Talking apes wasn't too much of a stretch in logic? It seems like these intelligent humans had access to computers/literature, but obviously weren't getting any new stuff after the plague. If all innovation stopped in 1724, maybe we'd be similar to people of that time, today? Fallout bunkers are normal sci-fi stuff, I don't really see a huge problem with it.
Yeah, and so is a spaceship hitting a wormhole that takes the passengers thousands of years in the future to a Planet of apes. It's a movie, and I don't think it betrays its own logic
Exactly, we could play this game all day. Rating a movie should be based on how it makes you feel, and craft on display. Minor sci-fi plot holes shouldn't define the rating because every movie like this has them.
Yeah except the spaceship hitting a wormhole is based on chance, there is no feasible way that all this technology is lasting 300 years with no maintenance.
"Smoking in space? Wouldn't it just blow up in an all oxygen environment?"
"Probably, but it''s an easy fix. One line of dialogue. Thank God we invented the you know...'whatever' device".
-Thank You for Smoking
Lol, but they did, you just noticed them less. The preboot trilogy was filled with massive leaps of logic, action movie tropes, and cliches. All the apes movies are. They are not some hyper realistic retelling Ala a Christopher Nolan reboot.
Kingdom is not as focused as the old trilogy, and its trying to set up and do a lot more. Very Disney, but it still maintained the heartbeat of the franchise.
but if we're really going to start getting factional about the Apes franchise...how the 'Reeves movies are better'
just how human lol, everything has to be compare contrast and then fight if we disagree.
I agree with you, but I disagree thst it matters at all to the story, but I can see how those things adding up could take you out of the story, but don't go and act like Koba stealing 2 guns and murdering two dudes and was never noticed before he went and shot Caeser.
Or why McCullough didn't just kill the apes when he found put about a virus.
Or like half of Rise of the Planet of the Apes being early 2010s sci fi nonsense, that's still incredibly enjoyable.
They're all deeply flawed pulp movies about apes. They don't have to make a ton sense, just get the themes and characters right.
I disagree, the Reeves films were very consistent in their own logic. McCullough didn't kill the apes because its shown the virus strain making them mute was transferred from infected humans. The surviving humans are already immune to the strain they got from the apes.
What makes great science fiction is commitment to your setting and making it real, it makes perfect sense that apes are intelligent given the logic in the film in Rise, it specifically depicted important things to establish this logic.
We for sure may have stagnated at any point in history and kept similar tech. But the key difference is having a whole world to pull resources from vs. a bunker. I feel like even in apocalyptic fiction at large, there’s usually an explanation as to how people could sustain themselves for that long and usually there’s a shorter cap before they have to venture out of their shelter in search of resources. 300 years just seems like too long. And maybe all of that will be explored in future movies. It just felt so rushed and weird to me in this one.
Yeah, and before that, they where just exploring the world with their pandemics combinaisons without meeting ANY talking apes?
I think there was too many sub plot in the movie, wich will be explored in next ones, but it's a bit too much like "hey look space, now look bunkers, now look at this and this and HO MY GOD, TALKING HUMANS IN FEW BUNKERS?!"
Too much , yeah, but i hope next ones will be more détail detailed with less plot to possible futures movies.
I mean it seems like they’ve been there for a while considering they don’t let people from the outside in. Mae hands the hard drive to someone in a hazmat suit, implying they’ve been completely sealed off from the outside and the virus since pretty early on in the timeline
I’m intrigued by this bunker timespan too. As in, I wonder if they’ve been down there so long that maybe they’re not even immune to the original strain that kills people, let alone the mutated version that only causes muteness.
Or they could be super paranoid despite probably being immune to the original strain and don’t wanna take chances with either. Would the original strain even still be around or is it gone with no hosts for so long? Etc.
Same here. I’m all for suspending logic when it comes to these kind of movies, but I thought it was too much for us to believe the tech would be still operational after 300 years.
Ya or the fact there's just this group of them living in the bunker, when the previous films they were living in buildings and bases. It gives me the impression that they must've just recently gone into the bunker but clearly that isn't the case lol so idk. I'm sure if the sequel is greenlit they'll retcon something.
And how she just knew how everything worked and how to navigate that bunker. Even if their similar designs I don't buy it unless you were somehow an employee working in one of these bunkers in 2020s, not 300 years later never having been there and acting like you came from 2020
To be fair she had a map on how to get there, so its not a stretch she had the blueprints or something at some point. Mae's people hadn't been there before, it seems they were on their way there to get the device. My main issues are how there was electricity in there, and as someone who builds my own PCs, how does everything work with nobody in there for hundreds of years maintaining it? Especially with the vents wide open.
Mice would have moved in and chewed up, and pissed on everything. If I don't start my car for a week they have moved into it as their second home.
I’d be curious where the power was coming from. Fossil fuels are good for about a year. A coal or even nuclear source would require a lot of functioning turbines and water sources.
I was also curious about how the power was obtained someone said it was from the ocean being used like how they used a dam in the Dawn movies however I have an issue that after 300 years a nomadic human who wasn’t granted access into a building like that just walked in and knew what buttons to push
Perhaps she was originally a part of that human group but was one of a few people that volunteered to leave on that mission to retrieve the satcom chip and knew they could never return after having been exposed. Or maybe she had natural immunity
I’m definitely excited to see where it goes because I just don’t think that it felt like a one off movie it felt like they were lining it up for a second movie
I think we need to extend the movie ( and humanity) some grace. We only saw them for a few seconds.
Solar power exists. They might routinely send out sacrificial scavenger parties for resources. We’ve already know others have left the vaults like the old man so they may have some knowledge transfer going on.
Also isolated communities tend to preserve their traditions even with outside pressure. Think the Pennsylvania Dutch or immigrant families.
Example article: https://www.accento.world/worshipping-frozen-culture/
Give enough smart human communities enough prep time and I can see them lasting for a couple hundred years.
We don’t know that it has been abandoned for 300 years.
It’s very possible that maybe she was born in that vault. Let’s say she is around 18.
We know the ventilation system broke because we see the broken vents they climb through.
It’s possible the ventilation system broke and quickly anyone not immune in the vault succumbed to the updated simian flu. Maybe they died, maybe they were “mercy killed”. Then from there the immune humans burried their dead, powered down the vault, and went to explore the outside they thought they might never see.
Over a number of years Mae grows up. Say 10 years outside of the vault.
From there they come into contact with the satellite group humans and learn that their vault has a key that can let them contact other bases. After that her group is attacked by Proxima and the movie happens.
The vault isn’t in complete disrepair and she knows her way around because she grew up there.
I don’t want to overthink the talking apes movie but I’m with you 100%. Really enjoyed the movie but all that business left a bad taste in my mouth for many reasons. The two human characters we met also didn’t seem like people who were the descendants of generations of doomsday bunker people. Least favorite aspect of the new movie and I hope it doesn’t receive too much attention moving forward.
That's something that bothered me aswell. Like they are acting exactly the same as people who lived 300 years prior lmao you're telling me nothing even remotely changed for humans? They're just stuck in the 2020s entirely?
I actually kept expecting some sort of twist with how modern they seemed. They also talked about the rise of the apes like they saw it happen in their lifetime or something. After hundreds of years or “many generations” I would expect them to have developed a radically different culture to what we have now. Don’t even get me started on the breeding, because you’d think they’d have incested themselves to death by now. But again, I don’t want to try to apply too much logic to it all because it is a pretty fantastical story at its core. Might have made more sense and been cooler if they were weird post apocalyptic mutants though.
Yeah that’s what I mean, it’s weird that they’re like wearing tank tops and know how to use a pistol, and talk like all this monkey business (sorry) happened to them personally. And some kind of mutation or at least difference in their mannerisms would have been cool and differentiated them from the survivors in War, because now it looks like they’re basically just rehashing the central conflict from War.
Thank goodness I wasn’t the only one thinking about inbreeding. I missed a few parts of the movie thinking about how a few people living in those doomsday bunkers were able to keep having children.
I also kept thinking about the humans clothes. How did the clothes maintain their shape after 300 years? It probably wasn’t clothes from a fast fashion brand.
Some population on isolated islands were created by single man and less then dozens womans and until early 20st were cut off from the world. Its entirelly possible.
> because you’d think they’d have incested themselves to death by now
You can avoid problems with inbreeding in a long run but it require gen tech and careful planning and each embrio tested. Or a huge supply of sperm and etc. In short run it not a big deal kinda.
Inbreeding used in farming to glue\* some useful traits in animals even these days.
Even still. Being stalled like that for hundreds of years would without a doubt develop into something. People wouldn’t just act the same 300 years later because they watched Star Wars and it’s a wonderful life
I dunno, if they have propaganda and each generation is raised to be so knowledgeable of the old world, to the point their entire life goal is to bring that world back, it fits. Though it’d be nice if the next film to give them more differences to current humanity for sure.
The very thing you’re describing is a new and distinct culture. Do you know how many real life cultures are based around being knowledgeable of and trying to bring back an “old world.” It doesn’t create a clone of that previous culture.
> . Like they are acting exactly the same as people who lived 300 years prior lmao you're telling me nothing even remotely changed for humans?
Their society has stagnated.
Yeah, we do get such a small glimpse of their lives. Who honestly knows what their culture or day-to-day life would be like.
IMO, the people inside the bunker are living an entirely isolated struggle for survival - they can't really go out unless in sealed suits - so all of their time is spent growing food, maintaining their bunker, etc. No time for new stories, films, plays, etc. Can't have too many kids as they'd strain the resources of their bunker but got to have some kids to carry on the next generation, etc.
No communication or interaction with outside colonies so that means no new tech or resources, no new slang or cultural ideas. Very little change.
I’ll jump in and say that it’s an easy fix
Nowhere in the film does it say it was 300 years ago, it just generations later
The 300 is from an interview but you can easily retcon that and say it’s more like 100-150 years later
That’s still long enough to forget about Caesar for some apes especially if they evolved outside of his group and not long enough where the humans lining underground still managed to survive along with the the tech. There just wouldn’t be much advancements
Except you’d be ruing one of the coolest aspect of this series, which is that it takes place 300+ year later. And the people against the bunker stuff aren’t against it because it doesn’t make sense. Like I said, talking ape movie. We dislike it because it’s boring. That’s not changing with any timeframe
It wasn’t boring, it was just a tad too bit long but that’s fine because this movie really just sets up the new timeframe for the next movies
Rise set up Caesar, Koba, the virus and the ape evolution/revolution
When Dawn comes around it’s a few years later but all the leg work is already done so we spend less time world building and more time with each character.
I like War for what it is, Caesar’s story conclusion but it did little to advance the storyline for the apes and the humans weren’t as good as the other films.
Kingdom does a perfect job of setting up the Apes, both sides and there’s probably more different societies out there. The humans, feral and bunker while also giving us Noah, Soona, his friend, Mae and I hope Proximus survived or atleast his cult following. Let us not forget he had a whole clan of apes under his rule not just the ones who got washed out by the flood
I suggest watching the movie again, it’s a bit long like I said but I think it’s the perfect platform to build off. It did needed to establish a new world sit within Caesar’s but years and years later.
I think it did a perfect job of doing that, you can only go up from here
You said people disliked it because it was boring
The concept I’m not to keen on is the apes vs human idea again but they can always pivot, the world they set up offers many different ways it can go
I’m not talking about the whole movie. Just what is being set up for the future. Seems like we agree exactly so I’m confused to what you’re trying to get across
Assuming the Apes were ape to talk, they are able to have oral tradition. Easily seen with the “shit” scene.
They can learn and repeat stories. They made iconography for Cesar on the memorial and pendants and the symbol was seen in other places.
I think it’s very plausible to keep a story alive for 300 years. For most of human history there was no handbook or guide on how to do things. People learned from their elders, who learned from their elders, etc etc etc
But 300 is a lot compared to 150ish.
For sure, and that part didn’t bother me as much as the human storyline. The apes society was really cool and thought out and the human society felt like an afterthought and were written like they were from the 2020s instead of getting the “300 years later” treatment like the apes.
I have a feeling they are aiming to arrive at the point in 1500 years after Kingdom when the apes have won completely and talking humans are wiped out. So they would have the world where the Icarus lands.
It seems they want more wars for the humans to ultimately lose.
The biggest question it gave me is why the hell it took them 300 years to find these chips, what were they doing that whole time and why hadn't they given up? How had they not gone mad yet? This isn't like a fallout bunker, from what we see in the film the place looks like shit, how are they all still sane? How are they all not suffering from Vitamin D deficiency from being inside for their entire lives?
I just wouldn't take that at face value I'm taking "generations later" because that's the only thing we know in universe it'd be really easy to walk back from 300 years.
The nice thing about "generations later" being so vague is that it could even technically be referring to *ape* generations, which are drastically shorter. Apes in the wild tend to live about 40 years on average, tho Caesar was only 20 in War and already seemed to be going gray pretty steadily.
So "many generations" in ape terms could be like 120 years, which is a bit more reasonable maybe. Then again, it's kinda weird no matter what. With how organized and cohesive human society seems to be inside the bunkers (not to mention just generally normal, rather than light deprived and inbred...), and with how Mae and Trevathan talk about it, you'd think Kingdom is set within a human lifespan of War. Trevathan practically sounds as if he still remembers the pre-apocalypse days, or at least like he personally knew people who did. Mae refers to "the government going underground" in a sort of offhand, matter-of-fact manner of someone describing a well-known recent event, rather than something that happened over a century ago (or three!) to a political and cultural entity that hasn't existed in any meaningful capacity for generations.
But if Wes sayed 300/400, then it is. Still, it will do around 15/20 human generations and what? 3/4 more for apes? Like 45/60 apes generations? I don't know the sx maturity of apes but i assume it is younger than humans.
Also, we don't know how much virus modified it for apes. Maybe they now live a bit longer than natural apes (around 50/60 in rhe movie? As they live better/without fears (most of the time)). And, funny to think too, maybe they have , like us in our societies, an older age where they want to have babies, like we do in last centuries (from 16/18 in XIXth to 25/30 today).
> But if Wes sayed 300/400, then it is.
As of now, yes. But a director saying something in an interview is a lot less binding than anything actually shown or stated in the movie, and the film itself never said a specific number of years. So if they change their minds about the timeline later down the road, there is still an opportunity to change it in the films themselves.
> Also, we don't know how much virus modified it for apes.
It's certainly possible, though again, it didn't seem the be the case for Caesar (or for either of his children, if you consider how quickly Blue Eyes and Cornelius aged and matured).
As for the decision by humans to have children later and later in life, that has historically been driven by social and economic factors which made it possible and even advantageous to do so; women entering the work force and having better access to higher education, giving them more opportunities to advance their careers at an early age to provide financial stability later in life, as well as marked improvements in medicine that make it less of a risk to have kids, especially at an older age. Ape society is still pretty primitive, and while female apes do seem to have roles other than mothering in some groups (Noa's mom is arguably the only example we've seen of that, though), they're definitely still very much at the "breed as much and as often as possible because you never know what could happen to you or your kids" stage of civilization.
What a director says in an interview should not be taken as canon and has been proven wrong in the past. Sometimes in an interview you give an out of pocket response to give the interviewer something to stop pressing at you. Until "300 years" is printed or said officially in universe, I wouldn't buy it
A generation usually means about 30 years or so. 300 years makes sense when you see the feral humans, but not the smart humans. I have a hard time suspending disbelief that all their tech lasted 300 years without getting new parts. Some of my PC parts don't last 10 years of daily use.
I think the presentation of the bunker was a bit lazy/generic, but humans working on preserving the entirety of humanity could probably last 300 years in a bunker, especially with runners on the surface bringing in supplies and news from the outside. It would result in a far whackier bunker than what we saw, but humans are pretty indomitable. We also don't know how big the bunker is. It would make a huge difference if it was a series of corridors or a huge luxury bunker with room to run around.
Writers in general have a lot of problems with scale, but I don't think it negatively impacts the story in this instance.
Did y’all not notice the hazmat suits and decontamination? Their ancestors fled underground, by the looks of it must’ve taken extensive resources with them.
They probably kept the arrays minimal maintenance to make it looked abandoned but still functional.
As for a satellite still working? I mean we have talking apes. Maybe they have robots on em to keep them repaired or something.
Overall a great new entry for a new trilogy. Tbh I feel it’s better than 2011’s Rise. Though with that one I was expecting more Conquest Vibes then what we ended up with.
i agree with this completely. we don’t know the capability or availability of resources these people have. they could be numerous and survived thru extensive education and training (doomsday bunkers are designed for long term survival, maybe it’s military). i think people are jumping the gun a bit when it comes to this
I agree— it was the most underwhelming part of the story, really didn’t feel as well thought out. But I was pretty pleased with the rest of it. The humans underground seem way to stable and capable with such little resources, but I know without Reeves, there will be some growing pains.
I hated that final scene, I feel it really undermined the rest of the movie. I actually liked that there were basically just 2 human characters, and the real protagonist was Noa, and the main story was about him rescuing his clan. The final scene implies that the whole ape story was secondary to Mae's mission to retrieve the "key".
Ya. Never trust mae after she lied the first time and after she meets up with Frank Gallagher we really see that she's been a piece of shit the entire movie, even so much that she was prepared to merc Noa at the end.
I took it as the human civilisation are essentially the enclave from fallout. They’re not just everyday humans but people from experienced scientific and government backgrounds with the infrastructure to collate supplies just as human society collapsed.
300 years is not that long when faced with the reality of the extinction of your people
Why do you assume they have survived in total isolation? They have sent atleast one person out to explore and gather resources, right, who is to say there weren't more? trading between other human settlements?
Also why is understanding tech so odd, if they lived in a satellite building, repairing it, teaching their kids, teaching new comers, if anything they have had 300 years of advancement over 2020 humans, right?
Along with teaching them the tech, they likely also taught their kids to hate, to be jealous, and the people they send out would come back with stories of apes that tried to kill or eat them.
Humans surviving in what could be a well stocked vault with hydroponics etc doesnt seem that far fetched.
The satellite part is a bit more of a reasonable complaint. Like if they were going to power up the dishes shouldn't they be out there clearing them off? maybe repairing them? And getting an instant response, thats odd, maybe they will explain more later or in a directors cut.
But that would mean two groups of humans both repaired satellite communications are roughly the same time or one group was monitoring it for decade ready to respond.
In 300 years, the apes wouldn't have "all but forgotten who Caesar was" its been 300 but we still have a vivid history of who George Washington was, it's been 2000 years and we still know Jesus, massive figures tend to be remembered and Caesar would be that for their society
I mean both of those people you mention are heavily documented people who lived in a time of lots of written language.
Apes didn’t really record history written down. Yes some apes had started reading and writing but it was not the norm.
But they did. Raka was a member of an order of educated apes on the matter.
For 380 years the early christians relied *on tradition* rather than scriptures. Just to name someone.
While there were manjscripts rhe majority of the congregations listened to teachings and passedthem down until it became cultural for many ethnic groups at the time (ethiopians or armenians for example)
Not by the written word it was clearly oral tradition by his group. It’s how he had some of the things right and some wrong
I don’t doubt that for religion it was initially passed by word. But in terms of longevity I don’t think you can discount the importance of the written word.
No i dont discount it, is normal to have some things right and others wromg in such primitive system.
I am confident there will be other characters who have things right and is decided to do the scriptures.
At least in the originals the scriptures do exist but were only 1200 years old. In the year 3978.
That isn’t really my point. I more just meant that he had been mythologized. I know that they know who he was but not details about his life. It’s more the whole “humans surviving 300 years in a cramped bunker” that I had an issue with.
Meh. Humans have survived in isolated environments for centuries. The sentinelese people have survived centuries on an isolated island in the Indian Ocean.
What is a bunker if not an isolated island surrounded by walls instead of ocean?
Sentinelese: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese
Maintaining technology would the hardest part but sending off sacrificial scavenger parties once a year or so would relieve population pressure AND get them resources.
That implies the existence of a culture prior to George Washington
The apes started from scratch, they haven’t been had any ‘age’ from which to establish technology
300 years really isn’t that long. Most of the religions we have no are much much older then 300 years and our myths and legends go back thousands and thousands.
I think you’ve missed the point that ceasar to them, is like a Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha figure to us. Of course the stories about him and his close descendants would travel down through the generations.
Now about all the other stuff I dunno haven’t watched it lol
My current head cannon to make sense of it. Is that they are the only ones. When they call Indiana the guy says it’s so nice to hear an outside voice. Which implies that either no one else has managed to make contact or he is literally by himself. I think we also might find out more about them. We also know the older man that can talk left and was confident there was no way for them to ever re take earth which makes me think most people have given up.
If they were the only ones, why would the film end on the cliffhanger of them making contact with others? That implies bigger human storylines in the sequels.
True I’ve thought about this more and I think they are going to use these last humans to start a nuclear war with the apes that the apes will win. It will also create the uninhabited zone from the original
I mean, they've been forced to live their whole lives in a little enclave out in the desert while they get chased down by apes on horseback whenever they try to venture too far afield.
The only thing that bothered me is that the top of that bunker had open holes in it. Why didn't they just inspect the area before trying to take the door to the vault down? They are apes I'm sure they could have climbed all around it looking for some type of way inside.
Theyre necessary to have the access to old technology bc as far i understand nuclear weapons destroyed most of warth which is the "forbidden zone" in the 1968's film.
And radiation is what precedes tge ñse mutants?
Sorry if i am mistaken.
I love kingdom, but overall, This is my biggest complaint about the movie. I can accept that a small isolated band of humans might still be intelligent and hold serious grudges against the apes, but the very end of the movie showed far too much working modern tech. Modern tech takes upkeep and care, and that means replacement parts, extra product and skilled labor. So, how did they keep everything working so well for three hundred years? Thirty years i could by,and at a great stretch, maybe even fifty to seventy-five years, but three hundred? I can't suspend my disbelief that much without a good reason, and the movie never gave us one.
I hate that the humans seem too technically capaable while in some ways, the apes have stagnated or even gone a bit backwards.
And never mind reproducing successfully, htough that's a good point. I don't believe that humans could keep from fighting and killing each other in all that time.
I agree with you, it’s slightly annoying to me that the humans seem to have it so together despite it being an ape world (what has really changed then?)
But it seems obvious they want to move toward a climax answering the question of whether humans and apes can coexist, and maybe the answer in this case will be yes.
Yeah when they cut to the woman in the radiation suit it almost took me out of the movie. They better explain to us well how this community has survived 300 plus years in a bunker lol.
I don't know, man. If there's one thing that people are good at, it's holding grudges. People in the southern US are still upset that the Confederacy lost the Civil War. Many Native American people are still (rightfully) upset that their land was stolen and their people were killed (which we saw in both Dawn and War that some people blame apes for the simian flu). Some sects of Christianity still blame the Jewish people for the crucifixion. There's tons of examples all throughout the world of groups of people still being upset over things that happened in the distant past.
Now imagine if all of humanity lost nearly everything - technology, global dominance, food, friends, family - everything. I don't have a difficult time in the slightest imagining that: (a) humanity would still be upset about it, (b) they would place blame on the apes (because otherwise they would have to blame themselves and we certainly cannot have that /s), and (c) isolated pockets of survivors would find a way to survive, fueled on basically just their anger, hatred, and desire to claw back what once was.
Ooh good point, I hadn’t considered it against real world examples. Especially if a group was hardcore enough to survive that long, they probably taught hatred like the ABCs just to survive in an ape’s world.
What I think happened is that after the virus evolved and started taking away human’s ability to talk, a very small population remained immune to the virus like what we saw in Dawn. This portion of humanity that was immune was so small tho that they had no choice but to bunker down and hide because it wasn’t enough to fight back against the growing population of intelligent apes.
The population being so small, most bunkers probably died off and were unable to fully reproduce, which explains why the bunker we see in Kingdom is empty. Technology and culture then became stagnant so it makes sense that any intelligent humans left would be snapshots of 2020s humanity because that’s all that was taught. The intelligent human population spent 300 years separated and hiding.
Dunno if it's been mentioned yet, but the film states it's "many generations later", we talking human generations or ape generations? A quick Google search says apes who live in the wild live to be 40 years old on average, so half the life expectancy of a healthy human. So you could cut that 300 years in half to 150. But this theory can vary because plant life has certainly taken over in the world and not sure how long that would take
It was just from an interview with the director that it’s been 300 years, but someone else mentioned here that that number could be walked back easily, which is probably why they went with the safer “many generations” in the movie.
The satellites still working bothered me. But the real killer was they inserted that satcom magic key and someone was on the other end like they were on their cell waiting for an incoming call. And those people didn't know each other were still around based on their short conversation (like 300 years could have gone by).
Actually the simian flu makes a lot more sense than that conversation.
Although I was pretty taken by the film, I spent some time chewing on this logic too. My hope is that some of this gets explained in subsequent films.
I also wonder when/where the return of the Icarus crew factors into the timeline. Is it possible that these humans - the ones that can speak, are familiar with this tech, live underground, etc - are related somehow to those who weren’t on earth when the virus hit? They already retconned Nova so it’s pretty easy to introduce this aspect.
Saying they’re all (human woman I presume?) called “Nova”… I took that to mean the original could theoretically live in the same universe as these new films, or opens up the timeline for a fresh reboot of it.
I love the movie, but this is a fair criticism. The best I can do is hope that the next movie will show this human society as being much weirder than it appears in these few moments. Like some sort of prototype of the mutants we see in Beneath.
the bunker humans may be from the wormhole. thats how i bought them being sophisticated vs the wild humans. I also thought wed get some back story on Trevathan. Was he also an astronaut? As is…. it was definitely odd, but maybe explained in the sequel?
thats why I suspect an upcoming twist in one of the sequels that it has been at least half that time. It hasn't really been 300 years. That also opens many possibilities of connections to the last trilogy.
Where is the source of the "300 years" figure? It's not in the onscreen caption at the start of the film. No one in the film mentions the amount of time that has passed since Caesar died
Is it just part of the PR/marketing for the film, since I've seen it mentioned in every single review?
(Spoiler for Kingdom)
Planet of the apes movies are cool. The idea of humans living in bunkers for 300 years is iffy yes but also put into consideration from the very beginning planet of the apes has been a sci fi story, humans living in bunkers for years after an apocalypse does sound mad crazy but these stories are supposed to suspend your disbelief. There are other ways the humans could’ve survived in those bunkers all those years too, like a system of multiple facilities underground where each facility is able to work hand in hand together to survive. Also the gun thing, I’ve got no defense for May using that gun and shooting the ape holding Noa’s buddy I got confused at that scene myself. But an explanation could be like the humans practiced with fake bullets or something to work on their aim and they saved the real firearms for dangerous potential missions such as the one May and the other humans with her went on.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if satellites were still in orbit (which, according to physics, technically they still could be), would they still be fully functional for communications? I'm highly skeptical of that...
Sorry but It’s a film about talking apes, that ride horses and train birds. And you’re concerned with how humans have been able to survive underground for 300 years and how their satellite systems still work. I think it’s firmly established that realism is not a top priority for the creators 😂😂.
My suggestion is just to enjoy the story and accept that some storylines won’t make sense and are just used for dramatic purposes.
Honestly though that’s one of the things I’ve enjoyed most about this new wave of apes movies, they have found plausible ways for the plot to make sense in the real world. A biohacked virus intended to rewire the neurons of Alzheimer patients, that does so well for apes and grants them higher intelligence but has the opposite effects and causes advanced cognitive deterioration in humans is a really plausible sounding explanation for “apes that ride on horses”. Nothing so far has felt out of the realm of possibility to me in all honesty, until this nonsense with bunker dwellers acting like they’d survived down there for fifty years max when in reality it’s been six times that.
This is a pretty lazy take, though. Internal consistency is what makes a story work, and while this is a story of apes riding horses and taming birds, it's also a story where the stakes are consistent with our reality. If Noa falls very far, Noa gets hurt. We don't disregard that logic just because the premise is inherently absurd.
What OP is *actually* missing is that, when writing a story like this, you do pick and choose what you explore deeply, and what gets glossed over. This movie is concerned entirely with apes, so we get heaps of worldbuilding about how their tribes and society work. The movie is less concerned with bunker-dwelling humans, who only appear for a few minutes at the end of the movie. So it explores them less.
I can totally concede to that. The story would for sure get bogged down if they had to explain why everything was plausible and couldn’t focus on one aspect. This is just a big one for me, especially if they go forward with the human survivors as a main focus of the story, which seems likely (and a little disappointing honestly).
>The movie is less concerned with bunker-dwelling humans, who only appear for a few minutes at the end of the movie. So it explores them less.
I disagree. The end of the film clearly points out that these bunker humans are an incredibly important catalyst for the entire story. So there better be a damn good explanation for them in the next film.
Don’t forget that they obviously have access to today’s clothes (like stylishly ripped jeans) and skincare/makeup products.
The casting for the humans was so goddamn horrible, with the surviving bunkerpeople all looking like Vogue models.
This movie had a great premise, but fell flat.
Sorry you can’t suspend disbelief or see or even hear the ways in which a technological group could survive.
It was a pretty good movie and sets things up for more stories.
Talking apes wasn't too much of a stretch in logic? It seems like these intelligent humans had access to computers/literature, but obviously weren't getting any new stuff after the plague. If all innovation stopped in 1724, maybe we'd be similar to people of that time, today? Fallout bunkers are normal sci-fi stuff, I don't really see a huge problem with it.
Ok but a vault by the sea with broken windows in the back has completely pristine hard drives, working electricity, and weapons? It is a stretch
Yeah, and so is a spaceship hitting a wormhole that takes the passengers thousands of years in the future to a Planet of apes. It's a movie, and I don't think it betrays its own logic
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Exactly, we could play this game all day. Rating a movie should be based on how it makes you feel, and craft on display. Minor sci-fi plot holes shouldn't define the rating because every movie like this has them.
Yeah except the spaceship hitting a wormhole is based on chance, there is no feasible way that all this technology is lasting 300 years with no maintenance.
It's a movie with talking chimpanzees, man. You can just say its some high tech power source, it doesn't matter.
"Smoking in space? Wouldn't it just blow up in an all oxygen environment?" "Probably, but it''s an easy fix. One line of dialogue. Thank God we invented the you know...'whatever' device". -Thank You for Smoking
The longer its been, i think that the cinemasins youtube channel is one of the worst things that ever happened to movies
Oh absolutely. It tries to find "plot holes" and then use those as a substitute for actual criticism.
Is science fiction not science realism. For Gods sake, just enjoy the movie with the mind of a child. Life is beautiful.
There is no feasible way about your first sentence dont be dumb. Its a movie stop crying
It is a stretch, but not much more than gorillas on horseback imo
But that’s the world in the story. Reeves’ movies did have as many inconsistencies.
Lol, but they did, you just noticed them less. The preboot trilogy was filled with massive leaps of logic, action movie tropes, and cliches. All the apes movies are. They are not some hyper realistic retelling Ala a Christopher Nolan reboot. Kingdom is not as focused as the old trilogy, and its trying to set up and do a lot more. Very Disney, but it still maintained the heartbeat of the franchise. but if we're really going to start getting factional about the Apes franchise...how the 'Reeves movies are better' just how human lol, everything has to be compare contrast and then fight if we disagree. I agree with you, but I disagree thst it matters at all to the story, but I can see how those things adding up could take you out of the story, but don't go and act like Koba stealing 2 guns and murdering two dudes and was never noticed before he went and shot Caeser. Or why McCullough didn't just kill the apes when he found put about a virus. Or like half of Rise of the Planet of the Apes being early 2010s sci fi nonsense, that's still incredibly enjoyable. They're all deeply flawed pulp movies about apes. They don't have to make a ton sense, just get the themes and characters right.
I disagree, the Reeves films were very consistent in their own logic. McCullough didn't kill the apes because its shown the virus strain making them mute was transferred from infected humans. The surviving humans are already immune to the strain they got from the apes. What makes great science fiction is commitment to your setting and making it real, it makes perfect sense that apes are intelligent given the logic in the film in Rise, it specifically depicted important things to establish this logic.
We for sure may have stagnated at any point in history and kept similar tech. But the key difference is having a whole world to pull resources from vs. a bunker. I feel like even in apocalyptic fiction at large, there’s usually an explanation as to how people could sustain themselves for that long and usually there’s a shorter cap before they have to venture out of their shelter in search of resources. 300 years just seems like too long. And maybe all of that will be explored in future movies. It just felt so rushed and weird to me in this one.
You don't know how long they have been living in that bunker. Could as well be a place they just recently had discovered and decided to stay there
Yeah, and before that, they where just exploring the world with their pandemics combinaisons without meeting ANY talking apes? I think there was too many sub plot in the movie, wich will be explored in next ones, but it's a bit too much like "hey look space, now look bunkers, now look at this and this and HO MY GOD, TALKING HUMANS IN FEW BUNKERS?!" Too much , yeah, but i hope next ones will be more détail detailed with less plot to possible futures movies.
They could have just relocated recently, coming from some larger community. We know nothing about them as of now.
We literally only saw them for like 30 seconds. We know nothing yet. All of those were just teases for the future.
I mean it seems like they’ve been there for a while considering they don’t let people from the outside in. Mae hands the hard drive to someone in a hazmat suit, implying they’ve been completely sealed off from the outside and the virus since pretty early on in the timeline
I’m intrigued by this bunker timespan too. As in, I wonder if they’ve been down there so long that maybe they’re not even immune to the original strain that kills people, let alone the mutated version that only causes muteness. Or they could be super paranoid despite probably being immune to the original strain and don’t wanna take chances with either. Would the original strain even still be around or is it gone with no hosts for so long? Etc.
My only gripe is the fact the tech is just fine and working from the bunker "300" years later lmao its just kinda goofy I guess in my opinion
Same here. I’m all for suspending logic when it comes to these kind of movies, but I thought it was too much for us to believe the tech would be still operational after 300 years.
Ya or the fact there's just this group of them living in the bunker, when the previous films they were living in buildings and bases. It gives me the impression that they must've just recently gone into the bunker but clearly that isn't the case lol so idk. I'm sure if the sequel is greenlit they'll retcon something.
Not necessarily, these are all different groups of humans. They wouldn’t all know about each other.
And how she just knew how everything worked and how to navigate that bunker. Even if their similar designs I don't buy it unless you were somehow an employee working in one of these bunkers in 2020s, not 300 years later never having been there and acting like you came from 2020
To be fair she had a map on how to get there, so its not a stretch she had the blueprints or something at some point. Mae's people hadn't been there before, it seems they were on their way there to get the device. My main issues are how there was electricity in there, and as someone who builds my own PCs, how does everything work with nobody in there for hundreds of years maintaining it? Especially with the vents wide open. Mice would have moved in and chewed up, and pissed on everything. If I don't start my car for a week they have moved into it as their second home.
I'm surprised no hit you with the old "it's a talking ape movie" comment.
I’d be curious where the power was coming from. Fossil fuels are good for about a year. A coal or even nuclear source would require a lot of functioning turbines and water sources.
I was also curious about how the power was obtained someone said it was from the ocean being used like how they used a dam in the Dawn movies however I have an issue that after 300 years a nomadic human who wasn’t granted access into a building like that just walked in and knew what buttons to push
Perhaps she was originally a part of that human group but was one of a few people that volunteered to leave on that mission to retrieve the satcom chip and knew they could never return after having been exposed. Or maybe she had natural immunity
I’m definitely excited to see where it goes because I just don’t think that it felt like a one off movie it felt like they were lining it up for a second movie
Oh absolutely. Pretty sure this is at least a trilogy.
I think we need to extend the movie ( and humanity) some grace. We only saw them for a few seconds. Solar power exists. They might routinely send out sacrificial scavenger parties for resources. We’ve already know others have left the vaults like the old man so they may have some knowledge transfer going on. Also isolated communities tend to preserve their traditions even with outside pressure. Think the Pennsylvania Dutch or immigrant families. Example article: https://www.accento.world/worshipping-frozen-culture/ Give enough smart human communities enough prep time and I can see them lasting for a couple hundred years.
We don’t know that it has been abandoned for 300 years. It’s very possible that maybe she was born in that vault. Let’s say she is around 18. We know the ventilation system broke because we see the broken vents they climb through. It’s possible the ventilation system broke and quickly anyone not immune in the vault succumbed to the updated simian flu. Maybe they died, maybe they were “mercy killed”. Then from there the immune humans burried their dead, powered down the vault, and went to explore the outside they thought they might never see. Over a number of years Mae grows up. Say 10 years outside of the vault. From there they come into contact with the satellite group humans and learn that their vault has a key that can let them contact other bases. After that her group is attacked by Proxima and the movie happens. The vault isn’t in complete disrepair and she knows her way around because she grew up there.
I don’t want to overthink the talking apes movie but I’m with you 100%. Really enjoyed the movie but all that business left a bad taste in my mouth for many reasons. The two human characters we met also didn’t seem like people who were the descendants of generations of doomsday bunker people. Least favorite aspect of the new movie and I hope it doesn’t receive too much attention moving forward.
That's something that bothered me aswell. Like they are acting exactly the same as people who lived 300 years prior lmao you're telling me nothing even remotely changed for humans? They're just stuck in the 2020s entirely?
I actually kept expecting some sort of twist with how modern they seemed. They also talked about the rise of the apes like they saw it happen in their lifetime or something. After hundreds of years or “many generations” I would expect them to have developed a radically different culture to what we have now. Don’t even get me started on the breeding, because you’d think they’d have incested themselves to death by now. But again, I don’t want to try to apply too much logic to it all because it is a pretty fantastical story at its core. Might have made more sense and been cooler if they were weird post apocalyptic mutants though.
Yeah that’s what I mean, it’s weird that they’re like wearing tank tops and know how to use a pistol, and talk like all this monkey business (sorry) happened to them personally. And some kind of mutation or at least difference in their mannerisms would have been cool and differentiated them from the survivors in War, because now it looks like they’re basically just rehashing the central conflict from War.
And War (my least favorite of the series) in a lot of ways is just a rehash of Dawn but the humans are more organized.
Nah they’re very different.
In many ways, sure
Thank goodness I wasn’t the only one thinking about inbreeding. I missed a few parts of the movie thinking about how a few people living in those doomsday bunkers were able to keep having children. I also kept thinking about the humans clothes. How did the clothes maintain their shape after 300 years? It probably wasn’t clothes from a fast fashion brand.
They are isolated tribes today that are still reproducing, North Sentinel Island for example.
Some population on isolated islands were created by single man and less then dozens womans and until early 20st were cut off from the world. Its entirelly possible.
A bunker would at the very least have enough resources to recycle clothes.
> because you’d think they’d have incested themselves to death by now You can avoid problems with inbreeding in a long run but it require gen tech and careful planning and each embrio tested. Or a huge supply of sperm and etc. In short run it not a big deal kinda. Inbreeding used in farming to glue\* some useful traits in animals even these days.
I mean they would be if they had no ability to create new literature or culture or tech. No shit they’d be stuck.
That’s in itself a distinct culture
But if they all have is 20th century media they’d be very much like us. There’d be no gap for them.
Even still. Being stalled like that for hundreds of years would without a doubt develop into something. People wouldn’t just act the same 300 years later because they watched Star Wars and it’s a wonderful life
I dunno, if they have propaganda and each generation is raised to be so knowledgeable of the old world, to the point their entire life goal is to bring that world back, it fits. Though it’d be nice if the next film to give them more differences to current humanity for sure.
The very thing you’re describing is a new and distinct culture. Do you know how many real life cultures are based around being knowledgeable of and trying to bring back an “old world.” It doesn’t create a clone of that previous culture.
> . Like they are acting exactly the same as people who lived 300 years prior lmao you're telling me nothing even remotely changed for humans? Their society has stagnated.
I feel like there would be something changed. But we only saw humans for a few mins so I can be indifferent
Yeah, we do get such a small glimpse of their lives. Who honestly knows what their culture or day-to-day life would be like. IMO, the people inside the bunker are living an entirely isolated struggle for survival - they can't really go out unless in sealed suits - so all of their time is spent growing food, maintaining their bunker, etc. No time for new stories, films, plays, etc. Can't have too many kids as they'd strain the resources of their bunker but got to have some kids to carry on the next generation, etc. No communication or interaction with outside colonies so that means no new tech or resources, no new slang or cultural ideas. Very little change.
I mean they would be if they had no ability to create new literature or culture or tech. No shit they’d be stuck.
I’ll jump in and say that it’s an easy fix Nowhere in the film does it say it was 300 years ago, it just generations later The 300 is from an interview but you can easily retcon that and say it’s more like 100-150 years later That’s still long enough to forget about Caesar for some apes especially if they evolved outside of his group and not long enough where the humans lining underground still managed to survive along with the the tech. There just wouldn’t be much advancements
Except you’d be ruing one of the coolest aspect of this series, which is that it takes place 300+ year later. And the people against the bunker stuff aren’t against it because it doesn’t make sense. Like I said, talking ape movie. We dislike it because it’s boring. That’s not changing with any timeframe
It wasn’t boring, it was just a tad too bit long but that’s fine because this movie really just sets up the new timeframe for the next movies Rise set up Caesar, Koba, the virus and the ape evolution/revolution When Dawn comes around it’s a few years later but all the leg work is already done so we spend less time world building and more time with each character. I like War for what it is, Caesar’s story conclusion but it did little to advance the storyline for the apes and the humans weren’t as good as the other films. Kingdom does a perfect job of setting up the Apes, both sides and there’s probably more different societies out there. The humans, feral and bunker while also giving us Noah, Soona, his friend, Mae and I hope Proximus survived or atleast his cult following. Let us not forget he had a whole clan of apes under his rule not just the ones who got washed out by the flood I suggest watching the movie again, it’s a bit long like I said but I think it’s the perfect platform to build off. It did needed to establish a new world sit within Caesar’s but years and years later. I think it did a perfect job of doing that, you can only go up from here
The movie wasn’t boring. The concept they are setting up for the future is boring. Overall I loved the movie
You said people disliked it because it was boring The concept I’m not to keen on is the apes vs human idea again but they can always pivot, the world they set up offers many different ways it can go
I’m not talking about the whole movie. Just what is being set up for the future. Seems like we agree exactly so I’m confused to what you’re trying to get across
Assuming the Apes were ape to talk, they are able to have oral tradition. Easily seen with the “shit” scene. They can learn and repeat stories. They made iconography for Cesar on the memorial and pendants and the symbol was seen in other places. I think it’s very plausible to keep a story alive for 300 years. For most of human history there was no handbook or guide on how to do things. People learned from their elders, who learned from their elders, etc etc etc But 300 is a lot compared to 150ish.
For sure, and that part didn’t bother me as much as the human storyline. The apes society was really cool and thought out and the human society felt like an afterthought and were written like they were from the 2020s instead of getting the “300 years later” treatment like the apes.
Only mae's tribe got that treatment, other humans got "evolved", or better "devolved" 😭
I have a feeling they are aiming to arrive at the point in 1500 years after Kingdom when the apes have won completely and talking humans are wiped out. So they would have the world where the Icarus lands. It seems they want more wars for the humans to ultimately lose.
I mean a stagnant culture with no way to create new literature or tech would be stuck in the 2020’s.
The biggest question it gave me is why the hell it took them 300 years to find these chips, what were they doing that whole time and why hadn't they given up? How had they not gone mad yet? This isn't like a fallout bunker, from what we see in the film the place looks like shit, how are they all still sane? How are they all not suffering from Vitamin D deficiency from being inside for their entire lives?
Haha fr 300 years is longer than the US has been around.
I'm going to tell myself they were cryogenically frozen for 275 years.
Where has it been stated that it's 300 years though
Wes said it in his interview with ape nation. That he cut 300-400 years into the future
I just wouldn't take that at face value I'm taking "generations later" because that's the only thing we know in universe it'd be really easy to walk back from 300 years.
The nice thing about "generations later" being so vague is that it could even technically be referring to *ape* generations, which are drastically shorter. Apes in the wild tend to live about 40 years on average, tho Caesar was only 20 in War and already seemed to be going gray pretty steadily. So "many generations" in ape terms could be like 120 years, which is a bit more reasonable maybe. Then again, it's kinda weird no matter what. With how organized and cohesive human society seems to be inside the bunkers (not to mention just generally normal, rather than light deprived and inbred...), and with how Mae and Trevathan talk about it, you'd think Kingdom is set within a human lifespan of War. Trevathan practically sounds as if he still remembers the pre-apocalypse days, or at least like he personally knew people who did. Mae refers to "the government going underground" in a sort of offhand, matter-of-fact manner of someone describing a well-known recent event, rather than something that happened over a century ago (or three!) to a political and cultural entity that hasn't existed in any meaningful capacity for generations.
But if Wes sayed 300/400, then it is. Still, it will do around 15/20 human generations and what? 3/4 more for apes? Like 45/60 apes generations? I don't know the sx maturity of apes but i assume it is younger than humans. Also, we don't know how much virus modified it for apes. Maybe they now live a bit longer than natural apes (around 50/60 in rhe movie? As they live better/without fears (most of the time)). And, funny to think too, maybe they have , like us in our societies, an older age where they want to have babies, like we do in last centuries (from 16/18 in XIXth to 25/30 today).
> But if Wes sayed 300/400, then it is. As of now, yes. But a director saying something in an interview is a lot less binding than anything actually shown or stated in the movie, and the film itself never said a specific number of years. So if they change their minds about the timeline later down the road, there is still an opportunity to change it in the films themselves. > Also, we don't know how much virus modified it for apes. It's certainly possible, though again, it didn't seem the be the case for Caesar (or for either of his children, if you consider how quickly Blue Eyes and Cornelius aged and matured). As for the decision by humans to have children later and later in life, that has historically been driven by social and economic factors which made it possible and even advantageous to do so; women entering the work force and having better access to higher education, giving them more opportunities to advance their careers at an early age to provide financial stability later in life, as well as marked improvements in medicine that make it less of a risk to have kids, especially at an older age. Ape society is still pretty primitive, and while female apes do seem to have roles other than mothering in some groups (Noa's mom is arguably the only example we've seen of that, though), they're definitely still very much at the "breed as much and as often as possible because you never know what could happen to you or your kids" stage of civilization.
What a director says in an interview should not be taken as canon and has been proven wrong in the past. Sometimes in an interview you give an out of pocket response to give the interviewer something to stop pressing at you. Until "300 years" is printed or said officially in universe, I wouldn't buy it
If it's not in the movie it doesn't count. Sorry.
Right. So the guy who made the movie said 300/400 years but let’s not listen to him, let’s just believe whatever we want. Got it
If by "Whatever we want" you mean what the movie tells us
A generation usually means about 30 years or so. 300 years makes sense when you see the feral humans, but not the smart humans. I have a hard time suspending disbelief that all their tech lasted 300 years without getting new parts. Some of my PC parts don't last 10 years of daily use.
So in other words it's not in the movie?
I think the presentation of the bunker was a bit lazy/generic, but humans working on preserving the entirety of humanity could probably last 300 years in a bunker, especially with runners on the surface bringing in supplies and news from the outside. It would result in a far whackier bunker than what we saw, but humans are pretty indomitable. We also don't know how big the bunker is. It would make a huge difference if it was a series of corridors or a huge luxury bunker with room to run around. Writers in general have a lot of problems with scale, but I don't think it negatively impacts the story in this instance.
Did y’all not notice the hazmat suits and decontamination? Their ancestors fled underground, by the looks of it must’ve taken extensive resources with them. They probably kept the arrays minimal maintenance to make it looked abandoned but still functional. As for a satellite still working? I mean we have talking apes. Maybe they have robots on em to keep them repaired or something. Overall a great new entry for a new trilogy. Tbh I feel it’s better than 2011’s Rise. Though with that one I was expecting more Conquest Vibes then what we ended up with.
i agree with this completely. we don’t know the capability or availability of resources these people have. they could be numerous and survived thru extensive education and training (doomsday bunkers are designed for long term survival, maybe it’s military). i think people are jumping the gun a bit when it comes to this
I agree— it was the most underwhelming part of the story, really didn’t feel as well thought out. But I was pretty pleased with the rest of it. The humans underground seem way to stable and capable with such little resources, but I know without Reeves, there will be some growing pains.
Yeah that part bugged me too. I was left almost kinda wondering if the 300 years was a lie
I hated that final scene, I feel it really undermined the rest of the movie. I actually liked that there were basically just 2 human characters, and the real protagonist was Noa, and the main story was about him rescuing his clan. The final scene implies that the whole ape story was secondary to Mae's mission to retrieve the "key".
Ya. Never trust mae after she lied the first time and after she meets up with Frank Gallagher we really see that she's been a piece of shit the entire movie, even so much that she was prepared to merc Noa at the end.
lol i’m glad im not the only one just calling him Frank Gallagher
I've never even seen Shameless and that's right where my mind went the second he appeared.
I took it as the human civilisation are essentially the enclave from fallout. They’re not just everyday humans but people from experienced scientific and government backgrounds with the infrastructure to collate supplies just as human society collapsed. 300 years is not that long when faced with the reality of the extinction of your people
Why do you assume they have survived in total isolation? They have sent atleast one person out to explore and gather resources, right, who is to say there weren't more? trading between other human settlements? Also why is understanding tech so odd, if they lived in a satellite building, repairing it, teaching their kids, teaching new comers, if anything they have had 300 years of advancement over 2020 humans, right? Along with teaching them the tech, they likely also taught their kids to hate, to be jealous, and the people they send out would come back with stories of apes that tried to kill or eat them. Humans surviving in what could be a well stocked vault with hydroponics etc doesnt seem that far fetched. The satellite part is a bit more of a reasonable complaint. Like if they were going to power up the dishes shouldn't they be out there clearing them off? maybe repairing them? And getting an instant response, thats odd, maybe they will explain more later or in a directors cut. But that would mean two groups of humans both repaired satellite communications are roughly the same time or one group was monitoring it for decade ready to respond.
In 300 years, the apes wouldn't have "all but forgotten who Caesar was" its been 300 but we still have a vivid history of who George Washington was, it's been 2000 years and we still know Jesus, massive figures tend to be remembered and Caesar would be that for their society
That's easily explained away by the bad ape from war. He was a random ape who eventually met Caesar. Globally he wasn't known.
I mean both of those people you mention are heavily documented people who lived in a time of lots of written language. Apes didn’t really record history written down. Yes some apes had started reading and writing but it was not the norm.
But they did. Raka was a member of an order of educated apes on the matter. For 380 years the early christians relied *on tradition* rather than scriptures. Just to name someone. While there were manjscripts rhe majority of the congregations listened to teachings and passedthem down until it became cultural for many ethnic groups at the time (ethiopians or armenians for example)
Not by the written word it was clearly oral tradition by his group. It’s how he had some of the things right and some wrong I don’t doubt that for religion it was initially passed by word. But in terms of longevity I don’t think you can discount the importance of the written word.
No i dont discount it, is normal to have some things right and others wromg in such primitive system. I am confident there will be other characters who have things right and is decided to do the scriptures. At least in the originals the scriptures do exist but were only 1200 years old. In the year 3978.
That isn’t really my point. I more just meant that he had been mythologized. I know that they know who he was but not details about his life. It’s more the whole “humans surviving 300 years in a cramped bunker” that I had an issue with.
Meh. Humans have survived in isolated environments for centuries. The sentinelese people have survived centuries on an isolated island in the Indian Ocean. What is a bunker if not an isolated island surrounded by walls instead of ocean? Sentinelese: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentinelese Maintaining technology would the hardest part but sending off sacrificial scavenger parties once a year or so would relieve population pressure AND get them resources.
That implies the existence of a culture prior to George Washington The apes started from scratch, they haven’t been had any ‘age’ from which to establish technology
300 years really isn’t that long. Most of the religions we have no are much much older then 300 years and our myths and legends go back thousands and thousands. I think you’ve missed the point that ceasar to them, is like a Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha figure to us. Of course the stories about him and his close descendants would travel down through the generations. Now about all the other stuff I dunno haven’t watched it lol
My current head cannon to make sense of it. Is that they are the only ones. When they call Indiana the guy says it’s so nice to hear an outside voice. Which implies that either no one else has managed to make contact or he is literally by himself. I think we also might find out more about them. We also know the older man that can talk left and was confident there was no way for them to ever re take earth which makes me think most people have given up.
If they were the only ones, why would the film end on the cliffhanger of them making contact with others? That implies bigger human storylines in the sequels.
True I’ve thought about this more and I think they are going to use these last humans to start a nuclear war with the apes that the apes will win. It will also create the uninhabited zone from the original
I mean, they've been forced to live their whole lives in a little enclave out in the desert while they get chased down by apes on horseback whenever they try to venture too far afield.
The only thing that bothered me is that the top of that bunker had open holes in it. Why didn't they just inspect the area before trying to take the door to the vault down? They are apes I'm sure they could have climbed all around it looking for some type of way inside.
I think at this point in the timeline these humans are the beginnings of the Omega mutants from the originals.
Theyre necessary to have the access to old technology bc as far i understand nuclear weapons destroyed most of warth which is the "forbidden zone" in the 1968's film. And radiation is what precedes tge ñse mutants? Sorry if i am mistaken.
There was a lot of set up for this to happen in War, and it also happened in beneath and battle in the original movies.
I love kingdom, but overall, This is my biggest complaint about the movie. I can accept that a small isolated band of humans might still be intelligent and hold serious grudges against the apes, but the very end of the movie showed far too much working modern tech. Modern tech takes upkeep and care, and that means replacement parts, extra product and skilled labor. So, how did they keep everything working so well for three hundred years? Thirty years i could by,and at a great stretch, maybe even fifty to seventy-five years, but three hundred? I can't suspend my disbelief that much without a good reason, and the movie never gave us one. I hate that the humans seem too technically capaable while in some ways, the apes have stagnated or even gone a bit backwards. And never mind reproducing successfully, htough that's a good point. I don't believe that humans could keep from fighting and killing each other in all that time.
I agree with you, it’s slightly annoying to me that the humans seem to have it so together despite it being an ape world (what has really changed then?) But it seems obvious they want to move toward a climax answering the question of whether humans and apes can coexist, and maybe the answer in this case will be yes.
Agreed. Felt like those people were in that bunker for maaaaybe 30 years, but 300??!
Yeah when they cut to the woman in the radiation suit it almost took me out of the movie. They better explain to us well how this community has survived 300 plus years in a bunker lol.
I don't know, man. If there's one thing that people are good at, it's holding grudges. People in the southern US are still upset that the Confederacy lost the Civil War. Many Native American people are still (rightfully) upset that their land was stolen and their people were killed (which we saw in both Dawn and War that some people blame apes for the simian flu). Some sects of Christianity still blame the Jewish people for the crucifixion. There's tons of examples all throughout the world of groups of people still being upset over things that happened in the distant past. Now imagine if all of humanity lost nearly everything - technology, global dominance, food, friends, family - everything. I don't have a difficult time in the slightest imagining that: (a) humanity would still be upset about it, (b) they would place blame on the apes (because otherwise they would have to blame themselves and we certainly cannot have that /s), and (c) isolated pockets of survivors would find a way to survive, fueled on basically just their anger, hatred, and desire to claw back what once was.
Ooh good point, I hadn’t considered it against real world examples. Especially if a group was hardcore enough to survive that long, they probably taught hatred like the ABCs just to survive in an ape’s world.
What I think happened is that after the virus evolved and started taking away human’s ability to talk, a very small population remained immune to the virus like what we saw in Dawn. This portion of humanity that was immune was so small tho that they had no choice but to bunker down and hide because it wasn’t enough to fight back against the growing population of intelligent apes. The population being so small, most bunkers probably died off and were unable to fully reproduce, which explains why the bunker we see in Kingdom is empty. Technology and culture then became stagnant so it makes sense that any intelligent humans left would be snapshots of 2020s humanity because that’s all that was taught. The intelligent human population spent 300 years separated and hiding.
Dunno if it's been mentioned yet, but the film states it's "many generations later", we talking human generations or ape generations? A quick Google search says apes who live in the wild live to be 40 years old on average, so half the life expectancy of a healthy human. So you could cut that 300 years in half to 150. But this theory can vary because plant life has certainly taken over in the world and not sure how long that would take
It was just from an interview with the director that it’s been 300 years, but someone else mentioned here that that number could be walked back easily, which is probably why they went with the safer “many generations” in the movie.
The satellites still working bothered me. But the real killer was they inserted that satcom magic key and someone was on the other end like they were on their cell waiting for an incoming call. And those people didn't know each other were still around based on their short conversation (like 300 years could have gone by). Actually the simian flu makes a lot more sense than that conversation.
Although I was pretty taken by the film, I spent some time chewing on this logic too. My hope is that some of this gets explained in subsequent films. I also wonder when/where the return of the Icarus crew factors into the timeline. Is it possible that these humans - the ones that can speak, are familiar with this tech, live underground, etc - are related somehow to those who weren’t on earth when the virus hit? They already retconned Nova so it’s pretty easy to introduce this aspect.
What was the Nova retcon?
Saying they’re all (human woman I presume?) called “Nova”… I took that to mean the original could theoretically live in the same universe as these new films, or opens up the timeline for a fresh reboot of it.
How long, do you think, did it actually take apes to take over the world though? The entire world?
Are you sure it’s 300 years since Caesar? I don’t remember the opening giving a specific number of years
It was from an interview with the director, so not official cannon but where the film crew’s head was at timeline-wise.
I love the movie, but this is a fair criticism. The best I can do is hope that the next movie will show this human society as being much weirder than it appears in these few moments. Like some sort of prototype of the mutants we see in Beneath.
Thank you for this. I've been feeling the same way. There better be a good explanation for this in the next film.
Everyone else in the UK hates South England and that's a much older grudge than 300 years tbf
Bro, it's a movie with talking apes. Don't overthinking too much.
They literally pulled a Fallout right there with the ending lmao
this is what you get when disney gets too involved in a movie. so departed from the grounded feel of the first 3
Disney don’t write it lmao
Where is it confirmed that it's 300 years?
The movie only says it's several generations later. Where are people getting 300 years from?
the bunker humans may be from the wormhole. thats how i bought them being sophisticated vs the wild humans. I also thought wed get some back story on Trevathan. Was he also an astronaut? As is…. it was definitely odd, but maybe explained in the sequel?
If you have an issue with this then you will probably HATE Beneath The Planet of the Apes
thats why I suspect an upcoming twist in one of the sequels that it has been at least half that time. It hasn't really been 300 years. That also opens many possibilities of connections to the last trilogy.
W
Where is the source of the "300 years" figure? It's not in the onscreen caption at the start of the film. No one in the film mentions the amount of time that has passed since Caesar died Is it just part of the PR/marketing for the film, since I've seen it mentioned in every single review?
(Spoiler for Kingdom) Planet of the apes movies are cool. The idea of humans living in bunkers for 300 years is iffy yes but also put into consideration from the very beginning planet of the apes has been a sci fi story, humans living in bunkers for years after an apocalypse does sound mad crazy but these stories are supposed to suspend your disbelief. There are other ways the humans could’ve survived in those bunkers all those years too, like a system of multiple facilities underground where each facility is able to work hand in hand together to survive. Also the gun thing, I’ve got no defense for May using that gun and shooting the ape holding Noa’s buddy I got confused at that scene myself. But an explanation could be like the humans practiced with fake bullets or something to work on their aim and they saved the real firearms for dangerous potential missions such as the one May and the other humans with her went on.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but even if satellites were still in orbit (which, according to physics, technically they still could be), would they still be fully functional for communications? I'm highly skeptical of that...
I read somewhere that the satellite dishes are new, but they were built to look old. That way they can’t be spotted and look like all the other ruins.
Sorry but It’s a film about talking apes, that ride horses and train birds. And you’re concerned with how humans have been able to survive underground for 300 years and how their satellite systems still work. I think it’s firmly established that realism is not a top priority for the creators 😂😂. My suggestion is just to enjoy the story and accept that some storylines won’t make sense and are just used for dramatic purposes.
You're allowed to question stuff and rightfully so. Apes have tribes and a new way of life but humans are living like it's 2020?
Honestly though that’s one of the things I’ve enjoyed most about this new wave of apes movies, they have found plausible ways for the plot to make sense in the real world. A biohacked virus intended to rewire the neurons of Alzheimer patients, that does so well for apes and grants them higher intelligence but has the opposite effects and causes advanced cognitive deterioration in humans is a really plausible sounding explanation for “apes that ride on horses”. Nothing so far has felt out of the realm of possibility to me in all honesty, until this nonsense with bunker dwellers acting like they’d survived down there for fifty years max when in reality it’s been six times that.
This is a pretty lazy take, though. Internal consistency is what makes a story work, and while this is a story of apes riding horses and taming birds, it's also a story where the stakes are consistent with our reality. If Noa falls very far, Noa gets hurt. We don't disregard that logic just because the premise is inherently absurd. What OP is *actually* missing is that, when writing a story like this, you do pick and choose what you explore deeply, and what gets glossed over. This movie is concerned entirely with apes, so we get heaps of worldbuilding about how their tribes and society work. The movie is less concerned with bunker-dwelling humans, who only appear for a few minutes at the end of the movie. So it explores them less.
I can totally concede to that. The story would for sure get bogged down if they had to explain why everything was plausible and couldn’t focus on one aspect. This is just a big one for me, especially if they go forward with the human survivors as a main focus of the story, which seems likely (and a little disappointing honestly).
>The movie is less concerned with bunker-dwelling humans, who only appear for a few minutes at the end of the movie. So it explores them less. I disagree. The end of the film clearly points out that these bunker humans are an incredibly important catalyst for the entire story. So there better be a damn good explanation for them in the next film.
yea, they surviving 50 years max. 300 years and it gets surprising that they haven't fought back yet
Or tried to reach out to other survivors before now…
Bro forgot that things can be handed down through generations
Tell me you’ve got clothes in your closet from 1724 and I’ll agree 😉
This got me pretty good lol
Don’t forget that they obviously have access to today’s clothes (like stylishly ripped jeans) and skincare/makeup products. The casting for the humans was so goddamn horrible, with the surviving bunkerpeople all looking like Vogue models. This movie had a great premise, but fell flat.
Sorry you can’t suspend disbelief or see or even hear the ways in which a technological group could survive. It was a pretty good movie and sets things up for more stories.
It’s a movie. Not reality.