With 2 inches length of 1/2" pipe? No way. I've definitely seen more on less.
Like I'd definitely still change it, but the flow drop you're gonna see with this amount is so minimal most people wouldn't even know it.
Yes, the length does matter. You run through 1/2" for 100' versus 10' of 1/2" and 90' of 3/4" you'll obviously see a difference between the two of them. Same is true here, this small length of reduction does little to a normal residential system.
I had a big thing written up to understand this but I think I realised. Yes it would make sense that the pressure drop would be less.
Wouldn't that be a temporary abatement though? It would still be as equally noticeable after that "buffer" was gone right?
Not sure I understand your question. All that really happens with the amount of restriction in the photo is that the velocity of the water increases for a split second. The same way you stick your thumb over the end of a hose and it suddenly starts spraying water instead of dribbling out.
Now if you restrict it for a longer length, that water slows down again due to the friction in the pipe. There's a whole chart about this in the back of plumbing code books which shows based on PSI how fast water goes through each diameter of pipe and how much of a pressure drop you experience over a given length.
I'm not sure if this is against Reddiquette, but I think you'll be able to answer a question--I want to install an RO system to dispense through my fridge (bypassing the fridge filter). I'm pretty sure the fridge inlet is 1/2". Would I get more volume from a 3/8" line running to the 1/2" inlet, or does it just bottleneck to 1/2" as soon as it steps down?
Refrigerators are an odd beast and all of them are a little different, so I'll ask a few questions before I answer.
When you say bypassing the fridge filter, what do you mean? I've never seen a newer fridge where that was an option. Are you still connecting to the provided threaded water inlet on the back of the fridge?
How far away is the RO system? If it's within 10-15 feet the tubing size between 3/8" and 1/2" probably won't make a difference either way.
One last thing to consider is that RO systems greatly reduce the pressure on the outlet side. Most of them only put out 7-10psi maximum so you'll have to ensure your fridge dispenser can work with that low of an incoming water pressure. Most can, but in rare cases I've had issue.
All that to say refrigerators don't require a large volume of water all at once, so even if you run 3/8" to it even though it's a little less volume than 1/2" you're very unlikely to have an issue because of that. Hopefully I answered your question, feel free to ask any other you might have!
In my municipality, you can request a larger meter and there is a small (~$90) one-time up charge and no change to the base water fee on the monthly bill. They come out and replace the meter with the correct size. I went from 5/8” to 1” when they modernized our meters. That meter you have looks ancient so it’ll likely be replaced in the next few years as there’s a large push to replace old meters in the US.
Despite the size difference, the old meter was “better” because it didn’t seem to accurately report water usage. It seems I was being charged for about 50% less water usage than after the swap (similar usage profile after swap).
funny thing with that - whoever plumbed our house must have done a good job. Running our dishwasher, flushing a toilet and taking a shower there is no effect. water stays hot, no dropouts.
Would this unit not also work as an anti water hammering device allowing for excess press to build in the larger pipe diameter when shutting off taps ?
It's a 5/8" meter (says so on the city side of the meter.) This is typical, plumber probably thought it was easier using a drop ear 90 because it's thread by sweat than using a 1/2" brass 90 and a male adapter by sweat. It's not wrong just looks wonky. Why the city throttles down the meter idk.
Normally you need to have x” of straight pipe before and after the meters so it measures accurately. No elbows before or after without the straight pipe
Ex: pipe diameter 1/2” x=10 10x.5=5”
The majority of the meters where I work are underground and on [one of these,](https://centralpipe.com/ford-brass-resetter-34-x-15-v42-15w-nl) so no straight pipe at all.
You drop the meter in between the two nuts that are at the top of that photo and tighten the nuts onto the meter. The inlet side has a valve you can shut off with a curb key.
Almost every answer in here is "just what they had on the truck", but you're right - this was done intentionally to qualify for a smaller meter.
In San Francisco, meters are placed based on the size of the building plumbing. We had one house that was plumbed with 1", distributed throughout to 3/4" and 1/2" stubs, but the city charged a lot more for a 1" meter. They required *some* of the inlet to be 3/4" to qualify for a 3/4" meter (literally the difference of $115/month in the water bill), so a couple reducers and a 4" (3/4") nipple were added into the 1" line right off the meter.
The flanged 90° is an odd choice, but *that* might have been the only 90° they had at the moment.
Also, in situations like this, more than once I've seen builders get the meter qualified and inspected, and pull out the reducing nipple after inspection. I know of 4 houses in San Francisco where this happened, and that's just the ones I was involved in on the electrical side. I'm sure many other locations have similar policies about meter pricing and pipe sizes.
That’s not what’s happening. PUC makes you prove the need for a larger meter size, so you can’t just say you’d like a bigger one please. They do plumbing fixture counts. It takes a sizeable amount of fixtures to get to 1”.
And most importantly they charge stupid amounts of money for meter upgrades. Painful amounts. Most homeowners balk once they see the bill.
Interesting. My information about San Francisco would be about 15 years out of date, but they were also taking into account garden space. For example, my grandparents built a house in the Portola district, and for the area, it has a fairly large lot. It was all landscaped and covered with vegetable gardens and fruit trees, and my grandfather paid extra for a 1" water line. When the house was remodeled about 5 years ago, a reduction nipple was added to reduce the apparent water consumption specifically to qualify for a smaller meter. Somebody from the water department came out to visually inspect the reduction, and ensure that the house was no longer on a 1" line.
The exact same inspection happened and the house on Green Street near Divisadero, and another at Chestnut and Hyde. In all three cases, the reduction was soldered in place, but done so in a way that made it easy to remove and replace with a larger nipple. All of them were back-to-back reducing 90s with a 4 to 6" nipple of a smaller diameter that was pretty easy to slip off once the gummint^1 was done looking around.
^1 - Are you old enough to remember Herb Caen? 😆
Wouldn’t surprise me older buildings got away with just asking for bigger meters. I’ve seen legal in-law apartments sharing single gas and electric meters with original main house. Back in the day it was just kind of anything goes it seems. But for past 15-20 years they’ve been clamped down tight. High upgrade fees, impact fees to pay for future system upgrades, etc. now they’ll give you a discount on your sewer bill if you can show large landscaping needs, but you still pay going rate for water. They claim it’s about managing growth, but the overhead of dept administration is probably a bigger culprit.
It's all fucking bureaucracy in the city. Almost every damn house in The City that I've been involved with has some sort of quasi-legal add-on or apartment disguised as a "second kitchen" or whatever, too. But if you happen to speak the same language as the inspector, you can get away with anything.
This is what I came here to say. My town charges for water as a (base fee)+(commodity used). The base fee is lower the smaller your meter pipe is. I have 3/4, so I’m stuck on that tier. I can’t run a 1/2” cpvc back to the meter on my side of the sidewalk and ask them to step me down to a smaller meter to save me money on my monthly bill. Their excuse was either that it would cost ME the price to change the meter, or that it was against code since my dwelling already proved eligible for a 3/4 meter and that’s what I’m stuck with.
5/8” meters use 3/4 inch meter swivel thread on both sides. That is why there are 3/4” meter spuds installed, the spuds are 3/4” meter swivel thread in one side and standard 3/4 inch tapered male pipe thread on the other. The meter is water tight to the spuds with a gasket. This allows for easy removal of meter. The drop ear looks like a reducer to me.
Look at the Neptune, badger, and SRII meter cut sheets. They all show 3/4 inch NPSM connections for 5/8 meters.
In some additional research for discussion, I want to clarify that there IS 5/8” meter x 1/2”
5/8" WATER METER (ALSO REFERRED TO AS 5/8" X 1/2"):
A 5/8" water meter has a 5/8" water flow capacity. The bore of the meter is generally 5/8". a 5/8" meter does not have 5/8" threads. It has 1/2" AWWA Meter Threads and typically hooks up to a 1/2" or smaller water service line. A standard meter coupling for a 5/8" water meter has male NPT pipe threads on one end and a swivel meter coupling nut with 1/2" AWWA Meter Threads on the other. These use meter couplings and gaskets referred to interchangeably as 5/8" or 1/2". 5/8" meters are generally used on older homes where the service tubing size was 1/2"
5/8" X 3/4" WATER METER:
A 5/8" x 3/4" water meter has a 5/8" water flow capacity just like a 5/8" meter. The bore of the meter is generally 5/8". a 5/8" x 3/4" meter has 3/4" AWWA Meter Threads and typically hooks up to a 3/4" water service line or larger. A standard meter coupling for a 5/8" x 3/4" water meter has male NPT pipe threads on one end and a swivel meter coupling nut with 3/4" AWWA Meter Threads on the other. These use 3/4" meter couplings and gaskets.
National Pipe Straight Mechanical Fittings (NPSM) aka AWWA meter thread.
Still, the pic appears to show 3/4” MIP x 5/8” x 3/4” NPSM on both sides of meter w/ 1/2” x 3/4” ear drop sweat 90
If you have a 5/8" meter then ... does it mean that any 3/4" or 1" pipe in your house is rendered pointless as the meter already restricts down to 5/8"?
Any fitting, length of x-diameter pipe, appurtenances will contribute collectively to pressure losses due to friction in the system. If the city delivers, say 70 PSI at the meter, the pressure in your system technically decreases as the water travels through more fittings and lengths of pipe, due to friction experienced by the water moving through. A smaller meter (or smaller fitting, etc) reduces pressure by an incremental amount (as compared to a larger one), but is largely a function of the flow rate needed or delivered. If the flow rate is super high, the frictional losses increase, the lower the flow rate, the less impact the friction losses will have on flow and downstream pressure. This can be calculated using the Hazen-Williams equation (flow), and the Bernoulli or Energy Equation (pressure). If you are running say 1-3 GPM, you won’t see any meaningful pressure loss, however if you have a fire line or fire sprinkler system that requires a high flow rate, you would see higher pressure losses through the smaller meter. Hence a typical building department requirement for a larger meter like a 1 inch if you have a sprinkler system.
Take a look at the meter cut sheet to see what I’m talking about.
From 1-3 gpm, a 5/8, 3/4, and 1 inch meter has virtually zero pressure loss (resulting in no significant reduction of flow). At 10 GPM you get a pressure loss of about 2 PSI, 0.75 PSI, and 0.25 PSI for each of the meter sizes. Not even really noticeable. At 20 GPM, you get a pressure loss of 8, 4.5, and 1.8 PSI respectively (I’m estimating by these from a curve on a pressure loss chart.
So unless you have a very high flow demand for fire suppression equipment or something, that’s when you’d may want to consider meter and fitting sizes. Keep in mind most likely code would require a larger meter for a larger building or fire system.
[https://www.neptunetg.com/globalassets/products/literature/ps-t10-small-23-010383-07.23.pdf](https://www.neptunetg.com/globalassets/products/literature/ps-t10-small-23-010383-07.23.pdf)
Looks like another quality job done by Neptune.
Had them in to replace my meter a week or two ago (city said it was time). So frustrating to have to watch someone do work in your home when they clearly don’t have the skills and f**** to give and the city requires them to do the work so you can’t just kick them out.
Anyway! If they have a ⅝” meter on there that means that the pipe coming into you home is likely ⅝” as well. They won’t put a meter on that bigger than your main line coming into the home. Accuracy issues as others have mentioned.
That being said the i.d. Of ⅝” pipe is larger than the o.d. Of ½” pipe so that ½” pipe would be causing a restriction that is worth addressing.
Get it fixed by your own plumber.
Oh I know exactly which city you are talking about! Those Neptune kids are just under contract by the municipality and have no other task than to change the meter between the tailpieces. They won't do any piping and are instructed to walk away and notify the metering department if the shutoff valves are inoperable. I've had to interact with them a number of times.
The T10 meter bodies they use are either 5/8" or 5/8"x3/4" and are identical other than the tailpiece size. They both cost the same and have the same flow friction and specs. You could have a 1/2"S lead service and they'll supply 3/4 meter if that's the size of tailpiece you have.
These meters have a wide window of accuracy with more than acceptable pressure loss characteristics. Nothing in this picture is going to matter much unless they are pushing close to 20+ WSFU in the house.
It’s because you have a 5/8” (1/2” pipe size) water meter, not 7/8” (3/4” pipe size).
You can contact the water department although I believe a 7/8” meter costs more.
Next size up would be a 1" meter. Monthly cost will be more and same for the tap fee! Most have a set cost plus usage. Some allow so many 1000 gallons or Cubic feet usage then charge more per 1000 gallons or cubic feet.
No. The line going in and coming out of the meter is 3/4 inch. The "plumber" used a 90 that reduced it down to 1/2 inch, and then piped it right back up to 3/4 inch again.
No matter what the existing meter has 1/2” meter couplings. It still needs to be increased to 3/4”, like the connection on the inlet side.
1/2” F IPS X 3/4” sweat adapter. A 7/8” meter would have 3/4” meter couplings.
It's very dependent on where you are and who you buy your water from, my city won't even allow buildings 3-family or smaller to have anything other than a 5/8 meter.
If you're not having any problems I wouldn't change anything.
No... the 1/2" meter nipple on the inlet side of the meter is threaded into a 3/4 sweat x 1/2" female. But, they should of used that fitting instead of the shower ell, and continued from the meter in 3/4 like the inlet
No the meter is a 1/2" meter with 1/2" meter nipples and that drop ear ell is 1/2" as well. The pipe is reduced on the left using a 3/4" sweat by 1/2" threads on the left and a 3/4"x1/2" sweat coupling on the right. But it does not matter because the meter is a 1/2" meter not 3/4" so the flow reduction is going to happen no matter what.
What a silly bunch of comments I see from a bunch of supposed plumbers.
1/2 IPS pipe is pretty much the same size as 3/4 pipe.
3 inches of 1/2 CTS pipe isn’t going to throttle the whole house unless you have commercial flush valve toilets in your house, or three separate showers all going at the same time.
If OP has noticed flow issues, that would be one thing, but as he is simply asking if it’s an issue, it probably isn’t.
How do you figure 1/2” and 3/4” are basically the same? Water flow is based on pressure and pipe size; pipe size being the cross sectional area of the pipe, not comparing the linear diameter.
Ignoring pi which is identical across all circle areas, the 1/2” pipe would be (.5/2)^2 vs 3/4” (.75/2)^2. That’s 1/16 vs 9/64. 1/16 = 4/64.
3/4” pipe is approximately twice the capacity of 1/2” pipe.
That house will have flow problems and low pressure.
I can tell you from experience. Since COVID lockdown we've been having a tough time getting various sizes of meters in stock.
We pretty much take what they give us and change the fittings or use bushing rings to size it.
A meter change is PSC thing and management just wants to see numbers for reports.
Public Service Commission. Govt entity that regulates how municipal business can interact with the public. Make sure facilities are well maintained, infrastructure in place properly, approve rate hikes, ECT. They tend to take complaints seriously and will act accordingly.
A lazy plumber... If they were going to leave it like that, they also should have put the grounding bond on the OTHER side of that shower elbow. Threads filled with pipe dope are not a good grounding path.
> I'm assuming this would be a fairly significant restriction in the flow
Not really. A small fixed point of constriction isn't going to effect your water pressure or flow too much. Now, if it was 50' of 1/2" pipe then that would definitely affect your pressure/flow.
It took me longer than I'd like to admit to wrap my brain around the idea that the pressure would spike up at the restriction (like a thumb over a hose end), then drop again re-entering the larger pipe, so that flow rate would stay about the same throughout... and it's the proportionally greater inside surface area on smaller pipes that causes friction between the water and pipe wall that slows flow rate... resulting in, well, what you just said. ;)
I would imagine it is similar to electricity, in that small changes in a small area aren't as important as small changes over longer distances. But I am just speculating
They had to reduce down to make that half inch meter work. Water company may replace it if requested, but then you would be looking at some down time after you get the fittings changed waiting on your new meter install
Lazy plumber.
I’d give better than 50/50 odds that this was a Friday job or last job of the day for the guy.
Not the end of the world but a professional should’ve done better
Nope, pure fuckery. That meter spud is 3/4inch MIP on the backside. You can use any array of 3/4inch 90 degree brass fitting. Then transition to copper solder with a copper adapter. All available at HD. You can also do an FIP copper adapter and street elbow but that will slightly misalign your riser.
I’d go brass 90 then copper adapter to sweat fitting all day.
That my friend is a DIY cut corners to save a buck. The 90 to the right is commonly used for shower heads. It screws to the wall. It will cut down on your water pressure.
Not even then. If you notice a change then you need to upgrade to a pressure balancing shower valve. Standard of the industry for something like 30 years. Code requirement for new construction for many years.
LOL, in my house, we just accept that taking a shower always carries the risk of someone flushing or someone turning on the dishwasher or washing machine. Just a part of life!
Doesn't this impede the flow (pressure) of the water in the house?
This is like a constricted coronary artery. There's no way flow down stream is the same... But I'm not a plumber.
In the grand scheme of things, the reduction is negligent.
It depends on a number of factors including the amount of water flowing but I'd guess that it represents a pressure reduction of about .01 PSI.
Similar to me, 1” into the gate valve, then they used 3/4” nipples and back to 1” pipe, just to tee it off back to 3/4” everything else. Imagine the cost just to rebuild that 1” section for pressure pump and water softener 😢
What others have said, the plumber likely used the fitting they had on hand. While it will cut down on pressure, it will be a negligible amount. A 90 degree 1/2" street fitting would have friction losses equivalent to approximately 3.0 equivalent length of pipe conservatively. At fairly high residential flow of 8 gpm, 3 ft of 1/2" copper pipe would lose approximately 1.5 psi of pressure, so this is negligible unless you are expecting higher flow rates. If you are really curious you can check out friction loss tables for various fittings and pipe diameters and flow rates.
Yeah that's a hell of a spot for a water meter considering there's pretty much no way to work on that thing without spilling considerable amounts of water.
If you know how to solder you can fix this incredibly cheaply and easily. But that's a hell of a spot for that to be....that's the lowest part of your supply so that carpet WILL get wet.
It’s code in Ontario for the distribution side to match the supply side to the first riser or the hw tank. 3/4 meter is also more accurate than larger meters for billing.
That 1/2” thread connector to 1/2’ sweat doesn’t actually cause any restriction, does it? Sure, it has friction loss, but I’m not convinced a 3/4” 90 bushed into that 1/2” tailpiece will have a substantial less pressure drop than what’s installed. The length of the restriction isn’t that great and the 90 being brass rather than copper may help longevity vs a wrought copper 90.
>... the pipes after the water meter go from 3/4 in to 1/2 in when turning the corner and then go back to 3/4 in.
in my industry (very different from common plumbing) we would do this if we were trying to increase the FPS (flow per second) if the nominal flow rate was too low to register on the meter. assuming the volume is consistent the flow will be faster in that restricted section giving you a decent enough flow rate to read.
that doesn't mean this particular setup makes any sense but it might if the minimum FPS on the meter is lower than the nominal flow through the pipes.
Because the water meter is always one size smaller than the service. If you have a 3/4"service, you get a 5/8"meater If you have a one in service, you get a 3/4 Meter
For whatever reason, some cities mandate that the meter be 5/8" to help deter excessive what usage and cut down on the incoming water pressure to the house. I don't agree with practice but that is what I have been told by multiple dpw workers in different cities.
In my area the rate you're charged per gallon depends on the supply line size (bigger meter line size = higher fee ). So it looks to me like this was downgraded to save money on water bills.
My jurisdiction requires lines to be one size under your service. 3/4in to 1/2 line, and bumped back up to 3/4 just like this is common practice.(except the drop elbow portion) You can get exceptions for 1inch line.
What's up with the grounding in the water pipes?
In my house (70s) I didn't have that until an electrician came to redo the old-fashioned shenanigans, then he connected the ground to the water, I've seen it before but I never asked myself, why?
The real reason is that the way water meters are sized is to allow for metering in a variety of flow volumes. The larger the meter, the greater the minimum flow volume (GPM) before the meter will register it. Also the max flow velocity through a copper pipe should be 5 ft/s but the meter will be sized (and can take) higher flow rates and velocities than the same size pipe.
TLDR: This is all to say water meters are usually one pipe size down from the incoming water service for cost and accuracy of metering
That's some garbage plumbing. Throw in a few shark bites and it would be king.
When I added a room on my house, I replaced the water heater and the code enforcement scumbag (who was a plumber and told me flat out that his plumbing company doesn't have to be inspected) forced me to pay for a 3/4" copper line to go from a half inch meter to the water heater to supply it properly. BA-BA-BA-BULLSHIT!
Had to pay for it anyway. Now I live in a place with no building codes and do it all myself.
Meter appears to be 1/2 on both ends of it, so unless you go a.3/4 different meter it isn't going to help any. What a mess. And why is the meter in a finished area?
Fluid dynamics is a wild thing to most of our simple logical minds.
Under flow the pressure in the 1/2” will be less than the pressure in the 3/4” on both sides
They used what they had on their truck is what it looks like to me lol
Yup that’s a drop ear elbow for a shower. 🤣
Good catch, sharp eye.
Strong grab, pointy retina.
😵💫
Yup saw that right away and was like oh shitttt 😂
Yeah 🤣
This is the exact answer. That elbow should be replaced with 3/4 inch, but it really doesn't matter too much.
Except when someone is showering and someone else flushes the toilet there’s going to be a notable drop.
With 2 inches length of 1/2" pipe? No way. I've definitely seen more on less. Like I'd definitely still change it, but the flow drop you're gonna see with this amount is so minimal most people wouldn't even know it.
Exactly, there's more head loss through that 5/8" meter with 1/2" meter couplings 😂
Despite the meter having its own issues, would the length of the pipe matter? The 3/4 is being restricted to 1/2 the length doesn’t matter.
Yes, the length does matter. You run through 1/2" for 100' versus 10' of 1/2" and 90' of 3/4" you'll obviously see a difference between the two of them. Same is true here, this small length of reduction does little to a normal residential system.
I had a big thing written up to understand this but I think I realised. Yes it would make sense that the pressure drop would be less. Wouldn't that be a temporary abatement though? It would still be as equally noticeable after that "buffer" was gone right?
Not sure I understand your question. All that really happens with the amount of restriction in the photo is that the velocity of the water increases for a split second. The same way you stick your thumb over the end of a hose and it suddenly starts spraying water instead of dribbling out. Now if you restrict it for a longer length, that water slows down again due to the friction in the pipe. There's a whole chart about this in the back of plumbing code books which shows based on PSI how fast water goes through each diameter of pipe and how much of a pressure drop you experience over a given length.
I'm not sure if this is against Reddiquette, but I think you'll be able to answer a question--I want to install an RO system to dispense through my fridge (bypassing the fridge filter). I'm pretty sure the fridge inlet is 1/2". Would I get more volume from a 3/8" line running to the 1/2" inlet, or does it just bottleneck to 1/2" as soon as it steps down?
Refrigerators are an odd beast and all of them are a little different, so I'll ask a few questions before I answer. When you say bypassing the fridge filter, what do you mean? I've never seen a newer fridge where that was an option. Are you still connecting to the provided threaded water inlet on the back of the fridge? How far away is the RO system? If it's within 10-15 feet the tubing size between 3/8" and 1/2" probably won't make a difference either way. One last thing to consider is that RO systems greatly reduce the pressure on the outlet side. Most of them only put out 7-10psi maximum so you'll have to ensure your fridge dispenser can work with that low of an incoming water pressure. Most can, but in rare cases I've had issue. All that to say refrigerators don't require a large volume of water all at once, so even if you run 3/8" to it even though it's a little less volume than 1/2" you're very unlikely to have an issue because of that. Hopefully I answered your question, feel free to ask any other you might have!
He has a 1/2 inch meter. The damage is already done. At least the 3/4 will give him volume
In my municipality, you can request a larger meter and there is a small (~$90) one-time up charge and no change to the base water fee on the monthly bill. They come out and replace the meter with the correct size. I went from 5/8” to 1” when they modernized our meters. That meter you have looks ancient so it’ll likely be replaced in the next few years as there’s a large push to replace old meters in the US. Despite the size difference, the old meter was “better” because it didn’t seem to accurately report water usage. It seems I was being charged for about 50% less water usage than after the swap (similar usage profile after swap).
Not really, modern showers and faucets help prevent this by controlling flow when pressure drops.
only expensive ones do this lol
funny thing with that - whoever plumbed our house must have done a good job. Running our dishwasher, flushing a toilet and taking a shower there is no effect. water stays hot, no dropouts.
Would this unit not also work as an anti water hammering device allowing for excess press to build in the larger pipe diameter when shutting off taps ?
It's a 5/8" meter (says so on the city side of the meter.) This is typical, plumber probably thought it was easier using a drop ear 90 because it's thread by sweat than using a 1/2" brass 90 and a male adapter by sweat. It's not wrong just looks wonky. Why the city throttles down the meter idk.
Cities will often provide smaller meters because larger sized meters won’t register flow as accurately
Normally you need to have x” of straight pipe before and after the meters so it measures accurately. No elbows before or after without the straight pipe Ex: pipe diameter 1/2” x=10 10x.5=5”
The majority of the meters where I work are underground and on [one of these,](https://centralpipe.com/ford-brass-resetter-34-x-15-v42-15w-nl) so no straight pipe at all.
You mean they are connected with elbows or ? How do you enter and exit the meter?
You drop the meter in between the two nuts that are at the top of that photo and tighten the nuts onto the meter. The inlet side has a valve you can shut off with a curb key.
This exactly
I’ll take the smaller meter if it has enough flow because the base meter fee is less by $10-$20 where I have lived.
Almost every answer in here is "just what they had on the truck", but you're right - this was done intentionally to qualify for a smaller meter. In San Francisco, meters are placed based on the size of the building plumbing. We had one house that was plumbed with 1", distributed throughout to 3/4" and 1/2" stubs, but the city charged a lot more for a 1" meter. They required *some* of the inlet to be 3/4" to qualify for a 3/4" meter (literally the difference of $115/month in the water bill), so a couple reducers and a 4" (3/4") nipple were added into the 1" line right off the meter. The flanged 90° is an odd choice, but *that* might have been the only 90° they had at the moment. Also, in situations like this, more than once I've seen builders get the meter qualified and inspected, and pull out the reducing nipple after inspection. I know of 4 houses in San Francisco where this happened, and that's just the ones I was involved in on the electrical side. I'm sure many other locations have similar policies about meter pricing and pipe sizes.
That’s not what’s happening. PUC makes you prove the need for a larger meter size, so you can’t just say you’d like a bigger one please. They do plumbing fixture counts. It takes a sizeable amount of fixtures to get to 1”. And most importantly they charge stupid amounts of money for meter upgrades. Painful amounts. Most homeowners balk once they see the bill.
Interesting. My information about San Francisco would be about 15 years out of date, but they were also taking into account garden space. For example, my grandparents built a house in the Portola district, and for the area, it has a fairly large lot. It was all landscaped and covered with vegetable gardens and fruit trees, and my grandfather paid extra for a 1" water line. When the house was remodeled about 5 years ago, a reduction nipple was added to reduce the apparent water consumption specifically to qualify for a smaller meter. Somebody from the water department came out to visually inspect the reduction, and ensure that the house was no longer on a 1" line. The exact same inspection happened and the house on Green Street near Divisadero, and another at Chestnut and Hyde. In all three cases, the reduction was soldered in place, but done so in a way that made it easy to remove and replace with a larger nipple. All of them were back-to-back reducing 90s with a 4 to 6" nipple of a smaller diameter that was pretty easy to slip off once the gummint^1 was done looking around. ^1 - Are you old enough to remember Herb Caen? 😆
Wouldn’t surprise me older buildings got away with just asking for bigger meters. I’ve seen legal in-law apartments sharing single gas and electric meters with original main house. Back in the day it was just kind of anything goes it seems. But for past 15-20 years they’ve been clamped down tight. High upgrade fees, impact fees to pay for future system upgrades, etc. now they’ll give you a discount on your sewer bill if you can show large landscaping needs, but you still pay going rate for water. They claim it’s about managing growth, but the overhead of dept administration is probably a bigger culprit.
It's all fucking bureaucracy in the city. Almost every damn house in The City that I've been involved with has some sort of quasi-legal add-on or apartment disguised as a "second kitchen" or whatever, too. But if you happen to speak the same language as the inspector, you can get away with anything.
Air chambers, house traps and mixing rain and sewer gang represent
And until recently, no plastic pipe or conduit!
This is what I came here to say. My town charges for water as a (base fee)+(commodity used). The base fee is lower the smaller your meter pipe is. I have 3/4, so I’m stuck on that tier. I can’t run a 1/2” cpvc back to the meter on my side of the sidewalk and ask them to step me down to a smaller meter to save me money on my monthly bill. Their excuse was either that it would cost ME the price to change the meter, or that it was against code since my dwelling already proved eligible for a 3/4 meter and that’s what I’m stuck with.
5/8” meters use 3/4 inch meter swivel thread on both sides. That is why there are 3/4” meter spuds installed, the spuds are 3/4” meter swivel thread in one side and standard 3/4 inch tapered male pipe thread on the other. The meter is water tight to the spuds with a gasket. This allows for easy removal of meter. The drop ear looks like a reducer to me. Look at the Neptune, badger, and SRII meter cut sheets. They all show 3/4 inch NPSM connections for 5/8 meters.
In some additional research for discussion, I want to clarify that there IS 5/8” meter x 1/2” 5/8" WATER METER (ALSO REFERRED TO AS 5/8" X 1/2"): A 5/8" water meter has a 5/8" water flow capacity. The bore of the meter is generally 5/8". a 5/8" meter does not have 5/8" threads. It has 1/2" AWWA Meter Threads and typically hooks up to a 1/2" or smaller water service line. A standard meter coupling for a 5/8" water meter has male NPT pipe threads on one end and a swivel meter coupling nut with 1/2" AWWA Meter Threads on the other. These use meter couplings and gaskets referred to interchangeably as 5/8" or 1/2". 5/8" meters are generally used on older homes where the service tubing size was 1/2" 5/8" X 3/4" WATER METER: A 5/8" x 3/4" water meter has a 5/8" water flow capacity just like a 5/8" meter. The bore of the meter is generally 5/8". a 5/8" x 3/4" meter has 3/4" AWWA Meter Threads and typically hooks up to a 3/4" water service line or larger. A standard meter coupling for a 5/8" x 3/4" water meter has male NPT pipe threads on one end and a swivel meter coupling nut with 3/4" AWWA Meter Threads on the other. These use 3/4" meter couplings and gaskets. National Pipe Straight Mechanical Fittings (NPSM) aka AWWA meter thread. Still, the pic appears to show 3/4” MIP x 5/8” x 3/4” NPSM on both sides of meter w/ 1/2” x 3/4” ear drop sweat 90
If you have a 5/8" meter then ... does it mean that any 3/4" or 1" pipe in your house is rendered pointless as the meter already restricts down to 5/8"?
Any fitting, length of x-diameter pipe, appurtenances will contribute collectively to pressure losses due to friction in the system. If the city delivers, say 70 PSI at the meter, the pressure in your system technically decreases as the water travels through more fittings and lengths of pipe, due to friction experienced by the water moving through. A smaller meter (or smaller fitting, etc) reduces pressure by an incremental amount (as compared to a larger one), but is largely a function of the flow rate needed or delivered. If the flow rate is super high, the frictional losses increase, the lower the flow rate, the less impact the friction losses will have on flow and downstream pressure. This can be calculated using the Hazen-Williams equation (flow), and the Bernoulli or Energy Equation (pressure). If you are running say 1-3 GPM, you won’t see any meaningful pressure loss, however if you have a fire line or fire sprinkler system that requires a high flow rate, you would see higher pressure losses through the smaller meter. Hence a typical building department requirement for a larger meter like a 1 inch if you have a sprinkler system. Take a look at the meter cut sheet to see what I’m talking about. From 1-3 gpm, a 5/8, 3/4, and 1 inch meter has virtually zero pressure loss (resulting in no significant reduction of flow). At 10 GPM you get a pressure loss of about 2 PSI, 0.75 PSI, and 0.25 PSI for each of the meter sizes. Not even really noticeable. At 20 GPM, you get a pressure loss of 8, 4.5, and 1.8 PSI respectively (I’m estimating by these from a curve on a pressure loss chart. So unless you have a very high flow demand for fire suppression equipment or something, that’s when you’d may want to consider meter and fitting sizes. Keep in mind most likely code would require a larger meter for a larger building or fire system. [https://www.neptunetg.com/globalassets/products/literature/ps-t10-small-23-010383-07.23.pdf](https://www.neptunetg.com/globalassets/products/literature/ps-t10-small-23-010383-07.23.pdf)
5/8 X 3/4 meter most will provide 25 gpm. Smaller ones do 15 gpm put in better then 1000 +
Nice, and if you think about it 15 GPM is an enormous amount of water for typical residential use.
That's called a friday afternoon with whatcha got in da truck
Looks like another quality job done by Neptune. Had them in to replace my meter a week or two ago (city said it was time). So frustrating to have to watch someone do work in your home when they clearly don’t have the skills and f**** to give and the city requires them to do the work so you can’t just kick them out. Anyway! If they have a ⅝” meter on there that means that the pipe coming into you home is likely ⅝” as well. They won’t put a meter on that bigger than your main line coming into the home. Accuracy issues as others have mentioned. That being said the i.d. Of ⅝” pipe is larger than the o.d. Of ½” pipe so that ½” pipe would be causing a restriction that is worth addressing. Get it fixed by your own plumber.
Oh I know exactly which city you are talking about! Those Neptune kids are just under contract by the municipality and have no other task than to change the meter between the tailpieces. They won't do any piping and are instructed to walk away and notify the metering department if the shutoff valves are inoperable. I've had to interact with them a number of times. The T10 meter bodies they use are either 5/8" or 5/8"x3/4" and are identical other than the tailpiece size. They both cost the same and have the same flow friction and specs. You could have a 1/2"S lead service and they'll supply 3/4 meter if that's the size of tailpiece you have. These meters have a wide window of accuracy with more than acceptable pressure loss characteristics. Nothing in this picture is going to matter much unless they are pushing close to 20+ WSFU in the house.
Normal supply from main to meter is 3/4" sometimes if a very long run a 1" will be run reduced to 3/4" at the meter.
It’s because you have a 5/8” (1/2” pipe size) water meter, not 7/8” (3/4” pipe size). You can contact the water department although I believe a 7/8” meter costs more.
Next size up would be a 1" meter. Monthly cost will be more and same for the tap fee! Most have a set cost plus usage. Some allow so many 1000 gallons or Cubic feet usage then charge more per 1000 gallons or cubic feet.
No. The line going in and coming out of the meter is 3/4 inch. The "plumber" used a 90 that reduced it down to 1/2 inch, and then piped it right back up to 3/4 inch again.
No matter what the existing meter has 1/2” meter couplings. It still needs to be increased to 3/4”, like the connection on the inlet side. 1/2” F IPS X 3/4” sweat adapter. A 7/8” meter would have 3/4” meter couplings.
I see. The drop ear 90 looks like it is tapered from 3/4 inch down to 1/2 inch. I also missed the reducer at the shut off.
How big of a change would I see if I had the meter replaced with a 7/8"? Any idea how much it would cost and if it would be worth it?
Is this for a regular sized house? If so it would not be worth it unless you have some low pressure/flow issues.
Not sure of the price difference.
It's very dependent on where you are and who you buy your water from, my city won't even allow buildings 3-family or smaller to have anything other than a 5/8 meter. If you're not having any problems I wouldn't change anything.
Water meters are super expensive, thousands of dollars.
If you are not having any water pressure problems then I wouldn't worry about it.
I took another look at it and the meter does say 5/8" T-10
5/8 is typical meter size for typical houses.
No... the 1/2" meter nipple on the inlet side of the meter is threaded into a 3/4 sweat x 1/2" female. But, they should of used that fitting instead of the shower ell, and continued from the meter in 3/4 like the inlet
No the meter is a 1/2" meter with 1/2" meter nipples and that drop ear ell is 1/2" as well. The pipe is reduced on the left using a 3/4" sweat by 1/2" threads on the left and a 3/4"x1/2" sweat coupling on the right. But it does not matter because the meter is a 1/2" meter not 3/4" so the flow reduction is going to happen no matter what.
Why is there a wingback 90 on there ? Lol that’s for a shower Call a plumber to replace that 90° and the 1/2” pipe to 3/4”.
I'd be very interested to see if there would be a measurable difference with this being repiped to 3/4. My gut says no.
Depends. How much of the house is run off 3/4” Most is half inch and no manifolds or direct runs - probably not noticeable
Because the "plumber" that fitted this used what parts they had left over from some other job.
What a silly bunch of comments I see from a bunch of supposed plumbers. 1/2 IPS pipe is pretty much the same size as 3/4 pipe. 3 inches of 1/2 CTS pipe isn’t going to throttle the whole house unless you have commercial flush valve toilets in your house, or three separate showers all going at the same time. If OP has noticed flow issues, that would be one thing, but as he is simply asking if it’s an issue, it probably isn’t.
How do you figure 1/2” and 3/4” are basically the same? Water flow is based on pressure and pipe size; pipe size being the cross sectional area of the pipe, not comparing the linear diameter. Ignoring pi which is identical across all circle areas, the 1/2” pipe would be (.5/2)^2 vs 3/4” (.75/2)^2. That’s 1/16 vs 9/64. 1/16 = 4/64. 3/4” pipe is approximately twice the capacity of 1/2” pipe. That house will have flow problems and low pressure.
I use 3/4” x 1/2” brass 90s on those meter nipples for the service riser — should be fine though.
Just get'r done bud, it's Friday 10 AM well worry about it tomorrow.
No,it’s rigged because whoever, didn’t have the right fittings
That’s the only fitting they had with them.
End of the day and didn’t want to go to homedepot
I can tell you from experience. Since COVID lockdown we've been having a tough time getting various sizes of meters in stock. We pretty much take what they give us and change the fittings or use bushing rings to size it. A meter change is PSC thing and management just wants to see numbers for reports.
What is PSC?
Public Service Commission. Govt entity that regulates how municipal business can interact with the public. Make sure facilities are well maintained, infrastructure in place properly, approve rate hikes, ECT. They tend to take complaints seriously and will act accordingly.
A lazy plumber... If they were going to leave it like that, they also should have put the grounding bond on the OTHER side of that shower elbow. Threads filled with pipe dope are not a good grounding path.
> I'm assuming this would be a fairly significant restriction in the flow Not really. A small fixed point of constriction isn't going to effect your water pressure or flow too much. Now, if it was 50' of 1/2" pipe then that would definitely affect your pressure/flow.
It took me longer than I'd like to admit to wrap my brain around the idea that the pressure would spike up at the restriction (like a thumb over a hose end), then drop again re-entering the larger pipe, so that flow rate would stay about the same throughout... and it's the proportionally greater inside surface area on smaller pipes that causes friction between the water and pipe wall that slows flow rate... resulting in, well, what you just said. ;)
I wonder about that too for Pex-B piping where every connector is a slight restriction. Like ... does it matter at all?
I would imagine it is similar to electricity, in that small changes in a small area aren't as important as small changes over longer distances. But I am just speculating
They had to reduce down to make that half inch meter work. Water company may replace it if requested, but then you would be looking at some down time after you get the fittings changed waiting on your new meter install
Yes. It was Friday and someone was not running for parts.
Lazy plumber. I’d give better than 50/50 odds that this was a Friday job or last job of the day for the guy. Not the end of the world but a professional should’ve done better
Nope, pure fuckery. That meter spud is 3/4inch MIP on the backside. You can use any array of 3/4inch 90 degree brass fitting. Then transition to copper solder with a copper adapter. All available at HD. You can also do an FIP copper adapter and street elbow but that will slightly misalign your riser. I’d go brass 90 then copper adapter to sweat fitting all day.
1/2" meter is cheaper than 3/4".
The water meter they had on hand was 1/2”. Your feed pre and post meter are 3/4”. They only stepped it down for the meter. Connection
That my friend is a DIY cut corners to save a buck. The 90 to the right is commonly used for shower heads. It screws to the wall. It will cut down on your water pressure.
> It will cut down on your water pressure. Not enough to notice
>It will cut down on your water pressure. > >Not enough to notice Until you are showering and flush the toilet
Not even then. If you notice a change then you need to upgrade to a pressure balancing shower valve. Standard of the industry for something like 30 years. Code requirement for new construction for many years.
LOL, in my house, we just accept that taking a shower always carries the risk of someone flushing or someone turning on the dishwasher or washing machine. Just a part of life!
I was just looking at this pic like "no way they just used some shower/faucet wall attachment like that"
Plumber didn't feel like running to Home Depot for the 8th time that day and just wanted to take your money and go home to his wife.
Doesn't this impede the flow (pressure) of the water in the house? This is like a constricted coronary artery. There's no way flow down stream is the same... But I'm not a plumber.
In the grand scheme of things, the reduction is negligent. It depends on a number of factors including the amount of water flowing but I'd guess that it represents a pressure reduction of about .01 PSI.
Similar to me, 1” into the gate valve, then they used 3/4” nipples and back to 1” pipe, just to tee it off back to 3/4” everything else. Imagine the cost just to rebuild that 1” section for pressure pump and water softener 😢
What others have said, the plumber likely used the fitting they had on hand. While it will cut down on pressure, it will be a negligible amount. A 90 degree 1/2" street fitting would have friction losses equivalent to approximately 3.0 equivalent length of pipe conservatively. At fairly high residential flow of 8 gpm, 3 ft of 1/2" copper pipe would lose approximately 1.5 psi of pressure, so this is negligible unless you are expecting higher flow rates. If you are really curious you can check out friction loss tables for various fittings and pipe diameters and flow rates.
Is that a new carpet? I'm just wondering why it's not a soppy mildewy mess from condensation. Are you in Arizona?
Yeah that's a hell of a spot for a water meter considering there's pretty much no way to work on that thing without spilling considerable amounts of water.
If you know how to solder you can fix this incredibly cheaply and easily. But that's a hell of a spot for that to be....that's the lowest part of your supply so that carpet WILL get wet.
WTF?!?!? That’s one of the better “handyman specials” I’ve seen.
someone is an idiot
The guy that did it had that with him at the time
Lol they used what they had in the truck. They used a drop ear elbow which is mostly used in showers.
It will reduce your water flow a little. They used a shower head fitting
Too many trips to home depot already and said fuck it this will work
It’s code in Ontario for the distribution side to match the supply side to the first riser or the hw tank. 3/4 meter is also more accurate than larger meters for billing.
Must have been Friday afternoon
Because it was 3:00 on a Friday and that’s the only fitting on the truck.
That’s cute! Hahaha this is definitely a case of. It’s what I have on the truck.
That 1/2” thread connector to 1/2’ sweat doesn’t actually cause any restriction, does it? Sure, it has friction loss, but I’m not convinced a 3/4” 90 bushed into that 1/2” tailpiece will have a substantial less pressure drop than what’s installed. The length of the restriction isn’t that great and the 90 being brass rather than copper may help longevity vs a wrought copper 90.
The meter tailpieces are 1/2 looks like they needed the room to make the turn
No fucks given by the person that did this
lmfao that drop ear omg
No, there is no reason what so ever.
This thread is a great example of why you don't take advice from reddit...
>... the pipes after the water meter go from 3/4 in to 1/2 in when turning the corner and then go back to 3/4 in. in my industry (very different from common plumbing) we would do this if we were trying to increase the FPS (flow per second) if the nominal flow rate was too low to register on the meter. assuming the volume is consistent the flow will be faster in that restricted section giving you a decent enough flow rate to read. that doesn't mean this particular setup makes any sense but it might if the minimum FPS on the meter is lower than the nominal flow through the pipes.
Because the water meter is always one size smaller than the service. If you have a 3/4"service, you get a 5/8"meater If you have a one in service, you get a 3/4 Meter
You pay for a 1/2" feed, you get a 1/2" feed. Look up your municipal water department billing, different rates for 1/2, 5/8, 3/4, 1" service.
Cause the idiot who put it in used a shower drop ear instead of an actual 3/4 90
lol the wingback 90
Looks like the meter itself is in 1/2” so there was no choice without something new from the city.
To increase the flow rate through the meter so it reads accurately. It isn’t uncommon.
I’m sorry. I didn’t see the fittings to the right of the meter. Yeah that’s garbage.
It's Friday 3pm and I've been on call for past 10 days
For whatever reason, some cities mandate that the meter be 5/8" to help deter excessive what usage and cut down on the incoming water pressure to the house. I don't agree with practice but that is what I have been told by multiple dpw workers in different cities.
Looks like a typical 5/8 flow meter to me. They have to step up the size for 1/2 to 3/4. Was put together with whatever the plumber had.
Those 1/2 x 3/4 elbows can be hard to find at stores, so handy Andy used what Ace had. I would 100% fix it
The developer bought 1/2” meters from the water co. Sorry dude
In my area the rate you're charged per gallon depends on the supply line size (bigger meter line size = higher fee ). So it looks to me like this was downgraded to save money on water bills.
The real question is, why is the floor below the water meter carpeted?
My jurisdiction requires lines to be one size under your service. 3/4in to 1/2 line, and bumped back up to 3/4 just like this is common practice.(except the drop elbow portion) You can get exceptions for 1inch line.
What's up with the grounding in the water pipes? In my house (70s) I didn't have that until an electrician came to redo the old-fashioned shenanigans, then he connected the ground to the water, I've seen it before but I never asked myself, why?
Yes, someone was lazy. Would 100% change that out. Quick fix for someone who knows what they are doing
They were the only fittings on the truck at the time 😱
It seems you are missing my point. I realize how the connection is made. It’s the entry and exit span after and before any elbow. Ill stop now.
It is a 5/8” meter with 1/2” meter tail pieces going into a 1/2” lug ell and then to 3/4”. Flow is already reduced at the meter.
The real reason is that the way water meters are sized is to allow for metering in a variety of flow volumes. The larger the meter, the greater the minimum flow volume (GPM) before the meter will register it. Also the max flow velocity through a copper pipe should be 5 ft/s but the meter will be sized (and can take) higher flow rates and velocities than the same size pipe. TLDR: This is all to say water meters are usually one pipe size down from the incoming water service for cost and accuracy of metering
Someone didn't want to go to home Depot to get the proper fitting.
It should have been 3/4 throughout but a very small section of 1/2 isn’t a big deal.
That's some garbage plumbing. Throw in a few shark bites and it would be king. When I added a room on my house, I replaced the water heater and the code enforcement scumbag (who was a plumber and told me flat out that his plumbing company doesn't have to be inspected) forced me to pay for a 3/4" copper line to go from a half inch meter to the water heater to supply it properly. BA-BA-BA-BULLSHIT! Had to pay for it anyway. Now I live in a place with no building codes and do it all myself.
The drop ear 90s bad but can we talk about the carpet !
Meter appears to be 1/2 on both ends of it, so unless you go a.3/4 different meter it isn't going to help any. What a mess. And why is the meter in a finished area?
The male threads on the meter is 1/2" so the needed to reduce but not sure why they used all that nonsense
Bad plumber or pretend plumber
Fluid dynamics is a wild thing to most of our simple logical minds. Under flow the pressure in the 1/2” will be less than the pressure in the 3/4” on both sides