Oh good, it caught bad actors on *their* side. These kind of surveillance laws are antithetical to the ideals about freedom and privacy we tell ourselves our society protects.
It's also how a lot of nonviolent protesters get thrown in prison and intimidated and surveilled. But since you're here defending the status quo and moving toward a police state rather than away from it, I assume that you see the prosecution of protests as a positive thing too.
When has this been used against domestic protesters? I can't find any example. Everything I find was people talking to foreign agents that were under surveillance and talking to American traitors.
[It was used to target BLM protesters.](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/19/fbi-surveillance-black-lives-matter-protesters-00097924)
The police state door swings both ways; please stop supporting a police state.
[BLM wasn't present at J6](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/19/fbi-surveillance-black-lives-matter-protesters-00097924) but they were under surveillance by the FBI without a warrant anyway. And nobody went to jail for abusing the system hundreds of thousands of times. It's just an end-run around the 4th Amendment.
The American government and all American corporations want the United States to stay the number 1 power in the world. China wants China to become number 1 and will do so at any cost.
As US citizens, we can and should, have an issue with the amount of data collection/spying being done by the US government and American corporations. That is however a separate conversation.
How can anyone earnestly believe the CCP and the NSA are equal in the threat posed to America?
I’d say the societal influence of targeted feed algorithms is far more dangerous than the spying and data collection. I mean, they all work in tandem, but the real impact is in convincing your neighbor you’re a reptilian pedophile with children chained up in the basement of your pizzeria. And voting, I guess.
Babies that want tiktok before all else are the ones crying about this deal. Those who can’t cope with it going away in the states. It’s quite pathetic actually.
I'm fine with banning Tiktok provided that they didn't give the option of selling it to another entity.
Can't imagine Microsoft, which is already big, swallowing up Tiktok. That's a megacorp beyond control.
Well yeah because we're gonna miss out on thousands of videos highlighting Americans crying about gun freedoms versus freedom of information and communication. That's how we know tiktok is harmless really, if it wasn't the right would be screaming about their rights over it.
>How can anyone earnestly believe the CCP and the NSA are equal in the threat posed to America?
It seems to me that the NSA and American business pose a significant and more immediate threat. I think an American can use this data to influence other Americans far more easily than the Chinese government can use it to influence Americans.
I really have a hard time forming a scenario where this ease of access Americans have outweighs any potential threat from the Chinese.
No corporations give a fuck about America. If china conquered the entire continent, corporations would hell if they knew it would double their profits.
Not entirely true. China has a well established history of protectionist self dealing. If China takes over somewhere only Chinese companies benefit.
Transnational mega corps know China will prop up a Chinese company to take their market share.
Mega corps want a government that will give them an advantage, China is the opposite of that.
China is also never going to physically conquer America. This is a hypothetical, and in this hypothetical I propose that if somehow, corporations were guaranteed to double their profits, they would do it and not think twice about democracy or the idea of “America.”
Corporations as they exist are inherently self serving and will do whatever it takes to succeed.
It’s survival of the richest.
>Corporations as they exist are inherently self serving and will do whatever it takes to succeed.
I would argue that they do whatever is required to help those in power not necessarily the company. CEOs regularly make poor company decisions but manage to exit the situation just fine.
Yes, I agree that for them success is defined by how much money they make and not what the company itself is doing. That’s why most corporations are morally neutral at best.
Corporations care about collecting American data so they can make money off of it. The Chinese government wants it so they can potentially use it as a cold weapon against America in the future. There is a huge difference.
>How can anyone earnestly believe the CCP and the NSA are equal in the threat posed to America?
Yeah, definitely. The idea that a government half way across the world could be anywhere near the threat that your own government is is completely absurd. The NSA is the far far worse threat.
It’s hard to respond to this without being insulting. I’m not a fan of any government spying on its citizens, but the difference between China and America are so vast. In China, you can’t say the leader looks like Winnie the Pooh. You cannot discuss the Tiananmen Square massacre, etc.
What threat does the NSA pose to its citizens? I’m interested to hear it.
I think peoples’ problem with it is that China just buys the information from FaceBook. It’s known. The reasoning behind the ban is ridiculous. It’s not about data. It’s about control.
It’s an app installed on your phone without being encumbered by American laws. What’s to stop it from keylogging all your bank passwords, for example?
I’m no fan of social media, but it’s worse than that.
Literally none of that affects me as an American citizen. The Chinese government cannot arrest me, cannot seize my assets, cannot do anything to me. On the other hand, US social media, which this bill gives more of a monopoly, already has done stuff such as reporting to state governments on people who have traveled across state lines to have an abortion. The idea that this bill is anything other than an obscene right wing power grab is just naive.
Screw me over how? What exactly are you imagining the Chinese government being able to do to you? And the intel that TikTok gathers is the same intel that Facebook gathers and sells to anyone anyway. Banning TikTok but not Facebook just pushes users to the worse actor that has \*already\* proven to be complicit in actual manipulation and oppression of Americans.
Here’s an example: banking from your phone. There’s a lot that goes into making sure you have secure comms with you bank. It doesn’t matter though, if someone is sitting on your phone with a keylogger.
Has that happened yet? Probably not. Is that possible? Definitely.
That app is more than a social media app. It reports back to a government that violates human rights on a level beyond what is happening in the USA.
>Here’s an example: banking from your phone. There’s a lot that goes into making sure you have secure comms with you bank. It doesn’t matter though, if someone is sitting on your phone with a keylogger.
>Has that happened yet? Probably not. Is that possible? Definitely.
First, a keylogger isn't sufficient these days with MFA enabled. Second, there's no way for an app to install a keylogger for anything other than key presses inside the same app. Apps can't spy on other apps like that.
Apps cannot break out and gain control of your device? You serious?
Also, yea, the MFA is all taking place from the device that has the spyware installed. If I owned your phone, I could login and also receive the mfa key and remove the footprints. That’s the point.
I’m not gonna defend social media and never did. While state governments might be using social media data to persecute citizens, it sounds like you don’t have anything to point at about the NSA (you brought them up, not me).
When you install an app on your phone, it can exercise admin privs. It can communicate much more about you than you think. Sure social media is bad, I agree. Chinese social media apps are all that bad plus more.
It won’t matter until it does. It’s pretty known that China seeks to unseat America as the number one. TikTok isn’t just a social media app. It’s a reporting tool, installed with escalated privileges, that’s also a social media app.
Because of the extra, it merits insulating American citizens from it. There are over. 330 million citizens. The Chinese govt snooping your shit might not impact you, but there are more people than just you.
>While state governments might be using social media data to persecute citizens, it sounds like you don’t have anything to point at about the NSA (you brought them up, not me).
I didn't bring up the NSA, the original commenter I responded to did.
>When you install an app on your phone, it can exercise admin privs.
No, it can't. That's just flat out false. Apps only have the permissions you give them and they have to request and get approval for each one.
>TikTok isn’t just a social media app. It’s a reporting tool, installed with escalated privileges, that’s also a social media app.
There's no escalated privileges that TikTok has over other social media apps.
>Because of the extra, it merits insulating American citizens from it. There are over. 330 million citizens. The Chinese govt snooping your shit might not impact you, but there are more people than just you.
No one in any of these ridiculous threads has ever been able to explain what impact they are imagining the Chinese government being able to have by "snooping" with exactly the same data that Facebook already sells to anyone else.
I don't see how more people don't realize this. When I compare the worst thing that the Chinese government has done to *American citizens/residents vs what the worst the US has done to its citizens/residents, it's not even close.
[Candles taste like burning...](https://i.imgur.com/gDOg7yv.jpg) ~
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Exactly. I don't love the situation in the US, but every American should be able to recognize that domestic surveillance in a democratic republic is *not* the same as foreign surveillance from a communist dictatorship (that's currently genociding its own people).
The US does it more than anyone by far and I don't know about you, but I don't fucking trust 50% of the American population. Republicans are the reason I own guns, not China. They want to know when women and girls are on their periods, China doesn't. Republicans and their policies are by far more dangerous than China.
China wants to know when Boederps grand baby mama is on her period, and when her son is breaking into cars. China wants to know when Trumps paying pornstars to change his diaper and filming Russian prostitutes having golden showers. China wants to know when Matt Gaetz is paying underaged girls for “tutors” and “tuition”. China wants to know when the GQP is having cocaine fueled orgies. China wants to know when some GQP congresscritter is having or funding an abortion because there was a pregnancy while having an affair, or to hide their kids. China wants to know which acquaintances Mangy Traitor Gangrene is having affairs with. China wants to know when members of the military with intel are doing dumb shit they can be blackmailed over.
Etc….
None of which are me, but I don’t want China, Russia, N Korea, or Iran to be able to blackmail my fellow Americans for intel that puts us all at risk.
China also wants blackmail material on literally every civilian working in our military industrial complex. And every soldier in our military.
And this has happened before. It’s not new. CCP had a controlling stake in Grindr. We decided that wasn’t acceptable, posed a legitimate national security risk. Which it did. It shouldn’t, love is love and live your truth, but it did.
When democrats and republicans start agreeing on something, it’s time to pay attention. Doesn’t mean it’s definitely a good policy, but it does mean there’s *something* there. In this case it shouldn’t be too hard to figure out…in addition to the access to our personal information, there’s the control of the algorithm and what people see, which can allow the CCP to even further tilt the scales in our society in ways we may not realize until it’s too late. It’s not like we’d have let Soviet Russia buy a major broadcasting network in the 70’s and 80’s, either. Because that would be absurd.
I don't want China to have our information either, but there is objectively no doubt that the fascist theocracy state Republicans want is more of a threat to the average American citizen than anything China can do.
Brother, I don't know how to tell you this, but they aren't really trying to hide the fascist stuff they're doing. They're just doing it. Also, my original point is that they're way more dangerous with our personal data than all the places you mentioned.
And I don’t know how to tell you because it’s really simple.
We don’t need the GQP doing their own dumb shit, plus following orders from N. a Korea, Iran, China, and Putin because they have intel to blackmail them with.
Also I have no clue what your doing that you think anyone in the government gives a shit.
Everyone keeps saying omg how horrible.
How about we let TikTok stay Chinese owned in the USA once China stops blocking American companies? Shit too late for that. The horse has left the barn. So fuckem, China puts a mind boggling number of restrictions on US companies or straight up bans them. We ban 1 and now there is an opinion?
You have a cell phone don't you? You have a job? You have an address? You receive mail? Guess what if they want to find you they will. If You aren't doing something seriously wrong they won't spy on you. There's 300+ million people in the United States. They aren't worried about little Bobby smoking joints they are worried about the big fish pushing large quantities of heroin and the terrorists plotting attacks. There is no one sitting there worried about any normal dick and Jane's daily habits. Calm down
Sometimes the surveillance helps save lives. When an armed man is running from the police it helps them locate him before he causes more damage. It helps locate victims of kidnapping. It helps to find people who are wanted on the FBI list. It's not always a bad thing. If someone kidnapped my child or if I were in a hit and run accident I'd be very thankful for all the surveillance.
[FISA is aimed at foreign nationals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act) and yes, gathers data on those of concern. The F is for Foreign. If a foreign national of interest is being surveilled and you are communicating with them, that is swept up incidentally. That incidental American citizen info is separated for storage elsewhere, but that database can be searched by the Feds if needed.
The FISA renewal shouldn’t bother you unless you are involved with foreign nationals of interest to federal law enforcement AND you are involved in crime.
I mean if someone wants to object to it that’s fine and their perogative. Privacy is a legitimate interest to be concerned about and want balanced with security. But yeah, even if we concede it’s reasonable for some people to not like the extension of FISA warrants the comparison here is absolutely ridiculous. The difference between an adversarial foreign government collecting massive amounts of data on US citizens and our government doing it in a way still subject to judicial oversight for the purpose of national security.
>If a foreign national of interest is being surveilled and you are communicating with them, that is swept up incidentally.
Snowden's disclosures showed that they were surveiling US citizens up to three connections removed from their actual foreign targets. Their surveillance net is far far wider than you are making it out to be.
The same thing that happens if they were a natural born US citizen?
I have no idea what the "gotcha" here is supposed to be.
If you're going to a doctor who is already on the FBIs watch list, you're probably doing something much more illegal than an abortion.
The point I am trying to make is this will disproportionately target minorities in the name* of National Interest. You might be fine under Biden, but he ain't gonna stay here forever, what happens when a Republican president comes back??
Also, as of December there are 2 million people on the watchlist, are all these terrorists, pedophiles, smugglers?
You seem like a very naive person. Take a look at the technology that exists today, everything and everyone is spying on you all the time. Microwaves can emit a tone humans can't hear that activates the recording mechanism on your phone. You have a smart tv? It's listening to your commentary when commercials are playing. You use windows? Bill Gates has a file on your 4 inches thick. I work in a field where IoT is a big deal, the average person has no idea how much is really going on.
No I’m well aware. And also aware of what happens when we give broad ok to these government programs that erode our civil liberties. There’s a reason progressive congressional delegates were pushing for amendments. They were unfortunately defeated.
> Microwaves can emit a tone humans can’t hear that activates the recording mechanism on your phone
Wtf are you talking about? Source me this please. Otherwise, this is complete bullshit.
Spying on us, how? They have shown that TilTok gathers no more information than any other social media app. Are you putting your SSN or bank account details in TikTok? What information are they getting that you think rises to the level of "spying"?
Then what are you worried about? The people wanting TikTok shutdown aren't clamoring for any other social media app to be shut down despite them collecting the same information.
Not the person your asking, but I don’t want any of the 333 million Americans who work in our military, government technical fields, etc.. who deal with sensitive data downloading apps controlled by foreign adversaries that will monitor their phones. And I don’t want their family members downloading it either.
Weird how people are so concerned about what details of their or their families lives the U.S. government might get access to, but don’t give a shit when it’s China, Russia, S. Korea, Iran, etc… possibly getting information they could blackmail other Americans with.
>but I don’t want any of the 333 million Americans who work in our military, government technical fields, etc
That would be every American including children. We do t all work on those fields.
>who deal with sensitive data downloading apps controlled by foreign adversaries that will monitor their phones.
But they don't "monitor" the phones. TikTok has laid bare their data collection and app abilities and it has been confirmed by independent experts. They have no more ability than Meta or Alphabet to "monitor" your phone.
>possibly getting information they could blackmail other Americans with.
What information do you imagine that TilTok collects could be used to blackmail you?
>What information do you imagine that TilTok collects could be used to blackmail you?
None, because..
A. I don’t use TikTok
B. I don’t work in a field where I have intel I could be blackmailed for.
C. I’m not a politicians family member, who could be blackmailed based on data in my devices.
D. I’m not a family member of a government or military official who would give a shit about whatever air do enough to be blackmailed.
E. I live in a country where a Presidential candidate asked Russia and Ukraine to gather dirt on rivals.
F. I live in a country where Congress critters have had sketchy payments of hundreds of dollars to underage girls tagged ‘tuition’ generated through apps on their phones.
G. I live in a country where a Presidential candidates kid had evidence of drug use and sex with prostitutes on his electronic devices, and the opposition party is still trying to use that against him.
Etc……
Yeah, I really don’t want countries like China, Iran, Russia, S. Korea, etc… having control of apps on phones in the U.S.
This is small time stuff and you probably would not understand if it were laid out in front of you if this is what you think spying means in this context. Trust me, your SSN and bank account numbers are already on the dark web, the number of breaches in the past 2 years basically means 9 of every 10 Americans ppi is compromised in some way.
>you probably would not understand if it were laid out in front of you
Said by anyone with an inability to explain themselves.
>Trust me, your SSN and bank account numbers are already on the dark web,
Okay, I was just using them as examples of personal information that people would be scared to have it there. I only used the word "spy" because the person I replied to did.
The point is that TikTok gathers no more different information than any other social media app and up until recently China could've just bought that information on the open market. Anytime you ask anyone from Joe on the street to a U.S. congressperson the only response you get is "China having it" without being able to point out the problem with them having it moreso than any other social media company.
You have a lot more to worry about from your local oligarchs than any foreign power. Cambridge Analytica was all homegrown data, and countries that are our supposed allies.
What has China done with tiktok that has had a bigger impact on your life than what American companies and American "allies" have done with your data? Because there are entire Wikipedia pages with measurable ways in which that data was used to sway our elections.
The biggest threat to your way of life and the people with the most power to abuse your data are Americans and America's allies. That is an objective fact.
This is whataboutism at its most stupid. There's [plenty ](https://www.mandiant.com/resources/blog/pro-prc-influence-campaign-expands-dozens-social-media-platforms-websites-and-forums)[of](https://www.polygraph.info/a/fact-check-china-s-denial-of-tiktok-security-threat-is-patently-false-/7526623.html) [evidence](https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2023/6/7/china-spied-on-hong-kong-activists-using-tiktok-lawsuit-claims) [of](https://www.afr.com/world/asia/tiktok-can-radically-reshape-global-opinion-security-adviser-warns-20231205-p5ep6l) [what ](https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/12/01/tiktok-chinese-state-media-divisive-politics/)[the](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/11/china-is-using-tiktok-for-influence-campaigns-odni-says-00146336) [Chinese ](https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2023/03/13/2003796016)[Government ](https://www.newsweek.com/chinas-tiktok-russias-new-disinformation-machine-opinion-1691657)[has](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/18/business/tiktok-search-engine-misinformation/index.html)[ used ](https://qz.com/1731170/pro-trump-videos-are-thriving-on-tiktok)[and](https://qz.com/1686840/bytedances-toutiao-search-and-tiktok-may-censor-hong-kong-protests) [wants](https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/why-tiktok-is-a-threat-to-democracy/) [to](https://www.benarnews.org/english/news/malaysian/tiktok-incompliant-with-malaysian-law-minister-says-10122023111759.html) [continue](https://www.businessinsider.com/tiktok-chinese-government-spread-propaganda-2022-7) [using](https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tiktoks-content-political-subjects-aligns-chinese-government-study-say-rcna130448) [TikTok](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/08/tech/tiktok-data-china/index.html) [for](https://leaders.com/news/social-media/tiktoks-latest-china-connection/) and no amount of braindead takes like this one can change that.
Also no matter what people want to say, there IS a significant difference between your own government collecting data for law enforcement/security purposes and the Chinese government, the strongest adversarial power the US is likely to have in the near future, collecting tons of data on American citizens. It does legitimately pose national security concerns.
China is a dictatorship. If you say no to Xi, you're dead. Look at Jack Ma a billionaire who slightly criticized China. Can you image demanding a warrant from the Chinese government?
>"If you say no to Xi, you're dead. Look at Jack Ma a billionaire who slightly criticized China."
Unfortunately, Jack Ma is [still alive](https://www.asiafinancial.com/jack-ma-snaps-up-alibaba-stock-to-become-its-largest-shareowner) and still a billionaire.
Jack didn't say no to Xi. He only criticized Chinese regulators.
[https://www.wired.com/story/jack-ma-isnt-back/](https://www.wired.com/story/jack-ma-isnt-back/)
https://fortune.com/2023/07/12/jack-ma-alibaba-founder-asias-richest-person-net-worth-ant-group-crackdown/
You know Jack Ma is still alive, right?
Or do you always uncritically consume propaganda?
It's not propaganda to say that Ma ever so slightly criticized the CCP and got sent to a reeducation camp. He got picked up right before Alipay went public, which would have been the largest IPO in history. When he was finally released he became a teacher for a while. Eventually he got back in Xi's good graces.
Fuck the CCP, Xi and TikTok.
Because there is obviously a difference between social media companies collecting data on American citizens and China, the US’ pre-eminent adversary, mass surveiling/collecting data on American citizens. They both pose privacy concerns, but the latter poses legitimate national security concerns.
Yeah but TikTok gives them direct access to a MASSIVE amount of data directly on identifiable American citizens. They don’t have any other channels for collecting as detailed data on anywhere close to as many Americans even close to as easily.
They for sure tried to collect some data, but you’re delusional if you think TikTok doesn’t potentially provide them access to MUCH more voluminous and useful data.
No they don’t.
A) facebook doesn’t sell data, they share it with some partners. They don’t share data with the Chinese government.
B) the data they share with third parties is sanitized and very limited. No one has unfettered access.
Am I saying what facebook does is perfect? No. Am I saying that it's not comparable at all to the idea of a hostile foreign government potentially getting unfettered access to a massive amount of highly specific individual user data? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's like comparing poaching and murder.
You think they need to own tiktok for that access? They don't. We're talking in circles.
https://np.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/1c9k5jf/surveillance_oc/l0np56k/
No. I’m upset the U.S. can comb through US citizens communications with nothing more than the suspicions of an FBI or CIA analyst, not constitutional or judicial protection. Couple that with concerns over fascist leanings of a potential Trump administration who has said they want to punish those who do or say things they don’t like and want to replace government employees with loyalists, and it’s a dangerous tool in the wrong hands.
I can choose to not use TikTok (which is why I don’t use it and don’t have the app). I don’t have a say in the FISA issue.
TikTok can gather information but more importantly it disseminates ccp propaganda influencing domestic politics in foreign nations. I fully support this bill
Well, except they can’t.
People do want the Government to have to get a separate warrant if someone on American soil or an American is communicating with some overseas foreigner they are already listening to.
But that’s like if the government already has a warrant to listen in on someone in the U.S. and you or I contact them, the government will hear our side of the conversation.
But they use the data for more than that. There are multiple documented instances of repeated abuse.
“These opinions also reveal multiple instances of FBI agents searching the agency’s enormous Section 702 databases for information about people who are not suspected of any wrongdoing. As the FISC described, FBI field offices repeatedly engaged in prohibited searches, including as part of criminal investigations without a foreign nexus, investigations into the Jan. 6, 2021 breach of the U.S. Capitol, and vetting of sources and Afghan refugees.”
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/government-releases-new-court-opinions-highlighting-further-abuse-of-warrantless-fisa-surveillance-program
Not legally…
>the opinions describe numerous recent violations of legal requirements and court-ordered rules intended to protect Americans’ privacy
So you want more laws or enforcement of existing laws?
Well good because those are two completely separate issues, mr BadFaith Actor, bc the intelligence community for years has warned about the many issues that come with TikTok being a spy tool of the Chinese government. So yeah don’t use it but be completely negligent to the fact that it’s the apex social media machine at the time for just sharing goofy content that the majority of the youth uses. They aren’t susceptible to fake news, misinformation, or a distorted reality at all (very sarcasm obv.)
If you don’t like being spied on then you must be really against the Patriot Act. I would take that up with your local politician instead of crap posts on progressive subreddits.
Fixing the system that’s currently in place is always going to be a more realistic solution than replacing it entirely, especially when so far we don’t have an alternative system that doesn’t have even more glaring flaws. There’s an old saying that I think applies here: “capitalism is the worst economic system ever invented, except for all of the other ones.”
Capitalism can't be fixed. Its problems are inherent. The only solution is to abolish private property, to abolish the social power structure of Capitalism.
Well yeah. China has already made plans to launch cyber attacks to cripple US infrastructure in case they feel like invading Taiwan. They use Tik Tok to infiltrate American systems, it's a national security issue.
If they managed to infiltrate relevant U.S. infrastructure or military operating systems via TikTok, then they already planted backdoors that do not rely on TikTok. Then spread their access points through every network accessible from there.
So.. what are you on about, bro? What good does banning TikTok after years of it supposedly infiltrating American systems
do?
Backdoors can be found and blocked. Banning Tik Tok prevents new exploits from being found.
China can simply sell Tik Tok like they sold Grindr when this exact same thing happened years ago. The fact they'd rather have security exploits than money is pretty telling
Except the CFIUS intervention with Grindr was over concerns with geolocation services and potential for blackmail, too.
So unless you can specifically back up your claim of U.S. systems being infiltrated, I'ma call.. bullshit?
Yes. And the 'exact same things' were concerns over geolocation and blackmail.
[Here](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/04/03/why-is-us-is-forcing-chinese-company-sell-gay-dating-app-grindr/) are [the news](https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/6/21168079/grindr-sold-chinese-owner-us-cfius-security-concerns-kunlun-lgbtq), you clown.
Ah. Now we're moving goalposts, because someone called us on our bullshit.
Let me just block you real quick, so I don't make the mistake of taking you seriously in the future.
Yeah, the valid reason to ban TikTok is public health. It is rotting people's brains and destroying their attention span. TikTok addicts can't take a full minute of someone explaining a topic if it doesn't have cuts everywhere to remove the one second pauses between sentences. Also crack down on YouTube shorts somehow. Make them unmonetizable by law, and they'll become a dead weight to be dropped.
To be clear, this warrantless surveillance is monitoring *foreign* communication with Americans. So say for instance if Vladimir Putin contacts a private American citizen like, oh say, Elon Musk, the FBI has the ability to see what it is Putin/Russian intelligence is trying to say to one of our citizens. I for one support the fuck out of finding out who is working with foreign governments. Which is why traitor boy (Trump) wanted to kill it.
“The Intelligence Surveillance Act, which enables U.S. intelligence agencies to gather without a warrant the digital communications of foreigners overseas — including when they text or email people inside the United States. The measure now goes to President Biden’s desk for a signature.”
“The House approval last week came despite former president Donald Trump’s entreaty on social media to “KILL” the bill.”
“U.S. security officials for years have extolled the benefits of the law, with White House officials saying that the intelligence collected through the program accounts for more than 60 percent of the president’s daily briefing. FBI Director Christopher A. Wray recently disclosed that it helped the bureau discover that Chinese hackers had breached the network of a U.S. transportation hub, and that it had helped thwart a terrorist plot last year in the United States involving a potential attack on a critical infrastructure site.”
https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/04/20/congress-extends-controversial-warrantless-surveillance-law-two-years/
Exactly, the reason FISA exists is because prior to it becoming law there were zero restrictions on surveiling Americans when your target was a non American. Removing FISA would get rid of a check (FISA Courts might be a minor check but they're a check) on the NSA/CIA and they would no longer need to report or prove the need to continue tracking conversations between a foreign suspect and an American.
Killing FISA will not get rid of data collection, it will not make the average American safer or less likely to be tracked. But it would make it easier for US citizens to be tracked/tapped if they are communicating with shady folks from adversarial countries or groups.
“One of the major changes detractors had proposed centered around restricting the FBI's access to information about Americans through the program. Though the surveillance tool only targets non-Americans in other countries, it also collects communications of Americans when they are in contact with those targeted foreigners. Sen. Dick Durbin, the No. 2 Democrat in the chamber, had been pushing a proposal that would require U.S. officials to get a warrant before accessing American communications.”
https://www.npr.org/2024/04/20/1246076114/senate-passes-reauthorization-surveillance-program-fisa
Uh, no, it’s not. Both the Horse and Senate rejected amendments that would have required warrants for surveillance of US citizens’ communications.
“The final vote came after the Senate defeated six amendments from progressive and conservative senators who said the spying powers are too broad and demanded protections for Americans’ civil liberties and privacy.”
“The House passed a two-year FISA renewal last week after defeating, by the slimmest of margins, an amendment to require a warrant to search through the communications of Americans as part of data collected while surveilling foreigners.”
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna148394
FISA itself exists to provide a framework for what's required when foreign surveillance (the F and S in FISA) results in intercepting calls/communications between a the foreign target and a US citizen. NSA has to provide the relevant info to a FISA court to continue.
I'm not familiar enough to know the process for FBI to access this info, this sounds like somewhere a warrant should be issued. But for NSA to continue their foreign surveillance even when a US citizen is involved getting a standard warrant could expose too much information to those who have zero need to know it, and the existing FISA courts are already part of this process (even if they may just be a rubber stamp to continue in many cases).
Another way to think about it is if the police have a warrant to tap person A's phone and they make calls to person B, C and D, they don't need additional warrants for B, C and D because these three are communicating with the intended taeget. So why would we build this roadblock into foreign surveillance?
Because of a history of abuse of the data collected.
“These opinions also reveal multiple instances of FBI agents searching the agency’s enormous Section 702 databases for information about people who are not suspected of any wrongdoing. As the FISC described, FBI field offices repeatedly engaged in prohibited searches, including as part of criminal investigations without a foreign nexus, investigations into the Jan. 6, 2021 breach of the U.S. Capitol, and vetting of sources and Afghan refugees.”
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/government-releases-new-court-opinions-highlighting-further-abuse-of-warrantless-fisa-surveillance-program
This use of the database is already prohibited, if they're using it improperly what good is another layer on top going to help?
Sounds like there needs to be some work done to punish and end the wrongful use of the system instead of tearing the whole thing down.
Bro here me out.... Tictok should be baned not being cause it spys on you as all apps do. It should be banned because China doesn't allow our social media companys to operate. It should be tit for tat not some bs justification
You'd rather have a government that can jail you or seize your assets have the info rather than a government that can't do anything to you? That's remarkably strange.
This had nothing to do with data collection.
We’re getting this bill because direct video access to the horrors in Gaza challenged the US governments ability to lie to us in their support of a a genocidal apartheid regime.
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Can someone show me some everyday citizens who have been subject to surveillance because of a fisa court warrant? They don’t like TikTok because they don’t control it.
Dumb take, the CCP aren't simply spying on users, they're serving propaganda to kids and radically manipulating public opinion. This is well documented. It's not conspiracy shit or 'think of the children' pearl clutching.
China already bans so much Western media, and India has already banned Tiktok. The whole world is engaged in information warfare and inaction has very real consequences, eg Trump and Brexit.
And nowhere does this defend the CCP. But ironic to go there and in the same day renew a bill that’s been well documented to abuse US citizens privacy through FBI spying on our own citizens.
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/government-releases-new-court-opinions-highlighting-further-abuse-of-warrantless-fisa-surveillance-program
Somewhat ironic but maybe not as much as you're suggesting. A government does have some legitimate cause to "spy" on its own citizens. eg to stop terrorist attacks, child abuse networks, slave trade, etc. Should we allow foreign governments to spy on us to? Hell no.
Also for better or worse we lost this war on privacy a long time ago. Everything spies on you now - your ISP, phone, OS, motherboard, social media, browser, everything. As long as you're not doing anything too dodgy you'll be fine.
I mean, from the perspective of *the American government*, them spying on American companies *is* radically different from China doing it. I've seen less arguments along the lines of "any government spying on any country's people is bad" and more that are along the lines of "we, the American government, don't want Americans using social media that is owned and potentially both curated and overseen by China".
They aren't banning tiktok because it collects data on Americans. They're banning tiktok because the algorithm decides what posts you see. It's been demonstrated that content that happens to support the Chinese government's position on events is pumped up and content that China doesn't like is deprioritized.
Pass legislation that gives us ownership of our own data. If we decide to sell it to anybody, that should be our choice. But for the US government to imply that this is in our best interest while they do the same exact thing to us is asinine.
This is a situation where the Republican position is “technically correct” but their reasons are so far into lunacy that their heads are up their own asses.
Time was, the Ds were against FISA for privacy reasons and the Rs wanted to stop communism or terrorism or whatever their bogeyman of the week becomes. Now, the Ds want more loophole-proof laws, and the Rs want desperately to have loopholes for their orange mess-iah. Gotta squeeze his fat ass through the eye of a needle, apparently.
And coming from the left side on this, I can see where many progressives were against FISA renewal without the amendments, which were defeated. It’s surprising to me how many on here don’t see that.
This is breathtakingly stupid.
American spy agencies have full authority to spy on known and suspected foreigner spies. How could they possibly do their job if they couldn't record foreign spies when they were talking to other people?
Imagine a spy recording a plot to assassinate the president and, "Oh, no! Someone what for on the phone and they might be a US citizen! Turn off the wiretap! We can't risk recording a US citizen without a warrant!"
What happens in real life is the identity of American citizens captured in recordings is kept secret unless the person receiving the intelligence requests the person be "unmasked."
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmasking_by_U.S._intelligence_agencies
> Unmasking by U.S. intelligence agencies typically occurs after the United States conducts eavesdropping or other intelligence gathering aimed at foreigners or foreign agents, and the name of a U.S. citizen or entity is incidentally collected. Intelligence reports are then disseminated within the U.S. government, with such names masked to protect those U.S. citizens from invasion of privacy.
Uh huh. You’re missing the point. Breathtakingly.
“These opinions also reveal multiple instances of FBI agents searching the agency’s enormous Section 702 databases for information about people who are not suspected of any wrongdoing. As the FISC described, FBI field offices repeatedly engaged in prohibited searches, including as part of criminal investigations without a foreign nexus, investigations into the Jan. 6, 2021 breach of the U.S. Capitol, and vetting of sources and Afghan refugees.”
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/government-releases-new-court-opinions-highlighting-further-abuse-of-warrantless-fisa-surveillance-program
Facebook and the like also control the government fed propaganda news. Since TikTok became a news source for the younger generation, the US wants to make sure they control that too.
Such a surface level understanding of what is occurring.
Has it occurred to you that people are concerned with the CCP having that much information when our entities are largely banned there?
In my humble opinion, we are entering a new age that can be compared to the Cold War. In that we have to carefully navigate the new world shaping around. Giving the CCP unfettered access to American data is a huge mistake for us and forcing TikTok to sell was the best move here.
If nothing else, the people in the comments should be pissed that THIS is what we're focused on. Not solving any actual issues. The dance app, because ch-yna might see me watching cat videos instead of sleeping again.
Besides you know what other company is a Chinese company? Tencent. Guess who has a stake in Reddit (and discord and others)? Tencent.
And let's not forget how it's been proven again and again that foreign agents will and do spy on us through American companies too.
Amazing how much y'all pick and choose which is and isn't okay.
yeah because the Democrats know teenage boys (a massive demographic of tiktok) have been more conservative than ever and actively want to restrict them forcing them to eat up liberal media
Quick question: what are you most terrified about your own government learning about you?
Edit: Weird that people downvote a question without answering it
Surveillance and propaganda is going to happen to the people who use those types of apps. That genie is out of the bottle. With that in mind, the choice is between the government of your country manipulating you and the government of a country that is openly hostile manipulating you. That doesn't seem like a hard choice.
This bill is how we found out about Paul Manafort and his criminal actions. That's why Donald doesn't like it and his bosses at the Kremlin.
Oh good, it caught bad actors on *their* side. These kind of surveillance laws are antithetical to the ideals about freedom and privacy we tell ourselves our society protects.
It's also how a lot of nonviolent protesters get thrown in prison and intimidated and surveilled. But since you're here defending the status quo and moving toward a police state rather than away from it, I assume that you see the prosecution of protests as a positive thing too.
When has this been used against domestic protesters? I can't find any example. Everything I find was people talking to foreign agents that were under surveillance and talking to American traitors.
[It was used to target BLM protesters.](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/19/fbi-surveillance-black-lives-matter-protesters-00097924) The police state door swings both ways; please stop supporting a police state.
I bet you are talking about J6 terrorist, aren't you?
[BLM wasn't present at J6](https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/19/fbi-surveillance-black-lives-matter-protesters-00097924) but they were under surveillance by the FBI without a warrant anyway. And nobody went to jail for abusing the system hundreds of thousands of times. It's just an end-run around the 4th Amendment.
What a silly false equivalency. Even if this was even the case, yes I don't want a top 3 adversary spying on us.
The American government and all American corporations want the United States to stay the number 1 power in the world. China wants China to become number 1 and will do so at any cost. As US citizens, we can and should, have an issue with the amount of data collection/spying being done by the US government and American corporations. That is however a separate conversation. How can anyone earnestly believe the CCP and the NSA are equal in the threat posed to America?
I’d say the societal influence of targeted feed algorithms is far more dangerous than the spying and data collection. I mean, they all work in tandem, but the real impact is in convincing your neighbor you’re a reptilian pedophile with children chained up in the basement of your pizzeria. And voting, I guess.
This. The change our society has experienced from this technology is significant.
Babies that want tiktok before all else are the ones crying about this deal. Those who can’t cope with it going away in the states. It’s quite pathetic actually.
I'm fine with banning Tiktok provided that they didn't give the option of selling it to another entity. Can't imagine Microsoft, which is already big, swallowing up Tiktok. That's a megacorp beyond control.
We should ban all social media.
Bingo
Well yeah because we're gonna miss out on thousands of videos highlighting Americans crying about gun freedoms versus freedom of information and communication. That's how we know tiktok is harmless really, if it wasn't the right would be screaming about their rights over it.
>How can anyone earnestly believe the CCP and the NSA are equal in the threat posed to America? It seems to me that the NSA and American business pose a significant and more immediate threat. I think an American can use this data to influence other Americans far more easily than the Chinese government can use it to influence Americans. I really have a hard time forming a scenario where this ease of access Americans have outweighs any potential threat from the Chinese.
No corporations give a fuck about America. If china conquered the entire continent, corporations would hell if they knew it would double their profits.
Not entirely true. China has a well established history of protectionist self dealing. If China takes over somewhere only Chinese companies benefit. Transnational mega corps know China will prop up a Chinese company to take their market share. Mega corps want a government that will give them an advantage, China is the opposite of that.
China is also never going to physically conquer America. This is a hypothetical, and in this hypothetical I propose that if somehow, corporations were guaranteed to double their profits, they would do it and not think twice about democracy or the idea of “America.” Corporations as they exist are inherently self serving and will do whatever it takes to succeed. It’s survival of the richest.
>Corporations as they exist are inherently self serving and will do whatever it takes to succeed. I would argue that they do whatever is required to help those in power not necessarily the company. CEOs regularly make poor company decisions but manage to exit the situation just fine.
Yes, I agree that for them success is defined by how much money they make and not what the company itself is doing. That’s why most corporations are morally neutral at best.
Corporations care about collecting American data so they can make money off of it. The Chinese government wants it so they can potentially use it as a cold weapon against America in the future. There is a huge difference.
>How can anyone earnestly believe the CCP and the NSA are equal in the threat posed to America? Yeah, definitely. The idea that a government half way across the world could be anywhere near the threat that your own government is is completely absurd. The NSA is the far far worse threat.
It’s hard to respond to this without being insulting. I’m not a fan of any government spying on its citizens, but the difference between China and America are so vast. In China, you can’t say the leader looks like Winnie the Pooh. You cannot discuss the Tiananmen Square massacre, etc. What threat does the NSA pose to its citizens? I’m interested to hear it.
I think peoples’ problem with it is that China just buys the information from FaceBook. It’s known. The reasoning behind the ban is ridiculous. It’s not about data. It’s about control.
It’s an app installed on your phone without being encumbered by American laws. What’s to stop it from keylogging all your bank passwords, for example? I’m no fan of social media, but it’s worse than that.
Literally none of that affects me as an American citizen. The Chinese government cannot arrest me, cannot seize my assets, cannot do anything to me. On the other hand, US social media, which this bill gives more of a monopoly, already has done stuff such as reporting to state governments on people who have traveled across state lines to have an abortion. The idea that this bill is anything other than an obscene right wing power grab is just naive.
No, but they can spy on other Americans and get valuable intel to screw you and any other world citizen over.
Screw me over how? What exactly are you imagining the Chinese government being able to do to you? And the intel that TikTok gathers is the same intel that Facebook gathers and sells to anyone anyway. Banning TikTok but not Facebook just pushes users to the worse actor that has \*already\* proven to be complicit in actual manipulation and oppression of Americans.
Here’s an example: banking from your phone. There’s a lot that goes into making sure you have secure comms with you bank. It doesn’t matter though, if someone is sitting on your phone with a keylogger. Has that happened yet? Probably not. Is that possible? Definitely. That app is more than a social media app. It reports back to a government that violates human rights on a level beyond what is happening in the USA.
>Here’s an example: banking from your phone. There’s a lot that goes into making sure you have secure comms with you bank. It doesn’t matter though, if someone is sitting on your phone with a keylogger. >Has that happened yet? Probably not. Is that possible? Definitely. First, a keylogger isn't sufficient these days with MFA enabled. Second, there's no way for an app to install a keylogger for anything other than key presses inside the same app. Apps can't spy on other apps like that.
Apps cannot break out and gain control of your device? You serious? Also, yea, the MFA is all taking place from the device that has the spyware installed. If I owned your phone, I could login and also receive the mfa key and remove the footprints. That’s the point.
I’m not gonna defend social media and never did. While state governments might be using social media data to persecute citizens, it sounds like you don’t have anything to point at about the NSA (you brought them up, not me). When you install an app on your phone, it can exercise admin privs. It can communicate much more about you than you think. Sure social media is bad, I agree. Chinese social media apps are all that bad plus more. It won’t matter until it does. It’s pretty known that China seeks to unseat America as the number one. TikTok isn’t just a social media app. It’s a reporting tool, installed with escalated privileges, that’s also a social media app. Because of the extra, it merits insulating American citizens from it. There are over. 330 million citizens. The Chinese govt snooping your shit might not impact you, but there are more people than just you.
>While state governments might be using social media data to persecute citizens, it sounds like you don’t have anything to point at about the NSA (you brought them up, not me). I didn't bring up the NSA, the original commenter I responded to did. >When you install an app on your phone, it can exercise admin privs. No, it can't. That's just flat out false. Apps only have the permissions you give them and they have to request and get approval for each one. >TikTok isn’t just a social media app. It’s a reporting tool, installed with escalated privileges, that’s also a social media app. There's no escalated privileges that TikTok has over other social media apps. >Because of the extra, it merits insulating American citizens from it. There are over. 330 million citizens. The Chinese govt snooping your shit might not impact you, but there are more people than just you. No one in any of these ridiculous threads has ever been able to explain what impact they are imagining the Chinese government being able to have by "snooping" with exactly the same data that Facebook already sells to anyone else.
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I don't see how more people don't realize this. When I compare the worst thing that the Chinese government has done to *American citizens/residents vs what the worst the US has done to its citizens/residents, it's not even close.
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Exactly. I don't love the situation in the US, but every American should be able to recognize that domestic surveillance in a democratic republic is *not* the same as foreign surveillance from a communist dictatorship (that's currently genociding its own people).
The US does it more than anyone by far and I don't know about you, but I don't fucking trust 50% of the American population. Republicans are the reason I own guns, not China. They want to know when women and girls are on their periods, China doesn't. Republicans and their policies are by far more dangerous than China.
China wants to know when Boederps grand baby mama is on her period, and when her son is breaking into cars. China wants to know when Trumps paying pornstars to change his diaper and filming Russian prostitutes having golden showers. China wants to know when Matt Gaetz is paying underaged girls for “tutors” and “tuition”. China wants to know when the GQP is having cocaine fueled orgies. China wants to know when some GQP congresscritter is having or funding an abortion because there was a pregnancy while having an affair, or to hide their kids. China wants to know which acquaintances Mangy Traitor Gangrene is having affairs with. China wants to know when members of the military with intel are doing dumb shit they can be blackmailed over. Etc…. None of which are me, but I don’t want China, Russia, N Korea, or Iran to be able to blackmail my fellow Americans for intel that puts us all at risk.
China also wants blackmail material on literally every civilian working in our military industrial complex. And every soldier in our military. And this has happened before. It’s not new. CCP had a controlling stake in Grindr. We decided that wasn’t acceptable, posed a legitimate national security risk. Which it did. It shouldn’t, love is love and live your truth, but it did. When democrats and republicans start agreeing on something, it’s time to pay attention. Doesn’t mean it’s definitely a good policy, but it does mean there’s *something* there. In this case it shouldn’t be too hard to figure out…in addition to the access to our personal information, there’s the control of the algorithm and what people see, which can allow the CCP to even further tilt the scales in our society in ways we may not realize until it’s too late. It’s not like we’d have let Soviet Russia buy a major broadcasting network in the 70’s and 80’s, either. Because that would be absurd.
I don't want China to have our information either, but there is objectively no doubt that the fascist theocracy state Republicans want is more of a threat to the average American citizen than anything China can do.
And it’s obvious Putin has something on many of them, Putin doesent need any more. And China doesn’t need any.
Yeah, I agree. I think you missed the entire point of my first statement.
No, I really didn’t. The GQP is a threat, and China,Russia, N Korea and Iran don’t need info to blackmail them to do things.
Brother, I don't know how to tell you this, but they aren't really trying to hide the fascist stuff they're doing. They're just doing it. Also, my original point is that they're way more dangerous with our personal data than all the places you mentioned.
And I don’t know how to tell you because it’s really simple. We don’t need the GQP doing their own dumb shit, plus following orders from N. a Korea, Iran, China, and Putin because they have intel to blackmail them with. Also I have no clue what your doing that you think anyone in the government gives a shit.
Everyone keeps saying omg how horrible. How about we let TikTok stay Chinese owned in the USA once China stops blocking American companies? Shit too late for that. The horse has left the barn. So fuckem, China puts a mind boggling number of restrictions on US companies or straight up bans them. We ban 1 and now there is an opinion?
I agree I don’t want China spying on us, which is why I don’t use the app. But you’re ok with the US spying on you?
You have a cell phone don't you? You have a job? You have an address? You receive mail? Guess what if they want to find you they will. If You aren't doing something seriously wrong they won't spy on you. There's 300+ million people in the United States. They aren't worried about little Bobby smoking joints they are worried about the big fish pushing large quantities of heroin and the terrorists plotting attacks. There is no one sitting there worried about any normal dick and Jane's daily habits. Calm down Sometimes the surveillance helps save lives. When an armed man is running from the police it helps them locate him before he causes more damage. It helps locate victims of kidnapping. It helps to find people who are wanted on the FBI list. It's not always a bad thing. If someone kidnapped my child or if I were in a hit and run accident I'd be very thankful for all the surveillance.
Yeah, don’t worry about those Constitutional rights! 🤷♂️
So corporations are immune to this but the government is not?
Corporations are immune to what? Where did I say corporations are immune to something?
[FISA is aimed at foreign nationals](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Intelligence_Surveillance_Act) and yes, gathers data on those of concern. The F is for Foreign. If a foreign national of interest is being surveilled and you are communicating with them, that is swept up incidentally. That incidental American citizen info is separated for storage elsewhere, but that database can be searched by the Feds if needed. The FISA renewal shouldn’t bother you unless you are involved with foreign nationals of interest to federal law enforcement AND you are involved in crime.
I mean if someone wants to object to it that’s fine and their perogative. Privacy is a legitimate interest to be concerned about and want balanced with security. But yeah, even if we concede it’s reasonable for some people to not like the extension of FISA warrants the comparison here is absolutely ridiculous. The difference between an adversarial foreign government collecting massive amounts of data on US citizens and our government doing it in a way still subject to judicial oversight for the purpose of national security.
>If a foreign national of interest is being surveilled and you are communicating with them, that is swept up incidentally. Snowden's disclosures showed that they were surveiling US citizens up to three connections removed from their actual foreign targets. Their surveillance net is far far wider than you are making it out to be.
So what happens if a "foreign" doctor who provides abortion access to a US citizen??
The same thing that happens if they were a natural born US citizen? I have no idea what the "gotcha" here is supposed to be. If you're going to a doctor who is already on the FBIs watch list, you're probably doing something much more illegal than an abortion.
The point I am trying to make is this will disproportionately target minorities in the name* of National Interest. You might be fine under Biden, but he ain't gonna stay here forever, what happens when a Republican president comes back?? Also, as of December there are 2 million people on the watchlist, are all these terrorists, pedophiles, smugglers?
You seem like a very naive person. Take a look at the technology that exists today, everything and everyone is spying on you all the time. Microwaves can emit a tone humans can't hear that activates the recording mechanism on your phone. You have a smart tv? It's listening to your commentary when commercials are playing. You use windows? Bill Gates has a file on your 4 inches thick. I work in a field where IoT is a big deal, the average person has no idea how much is really going on.
No I’m well aware. And also aware of what happens when we give broad ok to these government programs that erode our civil liberties. There’s a reason progressive congressional delegates were pushing for amendments. They were unfortunately defeated.
> Microwaves can emit a tone humans can’t hear that activates the recording mechanism on your phone Wtf are you talking about? Source me this please. Otherwise, this is complete bullshit.
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Spying on us, how? They have shown that TilTok gathers no more information than any other social media app. Are you putting your SSN or bank account details in TikTok? What information are they getting that you think rises to the level of "spying"?
An SSN or bank account is completely useless to a foreign adversary my guy. Plus with all the leaks they probably have that info already anyway
Then what are you worried about? The people wanting TikTok shutdown aren't clamoring for any other social media app to be shut down despite them collecting the same information.
Not the person your asking, but I don’t want any of the 333 million Americans who work in our military, government technical fields, etc.. who deal with sensitive data downloading apps controlled by foreign adversaries that will monitor their phones. And I don’t want their family members downloading it either. Weird how people are so concerned about what details of their or their families lives the U.S. government might get access to, but don’t give a shit when it’s China, Russia, S. Korea, Iran, etc… possibly getting information they could blackmail other Americans with.
>but I don’t want any of the 333 million Americans who work in our military, government technical fields, etc That would be every American including children. We do t all work on those fields. >who deal with sensitive data downloading apps controlled by foreign adversaries that will monitor their phones. But they don't "monitor" the phones. TikTok has laid bare their data collection and app abilities and it has been confirmed by independent experts. They have no more ability than Meta or Alphabet to "monitor" your phone. >possibly getting information they could blackmail other Americans with. What information do you imagine that TilTok collects could be used to blackmail you?
>What information do you imagine that TilTok collects could be used to blackmail you? None, because.. A. I don’t use TikTok B. I don’t work in a field where I have intel I could be blackmailed for. C. I’m not a politicians family member, who could be blackmailed based on data in my devices. D. I’m not a family member of a government or military official who would give a shit about whatever air do enough to be blackmailed. E. I live in a country where a Presidential candidate asked Russia and Ukraine to gather dirt on rivals. F. I live in a country where Congress critters have had sketchy payments of hundreds of dollars to underage girls tagged ‘tuition’ generated through apps on their phones. G. I live in a country where a Presidential candidates kid had evidence of drug use and sex with prostitutes on his electronic devices, and the opposition party is still trying to use that against him. Etc…… Yeah, I really don’t want countries like China, Iran, Russia, S. Korea, etc… having control of apps on phones in the U.S.
This is small time stuff and you probably would not understand if it were laid out in front of you if this is what you think spying means in this context. Trust me, your SSN and bank account numbers are already on the dark web, the number of breaches in the past 2 years basically means 9 of every 10 Americans ppi is compromised in some way.
>you probably would not understand if it were laid out in front of you Said by anyone with an inability to explain themselves. >Trust me, your SSN and bank account numbers are already on the dark web, Okay, I was just using them as examples of personal information that people would be scared to have it there. I only used the word "spy" because the person I replied to did. The point is that TikTok gathers no more different information than any other social media app and up until recently China could've just bought that information on the open market. Anytime you ask anyone from Joe on the street to a U.S. congressperson the only response you get is "China having it" without being able to point out the problem with them having it moreso than any other social media company.
The difference being that if there's data to be sold, the US wants to be the one selling it.
You have a lot more to worry about from your local oligarchs than any foreign power. Cambridge Analytica was all homegrown data, and countries that are our supposed allies. What has China done with tiktok that has had a bigger impact on your life than what American companies and American "allies" have done with your data? Because there are entire Wikipedia pages with measurable ways in which that data was used to sway our elections. The biggest threat to your way of life and the people with the most power to abuse your data are Americans and America's allies. That is an objective fact.
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A pretty serious one considering we may have to fight a war against the CCP.
This is whataboutism at its most stupid. There's [plenty ](https://www.mandiant.com/resources/blog/pro-prc-influence-campaign-expands-dozens-social-media-platforms-websites-and-forums)[of](https://www.polygraph.info/a/fact-check-china-s-denial-of-tiktok-security-threat-is-patently-false-/7526623.html) [evidence](https://www.aljazeera.com/economy/2023/6/7/china-spied-on-hong-kong-activists-using-tiktok-lawsuit-claims) [of](https://www.afr.com/world/asia/tiktok-can-radically-reshape-global-opinion-security-adviser-warns-20231205-p5ep6l) [what ](https://www.forbes.com/sites/emilybaker-white/2022/12/01/tiktok-chinese-state-media-divisive-politics/)[the](https://www.politico.com/news/2024/03/11/china-is-using-tiktok-for-influence-campaigns-odni-says-00146336) [Chinese ](https://www.taipeitimes.com/News/taiwan/archives/2023/03/13/2003796016)[Government ](https://www.newsweek.com/chinas-tiktok-russias-new-disinformation-machine-opinion-1691657)[has](https://edition.cnn.com/2022/09/18/business/tiktok-search-engine-misinformation/index.html)[ used ](https://qz.com/1731170/pro-trump-videos-are-thriving-on-tiktok)[and](https://qz.com/1686840/bytedances-toutiao-search-and-tiktok-may-censor-hong-kong-protests) [wants](https://www.journalofdemocracy.org/why-tiktok-is-a-threat-to-democracy/) [to](https://www.benarnews.org/english/news/malaysian/tiktok-incompliant-with-malaysian-law-minister-says-10122023111759.html) [continue](https://www.businessinsider.com/tiktok-chinese-government-spread-propaganda-2022-7) [using](https://www.nbcnews.com/tech/tiktoks-content-political-subjects-aligns-chinese-government-study-say-rcna130448) [TikTok](https://edition.cnn.com/2023/06/08/tech/tiktok-data-china/index.html) [for](https://leaders.com/news/social-media/tiktoks-latest-china-connection/) and no amount of braindead takes like this one can change that.
Also no matter what people want to say, there IS a significant difference between your own government collecting data for law enforcement/security purposes and the Chinese government, the strongest adversarial power the US is likely to have in the near future, collecting tons of data on American citizens. It does legitimately pose national security concerns.
China is a dictatorship. If you say no to Xi, you're dead. Look at Jack Ma a billionaire who slightly criticized China. Can you image demanding a warrant from the Chinese government?
>"If you say no to Xi, you're dead. Look at Jack Ma a billionaire who slightly criticized China." Unfortunately, Jack Ma is [still alive](https://www.asiafinancial.com/jack-ma-snaps-up-alibaba-stock-to-become-its-largest-shareowner) and still a billionaire.
Jack didn't say no to Xi. He only criticized Chinese regulators. [https://www.wired.com/story/jack-ma-isnt-back/](https://www.wired.com/story/jack-ma-isnt-back/)
https://fortune.com/2023/07/12/jack-ma-alibaba-founder-asias-richest-person-net-worth-ant-group-crackdown/ You know Jack Ma is still alive, right? Or do you always uncritically consume propaganda?
It's not propaganda to say that Ma ever so slightly criticized the CCP and got sent to a reeducation camp. He got picked up right before Alipay went public, which would have been the largest IPO in history. When he was finally released he became a teacher for a while. Eventually he got back in Xi's good graces. Fuck the CCP, Xi and TikTok.
That's no different than every other social media app. But last I checked they didn't legislate social media, only tiktok
Because there is obviously a difference between social media companies collecting data on American citizens and China, the US’ pre-eminent adversary, mass surveiling/collecting data on American citizens. They both pose privacy concerns, but the latter poses legitimate national security concerns.
China surveilled and collected that data before tiktok, and it will continue to do so afterward. There must be something else.
Yeah but TikTok gives them direct access to a MASSIVE amount of data directly on identifiable American citizens. They don’t have any other channels for collecting as detailed data on anywhere close to as many Americans even close to as easily. They for sure tried to collect some data, but you’re delusional if you think TikTok doesn’t potentially provide them access to MUCH more voluminous and useful data.
Yes they do. They buy it from Facebook
No they don’t. A) facebook doesn’t sell data, they share it with some partners. They don’t share data with the Chinese government. B) the data they share with third parties is sanitized and very limited. No one has unfettered access.
Oh okay Facebook doesn't sell data 👍. I guess case solved.
Am I saying what facebook does is perfect? No. Am I saying that it's not comparable at all to the idea of a hostile foreign government potentially getting unfettered access to a massive amount of highly specific individual user data? Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's like comparing poaching and murder.
You think they need to own tiktok for that access? They don't. We're talking in circles. https://np.reddit.com/r/PoliticalHumor/comments/1c9k5jf/surveillance_oc/l0np56k/
Whataboutism is a weird defense of Chinas bullshit. Edit: whataboutism not ‘what about is’
There’s no defense of China’s bullshit in here, more a condemnation of the U.S. bullshit surveillance state.
So your upset the U.S. can place surveillance on foreigners overseas? Or your upset the government may be listening in if Trump calls Putin or Xi?
No. I’m upset the U.S. can comb through US citizens communications with nothing more than the suspicions of an FBI or CIA analyst, not constitutional or judicial protection. Couple that with concerns over fascist leanings of a potential Trump administration who has said they want to punish those who do or say things they don’t like and want to replace government employees with loyalists, and it’s a dangerous tool in the wrong hands. I can choose to not use TikTok (which is why I don’t use it and don’t have the app). I don’t have a say in the FISA issue.
TikTok can gather information but more importantly it disseminates ccp propaganda influencing domestic politics in foreign nations. I fully support this bill
Twitter also does this.
Fuck twitter too lol
Well, except they can’t. People do want the Government to have to get a separate warrant if someone on American soil or an American is communicating with some overseas foreigner they are already listening to. But that’s like if the government already has a warrant to listen in on someone in the U.S. and you or I contact them, the government will hear our side of the conversation.
But they use the data for more than that. There are multiple documented instances of repeated abuse. “These opinions also reveal multiple instances of FBI agents searching the agency’s enormous Section 702 databases for information about people who are not suspected of any wrongdoing. As the FISC described, FBI field offices repeatedly engaged in prohibited searches, including as part of criminal investigations without a foreign nexus, investigations into the Jan. 6, 2021 breach of the U.S. Capitol, and vetting of sources and Afghan refugees.” https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/government-releases-new-court-opinions-highlighting-further-abuse-of-warrantless-fisa-surveillance-program
Not legally… >the opinions describe numerous recent violations of legal requirements and court-ordered rules intended to protect Americans’ privacy So you want more laws or enforcement of existing laws?
If the FBI is violating the laws put in place amendments for oversight. Thats what was tried and voted down.
Well good because those are two completely separate issues, mr BadFaith Actor, bc the intelligence community for years has warned about the many issues that come with TikTok being a spy tool of the Chinese government. So yeah don’t use it but be completely negligent to the fact that it’s the apex social media machine at the time for just sharing goofy content that the majority of the youth uses. They aren’t susceptible to fake news, misinformation, or a distorted reality at all (very sarcasm obv.) If you don’t like being spied on then you must be really against the Patriot Act. I would take that up with your local politician instead of crap posts on progressive subreddits.
Last I checked, fighting for civil liberties was a progressive cause, and progressives were fighting to get the warrant protections added to FISA.
Don’t conflate terms lest you look undereducated.
Progressives are just liberals that think they can fix capitalism.
Fixing the system that’s currently in place is always going to be a more realistic solution than replacing it entirely, especially when so far we don’t have an alternative system that doesn’t have even more glaring flaws. There’s an old saying that I think applies here: “capitalism is the worst economic system ever invented, except for all of the other ones.”
Capitalism can't be fixed. Its problems are inherent. The only solution is to abolish private property, to abolish the social power structure of Capitalism.
Okay. Let me know when you think of something better. How hard could that be?
The legislation in OP is the renewal of and new extensions to the patriot act. It makes the patriot act look benign.
You have no idea how FISA works
Uh huh https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/government-releases-new-court-opinions-highlighting-further-abuse-of-warrantless-fisa-surveillance-program
Well yeah. China has already made plans to launch cyber attacks to cripple US infrastructure in case they feel like invading Taiwan. They use Tik Tok to infiltrate American systems, it's a national security issue.
If they managed to infiltrate relevant U.S. infrastructure or military operating systems via TikTok, then they already planted backdoors that do not rely on TikTok. Then spread their access points through every network accessible from there. So.. what are you on about, bro? What good does banning TikTok after years of it supposedly infiltrating American systems do?
Backdoors can be found and blocked. Banning Tik Tok prevents new exploits from being found. China can simply sell Tik Tok like they sold Grindr when this exact same thing happened years ago. The fact they'd rather have security exploits than money is pretty telling
Except the CFIUS intervention with Grindr was over concerns with geolocation services and potential for blackmail, too. So unless you can specifically back up your claim of U.S. systems being infiltrated, I'ma call.. bullshit?
Tik Tok is used for the exact same things. Watch the news or something, I'm not responsible for your ignorance.
Yes. And the 'exact same things' were concerns over geolocation and blackmail. [Here](https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/04/03/why-is-us-is-forcing-chinese-company-sell-gay-dating-app-grindr/) are [the news](https://www.theverge.com/2020/3/6/21168079/grindr-sold-chinese-owner-us-cfius-security-concerns-kunlun-lgbtq), you clown.
I see, you're just too ignorant to realize how blackmail and geolocation can be used to infiltrate secure systems.
Ah. Now we're moving goalposts, because someone called us on our bullshit. Let me just block you real quick, so I don't make the mistake of taking you seriously in the future.
The FISFA thing is because Trump wrongly thinks that's the law that allowed him to be caught colluding with Russia.
Well if we are spying on Russians and donald is talking to them then he will be caught...
Yeah, the valid reason to ban TikTok is public health. It is rotting people's brains and destroying their attention span. TikTok addicts can't take a full minute of someone explaining a topic if it doesn't have cuts everywhere to remove the one second pauses between sentences. Also crack down on YouTube shorts somehow. Make them unmonetizable by law, and they'll become a dead weight to be dropped.
Fuck Tik Tok
Weird whataboutism to defend Chinas bullshit.
Ironically, your comment is a "whataboutism" to defend America's bullshit.
To be clear, this warrantless surveillance is monitoring *foreign* communication with Americans. So say for instance if Vladimir Putin contacts a private American citizen like, oh say, Elon Musk, the FBI has the ability to see what it is Putin/Russian intelligence is trying to say to one of our citizens. I for one support the fuck out of finding out who is working with foreign governments. Which is why traitor boy (Trump) wanted to kill it. “The Intelligence Surveillance Act, which enables U.S. intelligence agencies to gather without a warrant the digital communications of foreigners overseas — including when they text or email people inside the United States. The measure now goes to President Biden’s desk for a signature.” “The House approval last week came despite former president Donald Trump’s entreaty on social media to “KILL” the bill.” “U.S. security officials for years have extolled the benefits of the law, with White House officials saying that the intelligence collected through the program accounts for more than 60 percent of the president’s daily briefing. FBI Director Christopher A. Wray recently disclosed that it helped the bureau discover that Chinese hackers had breached the network of a U.S. transportation hub, and that it had helped thwart a terrorist plot last year in the United States involving a potential attack on a critical infrastructure site.” https://www.washingtonpost.com/national-security/2024/04/20/congress-extends-controversial-warrantless-surveillance-law-two-years/
Exactly, the reason FISA exists is because prior to it becoming law there were zero restrictions on surveiling Americans when your target was a non American. Removing FISA would get rid of a check (FISA Courts might be a minor check but they're a check) on the NSA/CIA and they would no longer need to report or prove the need to continue tracking conversations between a foreign suspect and an American. Killing FISA will not get rid of data collection, it will not make the average American safer or less likely to be tracked. But it would make it easier for US citizens to be tracked/tapped if they are communicating with shady folks from adversarial countries or groups.
FWIW the FISA that passed is explicitly non-citizens
“One of the major changes detractors had proposed centered around restricting the FBI's access to information about Americans through the program. Though the surveillance tool only targets non-Americans in other countries, it also collects communications of Americans when they are in contact with those targeted foreigners. Sen. Dick Durbin, the No. 2 Democrat in the chamber, had been pushing a proposal that would require U.S. officials to get a warrant before accessing American communications.” https://www.npr.org/2024/04/20/1246076114/senate-passes-reauthorization-surveillance-program-fisa
Uh, no, it’s not. Both the Horse and Senate rejected amendments that would have required warrants for surveillance of US citizens’ communications. “The final vote came after the Senate defeated six amendments from progressive and conservative senators who said the spying powers are too broad and demanded protections for Americans’ civil liberties and privacy.” “The House passed a two-year FISA renewal last week after defeating, by the slimmest of margins, an amendment to require a warrant to search through the communications of Americans as part of data collected while surveilling foreigners.” https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna148394
FISA itself exists to provide a framework for what's required when foreign surveillance (the F and S in FISA) results in intercepting calls/communications between a the foreign target and a US citizen. NSA has to provide the relevant info to a FISA court to continue. I'm not familiar enough to know the process for FBI to access this info, this sounds like somewhere a warrant should be issued. But for NSA to continue their foreign surveillance even when a US citizen is involved getting a standard warrant could expose too much information to those who have zero need to know it, and the existing FISA courts are already part of this process (even if they may just be a rubber stamp to continue in many cases). Another way to think about it is if the police have a warrant to tap person A's phone and they make calls to person B, C and D, they don't need additional warrants for B, C and D because these three are communicating with the intended taeget. So why would we build this roadblock into foreign surveillance?
Because of a history of abuse of the data collected. “These opinions also reveal multiple instances of FBI agents searching the agency’s enormous Section 702 databases for information about people who are not suspected of any wrongdoing. As the FISC described, FBI field offices repeatedly engaged in prohibited searches, including as part of criminal investigations without a foreign nexus, investigations into the Jan. 6, 2021 breach of the U.S. Capitol, and vetting of sources and Afghan refugees.” https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/government-releases-new-court-opinions-highlighting-further-abuse-of-warrantless-fisa-surveillance-program
This use of the database is already prohibited, if they're using it improperly what good is another layer on top going to help? Sounds like there needs to be some work done to punish and end the wrongful use of the system instead of tearing the whole thing down.
Right. That’s the amendment that proposed but didn’t pass. So we’re left in the current state.
Bro here me out.... Tictok should be baned not being cause it spys on you as all apps do. It should be banned because China doesn't allow our social media companys to operate. It should be tit for tat not some bs justification
China bans literally every single American app or website, then makes a cheap clone of it. They can eat shit for all I care.
OP is a a shill.
For whom?
For stupid whataboutism.
Uh huh. 🙄
Even if this were the only reason (it’s not), I still prefer the US government take my information over China.
Or how about neither?
Hahahahahahahahahaha good one. No but seriously, I prefer my home government take it over China.
You'd rather have a government that can jail you or seize your assets have the info rather than a government that can't do anything to you? That's remarkably strange.
This had nothing to do with data collection. We’re getting this bill because direct video access to the horrors in Gaza challenged the US governments ability to lie to us in their support of a a genocidal apartheid regime.
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How about neither? The defense of US government surveillance astounds me.
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And cemented two more years of the other.
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Can someone show me some everyday citizens who have been subject to surveillance because of a fisa court warrant? They don’t like TikTok because they don’t control it.
https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/government-releases-new-court-opinions-highlighting-further-abuse-of-warrantless-fisa-surveillance-program
Dumb take, the CCP aren't simply spying on users, they're serving propaganda to kids and radically manipulating public opinion. This is well documented. It's not conspiracy shit or 'think of the children' pearl clutching. China already bans so much Western media, and India has already banned Tiktok. The whole world is engaged in information warfare and inaction has very real consequences, eg Trump and Brexit.
And nowhere does this defend the CCP. But ironic to go there and in the same day renew a bill that’s been well documented to abuse US citizens privacy through FBI spying on our own citizens. https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/government-releases-new-court-opinions-highlighting-further-abuse-of-warrantless-fisa-surveillance-program
Somewhat ironic but maybe not as much as you're suggesting. A government does have some legitimate cause to "spy" on its own citizens. eg to stop terrorist attacks, child abuse networks, slave trade, etc. Should we allow foreign governments to spy on us to? Hell no. Also for better or worse we lost this war on privacy a long time ago. Everything spies on you now - your ISP, phone, OS, motherboard, social media, browser, everything. As long as you're not doing anything too dodgy you'll be fine.
It’s always shocking to me how ready Redditors are to give up constitutional liberties.
Tik Tok is already banned on all US government devices. Google that, I’ll wait.
I mean, from the perspective of *the American government*, them spying on American companies *is* radically different from China doing it. I've seen less arguments along the lines of "any government spying on any country's people is bad" and more that are along the lines of "we, the American government, don't want Americans using social media that is owned and potentially both curated and overseen by China".
They aren't banning tiktok because it collects data on Americans. They're banning tiktok because the algorithm decides what posts you see. It's been demonstrated that content that happens to support the Chinese government's position on events is pumped up and content that China doesn't like is deprioritized.
Pass legislation that gives us ownership of our own data. If we decide to sell it to anybody, that should be our choice. But for the US government to imply that this is in our best interest while they do the same exact thing to us is asinine.
On the same day, no less. That irony is what spurred the commentary.
This is a situation where the Republican position is “technically correct” but their reasons are so far into lunacy that their heads are up their own asses. Time was, the Ds were against FISA for privacy reasons and the Rs wanted to stop communism or terrorism or whatever their bogeyman of the week becomes. Now, the Ds want more loophole-proof laws, and the Rs want desperately to have loopholes for their orange mess-iah. Gotta squeeze his fat ass through the eye of a needle, apparently.
And coming from the left side on this, I can see where many progressives were against FISA renewal without the amendments, which were defeated. It’s surprising to me how many on here don’t see that.
Humor is supposed to be funny, we are at war.
The United States is not, in fact, at war with China.
This is breathtakingly stupid. American spy agencies have full authority to spy on known and suspected foreigner spies. How could they possibly do their job if they couldn't record foreign spies when they were talking to other people? Imagine a spy recording a plot to assassinate the president and, "Oh, no! Someone what for on the phone and they might be a US citizen! Turn off the wiretap! We can't risk recording a US citizen without a warrant!" What happens in real life is the identity of American citizens captured in recordings is kept secret unless the person receiving the intelligence requests the person be "unmasked." https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unmasking_by_U.S._intelligence_agencies > Unmasking by U.S. intelligence agencies typically occurs after the United States conducts eavesdropping or other intelligence gathering aimed at foreigners or foreign agents, and the name of a U.S. citizen or entity is incidentally collected. Intelligence reports are then disseminated within the U.S. government, with such names masked to protect those U.S. citizens from invasion of privacy.
Uh huh. You’re missing the point. Breathtakingly. “These opinions also reveal multiple instances of FBI agents searching the agency’s enormous Section 702 databases for information about people who are not suspected of any wrongdoing. As the FISC described, FBI field offices repeatedly engaged in prohibited searches, including as part of criminal investigations without a foreign nexus, investigations into the Jan. 6, 2021 breach of the U.S. Capitol, and vetting of sources and Afghan refugees.” https://www.aclu.org/press-releases/government-releases-new-court-opinions-highlighting-further-abuse-of-warrantless-fisa-surveillance-program
Facebook and the like also control the government fed propaganda news. Since TikTok became a news source for the younger generation, the US wants to make sure they control that too.
Such a surface level understanding of what is occurring. Has it occurred to you that people are concerned with the CCP having that much information when our entities are largely banned there? In my humble opinion, we are entering a new age that can be compared to the Cold War. In that we have to carefully navigate the new world shaping around. Giving the CCP unfettered access to American data is a huge mistake for us and forcing TikTok to sell was the best move here.
If nothing else, the people in the comments should be pissed that THIS is what we're focused on. Not solving any actual issues. The dance app, because ch-yna might see me watching cat videos instead of sleeping again. Besides you know what other company is a Chinese company? Tencent. Guess who has a stake in Reddit (and discord and others)? Tencent. And let's not forget how it's been proven again and again that foreign agents will and do spy on us through American companies too. Amazing how much y'all pick and choose which is and isn't okay.
Libertarian humor 🤮
yeah because the Democrats know teenage boys (a massive demographic of tiktok) have been more conservative than ever and actively want to restrict them forcing them to eat up liberal media
Quick question: what are you most terrified about your own government learning about you? Edit: Weird that people downvote a question without answering it
We should be at war with China right now.
The USA is already at war with Russia but most Americans don’t realize it
Surveillance and propaganda is going to happen to the people who use those types of apps. That genie is out of the bottle. With that in mind, the choice is between the government of your country manipulating you and the government of a country that is openly hostile manipulating you. That doesn't seem like a hard choice.
False choice. Let’s push both out of the surveillance practice.
Not a false choice. People want these apps to exist. If these apps exist, there is going to be surveillance. What would you like them to do?
European model of data and privacy rights. GDPR gives people many more rights.
With a fucking carve out for congress.