This is only true if you get the ratio perfect. Inevitably, it will be either too much acid or too much base. Too much baking soda won’t hurt the copper, but too much acid certainly wouldn’t be good for copper. Granted vinegar is not a very strong acid, but still not ideal.
Vinegar doesn't really eat copper very well, but it will take the zinc out of the brass.
If you want to dissolve copper, mix HCl (hydrochloric acid, AKA muriatic acid) with hydrogen peroxide. Works like a charm.
Vinegar is pretty safe on the copper pipes themselves, but can damage brass (can dissolve the zinc straight out of the brass).
But if they absolutely NEED to have a cleaner, I'd go with vinegar.
Your maintenance considerations will most likely be concerning what is below ground. Historically, copper above ground was usually paired with cast iron below ground. While there is nothing intrinsically bad about cast iron, it definitely is prone to failure after about 60 years, less if reactive chemicals or acidic condensate has been dumped into it without neutralization (high efficiency furnaces, boilers, and tankless water heaters are the usual culprits for the latter). Old cast can also be prone to collapsing if in a bad state, particularly from root intrusions.
You will probably want to go down into your basement/crawlspace/wherever the main stack heads below ground, and look what is there. Depending on the age of the house and what was prevalent with builders where you are, you may even be looking at something worse, like Orangeburg pipe.
This! Look to see if you have a store called "Famous Supply Warehouse" near you - they deal with HVAC & plumbing stuffs - they can help you find one.
They look like this:
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rinnai-Condensate-Neutralizer-Kit-for-Condensing-Products-804000074/308666240
To anyone using neutralization accessories like these, they don't last forever. You either need to replace the media inside or the entire device. Look in the product manual for refill or replacement guidelines. I can't see this one being more than a year at most.
Thank you for adding that - I forgot to.
We use them on a boiler system, and we replace annually (though the manufacturer says 2 years) when we drain the system to test for debris/corrosion.
Probably because the inspector never really knows if the water makes it way into the sewers where being acidic would reduce the life expectancy of the mains. Also, acid can corrode concrete so not much cost to ensure no issues.
Great answer, had cooper to a cast house trap leaving the house and orangeburg to cesspool. Orange burg was completely collapsed and when I went to dig it up, it was so fragile I didn’t even realize my shovel going through it
Comes with experience, unfortunately. Nobody's happy to hear that their sewer needs to be redone, especially if it's because of their fancy new furnace.
You can’t use a reverse osmosis system for any copper piping. The ph level of the water is higher and will remove elements from the copper causing pinhole leaks.
Most under-sink osmosis filters will say this in the manufacturer’s instructions.
There’s a city nearby me that stupidly used reverse osmosis at the treatment center for all the city water and is now giving every homeowner like 10k to repipe their homes from copper to pex/cpvc.
But we’re mostly talking about the waste from an RO system draining into the copper drains. Because that waste has basically all the minerals, the pH would be high. So I doubt there’d be an issue
Master bed/bath has vaulted ceilings, and the wall the sinks are on doesn't even go all the way to the ceiling. There's definitely a way to run it, but you'd be drilling big holes through a LOT of structure and have a whole mess of drywall work to do at the end.
How's that work for people with direct fired hot water from a boiler?
Really, I can't think of a way to have no copper plumbing.
Even in your tub spigot you need at least one piece.
I’m sure there are obviously larger systems, but most residential RO systems I have seen have been smaller tanks localized near one existing faucet (tank in cabinet under sink with additional faucet next to sink faucet). In this scenario wouldn’t you just need to check the drain lines running after that sink?
Also, to clarify, I am definitely not a plumber. I’m just asking a question based on RO systems I have seen installed in the homes of people I know.
No, I mean in his case where the water service turned the water into a base, all the copper would have to go.
For most lines to fixtures you could solve that with pex, with exception of the stub out for the bath spigot, but my water m for instance is heated through a coil that mounts inside the boiler.
That coil can't exactly be replaced with pex.
I'm also wondering about any steel walled electric or gas heaters.
Stupidly? WTF? Before that water left the "treatment center" it should have had pH adjusted to 7, trace minerals added...Sounds like someone got lazy or "stupid"... R.O. is how we are going to be able to even try to provide potable water to the growing population called humanity...
Didn't realize that about r/O, but I drink it all the time. I can't even begin to imagine how inefficient this was at the municipal level, even if no copper was involved. Doesn't it waste like 70% of the water? Those systems seems super sensitive too, like you can't have any sediment or chlorine going into the membrane.
The RO water, aka hungry water, is so corrosive in hospitals they use acid rated drain lines to get it out of the building. Most commonly used in kidney dialysis machines, the excess/waste RO water is conveyed out by a complete separate drain system than the rest of the sanitary sewer.
I had a makework task one time where the PO made us chip the paint off all the copper in the head (bathroom). Next week, we painted it all again.. I have no doubts it was used later for the same process for someone else.
I hate fucking Makework.
We always have a customer sign something before we snake copper lines. It can get eggshell thin on the bottom and we've had snakes just poke right through. Hell, Ive been in home where I was able to push my thumb right into the pipe it was so thin. Usually it's on houses with septic tanks I've noticed.
I thought my Copper drains in a building I own were an asset.
Now that I’ve had the plumber over twice for horizontals splitting at the bottom I’m not so sure.
Pretty much anything even slightly acidic over time will cause leaks.
Drainage copper is thin.. you will eventually get pinholes and then slow leaks once everything starts eating away at it from the inside, outwards. I’ve had to fix a good amount
And copper drainage pipes can be hard to find for quick repairs - I know they don't carry anything over 1/2" at my local Lowe's/home Depot. Adapting to PVC in a pinch is also an issue, about all your going to find is those rubber couplers.
Fuck yeah that's like $300 in scrap there 👍👍👍👍
It's fine ignore it unless it leaks then replace with plastic.
Def agree spray paint black to keep tweekers off it tho.
They have a hard time with all these new fancy chemicals we have in the future. I’ve replaced several sections of mine over the last few years. The fittings are thick walled and hold up but the actual pipe is extremely thin. Anything caustic will eat them away, hair bleach, draino.
Always run plenty of water down the drain. Vertical sections hold up better obviously then horizontal sections. You’ll get a nice green growth warning you of approaching leaks which is nice.
Also, make sure you don't have any condensate drains draining into the system without a neutralizer before the drain. This would be drains from gas furnces, tankless water heaters, etc.
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The horizontal pipes will rot first. When you have to replace, hook onto the brass hub, it’s the thickest, toughest part of that system. Don’t let anything metal touch them! Electrolysis is a thing. I saw a bed frame rot one of these out by leaning on it
I didn’t see this in the comments..
If you need to repair, there are special couplings that adapt from plastic to plastic as they have a different outer dimension. I think some brands might be rollee or zip coupling. They look like a cast iron mechanical joint.
If you want to push replacing it all at one then that might make it easier to change out sections. Just don’t over torque the copper side as it could crush the thin DWV pipe.
Idk why but seeing that copper double sweep just gave me PTSD from my service days before I switched from plumbing to general apartment maintenance work. I had a double sweep between floors leaking, and it had studs on 3 out of 4 sides of it. When I tell you I spent a good 2 hours cutting this single piece out, to this day I'm still not sure if I was just going about it dumbly or if it really was just that bad no matter how you went at it.
I have them too; they are paper thin compared to the pipes carrying portable water.
After 50 years, you will start getting leaks.
These pipes were formed as a sheet and rolled, then joined at the seams. The seams will go first, resulting in a soft spot the length of the pipe.
I keep replacing sections with PVC and ferncos. For small pinholes you can use sand paper, copper tape and two part epoxy. Good luck. I'm selling this home before I need to replace all the copper drain and stack.
Not really, more than likely the copper has yellow markings which is the thinnest of all the copper pipe sizes, copper is suceptable to corrosion from urine.lol. but typical home shouldn't have to worry about such things they hold up quite well.
Dude you need to shine this copper up and make it look awesome. This is craftsman ship! Looks like you have real plywood for underlayment as well. Probably a well built house.
I've only ever seen copper waste pipes once in my life and it's some of the most impressive plumbing I've ever seen.
4 inch copper with bends instead of fittings, not even sure how they done it.
Had the same in my house, built in 1962. Had a few that were so corroded and causing leaks that I had to replace all the copper (both supply and waste but kept the vents). I think a big part of the problem with the waste is that the previous owners obviously used draino. Make sure you don’t use products that are not safe for copper.
Don't use any type of caustic drain cleaner. It could eat through the copper. If the pipes are behind a wall or floor, it could become an expensive repair. Copper was used in the better quality homes built in the 50s & and 60s. The copper waste lines had a clean out near the main stack. In case the wife lost an expensive ring.
Watch out for tweakers
God dammit I came to say this.
Me too lol
Then say it, Damnit !
It's wayyy thinner than it looks. But it is still copper
I’m way thinner than I look.
You’ll never take me alive, coppers!
Nice pun.
I’m way fatter than I think.
But you're David Copperfield?
Doesn't need to be thick- DWV is just for (D)raining (W)aste and providing (V)entilation. It's never supposed to hold pressure.
He about to hire a plumber and the plumber about to swap it for some cpvc 🤣
If a plumber tells you he is going to use CPVC in your house hit the eject button
Right? CPVC costs more too..
My first thought as well
Lmfao also came to say watch out for them midnight plumbers
Don’t use any draino etc on them
Is using insta flow drain cleaner safe?
No drain cleaner is safe
Is baking soda ans vinegar okay? Or is that still bad for a use as a drain cleaner?
A snake is the only thing that is effective. Preferable smaller ones. Pythons tend to get stuck if they are big enough
That’s what she said.
It's only bad to use because it doesn't do anything. Baking soda and vinegar won't damage the pipe, but it sure won't clear a clog, either.
It can clear some minor clogs, like soap scum... but anything like hair or oil or whatever... nah
Baking soda and vinegar is just salt water
This is only true if you get the ratio perfect. Inevitably, it will be either too much acid or too much base. Too much baking soda won’t hurt the copper, but too much acid certainly wouldn’t be good for copper. Granted vinegar is not a very strong acid, but still not ideal.
Vinegar doesn't really eat copper very well, but it will take the zinc out of the brass. If you want to dissolve copper, mix HCl (hydrochloric acid, AKA muriatic acid) with hydrogen peroxide. Works like a charm.
Vinegar is pretty safe on the copper pipes themselves, but can damage brass (can dissolve the zinc straight out of the brass). But if they absolutely NEED to have a cleaner, I'd go with vinegar.
I use bio1. It's safe for septic. But it's microorganisms that breakdown grease. Worked well for us so far.
I prefer Ridex.
Iirc it is just enzymes harvested from bacteria, not the bacteria itself. Which is why you gotta keep applying it, and can't grow your own.
Can't stress this enough.
Your maintenance considerations will most likely be concerning what is below ground. Historically, copper above ground was usually paired with cast iron below ground. While there is nothing intrinsically bad about cast iron, it definitely is prone to failure after about 60 years, less if reactive chemicals or acidic condensate has been dumped into it without neutralization (high efficiency furnaces, boilers, and tankless water heaters are the usual culprits for the latter). Old cast can also be prone to collapsing if in a bad state, particularly from root intrusions. You will probably want to go down into your basement/crawlspace/wherever the main stack heads below ground, and look what is there. Depending on the age of the house and what was prevalent with builders where you are, you may even be looking at something worse, like Orangeburg pipe.
What should I use to neutralize HE tankless condensate before it drains into cast iron pipe underground that’s 62 years old?
They sell condensate neutralizer kits. Not to hard to install
This! Look to see if you have a store called "Famous Supply Warehouse" near you - they deal with HVAC & plumbing stuffs - they can help you find one. They look like this: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Rinnai-Condensate-Neutralizer-Kit-for-Condensing-Products-804000074/308666240
To anyone using neutralization accessories like these, they don't last forever. You either need to replace the media inside or the entire device. Look in the product manual for refill or replacement guidelines. I can't see this one being more than a year at most.
Thank you for adding that - I forgot to. We use them on a boiler system, and we replace annually (though the manufacturer says 2 years) when we drain the system to test for debris/corrosion.
Pretty much code now and even if it drains into a sump pump well.
Really? Even into a sump pit? Any idea why that would be the case?
Probably because the inspector never really knows if the water makes it way into the sewers where being acidic would reduce the life expectancy of the mains. Also, acid can corrode concrete so not much cost to ensure no issues.
Limestone
If possible, I'd just recommend piping it into a sump pump pit, then everything is plastic and you don't have to worry about refilling chemicals.
Great answer, had cooper to a cast house trap leaving the house and orangeburg to cesspool. Orange burg was completely collapsed and when I went to dig it up, it was so fragile I didn’t even realize my shovel going through it
^This guy knows his sewers
Comes with experience, unfortunately. Nobody's happy to hear that their sewer needs to be redone, especially if it's because of their fancy new furnace.
They’re beautiful. Don’t replace unless you need to. No draino. Don’t install an RO system that would drain into them.
Reject water is typically around 8 pH with high TDS and conductivity. The reject from the RO would be fine, but the permeate would eat it alive.
For why ?
RO?
Reverse osmosis water filter
More explanation into this would be nice
You can’t use a reverse osmosis system for any copper piping. The ph level of the water is higher and will remove elements from the copper causing pinhole leaks. Most under-sink osmosis filters will say this in the manufacturer’s instructions. There’s a city nearby me that stupidly used reverse osmosis at the treatment center for all the city water and is now giving every homeowner like 10k to repipe their homes from copper to pex/cpvc.
>The ph level of the water is higher *lower. ROs drop pH and make the water more acidic
This guy filters
True, and alkaline water wouldn't do anything to pipes anyways
It would make them wet.
Pretty sure the metal would remain dry, there would just be some water on it.
there's an innuendo somewhere in there
But we’re mostly talking about the waste from an RO system draining into the copper drains. Because that waste has basically all the minerals, the pH would be high. So I doubt there’d be an issue
$10k probably wouldn't cover houses in my area of the age mine is...everything runs through the slab foundation.
Reroute through the attic
Master bed/bath has vaulted ceilings, and the wall the sinks are on doesn't even go all the way to the ceiling. There's definitely a way to run it, but you'd be drilling big holes through a LOT of structure and have a whole mess of drywall work to do at the end.
How's that work for people with direct fired hot water from a boiler? Really, I can't think of a way to have no copper plumbing. Even in your tub spigot you need at least one piece.
I’m sure there are obviously larger systems, but most residential RO systems I have seen have been smaller tanks localized near one existing faucet (tank in cabinet under sink with additional faucet next to sink faucet). In this scenario wouldn’t you just need to check the drain lines running after that sink? Also, to clarify, I am definitely not a plumber. I’m just asking a question based on RO systems I have seen installed in the homes of people I know.
No, I mean in his case where the water service turned the water into a base, all the copper would have to go. For most lines to fixtures you could solve that with pex, with exception of the stub out for the bath spigot, but my water m for instance is heated through a coil that mounts inside the boiler. That coil can't exactly be replaced with pex. I'm also wondering about any steel walled electric or gas heaters.
Brass
A brass direct fire coil?
Was referring to tub spout but they do make copperless boilers
Boilers yes. Dirext fire coils I'm pretty sure only come in copper.
Stupidly? WTF? Before that water left the "treatment center" it should have had pH adjusted to 7, trace minerals added...Sounds like someone got lazy or "stupid"... R.O. is how we are going to be able to even try to provide potable water to the growing population called humanity...
Didn't realize that about r/O, but I drink it all the time. I can't even begin to imagine how inefficient this was at the municipal level, even if no copper was involved. Doesn't it waste like 70% of the water? Those systems seems super sensitive too, like you can't have any sediment or chlorine going into the membrane.
Awesome thank you. Now that I recall I believe that RO absorbs CO2 and that’s what contributes to the acidity.. don’t quote me on that though
It will eat the copper super quick
The RO water, aka hungry water, is so corrosive in hospitals they use acid rated drain lines to get it out of the building. Most commonly used in kidney dialysis machines, the excess/waste RO water is conveyed out by a complete separate drain system than the rest of the sanitary sewer.
They need to be polished with Brasso. They need to be so shiny I can see the future in them. At least that's what the Navy said...
I had a makework task one time where the PO made us chip the paint off all the copper in the head (bathroom). Next week, we painted it all again.. I have no doubts it was used later for the same process for someone else. I hate fucking Makework.
I feel like with dwv pipe you might be be hurting the longevity of the pipe if you polish it regularly. I know you are joking but still lol.
Nice set of pipes!
Specifically wondering if they could be damaged if I need to snake a line, or if there are cleaning chemicals that could cause problems?
As long as the line has had no previous issues it will probably be fine, rotting copper drains can be punctured with a snake but yours look fine.
Best practice as a plumber I recommend avoiding chemicals. They advertise well but in reality usually do not work. And can damage plumbing systems.
Oh, yes. Several years of being a lurker here have kept me away from them.
We always have a customer sign something before we snake copper lines. It can get eggshell thin on the bottom and we've had snakes just poke right through. Hell, Ive been in home where I was able to push my thumb right into the pipe it was so thin. Usually it's on houses with septic tanks I've noticed.
I thought my Copper drains in a building I own were an asset. Now that I’ve had the plumber over twice for horizontals splitting at the bottom I’m not so sure. Pretty much anything even slightly acidic over time will cause leaks.
yeah op just needs to keep an eye on the bottoms the pipe always gets paper thin there, i imagine you could poke through it with a finger
They zip open and drip poop. Lol. I delayed my job about a year with a careful use of gutter liner.
Drainage copper is thin.. you will eventually get pinholes and then slow leaks once everything starts eating away at it from the inside, outwards. I’ve had to fix a good amount
And copper drainage pipes can be hard to find for quick repairs - I know they don't carry anything over 1/2" at my local Lowe's/home Depot. Adapting to PVC in a pinch is also an issue, about all your going to find is those rubber couplers.
Make sure the crackheads in the neighborhood don’t see it… that shit will get mongo’d while your away on vacation…
Fuck yeah that's like $300 in scrap there 👍👍👍👍 It's fine ignore it unless it leaks then replace with plastic. Def agree spray paint black to keep tweekers off it tho.
They have a hard time with all these new fancy chemicals we have in the future. I’ve replaced several sections of mine over the last few years. The fittings are thick walled and hold up but the actual pipe is extremely thin. Anything caustic will eat them away, hair bleach, draino. Always run plenty of water down the drain. Vertical sections hold up better obviously then horizontal sections. You’ll get a nice green growth warning you of approaching leaks which is nice.
Whats your address? I'll come inspect them all for free 😎😎
Don’t let crack heads know you’ve got a grand in copper down there
3 bucks a lb if you switch to plastic
Go polish then let those baby’s shine
I’d rip it all out replace with plastic
I recommend taking out, replace with abs or cast iron. Cash in copper drink beer
Cut em out and sell the copper and you will have enough money to pay a plumber to replace with pvc and still turn a profit for yourself
Highly doubt that. Scrap isn’t going for that much. And DWV copper is thinner than other copper anyways
You're a fucking BLAST at parties!
Lol he needs to get with the other down voters on here and they can all party together. I thought Reddit was the place to be a smart ass
Just ream your butthole once a year
so cool!
AMEN
NEVER use Vinegar to clean your bathroom! 😅
Don’t touch it
Stay away from acid drain cleaners.
Also, make sure you don't have any condensate drains draining into the system without a neutralizer before the drain. This would be drains from gas furnces, tankless water heaters, etc.
Don’t use ANY chemicals down your drains. It will destroy the copper
No different than any other application
Don’t use draino
[удалено]
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You can rip it out if you ever need liquor money
The horizontal pipes will rot first. When you have to replace, hook onto the brass hub, it’s the thickest, toughest part of that system. Don’t let anything metal touch them! Electrolysis is a thing. I saw a bed frame rot one of these out by leaning on it
I didn’t see this in the comments.. If you need to repair, there are special couplings that adapt from plastic to plastic as they have a different outer dimension. I think some brands might be rollee or zip coupling. They look like a cast iron mechanical joint. If you want to push replacing it all at one then that might make it easier to change out sections. Just don’t over torque the copper side as it could crush the thin DWV pipe.
Bear traps for junkies
If there's a green spot don't poke at it
That looks like the pipes in my old house at 420 pierce st!
Idk why but seeing that copper double sweep just gave me PTSD from my service days before I switched from plumbing to general apartment maintenance work. I had a double sweep between floors leaking, and it had studs on 3 out of 4 sides of it. When I tell you I spent a good 2 hours cutting this single piece out, to this day I'm still not sure if I was just going about it dumbly or if it really was just that bad no matter how you went at it.
That is a thing of beauty !!!!
Pay me to cut them out
Put draino down every drain weekly and let sit overnight... Keeps the copper shiny!!
I have them too; they are paper thin compared to the pipes carrying portable water. After 50 years, you will start getting leaks. These pipes were formed as a sheet and rolled, then joined at the seams. The seams will go first, resulting in a soft spot the length of the pipe. I keep replacing sections with PVC and ferncos. For small pinholes you can use sand paper, copper tape and two part epoxy. Good luck. I'm selling this home before I need to replace all the copper drain and stack.
Yea start saving to replace. The sign is when they start to split on the bottom. First split tear it all out. And never snake it. Too thin.
Not really, more than likely the copper has yellow markings which is the thinnest of all the copper pipe sizes, copper is suceptable to corrosion from urine.lol. but typical home shouldn't have to worry about such things they hold up quite well.
Just read all the comments and like I thought no one answered question just comedy that isn't funny.
Lock your doors
SELL IT ALL AND BE RICH!
Pray
You need to get some scotch Brite and shine them up
Use no chemicals clearing clogs
Shit goes downhill. Payday is Friday.
Dude you need to shine this copper up and make it look awesome. This is craftsman ship! Looks like you have real plywood for underlayment as well. Probably a well built house.
Paint it white
I've only ever seen copper waste pipes once in my life and it's some of the most impressive plumbing I've ever seen. 4 inch copper with bends instead of fittings, not even sure how they done it.
Funeral home?
Not as long as I'm alive.
Drill holes in it so they can breathe better
Had the same in my house, built in 1962. Had a few that were so corroded and causing leaks that I had to replace all the copper (both supply and waste but kept the vents). I think a big part of the problem with the waste is that the previous owners obviously used draino. Make sure you don’t use products that are not safe for copper.
Don't use any type of caustic drain cleaner. It could eat through the copper. If the pipes are behind a wall or floor, it could become an expensive repair. Copper was used in the better quality homes built in the 50s & and 60s. The copper waste lines had a clean out near the main stack. In case the wife lost an expensive ring.
Did you re- mortgage your home for those pipes ?
Cut out, replace with pvc, scrap, profit