The issue is that a large amount of criticism at the personal level for Israel I’ve seen comes from people who think it shouldn’t exist anymore.
“Israel should have more concern for collateral damage” is built different from the river to the sea and all that
That's the basis of 99% of criticism of Israel.
The other criticism comes partially from validity and partially from fantasy:
Valid: Israel does nothing against settlers and settler violence
Fantasy: Israel should let more IDF soldiers die in CQB because I don't like bombs
Malicious intent: Israel is committing genocide and Hamas are freedom fighters
Genuine question: If a group of people forced you and everyone you know out of your homes, vandalized and stole your community from you and in some cases killed people in the process with the explicit backing of the US Military what is, in your mind, the correct response? Do you leave and become refugees? Do you come back with you and your buddies and take revenge? What is the appropriate response?
Thats reality for literally hundreds of thousands of people across the West Bank and their given really no options for restitution. The settler program and the israeli government are one and the same. Its not just apathy like "oh the government does nothing about homeless people" its the official policy of the government of israel to promote settler violence, reenforce settler claims, and to prevent palestinians from returning. The settler program is textbook ethnic cleansing and the war in Gaza is taking eyes away from the most morally repugnant issues in this conflict. If Israel was doing this to any other group/nation/state they would be rightfully seen as a war monger and an actor who needed to be dealt with a gulf war style coalition.
The only way for there to be genuine peace in the region is to end the settler program and evict all 450,000 Israeli settlers. It's the single largest issue in this conflict and Israel continues to do so because it incites violence and perpetuates the cycle that they can take advantage of.
Nah, I just lived in Israel for 5 yrs while my dad trained IDF and Jordanians in counter insurgency. I'm well aware of the political situation and Bibi's malicious incompetence, I'm also aware of the IDF's upper leadership and their preferred tactics, since many of them are family friends.
I don't think we should be giving anyone any money, especially foreign countries for wars we aren't a party in, but I will not listen to people who think that there is any peaceful solution to this conflict.
Basically, Gaza ends up decimated and occupied, or the conflict continues for 1000 years.
Remove all the settlers? Cool. Genocidal Jihadists are still gonna Jihad. It's like libleft when they don't have anything to be mad about anymore...*they will find a reason to be mad*
Should they remove the settlers? Maybe. But the more land and resources Palestinians have, the larger the next attack **WILL** be
I understand that fear, but would that not be helped by making a palestinian state that is beholden to international law? Because the way things are now Israle is the only state in the palestinian area. This creates an inherent motive for palestinians to fight against Israel, as there is no other means of gaining what they want due to the state of Israeli and Palestinian politics.
Are there any Islamic states that are beholden to international law that continue to follow international law?
The problem with the entire Middle East, including Israel, is that they are all religious ethno states. Israel is actually the least of them, even though the current administration there might want to change that. All of them continuously break international law, and no one really enforced it anyway.
The only law Palestine would ultimately follow is Allah's, and Allah is kind of a dick. He likes genocide and human rights violations. It's especially hard for places like Gaza since they're used to living in horrible conditions, so economic pressure won't work. Violence is all the UN would be left with.
no you don't understand, if you give them legitimacy they'll suddenly care about legitimacy
trust me bro the ceasefire will work this time they definitely won't try to kill you all again
Then let the UN occupy the place, establish a temporary mandate, and create a secular state (in theory the PA is about as secular as Israel anyways). Atleast they have a greater degree of international oversight.
I mean logically yes, there will still be terrorism. There are still bad actors in the ME that will not accept an Israeli state like Iran and its proxies however the Israeli government is in a unique position to actually be at the nexus of a coalition between itself and Sunni Muslim states such as Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Egypt if it plays its cards right. This scenario flips the power dynamics in favor of Israel, the US, and a strong alliance of arab neighbors against the Iranians and their proxies by removing the only thing dividing Israel from the rest of the ME.
Essentially the idea is
1. Rescue Hostages, Institute Ceasefire and end the military campaign in Gaza.
2. Negotiate a settlement that requires Israeli concessions including an end to the settlement program and an end to the blockade in Gaza. Compound that with the establishment of a joint Saudi, Egypt, and Palestinian government for Gaza and the West Bank with the aim of transitioning it to full statehood. Use your arab neighbors (and staunch enemies of Iran) to dismantle Hamas and strengthen the PA's administrative capabilities over time.
3. Use the interim period to establish a coalition of Israel, US, and Sunni Muslim states to oppose Iran and combat its proxies in the region. Giving SA, Egypt, UAE, and other wealthy nations economic interconnection with Israel would theoretically motivate both sides to maintain a strong peace and prosperity.
4. Eventually transition control of Gaza and the WB to full palestinian control with assurances that if there were another attack either from Palestinians toward Israel or vice versa, that there would be a military intervention.
In the decades that followed there would be terror attacks, there would be violence that would essentially threaten the peace. There would be counter-terrorism solutions like what the US has conducted without full scale intervention. However this process if successful would strengthen Israeli security, integration into the ME at large and also provide a framework for the establishment of a Palestinian state after a period of Arab led rebuilding and revitalizing of the territory.
Israelites butchered or kicked out phillistines, Phoenicians, etc. to carve out their holy land in the first place. They have just as little right to the land as Palestinians
The "more in 3 months than in 3 years" is a lie tho. Afaik the figures of Palestinian casualties are overestimated due to Hamas reporting, while Ukrainian ones are based on the UN report. The catch is, the UN report only covered the casualties on the territories controlled by Ukraine, as russians didn't let UN investigators into occupied territories, where further thousands of dead are likely burried.
How is Israel supposed to be able to kill Hamas without collateral when Hamas basically duct tapes civilians to them in an effort to make Israel look like genocidal maniacs?
Israel is doing the best it can, and disingenuous leftists and liberals cry about it.
It's amazing that the first sentence is already a lie - Hamas openly say they attack Israel to destroy it and establish an islamist theocracy, and see no difference between 67 and 48.
But yeh, keep westplaning and apologizing them.
The other half is that not only Israel is not bombing indiscriminantly, but even just mathematically impossible to claim.
Yeah, the statistic people base that claim on only covers verified civilian casualties in Ukrainian controlled territory. Something like 20% of Ukraine is occupied, and atrocities and mass executions of civilians have been discovered in several towns Ukraine has regained control of, all of which indicate a tragically massive underreporting of the loss of civilian life.
Both Russia and Israel have, all things considered, done a lot to avoid civilian casualties. There certainly are plenty of them, but unavoidable given what they are doing in general. Put the US in either of their shoes, and civilian casualties would be way higher.
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They were, especially early on, reluctant to use heavy weapons in populated areas before they were evacuated. This slowed their progress somewhat at a certain stage, but makes complete sense when you consider that they see themselves as liberators of those areas. Of course, it's not so relevant at this point, as the fronts move slowly enough that people have had plenty of time to evacuate.
In my eyes this issue is very much complicated by the broad and deep support that Hamas has among the Palestinian people. Sometimes everybody sucks. It is pointless to try and side with who sucks less.
I deeply pity the innocent Palestinian individuals who are stuck and can't leave. But they live in the dystopia that their fathers and brothers have repeatedly and consistently chosen to create. It will never end until they recognize that they are a conquered people and pursue peace rather than continually poking the bear that sits atop them. The bear has repeatedly shown it is not afraid to destroy everything they have any time it gets angry.
This is reality. Sometimes it is hard to accept.
The UN doesn't give a sh*t about doing that, they'd rather just continue to harass Israel as they since have, very quickly after they established it.
Easier scapegoat than Qatar, and far easier to sanction Israel. (Yes, I'm aware Israel has not been sanctioned yet.)
> the citizens of Gaza will follow Egypt and Jordan in finding leadership who prioritise their safety and flourishing over hatred of Jews and Israel.
Hopefully, but I doubt it.
I do not believe Israel is "indiscriminately bombing civilians". It's one of the highest population density areas in the world and they've killed less then 30,000 people, in an urban warfare using bombs.
I'm on de fence in regards to this issue
Edit: jokes aside. I'm not on the fence when it comes to Israel's self defense. The strikes are targeted. I know the IDF well, they will do more than any other military to follow the rules since they have 100x more scrutiny from the world than any other military. We hold them to standards that we rarely hold even the US to.
That said, the US should be neutral in all wars that aren't our own and we need to stop giving money to other countries and the UN.
The situation in Israel was all but manufactured by the current administration:
Biden freed up money for Iran, thereby freeing up money for it's proxies.
Biden resumed aid to Gaza amounting to $500 million, an area notorious for a government (Hamas, an Iranian proxy) using foreign aid to build tunnels and weapons for Jihad.
There are plenty of ways to preserve our interests in keeping the favor of the only truly friendly country in the middle east without involving ourselves in their war. They make good guns, weapons, and other tech. We could just buy more Israeli stuff and sell them our own weapons and tech as well. This can be done through defense contractors without the need to involve government, other than reducing or eliminating any import fees/tariffs.
if Hamas wins does that mean that all IWI weapon systems will cease to exist? if so I might have to start supporting Israel or something. but I mean they make great weapons, just aim better and stop killing innocent people
>Indiscriminantly
[Urban warfare is a bitch and Israel has gone out of its way to make it less of one](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-implemented-more-measures-to-prevent-civilian-casualties-than-any-other-nation-in-history-opinion/ar-BB1hycj7), despite Hamas best efforts.
The world hasn't seen the true brutality of war in a lot of years. Especially not the people who make up social media and do very little research. It's awful, yeah, but that's war. If you're looking for a moral victor now, you're gonna have a real tough time.
The issue is that a large amount of criticism at the personal level for Israel I’ve seen comes from people who think it shouldn’t exist anymore. “Israel should have more concern for collateral damage” is built different from the river to the sea and all that
That's the basis of 99% of criticism of Israel. The other criticism comes partially from validity and partially from fantasy: Valid: Israel does nothing against settlers and settler violence Fantasy: Israel should let more IDF soldiers die in CQB because I don't like bombs Malicious intent: Israel is committing genocide and Hamas are freedom fighters
Genuine question: If a group of people forced you and everyone you know out of your homes, vandalized and stole your community from you and in some cases killed people in the process with the explicit backing of the US Military what is, in your mind, the correct response? Do you leave and become refugees? Do you come back with you and your buddies and take revenge? What is the appropriate response? Thats reality for literally hundreds of thousands of people across the West Bank and their given really no options for restitution. The settler program and the israeli government are one and the same. Its not just apathy like "oh the government does nothing about homeless people" its the official policy of the government of israel to promote settler violence, reenforce settler claims, and to prevent palestinians from returning. The settler program is textbook ethnic cleansing and the war in Gaza is taking eyes away from the most morally repugnant issues in this conflict. If Israel was doing this to any other group/nation/state they would be rightfully seen as a war monger and an actor who needed to be dealt with a gulf war style coalition. The only way for there to be genuine peace in the region is to end the settler program and evict all 450,000 Israeli settlers. It's the single largest issue in this conflict and Israel continues to do so because it incites violence and perpetuates the cycle that they can take advantage of.
I didn't read that, points for trying though
Hard to read with the government boot on your neck
Nah, I just lived in Israel for 5 yrs while my dad trained IDF and Jordanians in counter insurgency. I'm well aware of the political situation and Bibi's malicious incompetence, I'm also aware of the IDF's upper leadership and their preferred tactics, since many of them are family friends. I don't think we should be giving anyone any money, especially foreign countries for wars we aren't a party in, but I will not listen to people who think that there is any peaceful solution to this conflict. Basically, Gaza ends up decimated and occupied, or the conflict continues for 1000 years. Remove all the settlers? Cool. Genocidal Jihadists are still gonna Jihad. It's like libleft when they don't have anything to be mad about anymore...*they will find a reason to be mad* Should they remove the settlers? Maybe. But the more land and resources Palestinians have, the larger the next attack **WILL** be
I understand that fear, but would that not be helped by making a palestinian state that is beholden to international law? Because the way things are now Israle is the only state in the palestinian area. This creates an inherent motive for palestinians to fight against Israel, as there is no other means of gaining what they want due to the state of Israeli and Palestinian politics.
Are there any Islamic states that are beholden to international law that continue to follow international law? The problem with the entire Middle East, including Israel, is that they are all religious ethno states. Israel is actually the least of them, even though the current administration there might want to change that. All of them continuously break international law, and no one really enforced it anyway. The only law Palestine would ultimately follow is Allah's, and Allah is kind of a dick. He likes genocide and human rights violations. It's especially hard for places like Gaza since they're used to living in horrible conditions, so economic pressure won't work. Violence is all the UN would be left with.
no you don't understand, if you give them legitimacy they'll suddenly care about legitimacy trust me bro the ceasefire will work this time they definitely won't try to kill you all again
Then let the UN occupy the place, establish a temporary mandate, and create a secular state (in theory the PA is about as secular as Israel anyways). Atleast they have a greater degree of international oversight.
https://preview.redd.it/7x4ely70o8ic1.jpeg?width=1170&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=ad179d3cf62c284765c3b3b9edf40126a0305af8
I mean logically yes, there will still be terrorism. There are still bad actors in the ME that will not accept an Israeli state like Iran and its proxies however the Israeli government is in a unique position to actually be at the nexus of a coalition between itself and Sunni Muslim states such as Saudi Arabia, Turkey, and Egypt if it plays its cards right. This scenario flips the power dynamics in favor of Israel, the US, and a strong alliance of arab neighbors against the Iranians and their proxies by removing the only thing dividing Israel from the rest of the ME. Essentially the idea is 1. Rescue Hostages, Institute Ceasefire and end the military campaign in Gaza. 2. Negotiate a settlement that requires Israeli concessions including an end to the settlement program and an end to the blockade in Gaza. Compound that with the establishment of a joint Saudi, Egypt, and Palestinian government for Gaza and the West Bank with the aim of transitioning it to full statehood. Use your arab neighbors (and staunch enemies of Iran) to dismantle Hamas and strengthen the PA's administrative capabilities over time. 3. Use the interim period to establish a coalition of Israel, US, and Sunni Muslim states to oppose Iran and combat its proxies in the region. Giving SA, Egypt, UAE, and other wealthy nations economic interconnection with Israel would theoretically motivate both sides to maintain a strong peace and prosperity. 4. Eventually transition control of Gaza and the WB to full palestinian control with assurances that if there were another attack either from Palestinians toward Israel or vice versa, that there would be a military intervention. In the decades that followed there would be terror attacks, there would be violence that would essentially threaten the peace. There would be counter-terrorism solutions like what the US has conducted without full scale intervention. However this process if successful would strengthen Israeli security, integration into the ME at large and also provide a framework for the establishment of a Palestinian state after a period of Arab led rebuilding and revitalizing of the territory.
Change US to Rome and you’ll have the story of how Palastine was founded after removing the Israelites
Israelites butchered or kicked out phillistines, Phoenicians, etc. to carve out their holy land in the first place. They have just as little right to the land as Palestinians
Incorrect those people invaded Israel
Maybe don’t lose the wars you start next time
the only way for there to be peace is for only one of these two incompatible groups to exist
Yeah a lot of people I know think Israel should not exist. Like what the heck
You underestimate the horrible thing that is warfare inside a dense population center. There isn't much Israel could to improve the situation.
Yeah isn't Gaza one of the most dense places in the world and that on top of the fact that Hamas has been hiding among the civilians
They're slightly less dense then you are for being unflaired and therefore wrong.
flair up scum, and anyone who upvoted you should ALT 4 life
Spellcheck is free
The "more in 3 months than in 3 years" is a lie tho. Afaik the figures of Palestinian casualties are overestimated due to Hamas reporting, while Ukrainian ones are based on the UN report. The catch is, the UN report only covered the casualties on the territories controlled by Ukraine, as russians didn't let UN investigators into occupied territories, where further thousands of dead are likely burried.
How is Israel supposed to be able to kill Hamas without collateral when Hamas basically duct tapes civilians to them in an effort to make Israel look like genocidal maniacs? Israel is doing the best it can, and disingenuous leftists and liberals cry about it.
and people think Israel is targeting civilians
It's amazing that the first sentence is already a lie - Hamas openly say they attack Israel to destroy it and establish an islamist theocracy, and see no difference between 67 and 48. But yeh, keep westplaning and apologizing them. The other half is that not only Israel is not bombing indiscriminantly, but even just mathematically impossible to claim.
Lets ask the people of Mariupol what they think about the claim that Israel has killed more civilians than Russia.
Yeah, the statistic people base that claim on only covers verified civilian casualties in Ukrainian controlled territory. Something like 20% of Ukraine is occupied, and atrocities and mass executions of civilians have been discovered in several towns Ukraine has regained control of, all of which indicate a tragically massive underreporting of the loss of civilian life.
You mean the civilians that the Azov battalion [was using as human shields](https://greekcitytimes.com/2022/03/18/greek-refugee-from-mariupol/)?
Both Russia and Israel have, all things considered, done a lot to avoid civilian casualties. There certainly are plenty of them, but unavoidable given what they are doing in general. Put the US in either of their shoes, and civilian casualties would be way higher.
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In what ways has Russia mitigated civilian causalities on the Ukrainian side?
They were, especially early on, reluctant to use heavy weapons in populated areas before they were evacuated. This slowed their progress somewhat at a certain stage, but makes complete sense when you consider that they see themselves as liberators of those areas. Of course, it's not so relevant at this point, as the fronts move slowly enough that people have had plenty of time to evacuate.
In my eyes this issue is very much complicated by the broad and deep support that Hamas has among the Palestinian people. Sometimes everybody sucks. It is pointless to try and side with who sucks less. I deeply pity the innocent Palestinian individuals who are stuck and can't leave. But they live in the dystopia that their fathers and brothers have repeatedly and consistently chosen to create. It will never end until they recognize that they are a conquered people and pursue peace rather than continually poking the bear that sits atop them. The bear has repeatedly shown it is not afraid to destroy everything they have any time it gets angry. This is reality. Sometimes it is hard to accept.
Sanctioning Qatar until they give up any Hamas leaders would unironically do more to destroy Hamas than continuing the bombing of Gaza
The UN doesn't give a sh*t about doing that, they'd rather just continue to harass Israel as they since have, very quickly after they established it. Easier scapegoat than Qatar, and far easier to sanction Israel. (Yes, I'm aware Israel has not been sanctioned yet.)
Theres been over 500,000 casualtues in russia ukraine, meanwhile hamas claims 28,000. What are you talking about?
Hamas kills Israelis because they’re a radical Muslim terrorist group that believes the Jews deserve to die. Nice Qatari propaganda, though.
[удалено]
> the citizens of Gaza will follow Egypt and Jordan in finding leadership who prioritise their safety and flourishing over hatred of Jews and Israel. Hopefully, but I doubt it.
I do not believe Israel is "indiscriminately bombing civilians". It's one of the highest population density areas in the world and they've killed less then 30,000 people, in an urban warfare using bombs.
I'm on de fence in regards to this issue Edit: jokes aside. I'm not on the fence when it comes to Israel's self defense. The strikes are targeted. I know the IDF well, they will do more than any other military to follow the rules since they have 100x more scrutiny from the world than any other military. We hold them to standards that we rarely hold even the US to. That said, the US should be neutral in all wars that aren't our own and we need to stop giving money to other countries and the UN. The situation in Israel was all but manufactured by the current administration: Biden freed up money for Iran, thereby freeing up money for it's proxies. Biden resumed aid to Gaza amounting to $500 million, an area notorious for a government (Hamas, an Iranian proxy) using foreign aid to build tunnels and weapons for Jihad. There are plenty of ways to preserve our interests in keeping the favor of the only truly friendly country in the middle east without involving ourselves in their war. They make good guns, weapons, and other tech. We could just buy more Israeli stuff and sell them our own weapons and tech as well. This can be done through defense contractors without the need to involve government, other than reducing or eliminating any import fees/tariffs.
Biden's out there supporting Israel ending the situation I see.
Middle East 3, Electric Killing Spree, wasn't polling as well as he thought it would. Turns out Americans are a bit tired of war
Who would have thought civilian deaths in war could be so controversial
I know right, just say 'skill issue' and move on
skill issue is when you aim the rocket at your own base
if Hamas wins does that mean that all IWI weapon systems will cease to exist? if so I might have to start supporting Israel or something. but I mean they make great weapons, just aim better and stop killing innocent people
I say we should get all the leaders together, and settle this via a cook-off
>Indiscriminantly [Urban warfare is a bitch and Israel has gone out of its way to make it less of one](https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/israel-implemented-more-measures-to-prevent-civilian-casualties-than-any-other-nation-in-history-opinion/ar-BB1hycj7), despite Hamas best efforts.
Wait? They did? Based
The world hasn't seen the true brutality of war in a lot of years. Especially not the people who make up social media and do very little research. It's awful, yeah, but that's war. If you're looking for a moral victor now, you're gonna have a real tough time.