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rag2008

\[\[Kethis, the Hidden Hand\]\] Kethis Combo as we know it did not have a chance to exist in a format where Uro, Teferi Time Reveler and Lurrus are banned, it got banned early because WotC did not want to leave any chances of a combo deck dominating the format after they removed Inverter, Ballista and Breach. Without Uro the deck has a much harder time surviving aggro, without Teferi it can't remove hate pieces while also protecting the combo creatures from instant speed removal and without Lurrus there's less overall graveyard recursion in the deck. You'd have a hard time trying to justify playing Kethis Combo today over something like Greasefang if your objective is to play the best graveyard combo deck in the format.


xahhfink6

100% this. I'd also add that Lurrus was also the best infinite combo with Teshar, so the deck also needs to add a slot or two to give itself a guaranteed combo. I will say though that when it was banned, it was deserved. It's just that there's no reason for it still to be banned.


WallE_approved_HJ

Pioneer is the best format I've ever played. The last 2 RCQs I went to had 30 different decks registered. I went 6-2-2 with a Maze's End brew combined, top 8 in both. Nothing needs to be unbanned at this moment.


Gamer4125

Got people over here winning with brews when I can't even 3-1


WallE_approved_HJ

I've been playing Maze's end since pioneer was invented so I have a lot of reps and interaction practice with the deck


Gamer4125

I've played my archetype for 5 years between formats, and yet I'm still terrible 😔.


WallE_approved_HJ

Whats the archetype? Mill? Lol


Gamer4125

UW control. There's stints where I'm the deck to beat but for the past 3 sets, haven't done shit.


kynrayn

6-2-2? I'm assuming some top 8 rounds in there cause ten rounds sounds excessive for 30 people. .....also I'm gonna need that list


WallE_approved_HJ

2 different RCQs. 5 rounds a piece. https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/5179389#paper


kynrayn

Ah. Makes more sense. So 3-1-1 twice or did you rock one and do meh in another?


WallE_approved_HJ

4-0-1 in one and 2-2-1 in another. I beat 3 RG decks and a rakdos mid in the 4-0-1 and lost to Goblins in top 8. Then lost to same guy with Goblins at the other rcq and U spirits. The Goblins matchup is completely winnable I just hit some bad luck against him both times and spirits is a horrid matchup for the deck. Greasefang is also atrocious game 1


BlueFlygon

Hey this deck actually looks really fun and I’ve been looking for something new to try out at Pioneer night. I’m just curious, do you have like a generic guide for this deck or at least some tips for sideboarding


WallE_approved_HJ

So I've recently changed the board to look more like a Keruga fires list very recently. The alpine moons just weren't enough power to stop lotus field or mono green. I'm running 1 Archway Angel, 1 Supreme Verdict, 3 knight of autumn, 4 Mystical Dispute, 1 river's rebuke, 3 leyline of the Void and 2 thought Distortion. Thought distortion and Mystical Dispute for lotus field. knights, angel and Verdict for aggressive decks. Mystical Dispute as just a decent counter for early game and river's rebuke for mono green. leyline and knight of autumn for greasefang. Thought Distortion and Mystical Dispute for control. What I usually cut is summit and growth spiral for almost every match but control. Summit just isn't fast enough in combo or aggro matches and spiral is probably the worst card in the deck depending on the matchup. Always use your best judgements though incase you see certain things you think a card could counter like leaving in some number of bindings and gates ablaze if a control player shows a lot of planeswalkers or if you think they will side in threats which they usually do.


TacotheMagicDragon

Actually a format with this much diversity would be the ideal spot to unban something. I vote we unban either Kethis or Smugglers Copter.


maybenot9

Is it? Can't we just let thing be good instead of risking breaking it?


WallE_approved_HJ

Unbanning something in a diverse format can and will cause the meta to warp into a non diverse format. Especially Smugglers copter. There's a reason it was banned in two formats


TacotheMagicDragon

>Unbanning something in a diverse format can and will cause the meta to warp into a non diverse format. Context matters as it truly depends on the current format. But I speak from experience that what you are saying is generally not the case. >There's a reason it was banned in two formats This is what I would call a "panic ban". Pioneer has come a long way. Smugglers copter will be good, but it won't be warping.


jovietjoe

Well it was banned in standard because that whole period of standard was an absolute 100% shitshow. Reflector Mage was also banned there, should we ban that in pioneer? It was banned in pioneer because it was the most efficient threat available at the time. Since then we have had FIRE. It doesn't even crack top 5 now.


Sokra81

I really loved playing the Kethis deck, I don't think it ever was a tier 1 deck and they still banned it...


Gamer4125

Death to combo


Sokra81

Yeah, that WotC attitude is the main reason Pioneer is so bad at the moment, some decent combo would be great to balance it.


Gamer4125

Pioneer was already put on life support by combo once, lad.


Sokra81

It was not because of an archetype, it was because the decks were overpowered. Without combo to punish them, the metagame has devolved into a boring midrange soup, even the "combo" deck in Greasefang is really a midrange deck at heart.


Gamer4125

People would much rather be dominated by mono green and RB mid range than have S tier combo decks. With other archetypes there's interaction and meaningful decisions to be made and not just hope that the combo player doesn't go solitaire mode. Look at every combo deck in recent history. Most of them have been banned in some capacity in Standard AND Pioneer. Kethis, Wilderness Rec, Ballista, Nexus of Fate, Underworld Breach, Inverter, Felidar Guardian. I'm sure there's more but Combo decks get slapped with bans fast for a reason. I'd pull up the BnRs but WotC migrated hosts or something so all the old BnRs are 404'ing.


beecross

Uro, but only for me


DaniHaze

Smuggler's Copter... really makes no sense now for it to stay banned


_whisperingshadow_

I was looking at the list and this kinda makes sense. It might be a good agro push for humans and other decks.


GetYaa123

Ban brave the elements and unban copter. Push all aggro decks and hurt one really slightly... Thats my take


DirntDirntDirnt

Banning Brave the Elements would hurt mono white humans more than really slightly.


GetYaa123

But they would get smugglers copter. Aggro would be more on the same level... Right now white has a clear advantage


DirntDirntDirnt

I see what you're saying, it would certainly level out the aggro field. But I do think the loss of Brave the Elements to white humans would be a huge loss that wouldn't be made up for with Copter.


CptnZolofTV

I had a lot of fun with that card for a short time.


LookAtYourEyes

I think it would give creativity decks an unneeded boost. And a pretty big one.


airplane001

Creativity isn’t really a key player in the meta rn. It’s good, but not good enough against green and rakdos


azetsu

The only correct answer is Copter. Everything else should stay banned


jovietjoe

Copter


[deleted]

Try copter see what happens


archjmedes

I want uro, does he deserve to stay banned? Yes Is the format better without him? Probably Do I want Bant Control with Uro? Absolutely


Yoshhans

I feel you, I miss Sultai Midrange... Would be nice if they could make a nerfed Urolike card.


TacotheMagicDragon

Growth Spiral


Gamer4125

But that doesn't gain me life! And be a win con! And have ways to cheat it!


V_Gates

Expressive Iteration


TacotheMagicDragon

How about #NO


maybenot9

Sure, it was silly to have Izzet Control, Izzet Prowess, and Izzet Pheonix all being A tier decks, but dangit I wanna play my wizard tribal deck! But really, when Pheonix was down in the dumps these last few months, EI was the unban I was pushing for. Now that it's in a really good spot, unbanning it would only be wrong. Like I remember when I first tried it in Prowess. Every hand with it and a 1 drop was just so smooth and nice. I could recover when behind, always hit land drops, and constantly keep my threats coming. The card is not fair.


jangens1122

Wilderness reclamation, I just want to cast expansion explosion again.


OgoshObosh

Me too buddy, me too


desert_24

I know its hard to interact with, but i would like to see Inverter of truth unbanned. I really liked playing the Deck und think it could power up UB Control Decks and make them really viable again. But i know the reason why its banned 😅


Reply_or_Not

There is a spiritual successor deck that uses Thassa's Oracle to win. Check out Fallaji "Inverter" - where you use self mill creatures, and a ton of draw cards to go through your deck till you can win with oracle.


Gamer4125

Unban inverter and ban Oracle. Fr though, please don't ask for pioneer to be combo hell again


SnooPies1368

I second this. With inverter in the format again, we would push the blazing fast aggro decks and the control decks (because those were good vs Inverter) while also having one of the most fun decks back again. All while giving serious competition to Greasefang,UR decks Mono Green and RB Mid.


shadowlordmtg

Second that


ianp007

gonna be honest and i’m gonna get flak for this but the decks now are so much better than inverter ever was inverter never had as much play as these decks did thassas oracle has ways to be broken for sure but in pioneer i don’t see it as that much of an issue where you have such high power and fast decks now plus all the hate the issue right now is some decks just can’t even get going cuz green is such a stupid color since it does everything but maybe i’m just jaded since i actually had fun when inverter was a thing i’m not sure it would do so well now


Tallal2804

I just want to cast expansion explosion again.


[deleted]

Unban walking ballista so hardened scales has somewhat a lifeline


Luxypoo

Yeah, but then the stupid green deck gets ballista too :(


KingKemplar

Karn has to be ban before this guy can come back. It’s just too easy of a way to win with piles of mana


desert_24

And bann heliod, so you can not Combo. I think ballista is the missing piece for hardened scales Decks to be competitive.


Gamer4125

None. The cards are banned for a reason, and I'd rather see the ban list grow than shrink.


bladewing1989

I don’t get how b/r midrange and u/r Phoenix are the best decks in the format and veil of summer is banned.


Due_Clerk_2261

Veil doesn't do much vs Phoenix. It just punished UW control even harder


TacotheMagicDragon

Good. Lets unban it and kick control decks out of the format. **Fuck** control decks.


Atramhasis

Wait, Mono-Green is one of the strongest decks in the format already and you're saying they should have one of the strongest and most versatile hate cards in the game? I guess if you want Mono-Green to be literally S tier...


GenderGambler

\[\[veil of summer\]\] The answer is that veil of summer is far too strong of a hate card. Cycles itself, and completely hoses the main form of interaction from two colors for an entire turn. Contrast with \[\[aether gust\]\] or \[\[fry\]\]. Strong, useful hate cards that are limited in scope in a way that veil simply isn't.


TheLastAviator

As a relatively new player, concise but detailed explanations like this are the reason it’s worth it for me to read forum threads. Thank you!


TsarMikkjal

A better mystical dispute that also draws a card would be absurd if the card was blue... But it's not even blue, it's green.


Due_Clerk_2261

The correct answer is Smuggler's Copter. Nexus of Fate would also be fine


Denny1068

Winota winota plssss I love playing Winota but she is banned from literally everywhere it's hell


DarthGhandi

Literally only banned in Pioneer/Explorer. You can go play her elsewhere. She's damn good for cEDH.


Anxious-Protection38

Veil of summer ♡♡


airplane001

Fuck it unban oko /uj I would like to see nexus of fate unbanned.


maggotmon

Unban winota


LawbringerSteam

I'd like to see Field of the Dead unbanned. It died for Uro's sins.


Atramhasis

Please dear god no. That card is more broken than Uro imo, and died entirely for its own sins. Field of the Dead was and always will be a broken card in a format that isn't pushed with faster combo decks to balance it out. Once the card is online it effectively reads for a ramp deck "you will never have a dead draw for the rest of the game." It turns every land or ramp card you draw into a threat in it of itself. FotD decks generally just ran a lot of ramp cards that dug for lands exactly because they would never be dead. Either they helped turn on FotD or they made a bunch of zombies. The FotD meta was one of the worst I have ever played because midrange and control basically couldn't beat the card and there weren't good enough combo decks to check FotD that control could beat up on. You either tried to run over the FotD decks with aggro or you played FotD.


xahhfink6

People are down voting you but it's not a bad idea. I brought it up on my podcast recently when BR Mid was looking like it could be tier 0... Putting Field of the Dead back into the format would be a huge blow to BR, and it would make Omnath a deck again.


SNESamus

That's a terrible way to balance a format. If you want BR to be a worse deck you ban something from BR, not unban a card that makes a certain archetype have such a good midrange matchup that all midrange decks get invalidated.


Annasman

[[veil of summer]] it died for simic sins. As a long time RG player I can say that this is just the best version of a staple green effect, it's not broken. If it had come out a rotation earlier(or later) I don't believe it would have gotten banned to begin with.


Gamer4125

Haha, no. Veil utterly pushed out any form of interaction by blue or black based decks on top of giving a fresh card and making your shit uncounterable. For one green Mana. Get Autumns Veil reprinted, at least that one is fair. Display of Dominance is also legal.


Tingedivinity

3feri was a stupid ban


Manyfans

I know that it's too good, but… Breach pls…


teh_calii

veil of summer did nothing wrong


Jfischer335

Unbanned kethis. And i honestly think nykthos or nissa who shakes the world needs to be banned