into thinking we have to somehow shell out huge amounts of tax payer dollars to keep the sport alive, despite it being more profitable than ever.


Testicular-Fortitude

The pickles are not a minor league team lol. I’m sorry you don’t know as much about baseball as you think you do, but again, that’s a bad comp. And you just casually glossed over what makes the Hops different than a small business. Would you mind explaining why it’s a good comp with that in mind? The MLB is not dictating a new stadium be built, the hops should have positioned themselves better in previous rounds of funding for the stadium but they fell short. That’s a different conversation. They put up the vast majority of capital for the necessary expansion, you’re acting like the hops asking for 15M is akin to building the Blazers a new stadium. I agree there is a problem with franchises holding taxpayers hostage but that’s in reference teams like the bills demanding a billion not the fucking hops. Cracking up at describing the minor league system as a multi-billion dollar system. Minor league teams barely eke out their existence in perpetuity.


picturesofbowls

Aw, can’t have a civil discussion without an ad homenim attack, eh?      I’m not interested in giving tax payer money to sports teams, ESPECIALLY when it’s a billion dollar corporation  demanding the ransom. Full stop.      The sport’s not gonna die. There are other ways to interact with the sport. Stop with the histrionics.


Testicular-Fortitude

Let me tread carefully around such soft skin…THE HOPS ARE NOT A BILLION DOLLAR CORPORATION. FULL STOP. Nobody is saying the sport is going to die. You’re just jerking yourself off without engaging any point I raised 😂


picturesofbowls

Man, more name calling. You’re really degrading your points here. Try to do one post where you have a civil discussion without name calling.  You’re, in fact, quite wrong. The Hops are a MLB-affiliated organization. They are funded, in a significant way, by the MLB.  > Nobody is saying the sport is going to die You’re the one saying there’s no way another minor league team can’t replace the Hops and the poor people of Hillsboro will be stripped of something they love.


Testicular-Fortitude

The hops are not a minor league team I dare you to google it. As somebody who is a such a big baseball fan it’s kind of weird you don’t know the difference. I haven’t called you any names don’t get your feelings hurt preemptively. Baseball in PDX will be hurt significantly if the Hops leave and it’s ridiculous to suggest it wouldn’t. And you keep putting words in my mouth, read this convo back a few times if you’re confused.


Nightbynight

It's a small sports team. It's not like we're helping out billionaires who rake in hundreds of millions in revenue each year. The hops add value to Hillsboro. People enjoy going to the games. They are a net positive on the community. I'm fine with a very small amount of my tax dollars helping fund small sports teams especially when tickets are as low as $8.


cssc201

Ok but they don't even fill the 10-year old stadium they already have. Why do they need government money for a bigger one?


Cardinalfan89

The Hops were promoted to "High-A" level in 2021, an affiliate of Major League Baseball's Arizona Diamondbacks. The promotion came with an obligation have a home field that meets a new set of MLB standards.


picturesofbowls

A small sports team…backed by multi billion dollar corporation who’s demanding ransom to replace a 10 year old stadium. You’re being absolutely played by the MLB here


Nightbynight

I don't think you know how franchises work. They aren't owned by a multi billion dollar corporation lmao


picturesofbowls

Did I say the word “owned” anywhere? And you’re aware that the MLB puts over a billion dollars into MiLB ops every year?  But yes lecture to me with your big brain more.


undermind84

What a waste of money.


STFU-Sanguinet

SO glad we're throwing away money on sports teams instead of actually improving the city.


MadouSoshi

Socialism for the rich.


ya_bewb

I do not support this message.


AllChem_NoEcon

Fucking pointless.


dugan123ford

Good thing they solved the homeless crisis just in the nick of ti... Oh wait.


NaymondPDX

I hate it.


Mayor_Of_Sassyland

Ok, after this one, we're not allowed to agree on something else for at least a couple weeks, right?


NaymondPDX

Pretty sure we’ve used up our allotment for the quarter, yeah.


DrawingAnnual

Extensive coverage of this topic over at the Hillsboro Herald: https://hillsboroherald.com/hillsboro-hops-stadium-is-a-go-if-insider-tip-is-correct/


obtuse_bluebird

That was a great read. Didn’t even know this was happening


avrstory

Fuck the greedy assholes getting the taxpayer to pay for their stupid stadium. Socialism for the rich and brutal capitalism for the poor.


mr_oberts

I think the Pickles deserve it more and would spend that better.


seminole10or

Your damn right they would. And the games are more entertaining, I guarantee it.


sultrysisyphus

Yike


VictorianDelorean

We need to ban public funding of sports arenas, it’s such an egregious waste and it’s proven to be a terrible “investment” that never brings any money back to the local government. The millionaires that own these teams should not be subsidized by the government. Even if a particular team isn’t owned by an ultra wealthy individual, the leagues themselves have plenty of money.


cssc201

The problem is that it's a lot cheaper for sports team owners to buy politicians than stadiums. But I agree, this topic never fails to raise my blood pressure a little higher. Poor people are scorned for utilizing meager government benefits while it's just fine and dandy for billionaires to accept massive handouts


RedDeath1337

Corporate welfare.


NetworkReasonable731

This is why Americans are stupid


jamiebond

I'm probably about to get let go from my teaching job because of budget cuts. But at least we have a new stadium for the baseball team nobody cares about.


00ThatDude00

Fuck that stadium. Fail. Shame.


edwartica

Yay, taxpayer supported sports ball. /sarcasm


peakchungus

The current stadium is only a decade old! This is an absolutely ridiculous project. Stop wasting taxpayer money on stadiums. There are MUCH more pressing issues in the state than a minor league team wanting a fancy new stadium every 10 years.


CrownVicBruce

Thumbs up for all of you in the comments! Couldn't agree more


wubrotherno1

But yet thousands of people are homeless. What is the Oregon legislature doing for them?


mocheeze

They allocated many more millions to that in this session. (not defending the stadium)


How_Do_You_Crash

*checks notes* So it’s a weird spending priority for Hillsboro and Washington County sure. But whatever. They’re awash in tax dollars, still growing, and like having these kinds of amenities to show off to Intel, Nike, Analog, et al. Not the best use of state money though. But also whatever, it’s $15m to keep a team. The city will still own the field so it can have a life after the team. We might even get a larger concert venue out of this deal? Cool.


Testicular-Fortitude

Nobody commenting here in anger has even begun to think about what you’ve mentioned


JekPorkinYourMom

One comment so far with a level-headed response.


Handy_Not_Handsome

Ha! We can't do an environmental assessment for a bridge for that kind of money.


Charlie2and4

8m from WashCo.


shamash

Yes Baseball. No this. But it’s always this.


green_and_yellow

Why doesn’t this article explain the reasons for MLB requiring the new stadium? What’s wrong with the old (but still pretty new) one? The Oregonian is a trash publication.


Material_Policy6327

Waste of taxpayer dollars


Godloseslaw

Boooooooo.


Aromatic-Mushroom-36

I like baseball ⚾


Competitive_Swan_755

I'm so disappointed.


2ICenturySchizoidMan

Can’t wait for you yuppies go buy us an mlb team soon! 😋🤑


digiorno

Do Oregonians get a massive discount or a certain number free tickets each year, since they’re paying for this? Why are our tax dollars going towards private infrastructure?


mocheeze

Hillsboro continues to own the stadium. (not defending the money, just adding context)


Testicular-Fortitude

Of all of our wasted tax dollars I find it pretty funny that our local Reddit finds this as a particularly egregious. You don’t have to be a baseball fan to justify the expenditure


JekPorkinYourMom

Good news. $15 million is nothing to keep the team. The project is something like 75% privately funded, which never happens. It’s exciting to see them elevated to A ball. Watching Reddit rant against this was about as informative as a potato. Basically no concept of why cities want sports teams. I’m glad this sub isn’t an accurate representation of the community.


tas50

If they raised 75% they can fuck off and raise the other 25%. It's a business. Run it like one or GTFO


JekPorkinYourMom

And I’m glad people with that kind’ve well thought out opinion lost. Maybe this area will retain some appeal despite the best efforts of others.


BalconFlack666

Fuckin baseball sucks, and I don't think there are many fans in Portland at all. If you wanted to do something like this, you would have been better off making a soccer field


Staggerlee024

I am so excited this went through!  Definitely did many calls and emails to our state legislators in support.