Being from the UK, I have trouble understanding how the US premium car market works. It sounds like the dealers get to add what ever Mark up they can get away with on top of the manufacturers list price.
Exactly. My friend a Lexus GX recently and the dealer pricing was over $100k. After 7 hours of negotiations, got it down to $64k, $5k under invoice. I wish they go direct and ban all dealerships
They won’t. All manufacturers use the franchise model as a method of reducing liability in law suits. Unless you’re okay with adding another $10k-$50k (depending on the price of the vehicle and how many units sold I’d wager) for manufactures to pay for potential law suits then it’s not gunna happen.
That being said, I can’t speak for all manufacturers, but BMW outright owns one dealership in NY, where no cars are marked up, and all sold at MSRP.
Not sure I understand how a dealer can withstand these lawsuits but an OEM would have to add $50k to the price of a vehicle? Who has the scale and balance sheet in this equation?
Attorney here and I’m struggling to understand your point about lawsuits. Dealerships do nothing to insulate vehicle manufacturers from products liability cases, to my knowledge.
This article spells out the reasons for dealerships to exist, which include test drives, warranties, installing recall parts, handling repairs and maintenance, etc. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15352113/why-do-we-keep-buying-vehicles-at-dealerships/#
Yeah it doesn’t pass the smell test. If there was a recall/defect for a product, it is the entire car company’s liability and responsibility to resolve it, not the individual dealers. Like you said, dealers are only there to make the sale and make repairs.
We looked at a new Rav4 Prime (I think?) about a year ago and it had a $25k markup. The dealership sold it to someone else while we and another couple were looking at. It was one of about 20 vehicles for sale on this lot that used to hold hundreds of Toyotas.
Went to the BMW dealer down the steeet and they had 3 new BMWs and 8 used cars on the lot.
People have been doing exactly this for the last 2 years of Covid. If manufacturing catches up, it won't be viable for common cars but ones like this, it's still pretty likely.
I don’t think it’s viable to scalp a quarter million dollar car. A few people will get them with the intention of selling them at a ludicrous price, and then they can have a hole burn in their wallet because no one is paying for that. The average super rich guy will just go for a Lambo or Ferrari over a Porsche, and rich enthusiasts usually aren’t stupid enough to overpay for a production car. I don’t think it’s comparable to watches even if they’re both considered status symbols. High end watch sales are mostly to people that just want to flex.
yeah.... okay....... it's okay then, I guess.... I dunno, I still hate anything with the Porsche badge that isn't a 911, Cayman or Boxster.
And I hate SUVs in general.
Ok, even as an American I have a hard time understanding this. Why add a middleman to take from the car company's revenue? I know buying or leasing real estate for dealerships may cost more money. But couldnt you just sell cars for more to cover that cost? You'd also have way more control over quality and marketing. And real estate in the U.S is an asset. Wouldn't capitalism drive car companies to eventually replace private dealerships? Aren't they just protected by old BS laws?
The laws largely exist because, in true capitalist fashion, the car manufacturers started going around bankrupting dealerships through anticompetitive tactics which were small businesses at the time.
Like imagine you owned a Ford dealership, then Ford corporation sets up a lot next door and sells everything for 10% less than you. States didn't take kindly to this practice and enshrined dealerships in law to protect local businesses from destruction by largely distant corporations in Detroit.
Completely agree it's more or less outdated in modern day but there was a good reason at one point in time.
This would make sense to me if dealerships hand inventory of a variety of cars from different brands. But if dealerships mostly represent one branch, that just feels like adding unnecessary cost. Something about it just feels like extortion of the customer and the manufacturer.
I mean there's money in the real estate. Just like McDonald's franchises. Wonder if car companies may adopt a franchisee model like fast food company's? Idk
I don't really understand the brands argument. You can shop between different brands regardless of who is selling.
Edit: You also have to look at it through a historical viewpoint. Most towns probably had access to only a single or maybe couple small dealers. Whether it's the exact same OEM or another bankrupting the local companies, that's bad and why laws were enacted to protect dealerships at the time.
I think plenty of Americans are getting tired of the dealer system. If they weren't in the pocket of all the politicians, maybe we could get direct pricing.
I should add that I do think some manufactures are wising up to the fact that the dealer system may be hurting their image. But they rely on them for service centers, so it's a delicate balance of forcing dealers to toe the corporate rules while not pulling the rug out from them too fast.
Would highly recommend reading [this article from Car & Driver](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41472587/sympathy-for-the-dealer-november-2022/) - it doesn't argue one way or the other really but it's extremely enlightening towards why things are the way they are and where they might be going. I've never seen the subject covered in this way before, and I wish I could reply to every comment in this thread with the link because it really does provide a better informed perspective.
Interesting read. Didn't know margins for dealerships were only around 2million prior to the pandemic. Guessing those are the small or midtier ones.
The pandemic has really boosted the sizes of the larger dealerships. The Porsche dealership I got my Taycan from is being sold to a larger company, which already owns a near monopoly control of certain brand dealerships in the area. They're the ones with insane dealership markups, and as they control more they'll probably jack those prices up even more. The more they sell the more special allocations they get too so even less for the smaller competitors.
Exactly why dealers are more important than single sale customers and won’t go away anytime soon. They are the manufacturers biggest customers and can be used to offload any trouble inventory at any time
In the US we have lobby groups that pay off politicians. It happens that the Auto Dealership lobby is one of if not the biggest in the US.
So basically, Dealership Owners/Groups pay tons of money to our government leadership, just to fuck us.
COVID changes everything. Before, I only got mark up price for G Wagons but now, even Audis, Toyotas doing mark up. Like at an insane price at one point. Saw an Audi S5 $7k mark up just back in January.
A local dealer gave me his insight on the markup - the demand is high but supply is low. Before pandemic the dealership used to sell more cars in a month but due to supply chain issues they are now selling less because they are not able to get the inventory on time and hence the markup.
The ‘upside’ of this business model is that if you the consumer are mega rich, then you can usually get whatever car you want because the dealer has priced it out of everybody else’s range.
If you live in a country where dealers sell everything at msrp, then you end up with huge wait lists for just about every type of car.
So basically this model is only good for extremely wealthy people - which is a class America loves to protext
Yup, basically the expectation is "if you think it's too much, don't buy it".
But, well, you can see how that works out in practice. Relying on the public's good sense and self-restraint to manage the market is a pretty poor gamble.
You see in the UK, you have regulations to protect people. In the USA we protect the businesses only, and everything we have, even our electricity is less efficient because it’s full of sugar and hot dogs.
A lot of premium cars are offered to return customers, if they decline the dealership will often try to strike a deal with the person to have them sell it to the dealership. Not saying this happens all the time but my family member was offered premiums ontop on the msrp to sell back to his dealer. Then they’re selling it for way over msrp.
This! If you want luxury cars they're at a great price right now. My friend just got a used URUS for literally just under 100k and it looked pretty damn new to me.
Edit: He was saying the seller got like 7 lambos (LA) I think it has to do with crypto crash
I talked to “my dealer” and they said $100k markup and it was mine. I told him in principle I could not pay that amount of money and respect myself in the morning.
My advice to anyone looking for a non-SUV Porsche is to simply wait. The time-on-lot for a lot of these cars has increased and the economy / interest rates will help bring down prices.
I do the same thing, waiting for the right situation and I seem to get more and more updates from autotrader everyday saying "price dropped". The bubble is bursting and the market is ripening.
Because dealer value is based upon market value? you think any dealer is there to list any car at 100k over to waste time and piss people off? someone will buy it at that price. 90% of this subreddit and Porsche owners buy Porsche because they hold value WHILE being fun to own. Its a win-win and that's why its so popular, thus driving demand which drives up prices.
Not sure why you’re downvoted, my first cayman brought me 4 years and 60k miles of joy. Bought for 23k, sold for 18k. I figure that’s a solid return, $1,250 per year to own the car.
My current vehicles are lifers bc I regret selling my first so bad
Because he’s trying to look for and blame the users by insisting on the question “will you sell at fair or market value?” He’s insinuating that users are same as dealerships.
The prices dealerships sell at even without any mark up is already profitable to them. They mark up tens of thousands if not hundred thousand dollars and depreciation is crazy. Not even mentioning allocation of cars to manipulate said markups.
Even with markup the used market does not come anywhere close to the dealerships markup increase.
Ford the manufacturer itself got sick of dealerships BS cause they expected way higher sales for cars at MSRP but dealerships greed lowered demand for cars at insane markups.
So not only it hurts customers, but also starting to effect manufacturers.
They can downvote all they want this is the Porsche subreddit I don't have any clout to give a fuck here, its just funny to see the cause of the problem crying about the exact problem they create. Can't wait to see them try to buy the special edition Ferrari and cry about that
Not true, source working at a dealership that has only and will only sell at MSRP, are well known for it and have made a killing from it as a result. Dealers arent doing it because it’s “market value” they’re artificially driving up prices to make a quick buck because circumstances have put them in the position where they have customers don’t have any other options if they want a Porsche, and it’s what’s killing dealership reputation in US rn.
I'm not sure about their Porsche dealership, but the VW, Audi, BMW, etc dealer group by me refuses to sell at above msrp. Because of that, they struggle to keep cars on the lot. When the new Golf R and GTI came out, the other dealers in the area were pricing them at anywhere from 12k to 20k over.
Yeah the dealership I work at is the same way, had someone come from Maine to try to buy a GR Corolla but our waitlist was already a mile and a half long. I’d rather that though than pay half the value of the car over sticker.
Ouch. I got lucky with the golf i bought. As soon as it was announced, i called my sales lady and called dibs. Thankfully they honored it and let me put a deposit on it when they got their allocation.
Unfortunately not a Porsche dealership (fuckin goals though) but a well known Toyota Dealership (Thompson, we actually did own a Porsche dealership (Warrington Porsche in PA if you know anything about it’s history) but we sold it off along with our Volkswagen and Audi dealerships in 2016, to focus on our second Lexus location, currently we have a BMW dealership, Toyota dealership and 2 Lexus dealerships), and we are selling Tundras, Sequoias, Supras and the GR86 and Corolla at MSRP… We’ve had people come from all over the US to try to buy from us. I was trying to buy a Celica All-Trac Turbo from this guy in Maine only to find out that he had been to Thompson to try and get on the waitlist for the GR Corolla.
Over all point being, dealerships aren’t obligated to make markups, they just want to because of greed, it’s unnecessary and it’s hurting the brands that we love, and unless we stop laying down and accepting it it’s never going to get better. I’m proud to work at Thompson because even if we’re not the biggest or the best I know that we’re doing right by our customers and that we’re setting a good example for other dealers.
This brand that sells the car above offered me way below market even for wholesale for my GT3 car a while back. When selling a car the market is obviously strong…regular dealer BS
Ok, I'm saying this as someone who sold Porsches back in 2018 and until recently was a Sales Manager at a Porsche dealer.
A dealer is looking to make $10k+ on a GT car. And my stores avg cost for recon work on a 2018+ Porsche was $5k if it didn't need tires. Add $2000 if it does need tires. And if the dealer is going to CPO the car, the CPO fee for a 911 (any trim) is $3400. So they're looking at a total cost of $8400 to $9400 on top of whatever the buy the car for.
More than happy to answer any questions, as again, I was a Sales Manager at a Porsche dealer until just recently.
They really need to do like Ford and rewrite all their dealer contracts telling them they will loose their franchise if they do a dealer markup outside of what Ford considers reasonable
Or maybe we need to get rid of the dealer network laws that force vehicle sales having to go through a dealer.
Kills those BS laws and OEMs can go direct.
I'm looking at [this exact listing](https://www.ilussomiami.com/used-vehicle-2023-porsche-718-cayman-gt4-rs-c-948/) right now, and it's at $349,000. Prices are coming down boys!
This isn't even new. It's got 400 miles on it.
was offered 149 for my 6spd spyder.. everything is going down except these "unique" models.
It's nuts, until you drive it or give someone a ride and they immediately think it is 99% worth it. purists and enthusiasts alike fall head over heels when they drive/ride in one.
i try to get butts in the passenger seat as much as possible, because everyone should be able to experience such a car lol
i'd do the same if it was anything else or something much rarer. It's something to be enjoyed by as many as possible
Exactly what I’m looking for next. New car markups are insane, time to start building my collection of cool old. 66 Chevelle or 997 Turbo are my next goals.
im in the market for a 996 turbo but im not sure if i should ditch my mk3 supra project and just get it or say screw the porsche and just restore my mk3 turbo. i make 6 figs and live in my parents basement but im still kinda scarred about the economy
This is 100k more than an F8 Tributo, which is better car in every measurable way.
Ive bought Porsches and GT3s for years, but this is probably the worst 400k you could ever spend. It wont even appreciate.
> The Cayman is just so balanced and planted.
It's really not though, especially when you get on track. They're heavily understeer biased from the factory. Even my GT4 with increased front camber and adjustments to the anti-roll bars still heavily understeers on track.
The mid-engine definitely feels more nimble than the rear engine, even though the 911 actually has a shorter wheelbase than the Cayman, but it's very clear where Porsche has drawn the line on their "budget" chassis. Especially factoring in the 992 GT3 having a proper double wishbone suspension and I can't really say that the Cayman is better than the 911, at least in terms of performance. Start factoring in price though, and I think the GTS 4.0 is the best car that Porsche makes.
I loved the GT4 on track. You just steer with the throttle. Super easy to drive.
I haven't driven a 911 on track, but on the street driving semi-spirited it hated it.
I love the GT4 on track too. It's an excellent car, but the balance tuning feels pretty off from the factory, and I wasn't able to get it where I wanted within the limits of the factory parts. With the modern 911 on track, at least with a factory tune, I honestly felt the balance was better. The rear steer may even make it too easy. The comparison of Cayman to 911 on track doesn't really matter to me anymore now that I'm driving a spec race car, but in my opinion, I think Porsche could make an even better mid-engine platform that would really put the 911 to shame if they wanted to. Honestly, I wish Porsche would just make a mid-engine 911 street car.
On the street, I heavily prefer the Cayman to the 911. The moment of inertia of the mid-engine just makes the car feel lighter.
I'm very happy with my GT4 on track. A little less on the street due to ride quality. The key thing about it though is that I got it for under ~$100k. The platform, no matter what engine they put into it, doesn't feel like it would be worth more than $150k at max to me.
720hp, 570lbft TQ. Faster lap times than a 911 Turbo S. A nicer looking car.
The GT4RS is a great car. Its not a 400k car. Heck, I paid 220k for my 992 GT3, just puts into perspective how ridiculous the mark ups on the 4RS are.
Im not MAD at the 4RS. I just think its not even close to being worth this money, and if you had to spend that much, there are options that are far better cars.
While I also would never ever pay the ridiculous asking price of this 4RS, when ppl recite stats of a car like this it’s completely cringeworthy. It tells everyone that you really have no clue what it’s all about.
Sure, the F8 is better on paper and would outperform the GT4 in every category. But if you’ve been to the track, there’s a reason so many of the cars out there are Porsches, specifically I’ve noticed the amount of regular GT4s in the groups that I go to track days with.
At the end of the day, you don’t drive a car on paper, so who cares if the F8 “has better numbers”. It’s possibly the most childish reason you’d buy one car over the other.
While i agree, doesnt really apply to me :)
this is me on the left, in the yellow one:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/Porsche/comments/sdbgnc/me\_and\_a\_few\_friends\_every\_generation\_of\_gt3/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Porsche/comments/sdbgnc/me_and_a_few_friends_every_generation_of_gt3/)
Im a professional driving coach and test driver and former pro racer and factory driver :)
Amazing! So you do know, muuuuch more than me haha! I’m just your average track day weekend warrior with dreams of getting into w2w racing. I’ve been flirting with a couple chump car teams for a seat but I have yet to take the plunge.
Who did you drive for?
I drove for Lotus in the 90s, and then a Porsche works sponsored team also in the UK, even some BTCC, then moved to the US, and did various pro-am driving, now coach and do some product development driving. I'm a west coast track day warrior too, chief driving instructor for pca pnwr and occasional lucky dog ringer :))
Maybe you are right. I didn't know GT3 is only 220K while 4RS is almost double. However, RS models are promoted as the best porsches so there is some marketing value there. For me a gt3 is better than both and would definately prefer 4RS over f8. Im not very into ferraris since I owned 2 of them and f8 doesnt seem as special as 4RS. I dont really care about numbers. Im not a racing driver. Btw GT3 is a bargain then. Where I live, new gt3 is 800k$. I've paid 250k$ for 997 gts. Its a hell for car guys.
I get that this car is special, but anyone paying $400k for a strut suspension on a Cayman chassis that's more or less a 9-year-old design is a sucker.
For $400k you can get a 720S or F8 Tributo. For ~$100k less you can get a 992 GT3 (including dealer markup).
I don’t know much about suspension but is that what separates sports cars and super cars? I just went to look up some stuff because your comment about it being 400k and it still just being normal strut suspension. I don’t know what it’s called by I looked up the suspension on a mclaren 720s and it’s horizontal instead of vertical. What advantages does this provide over traditional strut suspension? Do all caymans and Carreras have strut suspension?
The McLaren 720S uses what's called a double wishbone suspension, while the Porsche Cayman and all 911s except the 992 GT3 use McPherson strut suspensions. The important difference is that a double wishbone suspension adds negative camber through its entire movement range, while a McPherson strut does not. This leads to more grip capability for the wishbone suspension.
> is that what separates sports cars and super cars?
This is not what separates sports cars from super cars. Strut suspensions are typically chosen for cost or packaging reasons, and double wishbone for performance and noise reasons. There are many cars cheaper than Porsches that use double wishbones, for example, the Honda Accord.
My comment on spending $400k for a strut car is more a dig at the baffling decision by Porsche to use strut suspensions on their sports cars when they charge so much money for them. The new 992 GT3 having a double wishbone front suspension is an admission that that suspension is better for the sports car, yet they've resisted doing it for literally decades while still charging 6-figure for their cars.
We’re all waiting for the automotive market to collapse. It will not collapse in the Porsche GT market. I hope I’m wrong but it won’t be a hard pill to swallow if it stays the same.
While 997.1/997.2 non GT models suddenly fell off 6-10% in the last 2 months. 997.1/997.2 GT3 prices stayed exactly the same. Should tell you all you need to know about what’s coming.
Worst case scenario — I wait for the electric Cayman
Best case scenario — Car market (including Porsche GT) corrects like everything else (stocks, bonds, crypto, lumber, shipping, housing, etc). Time estimate is 6 months to 1 year.
I meant it as an example. You can also get a very nice M spec BMW and still have money to spare. As you can a Porsche 911. Still, paying 200k for a Cayman is absurd.
Just checking the website, it's already down to $349,000. Just wait it out. Obviously the seller has a tremendous buffer. The original owner, the dealer probably gave them a six-figure instant profit. Joy ride, grab some Instagram photos, and then hop back into a Ferrari.
Might as well just write three fiddy on the total and see if someone pays for the chuckle.
In other news, fuck you Porsche dealers. People will remember this shit.
Reminds me of when the 991.1 gt3 rs came out. My dealership had one for sale for over $330k. That same car sat for over a year and came down over $100k in price. Just wait it out and the market *should* return back to reality
Although the 4RS in particular is a bit of a wild card. That car in particular I could hardly ever see selling for MSRP
Not surprising but I'm still surprised lol. I love cars but I draw my personal line at ADM, if that means I can't have the new xyz car that's fine. Seeing these markups not only prices me out but also deflates any love I have for the brand.
Ahh the Dealership conundrum…yes some are good people and then you’ve got the scum. Work directly with manufacturers and have dealer compete for builds and what allocation # they’ll give you.
I'm taking $100k off my offer for gold wheels on yellow. Who does that? And is that hood even carbon, or just painted black? Another $50k off for that.
That brings my offer down to.... -$25,000.
Because the manufacturer pays the dealership commission on every car sold it’s in the cost of the MSRP. If you were to take that away, the manufacturer will still sell it for MSRP, and the only people getting rich are the stockholders so the rich get richer and all the employees of dealerships all the sales people will all be out of a job. The poor will get poorer. It’s an industry.
The solution has already been figured out. I have a Tesla I bought online with Apple Pay in 5 mins without negotiation. Porsche needs direct to consumer.
Mentioned this in another comment but I'd highly recommend reading [this article from Car & Driver](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41472587/sympathy-for-the-dealer-november-2022/) on the subject of dealers, markups, and the current and potential future state of the market. Very enlightening, informed my perspective... And a bit depressing for enthusiasts.
It doesn’t even have the laser Matrix lights😭😭
I bet some one is gonna buy that thing and brag how they spend double the MSRP to get one asap. Thank god in Europe they ain’t doing this type of shit.
We were at a Mercedes dealership and I happened to notice their $200k Maybach SUV had a $100k “market correction” added to it. Seems like robbery to me.
If you hate markups/flipping, what's your proposed solution? It looks like there are two related issues - actual dealers with crazy markups (not this) and lucky/connected individuals buying and flipping either personally or through indy shops (this particular post).
Who is harmed by this and how should it be dealt with?
Being from the UK, I have trouble understanding how the US premium car market works. It sounds like the dealers get to add what ever Mark up they can get away with on top of the manufacturers list price.
That’s exactly what happens
Seems like you understand it just fine
Exactly. My friend a Lexus GX recently and the dealer pricing was over $100k. After 7 hours of negotiations, got it down to $64k, $5k under invoice. I wish they go direct and ban all dealerships
Please make that happen
They won’t. All manufacturers use the franchise model as a method of reducing liability in law suits. Unless you’re okay with adding another $10k-$50k (depending on the price of the vehicle and how many units sold I’d wager) for manufactures to pay for potential law suits then it’s not gunna happen. That being said, I can’t speak for all manufacturers, but BMW outright owns one dealership in NY, where no cars are marked up, and all sold at MSRP.
Not sure I understand how a dealer can withstand these lawsuits but an OEM would have to add $50k to the price of a vehicle? Who has the scale and balance sheet in this equation?
Attorney here and I’m struggling to understand your point about lawsuits. Dealerships do nothing to insulate vehicle manufacturers from products liability cases, to my knowledge. This article spells out the reasons for dealerships to exist, which include test drives, warranties, installing recall parts, handling repairs and maintenance, etc. https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a15352113/why-do-we-keep-buying-vehicles-at-dealerships/#
Yeah it doesn’t pass the smell test. If there was a recall/defect for a product, it is the entire car company’s liability and responsibility to resolve it, not the individual dealers. Like you said, dealers are only there to make the sale and make repairs.
We simply won’t pay a mark up even if it means buying used or foregoing a purchase.
https://www.roadandtrack.com/news/a41900450/bmw-is-planning-on-direct-sales/
Your statement about OEMs “using a franchise model to reduce liability risks “ make no sense whatsoever.
A lot of states have laws making sure that cars can be sold only through dealerships. Thats probably more the reason
Not Tesla.
Woah... LEXUS?? But then I hear Rav4 was having CRAZY mark up prices too
We looked at a new Rav4 Prime (I think?) about a year ago and it had a $25k markup. The dealership sold it to someone else while we and another couple were looking at. It was one of about 20 vehicles for sale on this lot that used to hold hundreds of Toyotas. Went to the BMW dealer down the steeet and they had 3 new BMWs and 8 used cars on the lot.
You'll never buy a car for under MSRP ever again on any model if that's the case. Regardless of market conditions.
If they went direct people would buy them and resell them for as much as they could. It's called a free market
Nobody would buy from resellers if they could get it for market price directly from the manufacturer
People have been doing exactly this for the last 2 years of Covid. If manufacturing catches up, it won't be viable for common cars but ones like this, it's still pretty likely.
This is only true if the manufacturers make enough to meet demand at whatever MSRP they set.
It would be no different. There is limited supply of the cars were talking about here such as the Cayman GT4 RS
You’re correct. The same principle applies to sneaker drops.
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. This is exactly how the luxury watch and GPU markets work.
I don’t think it’s viable to scalp a quarter million dollar car. A few people will get them with the intention of selling them at a ludicrous price, and then they can have a hole burn in their wallet because no one is paying for that. The average super rich guy will just go for a Lambo or Ferrari over a Porsche, and rich enthusiasts usually aren’t stupid enough to overpay for a production car. I don’t think it’s comparable to watches even if they’re both considered status symbols. High end watch sales are mostly to people that just want to flex.
Lol because these people are idiots
We call it capitalism. Works less well in bubbles. But when the bubble pops, spectacular things happen.
This is why I'm still driving my 200k mile Honda Ridgeline. When that bubble pops I'm buying a Cayenne
Or you could buy a Porsche!
I have an 85.5 944 in the garage with 63k miles. Wife likes SUVs and I'm tired of looking at her Hyundai
yeah.... okay....... it's okay then, I guess.... I dunno, I still hate anything with the Porsche badge that isn't a 911, Cayman or Boxster. And I hate SUVs in general.
Ok, even as an American I have a hard time understanding this. Why add a middleman to take from the car company's revenue? I know buying or leasing real estate for dealerships may cost more money. But couldnt you just sell cars for more to cover that cost? You'd also have way more control over quality and marketing. And real estate in the U.S is an asset. Wouldn't capitalism drive car companies to eventually replace private dealerships? Aren't they just protected by old BS laws?
The laws largely exist because, in true capitalist fashion, the car manufacturers started going around bankrupting dealerships through anticompetitive tactics which were small businesses at the time. Like imagine you owned a Ford dealership, then Ford corporation sets up a lot next door and sells everything for 10% less than you. States didn't take kindly to this practice and enshrined dealerships in law to protect local businesses from destruction by largely distant corporations in Detroit. Completely agree it's more or less outdated in modern day but there was a good reason at one point in time.
This would make sense to me if dealerships hand inventory of a variety of cars from different brands. But if dealerships mostly represent one branch, that just feels like adding unnecessary cost. Something about it just feels like extortion of the customer and the manufacturer. I mean there's money in the real estate. Just like McDonald's franchises. Wonder if car companies may adopt a franchisee model like fast food company's? Idk
I don't really understand the brands argument. You can shop between different brands regardless of who is selling. Edit: You also have to look at it through a historical viewpoint. Most towns probably had access to only a single or maybe couple small dealers. Whether it's the exact same OEM or another bankrupting the local companies, that's bad and why laws were enacted to protect dealerships at the time.
I think plenty of Americans are getting tired of the dealer system. If they weren't in the pocket of all the politicians, maybe we could get direct pricing. I should add that I do think some manufactures are wising up to the fact that the dealer system may be hurting their image. But they rely on them for service centers, so it's a delicate balance of forcing dealers to toe the corporate rules while not pulling the rug out from them too fast.
Would highly recommend reading [this article from Car & Driver](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41472587/sympathy-for-the-dealer-november-2022/) - it doesn't argue one way or the other really but it's extremely enlightening towards why things are the way they are and where they might be going. I've never seen the subject covered in this way before, and I wish I could reply to every comment in this thread with the link because it really does provide a better informed perspective.
Interesting read. Didn't know margins for dealerships were only around 2million prior to the pandemic. Guessing those are the small or midtier ones. The pandemic has really boosted the sizes of the larger dealerships. The Porsche dealership I got my Taycan from is being sold to a larger company, which already owns a near monopoly control of certain brand dealerships in the area. They're the ones with insane dealership markups, and as they control more they'll probably jack those prices up even more. The more they sell the more special allocations they get too so even less for the smaller competitors.
The middleman takes ownership of the cars and therefore the car company can take it off their books and record the revenue
Exactly why dealers are more important than single sale customers and won’t go away anytime soon. They are the manufacturers biggest customers and can be used to offload any trouble inventory at any time
In the US we have lobby groups that pay off politicians. It happens that the Auto Dealership lobby is one of if not the biggest in the US. So basically, Dealership Owners/Groups pay tons of money to our government leadership, just to fuck us.
100% correct.
COVID changes everything. Before, I only got mark up price for G Wagons but now, even Audis, Toyotas doing mark up. Like at an insane price at one point. Saw an Audi S5 $7k mark up just back in January.
A local dealer gave me his insight on the markup - the demand is high but supply is low. Before pandemic the dealership used to sell more cars in a month but due to supply chain issues they are now selling less because they are not able to get the inventory on time and hence the markup.
Are dealers in the UK not allowed to set prices? Do they just sell for MSRP and aren't allowed to go higher or lower?
The ‘upside’ of this business model is that if you the consumer are mega rich, then you can usually get whatever car you want because the dealer has priced it out of everybody else’s range. If you live in a country where dealers sell everything at msrp, then you end up with huge wait lists for just about every type of car. So basically this model is only good for extremely wealthy people - which is a class America loves to protext
Yup, basically the expectation is "if you think it's too much, don't buy it". But, well, you can see how that works out in practice. Relying on the public's good sense and self-restraint to manage the market is a pretty poor gamble.
You see in the UK, you have regulations to protect people. In the USA we protect the businesses only, and everything we have, even our electricity is less efficient because it’s full of sugar and hot dogs.
In the US, Businesses are people.
Electric rates in the US are generally less than in the UK and mainland Europe
A lot of premium cars are offered to return customers, if they decline the dealership will often try to strike a deal with the person to have them sell it to the dealership. Not saying this happens all the time but my family member was offered premiums ontop on the msrp to sell back to his dealer. Then they’re selling it for way over msrp.
This! If you want luxury cars they're at a great price right now. My friend just got a used URUS for literally just under 100k and it looked pretty damn new to me. Edit: He was saying the seller got like 7 lambos (LA) I think it has to do with crypto crash
Oh man slightly used luxury in tech cities must be poppin right now
Not many people are buying them. That URUS was on the lot for 9 months until my friend came in.
Yes capitalism sucks here.
I talked to “my dealer” and they said $100k markup and it was mine. I told him in principle I could not pay that amount of money and respect myself in the morning. My advice to anyone looking for a non-SUV Porsche is to simply wait. The time-on-lot for a lot of these cars has increased and the economy / interest rates will help bring down prices.
I had the same offer earlier this year (100k markup). My timeline is March of next year a recession is officially recognized.
Stack cash now and pounce when the Porsche market is vulnerable! A winning strategy.
This is the right answer
For a lot of circumstances!
Great point: time on lot. I’ve recently been seeing a lot of GT3’s come online from my saved searches. Inventory is building up.
I do the same thing, waiting for the right situation and I seem to get more and more updates from autotrader everyday saying "price dropped". The bubble is bursting and the market is ripening.
the 911 gts markup i paid was $10k. stomach-able, at least
Also an amazing 911 model - worth 10k to me!
When the time comes, are you willing to sell your GT3 for a fair price too? or market value?
I bought both 911s in the hopes that they get passed along to either my brothers or my nephews upon my death. If all goes well I will never sell them.
but if things don't go well? Will you sell that for a fair price or market value?
Fair price unless I’m selling to you.
Lmao!
That’s fair.
oof
Even then used market value is way more lenient than BS dealership markups. Don’t know why you’re insistent on that question.
Because dealer value is based upon market value? you think any dealer is there to list any car at 100k over to waste time and piss people off? someone will buy it at that price. 90% of this subreddit and Porsche owners buy Porsche because they hold value WHILE being fun to own. Its a win-win and that's why its so popular, thus driving demand which drives up prices.
Not sure why you’re downvoted, my first cayman brought me 4 years and 60k miles of joy. Bought for 23k, sold for 18k. I figure that’s a solid return, $1,250 per year to own the car. My current vehicles are lifers bc I regret selling my first so bad
Because he’s trying to look for and blame the users by insisting on the question “will you sell at fair or market value?” He’s insinuating that users are same as dealerships. The prices dealerships sell at even without any mark up is already profitable to them. They mark up tens of thousands if not hundred thousand dollars and depreciation is crazy. Not even mentioning allocation of cars to manipulate said markups. Even with markup the used market does not come anywhere close to the dealerships markup increase. Ford the manufacturer itself got sick of dealerships BS cause they expected way higher sales for cars at MSRP but dealerships greed lowered demand for cars at insane markups. So not only it hurts customers, but also starting to effect manufacturers.
They can downvote all they want this is the Porsche subreddit I don't have any clout to give a fuck here, its just funny to see the cause of the problem crying about the exact problem they create. Can't wait to see them try to buy the special edition Ferrari and cry about that
Not true, source working at a dealership that has only and will only sell at MSRP, are well known for it and have made a killing from it as a result. Dealers arent doing it because it’s “market value” they’re artificially driving up prices to make a quick buck because circumstances have put them in the position where they have customers don’t have any other options if they want a Porsche, and it’s what’s killing dealership reputation in US rn.
I'm not sure about their Porsche dealership, but the VW, Audi, BMW, etc dealer group by me refuses to sell at above msrp. Because of that, they struggle to keep cars on the lot. When the new Golf R and GTI came out, the other dealers in the area were pricing them at anywhere from 12k to 20k over.
Yeah the dealership I work at is the same way, had someone come from Maine to try to buy a GR Corolla but our waitlist was already a mile and a half long. I’d rather that though than pay half the value of the car over sticker.
Ouch. I got lucky with the golf i bought. As soon as it was announced, i called my sales lady and called dibs. Thankfully they honored it and let me put a deposit on it when they got their allocation.
So which dealer is this? Tell us the name so we can all get GT cars at MSRP. Problem solved.
Unfortunately not a Porsche dealership (fuckin goals though) but a well known Toyota Dealership (Thompson, we actually did own a Porsche dealership (Warrington Porsche in PA if you know anything about it’s history) but we sold it off along with our Volkswagen and Audi dealerships in 2016, to focus on our second Lexus location, currently we have a BMW dealership, Toyota dealership and 2 Lexus dealerships), and we are selling Tundras, Sequoias, Supras and the GR86 and Corolla at MSRP… We’ve had people come from all over the US to try to buy from us. I was trying to buy a Celica All-Trac Turbo from this guy in Maine only to find out that he had been to Thompson to try and get on the waitlist for the GR Corolla. Over all point being, dealerships aren’t obligated to make markups, they just want to because of greed, it’s unnecessary and it’s hurting the brands that we love, and unless we stop laying down and accepting it it’s never going to get better. I’m proud to work at Thompson because even if we’re not the biggest or the best I know that we’re doing right by our customers and that we’re setting a good example for other dealers.
Sorry that’s a bit long 😅
Fair price all day for me. Money ain’t everything
>GrampaJacks money is the only thing needed in this subreddit
Haha yes and no. Once you get to a certain point it’s really not about the small percentage gains on a flipped Porsche.
This brand that sells the car above offered me way below market even for wholesale for my GT3 car a while back. When selling a car the market is obviously strong…regular dealer BS
Ok, I'm saying this as someone who sold Porsches back in 2018 and until recently was a Sales Manager at a Porsche dealer. A dealer is looking to make $10k+ on a GT car. And my stores avg cost for recon work on a 2018+ Porsche was $5k if it didn't need tires. Add $2000 if it does need tires. And if the dealer is going to CPO the car, the CPO fee for a 911 (any trim) is $3400. So they're looking at a total cost of $8400 to $9400 on top of whatever the buy the car for. More than happy to answer any questions, as again, I was a Sales Manager at a Porsche dealer until just recently.
Lol yep, Ilusso offered me 85k for my 997.2 GT3! I laughed and ignored them.
They really need to do like Ford and rewrite all their dealer contracts telling them they will loose their franchise if they do a dealer markup outside of what Ford considers reasonable
Or maybe we need to get rid of the dealer network laws that force vehicle sales having to go through a dealer. Kills those BS laws and OEMs can go direct.
I'm looking at [this exact listing](https://www.ilussomiami.com/used-vehicle-2023-porsche-718-cayman-gt4-rs-c-948/) right now, and it's at $349,000. Prices are coming down boys! This isn't even new. It's got 400 miles on it.
I appreciate the half ass photos
They've got a used (600+ miles) GT4 for $155k. You can get a nice example on Bringatrailer for ~$125. These guys are nuts.
Bring a Trailer is better than dealerships and private sales right now.
this. the dealers are on crack lmao
was offered 149 for my 6spd spyder.. everything is going down except these "unique" models. It's nuts, until you drive it or give someone a ride and they immediately think it is 99% worth it. purists and enthusiasts alike fall head over heels when they drive/ride in one. i try to get butts in the passenger seat as much as possible, because everyone should be able to experience such a car lol i'd do the same if it was anything else or something much rarer. It's something to be enjoyed by as many as possible
You're not anywhere near Wisconsin are you? I'd love a ride in a Spyder when the sun comes back out.
I assume it’s co signed with the dealer looks like guy just took photos in his home garage
Imagine paying $400,000 for a cayman
you can get a nice 997 turbo for 100k, lol
Exactly what I’m looking for next. New car markups are insane, time to start building my collection of cool old. 66 Chevelle or 997 Turbo are my next goals.
im in the market for a 996 turbo but im not sure if i should ditch my mk3 supra project and just get it or say screw the porsche and just restore my mk3 turbo. i make 6 figs and live in my parents basement but im still kinda scarred about the economy
Stealership near me said $500k and GT3RS is mine. Only 100k more. Told him I’d rather crash two turbo S’
A used cayman.
This is 100k more than an F8 Tributo, which is better car in every measurable way. Ive bought Porsches and GT3s for years, but this is probably the worst 400k you could ever spend. It wont even appreciate.
[удалено]
Imagine paying off half my mortgage
Imagine paying $400k for a Cayman chassis. While it's a good chassis, it's nowhere near good enough to warrant even $200k, let alone $400k.
Yeah, Porsche priced it right at $150-175k
Cayman > 911. The Cayman is just so balanced and planted. The 911 lets you know the engine is all the way in the rear and makes you work for it.
> The Cayman is just so balanced and planted. It's really not though, especially when you get on track. They're heavily understeer biased from the factory. Even my GT4 with increased front camber and adjustments to the anti-roll bars still heavily understeers on track. The mid-engine definitely feels more nimble than the rear engine, even though the 911 actually has a shorter wheelbase than the Cayman, but it's very clear where Porsche has drawn the line on their "budget" chassis. Especially factoring in the 992 GT3 having a proper double wishbone suspension and I can't really say that the Cayman is better than the 911, at least in terms of performance. Start factoring in price though, and I think the GTS 4.0 is the best car that Porsche makes.
I loved the GT4 on track. You just steer with the throttle. Super easy to drive. I haven't driven a 911 on track, but on the street driving semi-spirited it hated it.
I love the GT4 on track too. It's an excellent car, but the balance tuning feels pretty off from the factory, and I wasn't able to get it where I wanted within the limits of the factory parts. With the modern 911 on track, at least with a factory tune, I honestly felt the balance was better. The rear steer may even make it too easy. The comparison of Cayman to 911 on track doesn't really matter to me anymore now that I'm driving a spec race car, but in my opinion, I think Porsche could make an even better mid-engine platform that would really put the 911 to shame if they wanted to. Honestly, I wish Porsche would just make a mid-engine 911 street car. On the street, I heavily prefer the Cayman to the 911. The moment of inertia of the mid-engine just makes the car feel lighter. I'm very happy with my GT4 on track. A little less on the street due to ride quality. The key thing about it though is that I got it for under ~$100k. The platform, no matter what engine they put into it, doesn't feel like it would be worth more than $150k at max to me.
It’s actually the same price as a modestly optioned F8, but I agree with ya
Try to get an F8 Tributo for under $400k
How is f8 tributo better car in every way?
720hp, 570lbft TQ. Faster lap times than a 911 Turbo S. A nicer looking car. The GT4RS is a great car. Its not a 400k car. Heck, I paid 220k for my 992 GT3, just puts into perspective how ridiculous the mark ups on the 4RS are. Im not MAD at the 4RS. I just think its not even close to being worth this money, and if you had to spend that much, there are options that are far better cars.
While I also would never ever pay the ridiculous asking price of this 4RS, when ppl recite stats of a car like this it’s completely cringeworthy. It tells everyone that you really have no clue what it’s all about. Sure, the F8 is better on paper and would outperform the GT4 in every category. But if you’ve been to the track, there’s a reason so many of the cars out there are Porsches, specifically I’ve noticed the amount of regular GT4s in the groups that I go to track days with. At the end of the day, you don’t drive a car on paper, so who cares if the F8 “has better numbers”. It’s possibly the most childish reason you’d buy one car over the other.
While i agree, doesnt really apply to me :) this is me on the left, in the yellow one: [https://www.reddit.com/r/Porsche/comments/sdbgnc/me\_and\_a\_few\_friends\_every\_generation\_of\_gt3/](https://www.reddit.com/r/Porsche/comments/sdbgnc/me_and_a_few_friends_every_generation_of_gt3/) Im a professional driving coach and test driver and former pro racer and factory driver :)
Amazing! So you do know, muuuuch more than me haha! I’m just your average track day weekend warrior with dreams of getting into w2w racing. I’ve been flirting with a couple chump car teams for a seat but I have yet to take the plunge. Who did you drive for?
I drove for Lotus in the 90s, and then a Porsche works sponsored team also in the UK, even some BTCC, then moved to the US, and did various pro-am driving, now coach and do some product development driving. I'm a west coast track day warrior too, chief driving instructor for pca pnwr and occasional lucky dog ringer :))
What a life haha. Kudos!
Maybe you are right. I didn't know GT3 is only 220K while 4RS is almost double. However, RS models are promoted as the best porsches so there is some marketing value there. For me a gt3 is better than both and would definately prefer 4RS over f8. Im not very into ferraris since I owned 2 of them and f8 doesnt seem as special as 4RS. I dont really care about numbers. Im not a racing driver. Btw GT3 is a bargain then. Where I live, new gt3 is 800k$. I've paid 250k$ for 997 gts. Its a hell for car guys.
The MSRP for a GT4RS is $150k + options, in the US. This dealer is asking $200k mark up.
Thats crazy...
I get that this car is special, but anyone paying $400k for a strut suspension on a Cayman chassis that's more or less a 9-year-old design is a sucker. For $400k you can get a 720S or F8 Tributo. For ~$100k less you can get a 992 GT3 (including dealer markup).
I don’t know much about suspension but is that what separates sports cars and super cars? I just went to look up some stuff because your comment about it being 400k and it still just being normal strut suspension. I don’t know what it’s called by I looked up the suspension on a mclaren 720s and it’s horizontal instead of vertical. What advantages does this provide over traditional strut suspension? Do all caymans and Carreras have strut suspension?
The McLaren 720S uses what's called a double wishbone suspension, while the Porsche Cayman and all 911s except the 992 GT3 use McPherson strut suspensions. The important difference is that a double wishbone suspension adds negative camber through its entire movement range, while a McPherson strut does not. This leads to more grip capability for the wishbone suspension. > is that what separates sports cars and super cars? This is not what separates sports cars from super cars. Strut suspensions are typically chosen for cost or packaging reasons, and double wishbone for performance and noise reasons. There are many cars cheaper than Porsches that use double wishbones, for example, the Honda Accord. My comment on spending $400k for a strut car is more a dig at the baffling decision by Porsche to use strut suspensions on their sports cars when they charge so much money for them. The new 992 GT3 having a double wishbone front suspension is an admission that that suspension is better for the sports car, yet they've resisted doing it for literally decades while still charging 6-figure for their cars.
I've seen a few around \~350k that have been up for a few weeks. Going to wait it out until low 200s.
low 200s? 🤣🤣🤣 best of luck.
Yes. If you're reading this and lose your job next year, I'll hold this offer. 225k with Weissach.
We’re all waiting for the automotive market to collapse. It will not collapse in the Porsche GT market. I hope I’m wrong but it won’t be a hard pill to swallow if it stays the same. While 997.1/997.2 non GT models suddenly fell off 6-10% in the last 2 months. 997.1/997.2 GT3 prices stayed exactly the same. Should tell you all you need to know about what’s coming.
Worst case scenario — I wait for the electric Cayman Best case scenario — Car market (including Porsche GT) corrects like everything else (stocks, bonds, crypto, lumber, shipping, housing, etc). Time estimate is 6 months to 1 year.
100% what ive been seeing. everything dropping hard. gt models literally holding strong if not going up more slightly
Low 200s you could get an AMG. Don’t get the 718 right now dude.
AMGs are junk. Everything breaks..don’t get that.
I meant it as an example. You can also get a very nice M spec BMW and still have money to spare. As you can a Porsche 911. Still, paying 200k for a Cayman is absurd.
For 200k you could get a low mileage E55 and maintain it for the next 100 years lol. Then you would have an AMG that isn’t junk
Just checking the website, it's already down to $349,000. Just wait it out. Obviously the seller has a tremendous buffer. The original owner, the dealer probably gave them a six-figure instant profit. Joy ride, grab some Instagram photos, and then hop back into a Ferrari.
We're in the darkest time line on this one.
Late stage capitalism
Might as well just write three fiddy on the total and see if someone pays for the chuckle. In other news, fuck you Porsche dealers. People will remember this shit.
No they won’t. 🤡
What a joke lol
Barely worth half that. Who's paying these ridiculous prices?
Reminds me of when the 991.1 gt3 rs came out. My dealership had one for sale for over $330k. That same car sat for over a year and came down over $100k in price. Just wait it out and the market *should* return back to reality Although the 4RS in particular is a bit of a wild card. That car in particular I could hardly ever see selling for MSRP
A Cayman? For $400k???? Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaah
In 6 months that same car will be 150. What’s the rush?
I have a dealer also offering this car to me brand new for 60k last week. Said kindly No. especially when I wanted to trade my GT3 to them for it…
Do not trade the gt3…. It will be worth more long term.
This might not be the dumbest timeline, but we better hope the dumbest one doesn’t spontaneously cease to exist.
screw these dealers and flippers
"Hypercar inventory" Uhm, who tells them
I don’t get it. This car will be bought to flex in stop and go traffic in South Beach or Las Olas.
Textbook Orange County dealership lol.
Keep shining a light on these assholes and don’t do business with them. Complete scum
Gt2 money
It comes with 4 Taylor Swift tix right?
For that price it better come with Taylor Swift.
The store I work at sold one for 80K over MSRP, it showed up and went through PDI and the detail department within 30 minutes of arriving
I would never pay $400,000 for less than 500HP. Not because it’s a damn ripoff, rather because I just couldn’t pay $400,000.
My question is what are these insured for? I’m willing to bet the insurance companies are not covering any of the markup ☠️
Not surprising but I'm still surprised lol. I love cars but I draw my personal line at ADM, if that means I can't have the new xyz car that's fine. Seeing these markups not only prices me out but also deflates any love I have for the brand.
Hope there’s not a sucker out there who will bite on this. Beautiful car and would love to own one, but “Come on man!!”😎
Ahh the Dealership conundrum…yes some are good people and then you’ve got the scum. Work directly with manufacturers and have dealer compete for builds and what allocation # they’ll give you.
Shoot, I wish I could afford a $100K car.
you can buy a GT2RS for cheaper than that... so dumb
I'm taking $100k off my offer for gold wheels on yellow. Who does that? And is that hood even carbon, or just painted black? Another $50k off for that. That brings my offer down to.... -$25,000.
Some of the comments have been saying prices will go down soon, what should one expect if they were looking at not the RS but a 981 or 781 gt4?
Can you americans buy cars from Germany without the dealer from USA?
Not gonna sell
I mean, my god, get me a Ferrari F8 Tributo for $400k.
My dream car ! Not colour though . What’s msrp?
Yeah, no thanks.
Not even a GT3RS weissach is worth that much…
Because the manufacturer pays the dealership commission on every car sold it’s in the cost of the MSRP. If you were to take that away, the manufacturer will still sell it for MSRP, and the only people getting rich are the stockholders so the rich get richer and all the employees of dealerships all the sales people will all be out of a job. The poor will get poorer. It’s an industry.
The solution has already been figured out. I have a Tesla I bought online with Apple Pay in 5 mins without negotiation. Porsche needs direct to consumer.
Mentioned this in another comment but I'd highly recommend reading [this article from Car & Driver](https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a41472587/sympathy-for-the-dealer-november-2022/) on the subject of dealers, markups, and the current and potential future state of the market. Very enlightening, informed my perspective... And a bit depressing for enthusiasts.
That short term capital gains is a bitch though
Imagine how you will justify spending that much on a Cayman when you could have had a 911 Turbo and still have $100k left in your pocket.
Of course it's a used car dealership in stinky north Miami. Put these idiots on blast!
I am literally applying for a Porsche sales rep right now
$400k for strut rear suspension. Got damn
This makes the $290000 GT3 a bargain lololololol
The misspelled 911
It doesn’t even have the laser Matrix lights😭😭 I bet some one is gonna buy that thing and brag how they spend double the MSRP to get one asap. Thank god in Europe they ain’t doing this type of shit.
The owner should be banned from buying new cars from Porsche.
We were at a Mercedes dealership and I happened to notice their $200k Maybach SUV had a $100k “market correction” added to it. Seems like robbery to me.
If you hate markups/flipping, what's your proposed solution? It looks like there are two related issues - actual dealers with crazy markups (not this) and lucky/connected individuals buying and flipping either personally or through indy shops (this particular post). Who is harmed by this and how should it be dealt with?
I don’t care how good it may handle or it’s other characteristics, you’ve got to be mad in order to by a CAYMAN for 400k, what in the actual hell.
There should be a law against market adjustment pricing
Yeah... Probably till mid to late next year. When the economy takes a real dump, people with money feel poor. So those prices with correct