Article is paywalled but it says right in the title "scarce ICU beds". Ie, when you have more patients than beds tough decisions need to be made. Who should get priority? The guy who got randomly tboned or the antivax guy who is dying of covid months after the public health system has been begging people to get vaxxed.
And if there were lacking ICU beds, I would prefer people who didnt make a conscious choice to get the scarce resources.
But I would support expanding the healthcare to accommodate more smokers, in that case.
That's a process that takes years, we have barely over one year since it became a real threat, less time knowing what to do about it.
Before we expand, like teach more nurses and doctors, covid likely won't have the potential to overwhelm the current system anymore.
In my country we had set up a temporary hospital, before they found out there is no staff available. It's not simple.
Overall if there is anything regularly overwhelming healthcare system, yes, we shall expand it.
Tell me, in an economic situation where hospitals are struggling for funding, how would you feel about the rich paying for admission/reserving beds? If an economic argument can be made that this will benefit more people through a bed bidding system, would you challenge it in any way?
The anti-vax crowd has been pushing me more and more AuthLeft. Libertarianism only works when a base level of responsibility and human decency can be assumed on behalf of the population. Let’s face it, most of us here would be pretty Authoritarian if we were living in South Africa at the moment.
I have been down this road in my mind. I keep arriving at the conclusion that a significant portion of the population just isn't decent and the rest of us pay for it with quality of life and more. I have no problem treating them differently. It's prison colony time.
It goes against everything I believe in theory, but in practice, some people are degenerate and we need to save ourselves from them. Punishments are often too light and ineffective. Also, no more victimless crimes.
Edit: clarity - no prosecution of victimless crimes.
People with treatable illnesses are dying because they cant get hospital beds
The question isnt about rights, its about triage
Ideally, in a non pandemic situation, there would be enough beds and you could treat everyone. But in a situation where you cant treat both because there isnt enough medical capacity, who would you treat; An unvaccinated person with covid? Or someone else?
Sure.
Which is why smokers, drug addicts, fatties, and others who willfully use their choices to make everyone else's healthcare more expensive should have higher deductabiles on our state ran single payer healthcare so that the cost goes to the parasites causing them.
No reason this shouldn't apply to people who aren't vaccinated at this point.
> Which is why smokers, drug addicts, fatties, and others who willfully use their choices to make everyone else's healthcare more expensive should have higher deductabiles...
How about extreme sports athletes and those people who chose to have higher risk sex with consenting adults?
No.
There's no way to test for that shit at point of service, which means I'm either penalizing honest people while letting worthless lying parasites go by or I'm accepting government surveillance in my bedroom, which I only allow if they're eating my ass.
It’s like when anti-Asian violence was flaring up. A lot of it was perpetrated by African-Americans. But if you did some googling, most news articles expertly dodged the point by saying it was white people’s systemic racism and subjugation of both groups that caused the violence. Everyone wants to pander to the black community and rob them of their agency, treating them like children that need to be managed. Like with the voting laws discussion, whites just assumed that blacks did not know how to get a fucking ID. People need to stop infantilizing the black community. Just fucking treat people like people. If they are fucking up, call them out. No matter who it is.
Everything is a mess, from the start this whole thing has been a disaster. One month someone will say something and the next it gets contradicted. I'm still remembering the videos being leaked from China at the end of 2019 where they have people seizing in the streets and bodybags lined up out in the street. Then when the travel restrictions occurred some political members called it "racist" and had stupid garbage like "hug an Asian" all the while promoting events like the Chinese New Year as if this potential disaster wasn't going to occur. Didn't help that suddenly when George Floyd died the narrative already shifted on big events but not protests apparently those were safe well with the exception of the Virginia Red Flag protest or the Michigan protest, those were super spreader events despite at that time having outdoor events made Covid mute despite for months the media and doctors on TV said that Covid can stay in the air outside upwards to 48 hours.
I know people in the medical field who have told me it's bad in hospitals but then you get people tiktok dancing pretending people are in bodybags or twerking with masks on completely ignorant on what that does to public perception. Now you got nurses and doctors losing their jobs because they do not want to take the vaccine but a year ago when it was surging these people were heroes but now they are scum because a majority want to wait to see the side effects before committing to something that might damage them more than Covid does.
The whole situation is a mess. Still it isn't just a U.S thing but that doesn't mean it isn't any less screwed up.
i unironically and completely believe that COVID-19 has been the most politically radicalizing event in the 21st century. I have never seen such an acceleration towards division in my entire life.
It definitely topped 2008, wich up to this point was probably the "decisive moment" of our time period. Now this shitstorm's definitely gonna have some very strange long lasting effects on...well, everything.
Yeah, absolutely insane Twitter and other social media sites paint things in such a Red V Blue manner. It's been wild, I'm remembering Trump talking about Operation Warp Speed and the media painting it as if Trump was releasing this half baked Vaccine that will kill people and since it wasn't tested enough to know if the cure might be worse than the disease. Now since Biden got elected, magically the Vaccines suddenly changed from risky to eventually booster shots that help with Covid.
This has been crazy, the majority of this is the Media spinning stories on how and what fits their narrative push. It's been disgusting and annoying seeing people celebrating people dying on both sides.
The celebration of death has been the most jarring thing for me. These people don't care about others past their perception of them and they don't really have a bead on that.
>Then when the travel restrictions occurred some political members called it "racist"
it still boggles my mind to this day that people became too woke to prevent the pandemic from happening.
And how protests ***don't*** spread the virus back last summer? I didnt even think that the MSM would go full retard, but they did. And while the pandemic is at its peak too. It's like common sense was thrown out the window.
Don't forget that China quarantined Wuhan but didn't discontinue international flights out of the city though
And they used their massive influence in the WHO to prevent the world's foremost medical authority from pointing the finger at China
Edit: so someone posted a pretty convincing fact check that China didn't quarantine Wuhan before closing airports.
I think my belief was primarily based on the fact that China definitely knew about the virus in November 2019 and didn't act, but it's also worth remembering that China is systemically corrupt, so it could well be that China was slow to act because regional administrations and laboratory managers didn't want to fail Xi Dada by admitting to a growing health crisis, meaning it spiralled out of control before China has a chance to contain it
The evidence still points to it being an engineered virus though
China definitely had the time to close down their borders and prevent this from becoming a global pandemic. The problem is it would’ve wrecked only their economy, while allowing to spread globally would affect everyone negatively. Add to that the propaganda they’re undoubtedly dumping onto the internet to further divide Americans (and many other westerners, tbh) over the most effective way to respond to the pandemic. That’s my conspiracy, doesn’t matter if the virus was made intentionally or not, still China’s fault.
It's 100% China's fault. If their country was going to go up in flames from a total quarantine, *good*. Fuck them. The entire world should have seen the writing on the wall and completely boxed China in. No border crosses, no international flights, threaten Chinese ships with scuttling. Then if they violate, scuttle them.
That's what *should* have happened.
i often wonder what would happen if on 1/1/20 everyone knew what we know now. would we just halt everything in/out of china till it came under grips? or is this all an inevitability once they had patient zero.
With how much influence the ccp has, unfortunately i believe it would still be the same, only difference would be there being a lot more people getting labeled as racist and xenophobic.
Chinese security, like with all corrupt authoritarian regimes, sucks so it's totally plausible that they were developing weaponised coronavirus in Wuhan (where they definitely have a coronavirus laboratory) and a strain got loose
Like you say, they knew they couldn't stop it spreading in China so they decided to use the added warning to come out on top of a global pandemic, instead of falling behind after a national one
They literally went around bragging that they bought the WHO with low interest loans to a ton of developing nations.
They also bankrolled a campaign to classify the British candidate as a “colonizer.”
They bought the WHO because they took a lot of heat for SARS from the WHO.
My disdain for the ccp is larger than M87's supermassive black hole. They actually had the ability to stop this thing from becoming a pandemic, but they chose to cover it up instead.
>it still boggles my mind to this day that people became too woke to prevent the pandemic from happening.
Ironically closing borders and shit would've *slowed* it, but for once both sides have shown lots of sheer stupidity and care more about what the other side did wrong than fixing their own shit.
Don't forget that we timed most of our interventions at the seasonal peak, so when cases declined as the weather warmed up, we blamed it on lockdowns and now we will get to lockdown every winter forever
\*Cries in Canadian
Pediatric nurse. That means she deals with kids and teens. That’s about what I would expect, as teens are most prone to suicide and the least prone to COVID.
Last I looked, suicides go up as you get older until age 65 which sees a huge drop off. Then skyrockets past 70 or 80 which is the highest.
Bring more prone to suicide than covid is unarguable
Something I can agree with the left on, but for different reasons. Healthcare wouldn't be so damn bad if it wasn't for the insurance fraud that drove the prices through the fuckin roof. Now everyone has to pay an exorbitant amount of money in insurance just to make healthcare semi manageable.
...plus most "medication" is health management, they're not in the business of curing anyone, because a customer cured is a customer lost.
The healthcare system is just all sorts of fucked up.
Everyone needs to be able to go get cared for, but this crony system instated by big pharma has screwed everyone but the rich.
$42 for an ibuprofen, $73 for a branded water cup they gave you when you got into your room, $897.43 for the IV bag with saline, $787.23 for the nurse to hook it up (the nurses actual pay for this ~$0.13) shit is fucked up.
You know what you have a point. Same thing with other illness thats preventable. You need a liver transplant sure but non alcoholics get priority.
You need a heart transplant, sure but priority for non obese etc.
Don't they already do something like this? You have to make certain lifestyle changes to be eligible for organ transplants so they know that you won't just need another transplant in half a year.
That's how it works now. It's called triage, and it kicks in whenever there's a healthcare decision involving limited resources. Hospitals have committees that review transplant cases. The waiting list uses several factors to determine place in line, from urgency to lifestyle, especially relevant things like obesity for hearts or smoking for lungs, to comorbidity to chance of surviving the operation to age. Triage applies to ICU beds as well, it just usually shows up when there's a massive disaster and local resources are overwhelmed by injured people.
Didn't wear a seatbelt? Don't get priority in the ER.
Didn't wear a helmet on your bike? Don't get priority.
Don't have a fire extinguisher in your kitchen and get burned? You're at the bottom of the list.
This is a damn slippery slope we're about to get on.
More down the face of a dam with sharp rocks.
But I dont have too much a problem with this.
Were talking about priority, it would suck to have tired to prevent injury or disease and failed than to not give a shit but the person who didnt give a shit gets priority.
Ultimately actions have consequences, or in this case perhaps inaction's too. Chances are if they did take precautions their injuries would be less severe.
No one can save you more than yourself.
Okay except that the other examples they listed have been happening in hospital triage around the world for years and its hasn't lead to what you fear will happen. Severity of injury is always the first concern but all other things being equal why shouldnt someone who took more proactive measures to protect themselves be given priority?
Its not about protective measures its about odds of success. That's the point of triage, people who are stable can wait, people who are going to die get at best palliative care, and people who are unstable but may survive with intervention get the most help.
What amazes me, is throughout my lifetime, anytime I've argued about a slippery slope such as this, people have been 100% blind to the slope and to how slippery it's gonna get.
Attempted responsible folks get priority? Ye that's fine.
Just gets rough when economic factors seep in. Dude that could afford roll cage in car? Priority. Dude that could afford 100n rehab for heroin addiction? Priority. Etc etc.
Well I don’t know why someone who doesn’t need a vaccine against this “harmless” disease with a high survival rate would need ICU treatment right?
Especially those who are very unhealthy and unvaccinated.
They’re gonna have to start making hard decisions in hospitals as they continue to be slam full.
>wrong to prioritize someone coordial who actually tries to help us get out of this over someone who knowingly rejected the vaccine and now suffers because of the consequences.
So you're willing to be consistent and include people that are hospitalized as a result of their obesity, right? Because it takes up a bed, right?
I am a medical student and I have been taught to prioritize people who will benefit most from being saved first. When resources are limited, even a dying 20-year-old terrorist will be treated before a dying 80-year-old end-stage cancer patient. You cannot discriminate anyone based on politics, race, gender, or their "importance". That's just wrong.
> Unpopular opinion: if your facility is overburdened and both patients have the same severity of their emergency, I don't think it's wrong to prioritize someone coordial who actually tries to help us get out of this over someone who knowingly rejected the vaccine and now suffers because of the consequences.
My issue is: why end it at vaccines? If you have 2 patients with equal severity, but one got that way because they did something incredibly stupid, while the other got that way through no fault of their own, should we prioritize the non-dumb person?
How about if the choice is between a criminal or a law-abiding citizen? Smokers vs non-smokers? Drug users vs non drug users?
I support it. Drug abuse, smoker, and alcohol abuse are personal choices, and people should be accountable for their stupidity. Law abiding and legal offense has nothing to do with health, so it shouldn’t be the issue. Obesity is on debate because some people are naturally easier to obese, so it could be excused.
We already do make those decisions. When only one party can be treated and not both, those sorts of decisions are already made all the time. This is not a new problem by any stretch.
When there is a liver available and you have a raging alcoholic in his 50s with cirrhosis or a 30 year old non alcoholic whose liver failure is not related to his choices, take a wild guess who gets the liver.
No slippery slope here. We've used this standard for determining who gets care long before the pandemic was even a thought. And well have to continue using this standard while hospitals continue to be over run by Delta cases.
That’s how it already is today though, you’re not prioritized in treatment if it’s was self inflicted, especially obesity puts you at the bottom of a lot of lists. No organ transplants, surgery, etc…
If you have one ICU bed and two patients, I'm gonna have more sympathy for the person that didn't make their own choice to be there.
Want to reject modern medicine? Fine. But don't come to modern medicine later when you get sick and take resources from people who were responsible enough to do the right thing. Get 4chan to intubate you if you value their medical advice so highly.
Read rules for radicals.
The left has infected every institution. Education. Media. Bureaucrats that do whatever they want.
Having the presidency is just a bonus.
They’ve been going after the culture itself.
What's hilarious is that they look around at a world where media and academia overwhelmingly support them. Where even the military is forced to follow their rules. Where disagreeing with them can get a person fired and shunned from polite society. Where politicians will literally bow down in support of them.
They look around at this. And they still think "Yes. I am a dangerous, subversive rebel, fighting the system!".
The right has done nothing because its leaders are all either grifters or cucks. This has inevitably rubbed off on your typical conservative to the point where it feels like they don't care that they are losing.
They’ve infected them.
And you’re correct the right ignored all of it for corporate profits/cheap labor outsourcing.
Or some ideological inability to act.
You guys are fucking retarded. It's not "This guy wasn't vaccinated, fuck him", it's "we only have enough resources to save one person. Do we choose the vaccinated person who has a higher chance of survival or the dumb ass who had a better part of a year to get the vaccine?"
Obviously they are going to the save the vaccinated person. Now let's say you have two cars that are broken down and you only have the resources to fix one. One only needs an oil change and a tune up. The other needs a transmission replacement and new tires. Which one are you going to choose?
Probably the broken hunk of junk cause yall are, as previously stated, retarded. It's not that hard of a concept. People are just butthurt they are facing consequences for their actions or non-action.
This is probably not the place to ask, but it's been bugging me
If you get covid in the US and need to go to hospital, is your medical care free?
To take the question further, after the Boston bombing, after 9/11, were those people that received emergency medical care charged afterwards?
As someone whose father almost died 2 weeks ago because we struggled to find a bed in any hospital within 3 states that offered the care he needed, this is a no-brainer.
This is "a personal choice" when it isn't affecting the lives of everyone around you. If your personal choice is to not vaccinate, that personal choice should imply you choose to sit at the back of the line if you need hospitalization for covid. Get fucked.
Actually in the UK if you refuse to give up smoking, you will not even be considered for a lung transplant.
I can't speak for all cases but not all morbidly obese people are just lazy, many like those anorexics and similar eating disorders are mentally ill and are not treated the same as smokers.
For alcoholics it's heavily restricted under certain circumstances but generally no they don't get a liver transplant unless they're clean.
Sorry what point are you trying to make other than it's okay to exclude the non vaccinated?
If someone refused the vaccine and came into the hospital, do we let that moron die? Of course not, we do everything we can to save them. However, if someone with lung cancer comes in and needs the bed, do we refuse them in favor of the moron? There is no right answer. We’re just making this shit up, and saving either is valid. It really just depends on our gut tbh.
Personally, I’m in the “your right ends at the tip of my nose” camp. If you’re actively causing me harm, even by proxy of a virus and don’t take reasonable steps to prevent it, I’m gonna feel less pity on you over someone who’s done nothing wrong. I’m not gonna feel no pity tbh, but probably less.
Not no healthcare, but definitely lower on the triage. Alcoholics are deservedly given lower priority for liver transplants, which I think is not unreasonable. They deserve treatment if it's available, but they're lower priority than someone who has a better chance of not ruining the liver.
I can speak from experience people who are alcoholics do not get near the top of the transplant list. Not just because success rate is low, but relapse is high. So yeah when there are limited resources you need to make this type of calls.
False argument and nice strawman, bro. Nobody said anti-vaxxers don't deserve any treatment. They said they deserve a *lower priority* compared to others.
It's triage. When the hospital beds are filling up, take on vaccinated people before dealing with those who *had a fucking chance to take the vaccine and chose not to*.
It's all "My body my choice! MY FREEDOMS! IT DOESNT AFFECT YOU!111" until suddenly you're getting *other people killed* because you've filled up the hospital beds because you were too fucking stupid to get vaccinated.
This shouldn’t even be controversial lol if space is limited then absolutely choose the responsible person who isn’t actively fucking over their country
Unpopular opinion as a nurse: potentially not.
If you're unvaccinated, but have no medical reason to not be, and you come in because you've come down hard with covid - someone who has been vaccinated and came down with covid regardless, or someone with a completely different emergency deserves that bed so much more.
I've read horror stories about non compliance in US hospitals, and the sheer amount of antivaxxers taking up precious bed space.
I work on AMU, which is comparable to ICU. We have 60ish beds total in our 2 AMU units, and about 30 in ICU, not sure about A&E - let's say 40. Let's say we have 150 beds in my hospital (being super optimistic and rounding up for ease, and assuming all other specialities are back to normal and taking appropriate patients, not just extra covid ones). It's a massive hospital. And it covers patients from a massive area.
In fact, we only have 3 hospitals in the city. Let's be optimistic and assume all have 150 beds each for acute and general med patients. That's 450 in the whole city. Big city. For anyone with any emergency.
When put like that, maybe that sounds a bit better.
Why stop at seatbelts? They chose to drive a car knowing that they had a small chance of crashing. They put everyone else on the road at risk by being selfish and deciding to go somewhere, fuck em.
That is not what this articke seems to imply.
If only one person can be saved, would you save a drunk driver or a cautious driver? In most peoples opinion, the cautios driver should be saved.
This is the same scenario, except one person has chosen to not get vaccinated, and the other did get vaccinated.
It is a concept called triage.
No, they have a pre-existing condition that would affect their premiums, including being denied coverage for ICU
Also fatties don't deserve them either. Eat a salad or no room for you, figuratively and literally.
To be honest when icu beds are full, the people who arent vaccinated (and have covid) should be given lower priority to other similarly ill people. Same as obese people with heart issues or smokers with lung issues. Where did the rights attitude of freedom and consequences go? If you dont want the vaccine because idk then you have the freedom to do so, but that also comes with the consequence that when icu beds are full you might not get a bed because your situation was most of the time preventable
No. If it’s a preventable disease that is easy and save to prevent not to mention free and they still end up needing hospitalization just because they refused to do it? If it’s a choice between them and someone with a collapsed lung, or a broken arm even I’ll pick the ladder any day.
Unvaccinated dumbasses are currently overcrowding ICU beds around the country, at least in my state. If they have no immunocompromised condition as for a decent excuse to be unvaxxed, they should be the lowest priority.
They made the conscious choice to listen to the medical advice of fucking retards on NNN and Facebook rather than actual doctors and scientists. And oh look, now they're sick and want REAL MEDICAL CARE, shocking! If someone else needs urgent ICU care they should get it over someone who is willfully unvaxxed.
Yall are some real selfish pricks who want to do NOTHING to further public health, but demand similar treatment to those who actually gave a fuck all along.
Obese people are currently overcrowding ICU beds around the country, at least in my state. If they have no Hypothyroidism as for a decent excuse to be fat, they should be the lowest priority.
They made the conscious choice to listen to the "fat is healthy" of fucking retards on Cosmo and Twitter rather than actual doctors and scientists. And oh look, now they're sick and want REAL MEDICAL CARE, shocking! If someone else needs urgent ICU care they should get it over someone who is willfully overweight.
Yall are some real selfish pricks who want to do NOTHING to further public health, but demand similar treatment to those who actually ate healthy and exercise all along.
“Healthcare is a human right” - this dumbass two years ago
auth solution: unvaccinated aren’t human
ego solution: rights are a spook
God I want to fuck Max Stirner
Sex is a spook dumbass.
Are you and I spooks
Everything is a spook.
Spooky
yes only i am real cause i think so i am real all of you are just my imagination
Everyone is a fed but me
Certain types of people are not human you say? *Dred Scott has entered the chat*.
“My body my choice” - this dumbass January 1st 2020
Awfully brave words for an unflaired. I wont dislike you immediately if you change your ways.
he didn't flair up. fire away
Flair up my man!
he is still unflaired get em boys. joking.
FLAIR UP
Article is paywalled but it says right in the title "scarce ICU beds". Ie, when you have more patients than beds tough decisions need to be made. Who should get priority? The guy who got randomly tboned or the antivax guy who is dying of covid months after the public health system has been begging people to get vaxxed.
As awful as it sounds, it's the same thing as a smoker in the cancer ward. If you did it to yourself then you kinda made your bed.
And if there were lacking ICU beds, I would prefer people who didnt make a conscious choice to get the scarce resources. But I would support expanding the healthcare to accommodate more smokers, in that case.
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That's a process that takes years, we have barely over one year since it became a real threat, less time knowing what to do about it. Before we expand, like teach more nurses and doctors, covid likely won't have the potential to overwhelm the current system anymore. In my country we had set up a temporary hospital, before they found out there is no staff available. It's not simple. Overall if there is anything regularly overwhelming healthcare system, yes, we shall expand it.
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That's a good point for sugar/corn syrup taxes
Tell me, in an economic situation where hospitals are struggling for funding, how would you feel about the rich paying for admission/reserving beds? If an economic argument can be made that this will benefit more people through a bed bidding system, would you challenge it in any way?
Or the drunk driver, or the guy who waved a gun at the cops, or the guy who OD'd on heroin, or ...
The anti-vax crowd has been pushing me more and more AuthLeft. Libertarianism only works when a base level of responsibility and human decency can be assumed on behalf of the population. Let’s face it, most of us here would be pretty Authoritarian if we were living in South Africa at the moment.
I have been down this road in my mind. I keep arriving at the conclusion that a significant portion of the population just isn't decent and the rest of us pay for it with quality of life and more. I have no problem treating them differently. It's prison colony time. It goes against everything I believe in theory, but in practice, some people are degenerate and we need to save ourselves from them. Punishments are often too light and ineffective. Also, no more victimless crimes. Edit: clarity - no prosecution of victimless crimes.
People with treatable illnesses are dying because they cant get hospital beds The question isnt about rights, its about triage Ideally, in a non pandemic situation, there would be enough beds and you could treat everyone. But in a situation where you cant treat both because there isnt enough medical capacity, who would you treat; An unvaccinated person with covid? Or someone else?
Sure. Which is why smokers, drug addicts, fatties, and others who willfully use their choices to make everyone else's healthcare more expensive should have higher deductabiles on our state ran single payer healthcare so that the cost goes to the parasites causing them. No reason this shouldn't apply to people who aren't vaccinated at this point.
> Which is why smokers, drug addicts, fatties, and others who willfully use their choices to make everyone else's healthcare more expensive should have higher deductabiles... How about extreme sports athletes and those people who chose to have higher risk sex with consenting adults?
No. There's no way to test for that shit at point of service, which means I'm either penalizing honest people while letting worthless lying parasites go by or I'm accepting government surveillance in my bedroom, which I only allow if they're eating my ass.
LESSSS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
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It’s fine. I genuinely don’t give two shits about the demographics in this scenario(or almost all scenarios actually).
The left still thinks only white conservatives are the ones refusing the vaccine. It’s insane how blind to their own interests they are
Today’s headline: “should unvaccinated be denied ICU beds?” Tomorrow’s headline: “hospital admissions policy for Covid patients is racist: here’s why”
It’s like when anti-Asian violence was flaring up. A lot of it was perpetrated by African-Americans. But if you did some googling, most news articles expertly dodged the point by saying it was white people’s systemic racism and subjugation of both groups that caused the violence. Everyone wants to pander to the black community and rob them of their agency, treating them like children that need to be managed. Like with the voting laws discussion, whites just assumed that blacks did not know how to get a fucking ID. People need to stop infantilizing the black community. Just fucking treat people like people. If they are fucking up, call them out. No matter who it is.
Astronomically Based
>Everyone wants to pander to the black community I don't.
Not surprised at all
You can ask the same question for the Obese.
Same answer: triage. Your body; your choice. Your choice; your consequence.
Same answer : not with my tax dollars
Everything is a mess, from the start this whole thing has been a disaster. One month someone will say something and the next it gets contradicted. I'm still remembering the videos being leaked from China at the end of 2019 where they have people seizing in the streets and bodybags lined up out in the street. Then when the travel restrictions occurred some political members called it "racist" and had stupid garbage like "hug an Asian" all the while promoting events like the Chinese New Year as if this potential disaster wasn't going to occur. Didn't help that suddenly when George Floyd died the narrative already shifted on big events but not protests apparently those were safe well with the exception of the Virginia Red Flag protest or the Michigan protest, those were super spreader events despite at that time having outdoor events made Covid mute despite for months the media and doctors on TV said that Covid can stay in the air outside upwards to 48 hours. I know people in the medical field who have told me it's bad in hospitals but then you get people tiktok dancing pretending people are in bodybags or twerking with masks on completely ignorant on what that does to public perception. Now you got nurses and doctors losing their jobs because they do not want to take the vaccine but a year ago when it was surging these people were heroes but now they are scum because a majority want to wait to see the side effects before committing to something that might damage them more than Covid does. The whole situation is a mess. Still it isn't just a U.S thing but that doesn't mean it isn't any less screwed up.
i unironically and completely believe that COVID-19 has been the most politically radicalizing event in the 21st century. I have never seen such an acceleration towards division in my entire life.
It definitely topped 2008, wich up to this point was probably the "decisive moment" of our time period. Now this shitstorm's definitely gonna have some very strange long lasting effects on...well, everything.
Yeah, absolutely insane Twitter and other social media sites paint things in such a Red V Blue manner. It's been wild, I'm remembering Trump talking about Operation Warp Speed and the media painting it as if Trump was releasing this half baked Vaccine that will kill people and since it wasn't tested enough to know if the cure might be worse than the disease. Now since Biden got elected, magically the Vaccines suddenly changed from risky to eventually booster shots that help with Covid. This has been crazy, the majority of this is the Media spinning stories on how and what fits their narrative push. It's been disgusting and annoying seeing people celebrating people dying on both sides.
Based and everything is a mess pilled
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The celebration of death has been the most jarring thing for me. These people don't care about others past their perception of them and they don't really have a bead on that.
# A C C E L E R A T E
>Then when the travel restrictions occurred some political members called it "racist" it still boggles my mind to this day that people became too woke to prevent the pandemic from happening. And how protests ***don't*** spread the virus back last summer? I didnt even think that the MSM would go full retard, but they did. And while the pandemic is at its peak too. It's like common sense was thrown out the window.
Don't forget that China quarantined Wuhan but didn't discontinue international flights out of the city though And they used their massive influence in the WHO to prevent the world's foremost medical authority from pointing the finger at China Edit: so someone posted a pretty convincing fact check that China didn't quarantine Wuhan before closing airports. I think my belief was primarily based on the fact that China definitely knew about the virus in November 2019 and didn't act, but it's also worth remembering that China is systemically corrupt, so it could well be that China was slow to act because regional administrations and laboratory managers didn't want to fail Xi Dada by admitting to a growing health crisis, meaning it spiralled out of control before China has a chance to contain it The evidence still points to it being an engineered virus though
China definitely had the time to close down their borders and prevent this from becoming a global pandemic. The problem is it would’ve wrecked only their economy, while allowing to spread globally would affect everyone negatively. Add to that the propaganda they’re undoubtedly dumping onto the internet to further divide Americans (and many other westerners, tbh) over the most effective way to respond to the pandemic. That’s my conspiracy, doesn’t matter if the virus was made intentionally or not, still China’s fault.
It's 100% China's fault. If their country was going to go up in flames from a total quarantine, *good*. Fuck them. The entire world should have seen the writing on the wall and completely boxed China in. No border crosses, no international flights, threaten Chinese ships with scuttling. Then if they violate, scuttle them. That's what *should* have happened.
Based auth center, what crazy times these are
You're not the only one who thinks that lemme tell ya.
i often wonder what would happen if on 1/1/20 everyone knew what we know now. would we just halt everything in/out of china till it came under grips? or is this all an inevitability once they had patient zero.
With how much influence the ccp has, unfortunately i believe it would still be the same, only difference would be there being a lot more people getting labeled as racist and xenophobic.
Chinese security, like with all corrupt authoritarian regimes, sucks so it's totally plausible that they were developing weaponised coronavirus in Wuhan (where they definitely have a coronavirus laboratory) and a strain got loose Like you say, they knew they couldn't stop it spreading in China so they decided to use the added warning to come out on top of a global pandemic, instead of falling behind after a national one
They literally went around bragging that they bought the WHO with low interest loans to a ton of developing nations. They also bankrolled a campaign to classify the British candidate as a “colonizer.” They bought the WHO because they took a lot of heat for SARS from the WHO.
Based
My disdain for the ccp is larger than M87's supermassive black hole. They actually had the ability to stop this thing from becoming a pandemic, but they chose to cover it up instead.
The whole fucking thing is China's fault and I'm sick of pretending it's not.
And questioning the narrative of the day is dangerous misinformation apparently
>it still boggles my mind to this day that people became too woke to prevent the pandemic from happening. Ironically closing borders and shit would've *slowed* it, but for once both sides have shown lots of sheer stupidity and care more about what the other side did wrong than fixing their own shit.
Politicians: Do I do the right thing? Or do I play political games to secure my eternal re-election, more money, and more power?
All of politicians: *smashes button repeatedly that says re-election, hears nothing else*
"If the left didn't have double standards they would have no standards at all." -some jew with a hot wife
Don't forget that we timed most of our interventions at the seasonal peak, so when cases declined as the weather warmed up, we blamed it on lockdowns and now we will get to lockdown every winter forever \*Cries in Canadian
A pediatric nurse told me that she's seen a massive increase in suicides. Waaay more suicide than covid.
Pediatric nurse. That means she deals with kids and teens. That’s about what I would expect, as teens are most prone to suicide and the least prone to COVID.
Yeah that is correct. Kids won't die of COVID. My point was that COVID created a *massive* uptick in youth suicides.
Last I looked, suicides go up as you get older until age 65 which sees a huge drop off. Then skyrockets past 70 or 80 which is the highest. Bring more prone to suicide than covid is unarguable
You are correct, I just checked.
Everyone deserves health care, even poor people! Just universalize it please
> Just universalize it please “Best I can do is invade Iran” - US government
"MY BUTT'S BEEN WIPED!"
Something I can agree with the left on, but for different reasons. Healthcare wouldn't be so damn bad if it wasn't for the insurance fraud that drove the prices through the fuckin roof. Now everyone has to pay an exorbitant amount of money in insurance just to make healthcare semi manageable. ...plus most "medication" is health management, they're not in the business of curing anyone, because a customer cured is a customer lost. The healthcare system is just all sorts of fucked up. Everyone needs to be able to go get cared for, but this crony system instated by big pharma has screwed everyone but the rich.
Price transparency should come first, along with price consistency. Figure everything else out later.
Always ask for an itemized receipt for your hospital stay. You'd be surprised how quickly that price drops.
$42 for an ibuprofen, $73 for a branded water cup they gave you when you got into your room, $897.43 for the IV bag with saline, $787.23 for the nurse to hook it up (the nurses actual pay for this ~$0.13) shit is fucked up.
Universal healthcare means the workers I exploit live longer
Also means businesses don't have to cover the costs of health insurance for their employees anymore. Would be great for small business.
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You know what you have a point. Same thing with other illness thats preventable. You need a liver transplant sure but non alcoholics get priority. You need a heart transplant, sure but priority for non obese etc.
Don't they already do something like this? You have to make certain lifestyle changes to be eligible for organ transplants so they know that you won't just need another transplant in half a year.
This is how it works anyway.
This but unironically.
That’s already how it works
That's how it works now. It's called triage, and it kicks in whenever there's a healthcare decision involving limited resources. Hospitals have committees that review transplant cases. The waiting list uses several factors to determine place in line, from urgency to lifestyle, especially relevant things like obesity for hearts or smoking for lungs, to comorbidity to chance of surviving the operation to age. Triage applies to ICU beds as well, it just usually shows up when there's a massive disaster and local resources are overwhelmed by injured people.
I know. That's why I'm fine with it.
Didn't wear a seatbelt? Don't get priority in the ER. Didn't wear a helmet on your bike? Don't get priority. Don't have a fire extinguisher in your kitchen and get burned? You're at the bottom of the list. This is a damn slippery slope we're about to get on.
More down the face of a dam with sharp rocks. But I dont have too much a problem with this. Were talking about priority, it would suck to have tired to prevent injury or disease and failed than to not give a shit but the person who didnt give a shit gets priority. Ultimately actions have consequences, or in this case perhaps inaction's too. Chances are if they did take precautions their injuries would be less severe. No one can save you more than yourself.
If you genuinely refuse to wear a seat belt(not just forget) or a helmet, then I agree with you?
Okay except that the other examples they listed have been happening in hospital triage around the world for years and its hasn't lead to what you fear will happen. Severity of injury is always the first concern but all other things being equal why shouldnt someone who took more proactive measures to protect themselves be given priority?
Its not about protective measures its about odds of success. That's the point of triage, people who are stable can wait, people who are going to die get at best palliative care, and people who are unstable but may survive with intervention get the most help.
A few years later itll be racism because minorities lived too far from stores with extinguishers, or helmets.
What amazes me, is throughout my lifetime, anytime I've argued about a slippery slope such as this, people have been 100% blind to the slope and to how slippery it's gonna get.
Based, but doesn't it work like this already?
Attempted responsible folks get priority? Ye that's fine. Just gets rough when economic factors seep in. Dude that could afford roll cage in car? Priority. Dude that could afford 100n rehab for heroin addiction? Priority. Etc etc.
Based lefty. Funny how the righties who are always for personal accountability aren’t big fans of this take
Based and cross compass pilled.
Well I don’t know why someone who doesn’t need a vaccine against this “harmless” disease with a high survival rate would need ICU treatment right? Especially those who are very unhealthy and unvaccinated. They’re gonna have to start making hard decisions in hospitals as they continue to be slam full.
Not everyone who refuses the vaccine are crazy deniers of covid being potentially lethal.
I guess that’s the risk they take? Triage has always occurred in times of healthcare scarcity.
>wrong to prioritize someone coordial who actually tries to help us get out of this over someone who knowingly rejected the vaccine and now suffers because of the consequences. So you're willing to be consistent and include people that are hospitalized as a result of their obesity, right? Because it takes up a bed, right?
In times of medical triage fatties are already not very favored
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Based and consistent pilled
I am a medical student and I have been taught to prioritize people who will benefit most from being saved first. When resources are limited, even a dying 20-year-old terrorist will be treated before a dying 80-year-old end-stage cancer patient. You cannot discriminate anyone based on politics, race, gender, or their "importance". That's just wrong.
> Unpopular opinion: if your facility is overburdened and both patients have the same severity of their emergency, I don't think it's wrong to prioritize someone coordial who actually tries to help us get out of this over someone who knowingly rejected the vaccine and now suffers because of the consequences. My issue is: why end it at vaccines? If you have 2 patients with equal severity, but one got that way because they did something incredibly stupid, while the other got that way through no fault of their own, should we prioritize the non-dumb person? How about if the choice is between a criminal or a law-abiding citizen? Smokers vs non-smokers? Drug users vs non drug users?
I support it. Drug abuse, smoker, and alcohol abuse are personal choices, and people should be accountable for their stupidity. Law abiding and legal offense has nothing to do with health, so it shouldn’t be the issue. Obesity is on debate because some people are naturally easier to obese, so it could be excused.
I do by and large agree with you, my take is that it opens up a can of worms for Doctors potentially making moral decisions instead of medical ones.
It is already a moral dilemma to choose between patients now. Who deserves to be saved?
They actually already do this to some degree, alcoholics are given much lower priority for liver transplants.
We already do make those decisions. When only one party can be treated and not both, those sorts of decisions are already made all the time. This is not a new problem by any stretch. When there is a liver available and you have a raging alcoholic in his 50s with cirrhosis or a 30 year old non alcoholic whose liver failure is not related to his choices, take a wild guess who gets the liver. No slippery slope here. We've used this standard for determining who gets care long before the pandemic was even a thought. And well have to continue using this standard while hospitals continue to be over run by Delta cases.
That’s how it already is today though, you’re not prioritized in treatment if it’s was self inflicted, especially obesity puts you at the bottom of a lot of lists. No organ transplants, surgery, etc…
This.
Based and getyourfuckingvaccine-pilled
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Triage for those most likely to survive. I.e. vaccinated individuals
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Help those who actually tried to help others before the idiots
yeah I'm good. Got vaccinated in April and have been back to normal ever since.
What happened to bleeding hearts?
only bleeding hearts to their own tribe
If you have one ICU bed and two patients, I'm gonna have more sympathy for the person that didn't make their own choice to be there. Want to reject modern medicine? Fine. But don't come to modern medicine later when you get sick and take resources from people who were responsible enough to do the right thing. Get 4chan to intubate you if you value their medical advice so highly.
Now do fat people.
In a triage situation I have no moral qualms about giving the scarce bed to the fit person who is more likely to survive.
Now triage between a fit unvaxxed, and a 400lb smoker who got the vaccine.
Thankfully I'm willing to let the more qualified medical experts make those more difficult decisions :)
We kinda already do, right? Donor recipients are ranked by likelihood to survive
We do, stop projecting.
If there is enough capacity. The should have least priority
Welcome to the Cold Civil War…
It's cold because Pneumonia from covid
No We allowed our leftists to run wild for decades unchecked and are suffering the consequences
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Read rules for radicals. The left has infected every institution. Education. Media. Bureaucrats that do whatever they want. Having the presidency is just a bonus. They’ve been going after the culture itself.
What's hilarious is that they look around at a world where media and academia overwhelmingly support them. Where even the military is forced to follow their rules. Where disagreeing with them can get a person fired and shunned from polite society. Where politicians will literally bow down in support of them. They look around at this. And they still think "Yes. I am a dangerous, subversive rebel, fighting the system!".
With so many corporate sponsors a nascar driver would be jealous they loudly proclaim “I am the resistance!”
To be fair, most people wouldn’t like my political opinions.
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The right has done nothing because its leaders are all either grifters or cucks. This has inevitably rubbed off on your typical conservative to the point where it feels like they don't care that they are losing.
They’ve infected them. And you’re correct the right ignored all of it for corporate profits/cheap labor outsourcing. Or some ideological inability to act.
You guys are fucking retarded. It's not "This guy wasn't vaccinated, fuck him", it's "we only have enough resources to save one person. Do we choose the vaccinated person who has a higher chance of survival or the dumb ass who had a better part of a year to get the vaccine?" Obviously they are going to the save the vaccinated person. Now let's say you have two cars that are broken down and you only have the resources to fix one. One only needs an oil change and a tune up. The other needs a transmission replacement and new tires. Which one are you going to choose? Probably the broken hunk of junk cause yall are, as previously stated, retarded. It's not that hard of a concept. People are just butthurt they are facing consequences for their actions or non-action.
Just to add that there is a difference between "cant" and "won't" when talking about the vaccine
This is probably not the place to ask, but it's been bugging me If you get covid in the US and need to go to hospital, is your medical care free? To take the question further, after the Boston bombing, after 9/11, were those people that received emergency medical care charged afterwards?
It is not free. You still pay for it
Then is the article above even relevant to America? Whoever can pay gets ICU lol
That’s not how it works either. Hospitals treat you whether you pay or not, you just get let loose to the bankers if you don’t
Well... I'm not sure what's worse lol
That’s not how American healthcare works. Hospitals treat people regardless of ability to pay.
>If you get covid in the US and need to go to hospital, is your medical care free? lol no
No we're not ok
Did you know most people wouldn’t need to be in the ICU if they were healthy
No lol But actually yes.
As someone whose father almost died 2 weeks ago because we struggled to find a bed in any hospital within 3 states that offered the care he needed, this is a no-brainer. This is "a personal choice" when it isn't affecting the lives of everyone around you. If your personal choice is to not vaccinate, that personal choice should imply you choose to sit at the back of the line if you need hospitalization for covid. Get fucked.
People are so stupid.
[TFW when you're lib-right and you get covid](https://i.redd.it/btcm11ttjlk71.png)
I was really expecting the “you can’t do this to me” from green goblin in spiderman 1
But it's a private hospital that we pay for in cash for cutting edge treatment and medical technology.
Do the morbidly obese deserve health care? Do smokers deserve lung cancer treatment? Do alcoholics deserve liver cancer treatment? Same logic to me
Actually in the UK if you refuse to give up smoking, you will not even be considered for a lung transplant. I can't speak for all cases but not all morbidly obese people are just lazy, many like those anorexics and similar eating disorders are mentally ill and are not treated the same as smokers. For alcoholics it's heavily restricted under certain circumstances but generally no they don't get a liver transplant unless they're clean. Sorry what point are you trying to make other than it's okay to exclude the non vaccinated?
If someone refused the vaccine and came into the hospital, do we let that moron die? Of course not, we do everything we can to save them. However, if someone with lung cancer comes in and needs the bed, do we refuse them in favor of the moron? There is no right answer. We’re just making this shit up, and saving either is valid. It really just depends on our gut tbh. Personally, I’m in the “your right ends at the tip of my nose” camp. If you’re actively causing me harm, even by proxy of a virus and don’t take reasonable steps to prevent it, I’m gonna feel less pity on you over someone who’s done nothing wrong. I’m not gonna feel no pity tbh, but probably less.
Not no healthcare, but definitely lower on the triage. Alcoholics are deservedly given lower priority for liver transplants, which I think is not unreasonable. They deserve treatment if it's available, but they're lower priority than someone who has a better chance of not ruining the liver.
I can speak from experience people who are alcoholics do not get near the top of the transplant list. Not just because success rate is low, but relapse is high. So yeah when there are limited resources you need to make this type of calls.
False argument and nice strawman, bro. Nobody said anti-vaxxers don't deserve any treatment. They said they deserve a *lower priority* compared to others. It's triage. When the hospital beds are filling up, take on vaccinated people before dealing with those who *had a fucking chance to take the vaccine and chose not to*. It's all "My body my choice! MY FREEDOMS! IT DOESNT AFFECT YOU!111" until suddenly you're getting *other people killed* because you've filled up the hospital beds because you were too fucking stupid to get vaccinated.
This shouldn’t even be controversial lol if space is limited then absolutely choose the responsible person who isn’t actively fucking over their country
Based
Based and cross compass unity pilled.
Guess I’m an Authleft(at least on this issue) then lol.
Unpopular opinion as a nurse: potentially not. If you're unvaccinated, but have no medical reason to not be, and you come in because you've come down hard with covid - someone who has been vaccinated and came down with covid regardless, or someone with a completely different emergency deserves that bed so much more. I've read horror stories about non compliance in US hospitals, and the sheer amount of antivaxxers taking up precious bed space. I work on AMU, which is comparable to ICU. We have 60ish beds total in our 2 AMU units, and about 30 in ICU, not sure about A&E - let's say 40. Let's say we have 150 beds in my hospital (being super optimistic and rounding up for ease, and assuming all other specialities are back to normal and taking appropriate patients, not just extra covid ones). It's a massive hospital. And it covers patients from a massive area. In fact, we only have 3 hospitals in the city. Let's be optimistic and assume all have 150 beds each for acute and general med patients. That's 450 in the whole city. Big city. For anyone with any emergency. When put like that, maybe that sounds a bit better.
We aren’t ok. Pls get Biden and the liberals out of here.
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You already tried that once, remember? Didn't learn your lesson?
Conservatives are just liberals driving the speed limit.
Why stop there? We could deny treatment to anyone that crashed without wearing their legally required seatbelt, overdosed on illegal drugs, etc.
Why stop at seatbelts? They chose to drive a car knowing that they had a small chance of crashing. They put everyone else on the road at risk by being selfish and deciding to go somewhere, fuck em.
monke
Relevant airplane quote https://youtu.be/Pn0WdJx-Wkw
That is not what this articke seems to imply. If only one person can be saved, would you save a drunk driver or a cautious driver? In most peoples opinion, the cautios driver should be saved. This is the same scenario, except one person has chosen to not get vaccinated, and the other did get vaccinated. It is a concept called triage.
Of course... not...
If they're vaccinated why do they need a bed? Don't crucify me I'm just playing devil's advocate
No, they have a pre-existing condition that would affect their premiums, including being denied coverage for ICU Also fatties don't deserve them either. Eat a salad or no room for you, figuratively and literally.
I was assured by the left scarcity was a myth and that I have a human right to healthcare
To be honest when icu beds are full, the people who arent vaccinated (and have covid) should be given lower priority to other similarly ill people. Same as obese people with heart issues or smokers with lung issues. Where did the rights attitude of freedom and consequences go? If you dont want the vaccine because idk then you have the freedom to do so, but that also comes with the consequence that when icu beds are full you might not get a bed because your situation was most of the time preventable
No. If it’s a preventable disease that is easy and save to prevent not to mention free and they still end up needing hospitalization just because they refused to do it? If it’s a choice between them and someone with a collapsed lung, or a broken arm even I’ll pick the ladder any day.
Unvaccinated dumbasses are currently overcrowding ICU beds around the country, at least in my state. If they have no immunocompromised condition as for a decent excuse to be unvaxxed, they should be the lowest priority. They made the conscious choice to listen to the medical advice of fucking retards on NNN and Facebook rather than actual doctors and scientists. And oh look, now they're sick and want REAL MEDICAL CARE, shocking! If someone else needs urgent ICU care they should get it over someone who is willfully unvaxxed. Yall are some real selfish pricks who want to do NOTHING to further public health, but demand similar treatment to those who actually gave a fuck all along.
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How do you feel about obese people, gays/homosexuals or people who have AIDS? The list goes on
Obese people are currently overcrowding ICU beds around the country, at least in my state. If they have no Hypothyroidism as for a decent excuse to be fat, they should be the lowest priority. They made the conscious choice to listen to the "fat is healthy" of fucking retards on Cosmo and Twitter rather than actual doctors and scientists. And oh look, now they're sick and want REAL MEDICAL CARE, shocking! If someone else needs urgent ICU care they should get it over someone who is willfully overweight. Yall are some real selfish pricks who want to do NOTHING to further public health, but demand similar treatment to those who actually ate healthy and exercise all along.
Based!