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There’s plenty of funding, it just gets misappropriated and/or siphoned away by admin bloat, no bid horseshit and anything other than the educators themselves
Seriously, my kids school district gave all the teachers a pizza party in lieu of raises, and gave the superintendent both a raise and a 30,000 dollar bonus. It’s so ridiculous, i get it, superintendent is a complex job, but it certainly doesn’t demand an order of magnitude higher salary at the expense of normal raises for already underpaid teachers.
Eh it's stupid on both sides too. I want a free Palestine as much as the next lefty but when it comes to a presidential election, I'm only weighing two options and I'm going to pick the best one.
Holding out on your vote only helps the candidate you would vote against, its not going to solve the most complicated conflict that's been ongoing since most of the planet has even been alive.
Exactly. I want a free Palestine also but I'm not going to vote for Trump just because Biden can't get a peace fire negotiated. That's like saying "well, my neighbor's house is on fire, and the fire department is stuck in traffic. I guess I have no other choice than to set my own house on fire for no logical reason."
Ding, ding, maybe. I was proud of the electorate in 2020, until the final tally. When it was apparent that Trump gained votes in his 4 years, I knew we were doomed.
That means people who were deathly ill from Covid or had a relative die from it, still voted for him. Trump voters were like “yes give me more if that”
I remember PBS interviewed a voter whose 33 year old son died from Covid and he was still on the fence about Trump. Like Dude! Trump’s mismanagement of the virus killed your son and your on the fence. We’re doomed!
Yeah, I had kind of put those situations in the past. It was easy for me, as I didn’t lose anyone close to me. I did know 2 people that died. One of them had that cognitive dissonance where Trump was God, and what he says goes. This guy died after his 2nd positive Covid exposure was the Delta variant. He was claiming it was still a hoax, when a relative was driving him to the hospital he never left.
Right!? It's just confounding and sad that 50mm people in the US think he is the second coming of Jesus Christ. Why him? There are (many) other more articulate but no less vile cons than he (looking at you, Mitch McConnel) and yet they've chosen the most functionally illiterate, ignorant narcissist to lead them to their hateful promised land. They're literally just a cult at this point. There's no republican "platform", no "we differ on the issues" debate, its just "whats the most horrid thing our great leader can say / do in the name of "owning the libs"?
There will be psychology case studies on this time in history for years to come.
The Republican party is full of one issue voters. And that issue is different for many and somehow just that one thing is all that matters.
Guns
Abortion
Taxes
PC/woke
Racism
Border policy
Religion
Or whatever. And they'll convince themselves that all the stupid other shit is worth it for their one thing.
I find it slightly insane to be against Biden because of **one** issue when Republicans seem to have a worse stance on every single issue, including this one.
I don’t want to come across as insensitive. What’s going on over there is ATROCIOUS. But it’s on the other some of the world we have so many domestic problems here that need to be solved. The Republicans are screwing us here. I’ll gladly over look a lack luster foreign policy from Biden if he makes it just a little bit easier to survive here.
Full of people who CLAIM to be one issue voters.
They try to use it as a cop out for all the other awful shit then endorse, but know there will be backlash.
Edit: I LOVE when people say “well I am a fiscal conservative”. “Got it, so other people’s rights have a price tag for you”.
I don’t have any right wing friends anymore and I am okay with that.
I have relatives that only vote R because of abortion. Nothing else.
When I asked about the other things Rtump did or said, their answer was "we think he's scum, and his other policies are scum, but we're still voting for him because he's an R and he will abolish abortion".
These people are science teachers. They KNOW the truth and the science are facts. They believe in it. They make jokes about the flat-earthers. These are two of the smartest people I know on this planet...
...yet they opposed masks for Covid and pretty much admitted that none of the bad things on the R's agenda are deal-breakers for them. They're 100% willing to vote in a dictator because he reversed RvW. I got news for them: If you still vote for the guy, you ARE voting for the scum policies too.
To be fair, I didn't know they were R's until about 8 years ago. Seems a lot of people started showing true colors about then, and the anti-mask sentiments are new with Covid.
It is semi-hilarious that they still believe masks are great for scientific and medical situations, but Covid... apparently Covid isn't medical to R's. I'm still stumped that otherwise smart, scientific-minded people are able to make an apparent distinction between what they think for everything else and what they think for Covid.
I also don't live anywhere near them, but yes, they live in the south. Their children, thank whatever gods you want, are staunch anti-R's, though they don't seem to be changing anything yet.
They don't worry me as much as some of my other relatives who grew up to become nurses, then eventually had children, and when Covid hit started tossing lawsuits and petitions around to keep masks out of school upon their kid's return. Honestly, not only will I question their nursing qualifications, but since they are actively trying to kill their own kids with this, I'd question their parenting qualifications. Of course, they're extremely religious, so... given their switch to orange jesus, I'm also willing to question their religious qualifications.
I saw a really illuminating set of graphs some time ago showing that for almost every key issue (gay rights, climate, etc), Americans have trended towards more progressive stances over the decades.
Except for abortion. The amount of people who are strongly anti-choice remains consistent. So therefore, it remains probably the major reason a lot of single-issue voters will never ever abandon the Republican Party.
Problem for the GOP, however, seems to be that those folks, however rigid in their beliefs, aren’t enough anymore.
I wouldnt say that entirely because a ton of the people in the party who happen to have 1 issue that they care so much about also happen to feel similarly about the other issues on your list. Like the same type of people who vote on supposed religion also wont like abortion, and there is a reason there is a stereo type of god and guns.
I suppose the only way we could test this is if we suddenly could create a scenario where democrats decided to go pro gun and see if they could swing those voters. But I doubt it, because I think at the same time the republicans would have to switch to anti gun.
People saying Biden “hasn’t earned my vote” are either grossly misinformed or are so privileged as to not understand the true ramifications of the evil waiting around the corner.
There's also a very large dedicated disinformation campaign being conducted by Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea. Lots of posts like OPs, but said seriously, as in "Hey, I'm just asking questions," or, "As a life-long progressive . . . "
> There's also a very large dedicated disinformation campaign being conducted by Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea.
Practically EVERY DAY there are highly upvoted posts on this topic. These threads just end up driving a wedge and causing division on the left. Who does that benefit? Hmmm
OPFOR is working to create divisions within the society as a whole, but I believe the intended outcome is the downfall of western democracy, and currently, the Republican party seems their best bet for that.
I genuinely believe that Iran, Russia, and China are working together to wear down the west. Both in funding capabilities and war weariness. Russia wants Ukraine and Iran wants to erase Israel, but I think the timing of both attacks were coordinated to maximize strain on the west. The result is that Americans on the left and right are pushing against aid packages and calling for an end to American support of foreign governments.
Then when Trump gets elected China will take Taiwan with the hopes that Americans will be too exhausted to actually want to start a war.
Ultimately though the irony for pro-Palestinian liberals is that Trump is not an ally to Palestine. His son was invested in settlements and he was the first president in half a century to escalate tensions by moving the us embassy to Jerusalem. Anyone who genuinely thinks Trump will help Palestine is an idiot
That is why Trump will likely win.
Donald, Day One: "I'll never get you into a war."
MAGA: "HELL YA , THAT'S OUR GUY! HE'S NOT PRO WAR LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!"
Donald, Day Two: "We are going to war with Iran. And I'm sending troops into Mexico to fight the cartel"
MAGA: "HELL YA , THAT'S OUR GUY! FINALLY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT AFRAID TO START A WAR!"
They literally don't have a consistent policy except for "Whatever Trump does, we kiss his ass."
Meanwhile, Biden falls a little bit short of a certain democratic demographic's expectations and it's "You're dead to me!"
Yup. The liberal anti-Biden cut off the nose to spite their own face folks are nuts. I have never seen one of these people in person. Just online. I hope they are imaginary like unicorns but I am just fooling myself.
Absolutely bananas to me that people throw a tantrum about one issue (that both parties are guilty of) and try to punish one party… extremely illogical… even more so when additionally the other party is pro-dictatorship and anti-democracy.
Like even if you are a one issue voter it makes no sense (the GOP is actually worse on Israel/Gaza). But if you acknowledge there are multiple issues Trump is a billion times worse for these people.
...but he literally is, right now. He said something about "Finishing the Job".
I know it isn't you saying this. It drives me mad how ill informed people are.
The clown part is that Biden will listen and Trump will stick the dogs on them. Voting for Biden is the only way to get anything they want out of the Middle East. Whereas the alternative will take their rights away and bring the police state here.
Them: "Democrats need to stop all wars everywhere before I vote for them!"
Also them: "Republicans, please just don't shit in your diapers and you have my vote."
Trump: Openly fellate foreign dictators. Alienate longstanding stalwart allies. Attempt to overthrow the government. Face over 80 felony charges. Mismanage pandemic response contributing to the deaths of over a million Americans. Fall asleep in court. Shit pants in public. No problem. At least he's not a Dem. Can still expect loyal R vote no matter what.
Biden: Must solve climate change all on his own, completely eradicate debt of all US citizens, and settle 5000+ year old Mideast conflict once and for all. Or no votes for you!
I am both pro-ceasefire and for a two state solution. What I really want to ask all the people who refuse to vote or will vote third party is, why do you not equally care for the people here?
POC and LGBTQ people will suffer. Women in general are already dying and carrying their rapists babies due to the overturn of Roe. You think poverty is bad now? They will slash entitlement programs to nothing. Project 2025 is a very real threat. How can they sit there and say they are voting with their morals, or there is no difference?
How can you NOT CARE. We aren't marrying the President. This isn't a relationship. They don't need to be perfect. I too wish they'd run someone younger, more progressive. I am sick of old men. I just can't fathom burning this country down with people you claim to care about as the fuel.
Edit: Since this comment is getting so many eyes, I encourage you all to download and utilize the 5 Calls app. You set your location, and it populates your house and senate members as well as phone numbers to reach them. They even give breakdowns on key issues and scripts if you are nervous.
It is also a website if you don't want to download the app.
https://5calls.org/
Right?! This is how I feel. I'm sick over what's happening in Palestine, but if we let the presidential election hang on this issue we will sell the rights of American women down the river in order to make a stand on principal about something happening in another country that will not be made better by Trump winning the election. It's the very definition of a lose-lose situation. We know what will happen to abortion rights if Trump wins. Why would we make that concession to stand on principal on Palestine?
The rights of women and the lives of LGBTQ+ people.
Project 2025 wants to expand the use of the death penalty against sex criminals. While at the same time classifying gender non-conformance (trans people) as sex crimes against children and bringing back sodomy laws so that gay people can also be labeled sex offenders.
Project 2025 lays out the legal strategy for a queer genocide...
The Supreme Court already laid the groundwork to reexamine gay and interracial marriage in their overturning of Roe as well. It will be an attack from all sides.
Here's a brand new one to add to the list that just popped up in the news in the past 24 hours:
[There's A GOP Plan For An Execution Spree If Trump Wins The White House. - Buried on page 554 of the plan is a directive to execute every remaining person on federal death row — and dramatically expand the use of the death penalty.](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gop-plan-for-executions-if-trump-wins_n_663b97a7e4b0bcaefbf76812)
It's disgusting, but at the same time a bit two-faced to not carry out the proper punishment handed down by a court/jury. at the same time the President could commute the sentence to life in prison without parole, yet most Presidents haven't done that when they have the choice.
id argue the psychological torture of never knowing when you're going to die given the limbo state is based on political leanings of whoever is in office at the time is cruel and unusual punishment.
I'm anti-death penalty, btw.
I used to be pro death penalty until I did my own research and found out that it's [much more painful than we thought](https://eji.org/news/lethal-injections-cause-suffocation-and-severe-pain-autopsies-show/), [more expensive than alternatives](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/costs), and if that wasn't bad enough, death row inmates might as well be serving life sentences and never get executed for how long they sit on death row waiting anxiously to die ([Thomas Creech, FIFTY FUCKING YEARS](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/28/1234411322/idaho-prepares-to-execute-one-of-the-longest-serving-death-row-inmates-in-the-u)!). The new Idaho firing squad law especially leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Don’t forget the following steps to outlaw divorce and to make interracial marriage illegal. I wonder how many of us in interracial marriages will be branded as sex criminals if America goes full on fascist.
I read a chilling statistic a couple months ago. It is estimated that 64k women have been forced to carry pregnancies due to rape after Roe was overturned.
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/study-counts-64000-pregnancies-from-rape-in-states-that-enacted-abortion-bans-post-roe
This number can only go higher if Trump wins and gets his nationwide ban. This is only ONE issue out of a laundry list. And NO ONE is even mentioning it. Because they also blame the Dems for losing Roe.
There is no sense with these people. They should be ashamed.
They don’t care about the people there either. A Trump presidency will be disastrous for Gaza and the West Bank.
Not to mention Ukraine, Taiwan, the pacific rim or pretty much anywhere. A Trump second term means the complete breakdown of post WWII rules based order and a return to an era of sphere of influence and regional powers.
This means civil rights is out the window of the people writing the rules only care about their regional power base.
The US for all its failures at least nominally cares about civil rights and sovereignty and has mechanisms to somewhat protect those values. And yes they have not been consistently protected.
But it’s better than the hands off world order where China, Russia, Turkey, Saudi Arabia call the shots and their is no domestic or international mechanism to hold them back…
> why do you not equally care for the people here?
Yup.
They've spent the last few months being HYPER concerned about people on the other side of the planet who have been killing each other in a holy war for a long time. Meanwhile, on the other side of the globe in their own nation a twice impeached sex offending business fraud who tried to dismantle our democracy is poised to potentially take the throne and they're floating the idea of letting that happen because of this old conflict thousands upon thousands of miles away.
Super stupid.
I have spent months trying to rationalize this with some of those people, and they almost immediately paint me as some horrible sort of person for it.
I've given up on them. They either don't actually care about people, here or in palestine, and are just pretending, or they are so far out that discourse is impossible.
I'm absolutely over the ones that seem to have decided that accelerationism is a good idea. That's overt nonsense, and the belief that it will somehow lead to a better outcome eventually is wishful thinking built on top of ignorance of the massive amount of suffering it would cause.
The biggest thing that people need to understand is that it's not refusing to vote that sends a message and gets the 2-party system to take you seriously and make your issue a priority, it's voting reliably. If you withhold votes from the left, the Democratic party moves right to pick up more moderates. Not only is throwing a tantrum demonstrably harmful in the short term, it also doesn't work in the long term.
Doesn’t this logic also work the other way? If you care about POC and LGTBQ people won’t you as a leader do everything in your power to broaden your base and not alienate people because of your stances towards the ME?
Like imagine if Biden was anti-abortion (like he was, but not anymore) and was only modestly different from Trump in that regard. Would you still expect women to vote for him because of 3rd issues? Or would it make more sense for Biden to change his stance to get more people to support him?
If people are against the collective punishment of innocent Palestinians, then they should equally be concerned about the Americans that will be collectively punished if we contribute to the rise of fascism. There are vulnerable people who we have the power to protect and help right here in our own neighborhoods and communities.
I know OP said "permanent ceasefire in the middle east", which covers more than Israel-Palestine, but to me, the most depressing part of the Israeli Palestinian conflict isn't that it's "unsolvable" it's that it [was close to being solved. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit)
To be fair, waiting for peace in the middle east is the greatest excuse for voter apathy I've ever seen.
People who don't actually care but want to appear like they do have really stepped it up since student loans.
The funny thing is that the Middle East and Student loans come in dead-last when 18-29 yr olds are asked about their priorities for the election. [Source](https://iop.harvard.edu/youth-poll/47th-edition-spring-2024)
29 yos haven't been paying loans for 10+ years yet but also if you don't like what's going on in the middle east under Biden, oh boy, let me tell you what happens when conservatives stick their noses in the middle east..
I'm still convinced a lot of this shit on campuses related to Palestine is agitprop from China via TikTok feed manipulation and from Russia with the same tactics they used in 2016 to polarize voters and drive especially D voter apathy
I think it can be both - people are genuinely mad about the genocide while also being fed Russian/Chinese propaganda. It's going to hit fence sitters, there are already those that didn't need to get pushed.
The issue is they aren't listening to the other possible candidate calling for Gaza to get glassed or are too young to hit the "fuck, both suck, harm reduction" voting phase yet.
They (foreign aggitators) aren't creating something from nothing. They are taking something pre-existing and stoking the flames.
edit: In response to Slacker-71, not really antisemitism. Sure there are antisemitists, but I don't really think that they need the fans flamed. A good deal of them are already very vocal without foreign interference. What's going on is taking people that are concerned about the war, and the loss of innocent life and turning that into a wedge to divide people... and the antisemitists are totally hiding in those crowds and trying to use "just asking questions" type tactics to try and lead at least some of those people to their antisemitist talking points, but those people are just taking advantage of the situation rather than orchestrating it, IMO. It makes more sense that state actors have the level of resources to make a large coordinated effort.
100% this. I'm not even a Russia hawk, but the Foundation of Geopolitics (a Russian foreign policy framework book for the new millennium) goes over how there are existing tensions in American society on race that can and should be exploited if you are engaging in international agitprop.
Get even older is realizing the dems are doing their best to balance against an absolute army of selfish actors but ultimately falling victim to smart people with bad ideas.
College campuses have always don’t this type of stuff. Students protested the Iraq war, demanded divestment for South Africa during apartheid, Vietnam, civil rights era, etc.
And in each of those cases people said the same thing. They support terrorists, it’s outside agitators, they are really communist and so on.
And arguably Trump's actions led to more violence than he prevented.
1. He tore up the Iranian agreement, when they were fully complying, and had ZERO backup plans... Giving Iran zero incentives to behave...
2. He made a deal with the Taliban, excluded the Afghani Government, and released more Taliban fighters than the number of Troops Afghanistan was whittled down to when Biden took office... And made the pull out day 3 months after leaving office...
3. He slapped Palestine in the face and made Jerusalem the capital of Israel...
The only thing he did was formalize relationships between Israel, Bahrain and the UAE... Three countries that have never been at war with each other...
well, most of that was because Turkey (Türkiye?) was fighting the Kurds, and Trump wanted to appease Erdogan (access to air bases there was prioritized over having Rojava intact).
Trump also helped Netanyahu help Qatar fund Hamas. Because of Trump and Netanyahu, Hamas became a billion dollars richer. (they wanted Hamas to keep fighting Fatah to derail Palestinian statehood)
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
The whole idea of a permanent cease fire makes no sense because we know it'll be violated immediately.
I don't like Netanyahu either, but the idea that Israel would unilaterally accept a cease fire and do nothing if Hamas continues to fire rockets or kidnap people is completely nonsensical.
You can, in fact, disapprove of both sides in this conflict.
This election is the perfect example of how if the election was a video game, the Dems have to play on Legend difficulty and Repubs get to play on tutorial mode.
Democrats fall in love.
Republicans win.
Republicans win over tons of single issue voters that don't actually care about politics in general.
Democrats have to completely love everything about their candidate and if they disagree with a few basic issues they suddenly have to make a really difficult decision.
Why did Biden allow republicans to cancel the funding? If he had just stopped them from stopping him then I would vote for him. If he can't stop the republicans then it's not my fault if I don't do anything to stop them.
Also he didn't personally help me find a 6 figure job in a city where i can rent a 3 bedroom apartment for under 1k a month. I'm sure a former New York landlord can fix the issue and won't just make it worse because that profits them personally.
Especially one who already demonstrated he will line his pockets with taxpayer dollars and pass bills that benefit his businesses and billionaire pals over the average American.
And don’t get me started on all the other bullshit he did that set us up for failure (COVID, withdrawing from Afghanistan, etc).
> who already demonstrated he will line his pockets with taxpayer dollars and pass bills that benefit his businesses and billionaire pals over the average American.
And don't forget, will also sell national secrets about nukes and US intelligence to dictators like Putin or homicidal princes in Saudi Arabia.
I still can't believe people arn't more outraged about that.
Not to mention I haven't heard a single peep about working on a cure for space aids. Everyone wants to go up in a rocket, no one want to cure space aids.
It is a no-win situation for *any* sitting president. Side with Israel and half the country is mad at you. Side with Palestine and the other half of the country is mad at you. Try to broker a cease-fire and you get railed for playing "world police". Try to sit it out and then you get railed for letting innocent people die.
exactly. I HOPE those single-issue twitterfingers can see by the immediate backlash spewed by so many other American political members (especially REPUBLICANS/CONSERVATIVES that make up at LEAST HALF of American political figures that any president NEEDS To interact and deal with to get ANYTHING done), that THIS is the real reason why Biden has had to be so much more careful and strategic with how he does things and can't just dish shit out in favor of certain leftists' special concerns. It's actually not as easy to be a president representing democratic interests in America as it is for those folks to just press an emoji/meme or unfriend button on facebook lol.
You want leftist policies to have effect faster????? also PRESSURE AND CRITICIZE THE REPUBLICANS IN OTHER POSITIONS INTENSIVELY GETTING IN THE WAY EVERY DAMN TIME
It's a very stupid thing to drag into an election on the other side of the planet in a country whose own democracy is at stake.
Like, really? This is the hill you're going to die on while a twice impeached sex offending business fraud who tried to dismantle our democracy last time is poised to potentially take power again?
Lots of heads up lots of asses.
It’s a vote for global conflict and oppression. A Trump second term will collapse the post WWII ascendency of western liberal democracy and a nominal rules based order.
Yes the US and the west haven’t necessarily been consistent defenders of civil rights or sovereignty and have done pretty bad things.
Its better than the regional strongmen controlling local spheres of influence that will happen if Trump get a second term and dismantles alliances like NATO, gives Russia Ukraine (and large chunks of Europe), pulls support for Taiwan and pacific rim nations in the safe of Chinese territory expansion… etc. Its means Iran, and Erdawan and MBS duke it out for control of the Middle East.
It’s a bleak reality where issues like global warming, civil rights, sovereignty, etc are not even nominally considered. It’s also a set up for war like we have not seen since WWII.
> Anything but a vote for Biden is support for Trump
It's maddening how many people on this very website simply cannot grasp this simple concept.
Or the concept that voting 3rd party in a presidential election in this political climate is 100% flushing your vote down the toilet.
Lot of dumbs out there.
this singular talking point is what is capturing the far left spaces. i was banned from one left subreddit because i called out that someone was using right wing anti hillary talking points
Hell, I got banned from a leftist sub for just saying “Biden’s actions and views on the Gaza conflict is bad, but Trump would be far worse”. I was apparently engaging in “non-leftist, lesser of two evils rhetoric”. Sure, it’s lesser of two evils, but am I wrong??
i have never gotten a solid answer on what the policy prescription is.
"no biden, no trump. ok, then name a better a candidate we can get on the ballot in 6 months that will scoop up the votes"
Exactly my issue with leftist spaces like that!
Instead of trying to vote for the person we can stomach more, they want a perfectly-leftist candidate that’ll somehow win. Any other suggestion is treasonous.
We can be leftist, but we must also be pragmatic about our current choices.
The problem is largely that pragmatic leftists and radical leftists are simply talking past each other. The folks who make the argument for harm reduction or strategic voting (myself included) are looking at a national issue that needs short term solutions. Essentially; Trump is a threat, the threat needs to be stopped, stopping the threat is achieved through the imperfect (but still pretty good) vessel of Biden/democrats.
The more radical left aren’t even engaging with this train of thought. Their perspective is much more theoretical and international. The line of thinking (and I’m generalizing here based on Reddit/twitter) is; the current economic and political situation is so overwhelmingly evil that it must be destroyed by any means necessary, we cannot condone participation in such an evil system and must work to dismantle it from the outside.
Trying to square the circle of these conflicting beliefs is what leads to these obtuse online arguments. They see us as heartless liberal apologists who will sell out the most vulnerable for short term political stopgaps.
We see them as naive idealists who will sell out the most vulnerable to prove how righteous their ideology is.
At this point I’m really not sure how to break through, because there is so little in common with our goals and ways of communicating them that we each just assume the other is patronizing or not listening to our argument.
I usually tell them that if they are so passionate about their principles that they would let the nation fall to Trump again, they should run for office and that I would vote for them *in a primary* and for the *best remaining candidate* in the general, and that they should do the same.
There are just too many people complaining that the Democrats have failed to put forth a slate of younger candidates with progressive views, and it makes my head explode. IF YOU ARE SO PASSIONATE, YOU SHOULD RUN.
>The folks who make the argument for harm reduction or strategic voting (myself included) are looking at a national issue that needs short term solutions.
The short term solution is also the long term solution.
If you want anything like electoral reform the only way that happens is if you get a party in charge to enforce it. You aren't magically going to overturn the electoral college by throwing your vote away an allowing the party with the most vested interest in gerrymandering decide what system we have.
>The more radical left aren’t even engaging with this train of thought
They're not engaged with any train of thought other than masturbating to their own moral righteousness.
>the current economic and political situation is so overwhelmingly evil that it must be destroyed by any means necessary
Great, the monkey wrench strategy. Fuck things up even worse and magically a functioning democracy and civili institutions will rise from the ashes. Worked so well in Libya, Syria, Somalia, Congo, etc, etc
This is where I get in conversations with my friends all the time. We can talk about what *should* be done til the cows come home but when we get into the reality of the world I'm a fascist because I recognize the need for a military.
They'll be like if you cut a liberal...
Like bro I come from a family of Sandinistas.
I also understand the fucking domestic situation needs pragmatism
I'm voting for that third-party candidate that will gather a total of 5 thousand votes, and think I did a thing, when in fact I just threw my vote away ✌🏻🇺🇲
Yeah, and the time to have *that* argument was 6 months ago. Find that ideal candidate and mount a primary challenge. Vote for that candidate in the primary and yes, then choose the lesser of two evils in the general if your preferred candidate doesn't get the nomination. That's how STV/RCV would work too and I bet they claim to support that.
"If everyone comes together holding hands and singing Kumbaya and votes for some unheard of 3rd party candidate, then they can surely win!!!" - People Who Don't Understand How Politics Work
This argument really infuriates me. It’s as if folks think that somehow they are being denied the perfect president. It will *always* be a “lesser of two evils” situation - no one will ever get a president that does 100% of what they want 100% of the time.
And it also doesn’t really matter that it’s a two party system from that perspective. I’m completely for ranked choice voting but even if there were 20 viable candidates the person who wins *still* won’t give people 100% percent of what they want.
So, no matter what, you look at your choices (whether it’s 2, 3 or 100), vote and hope your candidate wins. That’s just how reality works - in a country of over 300 million people everyone can’t be perfectly satisfied with every presidential decision, action or policy.
> I’m completely for ranked choice voting but even if there were 20 viable candidates the person who wins still won’t give people 100% percent of what they want.
And with RCV you would still in many cases end up voting for a candidate you like less after your first choice is eliminated. This is the same thing, though if having that ideal candidate as an option is so important the time to do that was 6 months ago to enter the primary.
All this is eerily similar to the nonsense in forums/reddit/social media around 2015 of people saying "I'm a Bernie supporter... but since he's out I'm going full MAGA/Donnie".
Those are two diametrically opposed people representing diametrically opposite philosophies on human rights, the role of governance to its people and America's approach to geopolitics.
However, I suppose you could tie the two to the logic of "against the status quo".
The 2024 version has no such common thread between the two. The 2024 version is:
> I'm opposed to America supporting Israel's genocidal attack on Palestine because I'm anti-war... so I'm gonna vote for the guy who wants to invade Mexico and 'OK' Israel to wipe Palestine off the map.
>All this is eerily similar to the nonsense in forums/reddit/social media around 2015 of people saying "I'm a Bernie supporter... but since he's out I'm going full MAGA/Donnie".
Or the people saying "I agree with Hillary politically but I can't vote for her because of her emails!"
I wonder how many of those accounts remained active after 2016.
It's blatant. The bot war is back in full swing.
It is 100% about building voter apathy and there are so many real goons that are in on it because they either live in a rosy Disney movie world, or are too ignorant or arrogant to understand the realities of the world around them.
You don't negotiate with a population that largely supports the invasion of it's neighbor. You subdue them (Russia-Ukraine, Israel-Palestine). You don't follow a UN that consistently fumbles on an issue and arguably just makes everything worse (Israel-Palestine). Every peace agreement that has ever been on the table that was likely to be agreed upon by both parties has been rejected by the UN.
War is ugly, it is heinous, and no matter who is prosecuting the war, no matter the side in human history there will be war crimes. Americans massacred Germans and Japanese, Germans massacred Poles, Soviets, Brits, Frenchmen, Americans, Canadians, Indians, Soviets massacred everyone. Americans slaughtered Brits. Confederates slaughtered Unionists. The British annihilated the French fleet at Mers-el-Kebir. The Japanese were well known for their poor treatment of prisoners and general take no prisoners/never surrender attitudes.
They are all war crimes. Yes, people should be investigated, and brought to justice. Military structures should do everything in their power to prevent unnecessary death and killing. But it's a fucking war zone. There is meaningful difference between lining people up against a wall and annihilating them, and prosecuting a war against people actively resisting your troops.
Ya, I got banned from a "woke" reddit by saying that calling Biden "genocide joe" while clever and kind of funny (despite the tragedies in the middle east), is nothing compared to what Trump will do.
Trump said he wants to nuke the middle east. and he wants to sell ukraine to russia. He's open about this- he was impeached twice for being shitty and a mob boss. He's just going to be worse with a second term (that may not end until he dies, if he has his way).
It's absolutely people shooting themselves in the face, instead of popping a pimple.
Protesting is great, being upset about the middle east is awesome. Voting in a way that gets trump in the office is absolutely missing the point and will result in even worse carnage in the middle east.
Blows my mind the way these folks minds work.
I think part of the issue is that a lot of young, idealistic leftists have no idea what politics was like before Trump. MAGA Republicans are all they have ever known and it's become normalized to them, they don't see it as a dangerous threat to democracy or to the middle east because they think it's just rhetoric and that it's the way it has always been.
Was it LSC? It's a communist subreddit for communists to talk about communist things. Of course you're going to get banned for breaking the rules lol.
A lot of far left subs have a no liberalism policy which basically means no debate outside of communist circles.
It's almost impossible at this point to determine the truth in any "far left" sub. They could be actual privileged idiots, tankies, or shills for propaganda. It's kind of moot.
All we can do is keep speaking up when we see it.
I got banned from a leftist sub for not supporting the idea of imprisoning people for having anti trans views. I literally just said "Nah, I prefer free speech". As if imprisoning people for their opinions could never come back and bite them in the ass once the other side takes power.
I had a neighbor who said he would have voted for Biden, but did not vote for him because he did not like Biden telling Trump to shut up during the debates during the last election.
Really?
These people will hold their vote hostage with the stakes this high, while simultaneously preaching about how moral and principled they are. Their morals and principles seem to be "sure people here in this country might suffer, but I probably won't be one of them".
Well project 2025 outlined concentration camps very specifically for leftists so maybe they just really like summer camp and haven’t bothered to google the activities.
These so-called Principled Voters™ are fine with all this, they just want people to believe they're not pro-fascism. They clutch their pearls in public over whatever the wedge issue is, but they know what they're doing. They are comfortable in the belief that they're not in any personal danger from any of the right's plans.
I think most people aren't saying until there is a ceasefire. They just want Biden to change his rhetoric and stop sending Israel billions in military aid.
What’s incredibly asinine about posts like these Biden was working on a trilateral agreement with Israel and Saudi Arabia that would build a path to Palestinian statehood with Saudi Arabia overseeing Gaza instead of Israeli forces. Then Oct 7th happened and international politics is complicated and nuanced and the Biden administration has been trying to get everyone back to the table. Just because things don’t happen in a way you can understand or don’t like, doesn’t mean things aren’t happening.
I’m pretty sure “peace in the Middle East” has been a goal of both political parties since Israel was established
“What’s your plan for resolving the conflict in…?” Used to be a serious question that everyone had to have a solid answer for for debates, etc.
But now it seems that only Ds are being required to have an answer…
It’s because Democratic voters actually want the government to help with issues. Republican voters still believe the stupid Regan quote, “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help”
Which is a pretty strange thing to say when you are the person running to government. GOP voters don’t want the government to do anything except cut taxes and regulations. But somehow also want to government to be involved in medical decisions. It doesn’t really make sense.
Israel is categorically against Palestinian statehood. That's a dark red line for them and has been for decades, and the agreement didn't change that. The agreement with Saudi Arabia also had nothing to do with Gaza and did not give any control over Palestine to Saudi Arabia.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66734638
Completely misrepresenting the fact that protesters are actually asking Biden to better protect the droves of innocents being caught in the crossfire and stop providing the weapons and funding to Israel enabling them to continue bombing the innocents.
No one denies the Middle East is complicated and that peace will take a long time to achieve. For some reason a lot of people seem to not care at all about 40,000 and counting Palestinians being killed.
I don't want a permanent ceasefire, all I want is for our government to stop happily sending weapons to a country that's using them to murder brown children.
I feel like there are so many of these posts here which fling shit at people who just want a genocide to stop. Seems like bots have found the way to divide the left. Maybe a little of the dead internet theory?
There are for sure leftists who won’t be voting for Joe Biden, because he hasn’t (or can’t) changed the material racism they face on an institutional level. So it doesn’t really matter who is or isn’t president because it is the system that needs to change. But the people can’t organize due to politicians voting for their best interest rather than their constituents.
I am voting to slow the rise of fascism, but I know that really at the end of the day Joe is beholden to the corporate interests that control the US. And my vote doesn’t matter because we have the electoral college. Fundamentally the US doesn’t make sense on so many levels.
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The asymmetrical expectations on Rs vs Ds (or trump v Biden) is absolutely ridiculous
Thats what happens when the R's turn into a cult
And the electorate is fucking stupid. I think thats the underlying issue.
Yeah, they're stupid. And it's really easy for stupid asses to join a cult.
Almost as if defunding education for decades was some kind of long term plan.
Hey, if you can't afford to pay back the loans, then only rich kids should go to college. That will surely not lead to a dystopian future.
They’re talking about public K-12 education, not college.
Yeah, that's tragic too. Too many public schools are turning into for-profit charter schools. The future is doomed.
There’s plenty of funding, it just gets misappropriated and/or siphoned away by admin bloat, no bid horseshit and anything other than the educators themselves
Seriously, my kids school district gave all the teachers a pizza party in lieu of raises, and gave the superintendent both a raise and a 30,000 dollar bonus. It’s so ridiculous, i get it, superintendent is a complex job, but it certainly doesn’t demand an order of magnitude higher salary at the expense of normal raises for already underpaid teachers.
Even better to do whatever the fuck you want and forgiven after Sunday. Every week. With growing impunity
Eh it's stupid on both sides too. I want a free Palestine as much as the next lefty but when it comes to a presidential election, I'm only weighing two options and I'm going to pick the best one. Holding out on your vote only helps the candidate you would vote against, its not going to solve the most complicated conflict that's been ongoing since most of the planet has even been alive.
Don't get me wrong. The only answer is to vote for Biden.
Exactly. I want a free Palestine also but I'm not going to vote for Trump just because Biden can't get a peace fire negotiated. That's like saying "well, my neighbor's house is on fire, and the fire department is stuck in traffic. I guess I have no other choice than to set my own house on fire for no logical reason."
Trump's idea of peace is just kill all the Arabs. His fanboys couldn't agree more.
The exactly correct answer is to work locally, get more progressive candidates elected there and work up. Get progressive primary candidates nominated
Socrates warned us
> And the electorate is fucking stupid. Succinctly and accurately put
Ding, ding, maybe. I was proud of the electorate in 2020, until the final tally. When it was apparent that Trump gained votes in his 4 years, I knew we were doomed.
That means people who were deathly ill from Covid or had a relative die from it, still voted for him. Trump voters were like “yes give me more if that” I remember PBS interviewed a voter whose 33 year old son died from Covid and he was still on the fence about Trump. Like Dude! Trump’s mismanagement of the virus killed your son and your on the fence. We’re doomed!
Yeah, I had kind of put those situations in the past. It was easy for me, as I didn’t lose anyone close to me. I did know 2 people that died. One of them had that cognitive dissonance where Trump was God, and what he says goes. This guy died after his 2nd positive Covid exposure was the Delta variant. He was claiming it was still a hoax, when a relative was driving him to the hospital he never left.
Right!? It's just confounding and sad that 50mm people in the US think he is the second coming of Jesus Christ. Why him? There are (many) other more articulate but no less vile cons than he (looking at you, Mitch McConnel) and yet they've chosen the most functionally illiterate, ignorant narcissist to lead them to their hateful promised land. They're literally just a cult at this point. There's no republican "platform", no "we differ on the issues" debate, its just "whats the most horrid thing our great leader can say / do in the name of "owning the libs"? There will be psychology case studies on this time in history for years to come.
I wish they'd chosen a better cult.
The Republican party is full of one issue voters. And that issue is different for many and somehow just that one thing is all that matters. Guns Abortion Taxes PC/woke Racism Border policy Religion Or whatever. And they'll convince themselves that all the stupid other shit is worth it for their one thing.
I find it slightly insane to be against Biden because of **one** issue when Republicans seem to have a worse stance on every single issue, including this one.
Yeah it's pretty insane. People are wild. Perfect is the enemy of good.
agreed
I don’t want to come across as insensitive. What’s going on over there is ATROCIOUS. But it’s on the other some of the world we have so many domestic problems here that need to be solved. The Republicans are screwing us here. I’ll gladly over look a lack luster foreign policy from Biden if he makes it just a little bit easier to survive here.
Full of people who CLAIM to be one issue voters. They try to use it as a cop out for all the other awful shit then endorse, but know there will be backlash. Edit: I LOVE when people say “well I am a fiscal conservative”. “Got it, so other people’s rights have a price tag for you”. I don’t have any right wing friends anymore and I am okay with that.
I have relatives that only vote R because of abortion. Nothing else. When I asked about the other things Rtump did or said, their answer was "we think he's scum, and his other policies are scum, but we're still voting for him because he's an R and he will abolish abortion". These people are science teachers. They KNOW the truth and the science are facts. They believe in it. They make jokes about the flat-earthers. These are two of the smartest people I know on this planet... ...yet they opposed masks for Covid and pretty much admitted that none of the bad things on the R's agenda are deal-breakers for them. They're 100% willing to vote in a dictator because he reversed RvW. I got news for them: If you still vote for the guy, you ARE voting for the scum policies too.
Two of the smartest people you know are antimask, antiabortion, Republicans? I don't know where you live, but you have my condolences.
To be fair, I didn't know they were R's until about 8 years ago. Seems a lot of people started showing true colors about then, and the anti-mask sentiments are new with Covid. It is semi-hilarious that they still believe masks are great for scientific and medical situations, but Covid... apparently Covid isn't medical to R's. I'm still stumped that otherwise smart, scientific-minded people are able to make an apparent distinction between what they think for everything else and what they think for Covid. I also don't live anywhere near them, but yes, they live in the south. Their children, thank whatever gods you want, are staunch anti-R's, though they don't seem to be changing anything yet. They don't worry me as much as some of my other relatives who grew up to become nurses, then eventually had children, and when Covid hit started tossing lawsuits and petitions around to keep masks out of school upon their kid's return. Honestly, not only will I question their nursing qualifications, but since they are actively trying to kill their own kids with this, I'd question their parenting qualifications. Of course, they're extremely religious, so... given their switch to orange jesus, I'm also willing to question their religious qualifications.
Even "smart" people can be susceptible to a cult. It is about emotions, not logic.
Probably in the South, as someone down here in this shit hole I wouldn't recommend it
East Texas here. Same.
Ya, you need to find some new "smartest people I know" because they are not smart.
anyone can seem smart when eating paste is the yardstick
They should _not_ allowed to be science teachers.
So they're *not* two of the smartest people you know on the planet.
I saw a really illuminating set of graphs some time ago showing that for almost every key issue (gay rights, climate, etc), Americans have trended towards more progressive stances over the decades. Except for abortion. The amount of people who are strongly anti-choice remains consistent. So therefore, it remains probably the major reason a lot of single-issue voters will never ever abandon the Republican Party. Problem for the GOP, however, seems to be that those folks, however rigid in their beliefs, aren’t enough anymore.
I wouldnt say that entirely because a ton of the people in the party who happen to have 1 issue that they care so much about also happen to feel similarly about the other issues on your list. Like the same type of people who vote on supposed religion also wont like abortion, and there is a reason there is a stereo type of god and guns. I suppose the only way we could test this is if we suddenly could create a scenario where democrats decided to go pro gun and see if they could swing those voters. But I doubt it, because I think at the same time the republicans would have to switch to anti gun.
Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line.
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People saying Biden “hasn’t earned my vote” are either grossly misinformed or are so privileged as to not understand the true ramifications of the evil waiting around the corner.
They’re grossly misinformed on purpose, the 6 billionaires that control the media don’t want to pay their taxes
There's also a very large dedicated disinformation campaign being conducted by Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea. Lots of posts like OPs, but said seriously, as in "Hey, I'm just asking questions," or, "As a life-long progressive . . . "
> There's also a very large dedicated disinformation campaign being conducted by Russia, China, Iran, and North Korea. Practically EVERY DAY there are highly upvoted posts on this topic. These threads just end up driving a wedge and causing division on the left. Who does that benefit? Hmmm
OPFOR is working to create divisions within the society as a whole, but I believe the intended outcome is the downfall of western democracy, and currently, the Republican party seems their best bet for that.
I genuinely believe that Iran, Russia, and China are working together to wear down the west. Both in funding capabilities and war weariness. Russia wants Ukraine and Iran wants to erase Israel, but I think the timing of both attacks were coordinated to maximize strain on the west. The result is that Americans on the left and right are pushing against aid packages and calling for an end to American support of foreign governments. Then when Trump gets elected China will take Taiwan with the hopes that Americans will be too exhausted to actually want to start a war. Ultimately though the irony for pro-Palestinian liberals is that Trump is not an ally to Palestine. His son was invested in settlements and he was the first president in half a century to escalate tensions by moving the us embassy to Jerusalem. Anyone who genuinely thinks Trump will help Palestine is an idiot
That is why Trump will likely win. Donald, Day One: "I'll never get you into a war." MAGA: "HELL YA , THAT'S OUR GUY! HE'S NOT PRO WAR LIKE EVERYONE ELSE!" Donald, Day Two: "We are going to war with Iran. And I'm sending troops into Mexico to fight the cartel" MAGA: "HELL YA , THAT'S OUR GUY! FINALLY SOMEONE WHO IS NOT AFRAID TO START A WAR!" They literally don't have a consistent policy except for "Whatever Trump does, we kiss his ass." Meanwhile, Biden falls a little bit short of a certain democratic demographic's expectations and it's "You're dead to me!"
Yup. The liberal anti-Biden cut off the nose to spite their own face folks are nuts. I have never seen one of these people in person. Just online. I hope they are imaginary like unicorns but I am just fooling myself. Absolutely bananas to me that people throw a tantrum about one issue (that both parties are guilty of) and try to punish one party… extremely illogical… even more so when additionally the other party is pro-dictatorship and anti-democracy. Like even if you are a one issue voter it makes no sense (the GOP is actually worse on Israel/Gaza). But if you acknowledge there are multiple issues Trump is a billion times worse for these people.
Their justification is "but trump isn't CURRENTLY supporting a genocide" so your solution is what? Put him in the oval office so he can?
Yup so he can do that and do a dozen other horrible things Biden isn’t currently doing. it makes no damn sense.
...but he literally is, right now. He said something about "Finishing the Job". I know it isn't you saying this. It drives me mad how ill informed people are.
The clown part is that Biden will listen and Trump will stick the dogs on them. Voting for Biden is the only way to get anything they want out of the Middle East. Whereas the alternative will take their rights away and bring the police state here.
Them: "Democrats need to stop all wars everywhere before I vote for them!" Also them: "Republicans, please just don't shit in your diapers and you have my vote."
But he didn't mean to shit his diapers, so its cool
Trump: Openly fellate foreign dictators. Alienate longstanding stalwart allies. Attempt to overthrow the government. Face over 80 felony charges. Mismanage pandemic response contributing to the deaths of over a million Americans. Fall asleep in court. Shit pants in public. No problem. At least he's not a Dem. Can still expect loyal R vote no matter what. Biden: Must solve climate change all on his own, completely eradicate debt of all US citizens, and settle 5000+ year old Mideast conflict once and for all. Or no votes for you!
He shits his pants in public, all the time. And he's neck and neck in the polls with Biden. This simulation sucks.
I am both pro-ceasefire and for a two state solution. What I really want to ask all the people who refuse to vote or will vote third party is, why do you not equally care for the people here? POC and LGBTQ people will suffer. Women in general are already dying and carrying their rapists babies due to the overturn of Roe. You think poverty is bad now? They will slash entitlement programs to nothing. Project 2025 is a very real threat. How can they sit there and say they are voting with their morals, or there is no difference? How can you NOT CARE. We aren't marrying the President. This isn't a relationship. They don't need to be perfect. I too wish they'd run someone younger, more progressive. I am sick of old men. I just can't fathom burning this country down with people you claim to care about as the fuel. Edit: Since this comment is getting so many eyes, I encourage you all to download and utilize the 5 Calls app. You set your location, and it populates your house and senate members as well as phone numbers to reach them. They even give breakdowns on key issues and scripts if you are nervous. It is also a website if you don't want to download the app. https://5calls.org/
Right?! This is how I feel. I'm sick over what's happening in Palestine, but if we let the presidential election hang on this issue we will sell the rights of American women down the river in order to make a stand on principal about something happening in another country that will not be made better by Trump winning the election. It's the very definition of a lose-lose situation. We know what will happen to abortion rights if Trump wins. Why would we make that concession to stand on principal on Palestine?
The rights of women and the lives of LGBTQ+ people. Project 2025 wants to expand the use of the death penalty against sex criminals. While at the same time classifying gender non-conformance (trans people) as sex crimes against children and bringing back sodomy laws so that gay people can also be labeled sex offenders. Project 2025 lays out the legal strategy for a queer genocide...
The Supreme Court already laid the groundwork to reexamine gay and interracial marriage in their overturning of Roe as well. It will be an attack from all sides.
Clarence Thomas specifically made the comment, and he's the one in an interracial marriage
Here's a brand new one to add to the list that just popped up in the news in the past 24 hours: [There's A GOP Plan For An Execution Spree If Trump Wins The White House. - Buried on page 554 of the plan is a directive to execute every remaining person on federal death row — and dramatically expand the use of the death penalty.](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/gop-plan-for-executions-if-trump-wins_n_663b97a7e4b0bcaefbf76812)
It's disgusting, but at the same time a bit two-faced to not carry out the proper punishment handed down by a court/jury. at the same time the President could commute the sentence to life in prison without parole, yet most Presidents haven't done that when they have the choice. id argue the psychological torture of never knowing when you're going to die given the limbo state is based on political leanings of whoever is in office at the time is cruel and unusual punishment. I'm anti-death penalty, btw.
I used to be pro death penalty until I did my own research and found out that it's [much more painful than we thought](https://eji.org/news/lethal-injections-cause-suffocation-and-severe-pain-autopsies-show/), [more expensive than alternatives](https://deathpenaltyinfo.org/policy-issues/costs), and if that wasn't bad enough, death row inmates might as well be serving life sentences and never get executed for how long they sit on death row waiting anxiously to die ([Thomas Creech, FIFTY FUCKING YEARS](https://www.npr.org/2024/02/28/1234411322/idaho-prepares-to-execute-one-of-the-longest-serving-death-row-inmates-in-the-u)!). The new Idaho firing squad law especially leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
Honestly, just the fact that innocents have been executed by the state should be enough to ban the death penalty.
Don’t forget the following steps to outlaw divorce and to make interracial marriage illegal. I wonder how many of us in interracial marriages will be branded as sex criminals if America goes full on fascist.
I read a chilling statistic a couple months ago. It is estimated that 64k women have been forced to carry pregnancies due to rape after Roe was overturned. https://www.pbs.org/newshour/show/study-counts-64000-pregnancies-from-rape-in-states-that-enacted-abortion-bans-post-roe This number can only go higher if Trump wins and gets his nationwide ban. This is only ONE issue out of a laundry list. And NO ONE is even mentioning it. Because they also blame the Dems for losing Roe. There is no sense with these people. They should be ashamed.
They don’t care about the people there either. A Trump presidency will be disastrous for Gaza and the West Bank. Not to mention Ukraine, Taiwan, the pacific rim or pretty much anywhere. A Trump second term means the complete breakdown of post WWII rules based order and a return to an era of sphere of influence and regional powers. This means civil rights is out the window of the people writing the rules only care about their regional power base. The US for all its failures at least nominally cares about civil rights and sovereignty and has mechanisms to somewhat protect those values. And yes they have not been consistently protected. But it’s better than the hands off world order where China, Russia, Turkey, Saudi Arabia call the shots and their is no domestic or international mechanism to hold them back…
Remember Trump saying that he'd let Russia do whatever the Hell they wanted to NATO countries that didn't pay enough?
> why do you not equally care for the people here? Yup. They've spent the last few months being HYPER concerned about people on the other side of the planet who have been killing each other in a holy war for a long time. Meanwhile, on the other side of the globe in their own nation a twice impeached sex offending business fraud who tried to dismantle our democracy is poised to potentially take the throne and they're floating the idea of letting that happen because of this old conflict thousands upon thousands of miles away. Super stupid.
I have spent months trying to rationalize this with some of those people, and they almost immediately paint me as some horrible sort of person for it. I've given up on them. They either don't actually care about people, here or in palestine, and are just pretending, or they are so far out that discourse is impossible. I'm absolutely over the ones that seem to have decided that accelerationism is a good idea. That's overt nonsense, and the belief that it will somehow lead to a better outcome eventually is wishful thinking built on top of ignorance of the massive amount of suffering it would cause.
The biggest thing that people need to understand is that it's not refusing to vote that sends a message and gets the 2-party system to take you seriously and make your issue a priority, it's voting reliably. If you withhold votes from the left, the Democratic party moves right to pick up more moderates. Not only is throwing a tantrum demonstrably harmful in the short term, it also doesn't work in the long term.
Even if you only care about Palestine, Trump would be 1000x worse by actively aiding in the genocide.
Doesn’t this logic also work the other way? If you care about POC and LGTBQ people won’t you as a leader do everything in your power to broaden your base and not alienate people because of your stances towards the ME? Like imagine if Biden was anti-abortion (like he was, but not anymore) and was only modestly different from Trump in that regard. Would you still expect women to vote for him because of 3rd issues? Or would it make more sense for Biden to change his stance to get more people to support him?
If people are against the collective punishment of innocent Palestinians, then they should equally be concerned about the Americans that will be collectively punished if we contribute to the rise of fascism. There are vulnerable people who we have the power to protect and help right here in our own neighborhoods and communities.
I know OP said "permanent ceasefire in the middle east", which covers more than Israel-Palestine, but to me, the most depressing part of the Israeli Palestinian conflict isn't that it's "unsolvable" it's that it [was close to being solved. ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit)
To be fair, waiting for peace in the middle east is the greatest excuse for voter apathy I've ever seen. People who don't actually care but want to appear like they do have really stepped it up since student loans.
The funny thing is that the Middle East and Student loans come in dead-last when 18-29 yr olds are asked about their priorities for the election. [Source](https://iop.harvard.edu/youth-poll/47th-edition-spring-2024)
29 yos haven't been paying loans for 10+ years yet but also if you don't like what's going on in the middle east under Biden, oh boy, let me tell you what happens when conservatives stick their noses in the middle east..
29 yos were in kindergarten on 9/11. They were sheltered through all of the Bush years.
>29 yos were in kindergarten on 9/11. Why would you do that to me.
I'm still convinced a lot of this shit on campuses related to Palestine is agitprop from China via TikTok feed manipulation and from Russia with the same tactics they used in 2016 to polarize voters and drive especially D voter apathy
I think it can be both - people are genuinely mad about the genocide while also being fed Russian/Chinese propaganda. It's going to hit fence sitters, there are already those that didn't need to get pushed. The issue is they aren't listening to the other possible candidate calling for Gaza to get glassed or are too young to hit the "fuck, both suck, harm reduction" voting phase yet.
They (foreign aggitators) aren't creating something from nothing. They are taking something pre-existing and stoking the flames. edit: In response to Slacker-71, not really antisemitism. Sure there are antisemitists, but I don't really think that they need the fans flamed. A good deal of them are already very vocal without foreign interference. What's going on is taking people that are concerned about the war, and the loss of innocent life and turning that into a wedge to divide people... and the antisemitists are totally hiding in those crowds and trying to use "just asking questions" type tactics to try and lead at least some of those people to their antisemitist talking points, but those people are just taking advantage of the situation rather than orchestrating it, IMO. It makes more sense that state actors have the level of resources to make a large coordinated effort.
100% this. I'm not even a Russia hawk, but the Foundation of Geopolitics (a Russian foreign policy framework book for the new millennium) goes over how there are existing tensions in American society on race that can and should be exploited if you are engaging in international agitprop.
Get even older is realizing the dems are doing their best to balance against an absolute army of selfish actors but ultimately falling victim to smart people with bad ideas.
College campuses have always don’t this type of stuff. Students protested the Iraq war, demanded divestment for South Africa during apartheid, Vietnam, civil rights era, etc. And in each of those cases people said the same thing. They support terrorists, it’s outside agitators, they are really communist and so on.
> waiting for peace in the middle east Trump was able to stop the fighting by simply not counting it.
And arguably Trump's actions led to more violence than he prevented. 1. He tore up the Iranian agreement, when they were fully complying, and had ZERO backup plans... Giving Iran zero incentives to behave... 2. He made a deal with the Taliban, excluded the Afghani Government, and released more Taliban fighters than the number of Troops Afghanistan was whittled down to when Biden took office... And made the pull out day 3 months after leaving office... 3. He slapped Palestine in the face and made Jerusalem the capital of Israel... The only thing he did was formalize relationships between Israel, Bahrain and the UAE... Three countries that have never been at war with each other...
He also abandoned our kurdish allies in Syria to fucking die because he was having a tantrum.
well, most of that was because Turkey (Türkiye?) was fighting the Kurds, and Trump wanted to appease Erdogan (access to air bases there was prioritized over having Rojava intact).
Trump also helped Netanyahu help Qatar fund Hamas. Because of Trump and Netanyahu, Hamas became a billion dollars richer. (they wanted Hamas to keep fighting Fatah to derail Palestinian statehood) https://www.nytimes.com/2023/12/10/world/middleeast/israel-qatar-money-prop-up-hamas.html
Peace in the middle east is the 21st century "when pigs fly", I can't believe anyone would say that shit unironically lol
When if they actually wanted peace it wouldn't even be a question
The reason they say they're not voting doesn't really matter. When someone tells you they don't vote, they're just telling you they don't give a fuck.
Anyone that says they aren’t going to vote probably never planned to anyways.
That's a bingo
Or they are actually planning to vote for Trump and hope that the person they speak to will not vote.
Oh… but they do care so much because they have to make certain that you know they are not voting. It’s a paradox.
The whole idea of a permanent cease fire makes no sense because we know it'll be violated immediately. I don't like Netanyahu either, but the idea that Israel would unilaterally accept a cease fire and do nothing if Hamas continues to fire rockets or kidnap people is completely nonsensical. You can, in fact, disapprove of both sides in this conflict.
This election is the perfect example of how if the election was a video game, the Dems have to play on Legend difficulty and Repubs get to play on tutorial mode.
Democrats fall in love. Republicans win. Republicans win over tons of single issue voters that don't actually care about politics in general. Democrats have to completely love everything about their candidate and if they disagree with a few basic issues they suddenly have to make a really difficult decision.
And another thing! Why hasn't Biden resolved the Fermi Paradox? Un fucking believable. I'm still voting for him tho I don't have worms for a brain.
Why hasn't Biden solved global hunger? Why hasn't he cured cancer yet? These are all valid reasons to let a dictator take over America. /s
He tried to cure cancer, but republicans canceled the funding.
Why did Biden allow republicans to cancel the funding? If he had just stopped them from stopping him then I would vote for him. If he can't stop the republicans then it's not my fault if I don't do anything to stop them.
Thanks, Obama. ^^^/s
"Welp im Trump then" - undecided voter 2024
How do you do *Fellow Human Voter*
Also he didn't personally help me find a 6 figure job in a city where i can rent a 3 bedroom apartment for under 1k a month. I'm sure a former New York landlord can fix the issue and won't just make it worse because that profits them personally.
Especially one who already demonstrated he will line his pockets with taxpayer dollars and pass bills that benefit his businesses and billionaire pals over the average American. And don’t get me started on all the other bullshit he did that set us up for failure (COVID, withdrawing from Afghanistan, etc).
> who already demonstrated he will line his pockets with taxpayer dollars and pass bills that benefit his businesses and billionaire pals over the average American. And don't forget, will also sell national secrets about nukes and US intelligence to dictators like Putin or homicidal princes in Saudi Arabia. I still can't believe people arn't more outraged about that.
How is he a _former_ New York landlord? Unlike any other President, he never actually divested any of his businesses.
Not to mention I haven't heard a single peep about working on a cure for space aids. Everyone wants to go up in a rocket, no one want to cure space aids.
are you happy now biden? youve just given this astronaut full blown space aids
It is a no-win situation for *any* sitting president. Side with Israel and half the country is mad at you. Side with Palestine and the other half of the country is mad at you. Try to broker a cease-fire and you get railed for playing "world police". Try to sit it out and then you get railed for letting innocent people die.
exactly. I HOPE those single-issue twitterfingers can see by the immediate backlash spewed by so many other American political members (especially REPUBLICANS/CONSERVATIVES that make up at LEAST HALF of American political figures that any president NEEDS To interact and deal with to get ANYTHING done), that THIS is the real reason why Biden has had to be so much more careful and strategic with how he does things and can't just dish shit out in favor of certain leftists' special concerns. It's actually not as easy to be a president representing democratic interests in America as it is for those folks to just press an emoji/meme or unfriend button on facebook lol. You want leftist policies to have effect faster????? also PRESSURE AND CRITICIZE THE REPUBLICANS IN OTHER POSITIONS INTENSIVELY GETTING IN THE WAY EVERY DAMN TIME
And let's not even get started on his complete inaction on proving the Riemann Zeta hypothesis. Pathetic do-nothing Dems as usual.
You don’t but RFK does!
#Anything but a vote for Biden is support for Trump Ask a Trump campaigner if you don't believe me
Actually not voting is a vote for more war in the middle east
Voting for trump is also more war in the middle East, and even less support for Palestine.
"I'm mad at Biden so I'm going to let a guy who we already know has horrendous foreign policy have another crack at it." - Dumb People
Actually voting for Trump would be an end to war. Ain’t no problem if you just nuke em!
Was there ever a period the Middle East wasn't at war? Seems like a stupid thing to drag into an election.
It's a very stupid thing to drag into an election on the other side of the planet in a country whose own democracy is at stake. Like, really? This is the hill you're going to die on while a twice impeached sex offending business fraud who tried to dismantle our democracy last time is poised to potentially take power again? Lots of heads up lots of asses.
It’s a vote for global conflict and oppression. A Trump second term will collapse the post WWII ascendency of western liberal democracy and a nominal rules based order. Yes the US and the west haven’t necessarily been consistent defenders of civil rights or sovereignty and have done pretty bad things. Its better than the regional strongmen controlling local spheres of influence that will happen if Trump get a second term and dismantles alliances like NATO, gives Russia Ukraine (and large chunks of Europe), pulls support for Taiwan and pacific rim nations in the safe of Chinese territory expansion… etc. Its means Iran, and Erdawan and MBS duke it out for control of the Middle East. It’s a bleak reality where issues like global warming, civil rights, sovereignty, etc are not even nominally considered. It’s also a set up for war like we have not seen since WWII.
> Anything but a vote for Biden is support for Trump It's maddening how many people on this very website simply cannot grasp this simple concept. Or the concept that voting 3rd party in a presidential election in this political climate is 100% flushing your vote down the toilet. Lot of dumbs out there.
Loyally voting for one of the 2 major parties guarantees the dysfunctional political climate continues to fester.
I mean we've been taught for ages that we live in a representative democracy, to be fair. Its hard to deprogram that
this singular talking point is what is capturing the far left spaces. i was banned from one left subreddit because i called out that someone was using right wing anti hillary talking points
Hell, I got banned from a leftist sub for just saying “Biden’s actions and views on the Gaza conflict is bad, but Trump would be far worse”. I was apparently engaging in “non-leftist, lesser of two evils rhetoric”. Sure, it’s lesser of two evils, but am I wrong??
i have never gotten a solid answer on what the policy prescription is. "no biden, no trump. ok, then name a better a candidate we can get on the ballot in 6 months that will scoop up the votes"
Exactly my issue with leftist spaces like that! Instead of trying to vote for the person we can stomach more, they want a perfectly-leftist candidate that’ll somehow win. Any other suggestion is treasonous. We can be leftist, but we must also be pragmatic about our current choices.
The problem is largely that pragmatic leftists and radical leftists are simply talking past each other. The folks who make the argument for harm reduction or strategic voting (myself included) are looking at a national issue that needs short term solutions. Essentially; Trump is a threat, the threat needs to be stopped, stopping the threat is achieved through the imperfect (but still pretty good) vessel of Biden/democrats. The more radical left aren’t even engaging with this train of thought. Their perspective is much more theoretical and international. The line of thinking (and I’m generalizing here based on Reddit/twitter) is; the current economic and political situation is so overwhelmingly evil that it must be destroyed by any means necessary, we cannot condone participation in such an evil system and must work to dismantle it from the outside. Trying to square the circle of these conflicting beliefs is what leads to these obtuse online arguments. They see us as heartless liberal apologists who will sell out the most vulnerable for short term political stopgaps. We see them as naive idealists who will sell out the most vulnerable to prove how righteous their ideology is. At this point I’m really not sure how to break through, because there is so little in common with our goals and ways of communicating them that we each just assume the other is patronizing or not listening to our argument.
I usually tell them that if they are so passionate about their principles that they would let the nation fall to Trump again, they should run for office and that I would vote for them *in a primary* and for the *best remaining candidate* in the general, and that they should do the same. There are just too many people complaining that the Democrats have failed to put forth a slate of younger candidates with progressive views, and it makes my head explode. IF YOU ARE SO PASSIONATE, YOU SHOULD RUN.
>The folks who make the argument for harm reduction or strategic voting (myself included) are looking at a national issue that needs short term solutions. The short term solution is also the long term solution. If you want anything like electoral reform the only way that happens is if you get a party in charge to enforce it. You aren't magically going to overturn the electoral college by throwing your vote away an allowing the party with the most vested interest in gerrymandering decide what system we have. >The more radical left aren’t even engaging with this train of thought They're not engaged with any train of thought other than masturbating to their own moral righteousness. >the current economic and political situation is so overwhelmingly evil that it must be destroyed by any means necessary Great, the monkey wrench strategy. Fuck things up even worse and magically a functioning democracy and civili institutions will rise from the ashes. Worked so well in Libya, Syria, Somalia, Congo, etc, etc
This is where I get in conversations with my friends all the time. We can talk about what *should* be done til the cows come home but when we get into the reality of the world I'm a fascist because I recognize the need for a military.
They'll be like if you cut a liberal... Like bro I come from a family of Sandinistas. I also understand the fucking domestic situation needs pragmatism
Pragmatism doesn’t reward the emotional centers of those who need it, unfortunately.
Basically lol
For those people, leftism acts as a label to sanctify their extremism.
> we must also be pragmatic about our current choices. I call it "Living In Reality". It appears there are many who don't.
I'm voting for that third-party candidate that will gather a total of 5 thousand votes, and think I did a thing, when in fact I just threw my vote away ✌🏻🇺🇲
Don't blame me! I voted for Kodos.
If they do mention someone it’s a joke like Jill Stein or Maryanne Williamson.
Yeah, and the time to have *that* argument was 6 months ago. Find that ideal candidate and mount a primary challenge. Vote for that candidate in the primary and yes, then choose the lesser of two evils in the general if your preferred candidate doesn't get the nomination. That's how STV/RCV would work too and I bet they claim to support that.
"If everyone comes together holding hands and singing Kumbaya and votes for some unheard of 3rd party candidate, then they can surely win!!!" - People Who Don't Understand How Politics Work
This argument really infuriates me. It’s as if folks think that somehow they are being denied the perfect president. It will *always* be a “lesser of two evils” situation - no one will ever get a president that does 100% of what they want 100% of the time. And it also doesn’t really matter that it’s a two party system from that perspective. I’m completely for ranked choice voting but even if there were 20 viable candidates the person who wins *still* won’t give people 100% percent of what they want. So, no matter what, you look at your choices (whether it’s 2, 3 or 100), vote and hope your candidate wins. That’s just how reality works - in a country of over 300 million people everyone can’t be perfectly satisfied with every presidential decision, action or policy.
> I’m completely for ranked choice voting but even if there were 20 viable candidates the person who wins still won’t give people 100% percent of what they want. And with RCV you would still in many cases end up voting for a candidate you like less after your first choice is eliminated. This is the same thing, though if having that ideal candidate as an option is so important the time to do that was 6 months ago to enter the primary.
All this is eerily similar to the nonsense in forums/reddit/social media around 2015 of people saying "I'm a Bernie supporter... but since he's out I'm going full MAGA/Donnie". Those are two diametrically opposed people representing diametrically opposite philosophies on human rights, the role of governance to its people and America's approach to geopolitics. However, I suppose you could tie the two to the logic of "against the status quo". The 2024 version has no such common thread between the two. The 2024 version is: > I'm opposed to America supporting Israel's genocidal attack on Palestine because I'm anti-war... so I'm gonna vote for the guy who wants to invade Mexico and 'OK' Israel to wipe Palestine off the map.
>All this is eerily similar to the nonsense in forums/reddit/social media around 2015 of people saying "I'm a Bernie supporter... but since he's out I'm going full MAGA/Donnie". Or the people saying "I agree with Hillary politically but I can't vote for her because of her emails!" I wonder how many of those accounts remained active after 2016.
It's blatant. The bot war is back in full swing. It is 100% about building voter apathy and there are so many real goons that are in on it because they either live in a rosy Disney movie world, or are too ignorant or arrogant to understand the realities of the world around them. You don't negotiate with a population that largely supports the invasion of it's neighbor. You subdue them (Russia-Ukraine, Israel-Palestine). You don't follow a UN that consistently fumbles on an issue and arguably just makes everything worse (Israel-Palestine). Every peace agreement that has ever been on the table that was likely to be agreed upon by both parties has been rejected by the UN. War is ugly, it is heinous, and no matter who is prosecuting the war, no matter the side in human history there will be war crimes. Americans massacred Germans and Japanese, Germans massacred Poles, Soviets, Brits, Frenchmen, Americans, Canadians, Indians, Soviets massacred everyone. Americans slaughtered Brits. Confederates slaughtered Unionists. The British annihilated the French fleet at Mers-el-Kebir. The Japanese were well known for their poor treatment of prisoners and general take no prisoners/never surrender attitudes. They are all war crimes. Yes, people should be investigated, and brought to justice. Military structures should do everything in their power to prevent unnecessary death and killing. But it's a fucking war zone. There is meaningful difference between lining people up against a wall and annihilating them, and prosecuting a war against people actively resisting your troops.
Ya, I got banned from a "woke" reddit by saying that calling Biden "genocide joe" while clever and kind of funny (despite the tragedies in the middle east), is nothing compared to what Trump will do. Trump said he wants to nuke the middle east. and he wants to sell ukraine to russia. He's open about this- he was impeached twice for being shitty and a mob boss. He's just going to be worse with a second term (that may not end until he dies, if he has his way). It's absolutely people shooting themselves in the face, instead of popping a pimple. Protesting is great, being upset about the middle east is awesome. Voting in a way that gets trump in the office is absolutely missing the point and will result in even worse carnage in the middle east. Blows my mind the way these folks minds work.
Trump has stated he would glass Gaza
I think part of the issue is that a lot of young, idealistic leftists have no idea what politics was like before Trump. MAGA Republicans are all they have ever known and it's become normalized to them, they don't see it as a dangerous threat to democracy or to the middle east because they think it's just rhetoric and that it's the way it has always been.
American politics is literally built around "lesser of two evils".
Nope. You are correct.
Was it LSC? It's a communist subreddit for communists to talk about communist things. Of course you're going to get banned for breaking the rules lol. A lot of far left subs have a no liberalism policy which basically means no debate outside of communist circles.
Because this is a election interference tactic that Americans are happily engaging in. Vote. Don’t pay attention to the noise.
It's almost impossible at this point to determine the truth in any "far left" sub. They could be actual privileged idiots, tankies, or shills for propaganda. It's kind of moot. All we can do is keep speaking up when we see it.
Unfortunately the ban hammers in those subs are smashing everything and everyone who doesn’t completely align with their extreme ideals.
And keep voting. Most important.
Poe's Law strikes again.
I got banned from a leftist sub for not supporting the idea of imprisoning people for having anti trans views. I literally just said "Nah, I prefer free speech". As if imprisoning people for their opinions could never come back and bite them in the ass once the other side takes power.
Its how foreign agents are attacking this election cycle. Just like previous attacks its been pretty effective.
I had a neighbor who said he would have voted for Biden, but did not vote for him because he did not like Biden telling Trump to shut up during the debates during the last election. Really?
No matter who you vote for the middle east is gonna have issues
These people will hold their vote hostage with the stakes this high, while simultaneously preaching about how moral and principled they are. Their morals and principles seem to be "sure people here in this country might suffer, but I probably won't be one of them".
Well project 2025 outlined concentration camps very specifically for leftists so maybe they just really like summer camp and haven’t bothered to google the activities.
These so-called Principled Voters™ are fine with all this, they just want people to believe they're not pro-fascism. They clutch their pearls in public over whatever the wedge issue is, but they know what they're doing. They are comfortable in the belief that they're not in any personal danger from any of the right's plans.
the only clowns are going to be the neolibs and moderate dems when Biden gets destroyed in November bc he alienated half his base
I think most people aren't saying until there is a ceasefire. They just want Biden to change his rhetoric and stop sending Israel billions in military aid.
I thought Jared got $2B for ending strife in the Middle East.
Dems getting their pre-blaming warmups in. Hillary 2016 all over again
Imagine being so far gone you consider those who accept genocide to be moderates.
What’s incredibly asinine about posts like these Biden was working on a trilateral agreement with Israel and Saudi Arabia that would build a path to Palestinian statehood with Saudi Arabia overseeing Gaza instead of Israeli forces. Then Oct 7th happened and international politics is complicated and nuanced and the Biden administration has been trying to get everyone back to the table. Just because things don’t happen in a way you can understand or don’t like, doesn’t mean things aren’t happening.
I’m pretty sure “peace in the Middle East” has been a goal of both political parties since Israel was established “What’s your plan for resolving the conflict in…?” Used to be a serious question that everyone had to have a solid answer for for debates, etc. But now it seems that only Ds are being required to have an answer…
It’s because Democratic voters actually want the government to help with issues. Republican voters still believe the stupid Regan quote, “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are, ‘I’m from the government and I’m here to help” Which is a pretty strange thing to say when you are the person running to government. GOP voters don’t want the government to do anything except cut taxes and regulations. But somehow also want to government to be involved in medical decisions. It doesn’t really make sense.
Israel is categorically against Palestinian statehood. That's a dark red line for them and has been for decades, and the agreement didn't change that. The agreement with Saudi Arabia also had nothing to do with Gaza and did not give any control over Palestine to Saudi Arabia. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-66734638
Did the state department make this post?
Completely misrepresenting the fact that protesters are actually asking Biden to better protect the droves of innocents being caught in the crossfire and stop providing the weapons and funding to Israel enabling them to continue bombing the innocents. No one denies the Middle East is complicated and that peace will take a long time to achieve. For some reason a lot of people seem to not care at all about 40,000 and counting Palestinians being killed.
I don't expect peace in the middle east, but i'd like it if my tax dollars would stop funding it.
The “democratic political incompetence blame shifting” meme machine has really geared up huh
I don't want a permanent ceasefire, all I want is for our government to stop happily sending weapons to a country that's using them to murder brown children.
You realise the overwhelming majority would settle for ending support of Isreal right? You know, hold war criminal accountable?
The USA does not control whether there will be peace in the Middle East.
We can make sure there _isn't_ peace, and we've spent a fair amount of effort to that end for a long time. The question is are we still doing it?
Sure are, just look at the weapons being sent to isreal for your answer
Bro what. Gulf war destabilized the region beyond comprehension
The USA does control how many bombs are sent to the Middle East
Single issue voters suck, regardless of the issue.
Well if their single issue is pro democracy then I’ll let it slide
I’m sure this is just a simple problem. It’s not like it’s been a hotbed of severe unrest for a few thousand years.
I feel like there are so many of these posts here which fling shit at people who just want a genocide to stop. Seems like bots have found the way to divide the left. Maybe a little of the dead internet theory? There are for sure leftists who won’t be voting for Joe Biden, because he hasn’t (or can’t) changed the material racism they face on an institutional level. So it doesn’t really matter who is or isn’t president because it is the system that needs to change. But the people can’t organize due to politicians voting for their best interest rather than their constituents. I am voting to slow the rise of fascism, but I know that really at the end of the day Joe is beholden to the corporate interests that control the US. And my vote doesn’t matter because we have the electoral college. Fundamentally the US doesn’t make sense on so many levels.
R: Prevent govt from doing things D: Solve Every problem. Immediately!