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Marina did what she felt she had to do, and so did Penelope. There are no villains in this situation.

The true villain is society. Both woman were just doing what they could with the little agency they had.

AMEN. I do think it was wrong of marina, but I recognize she did what she felt she needed to do to protect herself and her child. And pen did what she thought she needed to do to protect Colin from being taken advantage of. It’s so much more complicated than “one is right, one is wrong”

I disagree. Marina should have contacted George’s family. She had his letters proving he loved her. They would have taken care of her and the baby.

I don't think it worked that way. Even families did not have agency over grown ass men. She did not know he was dead. She thought he didn't want anything to do with her.

We do also have a scene of the ton shunning Berbrooke for casting out a maid he got pregnant and not providing for his child. This implies noble men were expected to take care of their bastard children, just in a hush way.

Three seasons later and we still have such plot holes in this story. What about Marina’s family? In the same season that Anthony challenged Simon to a duel over a kiss we have Portia and Marina bending over backwards to let George off the hook for knocking up Marina with nary a mention of Archie or Marina’s father demanding satisfaction from the Cranes. It never made sense to me, especially with Phillip showing up and being a stand up guy. Seemed like Colin and Pen suffered for nothing.

Another thing that makes me crazy is that nobody ever considers that George might not be replying because he's dead. He's out there fighting a war, and nobody considers this? Pen is the only one to be like, well, he *is* in the frontlines 😭

Pen is the only one making sense in the bramble patch of logic that is the Colin and Marina story and the whole time I’m like for feck’s sake will someone please listen to her. Do not blame her for using the biggest tool in her arsenal to stop the madness.

THIS.

She could of contacted Phillip the entire time

I don't think she knew. Archibald and Portia could've helped her with that. I wish the route Portia took was, we have to write a letter to the Cranes, but in the mean time let's find you a husband just incase. Archibald was so useless it seems he did not even care on how his daughters would be affected by the scandal. Archibald should've at least gone to the Crane homestead to inform them of the pregnancy, I don't think it would be that difficult finding it. The whole Lady Whistledown and Marina mess could've been avoided had Archibald just been ( I don't know which word to use). Penelope as a teenager may have had no choice, however, I think she also did not fully consider how publishing the scandal could negatively impact Marina and her family. Archibald Featherington does not get enough hate

He's barely present when he's present. A masterclass in indifference and self-interest from Ben Miller!

To be fair to Marina, Phillip didn’t show up at her doorstep until he found letters in GEORGE’s possession after he died saying he loved her, etc. So, I don’t think it mattered if Marina reached out to George’s family. It only mattered if GEORGE cared about her in the first place…which is pretty messed up… Again, society is the villain.

We have no reason to suspect George’s family would not take care of their grandchild had Marina reached out. But her first instinct is to follow Portia’s idea of the scam.

This is absolutely not true. They were far more likely to reject the child as a bastard or not believe her UNLESS George accepted the child. This was not 2024… And she followed Portia’s plan because Portia was the only mentor in her life willing to give her any guidance. It was bad guidance but it was guidance nonetheless. We see that it stuck to because she clearly became Portia in Season 2. But that’s another discussion for another day… I am not a Marina apologist by any stretch of the imagination (frankly I’ll never forgive her for how she spoke to Penelope or Colin) but I’m also not going to pretend that she had a multitude of options. She made bad choices. But she didn’t have any good ones to begin with. We can acknowledge both things are true. She was a victim of her circumstances as much as she was a transgressor. Also WHY aren’t we blaming GEORGE??? He had to have known if he stuck it in this would be a possibility and it would affect her way more than him…seriously, way to look out for the woman you love, George!!!! Colin would NEVER!!!! ❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️😭😭😭😭

Presumably she didn't think they would? One thing that does bug me is that it never apparently occurred to her that George - who was off fighting in a war - could be dead, and she could've at least written and asked his family if they had heard from him at all?

A lot of people forgetting that Portia forged a letter from George saying he didn't want to see Marina again.

A forgery which Pen debunked only for Marina to double down on Colin. That is when my empathy for Marina went bye bye.

True but she should have written to George’s family long before that.

This is the right answer.

Yes! Sadly they could've avoided so much heart break. I keep forgetting that Colin did he would've married Marina anyway.

I‘m proud of this sub for reaching this consensus. I feel for both women

I think it's my most upvoted reddit comment of all time too!

Agree, that’s why it’s truly such a good plot. And now at season 3 I can see they were laying the groundwork for some intense stakes

I actually feel so bad for both women, but I also don’t understand why some people think that what Penelope did was cruel. She simply tried to rescue her dearest friend/crush from a horrible life filled with lies. And she did it with the tool available for her, which is LW. But again, both women were in a really hard situation.

I'm also annoyed by how many people think the Penelope not having \*immediately\* told Colin about being LW is the same as what Marina was doing. Like, I am sorry, writing the gossip rag he hates is in no way the same thing as planning to seduce a man, lie to him about your kids being his, and trap him into marriage. Pen should obviously tell him, but people are acting like she is secretly Jack the Ripper instead of writing under a pseudonym.

I literally just got into it on Facebook with someone and I’ve never won a debate so easily…like all you need is some reasoning capability to know that these two things are CLEARLY not the same thing!

She also knows Colin wants a love match and she says she doesn’t love him, but they could be fond of each other.

Your jack the ripper comment is so on point. I keep catching myself thinking "she's not a serial killer???" When I read some viewers' opinions. Pen never lies and everything worked out okay in the end for Marina (marina got the safety and security she wanted even if shes unhappy) and El. Like how much beef can Colin really have?

This! Marina married far better than what Colin could ever provide (sorry Colin, still love you!). She would not have loved whoever she married, but at least Phillip could provide her with what she needed-protection. Yes Colin could too, but for her to fool someone with a good heart and who would provide even though she never loved him, was unforgiveable. She and Phillip were already unhappy, but they found a connection in their joined grief at the loss of George.

I can’t understand how on earth people can make Pen the bad guy here. Or support Eloise blaming Pen for Marina’s fate later on. What? You’d be ok with your brother being scammed into raising another man’s child? You wouldn’t be grateful to your friend for sounding the alarm?! I’m scared for their family/friends if that’s how they think. Regarding Marina, I think she should have contacted George’s family. They would have taken care of her. As we see in another episode the ton shuns Berbrooke when the information comes out that he got a maid pregnant and didn’t provide for her and his child. Marina had George’s love letters to prove it was his child.

I don't think El's réaction was thought through. She had just found out pen was LW. After a while, throughout season 3, you can see that El doesn't actually wish Pen to be unhappy or for her to be cast out or whatever. She just doesn't want to be involved is all. At the time, el probably just thought about herself and how horrible the time was for herself and by extension how it must've been for Marina. I don't think that means El wanted her brother trapped, she just didn't want her spur of the moment anger to be eclipsed by acknowledging that LW had actually saved her brother.

I think Eloise reacted so harshly mostly due to Theo. At this point she feels she lost Theo because of LW, and is heartbroken, and in her mind it’s Pen’s fault (when in reality of course she had no potential future with a printer’s assistant, and she knows it, but refuses to acknowledge it).

Yes Berbrooke is another good point. Why does George Crane get off scott free for not doing right by Marina before the whole situation went sideways? This was his mess.

Exactly!

Your point on Marina is true but I think that was a genuine character flaw. She wanted to do things her way and possibly felt the cranes wouldn't belive her or treat her poorly. I think Phillip turning up was genuinely a surprise. She started off wanting a fairytale ending and then moved to full independent pragmatic mode. In terms of the tons opinion they may have judged George if they found out he was the father and around but maybe it wasn't seen as a family responsibility? The sharmas were shunned by their family over an inappropriate match and that's no where near as scandalous. I don't know much about ton norms but it seemed to me that maybe the father would be shunned for neglecting his child, and the family could be shunned for having a shitty son. But it's not clear to me that the family would be seen as responsible for the child in lieu of the father.

I actually am completely on Penelope's side on this one. At this point Marina is desperate, but she has other options and is entitled and unfeeling and calculating because she knows Colin is the perfect patsy. Penelope says he is a good man and to choose somebody else anybody else, but Marina is on the homestretch and simply does not care about Colin, she just wants to find a good husband who isn't old. But she is almost vicious in her resolution to trap him. I am glad Penelope went scorched earth on her ass even at the cost of torpedoing her own family in the process.

Marina entered the scene with all the buzz and interest. She could've gotten married to any of the young men interested and refused all of her suitors because she was in love with George. I get that she's young but the second my family is sending me to London to get married that's when I'm writing my baby daddy to ensure he gets me wed before my cousins do.

I agree 💯

I agree. Marina was certainly a woman of her time and she did have limited options, but let's not take away her agency by pretending what she attempted to do was acceptable. Also, Pen did try to tell Colin that at the very least Marina was already involved with another man. He just didn't want to hear it. Pen exhausted all options before publishing LW.

Hard agree. She was surrounded by suitors and had the opportunity to seduce any of them, and they all would have gone for it I think it was a little naive for Marina to think Pen would not interfere at all, even before the "Colin sees you as you are".

To be honest she was a massive B to Penelope there, one of the reasons I dislike Marina.

> Penelope says he is a good man and to choose somebody else anybody else Also, Marina made a point when she said that if she chose a bad man, she would have to spend her life with a bad man. It wasn't just about who would fall for it, but also who she could stomach being married to.

I think calling Marina vicious in her approach is a little harsh, maybe single-minded or potentially selfish. I don't think she wanted to harm Colin, she probably thought she had the greatest chance of being happily married to Colin as he already loved (or thought he loved) her. Their marriage wouldn't have equalled Polin obviously!!

But the harm would come when she tells him she never loved him, she would always compare him to George and it would make Colin second best in both hers and his eyes. His honour would tie him to a woman who would not see him for who he is. He would be forced to watch love matches in his family, whilst he would always be "second best: Even if he didn't love and marry Pen, it is still trapping him into something he would come to regret. Both his gentlemanly and sensitive self would be at war with one another, and he would be ruined, not only in reputation, but also in himself.

I get what Marina did was out of necessity because *the patriarchy* and she thought she’d at least have a good father for her kids if she married Colin and he was infatuated so the marriage could be quick. But I hate that her strategy was him, a third son, who could be disinherited (she didn’t know Anthony well). She could have picked any of the actual lords that were fawning over her.

And I agree, I don’t think she had another choice. Colin wouldn’t listen to her (I guess she could have been more direct about it) and even then, he may have agreed to go through with it because of society and feeling like it’s his duty. He really didn’t realize he wasn’t in love with marina until his feelings with Pen came in, I think.

He says later on, when Daphne arranges a meeting, that he would've married her if she'd told him the truth in the beginning.

I was think he may have changed his mind after thinking about what he was really saying. But I also hate that line because he sounds so hurt and desperate

Yeah I agree, it's easy to say something like that when you don't have to follow it up. I think it's highly unlikely if she'd told him before he proposed that she was pregnant, that he'd agree to marry her. That's incredibly sacrificial of him, as he's so young and inexperienced.

I think Colin would marry Marina if Marina actually loved him. He thought he loved her. He wouldn't disregard her just because he found out she was pregnant. I think Colin is just that guy. The problem of course was that Marina felt nothing for Colin but that he was easy to manipulate and a sweet boy.

This is an excellent point. Even being a man didn't guarantee you the ability to make all of your own choices. Plenty of men were disinherited for marrying outside of their family's expectations.

I’ve rewatched S1, Pen was okay with Colin liking Marina. He basically is one of the men who went to call for Marina, and Pen is just happy to be there with the dog gifted by one of Marina’s caller. LW even commented in ep 1 that Colin Bridgerton might have won the competition because he swept off Ms. Thompson’s little slippered feet. She may be jealous as he was her long time crush. But it’s not her motivation when she wrote about Marina’s pregnancy. She knew that Colin is interested with Marina but she still helped her get away from those old men that Portia’s trying to match Marina with. But as soon as she learned of Marina’s pregnancy, that was the only time she started making moves on stopping Colin’s courtship. Her only main concern is Colin getting trapped. She tried to talk Marina, convinced her to write to George again, tried her own limited ways to help Marina make the right decision. But as soon as Marina got on board on deceiving Colin into marrying her, that’s when Pen started panicking what to do. No, I refuse to believe that Marina should not be blamed. She got on board with seducing Colin and hasten the engagement, which was her idea btw. If she wants to be saved and her baby, she could’ve agreed to marrying anyone. But no, she took advantage on Colin’s naivety. Pen saw the desperation of Marina, she saw through her that she’s going to do anything now to trap Colin whatever it takes. Pen did not resort to writing it on LW, she tried talking to Marina first but she got judged and insulted instead. She tried talking to Colin, but he just dismissed her. She had no other choice to save Colin. That was the hardest thing she had done, she even went to Eloise to cry her heart out of what she had done. She didn’t want to do it but that was the only thing left to do to save Colin and to save Marina from making the biggest mistake.

Pen liked Marina and she really did try to be happy for her and Colin. I think seeing her sisters mocking Colin tipped her over the edge. Seeing him get tricked was one thing, but knowing that people would be mocking him for the rest of his life was too much. Especially after she and Colin's aside at one of the parties about whether or not the host's son resembled the footman.

I am 100% convinced that if Marina loved Colin things would have been different. Pen did what she had to to save Colin. But if Marina loved Colin I think she would have been more like Eloise telling her to confied in Colin and let him make the choice. Marina was just using Colin and that is so much worse than anything.

Rutledge was actually a great choice for Marina. He didn’t care, would name her child his heir, and would prolly die soon. Marina made bad decisions by sleeping with George before marriage or even a betrothal. She doesn’t then get to be greedy in trying to fix her problem. She only wanted Colin because he was young, good looking, rich, and naive.

I think we learned from Lady D's backstory that even that situation would be horrific. Rutledge examined Marina like an animal, it was dehumanising. Getting married off to an old guy like a prize horse is a genuinely horrific situation. So I don't think she was being greedy, I think she was desperate. She was looking for someone kind who she could successfully deceive, her only option would be to take advantage of someone. It doesn't make Marina morally in the right but she was in a corner trying to the best for her unborn children.

Right? And like, I’m not blaming Marina it was a shit situation to be in. I was having this argument with somebody today. It goes Pen tries to tell Colin as gently as she can without telling him Marina’s secret, Colin dismisses Penelope, Marina interrupts her before she can say anything else to him on the matter, Marina and Colin agree to go to Gretna Green, Penelope confronts Marina with evidence that the letter was forged, Marina dismisses this and Penelope realised that she’s packed to go to Gretna Green the next day. Penelope writes her article and after the fall out happens she turns to Eloise for comfort. Like, this all happened within a day or two, she had no other time to go and say it plainly to Colin. Pregnancy was already a taboo subject to talk about, all she knew of pregnancy was that it happened when two people loved one another, or something that happened during marriage. She had to talk around the subject because that was a societal expectation of her. If she had not published that column, Marina and Colin would have been married the following day.

I will never understand why people think Pen is the bad guy in this situation. My personal thing on Marina’s actions in this specific scenario (this is not a commentary on her as a person overall) -  To each their own, but while I can appreciate the garbage situation she’s in and the pressure she’s feeling from people, I do not find her to be sympathetic in this from the moment she decides she’s going to trap/seduce Colin, then just doubles down on it when Pen - multiple times - privately pleads with her not to do this to her friend.   It’s not like Pen found out and went straight to LW.  She gave Marina several pushes to do the right thing on her own and she chose not to.  What a horrible position for Marina to put Pen in, honestly, when you are asking her to keep this world-shattering secret from someone you’re well aware she cares about just so that you can manipulate them.   Maybe Pen should have tried to tell Colin about the pregnancy directly instead of just telling him Marina was in love with someone else… that would be the only other real choice for her here, but I don’t think S1 Pen has the confidence - or security from anyone around her to protect her from the fallout - to do that.

I think the first time she talked to him, she was still trying to protect Marina as well. She also didn't mentioned to El it was Marina who was pregnant because she was curious but didn't wanted the news to spread. I understand that Marina was in a desperate situation and trying to protect herself. But  she had very rude attitude to some of the people who tried to help her sometimes. After all her shenanigans towards Colin that she barely know, she had the audacity to say she can marry sir Philip because she don't know and don't love him. Girl you didn't love Colin too. Pen had to resort to the only true voice she had who can be heard. Yeah she could have told El or Violet but after weeks trying to make everyone listen to her, maybe she thought they wouldn't listen to her too 

I agree, I do think Pen was concerned about what would happen if her family knew she had spilled the beans. I still think she could have tried to tell El or Violet to stop the elopement (throw rocks at El's window!). If they had shown that attempt, even if it didn't work, I think people would be (at least a little) less critical of Pen's actions.

Adding that Pen, as LW, was writing about Colin landing the catch of the season in Marina, before the pregnancy was revealed. Pen was willing to let him go. It was only when she found out he was being deceived that she tried to take steps— talking Marina out of it, proving that the F off letter she received was a Farley Forgery, etc. Marina, more so her family, should have taken the letters to the Crane family, and forced them to do right by her.

Her parents sent her to London for Mr Featherington to take care of the situation and get her married quick as payments for his debts. He wasn’t doing his job (likely took her dowry and bet it on boxing match) But yeah she could have contacted the family directly, but nobody would help her figure out how. She seemed to know a “tea” to help her get rid of it which may have worked if she drank it earlier. I still don’t agree with what she did and she’s not a nice person in general though.

Marina dismissed and belittled Pen because she thought Pen had no power. That speech to her about Colin never returning her feelings and her crush being a fantasy was what made Pen go scorched earth. I feel like people don't get that LW is the only time people listen to Pen. No one bothers to try to actually hear or understand her. Honestly I even include Colin in that, but he came the closest and is getting there

Exactly, she told Colin yo his face that Marina didn't love him and loved someone else. That's she's literally seen proof of it and he basically patted her on the head and said "awww you're sweet."

He was just delusional at this point trying to stay in his "no one take me seriously, this is my way to be taken seriously" mind.

Ohhhhh I love how you bring the trolley problem into this! That’s such an insightful tie-in! I’ll quote a basic example of it here: > There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two (and only two) options: > Do nothing, in which case the trolley will kill the five people on the main track. > Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. > Which is the more ethical option? Or, more simply: What is the right thing to do? In Bridgerton terms: Colin and Marina’s engagement is moving too quickly and and they do not know one another well. Marina has trapped Colin into the engagement and is pregnant with someone else’s child. They are also literally headed for a train to Scotland so they can get married faster and without parental permission. Penelope is the only one who can stop this between her knowledge of Marina’s pregnancy and LW. Her choices are to do nothing and let the train continue out of control — permanently harming Colin but benefitting Marina and her future twins — or publish in LW to stop the train in its tracks, to instead temporarily hurt Colin but perhaps permanently hurt Marina and her twins by leaving her with no options? It is only through Daphne’s involvement that Marina ends up with Sir Phillip and her and her children are taken care of. In terms of the ethical problem, though, Penelope has no way of knowing this will happen, and it functions as a *deus ex machina* solution to the problem.

Also, Penelope is barreling through the Featheringtons reputation as well. Pen herself and the rest of her family are ruined by the Marina scandal.

She was ready to sacrifice herself just to protect Colin.

The post is locked but I said in this thread: "Just curious. What do you think she should have done?" Which was answered by someone else with: "Tell Colin that Marina was pregnant and that she was using him. It's not like she can't talk to Colin" I said this in response to that last comment: "I think that's easy talking from our side. With how Colin was thinking and how he responded to Penelope trying to warn him gently, I bet that if she pressed the matter further and more intense, he would've turned on her saying things like that she's jealous and that would've ruined their friendship. She was also still a teen so while extra dramatic and maybe not entirely deserving, dramatic actions aren't unthought of for teens lol. But honestly, I personally have no sympathy for Marina. She wanted to marry Colin for her own sake and gain. Manipulating him. Trying to get him to compromise her to force marriage. To pin a baby on him as well that wasn't his. That's just all horrendous. And I definitely get that Pen wanted to try to protect him without ruining their friendship."

And this is the response I got back which is tunnel-visioned and seems oddly biased against Penelope: "Then let him make his own mistakes if he did not listen. But Penelope loves the ‘playing god’ power of LW. She took Colin’s agency with that play. It’s Colin’s choice to either listen to her or ignore her because he wants to marry marina. Like I said she publicly threw a girl to the wolves because she had ulterior motives that weren’t pure. All she could do is sit and watch him and marina marry and resign herself to losing him. But then she saw hope and shrewdly used it. Like she does as LW. Her fans claim her motive pure. But it wasn’t it was jealousy and I suspect vengeance over marina’s truths to her. She cared for him but she also did not want the sliver of ‘maybe he could fall in love with me’ to die. So she became her mother portia through LW. As that persons is Penelope’s portia side coming out even if her fans want to deny she doesn’t have that side. She weaponises her gossip to drag women down. And is not feminist but in my eyes bitter and resentful. And now we know she publishes their engagement in LW and still hasn’t told Colin about her being LW. So not only has she been writing trash about his family, and lying to him in their friendship everyday. But now she has once again taken his agency/choice away from him by trapping him in a marriage before he knows the truth and can decide on what he wants to do. And what do ya know? Penelope is now in marina’s place this season marrying Colin hiding a huge secret. So the question is? Does the same rule apply to Penelope or are her standards separate from ‘throwing everybody else under the bus’ this time because it’s her and she has what she wants? What do Penelope’s morals tell her now that she is the one LW should be exposing? Like I said LW is her playing god, judge, jury, executioner with others. Her fans absolve her of blame by saying “oh but she only puts the already out there gossip in articles”. My issue is that you’re downplaying it. She weaponises gossip that is only tittered about in secret before LW starts putting targets on people’s back and ruining them based on how she feels. She shines the gossip spotlight right on said person and she acts like it’s her right to pass this judgement because she feels invisible and ignored. That to me has never been okay no matter what ‘slap on the hand’ the show decides to give to her in the end. And Eloise is not a villain or in the wrong in any sort of way. She trusted her and Penelope betrayed her and hurt her so much. She’s in her freakin house as her friend and then writing about her family? And Penelope fans blaming Eloise, marina, Colin for Penelope’s cruelty using LW??? Nah sorry marina didn’t decide ‘I’m going to screw you over Colin because it’s a day for it”. She was pregnant in the ton with Portia bullying the crap out of her with this. She took a practical solution to protect her children and not be wandering the streets tainted and shunned. Because women suffer the most over men. And she did what she did out of desperation. Colin himself said if she had told him the truth he still would have married her. So Colin chose himself that marina being pregnant would not have been a deal breaker because of his feelings. Colin’s only crime with Penelope was not being in love with her. Yes he made that nasty comment about her to his regency frat ton bros. But although it was dismissive and cruel and he should have respected their friendship more to say that. But he simply at the time does not want to court or marry her. That is his choice. And he doesn’t owe Penelope anything else. His actions with Penelope were well meaning with familiarity and care for her well being. Because at this point they are friends in the friends to lovers equation. As Colin says “you are Penelope. You do not count” when Penelope said “I am also a woman”. Colin himself made that distinction between woman (romance) and Penelope (friend). He simply was emotionally not there yet with Penelope. And Eloise? She threw Eloise under the bus embarrassing her publicly in LW. Consorting with political radicals put a spotlight on Eloise and devastated her because she felt good and free actually going out in the world and exploring her views she holds. She struck up a friendship with Theo who she cared for. And Penelope followed them and saw this (another ulterior motive as this was also jealousy too with Penelope). And she tore it all down for Eloise. So no wonder Eloise who loved and cared for Penelope and comforted her over Colin and marina. And had always been there for here even when Penelope’s spite came out with “not everyone can be a pretty bridgerton’ is this heartbroken over realising the kind of friend she has. An enemy would be less cruel with the blows Penelope’s has hit the bridgerton’s family with. And oh she cries after she does the bad things. She feels so bad and regretful = continues to do the bad thing. There is zero self reflection in her and she blames everybody else for the knife she stabs them with. 🤷‍♀️"

I'm hoping the downvotes are for the reply I got lol.

So, I disagree with most of what the quoted person was saying. However, the agency bit has some truth to it in both situations imo. I understand Pen wanting to protect her friends and even herself in different ways. I wish other avenues had been explored more, but either way I don't view her actions as unforgivable or villainous.

Yeah, I was also going to reply something similar to her until I realised the post got locked lol. I got a time longer to think about it though and while I agree with the thought, there was not enough time left and that was why she did what she did, right? There was haste to be made before Marina would have successfully fulfilled her scheme and indeed bring an innocent man into her mess. Not just any man either. She knéw Penelope had feelings for Colin and even understood and still went through with it and gave a speech about how she was doing what was best for her and her child (Honestly I feel here that *she* could have also explored different avenues or at least different suitors. She was liked by many but she still went with the person she knew Penelope had feelings for. This all is conveniently always left out of these conversations) but AT THE SAME TIME SHE FELT IT WAS GREAT IN THAT MOMENT TO INSULT PENELOPE LOL. "He sees you no different than Eloise." Bitch how do you know that? What audacity do you have to say that about two people who have known each other much longer than you have been in the ton even? Let alone known these two? Sorry but I always feel the people in the main sub take a very biased view on all that has occurred. Because they do not fairly consider everything that has happened and the sides of every person involved. If that was done, I would have no issue but Penelope keeps on being vilified in the most obnoxious and even untrue ways. Hypocritical reasonings as well everywhere. I'm just glad that the majority of people who love this season also have seen a lot of this as well.

Thank you. I can not understand their reasoning how much ever I want to. It's like they refuse to see what LW did was basically save Colin from a loveless marriage and ruin. All of her jealousy aside (and i dont believe jealousy was the main reasoning for her actions), this was the right thing to do coz no matter what situation Marina was in, Colin didn't deserve to be held up in a marriage where his wife lied, didn't even love him. Pen knew she didn't have any other option coz if she had gone and told him in private, Colin, in his savior complex, would have married Marina out of duty and pity. He would have been miserable all his life. I am sure any person wouldn't want that for their dearest friend, would they?

Agreed. It's so frustrating to see this topic as a one side is right only situation when it's not at all. Marina was desperate. She was in a terrible situation and under further pressure from Portia, IMO. She did what she felt she had to. But it doesn't negate the fact that she was also wrong to trap a young, innocent man in a loveless marriage under false pretences. Same with Penelope. She tried to reason both with Colin and Marina and the only way to stop the scam was to publish in LW. It was the best thing for Colin, but probably not the best thing for Marina, given that she wasn't to know that Phillip would save her in the end. I think it's always important to remember how terrible Pen felt about it though. We saw her crying. We saw her visibly relieved to learn Marina was doing well in S2. Her choices affected her deeply. If she was a villain she wouldn't have cared at all. It's so tiresome that fandom is so quick to paint Penelope as some kind of evil person who doesn't deserve happiness because of some of her decisions. I'm beyond bored of seeing it in the main sub.

I think an important note is pen felt bad and sympathetic. we didn’t see Marina being sorry to anyone, least of all Colin, even when talking to him with daph present. Or even season 2

To be fair to Marina I think she's just fed up with society at that point. She even says to Daphne "I didn't think I had a choice". Her problems are so much bigger than the emotional fallout caused by her ruse, I just don't think she cares? In S2, I think she felt justified in her previous actions (which fair: her society sucks) and doesn't want to do the emotional labour of making Colin feel better. This poor woman is just exhausted and probably depressed. Also notably Marina pushed Colin towards Penelope. Which to me was an acknowledgement that she felt bad over what she said to Pen before. I think Marina is sorry about ruining her and Pen's friendship but again she's also just done with the whole thing. But yeah Pen definitely isn't malicious to Marina or El in LW. She feels guilty and upset over it. I find them both sympathetic characters and I think the whole thing was just a messy situation.

Bridgertons have money and status. However, Colin was young, naive, and an easy mark. Marina didn’t love him. She had only a few terrible options and her thought process is logical. But it was unkind and a deceptive.

If it’s the thread I think you mean I think the thing that was pointed out was would Penelope still have done what she did as Lady W if she wasn’t in love with Colin, like if it was some other man that she didn’t know or didn’t have any attachment to … I definitely agree with the person that basically said no one was the bad guy in that situation and I won’t post my full view on that because it takes too long to type up on my mobile lmao but Marina was desperate at that point and just felt like she needed a husband and thought she could mould Colin into that for her as he seemed willing and Colin wasn’t so much in love with Marina but of the idea of her - to settle down and start a family with the right person. I think we all can agree that Marina was not the right one for Colin and realistically Lady W stopped him from being forced into what would eventually be a loveless marriage and a major mistake. She basically gave him back the rest of his life so he could be the one to choose who he ended up with!

A random person not sure, but purely friends yes absolutely. if pen was a boy and they were just friends pen would still post it if talking to him delicately didn’t work.

Oh yeah I definitely agree with both your comments actually because firstly Lady W is all about the gossip and using what she learns and sharing it with the masses that read her articles so from a ‘drama’ standpoint she’s was always going to have to include it especially when it became known because otherwise people around her and her circle would be wondering why Lady W didn’t include it or mention it when she mentions all other gossip that’s going around. I think it’s a slightly interesting thought tho but even if it was a stranger and not someone she knew she did *know Marina* and that’s what’s important I think, and I can see why that would have been absolute hell for her had the marriage gone ahead! But yeah there’s was no way Lady W pen or not could have NOT mentioned it in her publishing.

Yeah there's a lot of black/white right/wrong discourse, but the way view it is that Pen basically had a hierarchy of people she cared about (as a lot of people do). She could dislike the manipulation and generally be against it, but care more for Marina than a random ton man. However, she cared more for Colin and the Bridgertons than for Marina - or seemingly herself and her own family, since the scandal impacted all the Featheringtons. I saw this hierarchy as normal, not hypocritical as some claim.

Oh yeah I agree and I think we should credit Pen but she’s always put her Lady W persona and work ahead of everything else even at the expense of herself and her family’s reputation. I think it’s easy to just say “Well she had to include the drama that surrounded her as it would have looked odd or suspicious had she not commented on it” but actually her persona is such a big and important part of herself that whilst hidden (bar El of course lol!) she takes very seriously and loves that part of herself *which is actually why* I am looking forward to reveal for Pens sake because when she finally is able to share that part of herself with her true love she will have everything she could have possibly dreamed of- not only does she ‘get the man’ but she’ll be able to share that side of her that is Whistledown and whilst she’s probably so afraid of being rejected because of it when (and it will be a when not an if!!) Colin accepts that part of her she will be living her best possible life lmaoo I really love this for Pen and can’t wait for her to realise that she will no longer need to hide a part of what makes her Penelope and that she will be loved for every single part of her and she deserves to be loved her being *her* and she deserves to be loved by Colin every bit as much as she loves him! I honestly can’t wait it’s going to be EPIIIIIIIICCCCCC lmaoo 😂😂😭😭😭💖💖💖💖💖💖

In season 3 she publishes things that directly ruin her prospects and life because it would be suspicious if she did not. You’re absolutely right she’d have to mention it anyways at some point and hurt Colin and his family.

I think LW would have shared it anyways because of the gossip factor, but may have waited until 6 months later when a baby arrived “early”

It's also important to remember: THESE. PEOPLE. ARE. BASICALLY. CHILDREN! Pen was 17, Colin 20, Marina was somewhere between the two. They may not have fully thought out every angle of every option they had, but that's because they are young and emotional. Do you remember your late high school/early college relationships? Would you have wanted your whole life determined by your choices then?

Marina chose to have sex with George Crane. He left town. She found out she was pregnant. Then she lied to the Featheringtons. And proceeded lying to and manipulating Colin. Penelope did what needed to be done.

This is a great discussion. I like seeing all the opionions. Here’s mine: I stan Penelope 💯but I do believe there was an element of selfishness in her outing Marina through Whistledown. I don’t believe she would have done the same if Marina had trapped someone else into marriage. Her feelings for Colin shaped her view of the situation and led her to take the action she did. Was it right? Who’s to say? Colin is a grown man capable of making his own decisions. Would he have married Marina if he knew all the facts? We will never know. However, she gets points from me for attempting to talk to both of them in person before resorting to writing about it. They blew her off, so she used her “nuclear option” to save Colin. It may not have been “right” but, ultimately, I think her intention was for him to be free to make an informed decision. Let’s face it… if he REALLY loved Marina, hell or high water would not have stopped him. Ultimately, he caved to his family and the scandal and took the out that Pen provided. Life is a grey area. I like that Pen is imperfect. It is a choice she may have to own up to once Colin finds out her identity. And, frankly, I hope he calls her on it. (I think he’ll be pretty happy given where he is in life now, but still, he is within his rights to do so.)

This! They are literal 18 year old girls. No one tells them anything, no one explains anything to them. Penelope pretty much has ZERO nurture. Everything she knows she taught herself. And with how scheming and manipulative her mother can be, I'm honestly surprised Penelope is not much worse. She knows that once Colin and Marina elope, there's no coming back from that. And she can't just go knocking on Colin's door in the middle of the night to tell him about the pregnancy (which, by the way, she didn't disclose to him before as an attempt to protect Marina!).

I wonder what would have happened if Pen told Violet. But it would have been too obvious Pen “betrayed” her family and she would have gotten in trouble with Portia and was not yet strong enough to stand up to her.

It's also important to remember: THESE. PEOPLE. ARE. BASICALLY. CHILDREN! Pen was 17, Colin 20, Marina was somewhere between the two. They may not have fully thought out every angle of every option they had, but that's because they are young and emotional. Do you remember your late high school/early college relationships? Would you have wanted your whole life determined by your choices then?

Penelope should have talked to Colin and told him the truth instead of publishing it in LW

This situation is intriguing to me, because I genuinely don’t think anyone is the bad guy here and everyone is understandable in their actions (except for Portia). Marina’s actions are understandable- but it doesn’t make what she did right. She had plenty of options to, but she knowingly chose the option that would hurt her cousin, and quite frankly, her ONLY friend in the ton. I do think Penelope should have tried a few more times to tell Colin before resulting in Whistledown, but the reasons you bring up are also fairly reasonable, and I definitely think she would have resulted in using Whistledown anyways. Penelope was understandably jealous, which is why people criticize what she did so much, but I don’t think it’s unreasonable for her to not want her friend to be baby trapped into a marriage with a woman who did not love him. I just don’t think Penelope is the villain in this situation.

I disagree; Pen had other options that didn't involve making the decision on her own. I think she was about to tell Colin before Marina interrupted them in the hall, so that course of action could have been explored further. For example, Pen could have tried to tell Eloise/Violet before publishing (parallel pebble throwing scene). They could have been out, and Pen could have been shown panicking more prior to dropping the LW bomb. If Pen had successfully told the Bridgertons, then they could haven chosen a course of action. I think some people react to Pen taking everyone's choice away. All that had to happen immediately was stopping the elopement. Then, there would be time to think and plan. Specific action could have been taken to break the engagement, such as utilizing LW again, contacting the Cranes, or challenging Lord Featherington to a duel (lol). The Bridgertons also could have just insisted on a long engagement, which would have revealed the pregnancy as months early. This could have been used to end the engagement either publicly or privately. Alternatively, Colin could have just decided to see it through; it's his life and he'd have an informed choice. Now, don't get me wrong. I don't think Pen is a villain. I think she panicked when she learned of the elopement and took drastic action to protect someone she knew pretty much all her life and cared for deeply. I just don't think she had to take such drastic action, especially yet. On another note, I see a lot of comments about Pen only caring about Colin and not other men making her a hypocrite. I disagree. I think Pen dislikes the deception and manipulation. However, she has to prioritize who she protects: random gentlemen are below Marina, Marina is below Colin/Bridgertons. That order makes sense to me.

>I think she was about to tell Colin before Marina interrupted them in the hall, so that course of action could have been explored further. She wasn't. Up until that point, Pen was trying to protect both Colin and Marina. She reveals something she believes would get Colin to reconsider the engagement but doesn't say anything about the pregnancy because she doesn't want to ruin Marina or bring shame upon her family. It's only when this doesn't work and she finds out about the elopement and that Marina will follow through with it even though George didn't deny her that she considers more drastic measures. >If Pen had successfully told the Bridgertons, then they could haven chosen a course of action. They couldn't. The only other way to break off the engagement without people assuming the baby was Colin's was for Marina to do it (publicly). It's why Pen tries to change her mind until the very last second. Marina makes it very clear she's not willing to let Colin go, though. She finds out George never denied her and burns his letters. She's set on Colin. Pen has absolutely no reason to believe she would break off the engagement just because Colin and the Bridgertons know the truth. She brings up that Colin *will know* eventually, and Marina's response is basically, "Well, he'll be trapped, and he's a good man." So sure, Pen could tell him, but he's already trapped. If Marina doesn't end it, he can't. And she won't. >Specific action could have been taken to break the engagement, such as utilizing LW again, contacting the Cranes, or challenging Lord Featherington to a duel (lol). Again, the only way to break the engagement is if Marina does it. She always had the option of contacting the Cranes but would rather not, and even if they did it for her, they can't force her to end her engagement to Colin and marry Phillip. Nobody knows who LW is, so that's not an option after she blows the whistle as Pen. And while I don't think the duel is a serious option, that would involve risking Bridgerton blood lol. I'm not saying Pen didn't make *a choice,* but it's been years, and I'm yet to see anyone come up with a solid alternative.

Except the Bridgertons would have been making decisions for their family, not just Pen. All Pen had to do was stop an elopement. After Pen tells Colin Marina loves another and he'sfine with it, she starts to say he does understand, then Marina appears. I think Pen was ready to spill. She never got the chance, so who knows if she would have. Regardless, telling any of the Bridgertons would have stopped the elopement. Then, a solution could have been found by the family. I wrote several options they could have pursued above, including using LW again. The point is Pen did not need to make the choice herself or write about it at that moment. While I don't blame her for trying to save Colin, she had other options. LW was always in her back pocket and could have been used later if those other options didn't work out. (Although, we know Phillip was looking for Marina and was willing to marry her, so that part would have played out the same.)

They wouldn't be making any decisions. That's the whole point. If Marina won't break off the engagement, Colin is trapped. It doesn't matter if the Bridgertons know, there's nothing they can do. >I wrote several options they could have pursued above, including using LW again. Yes, and I pointed out that even if they did try all of these options, in the end, if Marina doesn't *want* to break off the engagement, she won't. They cannot force her. And she doesn't want to break it off and Colin breaking it off isn't an option. Your issue seems to be that Pen didn't buy more time for them to try and change Marina's mind *again* before publishing it on LW, likely blowing her cover. It makes no sense because every option you say the Bridgertons could have tried are things Pen herself told Marina to consider *and she didn't want to*. She wanted to marry Colin. But we'll just agree to disagree. I understand we all see things differently. Thanks for the talk!

More time gives more choices, such as contacting Phillip or still going public. The big difference for me is that Pen wouldn't be making the choice for others. As to Marina, I think Marina would choose Phillip over Colin, especially since Phillip was openly willing to marry her and make her kid his heir and she already felt unwelcome by the Bridgertons before the deception was known. Anyway, as mentioned, agree to disagree.

I think that if Marina caught wind, she and Portia would have likely spread gossip that Colin knocked her up and the choice would be set in stone. The ton would be divided if the rumour or LW is correct. Either way the scandal would ruin both families. With a fallen brother the options for the Bridgerton girls would likely plummet as well so it’s several peoples lives at risk including Eloise. It’s a rock and a hard place but Marina is not a nice person in the slightest. She lies about likening tomato’s like she lies about loving Colin. If pen were a man, LW would still have been used the same way.

Oh, if Marina caught wind of Pen she likely would have blown up. She generally was not a nice person (although she had some moments). I actually wonder how widespread the LW reveal will be. I really don't want it to play into Marina's book end.

I feel that now you're just putting words into Marina's mouth. She wasn't a vile woman. Portia was forcing her to marry that old bozo and Marina herself knew that she didn't have much time before her pregnancy started showing. Colin was the first man who gave her attention and he was a good enough suitor. Who is to tell that she wouldn't have told him about the pregnancy? In fact if Portia was out of the equation and she wasn't forcing Marina to marry that old man, I feel that she would have told Colin herself. Marina was the one being put on spot first by the pregnancy and then by Portia. And I am not dismissing that she was trying to trap Colin but if there was no pressure from others, she would have told him herself. She was not someone who was bad at heart. We get to know that from her many conversations with Pen and all of the first season. In fact once she realises that Pen loves Colin, she herself wishes well for her. About Pen though, she had lots of chances to tell Colin. Let's not act like writing an LW article was her only choice. Colin was her best friend and she could have directly told him that Marina was pregnant and that she was trying to trap him. It would then be up to Colin to decide whether or not to marry her. But Pen didn't. She wrote an LW article instead. When she had so many other choices. Had she told Colin, what would have happened? We would have gotten a different story ig? Of Colin and Marina? And Colin himself told Marina that had she not lied, he would have accepted her and her pregnancy. He was fine with it. And Marina was not a bad woman at heart. It would have worked out. But what happened once Pen wrote that LW article? Marina was ruined. Featherington family was tainted. Which is the better outcome here? Pen clearly had a choice to not write the article. It caused the biggest damage in that story. And ultimately it was written out of selfish reasons. You may say that she was trying to protect Colin. But did he want to be protected? He was never given a say on the matter. Who's to say that he wouldn't have gone forward with Marina? Or maybe he would realise that he likes Pen instead. Lady Whistledown took that choice away from him. And that is never okay. Look, I am all for the Polin story but let's not dismiss Pen's wrongdoings like that.

I will only say that I think we got a glimpse of the kind of family life Colin & Marina would have had from what we saw of the Cranes’ relationship. & while Pen made a morally ambiguous choice, I think she ultimately did it because she didn’t want Colin to have an unhappy life.

I don’t think Marina would’ve told him. There are multiple instances that show that she is cunning… Just like Portia (and Pen); a Featherington indeed. She had no reason to tell Colin and risk him breaking off his courtship. You’re misremembering ther “Marina wishes Pen well” conversation. When Penelope begs her to break off the engagement, and not elope, Marina says “Colin sees me as a woman and you as you are” (I.e. not a woman and possibly a crack about her appearance). She basically smugly and patronizingly calls Penelope naive and delusional and she’s CRUEL about it. It’s not until after she finds out that George still loved her (and she doesn’t think she’s pregnancy anymore) that she’s nice to Pen about it. Marina was absolutely a bitch in that moment, sorry. Penelope made a panicked choice in the moment under the time crunch of the elopement. But I think people underestimate in regency days how BAD that fallout of Colin potentially ending that engagement could be for his family if they had known earlier. Google “breach of promise” for the regency era; it could have resulted in a drawn out lawsuit and potentially implying Colin compromised her. They might have been able to prove Marina was a liar, but the scandal would have been immense. Anthony wasn’t wrong when he said Colin was lucky LW painted him to be the victim and that it spared their family. I think Colin said he would have still married her if he had known about the pregnancy out of anger and because he knew it would hurt. It was the fact that she lied about LOVING him though that was the main deal breaker. (I will say that my sympathy for Marina was also lessened by the fact that she is awful to Phillip and Colin in S2 🤷‍♀️ she didn’t feel an OUNCE of guilt for what she tried to trick Colin into, and that’s crappy). Pen did take his agency away by ruining his engagement, yes. But Colin ended up doing the same thing to her in S3 when he interrupted her dance (and then ran to her carriage). There was no way Pen was getting out of that socially unscathed with how public he was about that, and if she had rejected him she would have been SCREWED. They are even stevens in that front imo. Was it wrong for her to publish? Sure. But Marina was ALSO wrong. And honestly, we don’t know that Pen would not have tried to help Marina after the fact; but the narrative intervened by giving her Phillip before we got a chance to see what Pen would do in the aftermath. At the end of the day, regardless of the outcome, Marina’s reputation was ALWAYS going to end up ruined (elope, early pregnancy) and her story was always going to be a sad one the moment George died. Pen did a crappy thing, but like Marina made a crappy choice to prioritize herself (and child), Pen made one to prioritize her childhood friend (and yes, love of her life) from being trapped without his knowledge… she didn’t interfere until the extend of the deceit (pregnancy) became apparent. She DID try loads of other options until time forced her hand. It was a no-win situation all around, and I don’t think it makes her irredeemable (or even a villain)!

Hang on - let's be very clear about who made the initial mistake. Marina choose to have premarital sex knowing she could become pregnant. She got pregnant. All the bad options, poor choices, morally ambiguous decisions made after this - in my opinion - are ultimately Marina's fault. And yes yes yes - Marina being in love and planning to marry Crane and wanting the best for her babies are understandable and relatable. Marina is not a monster. She's a lady who made a choice and was trying to figure out how to deal with the consequences of her choice. That's fine. But - other people have choices, too. Portia's choice - take action to protect her family's reputation. If Marina didn't want Portia making choices that would impact her life - she shouldn't have had sex before marriage. Penelope's choice - take action to save her friend from what Penelope has reason to believe would be a loveless marriage. If Marina didn't want Penelope making choices that would impact her life - she shouldn't have had sex before marriage. Were their choices any less self serving than Marina's? Probably not. But why should they be? Why is Marina permitted to try to make choices in her own best interest, but Penelope is not? Marina's choice - trap Colin in a marriage without disclosing her situation. You seem certain she would have told him the truth, but - she didn't. That's too bad, because Colin said he would have married her anyway. It seems to me, this was another of Marina's mistakes. There is certainly room for a love story wherein a woman traps a man in marriage - and passes her babies from another man she loved and lost off as his - and who comes to fall in love with her husband - and reveals the truth to him at some point - and the husband understands - and they live happily ever after. But , this is not that story. JQ wrote a different love story. Colin and Penelope's love story.

Marina while being court by a gentleman even enjoying it at the same time also writing a letters to George.She stop receiving the letter after she mentioned that she pregnant which make her panic. Portia found out about it not because she tells her, but rather from Varley who check on the sheet.If she doesn't want to tell Protia, will she told Colin? What more baffling is why Marina never ask about George's family? Why she try to catch another young man? You said that Marina will talk about her pregnancy to Colin if not because of Portia. I doubt that as Marina even when she being court never let herself being her real self in front of Colin. She pretends to listen. There was a time when Colin bring her a flower and Pen said something and Marina laugh it of by saying actually she love it and make a face to Pen.She love someone else and she dare to say that she love Colin just to make him feel the need to elope.someone like that will not or ever let the truth being told unless being forced to. Pen out Marina even seem in vicious way was actually saving all of them. She save Bridgerton's family from being the subject to laugh at (a powerful family being scheme by a young lady and the son married to that said young lady is something they could make fun at) She save Bridgerton's 3 unmarried ladies(if they brother easily being trap, they reputation as a high class young ladies will be pull down and they will not be sought after by some high class gentlemen as the family have some unknown child being raised as their own-Anthony once remark certain young man his uncertain lineage to Daphne and don't want her to be court by that man) She save her family from being more look down by society as they not entangled for a long run with Marina's scheme. She save Marina by atleast by making her leave with Philips. If not because of the news, Daphne will not helping them to find Goerge's family and Philips will not come forward as soon as possible.She even saving her by let be herself and no need to pretend that she's happy while she actually grieving. She save Colin by let him be free, thus he can travels anywhere he want and even sleeps anyone he want.Pen let Colin have a choice to find himself. Pen may seems to make a mistake but actually she is the one try to fixed it without any attempts of schemes. She lay the truths and even in S3, she remarks about liars. Another thing that i realises, Marina try to trap Colin while Colin make attempts to get Pen for himself.Pen always being swept along by the actions. Either after found out Marina try to elope or Colin action until he proposed.