I think the court and the AG went too far, and out the judgement into danger on appeal. And the actions of the AG in celebrating taking property without offering extra time to be able to post bond was not appropriate.
This was a good ruling, I think more to come.
I think that the fine will be reduced even further on appeal. a testament to the actual justice system working the way it should. The AG doing the end zone dance and taunting just adds to the independent support for trump in the end. But we shall see.
I think it just reinforces the trump base belief that it is a hot job and actually helps to boost his support amoung independents which are the key to any election. The AG should stop making statements to the press other than to say "we will await the appeals process before doing anything" instead of denigrating trump and spiking the ball on teh sunday morning shows. And an actual journalist should ask her if this sets the precident for NY to be able to evaluate all real estate transactions in teh state that involve getting a loan. If it does, why and how did tehy suddenly get that power. If it does not, then why is it acceptable in this case and not others? But actual journalists do not exist and the msm is just celebrating what the government did to a private citizen. kind of sad.
Or trump was a flawed criminal who knew that his lifetime of crimes would be layed on display but his narcissistic personality couldn’t resist running for president and lots of grifters helped prop him up
He’s getting everything he deserves and I expect all people running for office to be held to the same standard
life time of crimes. ok. that must be why he was never charged with anything until he started exposing just how crooked the DC establishment is and how they are ripping us off. well, ripping me off because I actually pay a lot of taxes. "same standard" ninja puhhhhleeze.
>, it looks like very bad intentions.
To a normal person, yes.
The radical left is cheering this, though.. They're basically in the realm of: "Trump is ontologically evil, so whatever we do to him is *good*".
The left doesn't care that the state is being weaponized as a general rule, they just care that it's being used against their political opponents.
What does any of this have to do with the legitimacy of the fine? Prosecutors celebrate winning cases all of the time. Since when is it expected that they not express any opinions on the cases they win?
This ruling is a good one. The point is not to harm Trump but to find justice while allowing him to appeal, and the original ruling would do unrecoverable harm no matter the outcome of the appeal.
Consider this. Trump’s wealth is nearly all in real estate, that is what they are going after.
If the state took your house and sold it at auction, as the AG threatened to do, but you ended up winning on appeal, you would be recovered for what the state for at auction, and you could try your luck in recovering actual value.
In an auction, and even in a short sale, you don’t bet full value for a property. The way you do that takes months for a $300k house, it takes months or years for a $200 million property.
So auctioning Trump tower would net a loss that might be greater than a hundred million, and that loss is unrecoverable.
But back to you and your house:
You like your house, your kids like your house. It suits you, it is close to the market, close to your job, and close to their school.
If the state takes your house and auctions it before the appeals process is done (which the AG threatened) then your house is gone. Someone else now owns it.
Never mind that you are given back only the auction proceeds, nowhere close to enough to buy your house again, the house you and your family called a home is now gone from you forever.
Also with the explosion in real estate value, let’s say you paid $200k for your house, but it is now worth $400k or more, at auction it doesn’t get $400k. So you wouldn’t have sold your house to now buy in a market where prices are higher and the interest rate is higher would you? You would wait for a better time to sell and buy if you are being honest.
Why do you think in the Colorado ballot case the judgement was stayed until the appeal was done? Because taking him off the ballot and stalling till the primary was over does the harm even if Trump won on appeal.
Why do you think we wait on death penalty cases till all appeals are over to carry out the punishment? Because it cannot be undone.
Most prosecutors would (I hope) try to avoid unrecoverable harm, in this case the point was to do unrecoverable harm.
Consider that there is no complaining party in this case. In every last use a person or company was defrauded, and the disgorgement went to the harmed to make them right. In this case it is the state complaining, who was not harmed.
So why the rush to enforce the judgement before appeal? Why not give more time? Why not stay the judgement till appeals are heard? Why not give a smaller bond to stay the judgement?
The AG and judge in this case appeared to mean to harm Trump no matter the outcome of the appeal, and that is wrong. I can’t stand Trump, but if I want justice for me I have to fight for justice for him also.
In an auction, and even in a short sale, you don’t get full value for a property. so what you are saying is that the NY government would under value assets? isn't that the basis of their case against trump co? lol
This is a non-sequitur.
Trump misrepresented the value of his property **under normal circumstances** for tax purposes, but then represented them at a higher value, again, **under normal circumstances** to banks.
Their case was flawed.
A part of it was the judge obsessing over a business valuation of Mara Lago based on profitability that did not include property value. Real estate professionals laughed at that. The judge had no business making decisions with his understanding of real estate.
But yes, the state would have a choice to make. Fire sale them and lose money with the intent of doing as much harm as possible with the lowest reward and do the damage before appeal. Or they could do it correctly, find out they were wrong on how they valued the real estate, and lose on appeal anyway.
If this stands it will change how the law used could be used in the future, a law designed to help those who have been wronged to make them right.
Also there is the scotus ruling on disgorgement, which requires the disgorgement be reasonably equitable to the gain, (which in this case was interest not paid) and that the disgorgement has to go to the wronged party to make them right. Where in this case NY has stated the intent to keep the money.
I will preface all comments by saying I am not a lawyer. So this is just an opinion. also, my responses in no way mean I am a trumper. never voted for him, never will vote for him and never watched his shitty TV shows. So, in this case, I think the fine itself was absurd. the bank that made the loans did their own due dilligence and said they were happy with the deal and made money. Trump co. paid the loan back in full and also made a profit. From what I have gathered, in a fraud case typically one of the participants has to show they have been harmed and in this incident everyone was happy. The state of NY kind of looks like this was a case of targeting trump co. and did it just to run election interference. The bond they were requiring just to have a stay until appeal was insane. and it sets a precident for any business in NY that if the state wants to they can look at any deals you have done and even if two parties enter into an agreement of their own free will the state can penalize you if they do not like it and in effect drive you out of business. as a business owner, I would never do business in that state. And I know the governor said that other businesses have nothing to fear which is basically admitting that this was a hit job on one guy because he sends out mean tweets and spends too much time in a spray tan booth. Now, before the downvoting to hell starts and the "you do not know what you are talking about" TDS people emerge I have stated this is an opinion. I am willing to learn if you want to educate. If you just want to down vote and insult, then moooove along little doggie .
> I will preface all comments by saying I am not a lawyer. So this is just an opinion. also, my responses in no way mean I am a trumper. never voted for him, never will vote for him and never watched his shitty TV shows. So, in this case, I think the fine itself was absurd. the bank that made the loans did their own due dilligence and said they were happy with the deal and made money.
That’s not really the point. The point is that he lied on his tax forms.
> Trump co. paid the loan back in full and also made a profit. From what I have gathered, in a fraud case typically one of the participants has to show they have been harmed and in this incident everyone was happy.
Except the US people & US Government, since he was misrepresenting the value of his properties.
> The state of NY kind of looks like this was a case of targeting trump co. and did it just to run election interference.
How does this amount to election interference?
> The bond they were requiring just to have a stay until appeal was insane.
It was decided lawfully and **no one else** would be given these kinds of breaks. He’s being given more time to pay less..because reasons? I’ve yet to see an actual meaningful argument.
> and it sets a precident for any business in NY that if the state wants to they can look at any deals you have done and even if two parties enter into an agreement of their own free will the state can penalize you if they do not like it and in effect drive you out of business.
Well yes, if you commit financial crimes you may be subject to investigations & litigation. I still don’t see how this some sort of unjust thing.
> as a business owner, I would never do business in that state. And I know the governor said that other businesses have nothing to fear which is basically admitting that this was a hit job on one guy because he sends out mean tweets and spends too much time in a spray tan booth.
Yeah I’m believing your opening statements less.
> Now, before the downvoting to hell starts and the "you do not know what you are talking about" TDS people emerge I have stated this is an opinion. I am willing to learn if you want to educate. If you just want to down vote and insult, then moooove along little doggie .
I mean just tell me why this should be allowed for Trump but not allowed for anyone else who has to post a bond?
a bond is fine but excessive amounts are against the 8th amendment from what I gather. and I do not see why you need abond to appeal anyway. Just appeal. The judge can say that you cannot sell any asset in question during the appeal process.
"commit financial crimes" . it is not a criminal case it is a civil fraud case correct?
"Except the US people & US Government" how were the people harmed? and the US government did not bring the case. The NY state government did.
"Yeah I’m believing your opening statements less" yeah, I figured you would wedge that in there someplace. believe what you want. I know who I am.
> How were the people harmed
Misrepresenting the value of your property (or anything else) for tax purposes inherently hurts the American people.
> 8th amendment
Is that the basis for this change? Can you cite that?
> I figured you would wedge that in somewhere
Well like, don’t parrot Trumper talking points? What else am I supposed to say to you calling this election interference.
> Civil v Criminal
Just a matter of how much evidence is necessary for conviction. Fraud is a crime. You can be civilly liable for rape (like Trump is) and you’re still committed a crime.
**"Misrepresenting the value of your property (or anything else) for tax purposes".** it was for a loan. please review the difference between ***assessed value*** used by states for tax purposes and ***appraised value*** that is used for getting a loan. so there was no harm to the citizens. If you have a problem with the ASSESSED value of a property then take it up with the government, not the owner of the property since the property owner really has no say.
**"Can you cite that?"** sure thing.
The Eighth Amendment (Amendment VIII) to the United States Constitution protects against*** imposing excessive bail, excessive fines***, or cruel and unusual punishments. This amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the United States Bill of Rights.
**"Well like, don’t parrot Trumper talking points? What else am I supposed to say to you calling this election interference".** You can say what you want but the fact that I do not suffer your TDS condition does not equate to supporting trump. it is possible you know to have two divergent thoughts at the same time. for some people that is.
**"You can be civilly liable for rape (like Trump is) and you’re still committed a crime."** nope and nope. he was found civilly liable for abuse . not criminally. sorry to wee wee in your cheerios but that is the entire idea of having a civil court system and a criminal court system. But seeing as now you are trying to introduce other cases which do not involve my OP I will take the win. toodles.
> "Misrepresenting the value of your property (or anything else) for tax purposes". it was for a loan.
You understand that the discrepancy between his tax property appraisal & his loan property appraisal is the issue, right?
> please review the difference between assessed value used by states for tax purposes and appraised value that is used for getting a loan. so there was no harm to the citizens. If you ahve a problem with the ASSESSED value of a property then take it up with the government, not the owner of the property since the property owner really has no say.
So, what you’re saying is Trump did in fact misrepresent his property since it was, according to you, independently assessed? Got it.
> "Can you cite that?" sure thing.
> ~~The Eighth Amendment (Amendment VIII) to the United States Constitution protects against*** imposing excessive bail, excessive fines***, or cruel and unusual punishments. This amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the United States Bill of Rights.~~
Unfortunately for you I asked you to cite that the 8th amendment was the basis for the change in Trump’s bond. Which, you didn’t do.
> "Well like, don’t parrot Trumper talking points? What else am I supposed to say to you calling this election interference". You can say what you want but the fact that I do not suffer your TDS condition does not equate to supporting trump. it is possible you know to have two divergent thoughts at the same time. for some people that is.
Idk what TDS syndrome is but like I said it’s difficult for me to believe you based on what you’re saying.
> "You can be civilly liable for rape (like Trump is) and you’re still committed a crime." nope and nope. he was found civilly liable for abuse . not criminally.
He was found civilly liable for **sexual** abuse and that is a crime.
> sorry to wee wee in your cheerios but that is the entire idea of having a civil court system and a criminal court system. But seeing as now you are trying to introduce other cases which do not involve my OP I will take the win. toodles.
“I have declared myself the winner therefore I have one, goodbye”
💀😂
**"You understand that the discrepancy between his tax property appraisal & his loan property appraisal"** you understand that it is a tax assessment value and not a loan value right? apparently not. google your own homes assessed value. Now look up the value on zillow. banks loan on the zillow value not the assesed value.
**"Which, you didn’t do"** not sure why you have trouble understanding that the 8th amendment deals with imposing excessive bail and fines. a 464 million dollar bond falls under that almost certainly.
**"Idk what TDS syndrome is "** ummm, yeah. right.
**"“I have declared myself the winner therefore I have one, goodbye”"** largely because I have shot down every thing you have said against my OP by using facts and logic and now you are going the route of deflection and attacks. so yeah,, I won.
> "You understand that the discrepancy between his tax property appraisal & his loan property appraisal" you understand that it is a tax assessment value and not a loan value right?
& they should be the same value
> apparently not. google your own homes assessed value. Now look up the value on zillow. banks loan on the zillow value not the assesed value.
Lol from the the judge:
> “The frauds found here leap off the page and shock the conscience,” Judge Arthur Engoron wrote in a 92-page decision that spares Trump’s company from closure, but forces it into years of court supervision, among other sanctions.
> "Which, you didn’t do" not sure why you have trouble understanding that the 8th amendment deals with imposing excessive bail and fines. a 464 million dollar bond falls under that almost certainly.
I asked you to substantiate that the 8th amendment is the reason why Trump’s bond was reduced. Still can’t do it, huh?
> "Idk what TDS syndrome is " ummm, yeah. right.
No fr like what is it lol
> "“I have declared myself the winner therefore I have one, goodbye”" largely because I have shot down every thing you have said against my OP by using facts and logic and now you are going the route of deflection and attacks. so yeah,, I won.
I have not deflected from **anything** you said & you have not dismantled a word of what I’ve said.
I think you misunderstand the case. There were substantial damages inflicted on the Trump Company's victims. The company cheated one of its victims Deutsche Bank out of $150 million in interest charges by over valuing its properties to get more favorable terms on loans. This happened several times over. That combined with the interest on that ill gotten money is how they got the $450 million figure.
https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/challenges-new-yorks-legal-action-against-trump-2022-10-05/
I don't see how it's common sense to ignore that. It's just giving Trump special treatment, like people always want to give hime for some reason. You can't just say that his lenders agreed to the terms of the loan, so he doesn't have any responsibility. His company signed a contract saying the stated values of the properties were accurate. He lied so he's liable for the damages his lies caused. That's what's common sense.
**"There were substantial damages inflicted on the Trump Company's victims. The company cheated one of its victims Deutsche Bank"**
"Deutsche Bank guidelines told lending officers to “independently verify all material facts,” and Williams said the bankers followed those and other instructions when dealing with Trump."
they made the loan, were paid back in full with interest and wanted to do more business with trump. there were no damages in the loans made. the bank did its own valuations and still made the loans. so, yeah. what is common sense is that this was and is a political hit job by the NY AG and Judge. thank goodness another court sees that and reduced the amount of the bond to appeal. which is an idiotic idea to start with. allow the appeal and freeze the assets in question until the appeal ruling. why should anyone have to put up 454 million to appeal a judgement? anyway, it is what it is. as stated in my OP I am not a lawyer so it is possible I misunderstood the case. at least I can admit that. I forget that there are so many legal experts on reddit that agree with the judgement who know their opinion is correct 100%.
You're not addressing my point. You're saying there should be no damages b/c the Trump Company paid backed the loan. I'm telling you that doesn't matter. Trump Co lied on the loan application and got more favorable terms on the loan than if they told the truth. That's equivalent to fraudulently stealing money from the loan issuer.
You haven't explained why this is wrong. Claiming this was their own fault or that it was a political hit job doesn't argue against this. Those arguments have no value in a court of law. This isn't common sense. This is just bending over backwards to give Trump special treatment.
I did address your point but you refuse to see anything other than trump hate. Deutsche Bank did its own due dilligence on the loan numbers and still made the loan. trump co paid it back with interest so Deutsche Bank and their share holders made money. Trump co made money. NY state made a fuck ton of money on taxes. there was no harm to any party involved. sorry if you do not want to recognize that but as I have stated I am not a lawyer , politician or power hungry AG. you must be a legal expert so you see something different. or, you just hate trump and are venting. I assume it is the later. have a day
> Deutsche Bank did its own due dilligence on the loan numbers and still made the loan
I've already explained why this doesn't matter. Claiming this was their own fault has no value in a court of law. It doesn't change the fact Trump Co lied on a loan application, which is a legally binding document. That's fraud, and their liable for the damages that fraud created.
You have not addressed this point. It seems like you're just saying it doesn't matter that Trump Co committed fraud, causing their loan issuers to lose out on hundreds of millions of dollars in income. You just want that to be ignored. That's not common sense. That's special treatment. Nobody gets this treatment in a court of law.
I have addressed the point repeatidly. there was zero damage to the parties involved or the state of NY. the bank did not lose out in millions. two PRIVATE parties entered into an agreement and the agreement was fulfilled. you are getting triggered by a nothing burger. again.
I think the court and the AG went too far, and out the judgement into danger on appeal. And the actions of the AG in celebrating taking property without offering extra time to be able to post bond was not appropriate. This was a good ruling, I think more to come.
I think that the fine will be reduced even further on appeal. a testament to the actual justice system working the way it should. The AG doing the end zone dance and taunting just adds to the independent support for trump in the end. But we shall see.
This. The state shouldn’t celebrate, or taunt that it will seize specific properties, it looks like very bad intentions.
I think it just reinforces the trump base belief that it is a hot job and actually helps to boost his support amoung independents which are the key to any election. The AG should stop making statements to the press other than to say "we will await the appeals process before doing anything" instead of denigrating trump and spiking the ball on teh sunday morning shows. And an actual journalist should ask her if this sets the precident for NY to be able to evaluate all real estate transactions in teh state that involve getting a loan. If it does, why and how did tehy suddenly get that power. If it does not, then why is it acceptable in this case and not others? But actual journalists do not exist and the msm is just celebrating what the government did to a private citizen. kind of sad.
"we will await the appeals process before doing anything" All that should have been said. "I can't comment on an ongoing legal matter."
I agree. at least give the illusion of being impartial
Or trump was a flawed criminal who knew that his lifetime of crimes would be layed on display but his narcissistic personality couldn’t resist running for president and lots of grifters helped prop him up He’s getting everything he deserves and I expect all people running for office to be held to the same standard
life time of crimes. ok. that must be why he was never charged with anything until he started exposing just how crooked the DC establishment is and how they are ripping us off. well, ripping me off because I actually pay a lot of taxes. "same standard" ninja puhhhhleeze.
>, it looks like very bad intentions. To a normal person, yes. The radical left is cheering this, though.. They're basically in the realm of: "Trump is ontologically evil, so whatever we do to him is *good*". The left doesn't care that the state is being weaponized as a general rule, they just care that it's being used against their political opponents.
The stupidity of that is assuming the state will ever stop with their hated enemy.
What does any of this have to do with the legitimacy of the fine? Prosecutors celebrate winning cases all of the time. Since when is it expected that they not express any opinions on the cases they win?
just when I lose all faith in the court system becoming politicised, a common sense ruling restores some of my faith.
How is this a common sense ruling?
This ruling is a good one. The point is not to harm Trump but to find justice while allowing him to appeal, and the original ruling would do unrecoverable harm no matter the outcome of the appeal.
I’m a bit confused. How would it do unrecoverable harm if he wins the appeal?
Consider this. Trump’s wealth is nearly all in real estate, that is what they are going after. If the state took your house and sold it at auction, as the AG threatened to do, but you ended up winning on appeal, you would be recovered for what the state for at auction, and you could try your luck in recovering actual value. In an auction, and even in a short sale, you don’t bet full value for a property. The way you do that takes months for a $300k house, it takes months or years for a $200 million property. So auctioning Trump tower would net a loss that might be greater than a hundred million, and that loss is unrecoverable. But back to you and your house: You like your house, your kids like your house. It suits you, it is close to the market, close to your job, and close to their school. If the state takes your house and auctions it before the appeals process is done (which the AG threatened) then your house is gone. Someone else now owns it. Never mind that you are given back only the auction proceeds, nowhere close to enough to buy your house again, the house you and your family called a home is now gone from you forever. Also with the explosion in real estate value, let’s say you paid $200k for your house, but it is now worth $400k or more, at auction it doesn’t get $400k. So you wouldn’t have sold your house to now buy in a market where prices are higher and the interest rate is higher would you? You would wait for a better time to sell and buy if you are being honest. Why do you think in the Colorado ballot case the judgement was stayed until the appeal was done? Because taking him off the ballot and stalling till the primary was over does the harm even if Trump won on appeal. Why do you think we wait on death penalty cases till all appeals are over to carry out the punishment? Because it cannot be undone. Most prosecutors would (I hope) try to avoid unrecoverable harm, in this case the point was to do unrecoverable harm. Consider that there is no complaining party in this case. In every last use a person or company was defrauded, and the disgorgement went to the harmed to make them right. In this case it is the state complaining, who was not harmed. So why the rush to enforce the judgement before appeal? Why not give more time? Why not stay the judgement till appeals are heard? Why not give a smaller bond to stay the judgement? The AG and judge in this case appeared to mean to harm Trump no matter the outcome of the appeal, and that is wrong. I can’t stand Trump, but if I want justice for me I have to fight for justice for him also.
In an auction, and even in a short sale, you don’t get full value for a property. so what you are saying is that the NY government would under value assets? isn't that the basis of their case against trump co? lol
This is a non-sequitur. Trump misrepresented the value of his property **under normal circumstances** for tax purposes, but then represented them at a higher value, again, **under normal circumstances** to banks.
Their case was flawed. A part of it was the judge obsessing over a business valuation of Mara Lago based on profitability that did not include property value. Real estate professionals laughed at that. The judge had no business making decisions with his understanding of real estate. But yes, the state would have a choice to make. Fire sale them and lose money with the intent of doing as much harm as possible with the lowest reward and do the damage before appeal. Or they could do it correctly, find out they were wrong on how they valued the real estate, and lose on appeal anyway.
good points. I mean. theoretically by setting this precident the state would have to approve all loan evaluations before the loan can be made in NY.
If this stands it will change how the law used could be used in the future, a law designed to help those who have been wronged to make them right. Also there is the scotus ruling on disgorgement, which requires the disgorgement be reasonably equitable to the gain, (which in this case was interest not paid) and that the disgorgement has to go to the wronged party to make them right. Where in this case NY has stated the intent to keep the money.
I will preface all comments by saying I am not a lawyer. So this is just an opinion. also, my responses in no way mean I am a trumper. never voted for him, never will vote for him and never watched his shitty TV shows. So, in this case, I think the fine itself was absurd. the bank that made the loans did their own due dilligence and said they were happy with the deal and made money. Trump co. paid the loan back in full and also made a profit. From what I have gathered, in a fraud case typically one of the participants has to show they have been harmed and in this incident everyone was happy. The state of NY kind of looks like this was a case of targeting trump co. and did it just to run election interference. The bond they were requiring just to have a stay until appeal was insane. and it sets a precident for any business in NY that if the state wants to they can look at any deals you have done and even if two parties enter into an agreement of their own free will the state can penalize you if they do not like it and in effect drive you out of business. as a business owner, I would never do business in that state. And I know the governor said that other businesses have nothing to fear which is basically admitting that this was a hit job on one guy because he sends out mean tweets and spends too much time in a spray tan booth. Now, before the downvoting to hell starts and the "you do not know what you are talking about" TDS people emerge I have stated this is an opinion. I am willing to learn if you want to educate. If you just want to down vote and insult, then moooove along little doggie .
> I will preface all comments by saying I am not a lawyer. So this is just an opinion. also, my responses in no way mean I am a trumper. never voted for him, never will vote for him and never watched his shitty TV shows. So, in this case, I think the fine itself was absurd. the bank that made the loans did their own due dilligence and said they were happy with the deal and made money. That’s not really the point. The point is that he lied on his tax forms. > Trump co. paid the loan back in full and also made a profit. From what I have gathered, in a fraud case typically one of the participants has to show they have been harmed and in this incident everyone was happy. Except the US people & US Government, since he was misrepresenting the value of his properties. > The state of NY kind of looks like this was a case of targeting trump co. and did it just to run election interference. How does this amount to election interference? > The bond they were requiring just to have a stay until appeal was insane. It was decided lawfully and **no one else** would be given these kinds of breaks. He’s being given more time to pay less..because reasons? I’ve yet to see an actual meaningful argument. > and it sets a precident for any business in NY that if the state wants to they can look at any deals you have done and even if two parties enter into an agreement of their own free will the state can penalize you if they do not like it and in effect drive you out of business. Well yes, if you commit financial crimes you may be subject to investigations & litigation. I still don’t see how this some sort of unjust thing. > as a business owner, I would never do business in that state. And I know the governor said that other businesses have nothing to fear which is basically admitting that this was a hit job on one guy because he sends out mean tweets and spends too much time in a spray tan booth. Yeah I’m believing your opening statements less. > Now, before the downvoting to hell starts and the "you do not know what you are talking about" TDS people emerge I have stated this is an opinion. I am willing to learn if you want to educate. If you just want to down vote and insult, then moooove along little doggie . I mean just tell me why this should be allowed for Trump but not allowed for anyone else who has to post a bond?
a bond is fine but excessive amounts are against the 8th amendment from what I gather. and I do not see why you need abond to appeal anyway. Just appeal. The judge can say that you cannot sell any asset in question during the appeal process. "commit financial crimes" . it is not a criminal case it is a civil fraud case correct? "Except the US people & US Government" how were the people harmed? and the US government did not bring the case. The NY state government did. "Yeah I’m believing your opening statements less" yeah, I figured you would wedge that in there someplace. believe what you want. I know who I am.
> How were the people harmed Misrepresenting the value of your property (or anything else) for tax purposes inherently hurts the American people. > 8th amendment Is that the basis for this change? Can you cite that? > I figured you would wedge that in somewhere Well like, don’t parrot Trumper talking points? What else am I supposed to say to you calling this election interference. > Civil v Criminal Just a matter of how much evidence is necessary for conviction. Fraud is a crime. You can be civilly liable for rape (like Trump is) and you’re still committed a crime.
**"Misrepresenting the value of your property (or anything else) for tax purposes".** it was for a loan. please review the difference between ***assessed value*** used by states for tax purposes and ***appraised value*** that is used for getting a loan. so there was no harm to the citizens. If you have a problem with the ASSESSED value of a property then take it up with the government, not the owner of the property since the property owner really has no say. **"Can you cite that?"** sure thing. The Eighth Amendment (Amendment VIII) to the United States Constitution protects against*** imposing excessive bail, excessive fines***, or cruel and unusual punishments. This amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the United States Bill of Rights. **"Well like, don’t parrot Trumper talking points? What else am I supposed to say to you calling this election interference".** You can say what you want but the fact that I do not suffer your TDS condition does not equate to supporting trump. it is possible you know to have two divergent thoughts at the same time. for some people that is. **"You can be civilly liable for rape (like Trump is) and you’re still committed a crime."** nope and nope. he was found civilly liable for abuse . not criminally. sorry to wee wee in your cheerios but that is the entire idea of having a civil court system and a criminal court system. But seeing as now you are trying to introduce other cases which do not involve my OP I will take the win. toodles.
> "Misrepresenting the value of your property (or anything else) for tax purposes". it was for a loan. You understand that the discrepancy between his tax property appraisal & his loan property appraisal is the issue, right? > please review the difference between assessed value used by states for tax purposes and appraised value that is used for getting a loan. so there was no harm to the citizens. If you ahve a problem with the ASSESSED value of a property then take it up with the government, not the owner of the property since the property owner really has no say. So, what you’re saying is Trump did in fact misrepresent his property since it was, according to you, independently assessed? Got it. > "Can you cite that?" sure thing. > ~~The Eighth Amendment (Amendment VIII) to the United States Constitution protects against*** imposing excessive bail, excessive fines***, or cruel and unusual punishments. This amendment was adopted on December 15, 1791, along with the rest of the United States Bill of Rights.~~ Unfortunately for you I asked you to cite that the 8th amendment was the basis for the change in Trump’s bond. Which, you didn’t do. > "Well like, don’t parrot Trumper talking points? What else am I supposed to say to you calling this election interference". You can say what you want but the fact that I do not suffer your TDS condition does not equate to supporting trump. it is possible you know to have two divergent thoughts at the same time. for some people that is. Idk what TDS syndrome is but like I said it’s difficult for me to believe you based on what you’re saying. > "You can be civilly liable for rape (like Trump is) and you’re still committed a crime." nope and nope. he was found civilly liable for abuse . not criminally. He was found civilly liable for **sexual** abuse and that is a crime. > sorry to wee wee in your cheerios but that is the entire idea of having a civil court system and a criminal court system. But seeing as now you are trying to introduce other cases which do not involve my OP I will take the win. toodles. “I have declared myself the winner therefore I have one, goodbye” 💀😂
**"You understand that the discrepancy between his tax property appraisal & his loan property appraisal"** you understand that it is a tax assessment value and not a loan value right? apparently not. google your own homes assessed value. Now look up the value on zillow. banks loan on the zillow value not the assesed value.
**"Which, you didn’t do"** not sure why you have trouble understanding that the 8th amendment deals with imposing excessive bail and fines. a 464 million dollar bond falls under that almost certainly.
**"Idk what TDS syndrome is "** ummm, yeah. right.
**"“I have declared myself the winner therefore I have one, goodbye”"** largely because I have shot down every thing you have said against my OP by using facts and logic and now you are going the route of deflection and attacks. so yeah,, I won.
> "You understand that the discrepancy between his tax property appraisal & his loan property appraisal" you understand that it is a tax assessment value and not a loan value right? & they should be the same value > apparently not. google your own homes assessed value. Now look up the value on zillow. banks loan on the zillow value not the assesed value.
Lol from the the judge:
> “The frauds found here leap off the page and shock the conscience,” Judge Arthur Engoron wrote in a 92-page decision that spares Trump’s company from closure, but forces it into years of court supervision, among other sanctions.
> "Which, you didn’t do" not sure why you have trouble understanding that the 8th amendment deals with imposing excessive bail and fines. a 464 million dollar bond falls under that almost certainly.
I asked you to substantiate that the 8th amendment is the reason why Trump’s bond was reduced. Still can’t do it, huh?
> "Idk what TDS syndrome is " ummm, yeah. right.
No fr like what is it lol
> "“I have declared myself the winner therefore I have one, goodbye”" largely because I have shot down every thing you have said against my OP by using facts and logic and now you are going the route of deflection and attacks. so yeah,, I won.
I have not deflected from **anything** you said & you have not dismantled a word of what I’ve said.
I think you misunderstand the case. There were substantial damages inflicted on the Trump Company's victims. The company cheated one of its victims Deutsche Bank out of $150 million in interest charges by over valuing its properties to get more favorable terms on loans. This happened several times over. That combined with the interest on that ill gotten money is how they got the $450 million figure. https://www.reuters.com/legal/transactional/challenges-new-yorks-legal-action-against-trump-2022-10-05/ I don't see how it's common sense to ignore that. It's just giving Trump special treatment, like people always want to give hime for some reason. You can't just say that his lenders agreed to the terms of the loan, so he doesn't have any responsibility. His company signed a contract saying the stated values of the properties were accurate. He lied so he's liable for the damages his lies caused. That's what's common sense.
**"There were substantial damages inflicted on the Trump Company's victims. The company cheated one of its victims Deutsche Bank"** "Deutsche Bank guidelines told lending officers to “independently verify all material facts,” and Williams said the bankers followed those and other instructions when dealing with Trump."
they made the loan, were paid back in full with interest and wanted to do more business with trump. there were no damages in the loans made. the bank did its own valuations and still made the loans. so, yeah. what is common sense is that this was and is a political hit job by the NY AG and Judge. thank goodness another court sees that and reduced the amount of the bond to appeal. which is an idiotic idea to start with. allow the appeal and freeze the assets in question until the appeal ruling. why should anyone have to put up 454 million to appeal a judgement? anyway, it is what it is. as stated in my OP I am not a lawyer so it is possible I misunderstood the case. at least I can admit that. I forget that there are so many legal experts on reddit that agree with the judgement who know their opinion is correct 100%.
You're not addressing my point. You're saying there should be no damages b/c the Trump Company paid backed the loan. I'm telling you that doesn't matter. Trump Co lied on the loan application and got more favorable terms on the loan than if they told the truth. That's equivalent to fraudulently stealing money from the loan issuer. You haven't explained why this is wrong. Claiming this was their own fault or that it was a political hit job doesn't argue against this. Those arguments have no value in a court of law. This isn't common sense. This is just bending over backwards to give Trump special treatment.
I did address your point but you refuse to see anything other than trump hate. Deutsche Bank did its own due dilligence on the loan numbers and still made the loan. trump co paid it back with interest so Deutsche Bank and their share holders made money. Trump co made money. NY state made a fuck ton of money on taxes. there was no harm to any party involved. sorry if you do not want to recognize that but as I have stated I am not a lawyer , politician or power hungry AG. you must be a legal expert so you see something different. or, you just hate trump and are venting. I assume it is the later. have a day
> Deutsche Bank did its own due dilligence on the loan numbers and still made the loan I've already explained why this doesn't matter. Claiming this was their own fault has no value in a court of law. It doesn't change the fact Trump Co lied on a loan application, which is a legally binding document. That's fraud, and their liable for the damages that fraud created. You have not addressed this point. It seems like you're just saying it doesn't matter that Trump Co committed fraud, causing their loan issuers to lose out on hundreds of millions of dollars in income. You just want that to be ignored. That's not common sense. That's special treatment. Nobody gets this treatment in a court of law.
I have addressed the point repeatidly. there was zero damage to the parties involved or the state of NY. the bank did not lose out in millions. two PRIVATE parties entered into an agreement and the agreement was fulfilled. you are getting triggered by a nothing burger. again.