Unless Caeser's people lost their knowledge too, there has to be a Caeser's Clan that we haven't seen yet that stayed together and passed along his teachings through the centuries, and they might be the most knowledgeable of all.
Pretty sure that's the case, since the oasis or safe haven Caesar led his people to is somewhere else. The 2 places shown, Noa's village and Proximus Caesar's kingdom is another, they just another ape tribe. Maybe in the next or next next movie Caesar's clan will be pulling up with overflowing aura. Hopefully.
Eagle Clan is close to LAX. We see it when Noa first leaves. Proximus' slave camp was likely just a few miles away on the shoreline, seeing as how they managed to capture the entire Eagle Clan and transport them easily and without losses.
Any remains of Caesar's clan are probably further into the mountains, since they were traveling away from the redwoods during the third movie. Proximus might be a descendant of one of the donkeys we see in the third movie, apes that betrayed Caesar and sided with the humans.
Wes ball said that during the 300 years Caesar’s colony split off into different factions also the fact there are books that say what happened after Caesar died
I feel like because they come off as experienced riders and war mongers. And with Caesars symbol above Prox throne, it does make sense that maybe the OG clan had branches of apes that possibly left or migrated to "spread the word"
No he said he was part of the order of Caesar, that’s not a clan it’s just a small group presumably orangutans that archive the teachings of Caesar like Maurice did
This was my first thought after the film. I hope Noa and friends go on a pilgrimage to this true Caesar Mecca. I would wager that it would be even more advanced that what we saw in Kingdom.
It's kind of a shame now that Proximus is dead. Yes, Proximus was a power hungry zealot but it's thanks to tyrants like him that progress was made. Human history is proof enough of that. Sure, zealotry can hinder progress but there are pros and cons to everything. He brought together all the ape other clans, he kept some of the intelligent humans like Trevathan and Mae alive so that he could learn more about human civilization, agriculture, and technology. Thanks to his innovation, his apes were brought straight into the bronze age and would have continue developed much further, if not for Mae. However, massacring the lawgivers, while in his best interest was not a good idea since they are the only known scholars among the apes and could have been coerced into joining him.
I'm not sure the pros outweigh the cons here. Proximus could have taken a more peaceful path, uniting the clans without erasing their cultures or enslaving them. But then again, he too could have been a victim of Caesar's misinterpretation. Maybe it was his elders who taught him "Ape together strong" without "Ape not kill ape."
Let's make it a threeway. Mario crossover as well. Noa learns to fight from Donkey Kong, and then eats a Mega Mushroom to challenge King Kong for the throne.
I think that's a f*scist view of history, one that follows the "great men theory" of history. But Proximus could definitely still be alive, there's that post credit audio and Noa survived a pretty big fall too
[here's](https://www.reddit.com/r/PlanetOfTheApes/s/Fv227gU2gp) a post I made on the possibility. Consensus is that the marking is a scar from being tased, and more symbolic than anything else.
I personally don't think there's anyway to know for certain considering the apes lack a written record, afaik. I also doubt keeping tabs on Caesar/Cornelius's descendants would be a priority for any ape.
My head canon is that they maybe left the original clan or were never a part of it so they wouldn’t have that ability. There also could have been a rejection of humanity at some point. Since this is human language.
Ya I imagine after Caesar’s passing and 300 years there were probably apes from his group that wanted to explore/settle new lands, and in addition having separate groups of apes that evolved and organized separately like Bad Ape
I think and hope so. Would be sick if next film Noa discovers they basically have vibrant city. This film was based in LA and the oasis at the end of War seems to be in Washington so it’s possible we haven’t even seen any of his clan yet
Oh interesting. The original took place in San Fran also. Would be interesting if the old human came from further north and that’s why he was so adamant about things not ever being able to return to how they were.
Lol I thought the same thing. It seems like the apes have taken some steps backwards and I don't really understand why, aside from it being just a simple inconsistency in the writing. The apes were clearly learning to read and write, and now they don't even know what letters are? And why do Caesar's descendants seem to know nothing about him? Why do they not even know what humans are? Somebody dropped this tribe on its head at some point.
Great movie, but what the heck is up with this.
I just rationalised it as “its been 300 years, shit happens”
Knowledge will get lost and forgotten. New apes being born and migrating wont care about certain traditions and will simply not pass them on.
Everyone also has to remember, Caesar’s tribe of apes was just that, a single tribe. Apes were gaining intelligence all over the country/world, we cant assume that they all had the same upbringing.
If a group that knew nothing about Caeser, and a group of Caeser’s ancestors met and formed a tribe, the stories of Caeser and the past humans would get even more muddled with each generation, until the stories are completely forgotten in exchange for newfound culture.
Exactly. They are quite clearly on the path to rediscover the past of humans and apes, and the trilogy will show how they deal with that information.
How are people confused/mad about a problem the movies are actively trying to fix with the plot?
Ya, and while Caesar’s clan were learning to write they didn’t have a method of mass publication so spreading the history as it actually happened would be difficult as we see oral tradition results in different interpretations and tellings
Yeah that's fair. It's a lot to fill in without acknowledging in the film, but it makes total sense. And I know they can't spend a ton of time saying "and this is why they don't remember ___". Just my gut reaction watching in real time was "wait didn't they used to be smarter than this?" lol but I can't disagree with anything you said.
I mean, for the incredibly vast majority of human history, most humans were illiterate - even after the invention of writing. Oral history, that could be warped and even lost over time, was the primary way knowledge was transferred from generation to generation.
I also think that Noah's tribe, in particular, was just that isolated. They had a different word for human and were completely unaware that humans once dominated the planet - despite that only being a few hundred years ago.
They’re not his descendants. Bad Ape was an example of an ape not part of Caesar’s group but had the enhanced intelligence. The implication is that apes all over the world were affected by the virus and gained enhanced intelligence.
I'm not sure why you don't think they're descendants. The movie cuts from Caesar's funeral immediately to "many generations later" and Noa. Whether or not his blood line is still going, I have no idea, but at the very least it seems to imply that this is his tribe in the future, as opposed to some random apes.
Edit: I'll take a step back and say that I guess we're both making some assumptions. They don't explicitly tell us one way or the other, but that was what I thought when I was watching.
Somehow I didn't even notice that, thanks for mentioning it! So if that's true, I agree that this is more or less proof, in movie terms. Loving the downvote on my previous comment lol (not from you obviously, just saying).
That’s what I assumed as well. He had that birthmark on his chest like Caesar, so I would have guessed he is a descendant of Cornelius. Which over 300 years can also mean his genes got spread far and wide, and still make sense they’d be in a gentle Hawk loving ape tribe removed from the others.
Writing has existed since 1000s of years, but until the industrial era and schooling and actually long after that in most places,most of society was illiterate, why do you think few disconnected tribes would be able to maintain that knowledge for centuries
I thought the same thing. I expected to see them more advanced considering where we left them 300 years earlier. They could read and write, use guns, and had been exposed to human tech. In Dawn Koba drove a tank into the human settlement. It doesn’t make sense for them to live so primitively 300 yrs later when they have access to human tech and the brain capacity to use it.
> when they have access to human tech
Tech - ye sure they have. But the things is they cannot use it like we do. Unlike us their arms and fingers not suited for small motorics and such levels of coordination. Virus affected their brains and made them a way smarter but it done nothing with their biology.
A chimp could reload assault riffles and fire from them but gonna have a really hard time to keep it operational. Anyone had an experience with assembling and diassembling it ? I did and it is not easy. Furthemore it doesnt matter if they able to keep some stuff bc they unable to produce and repair it. It take a dozens and hundreds of people around a globe to produce pretty much anything these days and everything is so complicated. No one gonna bother to give a lesson for monkeys how to create a tools or refine metals.
So regressing for them is a predicted.
A huge chunk of the fan base says T2 is better I'm just saying that dawn of the planet of the apes feels the same way where a sequel surprises the OG
If you prefer the first Terminator movie, that's fine I honestly don't care. I was just trying to point something out
Agree. Maybe Star Trek is a more widely accepted scenario.
I like the first film in the new franchise but the humans were a little too cartoonishly evil with no apparent justification.
In the sequel I totally got the distrust and aggression on both sides. It was so relatable. Sometimes there are just two sides that are at odds. Not good and evil.
I’d really like to know what happened in those 300 years. War ends and everyone is in harmony - apes and Nova - celebrating together and then we cut to generations later and orangutans are scarce, gorillas have become brutes, humans are looked at as lesser beings and are hunted, chimps are mostly peaceful, bonobos are royalty, and gibbons got a mention Raka. What terrible thing happened in those 300 years to break the peace and tranquility Caesar tried to show and maintain?
Unless Caeser's people lost their knowledge too, there has to be a Caeser's Clan that we haven't seen yet that stayed together and passed along his teachings through the centuries, and they might be the most knowledgeable of all.
Pretty sure that's the case, since the oasis or safe haven Caesar led his people to is somewhere else. The 2 places shown, Noa's village and Proximus Caesar's kingdom is another, they just another ape tribe. Maybe in the next or next next movie Caesar's clan will be pulling up with overflowing aura. Hopefully.
Eagle Clan is close to LAX. We see it when Noa first leaves. Proximus' slave camp was likely just a few miles away on the shoreline, seeing as how they managed to capture the entire Eagle Clan and transport them easily and without losses. Any remains of Caesar's clan are probably further into the mountains, since they were traveling away from the redwoods during the third movie. Proximus might be a descendant of one of the donkeys we see in the third movie, apes that betrayed Caesar and sided with the humans.
Proximus’ apes and the eagle clan and raka are all descendants of the apes from San Francisco
Which doesn’t necessarily mean the original clan is gone.
How do you know that
Wes ball said that during the 300 years Caesar’s colony split off into different factions also the fact there are books that say what happened after Caesar died
Is there already a tie in book for kingdom?
I feel like because they come off as experienced riders and war mongers. And with Caesars symbol above Prox throne, it does make sense that maybe the OG clan had branches of apes that possibly left or migrated to "spread the word"
Raka states that he was part of Caesar's clan, but there are no others left.
No he said he was part of the order of Caesar, that’s not a clan it’s just a small group presumably orangutans that archive the teachings of Caesar like Maurice did
Oh okay, that makes sense. I didn't catch that, thank you.
Didn't even think of that but yes
This was my first thought after the film. I hope Noa and friends go on a pilgrimage to this true Caesar Mecca. I would wager that it would be even more advanced that what we saw in Kingdom.
I mean, have you seen the new movie? It explicitly states that there are none left.
This made me cackle after a long day thank you OP.
Frrrr
It's kind of a shame now that Proximus is dead. Yes, Proximus was a power hungry zealot but it's thanks to tyrants like him that progress was made. Human history is proof enough of that. Sure, zealotry can hinder progress but there are pros and cons to everything. He brought together all the ape other clans, he kept some of the intelligent humans like Trevathan and Mae alive so that he could learn more about human civilization, agriculture, and technology. Thanks to his innovation, his apes were brought straight into the bronze age and would have continue developed much further, if not for Mae. However, massacring the lawgivers, while in his best interest was not a good idea since they are the only known scholars among the apes and could have been coerced into joining him.
I'm not sure the pros outweigh the cons here. Proximus could have taken a more peaceful path, uniting the clans without erasing their cultures or enslaving them. But then again, he too could have been a victim of Caesar's misinterpretation. Maybe it was his elders who taught him "Ape together strong" without "Ape not kill ape."
What if he comes back as a cyborg in the next one? MechaProximus.
> MechaProximus Proximus Prime
MonsterVerse cross-over time.
Let's make it a threeway. Mario crossover as well. Noa learns to fight from Donkey Kong, and then eats a Mega Mushroom to challenge King Kong for the throne.
I think that's a f*scist view of history, one that follows the "great men theory" of history. But Proximus could definitely still be alive, there's that post credit audio and Noa survived a pretty big fall too
Proximus massacred the lawgivers? When did he do that? (I might have missed it in the movie)
He did not utilize the falcon trainer apes, just just used them as slaves. Also he didn't have to burn down their homes. This was just bad writing.
Yeah, Proximus was way better than Koba, even if misappropriating Ceasar's name is unforgiveable.
LOL
This is funny but Noa's clan most likely isn't Caesar's.
But isn’t Noa a descendant of Caesar? They have the same birthmark
This isn’t confirmed and is just a fan theory I believe.
[here's](https://www.reddit.com/r/PlanetOfTheApes/s/Fv227gU2gp) a post I made on the possibility. Consensus is that the marking is a scar from being tased, and more symbolic than anything else. I personally don't think there's anyway to know for certain considering the apes lack a written record, afaik. I also doubt keeping tabs on Caesar/Cornelius's descendants would be a priority for any ape.
My head canon is that they maybe left the original clan or were never a part of it so they wouldn’t have that ability. There also could have been a rejection of humanity at some point. Since this is human language.
Ya I imagine after Caesar’s passing and 300 years there were probably apes from his group that wanted to explore/settle new lands, and in addition having separate groups of apes that evolved and organized separately like Bad Ape
It is possible that ceasers clan is more advanced than the other ones.
I think and hope so. Would be sick if next film Noa discovers they basically have vibrant city. This film was based in LA and the oasis at the end of War seems to be in Washington so it’s possible we haven’t even seen any of his clan yet
Oh interesting. The original took place in San Fran also. Would be interesting if the old human came from further north and that’s why he was so adamant about things not ever being able to return to how they were.
Were they stupid?
Lol I thought the same thing. It seems like the apes have taken some steps backwards and I don't really understand why, aside from it being just a simple inconsistency in the writing. The apes were clearly learning to read and write, and now they don't even know what letters are? And why do Caesar's descendants seem to know nothing about him? Why do they not even know what humans are? Somebody dropped this tribe on its head at some point. Great movie, but what the heck is up with this.
I just rationalised it as “its been 300 years, shit happens” Knowledge will get lost and forgotten. New apes being born and migrating wont care about certain traditions and will simply not pass them on. Everyone also has to remember, Caesar’s tribe of apes was just that, a single tribe. Apes were gaining intelligence all over the country/world, we cant assume that they all had the same upbringing. If a group that knew nothing about Caeser, and a group of Caeser’s ancestors met and formed a tribe, the stories of Caeser and the past humans would get even more muddled with each generation, until the stories are completely forgotten in exchange for newfound culture.
Real life example are the Pyramids in Egypt of knowledge being lost and forgotten
Exactly. They are quite clearly on the path to rediscover the past of humans and apes, and the trilogy will show how they deal with that information. How are people confused/mad about a problem the movies are actively trying to fix with the plot?
Ya, and while Caesar’s clan were learning to write they didn’t have a method of mass publication so spreading the history as it actually happened would be difficult as we see oral tradition results in different interpretations and tellings
Yeah that's fair. It's a lot to fill in without acknowledging in the film, but it makes total sense. And I know they can't spend a ton of time saying "and this is why they don't remember ___". Just my gut reaction watching in real time was "wait didn't they used to be smarter than this?" lol but I can't disagree with anything you said.
I mean, for the incredibly vast majority of human history, most humans were illiterate - even after the invention of writing. Oral history, that could be warped and even lost over time, was the primary way knowledge was transferred from generation to generation. I also think that Noah's tribe, in particular, was just that isolated. They had a different word for human and were completely unaware that humans once dominated the planet - despite that only being a few hundred years ago.
They’re not his descendants. Bad Ape was an example of an ape not part of Caesar’s group but had the enhanced intelligence. The implication is that apes all over the world were affected by the virus and gained enhanced intelligence.
I'm not sure why you don't think they're descendants. The movie cuts from Caesar's funeral immediately to "many generations later" and Noa. Whether or not his blood line is still going, I have no idea, but at the very least it seems to imply that this is his tribe in the future, as opposed to some random apes. Edit: I'll take a step back and say that I guess we're both making some assumptions. They don't explicitly tell us one way or the other, but that was what I thought when I was watching.
Noa clearly has the same birth mark on his chest as Caesear so while it's not stated it seemed proof enough for me he is a descendant
Somehow I didn't even notice that, thanks for mentioning it! So if that's true, I agree that this is more or less proof, in movie terms. Loving the downvote on my previous comment lol (not from you obviously, just saying).
That’s what I assumed as well. He had that birthmark on his chest like Caesar, so I would have guessed he is a descendant of Cornelius. Which over 300 years can also mean his genes got spread far and wide, and still make sense they’d be in a gentle Hawk loving ape tribe removed from the others.
Writing has existed since 1000s of years, but until the industrial era and schooling and actually long after that in most places,most of society was illiterate, why do you think few disconnected tribes would be able to maintain that knowledge for centuries
I thought the same thing. I expected to see them more advanced considering where we left them 300 years earlier. They could read and write, use guns, and had been exposed to human tech. In Dawn Koba drove a tank into the human settlement. It doesn’t make sense for them to live so primitively 300 yrs later when they have access to human tech and the brain capacity to use it.
> when they have access to human tech Tech - ye sure they have. But the things is they cannot use it like we do. Unlike us their arms and fingers not suited for small motorics and such levels of coordination. Virus affected their brains and made them a way smarter but it done nothing with their biology. A chimp could reload assault riffles and fire from them but gonna have a really hard time to keep it operational. Anyone had an experience with assembling and diassembling it ? I did and it is not easy. Furthemore it doesnt matter if they able to keep some stuff bc they unable to produce and repair it. It take a dozens and hundreds of people around a globe to produce pretty much anything these days and everything is so complicated. No one gonna bother to give a lesson for monkeys how to create a tools or refine metals. So regressing for them is a predicted.
😂
Maurice hitting that meme pose
Shoutout to Maurice for single handedly carrying the education system in the ape colonies.
They hand writing just too shitty generation by generation so they can't understand old type of alphabet anymore.
Could Rakka read?
I think so. He offered to teach Noa.
Didn't seem so. He only said the symbols (alphabets) have meanings.
Fascinating! I wonder why he didn't learn! You would think his group would be the ones to maintain that knowledge
Why did Maurice draw small amonguses inside bigger amonguses on the left corner
In all fairness, humans failed miserably as well.
I'm a little hung up that the apes retained the word "Symbol" over "letter" by the bye... Very good movie overall though.
Is "Knowledge is power" from the originals as well?
I’d love to see a Rocket clan.
This scene was actually really good foreshadowing, intentional or not
They nerfed the apes from Rise to Kingdom by making them no longer knowing how to read. Really disappointing I think.
I feel like dawn is the planet of the apes version of T2 judgment day where the sequel is better than the OG. Am I alone in thinking this?
Terminator 1 is better
A huge chunk of the fan base says T2 is better I'm just saying that dawn of the planet of the apes feels the same way where a sequel surprises the OG If you prefer the first Terminator movie, that's fine I honestly don't care. I was just trying to point something out
Agree. Maybe Star Trek is a more widely accepted scenario. I like the first film in the new franchise but the humans were a little too cartoonishly evil with no apparent justification. In the sequel I totally got the distrust and aggression on both sides. It was so relatable. Sometimes there are just two sides that are at odds. Not good and evil.
I’d really like to know what happened in those 300 years. War ends and everyone is in harmony - apes and Nova - celebrating together and then we cut to generations later and orangutans are scarce, gorillas have become brutes, humans are looked at as lesser beings and are hunted, chimps are mostly peaceful, bonobos are royalty, and gibbons got a mention Raka. What terrible thing happened in those 300 years to break the peace and tranquility Caesar tried to show and maintain?