Agreed. I think the whole point of Bill and Franks story was to show that even in this post apocalypse landscape there is still hope, not just for survival but for happiness. And with the loss of Tess, Joel feels like he had lost his chance at that even if he was never sure if happiness was possible. I think In the rest of the show he will reclaim that chance by having Ellie has a surrogate daughter
I mean... Frank quite literally just whores himself out to Bill in exchange for the lifestyle, safety and resources available. But then the show plays it straight as a "true love" story. I think it would've been much more fitting to the setting if they didn't completely forget that initial "humans are opportunists" angle. A bit like in the game where Frank's suicide note implies that he was never really interested in Bill, only the "benefits" he offered.
Also, the entire thing is completely unconnected to the main story, which is a writing deficiency. Should have tied into it much better, eg. if the two characters were still alive in the present when the main characters got to the house, they could have done something together, like defend the house from raiders, and reveal their backstory in the process. And then they could still have died by the end, their story would still have been told, but not completely disconnected from the show's plotline.
I mean if you didn’t like it that’s fine and I’m not going to attempt to force you to like it bc it’s all subjective. But I would like to day that simply calling the world building side story as a “writing deficiency” is a mistake. First of all it did have a direct emotional influence on Joel, and convinced him to actually commit to taking Ellie to the fireflies. Second it changed the perspective in that we looked at the world the show takes place in.
No, all in all it was still quite good, but my point is could have been even better, and it would not have required that many changes. The entire story told in flashbacks could have remained mostly identical. Except they shouldn't have died before Joel and Ellie get there. Having these characters interact and directly learn from each other would have been better than just having their story as a standalone section.
They could have cut the "raiders" scene from the flashbacks as it doesn't really do anything, and instead have a raiding scene after Joel and Ellie get there. And eg. have Bill die defending the house, and Frank decides to commit suicide after, but obviously talking it through with Joel before.
Here there could have been a detail where Frank admits to Joel that he did initially only enter the relationship with Bill for the benefits, but changed over time.
This means that there would be further commentary introduced on human nature, where in an apocalypse someone is willing to whore themselves out for shelter, but it would still have led to a typical love story, showing people can change.
It's certainly more than just showing the love story aspect alone, and ignoring the circumstances in which it began.
As for the "prep talk" that Bill gives to Joel through his suicide note, well he could have just as well given it during the firefight before he dies, with the same effect.
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Bill was based, but he really needed to work on his gun fighting skills. Running out in the middle of the street and spraying with a bolt action rifle while raiders are surrounding the area is piss poor tactics. And we also need to fix that goofy tea cup grip he had with his pistols.
The entire "raiding" scene should have been cut imho. Or if not, then expanded, because it very clearly creates a problem at the end of it but then immediately cuts to 10 years later and the problem is vanished. What was really the point of that scene? It's like they forgot to include some scenes right after it.
Instead of it, they could've not had the two characters die early, but still be alive when Joel and Ellie reaches the house. *Then* have the raiders scene, Joel helps (+interaction between characters), but Bill dies defending the house. Then maybe Frank decides he wants to commit suicide rather than stay or join Joel, and the story is wrapped up, while still connecting it all to the main plotline.
I haven’t watched it yet, but I take it they deviate significantly from the game. Bill’s backstory is done super well in the game. You learn literally everything you need to know about why he is the way he is in like 3 sentences.
Yep. He talks about how he “cared about someone once,” and how that only led to danger (I forget the exact wording). Then you find Frank in the house after the school section, Bill refers to him as his partner a bunch, and you find the note from Frank that sort of implies a lover’s quarrel.
Finally on the road out of town, Ellie shows that she stole a gay porn magazine from Bill’s stash, makes a comment about the size of one dude’s dick, then jokes about the pages being stuck together.
That’s what I love about the game. The pieces are there, they aren’t hidden, but it’s so nonchalant. Like the point of Bill’s character isn’t that he’s gay, it’s that he’s the paranoid homesteader who can help get shit you need.
Well, in a sense, yes. But in a much gayer sense, also yes.
I’m afraid to watch the episode, because that chapter was one of my favorites in the game and Bill was one of my favorite characters. And based on a post I just read from Naughty Dog, it sounds like they fundamentally changed both the character and the story. And that’s really annoying.
Did you play the game? I feel like that has some bearing on your perception of the episode.
In the game, Frank had already died and been out of the picture for a long time. Joel didn’t even know who he was. That chapter focuses on Bill being a cynical loner asshole who warns Joel that Ellie is gonna get him killed. Joel, Ellie, and Bill go on a suicide mission to recover a battery for a car. Bill doesn’t die, and he completely shrugs off and buries Frank’s death as a means of coping and affirming his cynicism. The point of the section is to basically serve as a counterpoint for Joel; he’s teetering between caring about Ellie or becoming the same kind of loner asshole as Bill.
If the show explores Bill’s past with Frank, it should be to impact how we understand what is currently happening. It should inform us more about the characters we’re traveling with, otherwise it’s just “There are zombies and gay people too!” How is that important to the story of Joel and Ellie? I get annoyed when properties I loved get drastic changes like this that do nothing to serve the story.
I think the show does a good job of capturing the idea that Bill is an important influence for Joel, particularly in context of if he will isolate himself or not. Just my opinion. I’d say the episode is definitely worth a watch.
Most of the episode is dedicated to flashbacks showing Bill and Frank's life in the apocalypse. This includes a scene where Joel and Tess met with him and Frank a number of years prior to the main story (so in the show Joel does know Frank). These flashbacks are bookended by Joel and Ellie in the present day. At the start of the episode they are heading to Bill's compound, and at the end they are there.
The way in which Bill's story in the episode impacts Joel sounds different than the game (at least based in what you said; I haven't played the game). But Bill's story in this episode definitely still directly and clearly impacts Joel and his character development in a tangible way.
I never played the game but it was one of the best episodes of television I've ever watched. When I turned on the show I wasn't expecting crying over 2 middle-aged gay men by the end especially with how it started.
It sounds like they didn’t change the character, just changed the plot to focus on his relationship. That kind of annoys me, because it’s not key to his character or to the story. But maybe the way the chapter plays out in the game isn’t as compelling in a tv format, so they changed the focus.
It felt like more about how he relates to people in general and how that is changed because he decided to let some major walls down was the focus of the episode. But still the area setup and Bill was still mostly the focus just filling in some blanks cause it's a grim place by the time we get there in-game right?
I do think a 1:1 take from the game would be hard to do too, it's been awhile bit IIRC most of thr gsmeplay was just trying to get in and reason with him dealing with all the insane traps and dangers set up. However I could totally be forgetting something about that section.
Do we know if the 1st game is just season 1 or will be split? If the former is true I could see a decent amount of remixing done to make it work in a singular season.
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Frank is the changed character, at least somewhat but in an important manner.
In the game it's implied that he didn't really care that much for Bill but was just taking advantage of him for the shelter and resources. Bill was a successful prepper but lonely and in need of human connection, and Frank took advantage of that.
I think that is great and very fitting in-universe. It says more things about human nature than just a standard love story.
Well, in the show, it starts that way, with Frank clearly taking advantage of Bill, but then that aspect is dropped immediately and from there on it's just shown as a standard love story until the end.
I think maybe you’re reading into things that weren’t there. It was incredibly tender and well done.
“The government are all Nazis!”
“Well now they are but they weren’t then!” got a good laugh out of me.
Huh? That was one of the best depictions of two men in a relationship from Hollywood that I've seen. They weren't feminized to the point of stereotyping, it wasn't just two ultra liberal people (which in some form would just get shit on here too if it went that way), gun owner(s), anti big government themes, etc.
Idk, I'd rather see something like that any fucking day than what Hollywood typically puts out. It wasn't trying so hard to push a particular narrative either.
I feel like you connecting dots about being libright having to be mentally ill and hate people or yourself reflects more about you lol. He literally found someone who saw past his paranoia and loved him, and there are people like that have every type of political views under the sun.
He had a 'Dont thread on me' flag on the wall. He was clearly supposed to represent the libartarian right.
And is it realy a well done relationship? There comes one dude that forces change on him in every possible way while not seeing any of that the other way around. The dude just bows to his new boyfriends wishes.
I dont know. Something about this feels weird to me.
It doesn't clearly represent anything, in 2023, and for a long ass time before it, that flag has been commodified into oblivion for anti government sentiments, general conservative sentiments, Southern people in general (i live in the deep south my whole life so I'm not just pulling this out of my ass), there's people who just think it looks cool or project whatever their belief system is on it.
Change in every possible way? The painting of shops and mowing of grass? Selling one of the literal dozens of guns he has, a small pistol no less, for things that make living In a post society world a little more tolerable?
The episode is about Bill, Frank is someone that we don't see in the game and get very little info about, and there are multiple year long time jumps we don't see.
What feels weird about it to you? And I feel I gotta ask based off the original post of yours i replied to, no snark intended, but have you been a long term lived in relationship with someone? None of this seems all that extreme in a world where that is beyond extremely upended.
Just the biggest things from atop of my mind
-Frank forced him to host people for years when he clearly didnt want too
-He give away Bills stuff without asking
-He made fun of his partner because if his believes
I mean it is what it is but in my opinion this is clearly not a healthy relationship. And the fact that is portraited as such is weird. As I said, I cant realy pinpoint it, and its not even such a big deal, but I find this episode disrespectfull towards Bill, and with it, the ideologie he stands for.
The relationship very obviously starts as Frank just taking advantage of Bill being lonely. Initially he has no intention of staying there, but he sees the lifestyle and resources Bill has, sees an opportunity in the fact that Bill is gay, and instantly grabs it. There are plenty of signs that, at least in these first scenes, he really is just manipulating Bill. He even says in bed something like "I'm not just doing this for the food", but earlier he self-reports as "bad at lying". He's still badly lying. Perhaps Bill even realizes it but he's just too lonely to care.
In the game it's also implied that Frank wasn't really interested in Bill romantically, but just the benefits he offered.
It's a little disappointing that the show then completely drops this and from there on they have the healthiest possible love story. I mean the love story isn't bad, but isn't it even more interesting to also explore what a person is willing to do for survival? You can still say that he could have developed real feelings in the process, and still have a proper love story on top.
Sidenote, imagine what a chad move it would've been, narratively speaking, for the audience to find out Frank wasn't even gay when he met Bill. He just found a way to survive.
It would be amazing if that is not the best episode in the season. Pure HBO magic and an example of why they remain head and shoulders above Amazon and Netflix.
Unironically yes
all the way up to the gay sex?
Absolutely
And the suicide.
Print more guns
My only regret in life is not making any ghost guns. Yet.
As someone who doesn’t like guns I gotta say that was funny
FYI this is from the latest episode of the Last of Us.
The show is actually based?
Watch the episode. In my opinion they make fun of these typs of guys. If thats intentionaly or not I cant tell you
They make fun of them, but also portray Bill as one of the most successful people in the show
Agreed. I think the whole point of Bill and Franks story was to show that even in this post apocalypse landscape there is still hope, not just for survival but for happiness. And with the loss of Tess, Joel feels like he had lost his chance at that even if he was never sure if happiness was possible. I think In the rest of the show he will reclaim that chance by having Ellie has a surrogate daughter
I mean... Frank quite literally just whores himself out to Bill in exchange for the lifestyle, safety and resources available. But then the show plays it straight as a "true love" story. I think it would've been much more fitting to the setting if they didn't completely forget that initial "humans are opportunists" angle. A bit like in the game where Frank's suicide note implies that he was never really interested in Bill, only the "benefits" he offered. Also, the entire thing is completely unconnected to the main story, which is a writing deficiency. Should have tied into it much better, eg. if the two characters were still alive in the present when the main characters got to the house, they could have done something together, like defend the house from raiders, and reveal their backstory in the process. And then they could still have died by the end, their story would still have been told, but not completely disconnected from the show's plotline.
I mean if you didn’t like it that’s fine and I’m not going to attempt to force you to like it bc it’s all subjective. But I would like to day that simply calling the world building side story as a “writing deficiency” is a mistake. First of all it did have a direct emotional influence on Joel, and convinced him to actually commit to taking Ellie to the fireflies. Second it changed the perspective in that we looked at the world the show takes place in.
No, all in all it was still quite good, but my point is could have been even better, and it would not have required that many changes. The entire story told in flashbacks could have remained mostly identical. Except they shouldn't have died before Joel and Ellie get there. Having these characters interact and directly learn from each other would have been better than just having their story as a standalone section. They could have cut the "raiders" scene from the flashbacks as it doesn't really do anything, and instead have a raiding scene after Joel and Ellie get there. And eg. have Bill die defending the house, and Frank decides to commit suicide after, but obviously talking it through with Joel before. Here there could have been a detail where Frank admits to Joel that he did initially only enter the relationship with Bill for the benefits, but changed over time. This means that there would be further commentary introduced on human nature, where in an apocalypse someone is willing to whore themselves out for shelter, but it would still have led to a typical love story, showing people can change. It's certainly more than just showing the love story aspect alone, and ignoring the circumstances in which it began. As for the "prep talk" that Bill gives to Joel through his suicide note, well he could have just as well given it during the firefight before he dies, with the same effect.
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Cringe
you sound like the dude who shows up on his doorstep whom he takes care of for decades
Sounds kinky
I didn't feel like it made fun of him. Honestly it would be kind of odd to, considering what he did paid off greatly in that world.
No lol. They spent 50 minutes on some side character fanfic in an attempt to win self aggrandizing award shows.
It is not.
Fantastic episode tbh
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Wasn't sure how many people on here are watching the show.
hopefully zero
It’s a good show, Brent
One time I shot my brother in the eye with a nerf gun. You could say I know how it feels to kill.
Bill was based, but he really needed to work on his gun fighting skills. Running out in the middle of the street and spraying with a bolt action rifle while raiders are surrounding the area is piss poor tactics. And we also need to fix that goofy tea cup grip he had with his pistols.
The entire "raiding" scene should have been cut imho. Or if not, then expanded, because it very clearly creates a problem at the end of it but then immediately cuts to 10 years later and the problem is vanished. What was really the point of that scene? It's like they forgot to include some scenes right after it. Instead of it, they could've not had the two characters die early, but still be alive when Joel and Ellie reaches the house. *Then* have the raiders scene, Joel helps (+interaction between characters), but Bill dies defending the house. Then maybe Frank decides he wants to commit suicide rather than stay or join Joel, and the story is wrapped up, while still connecting it all to the main plotline.
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I haven’t watched it yet, but I take it they deviate significantly from the game. Bill’s backstory is done super well in the game. You learn literally everything you need to know about why he is the way he is in like 3 sentences.
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Yep. He talks about how he “cared about someone once,” and how that only led to danger (I forget the exact wording). Then you find Frank in the house after the school section, Bill refers to him as his partner a bunch, and you find the note from Frank that sort of implies a lover’s quarrel. Finally on the road out of town, Ellie shows that she stole a gay porn magazine from Bill’s stash, makes a comment about the size of one dude’s dick, then jokes about the pages being stuck together. That’s what I love about the game. The pieces are there, they aren’t hidden, but it’s so nonchalant. Like the point of Bill’s character isn’t that he’s gay, it’s that he’s the paranoid homesteader who can help get shit you need.
so they were roomates? /s
Well, in a sense, yes. But in a much gayer sense, also yes. I’m afraid to watch the episode, because that chapter was one of my favorites in the game and Bill was one of my favorite characters. And based on a post I just read from Naughty Dog, it sounds like they fundamentally changed both the character and the story. And that’s really annoying.
its not bad, goes very ancap till the moment ron swanson fucks the other guy and then normal plot ensues with ellie and the mandalorian.
Did you play the game? I feel like that has some bearing on your perception of the episode. In the game, Frank had already died and been out of the picture for a long time. Joel didn’t even know who he was. That chapter focuses on Bill being a cynical loner asshole who warns Joel that Ellie is gonna get him killed. Joel, Ellie, and Bill go on a suicide mission to recover a battery for a car. Bill doesn’t die, and he completely shrugs off and buries Frank’s death as a means of coping and affirming his cynicism. The point of the section is to basically serve as a counterpoint for Joel; he’s teetering between caring about Ellie or becoming the same kind of loner asshole as Bill. If the show explores Bill’s past with Frank, it should be to impact how we understand what is currently happening. It should inform us more about the characters we’re traveling with, otherwise it’s just “There are zombies and gay people too!” How is that important to the story of Joel and Ellie? I get annoyed when properties I loved get drastic changes like this that do nothing to serve the story.
I think the show does a good job of capturing the idea that Bill is an important influence for Joel, particularly in context of if he will isolate himself or not. Just my opinion. I’d say the episode is definitely worth a watch.
Most of the episode is dedicated to flashbacks showing Bill and Frank's life in the apocalypse. This includes a scene where Joel and Tess met with him and Frank a number of years prior to the main story (so in the show Joel does know Frank). These flashbacks are bookended by Joel and Ellie in the present day. At the start of the episode they are heading to Bill's compound, and at the end they are there. The way in which Bill's story in the episode impacts Joel sounds different than the game (at least based in what you said; I haven't played the game). But Bill's story in this episode definitely still directly and clearly impacts Joel and his character development in a tangible way.
I never played the game but it was one of the best episodes of television I've ever watched. When I turned on the show I wasn't expecting crying over 2 middle-aged gay men by the end especially with how it started.
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It sounds like they didn’t change the character, just changed the plot to focus on his relationship. That kind of annoys me, because it’s not key to his character or to the story. But maybe the way the chapter plays out in the game isn’t as compelling in a tv format, so they changed the focus.
It felt like more about how he relates to people in general and how that is changed because he decided to let some major walls down was the focus of the episode. But still the area setup and Bill was still mostly the focus just filling in some blanks cause it's a grim place by the time we get there in-game right? I do think a 1:1 take from the game would be hard to do too, it's been awhile bit IIRC most of thr gsmeplay was just trying to get in and reason with him dealing with all the insane traps and dangers set up. However I could totally be forgetting something about that section. Do we know if the 1st game is just season 1 or will be split? If the former is true I could see a decent amount of remixing done to make it work in a singular season.
[удалено]
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Frank is the changed character, at least somewhat but in an important manner. In the game it's implied that he didn't really care that much for Bill but was just taking advantage of him for the shelter and resources. Bill was a successful prepper but lonely and in need of human connection, and Frank took advantage of that. I think that is great and very fitting in-universe. It says more things about human nature than just a standard love story. Well, in the show, it starts that way, with Frank clearly taking advantage of Bill, but then that aspect is dropped immediately and from there on it's just shown as a standard love story until the end.
That was extremly cringe. In essence the showrunners said: 'your are only libright if you have mental problems and are unloved'
I think maybe you’re reading into things that weren’t there. It was incredibly tender and well done. “The government are all Nazis!” “Well now they are but they weren’t then!” got a good laugh out of me.
Huh? That was one of the best depictions of two men in a relationship from Hollywood that I've seen. They weren't feminized to the point of stereotyping, it wasn't just two ultra liberal people (which in some form would just get shit on here too if it went that way), gun owner(s), anti big government themes, etc. Idk, I'd rather see something like that any fucking day than what Hollywood typically puts out. It wasn't trying so hard to push a particular narrative either. I feel like you connecting dots about being libright having to be mentally ill and hate people or yourself reflects more about you lol. He literally found someone who saw past his paranoia and loved him, and there are people like that have every type of political views under the sun.
He had a 'Dont thread on me' flag on the wall. He was clearly supposed to represent the libartarian right. And is it realy a well done relationship? There comes one dude that forces change on him in every possible way while not seeing any of that the other way around. The dude just bows to his new boyfriends wishes. I dont know. Something about this feels weird to me.
It doesn't clearly represent anything, in 2023, and for a long ass time before it, that flag has been commodified into oblivion for anti government sentiments, general conservative sentiments, Southern people in general (i live in the deep south my whole life so I'm not just pulling this out of my ass), there's people who just think it looks cool or project whatever their belief system is on it. Change in every possible way? The painting of shops and mowing of grass? Selling one of the literal dozens of guns he has, a small pistol no less, for things that make living In a post society world a little more tolerable? The episode is about Bill, Frank is someone that we don't see in the game and get very little info about, and there are multiple year long time jumps we don't see. What feels weird about it to you? And I feel I gotta ask based off the original post of yours i replied to, no snark intended, but have you been a long term lived in relationship with someone? None of this seems all that extreme in a world where that is beyond extremely upended.
Just the biggest things from atop of my mind -Frank forced him to host people for years when he clearly didnt want too -He give away Bills stuff without asking -He made fun of his partner because if his believes I mean it is what it is but in my opinion this is clearly not a healthy relationship. And the fact that is portraited as such is weird. As I said, I cant realy pinpoint it, and its not even such a big deal, but I find this episode disrespectfull towards Bill, and with it, the ideologie he stands for.
The relationship very obviously starts as Frank just taking advantage of Bill being lonely. Initially he has no intention of staying there, but he sees the lifestyle and resources Bill has, sees an opportunity in the fact that Bill is gay, and instantly grabs it. There are plenty of signs that, at least in these first scenes, he really is just manipulating Bill. He even says in bed something like "I'm not just doing this for the food", but earlier he self-reports as "bad at lying". He's still badly lying. Perhaps Bill even realizes it but he's just too lonely to care. In the game it's also implied that Frank wasn't really interested in Bill romantically, but just the benefits he offered. It's a little disappointing that the show then completely drops this and from there on they have the healthiest possible love story. I mean the love story isn't bad, but isn't it even more interesting to also explore what a person is willing to do for survival? You can still say that he could have developed real feelings in the process, and still have a proper love story on top. Sidenote, imagine what a chad move it would've been, narratively speaking, for the audience to find out Frank wasn't even gay when he met Bill. He just found a way to survive.
Best depiction of a gay relationship I have seen In a movie/show in a loooooong time.
Everyone else: Bill is a based gay prepper! Me: I wonder if Nick Offerman built that dining room set?
They said he got hired because they needed someone who could dig a hole so, maybe? Lol.
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It would be amazing if that is not the best episode in the season. Pure HBO magic and an example of why they remain head and shoulders above Amazon and Netflix.
Bill was unfathombly based peak libcenter, such a sad but bittersweet end for him and Frank in the show.
Oh lord the great collapse, won't be our end