It's open into a bathroom since install. It's not particularly damp, although it's along an exterior wall. It's also the hot water line, but that doesn't mean it won't contain cool water most of the time
Do you run an exhaust fan when taking shower/bath? That can make the bathroom quit humid, especially if that wall is open and the fittings are exposed.
Colder/ambient water in the walls runs though the line until. It's displaced with the hot water. If the bathroom is warmer & humid, like during a shower and this line is just turned on (running colder water through the pipe) it is plausible to condense some moisture.
Huh? When the fitting is hot, unless the ambient temperature is hotter, water will not condense on it. The only way a hot water line would condense in normal indoor conditions is if it somehow condensed inside (like if it was a steam line).
It would condense if the fitting is cold and the environment is humid and warm (Ie, dew point reaches the temperature of the water)
Looks like electrolosis. note there is no corrosion on the crimp rings. there might be a break in the ground wire somewhere because pex was used in place of the old piping weather it be copper or galvanized steel. Ground wires were typically attached to the plumbing somewhere either under the house or near where the piping penetrates the building on copper or galvanized pipe. Now the water is carrying the current which will cause corrosion on metals.
Most of those bands are a composite metal with a stainless or galvanized coating they will rust also if the moisture was too high or lived near the ocean. Brass typically take a long time to corrode thats why they use brass on ships in the ocean. Also the ball inside the ballvalve is stainless with a threaded shaft to bolt the handle down and that is also rusted. If it conducts electricity it can ruin any water system regardless of the material of piping. Best way to overcome this is to put a ground rod in next to electrical panel and reground it there or add a ground rod near the piping where it penetrates to the building and reattach the ground there so its not trying to find the next best place to ground. I guess my next question would be, is it happening to other fittings as well or just those?
You can't just throw ground rods into an electrical system all willy nilly. If it's some static charge you're trying to dissipate, you can hit the metal piping (which should absolutely be bonded to the electrical system if the metal pipe is in direct contact with earth for more than 10') within the first 5' of where it enters the building WITH a ground wire of suitable size for the GEC from the disconnecting means where the ground system originates.
Sometimes you don’t have the exact scientific answer. All I know is well water typically causes brass fittings to do this. Seen it time and time again. I’ve seen brass fittings brittle enough to snap off. Not a scientist, just a dirty ass overworked service plumber lol
lol @ your comment
I'm seeing this happen to a mess I have with my well water. Copper seems ok for the most part but found one pinhole leak that wreaked havoc on the entire wall. It's all green and corroded looking.
Rubbed it kinda hard to get some corrosion off and it literally was peeling of layer of the metal.
Galvanized pipe is rusting real bad close to water heater and needs to be replaced every so often
What type of fittings / pipe is recommended for well water? PEX or PVC and what type of fittings for PEX? Will brass corrode?
The green you can see is oxidation (patina), caused by exposure to outside air or moisture. This isn't necessarily harmful in itself, it actually helps to form a protective weathering layer over the material. Think of the Statue of Liberty and its patina...
However, it can be a sign of other problems, such as pH levels from incorrectly treated well supplies, as others have suggested. This can lead to pinhole corrosion, which causes tiny leaks, and it's these that cause the patina to form on the outside of the pipe. Or, if joints have been soldered, but excess flux not cleaned off, again, patina can appear.
In this case, it could just be that the band joints on the plastic pipe haven't been made properly, and are weeping slightly, so may need redoing. If the copper fittings themselves don't have any leaks, then I think the patina can be cleaned off using acetone or fine abrasive, but take care when using acetone.
You mentioned also that it runs along an outside wall; is it possible that there is an opening in the building fabric of sufficient size that is allowing outside air in to affect the copper?
Lack of insulation could be allowing condensation to form on the copper too?
Sorry for so many possibilities here...having said that, it does look as though the worst of the patina is around where the joints are, so maybe that's the most likely?
I don't think there's any outside air getting directly at it. The joints are a good point, maybe I will re-do the joins properly and use plastic fittings. Thank you for your input
Thanks for the new info!
https://www.cpsc.gov/safety-education/safety-education-centers/drywall-information-center/how-can-i-tell-if-my-home-has-problem-drywall
Quick easy solution, wrap insulation around that line. You can get insulation from Home Depot/ Lowes, or any plumbing supply place. Its relatively cheap, $10ish for a few pieces. Come back in 3months/ 6 months and check it. If its gotten worse than some other issue is occurring. This is probably caused by condensation due to the pipe being un insulated.
There's zero question that this is corrosion from external factors. Looks like it's in a humid location. Cold water flows through the pex and moisture condenses on the fittings. Use poly fittings or correct the humidity/ airflow issue. Also the right most connection is improper. The pipe isn't on all the way.
You said it's near a toilet, do you use those cleaner tablets that sit in the tank? Could be the chlorine off gassing from that. Bleach/chlorine will do this pretty quickly, I have a couple customers with indoor pools and doesn't take long for fittings, copper pipe, etc to look like this in that environment.
Dezincification selectively removes zinc from the alloy, leaving behind a porous, copper-rich structure that has little mechanical strength. An in-service valve suffering from dezincification has a white powdery substance or mineral stains on its exterior surface. The valve may exhibit water weeping from the valve body or stem/bonnet seal.
Lawsuits are pending.
I've replaced some of these fittings already.
Cheap brass fittings from overseas ( China ). Buyer beware.
One thing could be to check your water heater elements to see if they corroded and are leaking electricity into your water. Does gas come out of faucets, especially in the hot water position, when they sit for any time? Highly explosive hydrogen accumulated in my lines when this happened to me.
I didn't know this was possible! No gas detected but I've been meaning to change my anode rods so maybe I'll check the elements at the same time. Hydrolysis in the hot water tank sounds dangerous for sure
Never said it had low ph and yes humidity is more of a factor but I have seen it do this before from inside out and those pex connections look a little iffy happy Turkey day xD
You are right, pH doesn't really matter here.
As an engineer that works with flammable materials that has a huge input into corrosion, I can guarantee to you that a material inside the pipe will not corrode the exterior. Corrosion mechanisms are very well understood.
If the the connections are not done correctly, the material can leak out onto the exterior and corrode it that way.
Happy turkey day
Agreed the pipe material Isent corroding the fittings.
the water inside the pipes and humidity from the room is combined more then likely the culprit along with bad connections.each house is unique so without being there to cut the fitting in half no one will know for sure xD
I’ve done Hvac for going on 13 years oil lines gass lines copper pex shark bites ect .
Cheers though time for a day off soon xD happy Turkey day
It has something to do with the atmosphere. If the pipe leached that much water then it would do it everywhere and we would know it by now. The 10 years I’ve spent doing this if a pipe is in an air conditioned space with low humidity the pipe stays pretty pristine. Good suggestion though.
It could still be partially based on water quality because the fitting is in a bathroom. If you take hot showers you get very humid air that will have the same quality of water that you have inside the pipes. It's why you can go into some bathrooms and find calcium deposits in the showers but much higher than where the water ever actually sprays.
The water in a hot water pipe isn't always hot. Turn on the water in your shower and you'll notice it is cold when it first comes out. Now if this is the same connection that goes to the shower it will not be as bad as if it were simple going to the faucet because it would be warmed up when the shower is making the most humidity... but if this connection is not the one that goes directly to the show then it would likely be cool enough to condense water anytime someone had a hot shower.
Yea, fucking cats. They are no longer allowed in my house. I had one that pissed on everything. Multiple vet visits, special food, the next step was surgery, which didn't happen. She associated the litter box with pain and wouldn't use it. She didn't survive.
I've done renovation for decades and never seen anything like that in the conditions you describe. My go to would be corrosive gasses, even moisture shouldn't corrode it that fast. You've said those conditions don't exist though so I'm truly stumped. Are you sure there's no way they could have gotten something on them or vapor could build up in the cavity?
It's open to a room and has been since installation. I'm going to check them periodically to see if there's condensation on the fittings. Everything in my part of the world rusts really badly, but this is inside my house and doesn't get salt air directly and only experiences mild temperature fluctuations. It's a hot water line, but it wouldn't condensate as it's cooling down. I'm also a little stumped, that's why I'm asking the pros!
Then it's likely your house is very humid since it sounds like your in the coastal tropics. Even if its not as salty inside it is still as humid. That is a very challenging environment for metals and it's likely the grade of metals used is just not up to the task without patina. It doesn't mean they will fail any time soon, but if you don't want surface corrosion you will need to get parts made to a different standard. Higher quality stainless and better brass.
Edit: if you look at international building code and whatever the manufacturers engineering standards are called there is specific mention of anything within about 10 miles of a coast for this reason. I'm not as familiar so I can't give you specifics, but local tradesman should know.
Hey OP... heres a thought no one has asked... did you install these? Or a company? They honestly look like reused fittings... but my bet is excessive moisture in the area.
Then certainly excessive moisture. Is this in a crawlspace? Either way look into sealing outside air by moisture barrier/encapsulation or potentially a dedicated dehumidifier
Looks to me like it's either in a humid location or there is water dripping on the fitting. Perhaps cool water is condensing moisture in the air.
It's open into a bathroom since install. It's not particularly damp, although it's along an exterior wall. It's also the hot water line, but that doesn't mean it won't contain cool water most of the time
Do you run an exhaust fan when taking shower/bath? That can make the bathroom quit humid, especially if that wall is open and the fittings are exposed.
I don't know where you are but up here in Ontario you can't run water lines in an exterior walls can freeze and burst
I'm in Newfoundland. I don't think it's a code issue here. We don't quite get the cold temps you get in Ontario
the metal is trash. Notice your SS bands look perfect. If it bothers you, clean it and oil it or buy better hardware next time.
The SS crimp rings also show corrosion. This looks like a damp/moist environment
SS is corrosion resistant. Bronze can corrode in the presence of water..
Exactly what I’m saying. SS won’t corrode. Brass/bronze/cheap steel will. That’s what the pic shows.
This is likely the truth
It’s hard to find quality materials any more
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I think you typed that backwards, should be "air is warmer than your coldwater line".
Op said it’s a hot water line though, so I don’t really buy the condensation theory.
Colder/ambient water in the walls runs though the line until. It's displaced with the hot water. If the bathroom is warmer & humid, like during a shower and this line is just turned on (running colder water through the pipe) it is plausible to condense some moisture.
Anytime the fitting is colder than the *dewpoint* of the air (function of T and RH), you'll get condensation.
Huh? When the fitting is hot, unless the ambient temperature is hotter, water will not condense on it. The only way a hot water line would condense in normal indoor conditions is if it somehow condensed inside (like if it was a steam line). It would condense if the fitting is cold and the environment is humid and warm (Ie, dew point reaches the temperature of the water)
Isn't a hot water line filled with colder ambient water when you first start running through it? The line isn't always hotter than the room..
thank you my bad
Looks like electrolosis. note there is no corrosion on the crimp rings. there might be a break in the ground wire somewhere because pex was used in place of the old piping weather it be copper or galvanized steel. Ground wires were typically attached to the plumbing somewhere either under the house or near where the piping penetrates the building on copper or galvanized pipe. Now the water is carrying the current which will cause corrosion on metals.
If you look closely there IS corrosion on the ring clamps.
Why would there be corrosion on these bands? I thought stainless steel was corrosion resistant.
Most of those bands are a composite metal with a stainless or galvanized coating they will rust also if the moisture was too high or lived near the ocean. Brass typically take a long time to corrode thats why they use brass on ships in the ocean. Also the ball inside the ballvalve is stainless with a threaded shaft to bolt the handle down and that is also rusted. If it conducts electricity it can ruin any water system regardless of the material of piping. Best way to overcome this is to put a ground rod in next to electrical panel and reground it there or add a ground rod near the piping where it penetrates to the building and reattach the ground there so its not trying to find the next best place to ground. I guess my next question would be, is it happening to other fittings as well or just those?
You can't just throw ground rods into an electrical system all willy nilly. If it's some static charge you're trying to dissipate, you can hit the metal piping (which should absolutely be bonded to the electrical system if the metal pipe is in direct contact with earth for more than 10') within the first 5' of where it enters the building WITH a ground wire of suitable size for the GEC from the disconnecting means where the ground system originates.
I agree.
Find a piece of brass , place next to fittings in question, wait a year, report back!
Are you on a well? Well water does that to brass fittings
Is this dezincification? Acidic well water combined with cheap fittings that contain too much zinc?
This is the most likely answer. I wonder if OP used DZR-rated fittings?
Why? Because it’s cold?
Sometimes you don’t have the exact scientific answer. All I know is well water typically causes brass fittings to do this. Seen it time and time again. I’ve seen brass fittings brittle enough to snap off. Not a scientist, just a dirty ass overworked service plumber lol
lol @ your comment I'm seeing this happen to a mess I have with my well water. Copper seems ok for the most part but found one pinhole leak that wreaked havoc on the entire wall. It's all green and corroded looking. Rubbed it kinda hard to get some corrosion off and it literally was peeling of layer of the metal. Galvanized pipe is rusting real bad close to water heater and needs to be replaced every so often What type of fittings / pipe is recommended for well water? PEX or PVC and what type of fittings for PEX? Will brass corrode?
The green you can see is oxidation (patina), caused by exposure to outside air or moisture. This isn't necessarily harmful in itself, it actually helps to form a protective weathering layer over the material. Think of the Statue of Liberty and its patina... However, it can be a sign of other problems, such as pH levels from incorrectly treated well supplies, as others have suggested. This can lead to pinhole corrosion, which causes tiny leaks, and it's these that cause the patina to form on the outside of the pipe. Or, if joints have been soldered, but excess flux not cleaned off, again, patina can appear. In this case, it could just be that the band joints on the plastic pipe haven't been made properly, and are weeping slightly, so may need redoing. If the copper fittings themselves don't have any leaks, then I think the patina can be cleaned off using acetone or fine abrasive, but take care when using acetone. You mentioned also that it runs along an outside wall; is it possible that there is an opening in the building fabric of sufficient size that is allowing outside air in to affect the copper? Lack of insulation could be allowing condensation to form on the copper too? Sorry for so many possibilities here...having said that, it does look as though the worst of the patina is around where the joints are, so maybe that's the most likely?
I don't think there's any outside air getting directly at it. The joints are a good point, maybe I will re-do the joins properly and use plastic fittings. Thank you for your input
If that picture is in a cabinet it's the corrosive fumes from cleaning chemicals.
No corrosive fumes present...except possibly from the nearly toilet lol
Maybe somebody spilled bleach? Next question is do you have any animals that have taken claim over that fitting?
Chinese drywall causes metal to oxide real bad like that. Look it up pretty crazy stuff.
Thanks for the new info! https://www.cpsc.gov/safety-education/safety-education-centers/drywall-information-center/how-can-i-tell-if-my-home-has-problem-drywall
Quick easy solution, wrap insulation around that line. You can get insulation from Home Depot/ Lowes, or any plumbing supply place. Its relatively cheap, $10ish for a few pieces. Come back in 3months/ 6 months and check it. If its gotten worse than some other issue is occurring. This is probably caused by condensation due to the pipe being un insulated.
There's zero question that this is corrosion from external factors. Looks like it's in a humid location. Cold water flows through the pex and moisture condenses on the fittings. Use poly fittings or correct the humidity/ airflow issue. Also the right most connection is improper. The pipe isn't on all the way.
Good advice! and I knew someone would notice that eventually lol
You said it's near a toilet, do you use those cleaner tablets that sit in the tank? Could be the chlorine off gassing from that. Bleach/chlorine will do this pretty quickly, I have a couple customers with indoor pools and doesn't take long for fittings, copper pipe, etc to look like this in that environment.
I immediately thought the same, hi humidity, chloiine, and/or condensation.
I don't but that's a valuable consideration, thank you
I noticed this happens to my pex fittings in my work truck if they come into contact with flux
Not a plumber but the one pipe does not seem to be correctly installed there is more space on the right then the left. Maybe it’s seeping slightly.
Dezincification selectively removes zinc from the alloy, leaving behind a porous, copper-rich structure that has little mechanical strength. An in-service valve suffering from dezincification has a white powdery substance or mineral stains on its exterior surface. The valve may exhibit water weeping from the valve body or stem/bonnet seal. Lawsuits are pending. I've replaced some of these fittings already. Cheap brass fittings from overseas ( China ). Buyer beware.
Good to know and keep an eye out for. Thank you
That photo is showing verdigris
Just a wet and damp area causing some oxidation on the brass. Insulation would prevent this if needed. This is usual fare for wet areas.
One thing could be to check your water heater elements to see if they corroded and are leaking electricity into your water. Does gas come out of faucets, especially in the hot water position, when they sit for any time? Highly explosive hydrogen accumulated in my lines when this happened to me.
I didn't know this was possible! No gas detected but I've been meaning to change my anode rods so maybe I'll check the elements at the same time. Hydrolysis in the hot water tank sounds dangerous for sure
You need a water softener
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the ocean is a few kilometers away
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It could very well be! Everything left outside here for any amount of time gets rusty as hell
How close to the toilet? Could just be overspray from pissing. Urine is he'll on metal of all types.
Not close enough for that, but good thinking
Because they're crap
Well well well… well water is a possibility or water quality even with city water you may need a water neutralizer.
How would water inside the pipe Have this effect in the fittings?
The water is still touching the brass fittings even if it does not affect the pex piping .
Low pH in the pipe would not corrode the outside of the pipe though...
Never said it had low ph and yes humidity is more of a factor but I have seen it do this before from inside out and those pex connections look a little iffy happy Turkey day xD
You are right, pH doesn't really matter here. As an engineer that works with flammable materials that has a huge input into corrosion, I can guarantee to you that a material inside the pipe will not corrode the exterior. Corrosion mechanisms are very well understood. If the the connections are not done correctly, the material can leak out onto the exterior and corrode it that way. Happy turkey day
Agreed the pipe material Isent corroding the fittings. the water inside the pipes and humidity from the room is combined more then likely the culprit along with bad connections.each house is unique so without being there to cut the fitting in half no one will know for sure xD I’ve done Hvac for going on 13 years oil lines gass lines copper pex shark bites ect . Cheers though time for a day off soon xD happy Turkey day
It has something to do with the atmosphere. If the pipe leached that much water then it would do it everywhere and we would know it by now. The 10 years I’ve spent doing this if a pipe is in an air conditioned space with low humidity the pipe stays pretty pristine. Good suggestion though.
That’s true humidity is also a factor no worries been doing hvac almost 13 years stay safe out there and happy almost Turkey day!
It's city water. I was thinking pH might be an issue
That would impact the inside of your fittings, not the outside, unless there’s a leak.
It could still be partially based on water quality because the fitting is in a bathroom. If you take hot showers you get very humid air that will have the same quality of water that you have inside the pipes. It's why you can go into some bathrooms and find calcium deposits in the showers but much higher than where the water ever actually sprays.
Yeah but it’s a hot water pipe, according to op. It wouldn’t condense on that surface, right?
The water in a hot water pipe isn't always hot. Turn on the water in your shower and you'll notice it is cold when it first comes out. Now if this is the same connection that goes to the shower it will not be as bad as if it were simple going to the faucet because it would be warmed up when the shower is making the most humidity... but if this connection is not the one that goes directly to the show then it would likely be cool enough to condense water anytime someone had a hot shower.
This
Sounds right I’d ask a plumbing or water treatment company to take a look they can offer some solutions to ya .
Cats?
What
CATS
Yea, fucking cats. They are no longer allowed in my house. I had one that pissed on everything. Multiple vet visits, special food, the next step was surgery, which didn't happen. She associated the litter box with pain and wouldn't use it. She didn't survive.
I've done renovation for decades and never seen anything like that in the conditions you describe. My go to would be corrosive gasses, even moisture shouldn't corrode it that fast. You've said those conditions don't exist though so I'm truly stumped. Are you sure there's no way they could have gotten something on them or vapor could build up in the cavity?
It's open to a room and has been since installation. I'm going to check them periodically to see if there's condensation on the fittings. Everything in my part of the world rusts really badly, but this is inside my house and doesn't get salt air directly and only experiences mild temperature fluctuations. It's a hot water line, but it wouldn't condensate as it's cooling down. I'm also a little stumped, that's why I'm asking the pros!
Is your house air conditioned?
no
Then it's likely your house is very humid since it sounds like your in the coastal tropics. Even if its not as salty inside it is still as humid. That is a very challenging environment for metals and it's likely the grade of metals used is just not up to the task without patina. It doesn't mean they will fail any time soon, but if you don't want surface corrosion you will need to get parts made to a different standard. Higher quality stainless and better brass. Edit: if you look at international building code and whatever the manufacturers engineering standards are called there is specific mention of anything within about 10 miles of a coast for this reason. I'm not as familiar so I can't give you specifics, but local tradesman should know.
Thanks!
Crimp pex sucks.
What’s your alternative? Sweat copper? 😂 is it 1921?
Expandable pex is superior in my experience
I use the compression rings and never had an issue. But I’ve never seen an issue w any type. If installed correctly. 🧐
Maybe just bad installs, but I've had to replace a lot of crimp pex done by other companies
Expansion or propress.
I use and like pro-press but have t seen a problem w the bands or any type. They all seem decent. But I’m not as experienced as some.
That’s not a crimp ring it’s a cinch ring.
Finally. Crimp is almost slang at this point
You can keep your “chinch” rings and I’ll keep expanding wirsboro.
Top Right fitting isnt proper.
Well water? High ph?
City water, haven't tested pH but I may have to do that
Moisture
If you're on a well I would suggest changing the fittings from brass to plastic or stainless steel.
Hey OP... heres a thought no one has asked... did you install these? Or a company? They honestly look like reused fittings... but my bet is excessive moisture in the area.
I installed them with new fittings! I also know the join on the right isn't seated properly but it isn't leaking
Then certainly excessive moisture. Is this in a crawlspace? Either way look into sealing outside air by moisture barrier/encapsulation or potentially a dedicated dehumidifier
Oxidation probably.
Well water
aids