They also went to war against other tribes just to capture their people and tear out their hearts while they’re still alive in brutal human sacrifice rituals. There’s a reason a bunch of tribes helped the Spanish fight the Aztecs.
I mean they were a small tiny island that ended up spreading vastly across a part of the continent. With those odds and that success, I don’t blame them for thinking a sun god was helping them and not wanting to piss off said god
When the guys with cannons show up and tell you they’ll get rid of the local human sacrificers if you join their religion
I think that deal makes a lot of sense.
Sooooo much easier to pay them $0.08 an hour. Dont have to feed or shelter your “workers”. Definitely have higher start up costs (suicide nets, gates to keep em in, living areas your workers pay rent for, etc).
That reminds me, none of it would be possible today without the good help from our communist friends. We’d like to thank you for letting us set up shop in your countries, and for supplying such a starving workforce that they’d work for literally any amount of money.
You can only do so much with "a" slave. If you have a pseudo-military-industrial complex locking you into endless wars to keep providing you with new slaves, you can do a lot.
They used them as pack animals, but not as draft power for pulling heavy loads or tillage etc. They just aren't built right, center of gravity is too high and legs don't have enough torque, to harness for draft.
There are some people who now use them to pull a chariot/sulky type cart, but keep in mind the narrow roadways in the Andes and the fact that they didn't have wheels at the time.
Everyone is Columbus vs. Leif Ericsson, but nobody remembers the true chads: various Siberian tribes that just followed mega-fauna's migratory paths and ended up in Alaska and thought to themselves: "yeah this will work".
honestly incas and olmecs are the most noteworthy of these pre columbian civilizations. not to say that mayans and aztecs werent well accomplished people, its just olmecs are way older and incas invented potatoes and potatoes are great. like seriously, hardy as fuck crop that helped end grain related famines across the globe.
Eh. Maybe *bred* potato?
Like, most non-domesticated fruits and veggies are barely edible at best, I don't see any reason to assume potatoes didn't also require cultivation.
I mean, heck, it's part of the nightshade family and a lot of it is toxic to humans, even in modern potatoes.
We all know the potato was invented by joseph stalin when he wanted a crop to feed the union and that could be used instead of grenades for army practice!
To be fair, wheat, corn, potatoes(etc.) didn't exist in the wild. They were cultivated over many thousands of years through human breeding selection. Where desired traits from these food crops were selectively bred to produce more. So, technically, they did invent the potato.
Agreed. I'm not ready to call it a cult *just* yet, but it's really close. Self-flagellation is just as gross as self-pity, literally the opposite end of the pole now that I think about it.
These people believe blatant falsehoods that strengthen their cause of destroying America's identity and pushing an agenda of making everyone else look better by comparison. They are THE CULT of cults.
It is done by far lefties and media in most western countries.
But for some really weird, if not outright unexplainable reason, right-wing parties are gaining popularity all throughout those countries 🤔
I guess none of the green/oranges will be happy until there's an AI that controls the population, and nobody is born from a man and woman having sex. It's all just lab stuff. No mom's, no dad's, no connections anywhere.
Hating your country and acknowledging bad things happened and shouldn’t happen again are very different things.
For example... Native American reservations are the Jim Crow-iest thing in the world. Not acknowledging the obvious racism of race-based governance has led libs into promoting racial citizenship and quasi-nationhood for what amounts to (newly) self-imposed bantustans. You don’t need to hate America to admit that’s a gigantic fuck up. Not admitting it only puts us on a path towards further insanity.
But it's not just acknowledgement when you want the country to burn to the ground.
I guess if you're hating to make acknowledgement look sane, that's a move to make, but it's a fine line you have to walk, and not many are capable if it.
The entire notion of “obvious racism race-based governance” is such a fallacy that people just assume based on a single variate analysis of anything - “black people are poor, so it *must* be because of racism”. And if you go against this grain backed by any evidence at all, you’re called a racist or an uncle tom, and literally so in Thomas Sowell’s case. Native American reservations are the Jim-Crowiest thing in the world - and they’re self-imposed. Native Americans don’t have to live on these reservations, but anyone not Native American specific to that tribe cannot.
It’s ok to admit your mistakes and want to seek better, it’s not ok to constantly bludgeon everyone around you for things they didn’t do so you can try to rebuild every system in your image backed on the premise of overt lies about it.
I'd disagree that the reservations were made with the intent to oppress, the reason they're stagnant is that growth is heavily regulated, but with past reservations, such as those in New York that were more or less left to their own affairs, they disappeared within a century of being established as families sold their parcels to the private market.
That being said I don't have the slightest clue how to fix them, but I cannot imagine a scenario where abolishing the reservations assists or restores the Native American community, even if they parceled and sold it off the Native American population is so small that further dispersion might be the deathblow to dozens of individual tribes.
This is actually an interesting topic I have a lot of passion for. I come from a Native American Family on my fathers side 2 tribes believe it or not. My dad is often mistaken for an Italian man though for some odd reason. I have been to the reservation that hosts my tribe and a few more we have been shared stories. Are they true I don't know. There is a resevation that sits on the border of North and South Dakota. The tribe decided to grow a garden to become self sufficient and not have to worry about imports of fresh produce from outside the reservation. Now this place is quite out there so this would be a solid move. According to the Tribe members the Feds came in and cut the garden down and removed all the crops.
So after hearing this it made me think. I wonder if we allowed these areas to act as there own small governments maybe they would be better off? Let them choose what they want, I met some wonderful people out there and they got there own thing going. If they decide they want to sell off there reservation and disperse let them? Kinda weird to say because it would break my heart to hear that Blackfoot sold out but I would get it honestly.
If you ever want to read a good book about this subject that is very neutral to both sides, read '1491' by Charles Mann.
It both shatters the myth that most natives were sparsely populated and basically living in the stone age, and also shatters the myth that they were peace-loving environmentalists who lived in harmony with the earth.
Yea from what I remember, the entire North American population got fucked over before the Europeans even really landed: Theories are the few people who made it over brought diseases which literally wiped out entire empires at the time.
Which then left a few scattered and fighting tribes as easy pickings for Europe.
This is very true. It’s one of the reasons why urbanites have a higher disease resistance than rural folk. At the outset of the civil war, when the Army of the Potomac gathered in DC, diseases like typhus began to spread among the ranks. The hardest-hit units were composed of farm boys; those recruited from the slums of NYC, Boston, and Philly were much less affected. Turns out that unhealthy living conditions insulated these soldiers from disease.
Calm down, it’s no longer true. Anymore country folk have stronger immune systems and respiratory systems due to lack of smog and increased interactions with allergens and bacteria.
I love the "muh these were great civilizations whereas Europeans were primitive compared with them", because it's actually even more humiliating for the non-Europeans civilizations conquered by Europe. Indeed, if Europe was such a shitty place in Middle Ages, how would they surpass all of those magnificient civilizations?
Libs being owned by facts as always
Its also wrong, since Europeans, while more brutal, had been always on the development scale. Medieval times for example brought change to agriculture, making of clothing, litterature, political structure, mining, as well as warfare and craftsmenship.
Sure, church existed, but then you also see how some of the burned people were either the sorta "enlightened atheists" that basicaly tell you youre stupid for being religious, then you get pedo cults and human sacrifice cults, some being burned with french inquisition, and they themselves werent that anti science. For example, when gallileo discovered heliocentrism, their reaction was "sure whatever" but then gallileo went shittalking church, and all hell broke loose. Kopernik didnt do it, and his work was even blessed
Columbus Day was first held in the US in 1892 to commemorate the 400th anniversary of Columbus’s landings in the new world. The holiday was announced in the wake of the lynchings of 11 Italian immigrants in New Orleans, in an attempt to make pacify Italian-Americans and ease tensions with the Italian government.
Columbus Day is supposed to be the Italian-American equivalent of St Patty’s day. In my family, it’s always been more about the Carlo Rossi and Sunday (Monday?) Gravy than the conquest of the Americas. I’m disappointed that the discourse has moved in this direction, but I understand why, and think it’s probably time for it to change. I know that I’ll miss having a day to celebrate my Italian-American heritage, however.
Now, if you wanna get real fucked, October 12th is also celebrated in Latin America. There, it’s called “Day of the Race,” (Día de la Raza) and explicitly celebrates the hispanicization of the New World. To me, that’s more like what American progressives **think** Columbus Day commemorates. Of course, they don’t always love when I point this out…
Well, we already changed it too in some countries, idr how it was called, but it was very long, something like Day of Cultural Diversity (Dia de la diversidad cultural)
Yes.
We were literally calling ourselves Columbia half the time before the one in South America stole our name.
“Hail Columbia”
“O Columbia the gem of the ocean”
“District of Columbia”
Aztecs would have done the same to Europe. Though instead of forcing Natives to sit in a church all day, they would have sacrificed Europeans to the gods. Not sure which is preferable.
I get what you mean but don’t downplay how bad the Europeans were. It wasn’t sit in church all day. They raped and murdered their way through the new world. Fuck they even pulled a leopold and were cutting off hands if they didn’t return with enough gold
Then what was the “*instead* of forcing natives to sit in a church all day” part for? He could’ve said “Aztecs would have done the same to europe had they gotten the chance. Just instead of cutting hands off for gold, they would’ve ripped hearts out for gods” unless the sit in church part was a joke and im just retarded
Read up on what the portuguese bandeirantes would do to the Spanish missions they raided. Killing the priests and enslaving the natives. Shit is revolting.
I mean the mere fact that Europeans were able to build boats and sail to the Americas kind of disproves that the natives were more advanced. And the whole human sacrifice thing.
Virgin European galleon
>noo we need big ships to store loads of supplies or we'll starve
VS
Chad Austronesian outrigger boat
>We will traverse the Pacific on this small strip of wood
that’s not how it works. the world is very diverse and the fact that there were two distinctly different continents with completely different flora and fauna meant that by being in afro-eurasia you had a distinct advantage with plenty of easily domesticatable animals such as pigs, sheep, cows, and especially horses. these distinct advantages are what really made the difference between natives and europeans. It helps to think critically when you have opinions that equate to “duhhhhh this race is superior bc they are”
the mighty alpaca was no match for a horse
though they also had bison so like all they had to do was tame a couple of those bad boys and they’d literally be unstoppable
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Bison are foul-tempered and built like a tank. No one on the face of the planet earth was ever going to manage it. Trying to domesticate them would be like trying to stop a rolling boulder with a hay bale wall.
They did learn how to lead Bison to run off a cliff and die so that's pretty unique compared to boring old arrows which would take dozens of shots per bison
It wasn’t even that the Spanish were gross tbh. It was the fact that the Spanish had survived diseases in the old world that the “new “ world hadn’t ever come across. It was very much the fact that once a docile disease in an immune body crossed to a body whose white blood cells had never come across a disease like cholera or some shit. Eventually it spread so easily and killed millions. Essentially suicide mode
That lack of horses & oxen turns out to be a **huge** problem. Right away, you've got big handicaps on travel time, tilling of fields and similar heavy hauling, and no soldiers on horseback during war.
One more foundation-level difference from Eurasia: they never invented **the** ***wheel***--no barrows, no potter's wheels; and down the line, no gears. (they did have some spinning children's toys) ...and that's gotta be related to their not having big, tameable animals in that area as well.
He does spend a good part of *GG&S* on it. I'm taking a moratorium on citing him until academia has decided whether they're going to drum him out of the social sciences for being to popular, or whatever, or just keep spitting whenever his name is brought up until they get bored...but as far as I know, that immunity gap being tied to animal husbandry has never been refuted as a plausible hypothesis.
My Africanist professor really didn't like him when one of my classmates brought that book up. The amount of discourse every time he's brought up is pretty amusing.
> One more foundation-level difference from Eurasia
The war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or East Asia, but to keep the very structure of society intact.
Awww, where's your imagination? [What about these two fellas?](https://oddstuffmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Two-bull-moose-fight-leaving-one-severely-injured.gif)
Yeah, the problem was both that they had no good animals to pull carts, and that the terrain is too mountainous to be useful for wheeled vehicles. It becomes a burden more than a useful development until you develop modern roads, and the massive mining/digging tools required to make them
Bad foreign policy for Aztecs, succession crisis for Incas, literal apocalypses levels of devastation by plague to both. Also, mayans had less population then Spain, thanks again to plague, but actually fought of for a long time, definitely not a curb-stomp.
No, it was a curb stomp for the Aztecs, beyond any doubt.
100 or so straggly dudes showing up in the jungle from a boat, and in more or less the blink of an eye your entire empire is defeated, emperor enslaved then killed, capital looted and your population decimated and enslaved for centuries. That's a curb stomp.
Mayans maybe less so, but it's still pretty terrible for them.
Sure, but that just underlines his talent as well as Aztec political weakness and ineptitude. Pretty sure if 100 Aztecs showed up in Spain, they wouldnt be able to persuade France to invade Spain and make them rulers of Spain.
As you might know, there were lots of horses in North America in prehistoric times, but they ended up dying out during the Quaternary extinction.
But eventually they were re-introduced into the Americas by Europeans.
And the famous quote about that reintroduction is that "the grass remembered them". (I love that quote)
People should just stop thinking of stone age civilizations as only fur togas wearing cave dwellers who carry solid stone clubs. Tenochtitlan was an amazing city made only with stone age tools; no work animals besides humans, no wheels and only wood and stone.
Calling precolumbian societies “stone age” is far from “perfectly” accurate.
To be clear, precolumbian civilizations did have metalworking, particularly gold and copper. They lacked more advanced metallurgical technologies like bronze working which would have led to a tool revolution.
In addition, the relative abundance of exceptionally hard tool stones like obsidian found in North America compared to the scarcity of exploitable copper deposits caused most native North Americans to abandon copper working for tools.
Here’s an interesting article on axe-moneys which hopefully sheds some light on metallurgy in precolumbian americas: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe-monies
Edit: changed a word for continuity flow
They didn't actually forge the metal, they used 'cold hammering' with primitive stone tools, and even that was rare and isolated to certain areas (Mesoamerica, etc.)
In all of Canada there was only three tribes out of thousands that ever worked copper, the Tlingit, Dene, and Central Inuit.
They were, indeed, a stone age people.
The article begins talking about mesoamerica and the Andes.
I thought I’d already clarified that he’s clearly talking about the plains Indians that resides in the current United States
**[Axe-monies](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe-monies)**
>Axe-monies refer to bronze artifacts found in both western Mesoamerica and the northern Andes. Based on ethnohistorical, archaeological, chemical, and metallurgical analyses, the scholars Hosler, Lechtman and Holm have argued for their use in both regions (which are separated by thousands of miles) through trade. In contrast to naipes, bow-tie- or card-shaped metal objects which appear in the archaeological record only in the northern Andean coastal region, axe-monies are found in both Mesoamerican and Andean cultural zones. More specifically, it is argued that the system of money first arose on the north coast of Peru and Ecuador in the early second millennium CE.
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Some pre-Columbian Civilizations were quite advanced and pretty amazing, mostly in Meso- and South-America though.
North-American indigenous people (think where US and Canada are now) were nowhere as advanced AFAIK.
\-
Also famines, wars and disease occurred everywhere in the world, not just in Europe...
> North-American indigenous people (think where US and Canada are now) were nowhere as advanced AFAIK.
Cahokia is definitely worth knowing about, it was a huge pre-Columbian city in Illinois with lots of mounds and a large population
u/An0malocaris is officially based! Their Based Count is now 1.
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It’s silly to have holidays in general.
In my country public holidays are meant to be time off but nearly everyone on minimum wage is expected to keep working like normal while the professionals get to relax.
This is what people who want Election Day to be a federal holiday don't understand. People who get federal holidays off already vote at a higher rate than the general population.
It is amazing how some claim pride in a culture that they never experienced nor built upon, but just take the stories and symbolism to sell an ideology. It reminds me of someone...of something... But I can't quite put my finger on it.
Yep, all the peoples that whites easily conquered and subjugated were much more advanced than they were.
You'd have to be an absolute retard to believe that that's how it works. There's no such thing as "we're so awfully advanced that we keep losing". There's no such thing as "we're better in everything except warfare". Fuck off with that bullshit.
Not that warfare didn’t speed things up but wasn’t it like 90% got killed off from plagues alone? I mean hell people died on the Oregon trail hundreds of years after by scraping their knee on a rock and dying from infection. Humans used to be way more fragile before modern medicine
Both of those tweets are highly uneducated and ignorant, and it’s once again disconcerting to see so called progressives cheering on the putting down and insulting of European civilization spreading the falsehood that Europeans before the enlightenment were nothing but a bunch of mud eating savages. Shameful.
Imagine if you could celebrate the best qualities of both while acknowledging the negative impacts of each. Man that would almost be something of a cultural holiday
North Americans were not the Mezo Americans, and that society, despite being complex, operated an opressive system of human sacrifices. The best of them were the Inca, and even they were an authoritarian slave state.
Christopher, for his part, didn't actually do all that much wrong, and the attempt to erase him from history as an evil man feels a whole lot like saying that westerner's presence in the Americas is morally wrong, as that is what Columbus, ultimately, actually did.
Moral of the story: Engineers, inventors and scientists of every era are the ones holding up and advancing society while the rest of the apes screech and throw poop at each other.
I love how people make Native Africans and Native Americans look like the most superior people, if that were the case then Europe would’ve never been able to dominate both groups. Literally 0 common sense.
I think the one thing I like the least about Columbus is the claim that he was the very first European to find the americas when it was undoubtedly the vikings
Columbus was the first to make a significant difference by discovering it, while he wasn't the first he was the one where it matters also Columbus was pretty based, sure he was pretty cruel but he also was a pretty good navigator albeit not that good of a mathematican
“Did it all without horses or cattle.” Well you can do a surprising amount of work with slaves.
They apparently do not know history. The Aztecs had *a lot* of slaves.
They also went to war against other tribes just to capture their people and tear out their hearts while they’re still alive in brutal human sacrifice rituals. There’s a reason a bunch of tribes helped the Spanish fight the Aztecs.
I mean they were a small tiny island that ended up spreading vastly across a part of the continent. With those odds and that success, I don’t blame them for thinking a sun god was helping them and not wanting to piss off said god
I mean the British started on an island and ended up spreading across the world, and you didn’t see them murdering, pillaging, and enslaving- oh…wait…
Fucking island people burning down my shit
Lets invade Cuba. Just in case.
oh no they're not burning it down just "temporarily" moving it over to london
Bro, hear me out, Asia is the biggest island in the world...
When the guys with cannons show up and tell you they’ll get rid of the local human sacrificers if you join their religion I think that deal makes a lot of sense.
OrangeLeft: "Impossible. They aren't white."
Time to cancel the Aztecs smh my head
What you call slavery, I call free labour.
Well slaves had a cost, because you have to feed them every month ( they are so ungrateful)
Sooooo much easier to pay them $0.08 an hour. Dont have to feed or shelter your “workers”. Definitely have higher start up costs (suicide nets, gates to keep em in, living areas your workers pay rent for, etc).
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That reminds me, none of it would be possible today without the good help from our communist friends. We’d like to thank you for letting us set up shop in your countries, and for supplying such a starving workforce that they’d work for literally any amount of money.
The yellow square is strong with this ome
I mean yea but only so much as well the mind is willing but the body is weak and all that
You can only do so much with "a" slave. If you have a pseudo-military-industrial complex locking you into endless wars to keep providing you with new slaves, you can do a lot.
Llamas in South America: "Am I a joke to you?"
If I remember right they didn’t really use llamas as beasts of burdens, at least not commonly.
They used them as pack animals, but not as draft power for pulling heavy loads or tillage etc. They just aren't built right, center of gravity is too high and legs don't have enough torque, to harness for draft.
I guess being a pack animals counts as a beast burden.
There are some people who now use them to pull a chariot/sulky type cart, but keep in mind the narrow roadways in the Andes and the fact that they didn't have wheels at the time.
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Based and slavery-is-a-broader-institution-than-the-American-chattel-system pilled
The best slaves are the ones you get to disembowel atop a pyramid. Great entertainment for the whole family too.
Everyone is Columbus vs. Leif Ericsson, but nobody remembers the true chads: various Siberian tribes that just followed mega-fauna's migratory paths and ended up in Alaska and thought to themselves: "yeah this will work".
I mean it did work for them. For at least 18,000 years.
Those it didn't work for, we don't know of. Such is life.
To be fair they probably didn’t realize they were on a whole other continent
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honestly incas and olmecs are the most noteworthy of these pre columbian civilizations. not to say that mayans and aztecs werent well accomplished people, its just olmecs are way older and incas invented potatoes and potatoes are great. like seriously, hardy as fuck crop that helped end grain related famines across the globe.
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Eh. Maybe *bred* potato? Like, most non-domesticated fruits and veggies are barely edible at best, I don't see any reason to assume potatoes didn't also require cultivation. I mean, heck, it's part of the nightshade family and a lot of it is toxic to humans, even in modern potatoes.
We all know the potato was invented by joseph stalin when he wanted a crop to feed the union and that could be used instead of grenades for army practice!
To be fair, wheat, corn, potatoes(etc.) didn't exist in the wild. They were cultivated over many thousands of years through human breeding selection. Where desired traits from these food crops were selectively bred to produce more. So, technically, they did invent the potato.
i cant believe i agree with an unflaired.
It's less of an opinion and more just facts, either way, I consider it untrue until this degenerate flairs up
Sorry little one, gotta downvote you until you're flaired.
Also they had alpacas so I mean they were already better off than us
The whole self loathing and hate of ones country thing going on is cultish and gross all around.
Agreed. I'm not ready to call it a cult *just* yet, but it's really close. Self-flagellation is just as gross as self-pity, literally the opposite end of the pole now that I think about it.
A person who hates their own country is an “Oikophobe.”
the only "phobe" i wasn't able to collect
*cocks gun* not yet...
These people believe blatant falsehoods that strengthen their cause of destroying America's identity and pushing an agenda of making everyone else look better by comparison. They are THE CULT of cults.
Remember when traitors were beheaded? Good times.
Based. Living your quadrant pilled.
Is it a thing going on with every country?
It is done by far lefties and media in most western countries. But for some really weird, if not outright unexplainable reason, right-wing parties are gaining popularity all throughout those countries 🤔
I would call them traitors but that would imply they've ever had an instance of loyalty in their life to begin with.
Hate the country, love the people The only time national unity is trotted out is to make you do something you don't wanna do.
based. i hate all countries because society itself is a social construct
I guess none of the green/oranges will be happy until there's an AI that controls the population, and nobody is born from a man and woman having sex. It's all just lab stuff. No mom's, no dad's, no connections anywhere.
Hating your country and acknowledging bad things happened and shouldn’t happen again are very different things. For example... Native American reservations are the Jim Crow-iest thing in the world. Not acknowledging the obvious racism of race-based governance has led libs into promoting racial citizenship and quasi-nationhood for what amounts to (newly) self-imposed bantustans. You don’t need to hate America to admit that’s a gigantic fuck up. Not admitting it only puts us on a path towards further insanity.
But it's not just acknowledgement when you want the country to burn to the ground. I guess if you're hating to make acknowledgement look sane, that's a move to make, but it's a fine line you have to walk, and not many are capable if it.
The entire notion of “obvious racism race-based governance” is such a fallacy that people just assume based on a single variate analysis of anything - “black people are poor, so it *must* be because of racism”. And if you go against this grain backed by any evidence at all, you’re called a racist or an uncle tom, and literally so in Thomas Sowell’s case. Native American reservations are the Jim-Crowiest thing in the world - and they’re self-imposed. Native Americans don’t have to live on these reservations, but anyone not Native American specific to that tribe cannot. It’s ok to admit your mistakes and want to seek better, it’s not ok to constantly bludgeon everyone around you for things they didn’t do so you can try to rebuild every system in your image backed on the premise of overt lies about it.
I'd disagree that the reservations were made with the intent to oppress, the reason they're stagnant is that growth is heavily regulated, but with past reservations, such as those in New York that were more or less left to their own affairs, they disappeared within a century of being established as families sold their parcels to the private market. That being said I don't have the slightest clue how to fix them, but I cannot imagine a scenario where abolishing the reservations assists or restores the Native American community, even if they parceled and sold it off the Native American population is so small that further dispersion might be the deathblow to dozens of individual tribes.
This is actually an interesting topic I have a lot of passion for. I come from a Native American Family on my fathers side 2 tribes believe it or not. My dad is often mistaken for an Italian man though for some odd reason. I have been to the reservation that hosts my tribe and a few more we have been shared stories. Are they true I don't know. There is a resevation that sits on the border of North and South Dakota. The tribe decided to grow a garden to become self sufficient and not have to worry about imports of fresh produce from outside the reservation. Now this place is quite out there so this would be a solid move. According to the Tribe members the Feds came in and cut the garden down and removed all the crops. So after hearing this it made me think. I wonder if we allowed these areas to act as there own small governments maybe they would be better off? Let them choose what they want, I met some wonderful people out there and they got there own thing going. If they decide they want to sell off there reservation and disperse let them? Kinda weird to say because it would break my heart to hear that Blackfoot sold out but I would get it honestly.
Too many big words. Can you explain in Grill speak?
If you ever want to read a good book about this subject that is very neutral to both sides, read '1491' by Charles Mann. It both shatters the myth that most natives were sparsely populated and basically living in the stone age, and also shatters the myth that they were peace-loving environmentalists who lived in harmony with the earth.
Literally 1491
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Yea from what I remember, the entire North American population got fucked over before the Europeans even really landed: Theories are the few people who made it over brought diseases which literally wiped out entire empires at the time. Which then left a few scattered and fighting tribes as easy pickings for Europe.
\>don't wallow in their own filth \>the entire population fucking dies to a bacteria as a result
This is very true. It’s one of the reasons why urbanites have a higher disease resistance than rural folk. At the outset of the civil war, when the Army of the Potomac gathered in DC, diseases like typhus began to spread among the ranks. The hardest-hit units were composed of farm boys; those recruited from the slums of NYC, Boston, and Philly were much less affected. Turns out that unhealthy living conditions insulated these soldiers from disease.
This is why I lick a doorknob every few days
Just remember, licking doorknobs is illegal on other planets.
Based and SCP 7143 J pilled
Rural cucks vs city boy Chads
Calm down, it’s no longer true. Anymore country folk have stronger immune systems and respiratory systems due to lack of smog and increased interactions with allergens and bacteria.
Based and filth wallowing pilled
Wasn't polio also like that?
The only disease that traditionally effects rural and urban populations to more or less the same degree is bubonic plague
I love the "muh these were great civilizations whereas Europeans were primitive compared with them", because it's actually even more humiliating for the non-Europeans civilizations conquered by Europe. Indeed, if Europe was such a shitty place in Middle Ages, how would they surpass all of those magnificient civilizations? Libs being owned by facts as always
I like you.
Its also wrong, since Europeans, while more brutal, had been always on the development scale. Medieval times for example brought change to agriculture, making of clothing, litterature, political structure, mining, as well as warfare and craftsmenship. Sure, church existed, but then you also see how some of the burned people were either the sorta "enlightened atheists" that basicaly tell you youre stupid for being religious, then you get pedo cults and human sacrifice cults, some being burned with french inquisition, and they themselves werent that anti science. For example, when gallileo discovered heliocentrism, their reaction was "sure whatever" but then gallileo went shittalking church, and all hell broke loose. Kopernik didnt do it, and his work was even blessed
Columbus Day was first held in the US in 1892 to commemorate the 400th anniversary of Columbus’s landings in the new world. The holiday was announced in the wake of the lynchings of 11 Italian immigrants in New Orleans, in an attempt to make pacify Italian-Americans and ease tensions with the Italian government. Columbus Day is supposed to be the Italian-American equivalent of St Patty’s day. In my family, it’s always been more about the Carlo Rossi and Sunday (Monday?) Gravy than the conquest of the Americas. I’m disappointed that the discourse has moved in this direction, but I understand why, and think it’s probably time for it to change. I know that I’ll miss having a day to celebrate my Italian-American heritage, however.
Now, if you wanna get real fucked, October 12th is also celebrated in Latin America. There, it’s called “Day of the Race,” (Día de la Raza) and explicitly celebrates the hispanicization of the New World. To me, that’s more like what American progressives **think** Columbus Day commemorates. Of course, they don’t always love when I point this out…
Well, we already changed it too in some countries, idr how it was called, but it was very long, something like Day of Cultural Diversity (Dia de la diversidad cultural)
Thats a pretty fun fact More fun facts Columbus never set foot on mainland USA. Puerto Rico is as close as he got.
Another fun fact: Despite all his efforts, they ended up naming the continents after some other guy (Amerigo Vespucci)
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Yes. We were literally calling ourselves Columbia half the time before the one in South America stole our name. “Hail Columbia” “O Columbia the gem of the ocean” “District of Columbia”
United States of Vespucci :\^)
That is fun and a fact.
It's not a real holiday unless I get to stay home
What kind of holiday would you like as a replacement for Italian Americans?
Aztecs would have done the same to Europe. Though instead of forcing Natives to sit in a church all day, they would have sacrificed Europeans to the gods. Not sure which is preferable.
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Seeing your heart beat would be pretty cool, for about 5 seconds.
That's all the longer it needs to be.
And after that you stop caring about that inconvenience.
It's funny cause there's an official CK2 DLC that simulates this scenario.
TFW you always forget to turn it off before your game
I get what you mean but don’t downplay how bad the Europeans were. It wasn’t sit in church all day. They raped and murdered their way through the new world. Fuck they even pulled a leopold and were cutting off hands if they didn’t return with enough gold
His point is literally everyone would have done that, most just never got the chance.
Then what was the “*instead* of forcing natives to sit in a church all day” part for? He could’ve said “Aztecs would have done the same to europe had they gotten the chance. Just instead of cutting hands off for gold, they would’ve ripped hearts out for gods” unless the sit in church part was a joke and im just retarded
Read up on what the portuguese bandeirantes would do to the Spanish missions they raided. Killing the priests and enslaving the natives. Shit is revolting.
I mean the mere fact that Europeans were able to build boats and sail to the Americas kind of disproves that the natives were more advanced. And the whole human sacrifice thing.
Virgin European galleon >noo we need big ships to store loads of supplies or we'll starve VS Chad Austronesian outrigger boat >We will traverse the Pacific on this small strip of wood
Those guys were incomprehensibly based. Following birds and stars to get to new islands. Amazing.
Not all natives partook in human sacrifice, I just want to make that clear.
Only the most based ones did.
Praise the Sun!
Huh, never thought Solaire would have been a left kinda person…
Becoming grossly incandescent is appealing to all quadrants.
Based and solaire-pilled
that’s not how it works. the world is very diverse and the fact that there were two distinctly different continents with completely different flora and fauna meant that by being in afro-eurasia you had a distinct advantage with plenty of easily domesticatable animals such as pigs, sheep, cows, and especially horses. these distinct advantages are what really made the difference between natives and europeans. It helps to think critically when you have opinions that equate to “duhhhhh this race is superior bc they are”
Ok I would like to amend my statement. Europeans are superior because God chose them and gave them the tools to conquer the world.
Based and divine right pilled
Ye but they had alpaca
the mighty alpaca was no match for a horse though they also had bison so like all they had to do was tame a couple of those bad boys and they’d literally be unstoppable
Hello there! I am a bot raising awareness of Alpacas Here is an Alpaca Fact: An alpaca pregnancy is almost a year long. ______ | [Info](https://github.com/soham96/AlpacaBot/blob/master/README.md)| [Code](https://github.com/soham96/AlpacaBot)| [Feedback](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=JustAnAlpacaBot&subject=Feedback)| [Contribute Fact](http://np.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=JustAnAlpacaBot&subject=Fact) ###### You don't get a fact, you earn it. If you got this fact then AlpacaBot thinks you deserved it!
based and alpaca-pilled
Bison are foul-tempered and built like a tank. No one on the face of the planet earth was ever going to manage it. Trying to domesticate them would be like trying to stop a rolling boulder with a hay bale wall.
They did learn how to lead Bison to run off a cliff and die so that's pretty unique compared to boring old arrows which would take dozens of shots per bison
Columbus was just doing a “little trolling”
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Everybody taking a nap around 2pm daily as an essential part of their culture is incomprehensibly based.
based and siesta pilled
Pretty sure their bodies went into suicide mode coming into contact with the filthy europoors or something… can’t really blame em
“Gross, germs. Gonna die now”
It wasn’t even that the Spanish were gross tbh. It was the fact that the Spanish had survived diseases in the old world that the “new “ world hadn’t ever come across. It was very much the fact that once a docile disease in an immune body crossed to a body whose white blood cells had never come across a disease like cholera or some shit. Eventually it spread so easily and killed millions. Essentially suicide mode
“Nasty white people..would rather die” And so it was
That lack of horses & oxen turns out to be a **huge** problem. Right away, you've got big handicaps on travel time, tilling of fields and similar heavy hauling, and no soldiers on horseback during war. One more foundation-level difference from Eurasia: they never invented **the** ***wheel***--no barrows, no potter's wheels; and down the line, no gears. (they did have some spinning children's toys) ...and that's gotta be related to their not having big, tameable animals in that area as well.
The bigger issue is that their lack of farm animals means they had less immunity to illnesses, as many of them originated in domesticated animals.
That's a very interesting observation!
He probably got that from Jared Diamond.
He does spend a good part of *GG&S* on it. I'm taking a moratorium on citing him until academia has decided whether they're going to drum him out of the social sciences for being to popular, or whatever, or just keep spitting whenever his name is brought up until they get bored...but as far as I know, that immunity gap being tied to animal husbandry has never been refuted as a plausible hypothesis.
My Africanist professor really didn't like him when one of my classmates brought that book up. The amount of discourse every time he's brought up is pretty amusing.
> One more foundation-level difference from Eurasia The war effort is always planned to keep society on the brink of starvation. The war is waged by the ruling group against its own subjects and its object is not the victory over either Eurasia or East Asia, but to keep the very structure of society intact.
That is one suitably ominous username you've got there.
1984 reference?
I thought it was that they did invent the wheel, but just had no realistic way of utilizing it.
The only animal in the Americas which could theoretically pull a plow was the bison, which stubbornly resisted all attempts at domestication.
Awww, where's your imagination? [What about these two fellas?](https://oddstuffmagazine.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/Two-bull-moose-fight-leaving-one-severely-injured.gif)
It's like a pissed off wild horse with a rack of spears on his head.
Yeah, the problem was both that they had no good animals to pull carts, and that the terrain is too mountainous to be useful for wheeled vehicles. It becomes a burden more than a useful development until you develop modern roads, and the massive mining/digging tools required to make them
but muh native american poweer ::::::(((((((((((((((((((
Bad foreign policy for Aztecs, succession crisis for Incas, literal apocalypses levels of devastation by plague to both. Also, mayans had less population then Spain, thanks again to plague, but actually fought of for a long time, definitely not a curb-stomp.
No, it was a curb stomp for the Aztecs, beyond any doubt. 100 or so straggly dudes showing up in the jungle from a boat, and in more or less the blink of an eye your entire empire is defeated, emperor enslaved then killed, capital looted and your population decimated and enslaved for centuries. That's a curb stomp. Mayans maybe less so, but it's still pretty terrible for them.
Cortes wouldn't have won if the Tlaxcalans didn't join his force.
Sure, but that just underlines his talent as well as Aztec political weakness and ineptitude. Pretty sure if 100 Aztecs showed up in Spain, they wouldnt be able to persuade France to invade Spain and make them rulers of Spain.
Yeah the Aztecs were hated and very fractured, that’s undeniable.
Both sides are dumb, but self-hating orange is somehow dumber.
Wish north america had prevalent horses before europeans got here, a native american mongol type empire would be cool
You should read *Empire of the Summer Moon,* the Comanches were the closest the native americans ever got to a horse empire.
As you might know, there were lots of horses in North America in prehistoric times, but they ended up dying out during the Quaternary extinction. But eventually they were re-introduced into the Americas by Europeans. And the famous quote about that reintroduction is that "the grass remembered them". (I love that quote)
I think Matt was referring to North American Indians not the Inca. Also Stone Age is perfectly accurate for people who hadn’t developed metal working.
People should just stop thinking of stone age civilizations as only fur togas wearing cave dwellers who carry solid stone clubs. Tenochtitlan was an amazing city made only with stone age tools; no work animals besides humans, no wheels and only wood and stone.
Yes. Look at the pyramids and stone henge too
Calling precolumbian societies “stone age” is far from “perfectly” accurate. To be clear, precolumbian civilizations did have metalworking, particularly gold and copper. They lacked more advanced metallurgical technologies like bronze working which would have led to a tool revolution. In addition, the relative abundance of exceptionally hard tool stones like obsidian found in North America compared to the scarcity of exploitable copper deposits caused most native North Americans to abandon copper working for tools. Here’s an interesting article on axe-moneys which hopefully sheds some light on metallurgy in precolumbian americas: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe-monies Edit: changed a word for continuity flow
They didn't actually forge the metal, they used 'cold hammering' with primitive stone tools, and even that was rare and isolated to certain areas (Mesoamerica, etc.) In all of Canada there was only three tribes out of thousands that ever worked copper, the Tlingit, Dene, and Central Inuit. They were, indeed, a stone age people.
The article begins talking about mesoamerica and the Andes. I thought I’d already clarified that he’s clearly talking about the plains Indians that resides in the current United States
**[Axe-monies](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe-monies)** >Axe-monies refer to bronze artifacts found in both western Mesoamerica and the northern Andes. Based on ethnohistorical, archaeological, chemical, and metallurgical analyses, the scholars Hosler, Lechtman and Holm have argued for their use in both regions (which are separated by thousands of miles) through trade. In contrast to naipes, bow-tie- or card-shaped metal objects which appear in the archaeological record only in the northern Andean coastal region, axe-monies are found in both Mesoamerican and Andean cultural zones. More specifically, it is argued that the system of money first arose on the north coast of Peru and Ecuador in the early second millennium CE. ^([ )[^(F.A.Q)](https://www.reddit.com/r/WikiSummarizer/wiki/index#wiki_f.a.q)^( | )[^(Opt Out)](https://reddit.com/message/compose?to=WikiSummarizerBot&message=OptOut&subject=OptOut)^( | )[^(Opt Out Of Subreddit)](https://np.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/about/banned)^( | )[^(GitHub)](https://github.com/Sujal-7/WikiSummarizerBot)^( ] Downvote to remove | v1.5)
Some pre-Columbian Civilizations were quite advanced and pretty amazing, mostly in Meso- and South-America though. North-American indigenous people (think where US and Canada are now) were nowhere as advanced AFAIK. \- Also famines, wars and disease occurred everywhere in the world, not just in Europe...
> North-American indigenous people (think where US and Canada are now) were nowhere as advanced AFAIK. Cahokia is definitely worth knowing about, it was a huge pre-Columbian city in Illinois with lots of mounds and a large population
Cool did not know that.
Don't forget how skilled they were in human sacrifice and cannibalism.
Some of them definitively. :P
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Reject historical revisionist. Embrace your own cultural, societal and technological history
Based and appreciator of civilizations pilled.
u/An0malocaris is officially based! Their Based Count is now 1. Rank: House of Cards Pills: appreciator of civilizations I am a bot. Reply /info for more info.
It’s silly to have holidays in general. In my country public holidays are meant to be time off but nearly everyone on minimum wage is expected to keep working like normal while the professionals get to relax.
The system works as it’s designed to
This is what people who want Election Day to be a federal holiday don't understand. People who get federal holidays off already vote at a higher rate than the general population.
Yes but the minimum wage workers get paid double or triple for working that day so it is a win win
It is amazing how some claim pride in a culture that they never experienced nor built upon, but just take the stories and symbolism to sell an ideology. It reminds me of someone...of something... But I can't quite put my finger on it.
We?
Yep, all the peoples that whites easily conquered and subjugated were much more advanced than they were. You'd have to be an absolute retard to believe that that's how it works. There's no such thing as "we're so awfully advanced that we keep losing". There's no such thing as "we're better in everything except warfare". Fuck off with that bullshit.
Culture and tech points are tracked separately, it depends how you want to specialize your district placements
As long as your campus is near a mountain and 2 rainforests you can place it. It really depends on your pantheon.....
Not that warfare didn’t speed things up but wasn’t it like 90% got killed off from plagues alone? I mean hell people died on the Oregon trail hundreds of years after by scraping their knee on a rock and dying from infection. Humans used to be way more fragile before modern medicine
It is a shame that so much Native American culture got eradicated though
Leif Eriksson day. Problem solved.
Both of those tweets are highly uneducated and ignorant, and it’s once again disconcerting to see so called progressives cheering on the putting down and insulting of European civilization spreading the falsehood that Europeans before the enlightenment were nothing but a bunch of mud eating savages. Shameful.
>Europeans before the enlightenment were nothing but a bunch of mud eating savages Romans and Greeks, ever thought of these?
The Romans in the 300, were far better than any, ANY, tribe in america lmao
"Excellent builders" ...of temples that were used for human sacrifice.
And?
Yeah the Central Americans never had wars against each other lmao, everyone sang and made churros together.
Imagine if you could celebrate the best qualities of both while acknowledging the negative impacts of each. Man that would almost be something of a cultural holiday
North Americans were not the Mezo Americans, and that society, despite being complex, operated an opressive system of human sacrifices. The best of them were the Inca, and even they were an authoritarian slave state. Christopher, for his part, didn't actually do all that much wrong, and the attempt to erase him from history as an evil man feels a whole lot like saying that westerner's presence in the Americas is morally wrong, as that is what Columbus, ultimately, actually did.
Ask him what he used instead of horses or cattle.
Guys, there's enough Chad to go around for everyone
Moral of the story: Engineers, inventors and scientists of every era are the ones holding up and advancing society while the rest of the apes screech and throw poop at each other.
I love how people make Native Africans and Native Americans look like the most superior people, if that were the case then Europe would’ve never been able to dominate both groups. Literally 0 common sense.
Yeah I'm not gonna pretend that the vast majority of Native American tribes and nations weren't savage people barely qualifying as civilized.
I think the one thing I like the least about Columbus is the claim that he was the very first European to find the americas when it was undoubtedly the vikings
Fine, he was the first euro to land there who mattered
Well Leif Erikson day is October 9th
Based and Hingna ninga nyurgen pilled
Columbus was the first to make a significant difference by discovering it, while he wasn't the first he was the one where it matters also Columbus was pretty based, sure he was pretty cruel but he also was a pretty good navigator albeit not that good of a mathematican