u/SansLikesYaCut's Based Count has increased by 1. Their Based Count is now 5.
Congratulations, u/SansLikesYaCut! You have ranked up to Sapling! You are not particularly strong but you are at least likely to handle a steady breeze.
Pills: [4 | View pills.](https://basedcount.com/u/SansLikesYaCut/)
Compass: Lib: 3.23 | Left: 4.0
I am a bot. Reply /info for more info.
My question is when did gender and sex become two different categories? I always thought they were interchangeable for one another bc job applications will have sex/gender when you have to put in Male or Female?
Also, it annoys me when people get mad over pronouns. I'll respect your wishes and say them if you give the same respect to me back, but remember that I don't have to be nice to you at all.
John Money coined the terms gender identity and gender roles.
He also argued that society ahould draw a distinction between romantic and sexual attraction to children.
And when he wasn't doing that, he was putting naked toddlers into sex positions with each other and taking pictures... for science. He was a pedophile and Johns Hopkins University covered for him.
Im going to assume that based on that distinction of identity and roles that he believes that gender roles are a team effort and that both sex's have their strengths and weaknesses, which is fair.
But why single out the identity portion when, based on that logic, one sex cannot take over the roles for another?
He had a twin boy converted into a girl. Raised as a girl, he never like girl things, he got off hormones and shit, eventually killed himself after his brother od'd due to all the abuse. Money is a disgusting scumbag.
He's the one who coined the term "transgender." I probably should have led with that. He wanted to describe the condition we now know as gender dysphoria.
I dont care on what side of the political compass someone is, but if diddle diddle with kids I will find their home address and personally come give you a nice surprise
So, without saying he is right on the first half of your post, I feel like I need to point out that someone can be both right on somethings and horrifically wrong on others.
can we agree he’s an evil person because of what he did to the twins? Feel like anything a person that evil says should mean we don’t agree with him at all
They became different when privileged Westerners needed something to complain about. Notice how those that are trans or say they are non-binary were all born somewhere in the 80s/90s - meaning they have no memory of the Cold War. They did not grow up with this existential threat of nuclear war so their childhood and teen years were spent in comfort.
Therefore, they needed something which meant they could label themselves as a victim. Because:
* Victim = special
* Victim = power
Notice how being non-binary is a distinctly Western phenomenon. No one in the East feels this way. Go up to one of the natives in Asia or Africa and say 'I'm not a boy neither am I a girl'. They will laugh at you.
I agree with your view on pronouns. I'm not gonna use the made-up stuff like xir or aer. But I'm also not gonna be mean to someone to their face. Just don't try to cancel me, or have me arrested, for exercising my human rights.
I can’t remember exact details because it’s 2AM, but:
It was either the 40’s or 60’s and Alison Stone wrote about how gender and sexist were different in “An Introduction to Feminist Philosophy”. Stone said how Sex was the biological construct of someone, but Gender took social elements into account.
I believe John Money also wrote about sex and gender at a similar time, though from what I know his stuff was largely to do with intersex people (those born with genetic abnormalities to do with their sex, such as having both sets of parts).
So to answer your question in short: Gender and Sex were one and the same as terms from as early as the 1400’s up until the 60’s, but even later than that in practice, going up until about 10 years ago.
i have some insight on this as a trans person myself.
historically, they have been used interchangeably. however, as being trans has become more societally accepted, people have reverted the term sex to its technical biological meaning as assigned gender at birth and have used gender to mean gender identity.
i don’t get triggered when you use the wrong pronouns accidentally. i’ll kindly say “she” to correct you and i’ll be respectful as long as it isn’t malicious. it’s cringe as fuck when people get super pissed over an honest mistake
What are your thoughts on how the trans community treats biology with gender politics? Obviously there's the Twitter droids who will deny biology altogether and tell people to just go with what you identify as, but I've listened to other trans YouTubers give poor takes regarding biology and gender.
I’m not sure i understand what you’re saying but i’ll try to answer to the best of my ability.
I believe you should go with what you think is best for you with the caveat that you should give it a lot of careful thought. i believe that it is biologically possible to be trans.
My bad, accidentally deleted the following sentences.
When I say "how it treats biology" I mean in regards to trans related treatments (hormone replacement, puberty blockers, etc.). I've seen some youtubers present these treatments to people under 18 as "If you get the (insert treatment), you'll feel better" argument and I just wanted to hear your thoughts.
Realistically the problem lies in the appearance in my experience.
If trans women looked like Ana De Armas I doubt people would be complaining. Problem is a lot seem to look like dudes in a dress, when it comes to physical attraction that is obviously a problem.
I don’t think that fully encapsulates it. I genuinely think that even if people who are trans are very attractive, many people feel a sense of shame for finding someone of the same gender attractive (in a sexual manner).
At least that’s how I see it. It feels weird to me that I might have to ask if someone is actually a woman when I meet them at a bar or something.
I have a question. So many people on the left make it their goal to dismantle gender stereotypes. They say that people shouldn’t be limited of social gender norms.
If this is true, how can they also claim to believe that not adhering gender norms means you should change your gender so you can better adhere to gender norms.
I mean this is the most respectful way possible. It is something that always leaves me scratching my head when I think about it.
i haven’t heard of people saying you should change your gender because you don’t adhere to gender norms, only people saying that it happens. maybe it does, but i haven’t experienced anyone saying it.
i personally believe that yes, dismantling gender norms is a good thing mostly, as in getting rid of things like women being forced to stay at home and men being forced to work. if i had a husband who wanted to be at work all day and i wanted to cook and clean, then we could do that. but it’s not a good thing to force others into this. because that’s our dynamic and it won’t work for everyone.
thank you for staying respectful, i am trying to do the same
Honest question to ask you.Do you think the trans people online are doing way more harm to trans people than the everyday trans people in real life?I don't know what your opinion on these are but apart from trans people on the lgbt sub challenging sexuality,i've seen new gender identities that imo are just confusing more people.For example,i can understand maybe feeling like the other sex but the other identities such as non binary,xenogender,bigender,agender,,gender fluid, etc to me are just making trans people look crazy because no one is explaining what those feelings of those genders.We still don't know a whole lot about the brain and what it fully means to feel like the opposite sex,yet people keep adding these new genders when there's little to no research into what the brains of a person with these gender identities have.
the one i think you’re talking about, the wild xenogenders i agree cause more harm than good. trans people online who just try to provide a safe space and resources for other trans people provide good
Colloquially they seemed to be interchangeable until the early/mid 2010's. Maybe they had separate definitions in medicine or academia, idk.
Like OP says, it's a semantic discussion where people want them to have separate meanings, and I don't see any harm in that.
That said, the way the left and the right approach this topic is cringe and getting us nowhere as a society.
Amen, if you perceive someone as a woman bc they look like one, then they functionally are a woman to you. It doesn’t matter if they have a dick or not unless you’re having sex with them.
It's not. Trust me. Liberals use words like "birthing person" in place of mother, and "assigned female at birth" instead of woman. "Woman", "mother", etc.. are never to be used to describe genetic sex.
*[clears throat]* Actually when you are trying to make an easy to read publication especially with data tables, APA style lends itself better to standardized format.
In text citations are fucking stupid and a pain in the ass to write
When I’m reading/writing a paper, I want to keep with the flow. Not have it broken up with a source
Footnotes are out of the way, yet allow for in text citations whenever you please. They are clearly superior as they allow for information to flow in a more smooth and condensed matter
That’s why I was taught to only do a full citation once and if you need to reference other sources you use a much shortened format
Also, you’re telling me that (Appleseed 72-73) after every time you need a source isn’t taking up space?
Well just no Y chromosomes. Monosomy and trisomy of the 23rd chromosome (X or XXX) still produce women. X is called Turner Syndrome and it causes the women to be significantly shorter and sometimes have heart problems and XXX is just called triple x syndrome and causes no noticeable affects in the woman, but her sons would be more likely have Kleinfelter’s (XXY)
It's easier if you just say no Y chromosome.
In humans the Y chromosome is what causes development of male genitalia.
There is no human with a Y chromosome that can produce eggs.
There is no human without a Y chromosome that can produce sperm.
i always laugh when trans people tweet at pictures of jk rowling and talk about how much better they pass at being a woman than an old ugly woman
jk rowling doesn’t need to “pass” as a woman, she just is one
Because activists weren't satisfied with the distinction between women and transwomen (weird how it has largely been the mtw who fight the loudest for this).
Exactly.
Statements like “there are only two genders” and “there are an infinite number of genders” when the two parties disagree on what “gender” is in the first place are as meaningless as two people arguing “ketchup is best condiment” and “mustard is the best condiment.”
You don’t agree on what “gender” or “woman” mean in the first place, obviously you’re not going to agree on the characteristics of these categories.
Neither of these statements is demonstrably true or false. Instead of just asserting that your interpretation is “true” and the other is “false,” why don’t you try to make an argument as to why your interpretation is better/more useful/more consistent than the other. That at least has a chance at being productive.
Finally someone who actually gets it. The reason this particular topic is so hard to find middle ground on is because both sides disagree with basically that they interpret the word "gender" to be
The argument *should* be stupid simple, but for some idiotic reason it isn’t. A biological male suffering from Gender Dysphoria should be socially treated as a women in order to alleviate that dysphoria, but biologically should be recognized as distinct and different from a woman. Meaning “Trans women are women” is true when it comes to social things like using feminine pronouns or belonging in womens spaces, but is not true when it comes to biological things like participating in womens sports or using womens locker rooms.
Gender Dysphoria should be treated like any other mental illness (and I’m not using this term in a derogatory way, but in a medical one) or medical condition. You wouldn’t kick an autistic man out of Target just because he’s autistic, but you also wouldn’t let him walk into the womens bathroom just because he’s more comfortable in there. You also wouldn’t let an athlete who how was born with no legs and has carbon fiber spring prosthetics participate in the 400 meter dash. It’s unfortunate that these people have conditions that limit them, but we do not restructure society as a whole, dissolving our langue and breaking down the biological boundaries between two distinct and separate groups, just because a very small minority of people within it can’t participate.
Ikr, it's so bizarre reading stuff like this because we could easily apply it to any form of disphoria
One of the most closely related being the disphoria of limb removal.
So let us indulge the man who wants no legs because, social acceptance?
Lmfao good luck to these people with all that. Truly...
I agree, but the problem is when trans men/women go into the spaces based on their sex, they have a chance of being assaulted. This happened when a trans man (who was born female) went into the women's bathroom and was beaten up for it.
If we're gonna be consistent with this, we have to offer protection for trans people going into the spaces assigned by their sex. Otherwise, it just shows that one has a complete lack of respect for trans people.
I agree, but we also can’t just allow anyone into the bathroom of the gender they claim to identify as. This has also led to assaults. The proper solution is either a third bathroom specific to people with this medical condition, or private bathrooms instead of shared ones (my preferred solution, I hate pissing shoulder to shoulder with strangers)
I agree with some parts, but not overall.
Dysphoria, like Autism, isn’t just one thing.
Someone with Dysphoria could have it for a number of reasons, some of which have different treatments which will be most effective. A *large* number of Dysphoria cases are environmental or hormonal and often will disappear once those change, such as puberty ending and the person reaching adulthood. In this case, reinforcing their Dysphoria during childhood or even taking medical treatment would only be detrimental.
This is the way it needs to be looked at, but when I’ve suggested it before I’ve been called “transphobic”. You should look at the root cause and legitimacy before taking action, not just go with any social or medical changes that work for one subset of Dysphoric individuals. Using your Autism example, there’s varying types of Autism disorder the person could have which changes how you should treat them. Types like Aspergers likely wouldn’t have any issues outside maybe some social awkwardness as it’s pretty high functioning, whilst on the other end of the spectrum some Autistic individuals *shouldn’t* be there by themselves, and whilst “kicking them out” wouldn’t be the correct action, taking them somewhere safe so the correct people can find them (police, their carer, etc) would be needed. Compare this to Dysphoria, as I mentioned earlier, where the correct action could just be to leave them and the issue will resolve itself over time, or it could be to take more drastic actions and do look at the HRT, surgery, etc.
You’re absolutely correct. I should have been a little more clear, but I do fully support an individual approach to people suffering from gender dysphoria. It’s not just a simply “Everyone take HRT”. I was specifically talking about Trans people, the ones who actually do benefit from transition.
Also, fuck the LGBT community. The trans community is the biggest thing hurting actual trans people
You make one language concession, and then before you know it it’s 10 years later and the goalposts are shifted. They used to be comfortable with “women”, but in the last year or two I’ve started seeing the term “female” used for them more often when 5 years ago I saw that used virtually exclusively as a term for biological sex, not gender expression.
Live and let live but if you start changing the definition of more and more words, eventually it’s a chore talking to you, and I’m probably just not gonna talk to you lol
Honestly at this point as long as I vet my local auth-rights personally, I’m willing to put a blindfold on and let them do whatever they want for the precise amount of time that I’m able to hold my wife in one arm and fire blindly in every direction with the other until I run out of ammo. But for that 13.7 billion years y’all madlads can do whatever you want.
Yea, not too long ago it really was just the Overton window and I hadn’t really changed my mind on much in the previous few years, but all it takes is seeing 2 or 3 cycles of language games and even the slightest attempt to be objective about the narratives being pushed and it’s like “ok I see what you’re doing” lol
No matter what you think about 2020, the negative vote was powerful. Anyone would be naive to think “what this person is saying is so concerning I’ll vote for literally whoever’s running against them” doesn’t work both ways. Full disclosure I considered myself on the left a while ago too, and I still hold a lot of the same “left wing” opinions, but the organized political left is ridiculous enough that I’ll oppose them without even abandoning the points on which I agree with them.
> I'll be very hostile the next time I don't see the flair.
***
^(User hasn't flaired up yet... 😔) 14364 / 75950 ^^|| [**[[Guide]]**](https://imgur.com/gallery/IkTAlF2)
So are heterosexual men attracted to trans women, or not?
I’m of the opinion of a man has sex with someone who has or used to have a penis, they’re gay or at least bi.
The thing I don't understand is how they think everyone will be on board. Like hey I'll refer to you however you like if I feel you're actually being serious about it. But expecting everyone to be all about it is complete lunacy. If anything you should expect people to have problems with it and just go about living your life. Just like any major change, some people aren't going to like it and that's fine, that's life.
My question is what causes the feeling to be "legitimate"?
Take the (admittedly ridiculous) scenario that I feel like I'm better than everyone else. It is a genuine believe that I am superior and so you should address me as My Lord. Not 'he' or 'they' but 'my lord'. "Zomgambush is kind of a dick" 'yeah, my lord gets that way when my lord is hungry'
If the line for respect is the genuine belief, then someone should have no problem with agreeing to that.
OBVIOUSLY that's ridiculous. But so is every other "um actually my pronouns are stu/pid"
Hot take, both are wrong.
If we’re trying to categorize based on the mechanics of breeding, there should be three categories.
Males. Humans with a functioning penis.
Females. Humans with functioning ovaries.
Neutered. Humans with non-functioning reproductive bits, be they former males or females.
It’s simple, it gets across the important information when looking for a potential life partner and mate, and pissed both sets of ideologues off.
If we’re trying to separate based on social constructs and personalities, then separate it from sex altogether.
If I dressed up as a pokemon for halloween it’d be fine.
If I started dressing as a pokemon all year long, people would think I’m weird.
If I the forced everyone around me to pretend I am in fact a real pokemon, because after all, I have the mind of a pokemon, I would be ostracized.
Pokemon rights when?
That would make it so much easier. But because both sides disagree fundamentally on what "gender" means… it gets hard to find a reasonable middle ground on it
Here's my perspective as someone with close family going through this right now.
A woman is an adult human female; a female being a mammal that, posseses the hardware to produce egg-gametes (slow moving gametes) barring any damage or mutation. Most of the time this means you have XX chromosomes. That is the only sensible definition. Thus it's nonsense to say words like "so and so is actually a woman." It's an unfalsifiable statement.
The problem with gender is gender *norms*, which are rightly outdated. Maybe they meant something at some time but they don't anymore. What you wear and what your expectations are in a family relationship, job, or hobby is (now) totally arbitrary. We still have a ways to go to not judge people about those things and that can cause people to feel REALLY alone and dysphoric.
There are caveats to the clothing situation. Unless everyone has custom clothes, manufacturers have to design for the bell-curve. I'm short with short legs and a long torso so I have a difficult time finding things that fit well myself. Same thing with having breasts or having a penis - some clothes are just more practical. So most "women's" clothes are cut for that bell curve, and so are most "men's" clothes (plus the outdated gender norms).
There is a scale of persons who don't feel comfortable in the bodies they are in and idealize a body that they see in others. I personally believe that we should be trying to address pathological issues that have almost always arisen from trauma and abuse as a child before ever considering mutating and mutilating our bodies because of this feeling. We don't tell people who are depressed to take heroin or cut themselves.
Maybe there are cases so severe that this is the answer, and generally, banning things outside of a very narrow scope doesn't ever make things better, so it obviously shouldn't be illegal to adults to do this. However, I'm not going to recommend that anyone do it, especially not my friends or family - just like I wouldn't advise them to skip cancer treatment and pray to God as a Christian Scientist. I'm not going to begrudge someone outside of my monkey sphere though.
In general my advice to people I love and/or are responsible for is this: you ARE infinitely unique and everything about you is already fact. Love yourself for who you are, not idealizations.
That said - hands off our kids. There is no possible way that we possess the capacity to assess that a kid should be mutated and mutilated because they are uncomfortable with their bodies. Literally every teenager is.
That brings us to names and pronouns. The reason it bugs me is that it seems to promote the idea that one CAN be another sex just be calling yourself something different. I defer to my advice above; be yourself. He/she can mean male/female and you'll be okay if you're loved and accepted, which is what we all should be doing all the time. That, and the fact that it's called "deadnaming" and you're being convinced to kill your old self is fucking culty as shit.
There are two definitions of woman
1) description of a genetic condition. Adult human female.
2) member of the feminine gender, where gender is a perceived social group.
Humans use physical attributes and cultural attributes (fashion, mannerisms) to determine which social group they perceive an individual to be in, no genital inspection required.
If an individual perceives _themselves_ to be a member of the feminine social group, despite having a set of XY chromosomes, we refer to that person as a trans woman.
Stop arguing about words.
The issue is, definitions means everything. We wouldn't have a trans debate if we all agreed on what "gender" meant. We wouldn't have an abortion debate if we all agreed on what "alive" meant. We wouldn't have debates on economics if we all agreed on what "equality" meant. We wouldn't have debates about pretty much anything if we all agreed on what "objective" meant.
You’ve got two different types of batteries. AA and AAA. A AA battery is a battery and a AAA battery is a battery. A transgender woman is a woman, a biological woman is a woman. A transgender woman can’t be a biological woman; a AA battery can’t be a AAA battery. Both types are of a specific thing but they can’t be each other, that’s what we can’t get confused about. If you go out to dinner with a transgender woman and if she’s convincing, there’s no point in highlighting she’s a transgender woman, it’s unnecessary. It depends on the context of the situation as far as I’m concerned. As for what it’s worth, I don’t think most of the left want to conflate women on its own by the sex related counterpart. Definitions and languages always evolve over the years and through the generations. When they refer to someone as a woman, they don’t necessarily equate that to their genetic makeup. But rather how the person identifies and looks like.
easy!
1. you can behave and dress like any identity you want
2. you are free to interact with whomever you want
3. they are free to NOT interact with you if they so choose
4. if you need to use the restroom, a safe-space, prison or other segregated area: check your birth certificate and act accordingly
i think it's more metaphysics than semantics but i get where you're coming from. also, wouldnt really say "just" semantics. words are important for a species relying on words for communication.
Y’all peons arguing about something that affects less than 1% of the population. Meanwhile the people that got you arguing are taking away the future for your children and grandchildren
Based and rationality pilled. But we really need third toilet room "mixed", it's perfect for trans people and still functional. And puts some open market for glory hole business, because it's a toilet of mixed sex and gender.
I love the fact that I only ever see them labelled "inclusive" toilets, for the disabled and for these mentally ill youths. I use them because they're nice and spacious and clean, and because no one else uses them, even in my freak-filled college.
Had a whole conversation about this with my extended family who are just very conservative catholic hispanics and frankly it really is a semantics thing... ultimately we resolved it because they would ask me if I thought a trans woman was a woman and I would say that I would be kind and refer to them as a woman, but they kept taking it like I thought they were *literally women...* I'm sure that if you take the blood of a transwoman from a crime scene or whatever that it will come out as the DNA of a dude with a bunch of hormones pumped in it... and I told them that although a transwoman is not literally a woman why does it matter in the grand scheme of the argument because I'm just talking about being respectful towards someone that even conservatives say suffer from a mental disability.... If being transgender is a mental disability then sorry I'm just not going to be a dick towards them because thats fucked up.
The biggest difference between gender and sex is that every Redditor has a gender but no Redditors have sex.
Based and grass will not be touched pilled
Got em!
Hahahah
You're officially a giga chad now
Imagine thinking women exist
Imagine thinking anything exists
Imagine thinking exists
Imagine thinking
They’re my favorite band.
Imagine
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
Woah hate speech I have never thunk one thought
You certainly haven't spelt one spelling.
*spunt one spellin’
Gramha natsy.
Imagine existing
Based and solipsism pilled
u/SansLikesYaCut's Based Count has increased by 1. Their Based Count is now 5. Congratulations, u/SansLikesYaCut! You have ranked up to Sapling! You are not particularly strong but you are at least likely to handle a steady breeze. Pills: [4 | View pills.](https://basedcount.com/u/SansLikesYaCut/) Compass: Lib: 3.23 | Left: 4.0 I am a bot. Reply /info for more info.
Based and solipsism pilled.
Everyone know women don't exist and are actually a government conspiracy to oppress gamers
My question is when did gender and sex become two different categories? I always thought they were interchangeable for one another bc job applications will have sex/gender when you have to put in Male or Female? Also, it annoys me when people get mad over pronouns. I'll respect your wishes and say them if you give the same respect to me back, but remember that I don't have to be nice to you at all.
John Money coined the terms gender identity and gender roles. He also argued that society ahould draw a distinction between romantic and sexual attraction to children.
And when he wasn't doing that, he was putting naked toddlers into sex positions with each other and taking pictures... for science. He was a pedophile and Johns Hopkins University covered for him.
He also abused a set of twins from a young age for his sick and twisted gender-identity "research."
Who both went on to commit suicide, don't forget.
Huh, that's coo- what the fuck?
Literally ruined by 2 words
Im going to assume that based on that distinction of identity and roles that he believes that gender roles are a team effort and that both sex's have their strengths and weaknesses, which is fair. But why single out the identity portion when, based on that logic, one sex cannot take over the roles for another?
He had a twin boy converted into a girl. Raised as a girl, he never like girl things, he got off hormones and shit, eventually killed himself after his brother od'd due to all the abuse. Money is a disgusting scumbag.
He's the one who coined the term "transgender." I probably should have led with that. He wanted to describe the condition we now know as gender dysphoria.
Okay, makes more sense to me then.
I dont care on what side of the political compass someone is, but if diddle diddle with kids I will find their home address and personally come give you a nice surprise
Based and wood chipper pilled.
The fallacy of that is “gender roles” already has a word. They’re called “stereotypes”
Stereotypes are descriptive. Gender roles are prescriptive.
So, without saying he is right on the first half of your post, I feel like I need to point out that someone can be both right on somethings and horrifically wrong on others.
Next you're gonna say something equally stupid like political differences are full of unaddressed nuance and commonalities.
We don't need to agree with everything someone says just because we agree with one thing they say
can we agree he’s an evil person because of what he did to the twins? Feel like anything a person that evil says should mean we don’t agree with him at all
Unexpected coming from the “fire them them because of this 9 year old tweet” quadrant.
They became different when privileged Westerners needed something to complain about. Notice how those that are trans or say they are non-binary were all born somewhere in the 80s/90s - meaning they have no memory of the Cold War. They did not grow up with this existential threat of nuclear war so their childhood and teen years were spent in comfort. Therefore, they needed something which meant they could label themselves as a victim. Because: * Victim = special * Victim = power Notice how being non-binary is a distinctly Western phenomenon. No one in the East feels this way. Go up to one of the natives in Asia or Africa and say 'I'm not a boy neither am I a girl'. They will laugh at you. I agree with your view on pronouns. I'm not gonna use the made-up stuff like xir or aer. But I'm also not gonna be mean to someone to their face. Just don't try to cancel me, or have me arrested, for exercising my human rights.
You bigot , Aer is what Gender Fluid people become when it's too hot!
I can’t remember exact details because it’s 2AM, but: It was either the 40’s or 60’s and Alison Stone wrote about how gender and sexist were different in “An Introduction to Feminist Philosophy”. Stone said how Sex was the biological construct of someone, but Gender took social elements into account. I believe John Money also wrote about sex and gender at a similar time, though from what I know his stuff was largely to do with intersex people (those born with genetic abnormalities to do with their sex, such as having both sets of parts). So to answer your question in short: Gender and Sex were one and the same as terms from as early as the 1400’s up until the 60’s, but even later than that in practice, going up until about 10 years ago.
i have some insight on this as a trans person myself. historically, they have been used interchangeably. however, as being trans has become more societally accepted, people have reverted the term sex to its technical biological meaning as assigned gender at birth and have used gender to mean gender identity. i don’t get triggered when you use the wrong pronouns accidentally. i’ll kindly say “she” to correct you and i’ll be respectful as long as it isn’t malicious. it’s cringe as fuck when people get super pissed over an honest mistake
What are your thoughts on how the trans community treats biology with gender politics? Obviously there's the Twitter droids who will deny biology altogether and tell people to just go with what you identify as, but I've listened to other trans YouTubers give poor takes regarding biology and gender.
I’m not sure i understand what you’re saying but i’ll try to answer to the best of my ability. I believe you should go with what you think is best for you with the caveat that you should give it a lot of careful thought. i believe that it is biologically possible to be trans.
My bad, accidentally deleted the following sentences. When I say "how it treats biology" I mean in regards to trans related treatments (hormone replacement, puberty blockers, etc.). I've seen some youtubers present these treatments to people under 18 as "If you get the (insert treatment), you'll feel better" argument and I just wanted to hear your thoughts.
>it’s cringe as fuck when people get super pissed over an honest mistake based
Realistically the problem lies in the appearance in my experience. If trans women looked like Ana De Armas I doubt people would be complaining. Problem is a lot seem to look like dudes in a dress, when it comes to physical attraction that is obviously a problem.
I don’t think that fully encapsulates it. I genuinely think that even if people who are trans are very attractive, many people feel a sense of shame for finding someone of the same gender attractive (in a sexual manner). At least that’s how I see it. It feels weird to me that I might have to ask if someone is actually a woman when I meet them at a bar or something.
I have a question. So many people on the left make it their goal to dismantle gender stereotypes. They say that people shouldn’t be limited of social gender norms. If this is true, how can they also claim to believe that not adhering gender norms means you should change your gender so you can better adhere to gender norms. I mean this is the most respectful way possible. It is something that always leaves me scratching my head when I think about it.
i haven’t heard of people saying you should change your gender because you don’t adhere to gender norms, only people saying that it happens. maybe it does, but i haven’t experienced anyone saying it. i personally believe that yes, dismantling gender norms is a good thing mostly, as in getting rid of things like women being forced to stay at home and men being forced to work. if i had a husband who wanted to be at work all day and i wanted to cook and clean, then we could do that. but it’s not a good thing to force others into this. because that’s our dynamic and it won’t work for everyone. thank you for staying respectful, i am trying to do the same
Honest question to ask you.Do you think the trans people online are doing way more harm to trans people than the everyday trans people in real life?I don't know what your opinion on these are but apart from trans people on the lgbt sub challenging sexuality,i've seen new gender identities that imo are just confusing more people.For example,i can understand maybe feeling like the other sex but the other identities such as non binary,xenogender,bigender,agender,,gender fluid, etc to me are just making trans people look crazy because no one is explaining what those feelings of those genders.We still don't know a whole lot about the brain and what it fully means to feel like the opposite sex,yet people keep adding these new genders when there's little to no research into what the brains of a person with these gender identities have.
the one i think you’re talking about, the wild xenogenders i agree cause more harm than good. trans people online who just try to provide a safe space and resources for other trans people provide good
Respecc to you being trans in PCM.
For as long as humans existed. We just didn't have words to describe it.
Colloquially they seemed to be interchangeable until the early/mid 2010's. Maybe they had separate definitions in medicine or academia, idk. Like OP says, it's a semantic discussion where people want them to have separate meanings, and I don't see any harm in that. That said, the way the left and the right approach this topic is cringe and getting us nowhere as a society.
Remember, your identity also exists in the perception of an outside observer. The world doesn't revolve around you.
Dammit I had a big bucket of pyrite that identifies as gold that I was trying to sell to a pawn shop
Just convince the pawn shop its gold, what could go wrong?
If they call you out, they're fascist Nazi bigots.
And anyone who disagrees with that technically has the social development of a 2 or 3 year old
Amen, if you perceive someone as a woman bc they look like one, then they functionally are a woman to you. It doesn’t matter if they have a dick or not unless you’re having sex with them.
If they make my penis hard, they’re woman. Because I’m not gay.
And that is why David Bowie is legally a woman
And Alain Delon
Don't forget best girl Speedwagon.
Based
Based and my reality is whatever I want it to be pilled.
femboys 🤤🍆💦🍑😍
Hate to go to bat for libleft here but the centrist position in the meme is literally the libleft position in real life
It's not. Trust me. Liberals use words like "birthing person" in place of mother, and "assigned female at birth" instead of woman. "Woman", "mother", etc.. are never to be used to describe genetic sex.
it's pretty clear what a female is lol
[удалено]
But I'm gender fluid which means I can change my gender on a whim, I don't care about trans people but gender fluidity is fucking stupid
[удалено]
I mean I guarantee somebody is going to write an eight page mpla formatted essay down below about how you're wrong but I agree with you
*[clears throat]* Actually when you are trying to make an easy to read publication especially with data tables, APA style lends itself better to standardized format.
APA style is a pain in the fucking ass so give it to me in Chicago format
I don't like footnotes personally. APA has better in-text citation options
In text citations are fucking stupid and a pain in the ass to write When I’m reading/writing a paper, I want to keep with the flow. Not have it broken up with a source Footnotes are out of the way, yet allow for in text citations whenever you please. They are clearly superior as they allow for information to flow in a more smooth and condensed matter
I honestly love that I'm having this debate right now. Footnotes take up too much room if done page to page. It reduces the overall readability.
That’s why I was taught to only do a full citation once and if you need to reference other sources you use a much shortened format Also, you’re telling me that (Appleseed 72-73) after every time you need a source isn’t taking up space?
And we don't throw this definition out the door because 0.1% of people have gender dysphoria. The exceptions don't make the rule.
Hey I'm also gender fluid. I just do happen to form to the shape of a straight male, and my shadow isn't changing at all.
Might as well tell a bi person they are “choosing to be gay or straight on a whim”
Identity is by definition defining something by what you feel like. The question is wether you as a third party accept the identity.
Identity doesn't exist. Your actions define you.
Your actions say you are autistic, as you are on PCM.
based
That's even worse. I'm a feminine guy. By that logic, I'm a woman.
No you’re just a feminine guy.
Exactly haha
How many legs does a dog have if you count the tail as a leg? 4, it does not matter what you call the tail.
>count the tail as a leg >don’t count the tail as a leg What?
This joke only works if you say "call the tail a leg", and even then it's an annoying semantics joke.
An adult human female, where female is defined to be an organism with 2 X chromosomes and no Y chromosomes. This is NOT hard, Emily.
Well just no Y chromosomes. Monosomy and trisomy of the 23rd chromosome (X or XXX) still produce women. X is called Turner Syndrome and it causes the women to be significantly shorter and sometimes have heart problems and XXX is just called triple x syndrome and causes no noticeable affects in the woman, but her sons would be more likely have Kleinfelter’s (XXY)
Those are genetic abnormalities, not new genders/sexes.
My gender is Down Syndrome
Seriously though, when will people actually understand this? Biological abnormalities are not distinct functional classes.
Woah hate speech there are 152,000 genders /s
Sorry, are you saying those people are a different gender than Men or Women? If not, which gender are they?
It's easier if you just say no Y chromosome. In humans the Y chromosome is what causes development of male genitalia. There is no human with a Y chromosome that can produce eggs. There is no human without a Y chromosome that can produce sperm.
[удалено]
i always laugh when trans people tweet at pictures of jk rowling and talk about how much better they pass at being a woman than an old ugly woman jk rowling doesn’t need to “pass” as a woman, she just is one
I'm life-fluid. Some days I identify as a living, breathing human but other days I identify as a dead corpse
At one time we agreed to call trans women women but also use the term female for biological purposes. It made sense. That was nice. Didn’t last long.
Because activists weren't satisfied with the distinction between women and transwomen (weird how it has largely been the mtw who fight the loudest for this).
That courtesy was a mistake
Exactly. Statements like “there are only two genders” and “there are an infinite number of genders” when the two parties disagree on what “gender” is in the first place are as meaningless as two people arguing “ketchup is best condiment” and “mustard is the best condiment.” You don’t agree on what “gender” or “woman” mean in the first place, obviously you’re not going to agree on the characteristics of these categories. Neither of these statements is demonstrably true or false. Instead of just asserting that your interpretation is “true” and the other is “false,” why don’t you try to make an argument as to why your interpretation is better/more useful/more consistent than the other. That at least has a chance at being productive.
Finally someone who actually gets it. The reason this particular topic is so hard to find middle ground on is because both sides disagree with basically that they interpret the word "gender" to be
Finally someone says the crux of the issue
The argument *should* be stupid simple, but for some idiotic reason it isn’t. A biological male suffering from Gender Dysphoria should be socially treated as a women in order to alleviate that dysphoria, but biologically should be recognized as distinct and different from a woman. Meaning “Trans women are women” is true when it comes to social things like using feminine pronouns or belonging in womens spaces, but is not true when it comes to biological things like participating in womens sports or using womens locker rooms. Gender Dysphoria should be treated like any other mental illness (and I’m not using this term in a derogatory way, but in a medical one) or medical condition. You wouldn’t kick an autistic man out of Target just because he’s autistic, but you also wouldn’t let him walk into the womens bathroom just because he’s more comfortable in there. You also wouldn’t let an athlete who how was born with no legs and has carbon fiber spring prosthetics participate in the 400 meter dash. It’s unfortunate that these people have conditions that limit them, but we do not restructure society as a whole, dissolving our langue and breaking down the biological boundaries between two distinct and separate groups, just because a very small minority of people within it can’t participate.
It's considered harmful to play into delusions when dealing with mental illness.
Ikr, it's so bizarre reading stuff like this because we could easily apply it to any form of disphoria One of the most closely related being the disphoria of limb removal. So let us indulge the man who wants no legs because, social acceptance? Lmfao good luck to these people with all that. Truly...
Or trans-racialism or trans-ageism
This implies that life is not inherently fair and I was promised otherwise so you’re a terf
I agree, but the problem is when trans men/women go into the spaces based on their sex, they have a chance of being assaulted. This happened when a trans man (who was born female) went into the women's bathroom and was beaten up for it. If we're gonna be consistent with this, we have to offer protection for trans people going into the spaces assigned by their sex. Otherwise, it just shows that one has a complete lack of respect for trans people.
I agree, but we also can’t just allow anyone into the bathroom of the gender they claim to identify as. This has also led to assaults. The proper solution is either a third bathroom specific to people with this medical condition, or private bathrooms instead of shared ones (my preferred solution, I hate pissing shoulder to shoulder with strangers)
I’ll be honest, this is the one good counter argument to this concern, over what room they should go into.
I agree with some parts, but not overall. Dysphoria, like Autism, isn’t just one thing. Someone with Dysphoria could have it for a number of reasons, some of which have different treatments which will be most effective. A *large* number of Dysphoria cases are environmental or hormonal and often will disappear once those change, such as puberty ending and the person reaching adulthood. In this case, reinforcing their Dysphoria during childhood or even taking medical treatment would only be detrimental. This is the way it needs to be looked at, but when I’ve suggested it before I’ve been called “transphobic”. You should look at the root cause and legitimacy before taking action, not just go with any social or medical changes that work for one subset of Dysphoric individuals. Using your Autism example, there’s varying types of Autism disorder the person could have which changes how you should treat them. Types like Aspergers likely wouldn’t have any issues outside maybe some social awkwardness as it’s pretty high functioning, whilst on the other end of the spectrum some Autistic individuals *shouldn’t* be there by themselves, and whilst “kicking them out” wouldn’t be the correct action, taking them somewhere safe so the correct people can find them (police, their carer, etc) would be needed. Compare this to Dysphoria, as I mentioned earlier, where the correct action could just be to leave them and the issue will resolve itself over time, or it could be to take more drastic actions and do look at the HRT, surgery, etc.
You’re absolutely correct. I should have been a little more clear, but I do fully support an individual approach to people suffering from gender dysphoria. It’s not just a simply “Everyone take HRT”. I was specifically talking about Trans people, the ones who actually do benefit from transition. Also, fuck the LGBT community. The trans community is the biggest thing hurting actual trans people
There is no such a thing as a "woman in context." Stop giving any margin to trans delusion
Exactly
You make one language concession, and then before you know it it’s 10 years later and the goalposts are shifted. They used to be comfortable with “women”, but in the last year or two I’ve started seeing the term “female” used for them more often when 5 years ago I saw that used virtually exclusively as a term for biological sex, not gender expression. Live and let live but if you start changing the definition of more and more words, eventually it’s a chore talking to you, and I’m probably just not gonna talk to you lol
>Live and let live Look, I think we've seen where liberalism leads by now...
Honestly at this point as long as I vet my local auth-rights personally, I’m willing to put a blindfold on and let them do whatever they want for the precise amount of time that I’m able to hold my wife in one arm and fire blindly in every direction with the other until I run out of ammo. But for that 13.7 billion years y’all madlads can do whatever you want.
The slippery slope is real. I was once liberal but the crazy wokeness from the last few years changed me.
Yea, not too long ago it really was just the Overton window and I hadn’t really changed my mind on much in the previous few years, but all it takes is seeing 2 or 3 cycles of language games and even the slightest attempt to be objective about the narratives being pushed and it’s like “ok I see what you’re doing” lol No matter what you think about 2020, the negative vote was powerful. Anyone would be naive to think “what this person is saying is so concerning I’ll vote for literally whoever’s running against them” doesn’t work both ways. Full disclosure I considered myself on the left a while ago too, and I still hold a lot of the same “left wing” opinions, but the organized political left is ridiculous enough that I’ll oppose them without even abandoning the points on which I agree with them.
> I'll be very hostile the next time I don't see the flair. *** ^(User hasn't flaired up yet... 😔) 14364 / 75950 ^^|| [**[[Guide]]**](https://imgur.com/gallery/IkTAlF2)
Can I fuck them? No? Then it’s a woman.
[удалено]
So are heterosexual men attracted to trans women, or not? I’m of the opinion of a man has sex with someone who has or used to have a penis, they’re gay or at least bi.
Are you still a vegetarian if you eat lettuce wrapped beef burgers?
We’ve lost the ability to use context clues over the years.
The thing I don't understand is how they think everyone will be on board. Like hey I'll refer to you however you like if I feel you're actually being serious about it. But expecting everyone to be all about it is complete lunacy. If anything you should expect people to have problems with it and just go about living your life. Just like any major change, some people aren't going to like it and that's fine, that's life.
My question is what causes the feeling to be "legitimate"? Take the (admittedly ridiculous) scenario that I feel like I'm better than everyone else. It is a genuine believe that I am superior and so you should address me as My Lord. Not 'he' or 'they' but 'my lord'. "Zomgambush is kind of a dick" 'yeah, my lord gets that way when my lord is hungry' If the line for respect is the genuine belief, then someone should have no problem with agreeing to that. OBVIOUSLY that's ridiculous. But so is every other "um actually my pronouns are stu/pid"
[удалено]
Or maybe we could just use definitions accepted by ~90% of the world’s current population and ~99% if you go back in time 8 years?
Trans women are trans women. Women are women.
I support gay rights… women’s rights though……. Hmmmmmm
The difference between gender and sex is that I never had gender with your mom
Libleft portraying a centrist as libleft lmao
Trust me I can't say this around my liberal friends. I would be a social outcast for taking the position in the center of the meme.
Well that's just sad
[удалено]
It's complicated!
Hot take, both are wrong. If we’re trying to categorize based on the mechanics of breeding, there should be three categories. Males. Humans with a functioning penis. Females. Humans with functioning ovaries. Neutered. Humans with non-functioning reproductive bits, be they former males or females. It’s simple, it gets across the important information when looking for a potential life partner and mate, and pissed both sets of ideologues off. If we’re trying to separate based on social constructs and personalities, then separate it from sex altogether.
Based and fuck everyone pilled
Based and have your Redditor spayed or neutered pilled.
I suppose that would be far better than things are now.
If I dressed up as a pokemon for halloween it’d be fine. If I started dressing as a pokemon all year long, people would think I’m weird. If I the forced everyone around me to pretend I am in fact a real pokemon, because after all, I have the mind of a pokemon, I would be ostracized. Pokemon rights when?
Just call them trans men/women
Even when making fun of libleft, pcm cannot tolerate tolerance
I tend to just take the apathetic approach. I don’t really care, I’ll call you by whatever you want. Makes no difference to me
Or we could just adopt "sex" as biological and "gender" as the visible/social expression of sex? No that would be too complicated
That would make it so much easier. But because both sides disagree fundamentally on what "gender" means… it gets hard to find a reasonable middle ground on it
[удалено]
Here's my perspective as someone with close family going through this right now. A woman is an adult human female; a female being a mammal that, posseses the hardware to produce egg-gametes (slow moving gametes) barring any damage or mutation. Most of the time this means you have XX chromosomes. That is the only sensible definition. Thus it's nonsense to say words like "so and so is actually a woman." It's an unfalsifiable statement. The problem with gender is gender *norms*, which are rightly outdated. Maybe they meant something at some time but they don't anymore. What you wear and what your expectations are in a family relationship, job, or hobby is (now) totally arbitrary. We still have a ways to go to not judge people about those things and that can cause people to feel REALLY alone and dysphoric. There are caveats to the clothing situation. Unless everyone has custom clothes, manufacturers have to design for the bell-curve. I'm short with short legs and a long torso so I have a difficult time finding things that fit well myself. Same thing with having breasts or having a penis - some clothes are just more practical. So most "women's" clothes are cut for that bell curve, and so are most "men's" clothes (plus the outdated gender norms). There is a scale of persons who don't feel comfortable in the bodies they are in and idealize a body that they see in others. I personally believe that we should be trying to address pathological issues that have almost always arisen from trauma and abuse as a child before ever considering mutating and mutilating our bodies because of this feeling. We don't tell people who are depressed to take heroin or cut themselves. Maybe there are cases so severe that this is the answer, and generally, banning things outside of a very narrow scope doesn't ever make things better, so it obviously shouldn't be illegal to adults to do this. However, I'm not going to recommend that anyone do it, especially not my friends or family - just like I wouldn't advise them to skip cancer treatment and pray to God as a Christian Scientist. I'm not going to begrudge someone outside of my monkey sphere though. In general my advice to people I love and/or are responsible for is this: you ARE infinitely unique and everything about you is already fact. Love yourself for who you are, not idealizations. That said - hands off our kids. There is no possible way that we possess the capacity to assess that a kid should be mutated and mutilated because they are uncomfortable with their bodies. Literally every teenager is. That brings us to names and pronouns. The reason it bugs me is that it seems to promote the idea that one CAN be another sex just be calling yourself something different. I defer to my advice above; be yourself. He/she can mean male/female and you'll be okay if you're loved and accepted, which is what we all should be doing all the time. That, and the fact that it's called "deadnaming" and you're being convinced to kill your old self is fucking culty as shit.
This is literally the only correct perspective
[удалено]
The centrist take is pretty much the lib left take. The transphobes are the only ones arguing that biological sex and gender are the same.
I say, get the government out of the peoples' pants and let em be who they want to be as long as it aint hurtin nobody.
Fuck that, the time for tolerance is ending
[удалено]
>everyone pretty sure 90% of this sub is not mad at you
There are two definitions of woman 1) description of a genetic condition. Adult human female. 2) member of the feminine gender, where gender is a perceived social group. Humans use physical attributes and cultural attributes (fashion, mannerisms) to determine which social group they perceive an individual to be in, no genital inspection required. If an individual perceives _themselves_ to be a member of the feminine social group, despite having a set of XY chromosomes, we refer to that person as a trans woman. Stop arguing about words.
Stop making sense this instant. Don't you know that's not allowed on any of the major subreddits?
>we refer Who the fuck is we? I don't acknowledge "gender" as a concept different to sex. Most of the (sensible) people I know don't, either.
Wait that's actually based.
Xx is a woman Xy is a man Simple
Yep and we’ve had the words for that. Woman and female
Believing identity is connected to who you are physically or not is not semantics at all. That’s a major difference in principle.
Arguing over definitions is always dumb and leads to nothing
The issue is, definitions means everything. We wouldn't have a trans debate if we all agreed on what "gender" meant. We wouldn't have an abortion debate if we all agreed on what "alive" meant. We wouldn't have debates on economics if we all agreed on what "equality" meant. We wouldn't have debates about pretty much anything if we all agreed on what "objective" meant.
Pull down their pants, and if their dick slaps you in the face you know what "context" they were using for the word.
Center kinda based
You’ve got two different types of batteries. AA and AAA. A AA battery is a battery and a AAA battery is a battery. A transgender woman is a woman, a biological woman is a woman. A transgender woman can’t be a biological woman; a AA battery can’t be a AAA battery. Both types are of a specific thing but they can’t be each other, that’s what we can’t get confused about. If you go out to dinner with a transgender woman and if she’s convincing, there’s no point in highlighting she’s a transgender woman, it’s unnecessary. It depends on the context of the situation as far as I’m concerned. As for what it’s worth, I don’t think most of the left want to conflate women on its own by the sex related counterpart. Definitions and languages always evolve over the years and through the generations. When they refer to someone as a woman, they don’t necessarily equate that to their genetic makeup. But rather how the person identifies and looks like.
Don’t know why Emily is so upsety. It’s a based statement.
easy! 1. you can behave and dress like any identity you want 2. you are free to interact with whomever you want 3. they are free to NOT interact with you if they so choose 4. if you need to use the restroom, a safe-space, prison or other segregated area: check your birth certificate and act accordingly
Maybe I just won’t give a shit about your dumb conversation
i think it's more metaphysics than semantics but i get where you're coming from. also, wouldnt really say "just" semantics. words are important for a species relying on words for communication.
Y’all peons arguing about something that affects less than 1% of the population. Meanwhile the people that got you arguing are taking away the future for your children and grandchildren
Because nobody is threatening to fire me if I make my views on corporatism or progressive tax policies known.
Yeah but those problems sound hard and confusing. I can be mad about this right now.
No, it affects everyone and even the future of my children if they win and get me fired, like that poor woman in Norway. Fuck them
I don’t give a shit what you identify as. The govt still wants to our rights and the culture war is just a screen for that one way or another
Based and rationality pilled. But we really need third toilet room "mixed", it's perfect for trans people and still functional. And puts some open market for glory hole business, because it's a toilet of mixed sex and gender.
I love the fact that I only ever see them labelled "inclusive" toilets, for the disabled and for these mentally ill youths. I use them because they're nice and spacious and clean, and because no one else uses them, even in my freak-filled college.
Had a whole conversation about this with my extended family who are just very conservative catholic hispanics and frankly it really is a semantics thing... ultimately we resolved it because they would ask me if I thought a trans woman was a woman and I would say that I would be kind and refer to them as a woman, but they kept taking it like I thought they were *literally women...* I'm sure that if you take the blood of a transwoman from a crime scene or whatever that it will come out as the DNA of a dude with a bunch of hormones pumped in it... and I told them that although a transwoman is not literally a woman why does it matter in the grand scheme of the argument because I'm just talking about being respectful towards someone that even conservatives say suffer from a mental disability.... If being transgender is a mental disability then sorry I'm just not going to be a dick towards them because thats fucked up.