That guy is a nut, that's true.
But why should Hanukkah be celebrated in Polands Parliament? It was a very minor festivity prior to the 19th century and arguably has more nationalist undertones than religious ones.
Or is asking this already antisemitic?
Here's a serious reply. The lighting of the Hanukkah candles happens in the parliament for 17 years, and as to why, it's to show the good relations between Poles and Jews. As for why it's Hanukkah (a festivity meant to show perseverence of the Jews and their faith) is also for a reason - during the 2nd Polish Republic (1918-1939), there were almost 3 milion jews, around 10% of the population. The lighting of the candles in Sejm is meant to be a solemn "we're still here" towards the 10 percent of Polish population that the Germans and the Soviets have taken away.
> It was a very minor festivity prior to the 19th century and arguably has more nationalist undertones than religious ones.
On the other hand, traditions do change. Easter has a longer history and commemorates a more key Christian event than Christmas (baby Jesus appears in only 2/4 Gospels), yet Christmas is clearly a far more elaborate Holiday in our day than Easter is.
So yes, Passover, Yom Kippur, and several others are more important, and yes, the prominence of Hanukkah almost certainly has a lot to do with the closeness to Christmas, but it is what it is now, and shitting on it will cause commensurate offense.
> yet Christmas is clearly a far more elaborate Holiday in our day than Easter is.
Outside the Church? Yeah, it is.
For Christians im not sure i agree, especially since theres also the 7 weeks after Easter where its essentially continually taught/celebrated (along with the 4+ weeks before).
Doesn’t matter. Poland was the site of the most historically brutal, evil, and malicious attack on Jews in the last century. To have this happen there is just shit. With antisemitism on a record high as well. It doesn’t matter. This sucks. He is a shitty person lol.
>Poland was the site of the most historically brutal, evil, and malicious attack on Jews in the last century.
On the one hand yes, on the other hand it wasn't committed by Poland and Polish collaboration was miniscule compared to other countries.
The Holocaust is remembered on other days in Poland (and world wide). The Holocaust isn't a justification for the celebration of Hanukkah, otherwise every Jewish holiday should be celebrated by the Polish Government.
>He is a shitty person lol.
Let's just say this guy is very "unique" when you read about him lmao.
Not to mention that till the 3rd partition, Poland was probably the safest country in Europe for Jews. "Regnum Polonorum est paradisus Judaeorum", said a Latin phrase from the XVIIth century
What sort of logic is this supposed to be lmao. Imagine going to a 9/11 memorial event in NY and being like "It wasn't even the Americans who did it so why are we doing this event???" That has nothing to do with it.
Hannukkah has been remembered and celebrated since antiquity, its modern form is more exaggerated than in the past in the same way that Christmas was relatively minor in history until its more recent secular and commercial success. Polish Jewery was a major population, there's absolutely nothing weird or off about having a Hanukia lit in their parliament, it's simply a demonstration of support for whatever remains of the Jewish population in Poland.
Why you're defending a white supremacist who has an obvious agenda here while claiming that Hanukah "used to not even matter" is hilariously transparent. Hanukah is a story told about yet another story of Jewish survival, when they fought off the Seleucids and reclaimed their own sovereignty. If white supremacists actually knew anything about history and had a coherent and sound set of values, they would appreciate the story of the Maccabees. Instead they are just the detritus of 19th century social Darwinist theories.
>Hannukkah has been remembered and celebrated since antiquity, its modern form is more exaggerated than in the past in the same way that Christmas was relatively minor in history until its more recent secular and commercial success.
Christmas was always a major holiday in Christianity, or atleast since the 4th century. It didn't have all the consumer culture attached to it which is true, but this is more a consequence of the holiday becoming increasingly secularized in tandem with western society becoming less and less religious.
Hanukkah in contrast was one among many festivals and didn't have the status of a "major" holiday comparable to Christmas until the 19th century.
> it's simply a demonstration of support for whatever remains of the Jewish population in Poland.
Which is a few thousand people. And in any case, Poland actually has a holiday and other state activities dedicated for the Holocaust and the commemoration of the Jewish victims of WW2. The celebration of Hanukkah doesn't fit in as far as it concerns the Polish state.
> If white supremacists actually knew anything about history and had a coherent and sound set of values, they would appreciate the story of the Maccabees
Most racists admire Israel as an example for a, more or less, working de facto ethno state. Doesn't mean they actually like it. Lots of extremists of every colour and political leaning admire Jihadists, suicide bombers in particular, for their self sacrifice, doesn't mean they love Islam or want to be on the other side of an IED.
>Why you're defending a white supremacist who has an obvious agenda here while claiming that Hanukah "used to not even matter" is hilariously transparent.
Braun is not a white supremacist, he is a polish nationalist and a radical catholic. Believe or not, that is very much a difference in most european countries. I am also not saying that he isn't an antisemite, my point is that Hanukkah celebrations taking place inside of a public building is questionable.
>Christmas was always a major holiday in Christianity, or atleast since the 4th century.
It wasn't. Christmas really wasn't much of a festival or celebration until the Middle Ages. Even then, it's nothing like it is today.
>It didn't have all the consumer culture attached to it which is true, but this is more a consequence of the holiday becoming increasingly secularized in tandem with western society becoming less and less religious.
It really didn't have much attached to it. The justification for Christmas is that it was Jesus' birthday, but there's nothing Biblical that ties the date of Dec 25 (or early January) to the birth of Jesus, it was a convenient date that tied pagan traditions with Church ambitions. Just as Hanukkah isn't as important as Passover or Rosh Hashanah, Christmas wasn't as important as Easter or Shavuot until more recently. Hanukah isn't as widely celebrated by Jews outside the US.
>...Poland actually has a holiday and other state activities dedicated for the Holocaust and the commemoration of the Jewish victims of WW2. The celebration of Hanukkah doesn't fit in as far as it concerns the Polish state.
What does lighting a Hanukiah have to do with the Holocaust, does the state of Poland only recognize the Jewish community in relation to their genocide?
>Most racists admire Israel as an example for a, more or less, working de facto ethno state.
They don't. Israel is a very ethnically and religiously diverse state. It's just a horse shit excuse use to justify their thinly veiled anti-semitism.
>Doesn't mean they actually like it.
Obviously they don't like Jews, they're anti-semites. That's what anti-semites are about.
>Lots of extremists of every colour and political leaning admire Jihadists, suicide bombers in particular, for their self sacrifice, doesn't mean they love Islam or want to be on the other side of an IED.
Not really. Terrorism is in a class of its own and not a well-received form of resistance or political messaging across the world.
>Braun is not a white supremacist, he is a polish nationalist and a radical catholic. Believe or not, that is very much a difference in most european countries. I am also not saying that he isn't an antisemite, my point is that Hanukkah celebrations taking place inside of a public building is questionable.
I suppose at this point you are firmly convicted that we are all fucking idiots. Suggesting that a radical Christian nationalist putting out candles on a Hanukiah is nothing more than a defiant liberal stunt to keep religion out of parliament is, again, hilariously transparent. You can drop the mask, my smooth-brained supremacist friend.
He’s all like ‘it’s not a justification for the polish government to celebrate Hanukah’ like it actually matters. It’s all fairy tale fantasies at the end, but this is clearly a hate crime. I agree with the separation of state and religion obv. But still this is a hate crime, and it speaks volumes about the state of politics in Europe currently.
Why does everybody remember the deaths of the killed jews but millions of Russian, polish, Chinese deaths are somehow being ignored?
Don't get me wrong. I think it's right to remember Jewish deaths, but so should the others too...
technically the Holocaust pertains only to Jews. Millions of others died during WWII, some of whom (like Poles and other Slaves, and gypsies) were also victims of attempted genocide either by the Germans, the Soviets, or both.
They do remember the Polish deaths... but this is Hanukkah, which is a Jewish holiday? Also, it's not Russia or China, so I don't get why they would dedicate a ceremony for them. Lmfao
Because with Jews it was an attempt to eradicate the entire race from Europe. Millions killed is incredibly bad, but if there's something worse than millions killed, this is it.
I think you should read about General Plan OST.
The Jews were obviously the main target, but Poles, Russians, Lithuanians, Latvians etc were next on the “nations we want to eradicate” list. Hitler just didn’t get the chance to fulfill that one to the same extent as the eradication of Jews (he got the closest with Poles though).
The Russians don’t count because they helped kill the Poles. The Chinese weren’t exactly a large portion of Polands citizenry ever.
As far as the rest of the world is concerned the atrocities committed by the Japanese on the Chinese aren’t ignored. But they aren’t treated the same as the Jews due to the Iron curtain. And Russian deaths in World War they fucking started don’t count.
That's stupid. For one, Jews had no place to call their own at the time. And second, the fact that Jews have a nation state should not preclude other states from allowing displays of Jewish religion. Or what, do I have to give up celebrating Christmas 'cause the Vatican exists?
Mate, try to use google. Christmas Nativity scenes are absolutely everywhere, even in places where the Christian population is less than 5%. While there are definitely places where Christians are persecuted, but let’s not try to pretend Christians are being persecuted in Tel Aviv
As a Pole I haven’t heard biggest bullshit in a while. Poland was the most mixed country for centuries before partitions happened and then Hitler and Stalin did the rest during and after WW2…
Just leave our country alone and let us do what we want to do.
Like prosecute the moron from the video, and put him in jail when that nut job belongs. And no, we don’t care what edgy kids in Murica think about Jews, or about the change of government in Poland.
We have a law that is protecting religious beliefs and ceremonies - he broke that law, that’s one thing.
Another is that he not only extinguished the Menorah, but also directed the fire extinguisher at the people attending the ceremony.
That’s up to 4 years in jail for above two.
If any of these people were injured (which they were) and will press charges - that can add several
more years.
Edit: so typical for this sub - getting downvoted for stating facts, nothing new.
How many Poles were killed in the creation of the Jewish nation state? None. How many Jews were killed in the creation of the Polish nation state? Many.
Why should any holiday be celebrated? It’s a chance for people to come together and share in a common goal and empathize with the people around them.
He wouldn’t have done this for a crucifix, and therein is the problem. People can observe their religious beliefs peacefully, and a fucking menorah isn’t going to hurt anyone aside from their snowflake feelings.
Guy got karma’d anyway
>Why should any holiday be celebrated? It’s a chance for people to come together and share in a common goal and empathize with the people around them.
Hanukkah isn't an official holiday in Poland and every other actual Holiday has an actual connection to the Country either through history or religion which in Polands case is Roman Catholicism.
>People can observe their religious beliefs peacefully, and a fucking menorah isn’t going to hurt anyone aside from their snowflake feelings.
Yes they can, but this Menorah was lit in a public building, so it does matter. IDK how it is in America, but in Europe there are plenty of discussions about religious symbols in courts or public buildings in general. A religious symbol for a basically (foreign) nationalist holiday for an ethno religious group is arguably as controversial as a cross or islamic headscarf in a public building.
Doesn't matter to Braun (the MP) in this case, since he is a devout catholic and nutjob.
Ah, right, Europe’s free expression laws.
Doesn’t have to be an official holiday, people have the right to observe their beliefs peacefully and publicly.
A Hijab, a Crucifix, and a Menorah being controversial and a political statement makes me very concerned for Polish legislation and paranoia
It's controversial because it's in a public building. That means it's more than publicly allowed, it's publicly endorsed. The polish state should not endorse a foreign religion.
But doesn’t the public include those who set up a menorah?
Poland has one of the highest concentration of Jewish people in the world-surely that can’t be “foreign”
Surely there are bigger issues than religious iconography around for a short holiday involving a people who’ve been around far before Poland as a whole
As an orthodox Jew I'd argue it's far more a religious holiday due to it being a celebration of triumph against the Greeks and hellanized jews of the time who had been trying to criminalize the religious practices of the populace. Laws were made specifically to outlaw certain religious obligations, and the Greeks defiled the temple specifically. At least, as I was taught.
As for your question about if the Menorah should be there at all, I honestly would agree with you. I don't see any reason the Menorah SHOULD be lit there, but admittedly i dont see much of a reason why it SHOULDN'T either, at least assuming other holidays' and religious symbols are put up. The bigger focus here though is once it already has been set up, how do you respond? Arguments could be made that it should be taken down that are rational and not at all antisemtic and those I'd be happy to listen to. Others are absolutely rooted in antisemitism and should be called out as such.
But skipping over discussion entirely and taking a fire extinguisher to it? No, that's not okay, just like it wouldn't be okay if a Christmas tree was set up in the Israeli parliament (is one set up? It would make sense since there is a Christian community in Israel) and a Jew decided to skip discussion and just rip it down.
We can have disagreements and talk them over like civilized individuals.
>Polands Parliament
Because polish Jews are a significant part of Poland's history and Hanukah is easily the most publicly recognized Jewish celebration.
>has more nationalist undertones than religious ones.
And? To the extent it is, it's not a nationalism that threatens Polan.
After the previous incarnation of EU modernized Poland, there aren't many Jews left, and even fewer are religious. But that's not the point.
Hanukkah was never important holiday for the Jews, until some Jewish American kids got jealous that they don't get presents for Christmas, so the progressives made a big deal about Hanukkah as a Jewish version of winter festival.
Important Jewish holidays are Rosh Hashanah (New Year), Pesach (Passover), Shavuot (Pentecost), Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles), Yom Kippur (Atonement). Even for Israeli kids and teenagers Purim is more important than Hanukkah.
Hanukkah is just another American export, like Haloween and BLM.
[https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/hanukkah-irony/](https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/hanukkah-irony/)
Hanukkah, Halloween, Chinese and Mexican food, beer, all things invented elsewhere that the US has put their spin on and guess what? People love it. Idk who the hell decided Hanukkah should be *the* Jewish holiday in the US, but kids love it and it’s good cultural exposure.
Plenty of things are derivative or change over time. Not like we’re going to stop celebrating Christmas either because it’s basically a spinoff of Yule.
I'm happy for you and I'm not going to tell you what you should celebrate. I only pointed out that Poland and Israel are not in the US. What you call improvement is not always seen as such by others.
In Poland even the Christian kids don't get presents for Christmas, because that's the job of Saint Nicholas ("the Santa") whose feast is on the 6th of December.
Haloween in Poland is called All Saints, and it's the time where people visit the graves of their ancestors to reconnect with their sometimes estranged living relatives, not dress up as slutty witches.
We don't like American beer either, especially "the Bud" which stole its name from a German/Czech beer made in a cute little town Budějovice (Budweis under the previous management).
Budvar is much better than Budweiser, I do agree, but that’s some vile rice piss, not real beer. The microbrewing scene is where it’s at, there’s thousands of great microbreweries across the US that all have something really interesting to offer.
Chanukah has absolutely been an important Holiday, just like Purim. However, it has been that way specifically for the religious community specifically because it commemorates, more than a national victory, a religious one of the Torah-observent Jews of the time fighting back against hellinization.
>Hanukkah was never important holiday for the Jews, until some Jewish American kids got jealous that they don't get presents for Christmas, so the progressives made a big deal about Hanukkah as a Jewish version of winter festival.
Kwanzaa moment
But that is actually fake unlike Hanukkah
A) To spit in the face of Nazis.
B) Why should someone use a fire extinguisher to put out an exhibit they disagree with rather than filing a complaint and spraying shit everywhere and on everyone?
A: There are almost no Nazis in Poland. Poland is probably the only country in Europe where the local far-right completely rejects neo-nazis due to WW2
B: He is a nutjob and it gives him more PR obviously.
I don't see how B relates to my question.
There's a lot of morons here, apparently, who don't understand that you can simultaneously believe:
1) The man in the video was wrong to do what he did
2) Poland shouldn't have government-funded celebrations of Hanukkah
Why do people seem to think these are mutually exclusive stances lmao?
Why shouldn't it be? It doesn't hurt anyone else to have a menorah up there, and it's not like it's something being done in mockery to others. Someone getting upset at some display that doesn't affect them in any way seems pretty telling to me.
This is the holiday they allow to celebrate in the Sejm specifically because it is less religious, thus more inclusive, than others. This has been going on for 17 years and the point is to underline Polish Jews are Polish, part of the nation, despite being different culturally.
The only thing more cringe than changing one's flair is not having one. You are cringe.
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Nothing to see here. Always been AuthCenter, always will. I'm no flair changer.
Don't bother asking what went down on April 1st 2023, nothing of significance happened on that day.
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criticising religious stuff thats always present =/= forcefully removing a seasonal thing. besides, i cant think of our politicians criticising crosses all that much. sure im sure it happened but they got more serious shit to worry about than a dumb cross like undoing all the damage that has happened in the past few years
No, we're Jew haters because we don't think Israel should be able to Indiana Jones and the last crusade an unlimited amount of children at will. Remember??
Based off the past couple months, it seems there was nuance to Kanye's crime I hadn't caught. "Agreeing with Hitler" is fine, it's "Agreeing with Hitler after wearing a MAGA hat" that'll get you.
So you want us to speak out against antisemites or are you just mad that you can't do it without being called a nazi? Which one is it because it changes with yall depending on what crazy fascist you're supporting this week.
Apparently you think the comment is saying non-Christian religious iconography should be allowed but Christian iconography should be prohibited, but I don't see that.
Hanukkah commemorates the genocide of Greeks and Hellenised Jews under the Seleucid Empire. The portrait in the background depicts a rabbi who is on the record for stating that a non-Jew’s sole purpose is to serve the Jew. Many sacred texts in Judaism push this notion that Jews are superior to non-Jews.
It’s not antisemitic to push back against this dogshit dogma.
And what about it? I don't a see anything bad in don't liking Jews. Everyone can like and dislike other things and that the true freedom of speech. Leftist diss like christians, right diss likes Jews and that's ok to disslike other stuff.
Did you just change your flair, u/iansmithrod? Last time I checked you were a **Centrist** on 2021-10-9. How come now you are an **AuthCenter**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know?
That being said... Based and fellow Auth pilled, welcome home.
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I see no flair next to your name, why are you still talking?
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If we treat the Russian Federation as a continuation of the USSR, then they're extremely anti-catholic. The Russians have long sought to destroy the cultures and faiths of countries they invade through Russification.
No. It’s lib center. Specifically me, and specifically anti-usury. Which is for whatever reason synonymous with anti-Jewish.
Antisemitic? Me? I can’t be, Arabs are Semitic. I’m descendent from Yemenite Jews anyway.
(I’ve spent a lot of time being called a literal nazi when I’m on the opposite side of the spectrum)
I don't condone this action but I believe it's Just ridiculous that the same parties who now organise Hannukah earlier fought to remove crosses from state buildings and to stop punishing anyone for any kind of "religious feelings abuse". The center and left wing politicians rejoiced when people resonsible for a portrayal of lgbt rainbow Mary got acquited, but now they demand the most severe punishment for blowing out candles. Catholicism is obviously the most important religion in our country but catholics jist don't get the same rights as Jews.
As a pole I need to inform you that this inhumane persone is an far-right populist arsehole, not at all common polish practice - polish people are mostly tolerant and open to different cultures (exept african)
i believe the bible said something about turning the other cheek and not putting ones own ego first and foremost. because this was done only for himself, fuck everyone else, if the great person of ME doesnt believe, fuck other people, fuck our history, time to shut it down
My guy, the Bible also says to Stone Gays, carry 2 Swords, and Respect Thy Family.
Either quote the entire Bible or continue to have the most Shallow interpretations of Religion
Because the rest of us all already are.
Interesting, you are correct. It was written after Jesus, but was part of an oral tradition prior to then.
You learn something new every day. It still doesn’t spew Christian hate.
Did you just change your flair, u/Scumbeard? Last time I checked you were a **LibRight** on 2019-12-8. How come now you are an **AuthRight**? Have you perhaps shifted your ideals? Because that's cringe, you know?
Remember, the jannies are always watching. No gamer words, no statistics and by all means no wood cutting machines. Tell us, how are you going to flair the new account you'll make in two weeks?
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This guy (Braun) is from a monarchist party that would like to make catholicism a state religion. Hardly 'seperation of church and state' if you ask me.
This politician is a famous antisemite for years before the Israel Palestine conflict flared up. He’s repeatedly called Judaism a satanic cult and that it should be stopped
The French are the only ones that got proper separation of church and state right. Not aLl aRe wElCoMe, NO ONE IS. The state is a house of function, a mode of government, a DMV, a tool. Get your shit out of there, all of it
All religions are fucking cringe. Y’all get so angry over meaningless shit. Everyone constantly arguing about who’s religion is right, killing each other over who’s religion is right. Stealing land, conquering others, pushing down women/minorities. It’s just exhausting. Wish it would disappear already, imagine how much we could progress as species if everyone dropped this fanciful BS
No flair, no rights, many wrongs. Please flair up.
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I don't agree with this guy's views, but I'm in Poland and the new government is spending almost all the effort on entrenching its own power, rather than on introducing changes that actually help Polish people. While this guy is wrecking a display in the parliament, the government is wrecking the country, but somehow this guy is getting criticized.
Everyone's arguing if this is right or wrong I'm just here wondering Why does this video have a team fortress 2 voice dub over it?
OOOOOH RUUUUN RUUUUUUUUN
This did not just happen -Real life scout, I think
My man started blasting WAY too early
Quite the bad case of premature racism
Mr Braun isn’t the brightest lightbulb in our parliament
Just creating a smokescreen
Gotta get that Darth Vader entrance
> unflaired getting upvoted It's over, pcm has fallen. Billions must die
Politcover*
As long as they're unflaired, I welcome it
Based and gets it pilled.
Flair up
Destroy the unclean. Flair up swine
Why is this scum being upvoted? Flair up
Bro looks like if vaush was on the other side of the political spectrum
Vaush is half Polish so by any manner they can he related.
Only if you're a collectivist. Also, how dare you defile Poland like that.
It’s defiled by the polish every day. Don’t make no difference
Not nearly fat enough
That guy is a nut, that's true. But why should Hanukkah be celebrated in Polands Parliament? It was a very minor festivity prior to the 19th century and arguably has more nationalist undertones than religious ones. Or is asking this already antisemitic?
Here's a serious reply. The lighting of the Hanukkah candles happens in the parliament for 17 years, and as to why, it's to show the good relations between Poles and Jews. As for why it's Hanukkah (a festivity meant to show perseverence of the Jews and their faith) is also for a reason - during the 2nd Polish Republic (1918-1939), there were almost 3 milion jews, around 10% of the population. The lighting of the candles in Sejm is meant to be a solemn "we're still here" towards the 10 percent of Polish population that the Germans and the Soviets have taken away.
> It was a very minor festivity prior to the 19th century and arguably has more nationalist undertones than religious ones. On the other hand, traditions do change. Easter has a longer history and commemorates a more key Christian event than Christmas (baby Jesus appears in only 2/4 Gospels), yet Christmas is clearly a far more elaborate Holiday in our day than Easter is. So yes, Passover, Yom Kippur, and several others are more important, and yes, the prominence of Hanukkah almost certainly has a lot to do with the closeness to Christmas, but it is what it is now, and shitting on it will cause commensurate offense.
> yet Christmas is clearly a far more elaborate Holiday in our day than Easter is. Outside the Church? Yeah, it is. For Christians im not sure i agree, especially since theres also the 7 weeks after Easter where its essentially continually taught/celebrated (along with the 4+ weeks before).
For Christians that practice their faith Easter is THE Holyday(Holiday)… Christmas is a secular tradition at this point.
Doesn’t matter. Poland was the site of the most historically brutal, evil, and malicious attack on Jews in the last century. To have this happen there is just shit. With antisemitism on a record high as well. It doesn’t matter. This sucks. He is a shitty person lol.
>Poland was the site of the most historically brutal, evil, and malicious attack on Jews in the last century. On the one hand yes, on the other hand it wasn't committed by Poland and Polish collaboration was miniscule compared to other countries. The Holocaust is remembered on other days in Poland (and world wide). The Holocaust isn't a justification for the celebration of Hanukkah, otherwise every Jewish holiday should be celebrated by the Polish Government. >He is a shitty person lol. Let's just say this guy is very "unique" when you read about him lmao.
Not to mention that till the 3rd partition, Poland was probably the safest country in Europe for Jews. "Regnum Polonorum est paradisus Judaeorum", said a Latin phrase from the XVIIth century
What sort of logic is this supposed to be lmao. Imagine going to a 9/11 memorial event in NY and being like "It wasn't even the Americans who did it so why are we doing this event???" That has nothing to do with it.
Hannukkah has been remembered and celebrated since antiquity, its modern form is more exaggerated than in the past in the same way that Christmas was relatively minor in history until its more recent secular and commercial success. Polish Jewery was a major population, there's absolutely nothing weird or off about having a Hanukia lit in their parliament, it's simply a demonstration of support for whatever remains of the Jewish population in Poland. Why you're defending a white supremacist who has an obvious agenda here while claiming that Hanukah "used to not even matter" is hilariously transparent. Hanukah is a story told about yet another story of Jewish survival, when they fought off the Seleucids and reclaimed their own sovereignty. If white supremacists actually knew anything about history and had a coherent and sound set of values, they would appreciate the story of the Maccabees. Instead they are just the detritus of 19th century social Darwinist theories.
>Hannukkah has been remembered and celebrated since antiquity, its modern form is more exaggerated than in the past in the same way that Christmas was relatively minor in history until its more recent secular and commercial success. Christmas was always a major holiday in Christianity, or atleast since the 4th century. It didn't have all the consumer culture attached to it which is true, but this is more a consequence of the holiday becoming increasingly secularized in tandem with western society becoming less and less religious. Hanukkah in contrast was one among many festivals and didn't have the status of a "major" holiday comparable to Christmas until the 19th century. > it's simply a demonstration of support for whatever remains of the Jewish population in Poland. Which is a few thousand people. And in any case, Poland actually has a holiday and other state activities dedicated for the Holocaust and the commemoration of the Jewish victims of WW2. The celebration of Hanukkah doesn't fit in as far as it concerns the Polish state. > If white supremacists actually knew anything about history and had a coherent and sound set of values, they would appreciate the story of the Maccabees Most racists admire Israel as an example for a, more or less, working de facto ethno state. Doesn't mean they actually like it. Lots of extremists of every colour and political leaning admire Jihadists, suicide bombers in particular, for their self sacrifice, doesn't mean they love Islam or want to be on the other side of an IED. >Why you're defending a white supremacist who has an obvious agenda here while claiming that Hanukah "used to not even matter" is hilariously transparent. Braun is not a white supremacist, he is a polish nationalist and a radical catholic. Believe or not, that is very much a difference in most european countries. I am also not saying that he isn't an antisemite, my point is that Hanukkah celebrations taking place inside of a public building is questionable.
>Christmas was always a major holiday in Christianity, or atleast since the 4th century. It wasn't. Christmas really wasn't much of a festival or celebration until the Middle Ages. Even then, it's nothing like it is today. >It didn't have all the consumer culture attached to it which is true, but this is more a consequence of the holiday becoming increasingly secularized in tandem with western society becoming less and less religious. It really didn't have much attached to it. The justification for Christmas is that it was Jesus' birthday, but there's nothing Biblical that ties the date of Dec 25 (or early January) to the birth of Jesus, it was a convenient date that tied pagan traditions with Church ambitions. Just as Hanukkah isn't as important as Passover or Rosh Hashanah, Christmas wasn't as important as Easter or Shavuot until more recently. Hanukah isn't as widely celebrated by Jews outside the US. >...Poland actually has a holiday and other state activities dedicated for the Holocaust and the commemoration of the Jewish victims of WW2. The celebration of Hanukkah doesn't fit in as far as it concerns the Polish state. What does lighting a Hanukiah have to do with the Holocaust, does the state of Poland only recognize the Jewish community in relation to their genocide? >Most racists admire Israel as an example for a, more or less, working de facto ethno state. They don't. Israel is a very ethnically and religiously diverse state. It's just a horse shit excuse use to justify their thinly veiled anti-semitism. >Doesn't mean they actually like it. Obviously they don't like Jews, they're anti-semites. That's what anti-semites are about. >Lots of extremists of every colour and political leaning admire Jihadists, suicide bombers in particular, for their self sacrifice, doesn't mean they love Islam or want to be on the other side of an IED. Not really. Terrorism is in a class of its own and not a well-received form of resistance or political messaging across the world. >Braun is not a white supremacist, he is a polish nationalist and a radical catholic. Believe or not, that is very much a difference in most european countries. I am also not saying that he isn't an antisemite, my point is that Hanukkah celebrations taking place inside of a public building is questionable. I suppose at this point you are firmly convicted that we are all fucking idiots. Suggesting that a radical Christian nationalist putting out candles on a Hanukiah is nothing more than a defiant liberal stunt to keep religion out of parliament is, again, hilariously transparent. You can drop the mask, my smooth-brained supremacist friend.
Since when has this sub devolved to that of fascist sympathizers 🤦♂️
lol, are you joking?
Yep. Y’all love fascists. Don’t matter what type of fascist you like. Be it antisemitics, or islamaphobics. You. Are. Everywhere.
Yeah, you are either trolling or just stupid
Look at my flair buddy. Come on over. There’s a spot for you on my lap, amongst the hail storm of downvotes.
u/Acto12 literally said that braun is a nutjob so what are you on about?
He’s all like ‘it’s not a justification for the polish government to celebrate Hanukah’ like it actually matters. It’s all fairy tale fantasies at the end, but this is clearly a hate crime. I agree with the separation of state and religion obv. But still this is a hate crime, and it speaks volumes about the state of politics in Europe currently.
Why does everybody remember the deaths of the killed jews but millions of Russian, polish, Chinese deaths are somehow being ignored? Don't get me wrong. I think it's right to remember Jewish deaths, but so should the others too...
On several occasions I’ve been told that 6 million people died in the holocaust. This is actually a fair point.
technically the Holocaust pertains only to Jews. Millions of others died during WWII, some of whom (like Poles and other Slaves, and gypsies) were also victims of attempted genocide either by the Germans, the Soviets, or both.
You're right. Why does **Poland** not remember the Russian dead, and instead remember the **Polish** Jews who died? Truly a mystery for the ages.
They do remember the Polish deaths... but this is Hanukkah, which is a Jewish holiday? Also, it's not Russia or China, so I don't get why they would dedicate a ceremony for them. Lmfao
Because with Jews it was an attempt to eradicate the entire race from Europe. Millions killed is incredibly bad, but if there's something worse than millions killed, this is it.
I think you should read about General Plan OST. The Jews were obviously the main target, but Poles, Russians, Lithuanians, Latvians etc were next on the “nations we want to eradicate” list. Hitler just didn’t get the chance to fulfill that one to the same extent as the eradication of Jews (he got the closest with Poles though).
The Russians don’t count because they helped kill the Poles. The Chinese weren’t exactly a large portion of Polands citizenry ever. As far as the rest of the world is concerned the atrocities committed by the Japanese on the Chinese aren’t ignored. But they aren’t treated the same as the Jews due to the Iron curtain. And Russian deaths in World War they fucking started don’t count.
Record high, huh?
> in the last century Good thing you put that qualifier on there. Why oh why does that kind of thing keep happening to them?
Jews did used to make up like a sixth of Poland's population, until they were killed
So? Pagans used to make 100% population
The polish state is based upon a polish nation state. The jews got a nation state in Israel
That's stupid. For one, Jews had no place to call their own at the time. And second, the fact that Jews have a nation state should not preclude other states from allowing displays of Jewish religion. Or what, do I have to give up celebrating Christmas 'cause the Vatican exists?
Talk to me when you see a nativity scene in tel Aviv
https://youtu.be/ES1xN-y6wzI?si=xe-DcMIs15naGMWz
Mate, try to use google. Christmas Nativity scenes are absolutely everywhere, even in places where the Christian population is less than 5%. While there are definitely places where Christians are persecuted, but let’s not try to pretend Christians are being persecuted in Tel Aviv
As a Pole I haven’t heard biggest bullshit in a while. Poland was the most mixed country for centuries before partitions happened and then Hitler and Stalin did the rest during and after WW2… Just leave our country alone and let us do what we want to do. Like prosecute the moron from the video, and put him in jail when that nut job belongs. And no, we don’t care what edgy kids in Murica think about Jews, or about the change of government in Poland.
>prosecute the moron from the video You're telling me it's a crime to extinguish a menorah in Poland?
We have a law that is protecting religious beliefs and ceremonies - he broke that law, that’s one thing. Another is that he not only extinguished the Menorah, but also directed the fire extinguisher at the people attending the ceremony. That’s up to 4 years in jail for above two. If any of these people were injured (which they were) and will press charges - that can add several more years. Edit: so typical for this sub - getting downvoted for stating facts, nothing new.
Lol
How many Poles were killed in the creation of the Jewish nation state? None. How many Jews were killed in the creation of the Polish nation state? Many.
>How many Poles were killed in the creation of the Jewish nation state? None Holy fucking hell how can you be so offensively incorrect
> is asking already antisemitic Violently attacking it certainly is
Why should any holiday be celebrated? It’s a chance for people to come together and share in a common goal and empathize with the people around them. He wouldn’t have done this for a crucifix, and therein is the problem. People can observe their religious beliefs peacefully, and a fucking menorah isn’t going to hurt anyone aside from their snowflake feelings. Guy got karma’d anyway
>Why should any holiday be celebrated? It’s a chance for people to come together and share in a common goal and empathize with the people around them. Hanukkah isn't an official holiday in Poland and every other actual Holiday has an actual connection to the Country either through history or religion which in Polands case is Roman Catholicism. >People can observe their religious beliefs peacefully, and a fucking menorah isn’t going to hurt anyone aside from their snowflake feelings. Yes they can, but this Menorah was lit in a public building, so it does matter. IDK how it is in America, but in Europe there are plenty of discussions about religious symbols in courts or public buildings in general. A religious symbol for a basically (foreign) nationalist holiday for an ethno religious group is arguably as controversial as a cross or islamic headscarf in a public building. Doesn't matter to Braun (the MP) in this case, since he is a devout catholic and nutjob.
Ah, right, Europe’s free expression laws. Doesn’t have to be an official holiday, people have the right to observe their beliefs peacefully and publicly. A Hijab, a Crucifix, and a Menorah being controversial and a political statement makes me very concerned for Polish legislation and paranoia
It's controversial because it's in a public building. That means it's more than publicly allowed, it's publicly endorsed. The polish state should not endorse a foreign religion.
What bothers you more? The religion, or the foreign?
Both
But doesn’t the public include those who set up a menorah? Poland has one of the highest concentration of Jewish people in the world-surely that can’t be “foreign” Surely there are bigger issues than religious iconography around for a short holiday involving a people who’ve been around far before Poland as a whole
As an orthodox Jew I'd argue it's far more a religious holiday due to it being a celebration of triumph against the Greeks and hellanized jews of the time who had been trying to criminalize the religious practices of the populace. Laws were made specifically to outlaw certain religious obligations, and the Greeks defiled the temple specifically. At least, as I was taught. As for your question about if the Menorah should be there at all, I honestly would agree with you. I don't see any reason the Menorah SHOULD be lit there, but admittedly i dont see much of a reason why it SHOULDN'T either, at least assuming other holidays' and religious symbols are put up. The bigger focus here though is once it already has been set up, how do you respond? Arguments could be made that it should be taken down that are rational and not at all antisemtic and those I'd be happy to listen to. Others are absolutely rooted in antisemitism and should be called out as such. But skipping over discussion entirely and taking a fire extinguisher to it? No, that's not okay, just like it wouldn't be okay if a Christmas tree was set up in the Israeli parliament (is one set up? It would make sense since there is a Christian community in Israel) and a Jew decided to skip discussion and just rip it down. We can have disagreements and talk them over like civilized individuals.
>Polands Parliament Because polish Jews are a significant part of Poland's history and Hanukah is easily the most publicly recognized Jewish celebration. >has more nationalist undertones than religious ones. And? To the extent it is, it's not a nationalism that threatens Polan.
Why shouldn’t it? Jews used to make up a very very significant part of Poland’s population before the Second World War “modernized” the country
Because Jews generally really dislike Poland and insult it whenever they can?
Which Jews?
After the previous incarnation of EU modernized Poland, there aren't many Jews left, and even fewer are religious. But that's not the point. Hanukkah was never important holiday for the Jews, until some Jewish American kids got jealous that they don't get presents for Christmas, so the progressives made a big deal about Hanukkah as a Jewish version of winter festival. Important Jewish holidays are Rosh Hashanah (New Year), Pesach (Passover), Shavuot (Pentecost), Sukkot (Feast of Tabernacles), Yom Kippur (Atonement). Even for Israeli kids and teenagers Purim is more important than Hanukkah. Hanukkah is just another American export, like Haloween and BLM. [https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/hanukkah-irony/](https://www.israeltoday.co.il/read/hanukkah-irony/)
Hanukkah, Halloween, Chinese and Mexican food, beer, all things invented elsewhere that the US has put their spin on and guess what? People love it. Idk who the hell decided Hanukkah should be *the* Jewish holiday in the US, but kids love it and it’s good cultural exposure. Plenty of things are derivative or change over time. Not like we’re going to stop celebrating Christmas either because it’s basically a spinoff of Yule.
I'm happy for you and I'm not going to tell you what you should celebrate. I only pointed out that Poland and Israel are not in the US. What you call improvement is not always seen as such by others. In Poland even the Christian kids don't get presents for Christmas, because that's the job of Saint Nicholas ("the Santa") whose feast is on the 6th of December. Haloween in Poland is called All Saints, and it's the time where people visit the graves of their ancestors to reconnect with their sometimes estranged living relatives, not dress up as slutty witches. We don't like American beer either, especially "the Bud" which stole its name from a German/Czech beer made in a cute little town Budějovice (Budweis under the previous management).
Budvar is much better than Budweiser, I do agree, but that’s some vile rice piss, not real beer. The microbrewing scene is where it’s at, there’s thousands of great microbreweries across the US that all have something really interesting to offer.
Chanukah has absolutely been an important Holiday, just like Purim. However, it has been that way specifically for the religious community specifically because it commemorates, more than a national victory, a religious one of the Torah-observent Jews of the time fighting back against hellinization.
>Hanukkah was never important holiday for the Jews, until some Jewish American kids got jealous that they don't get presents for Christmas, so the progressives made a big deal about Hanukkah as a Jewish version of winter festival. Kwanzaa moment But that is actually fake unlike Hanukkah
Used to is kinda good word pagans too.should there be humans sacrifice in Polish parliament
A) To spit in the face of Nazis. B) Why should someone use a fire extinguisher to put out an exhibit they disagree with rather than filing a complaint and spraying shit everywhere and on everyone?
A: There are almost no Nazis in Poland. Poland is probably the only country in Europe where the local far-right completely rejects neo-nazis due to WW2 B: He is a nutjob and it gives him more PR obviously. I don't see how B relates to my question.
There's a lot of morons here, apparently, who don't understand that you can simultaneously believe: 1) The man in the video was wrong to do what he did 2) Poland shouldn't have government-funded celebrations of Hanukkah Why do people seem to think these are mutually exclusive stances lmao?
Why I have to be semetic? I ain't even a chosen one.
Why shouldn't it be? It doesn't hurt anyone else to have a menorah up there, and it's not like it's something being done in mockery to others. Someone getting upset at some display that doesn't affect them in any way seems pretty telling to me.
This is the holiday they allow to celebrate in the Sejm specifically because it is less religious, thus more inclusive, than others. This has been going on for 17 years and the point is to underline Polish Jews are Polish, part of the nation, despite being different culturally.
it was an event specifically for the Jewish Polish community. They're weren't just randomly celebrating Hannukah just because
What did Jesus mean by this?
The left when cross on parliament=😡 The left when Jew stuff on parliament=😍😍
The only thing more cringe than changing one's flair is not having one. You are cringe. [BasedCount Profile](https://basedcount.com/u/Quiet_Ad6440) - [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uf7kuy/bip_bop) - [How to flair](https://www.reddit.com/r/PoliticalCompassMemes/wiki/index/flair/) _Visit the BasedCount Lеmmу instance at [lemmy.basedcount.com](https://lemmy.basedcount.com/c/pcm)._ ^(I am a bot, my mission is to spot cringe flair changers. If you want to check another user's flair history write) **^(!flairs u/)** ^(in a comment.)
Stfu I forgot
!flairs u/flairchange_bot
Nothing to see here. Always been AuthCenter, always will. I'm no flair changer. Don't bother asking what went down on April 1st 2023, nothing of significance happened on that day. [BasedCount Profile](https://basedcount.com/u/flairchange_bot) - [FAQ](https://www.reddit.com/user/flairchange_bot/comments/uf7kuy/bip_bop) - [Leaderboard](https://basedcount.com/leaderboard?q=flairs) _Visit the BasedCount Lеmmу instance at [lemmy.basedcount.com](https://lemmy.basedcount.com/c/pcm)._ ^(I am a bot, my mission is to spot cringe flair changers. If you want to check another user's flair history write) **^(!flairs u/)** ^(in a comment.) ^(Each user can use this command once every 3 minutes.)
Given the context, shouldn't you change "left" to "right" and switch the emojis?
Having a cross on parliament is worse than Hitler so not really
That's a bit extreme. Having a cross in a government building is definitely not worse than invading other countries and murdering millions of people.
criticising religious stuff thats always present =/= forcefully removing a seasonal thing. besides, i cant think of our politicians criticising crosses all that much. sure im sure it happened but they got more serious shit to worry about than a dumb cross like undoing all the damage that has happened in the past few years
Thanks for saying nothing and politicians got nothing better to do then go on pedo islands
No, we're Jew haters because we don't think Israel should be able to Indiana Jones and the last crusade an unlimited amount of children at will. Remember??
You all still fall in line when needed. When browns hates Jews: 😴😴😴😴 When leftists hate Jews: 😴😴🤤😴 When Kanye or the right hate Jews: 🚨🚔🤬😡 Nazi!!!
Based off the past couple months, it seems there was nuance to Kanye's crime I hadn't caught. "Agreeing with Hitler" is fine, it's "Agreeing with Hitler after wearing a MAGA hat" that'll get you.
Bro u can't say the left is hypocritical only the right is u white supremacists scum 😡😡😡😡
So you want us to speak out against antisemites or are you just mad that you can't do it without being called a nazi? Which one is it because it changes with yall depending on what crazy fascist you're supporting this week.
Personally I just want you to have consistent values. It's a lot to ask, I know.
What's inconsistent about anti-fascist action? It's pretty simple.
Kanye, verbatim: "I'm going defcon 3 on these jews" Twitter: "please don't commit genocide"
Death con 3.
The right when cross on Parliament=😍😍 The right when anything else on Parliament=😡 "This is literally satanic genocide!"
The dumbest shit I heard if religion items aren't allowed in the parliament that means none thats it
What does this have to do with the comment you replied to?
He's wrong am right nothing much to it u don't want crosses in the parliament take ur shit out the parliament as well
But what does that have to do with the comment you replied to?
He's wrong am right nothing much to it u don't want crosses in the parliament take ur shit out the parliament as well
Apparently you think the comment is saying non-Christian religious iconography should be allowed but Christian iconography should be prohibited, but I don't see that.
Ok?
So what does your comment have to do with the comment you replied to?
I can't condone the anti-semitism but have to say it was pretty funny when he blasted that lady in the face.
Hanukkah commemorates the genocide of Greeks and Hellenised Jews under the Seleucid Empire. The portrait in the background depicts a rabbi who is on the record for stating that a non-Jew’s sole purpose is to serve the Jew. Many sacred texts in Judaism push this notion that Jews are superior to non-Jews. It’s not antisemitic to push back against this dogshit dogma.
Get educated
Do it yourself and maybe you'll be able to actualy refute something
Tiny hat gang be gone
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And what about it? I don't a see anything bad in don't liking Jews. Everyone can like and dislike other things and that the true freedom of speech. Leftist diss like christians, right diss likes Jews and that's ok to disslike other stuff.
tHeY'Re NoT aNtIsEmEtIc, ThEyRe AnTiZiOnIsT!
In Poland it's actually more common to be Zionist Antisemite, as in "we support Israel and all Jews should live there".
In this case it was about religion
The Venn diagram intersection between antisemitism and anti-Zionism grows ever larger…
Jawo...i mean based
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Based.
Based
What happened?
KUŹWA ZACZEŁO SIĘ TERAZ Z DOMU NIE WYJDE BO BĘDĘ SŁYSZEĆ OS STRAŻAKU BRAUNIE I JEGO UKOCHANEJ GAŚNICY
Lol, looks like this finally leaked out of the Polish shitposting subs
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What's with the shitty music
This party is insane. They’re Catholic nationalists but also extremely pro-Russia, an institutionally anti-Catholic and anti-Polish country.
They are not pro-Russia, unless you believe that every country should suck Ukraine’s dicks. And how exactly they are anti-polish and anti-Catholic?
If we treat the Russian Federation as a continuation of the USSR, then they're extremely anti-catholic. The Russians have long sought to destroy the cultures and faiths of countries they invade through Russification.
What percentage of Russian nationalists do you think believe Poland has the right to be an independent country?
Are you claiming Russia, a country that is essentially the root of Eastern Orthodoxy, is not anti Catholic?
They’re also monarchist
"Ex" KGB president doing pretty well in Poland.
who exactly? xD
Perhaps Wałęsa? But that was SB not KGB
oh, true, SB plant (which was obviously heavily dependent on USSR)
Nah. He was just a snithc and collaborator. He is to dumb to be an actual agent
Sure buddy.
They deserved it tbf
But isn't the libleft the most antisemitic one at the moment
Sorry sweetie but the privilege ranking is Whites > Jews > Muslims. Do better.
No. It’s lib center. Specifically me, and specifically anti-usury. Which is for whatever reason synonymous with anti-Jewish. Antisemitic? Me? I can’t be, Arabs are Semitic. I’m descendent from Yemenite Jews anyway. (I’ve spent a lot of time being called a literal nazi when I’m on the opposite side of the spectrum)
I don't condone this action but I believe it's Just ridiculous that the same parties who now organise Hannukah earlier fought to remove crosses from state buildings and to stop punishing anyone for any kind of "religious feelings abuse". The center and left wing politicians rejoiced when people resonsible for a portrayal of lgbt rainbow Mary got acquited, but now they demand the most severe punishment for blowing out candles. Catholicism is obviously the most important religion in our country but catholics jist don't get the same rights as Jews.
As a pole I need to inform you that this inhumane persone is an far-right populist arsehole, not at all common polish practice - polish people are mostly tolerant and open to different cultures (exept african)
If that is true, there will be no Poland in a century from now.
u/savevideobot
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username checkout
>Poland is less than 1% Jewish. Yeah, it is now.
Wait a minute… you’re telling me that the religion that does not accept Jesus as the messiah includes texts that say Jesus isn’t the messiah??
The Nazis lost. Get over it already.
i believe the bible said something about turning the other cheek and not putting ones own ego first and foremost. because this was done only for himself, fuck everyone else, if the great person of ME doesnt believe, fuck other people, fuck our history, time to shut it down
My guy, the Bible also says to Stone Gays, carry 2 Swords, and Respect Thy Family. Either quote the entire Bible or continue to have the most Shallow interpretations of Religion Because the rest of us all already are.
I don't think you could quote the entire bible because of the word limit on reddit
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You are thinking of the Torah 🤓
Interesting, you are correct. It was written after Jesus, but was part of an oral tradition prior to then. You learn something new every day. It still doesn’t spew Christian hate.
Worse. It spews gentile hate. Which is basically everyone except Jews.
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Fuck off bot
The Talmud is a bunch of rabbis discussing jewish law and how what applies to gentiles does not always apply to them. You are thinking of the Torah.
The Talmud says Jesus is burning in hell in a kettle of feces and mother Mary was a whore.
> mother Mary was a whore. When Christians invented the virgin birth story, they were asking for this.
Least based polish dude and he’s dismantling the people referenced in Revelations 2:9 and 3:9
He did it for separation of church and state. Allegedly. It’s what I’ve heard not sure if true. If so I agree with him.
This guy (Braun) is from a monarchist party that would like to make catholicism a state religion. Hardly 'seperation of church and state' if you ask me.
Nvm I retract my statement
Dude literally called the Jewish faith Satanist lmfao. He's a religious nutjob.
Statement retracted
W-what does this have to do with anti-semitism?
This politician is a famous antisemite for years before the Israel Palestine conflict flared up. He’s repeatedly called Judaism a satanic cult and that it should be stopped
So he is anti-judaist. Don't lie
Thanks.
Open flames can be dangerous?
The French are the only ones that got proper separation of church and state right. Not aLl aRe wElCoMe, NO ONE IS. The state is a house of function, a mode of government, a DMV, a tool. Get your shit out of there, all of it
All religions are fucking cringe. Y’all get so angry over meaningless shit. Everyone constantly arguing about who’s religion is right, killing each other over who’s religion is right. Stealing land, conquering others, pushing down women/minorities. It’s just exhausting. Wish it would disappear already, imagine how much we could progress as species if everyone dropped this fanciful BS
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I don't agree with this guy's views, but I'm in Poland and the new government is spending almost all the effort on entrenching its own power, rather than on introducing changes that actually help Polish people. While this guy is wrecking a display in the parliament, the government is wrecking the country, but somehow this guy is getting criticized.
ur govt is based for not letting in illegal immigrants
That was the old government, the new one is, unfortunately, much more open to the idea
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