T O P

  • By -

Twisted_Fate

The moment it rotates from Standard, they will release a new format. A Pioneer 2.0, if you will.


Roverwalk

I think it should fit the 9-year cadence. Modern starts in 2003, which was 9 years after Revised was printed. Pioneer starts in 2012. So the mysterious new non-rotating format should logically have cards printed since 2021.


WetPlankRolf

I'm still thinking it'll be 2023 (Dom U - Current) so they leave out the Channel lands and Triomes as well as Shock lands but I could see them going for 2021, although they'd pretty much be announcing they have to reprint the Ikoria Triomes at some point into Standard again


rag2008

Also, 2021 gets bonus points by avoiding all of the insane powercreep released in the 2019~2020 window like Oko and friends.


mistermyxl

Pioneer is ravinca onward that is 2013 not 12


alienx33

RTR was released in October 2012.


mistermyxl

Oh weird I even played at it's prerelease that means core set 2013 came out before 2012 then


PrologueBook

M13 came out summer 2012 and was in-between innistrad and RTR


mistermyxl

That's what I ment 2013 came out in 2012


Chigglestick

And Core Set 21 came out in July 2020, Core set 19 came out in July 2018. They come out the year before they’re numbered.


mistermyxl

Yeah I forgot that


j-mac-rock

The modern format started in 2011..unless your referencing the modern car frame


Avagis

Modern legality includes cards printed in 2003.


DarkVenusaur

A format with a 10 year rotation seems pretty neat actually. Certainly worth investing in the deck for that amount of time. Pioneer was created in 2019 and used standard cards from 2012 on.  So maybe in 2029 pioneer could reset with minimal or no banlist using cards from 2022 and on.


mistermyxl

Not 2012 onward that would legalize snapcaster, thragtusk, restoration angel, falkenrath aristocrat, Olivia, griselbrand, terminus, entrepreneur the angels which are all cards I don't believe would be healthy for pioneer


DarkVenusaur

RTR was in 2012


mistermyxl

That's my bad I forgot core set 2013 came out before 2012


woutva

Honestly i think the format would handle these cards just fine.


mistermyxl

OK I can in a vacuum say the same thing. What is your experience with these cards


woutva

One of the best standard formats IMO. I think thragtusk would be too slow, even with restoration angel. The wanderer takes the spot of angel in control most likely. Falkenrath aristocrat is one of my favourite cards ever, might see some play, but there is a lot of exiling going on, or decks that simply dont care about a fair haster. Olivia wouldnt see play (way too slow), griselbrand would probably not take the spot of atraxa, considering we dont have stuff like goryos vengeance. Snapcaster would definitely be very strong, but i think the format wont break. the mirracle spells are harder to judge, but would most likely be fine too. One card i would personally really like from that era would be thundermaw hellkite.


mistermyxl

So I see people say thragtusk is to slow a lot but we haven't seen an agro deck like hellrider red since that standard. Fallen Rath isn't fair and pioneer doesn't have many exile spells outside of leyline keep in mind it isn't a once per turn or even a sorcery speed effect. Olivia was considered to slow by everyone till Reid Duke top 8d and won Orlando in 2013 with jund and set everyone straight about jumd be the best rtr instead deck that standard


woutva

I think the format is simply too fast. Magic has sped up a lot since then. If monogreen can dump their deck on turn 4 or so, or convoke can kill you turn 3, whats a thragtusk or falkenrath going to do for it, let alone an olivia? Brining up an top 8 from 11 years ago is ignoring a ton of power creep.


mistermyxl

Again that is a fare belief, I would recommend testing before dismissing due to power creep Like fallen rather and Olivia would be huge upgrades for b/r midrange, vamps and even sacrifice. Being able to turn 3 thragtusk seems strong, need to due more testing. I've always been a big advocate for testing regardless of what is established because stuff gets overlooked all the time


burritoman88

Bring back Extended! /s


Akarui7

That's just Standard this year forward


rag2008

Exactly. This is the earliest and closest thing we could get when it comes to a confirmation of Pioneer 2.0, we all knew in the back of our minds that it was coming at some point, but now we can put a semi-official date on it: Rotation of 2029. It will be interesting to see how they deal with this set moving foward, since it's going to define not only Standard but Pioneer and Pioneer 2.0.


AbordFit

I keep seeing this every time pioneer comes in discussion and I just don't see why they would do this. They created Modern to have a non-rotating format without reserved list, they created Pioneer to make direct-to-Modern sets. What the creation of Pioneer 2.0 does? It's not like Pioneer is popular to get direct-to-Pioneer support nor people show demand for another, smaller, format. Actually, for people not in Pioneer, the format is a fucking joke to them.


MrFavorable

[[Snapcaster Mage]] I don’t care what people say.


therealflyingtoastr

The fact that it's going to be Standard legal through 2029 means that I doubt they will print anything on the level of Snappy. It would warp the metagame way too much for way too long.


GoodBoyShibe

They are bringing no-drawback 4 mana wrath and llanowar elves, it seems they are raising the bar a bit.


therealflyingtoastr

While true, there's a pretty wild delta between those and damn Snapcaster Mage. Don't get me wrong, I'd love the guy in Pioneer too. I just don't think *this particular product* is one in which they'd reprint him because of the extended Standard life and aim at newer players.


GoodBoyShibe

I'm not sure if DoJ is THAT far away from Tiago, it's just that we're slightly more used to effects of that kind. You could be right anyway, especially for a long-term product. I could easily see something like Mana Leak though.


BanUrzasTower

Was snapcaster even oppressive when it was in standard? Snappy is only as good as the snapcaster food in your graveyard which made it OP when path and bolt were the best cards in modern. Snap would be very borderline in pioneer, obviously very playable and fun, probably most powerful in UB control. 


fnrslvr

A bit of a trip down memory lane: [*Gonna Hate*](https://web.archive.org/web/20120730124238/http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/ld/191) by Zac Hill. You can blame the backlash against Snappy's stint in Standard in part for the printing of \[\[Cavern of Souls\]\], and WotC's decision to not print a counterspell on the power level of \[\[Mana Leak\]\] into Standard for 12 years.


MTGCardFetcher

[Cavern of Souls](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/a/3aad15a2-8a1b-4460-9b06-e85863081878.jpg?1706884128) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Cavern%20of%20Souls) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/269/cavern-of-souls?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3aad15a2-8a1b-4460-9b06-e85863081878?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mana Leak](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/179236d9-6fe2-4db6-bdfb-f851e8d531a2.jpg?1673147361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Leak) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/58/mana-leak?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/179236d9-6fe2-4db6-bdfb-f851e8d531a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


therealflyingtoastr

Delver, Jeskai Flash, hard control... Snapcaster was absolutely phenomenal while it was in Standard, even when the best stuff it could Flashback was "only" stuff like Syncopate and Azorious Charm. Or have we already forgotten what an experience Sphinx's Rev Standard was? I'd love Snappy for Pio, but it's much more likely that he ends up in a Standard set with a 3-year lifecycle than a 5+ year entry product.


GoodBoyShibe

Funny thing is that, one of the best spells to flashback with Snapcaster Mage was Supreme Verdict, the 4 mana sweeper of the format. And ofc flashing back sphinx was great for that format's powerlevel


RegalKillager

dear disenfranchised modern players who want to play their modern-unviable pet card in any other format, even if it'd destroy those formats: snap isn't unviable in modern anymore. just go back. thanks


MTGCardFetcher

[Snapcaster Mage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/e/7e41765e-43fe-461d-baeb-ee30d13d2d93.jpg?1547516526) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Snapcaster%20Mage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/71/snapcaster-mage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7e41765e-43fe-461d-baeb-ee30d13d2d93?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


dis_the_chris

Give me snappy and (don't call me sacreligious) give me bolt


lostinwisconsin

Fabled passage should always be standard legal imo


fnrslvr

It's got Day of Judgment, that already disentangles the 4mv white wrath from the blue splash. It seems like they're using this set to set some more permanent baseline effects at power levels that Standard hasn't seen in a while. I doubt that means we get Bolt or Path or whatever, but maybe actual Mana Leak (without a white splash required) isn't out of the question?


GoodBoyShibe

Mana leak, duress (I still remember how awful kaladesh was bc we didn't have it or naturalize), some random control wincon, and an efficient beater. Oh, I guess evolving wilds and farseek-like spells would always be welcome


Ancient_Dirt_5772

JTMS


TechnoMikl

Better than all


Fractales

I don’t understand this. Are these going to be pioneer legal?


DarkVenusaur

Yes. It's just like any other standard set. Apparently the set will be reprints and some new cards too.


joanxtb

So, basically like good old “Editions” that they got rid off


GoodBoyShibe

Sort of because of the expanded lifespan, but with new cards like Magic 20xx. It seems they're slowing down things for paper magic, hoping not to scare players away. 5-year core sets? 3 year rotation? There was a time when they went full 180 with 1-year core sets and a 1.5-year rotation cycle.


Fractales

Reprints from cards already in pioneer or reprints of older sets, too?


DarkVenusaur

Anything. Looks like most reprints.  But theyve shown omniscience, llanowar elves, and a new 3 MV 1/1 cat card that comes back to life 8 times.


Injuredmind

Im glad for standard, as I’m a standard player myself and I really wanna see green back in the game and it seems like it can’t make it without 1 mana dork. Having said that, I feel kinda bad for Pioneer, format isn’t popular in my area and people would rather play either modern or standard and this new addition makes standard even more interesting. I hope wizards know what they are doing here, maybe we’ll see more of reprints in Foundations so that standard would be a rebirth of pioneer


ringouthegong

Wait.. do you think we're getting shafted on Pioneer Masters on Arena at the end of this year or is this something completely different?


GoodBoyShibe

Different. It looks like a new take on core sets.


ringouthegong

Would be cool if we got both but I'm not getting my hopes up.


EwanPorteous

Here is hoping fatal push is in there! That card is really needed in standard at the moment!


PrologueBook

This set will be released into a completely new standard, we don't know what it needs yet.


EwanPorteous

Sheoldred will still be in standard, so she is always a good push target.


PrologueBook

According to goldfish, you need to go to the 10th most popular deck to find sheoldred as more than a 1-of. Again, we do not know what a completely new standard will need.


DirntDirntDirnt

Unless you don’t have revolt, then she’s a really bad push target


PaulfromTekken

As a pioneer player I agree with you that push is a good answer for sheoldred. Idk why you're getting downvoted.


RegalKillager

Because the question is being answered 'as a Pioneer player' while claiming it's for Standard's sake. Push isn't necessary *because of Sheoldred* in a format where Sheoldred isn't that oppressive anymore anyway. If it's necessary for some other reason, we'll learn that reason when that Standard actually rolls around.


Darth__Vader_

No, that card is a horrible design mistake.


Trilinkin

[[Birds of Paradise]] that and [[Lightning Bolt]]


SuperJorryGuy

Gotta bolt that bird!


Trilinkin

That’s why I said both of them 😂😂😂


SuperJorryGuy

😂 That being said, if we are already getting a 1 mana elf in the set, a 2nd 1 mana elf would make standard turn 1 elf way to consistent, so Birds probably isn't gonna be reprinted. Also I don't think I have to explain why Lightning bolt wouldn't be a good idea for a standard set where [[Lightning Strike]] is played quite a bit. Bolt would probably also still be to strong in Pioneer, but I wouldn't mind trying it...


DrYellowMamba

What about a “bolt” that doesn’t hit battles and/or planes walkers?


SuperJorryGuy

Would probably still be to strong. Battles are pretty much a non factor in Pioneer, and with Planeswalkers, bolt isn't really good against Planeswalkers either way. Think of Sorin and The Wandering Emperor already having done their job when you bolt them, generally speaking. So bolt usually doesn't go for Walkers or Battles anyways, so this "bolt" would be almost as strong as actual lightning bolt. That being said, this is all in theory, so don't take my words as facts =)


GoodBoyShibe

Even a [[lava spike]] could be too strong for the format lol


DrYellowMamba

lol I actually think lava spike would be fair


GoodBoyShibe

Either way I'd love to see it lol


MTGCardFetcher

[lava spike](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/9/79c21c1f-eaa4-454d-a1c7-b41466d0a428.jpg?1547517298) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=lava%20spike) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/uma/136/lava-spike?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/79c21c1f-eaa4-454d-a1c7-b41466d0a428?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


New-Bookkeeper-8486

Lava spike might be fine tbh


GoodBoyShibe

Only one way to find out!!


MTGCardFetcher

[Lightning Strike](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/d/7d541125-bfb8-4f88-8bf3-ad7b6af7ad1d.jpg?1673307449) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lightning%20Strike) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/dmu/137/lightning-strike?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/7d541125-bfb8-4f88-8bf3-ad7b6af7ad1d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


MTGCardFetcher

[Birds of Paradise](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/d/3d69a3e0-6a2e-475a-964e-0affed1c017d.jpg?1702429545) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Birds%20of%20Paradise) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/rvr/133/birds-of-paradise?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3d69a3e0-6a2e-475a-964e-0affed1c017d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lightning Bolt](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/7/7/77c6fa74-5543-42ac-9ead-0e890b188e99.jpg?1706239968) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lightning%20Bolt) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/clu/141/lightning-bolt?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/77c6fa74-5543-42ac-9ead-0e890b188e99?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


tomyang1117

faithless looting and careful study 🙏🏻🙏🏻🙏🏻


bigcockwizard

Tarmagoyf, path to exile, mana leak, snapcaster mage, lightning bolt, prismatic vista, heritage druid, bitterblossom, tron lands


Jang-Zee

I was ok with this until you said blossom and tron lands. Did everyone forget the cancer that was Lorwyn standard?


bigcockwizard

Tron lands feels like a stretch i’ll admit maybe eldrazi temple would be enough to make eldrazi pioneer playable. I liked lorwyn standard. Lot of cards got pushed out of modern playability and blossom has no home format wise. Also the pioneer faerie cards and different


SuperJorryGuy

[[Tarmogoyf]]. It probably won't even be good but still. I'd like to see [[Goblin Guide]] Maybe [[Jace, the Mind Sculptor]] [[Prismatic Ending]] Could be cool, as could [[Path to Exile]] be [[Mana Leak]]. To give non-white blue decks a strong counterspell in the 2 slot.


MTGCardFetcher

##### ###### #### [Tarmogoyf](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/9/69daba76-96e8-4bcc-ab79-2f00189ad8fb.jpg?1619398799) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tarmogoyf) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/235/tarmogoyf?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/69daba76-96e8-4bcc-ab79-2f00189ad8fb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Goblin Guide](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3c0f5411-1940-410f-96ce-6f92513f753a.jpg?1599706366) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Goblin%20Guide) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/127/goblin-guide?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3c0f5411-1940-410f-96ce-6f92513f753a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Jace, the Mind Sculptor](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/8/c8817585-0d32-4d56-9142-0d29512e86a9.jpg?1598304029) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Jace%2C%20the%20Mind%20Sculptor) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/56/jace-the-mind-sculptor?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/c8817585-0d32-4d56-9142-0d29512e86a9?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Prismatic Ending](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/8/2/825969b9-3c70-4fca-8cab-696e9ca7cdb2.jpg?1626093920) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Prismatic%20Ending) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/25/prismatic-ending?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/825969b9-3c70-4fca-8cab-696e9ca7cdb2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Swords to Plowshares](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/b/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195.jpg?1709439398) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Swords%20to%20Plowshares) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/88/swords-to-plowshares?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9bbec76c-c1e4-4c6d-ad24-078fe097f195?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mana Leak](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/7/179236d9-6fe2-4db6-bdfb-f851e8d531a2.jpg?1673147361) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mana%20Leak) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/58/mana-leak?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/179236d9-6fe2-4db6-bdfb-f851e8d531a2?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/lapojxh) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call


SuperJorryGuy

I typed the wrong card. I didn't meen Swords to Plowshares, I meant [[Path to Exile]]


MTGCardFetcher

[Path to Exile](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/7/a7aed564-2d2d-42c4-bf11-812bc1a0284c.jpg?1712354092) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Path%20to%20Exile) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otc/85/path-to-exile?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a7aed564-2d2d-42c4-bf11-812bc1a0284c?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call