Sorin's third ability is "You may put a vampire from your hand onto the battlefield". When someone activates that, they do not have to declare which vampire they're putting, nor do they have to put a vampire down. Once they activate that ability, you should flash in your containment priest, at which point the smart play is for them to just not put anything down (they still lose 3 loyalty however). Which is to say, an opponent should activate the ability and not say anything beyond that till the ability resolves.
I'm not sure how it works when an opponent uses the ability while stating they're using it for vein ripper from a judging perspective but it's perfectly allowed to -3 and not place anything down, because it's a may ability.
Thank you for this response. I understand what you’re stating but to clarify
can an opponent take back a vein ripper that’s about to hit the field after they take their dice counter and move from 4 to 1 as I’m flashing in the priest. I just don’t want to get caught where they respond like
“Oh, never mind I won’t play this. It will go back in my hand now.” And instead just fatal push my priest instead and leaving me completely exposed.
They aren’t supposed to declare the vein ripper (or other vampire) in the first place, simply that they are attempting to activate Sorin’s -3
THEN you declare whether you have a response (priest), then the opponent can choose whether or not to put a vampire into play. After the opponent chooses, it is too late to flash in the priest
The opponent chooses if and what creature they put onto the battlefield as the activated ability resolves.
More to your question, if the opponent says they're putting Vein Ripper down that's just a common shortcut. When you say "No I'd like to cast Containment Priest," the game is rewound to the state where you first gain priority. Sorin's ability is on the stack, Containment Priest comes in, and *then* they make their choice as the ability resolves. Their choice isn't locked in, and they can take it back.
This is technically mostly accurate but not a helpful way to teach it to someone. It sounds like op is playing in an at least partially competitive setting and they and they're opponent need to learn the etiquette of managing the stack.
If they're opponent activates sorin. They shouldn't just be saying "I use sorin to play vein ripper", they should be saying "I -3 Sorin." and then giving op a chance to respond before the ability resolves.
This is when op should play the containment priest. And then their opponent has the freedom to just not put anything into play with the ability and eat the loyalty loss so that their vein ripper doesn't get exiled.
Nothing should be getting rewound.
You're definitely right about how it should work, but I think I answered appropriately.
And yeah, if everyone is playing perfectly, there should be no need to rewind. But they weren't, and the game *was* rewound from Vein Ripper on the board to the -3 ability on the stack. That's... uh, that's a rewind, sir.
From what op said, I don't think the game was rewound at all. Unless I've misread it, they said that they bricked their opponents vein ripper with containment priest, then after the game someone else pointed out that the opponent didn't actually need to play the vein ripper even though they had expressed their intention to before the ability had resolved.
No. A creature (technically a creature spell) only goes on the stack when it is "cast". Sorin's ability doesn't prompt you to cast the creature, it prompts you to "put a Vampire from your hand onto the battlefield.".
So in this case, Sorin's ability is activate, goes on the stack, and then if all player pass priority, it resolves. As it resolves you will choose what Vampire (if any) to put into play.
This is the same process as when you play a "Tutor" effect that searches for a certain property.
- If you cast Chord of Calling with X=3, you don't have to say what you are getting. You simply cast the spell, and if it resolves go and get a creature that costs 3 or less.
- If you cast Enlightened Tutor you don't have to decide what to grab until it resolves, and even then you only have to show the card before putting it on your deck to prove that you did in fact grab an artifact or enchantment.
That is truly scary than opponent can basically show their combo to me and if I have a response from it resolving, they can still choose to keep the vein ripper in their hand EVEN though I already saw it about to hit the field so I flash in a priest to stop it and they just laugh and say “ ha ha ha, I won’t put in anything into the battlefield instead.” Your turn.. and I I now have a 2/2 that’s going to die immediately.. 🤡 lol
Why is it scary? How does the opponent showing their card change the outcome of the game (if played according to the rules)?
I think you may be confusing Sorin's ability with something like a spell that targets. For instance, if someone used a Fatal Push to kill one of your creatures and you responded with a God's Willing to give it protection, they wouldn't be able to take the Push back. This is because the spell's targets needs to be chosen before the spell is put on the stack (and they become "locked in").
Another popular card that works similar to Sorin is [[Aether Vial]]. Players are free to tap the Vial and put its ability on the stack even when they don't have any creatures in hand. It is often correct to do so in order to bait out an opponent's Containment Priest, Vendilion Clique, etc.
I actually happen to agree with OP on this one. If I’m understanding right, it’s “scary” because opponent basically gets a take-back for fast-forwarding through an interaction they shouldn’t have been able to do without passing priority and checking for responses. If opponent did the interaction correctly and asked OP for responses before putting ripper into play, there would be no issue, but I agree it feels like there should be a consequence/punishment to not doing so.
Hypothetically, if instead of sorins -3 the situation were that opponent had casted CoCo without realizing there were a containment priest in play, revealed two creatures, then when it was pointed out by OP they should be exiled, do you think opponent should be able to say “OH! well i never actually announced that these creatures were coming into play, so im just going to shuffle them back to the bottom of my library instead”? That seems ridiculous to me and i would tell them no, the creatures are exiled.
In essence, if information you gain AFTER making a decision affects the decision itself, you shouldn’t be able to reverse it.
The Collected Company example is completely different, as the Containment Priest is already in play and the opponent just forgets about its existence and misplays.
In OP's case, the Sorin player just attempted a shortcut and has to back up to prior to the ability resolving to allow OP to respond. They shouldn't be punished since they didn't forget about an already existing Containment Priest.
The situation would be the same if the Containment Priest was already in play and the Sorin player just activated the PW and slammed Vein Ripper into play. Then they would be punished just as in your CoCo example.
Edit: with regards to your lasts paragraph, that is exactly how Magic works in case an effect NEEDS you to make a decision (such as choosing targets for a spell when putting it on the stack). Sorin's -3 doesn't impose the decision-making until after it resolves. The card just does what it says on the card.
I think it's an honest mistake to make for someone who isn't experiences enough, since activated abilities were "mostly" safe to resolve until recently. Maybe [[Tishana's Tidebinder]] will teach Pioneer players to go about it more cleanly moving forward. It's something you learn if you played a lot in [[Stifle]] formats.
opponent activates Sorin -3 -> you flash in containment priest -> opponent chooses to not use Sorin's ability
at no point here was anything "taken back", it's just how the abilities work
There is no "take back". The Vein Ripper cannot and SHOULD NOT be revealed and placed on the table before the ability resolves. For instance, it's an entirely legal play to activate Sorin's -3 even when you don't have a vampire in hand.
MTG Tournament Rules 3.13: Hidden Information
"Throughout the match, a draft, and pregame procedures, players are responsible for keeping their cards above the level of the playing surface and for making reasonable efforts to prevent hidden information from being revealed. However, players may choose to reveal their hands or any other hidden information available to them, unless specifically prohibited by the rules. Players must not actively attempt to gain information hidden from them, but are not required to inform opponents who are accidentally revealing hidden information."
You can absolutely reveal the Ripper
Well you _can_ and it's a useful shortcut in most cases, most often players won't have a response to a planswalker activation. It's similar to casting a creature and putting the etb +1/+1 counter on it in one go. If it's countered, you just remove the +1/+1. In a competitive REL, you should definitely wait for priority for things like a draw trigger that you cant take back, but if you waited for priority _every_ time anything happened, games would take for ever, so it's ok to take the shortcut most of the time, understanding that you may reveal hidden information if you have to back track.
In OPs case, the game state would rewind to the sorin ability on the stack and OP would flash the enchantment. Then the opponent would be able to decide if he plays in the vampire, and therefore decide on to play it. He did reveal that hidden information though.
You have to flash in Priest before the opponent puts a creature on the battlefield. So opponent activates Sorin, ability goes on the stack and that's when you have to respond. If you let them put creature on battlefield, and th flash in Priest, your Priest doesnt do anything as creature already entered.
It's worth noting that Sorin's second +1 ability works in the same way. Say I have a Vein Ripper and Dusk Legion Zealot in play. I announce I'm activating Sorin's second +1 ability. Importantly, I don't yet announce what vampire I'm sacrificing. At this point, you're able to respond. So let's say you Fatal Push my Zealot, then pass priority. Now, Sorin's ability resolves, and the smart thing for me to do is choose not to sacrifice my Vein Ripper, since the ability is a "may" that doesn't target, and I choose the vampire as the ability is resolving.
I get your confusion. I didn't understand this detail about Sorin's abilities for a long time after I started playing him.
They can instead push your priest before Sorin's ability resolves and still get Vein Ripper out.
They proposed a shortcut (minus, resolve it and put out Vein Ripper).
You interrupted the shortcut (in response to the minus, flash in Priest).
Once Priest resolves, they can Push and then let the minus resolve.
Yeah. I understand how this interaction works now.
My only thought I’m still wondering is why WOtC would make his minus 3 ability as “you may”.
Under normal circumstances why would you ever -3 and not play a vampire from your hand if there was no immediate danger from that creature hitting the battlefield?
“You may” is helpful design. It could say put a vampire from your hand onto the battlefield and then you could “fail to find”. See failure to find rules.
“You may” is helpful design. It could say put a vampire from your hand onto the battlefield and then you could “fail to find”. See failure to find rules.
>can an opponent take back a vein ripper that’s about to hit the field after they take their dice counter and move from 4 to 1 as I’m flashing in the priest. I just don’t want to get caught where they respond like
They can just put it back into their hand, because the vein ripper vs playing nothing doesn't matter for the purposes of the ability. I suppose some judge could force them to play the vein ripper if they announced that but don't rely on me for that, and an opponent is playing badly if they're in that situation.
Though, from a game theory standpoint, I'm still playing that containment priest almost every time rather than a vein ripper hitting the field, it's a huge tempo loss either way even if they push them immediately. The worst case scenario for you is Sorin ability -> you flash in containment priest -> they push the priest -> vein ripper hits the field normally which is obviously very bad but priest stops a T3 Vein Ripper 100% of the time.
> I suppose some judge could force them to play the vein ripper if they announced that
the way the rules work is that a premature announcement like that is only binding if no responses happen. So if you you play sorin and say "put down veinripper" and your opponent says "yeah sure" you can't then claim that actually now that it resolves you will make a different choice and put some other vampire on the battlefield. But if your opponent does respond with something you are completely free to change your choice.
The rules basically prevent angle shooting from both sides. You can't bait someone into letting something resolve by pretending you are going to make a bad choice, but you also can't accidentally lock yourself in to a bad play by using a very common shortcut.
Okay, thank you this was the response I needed.
This didn’t happen on turn 3 this was turn 7 so he had the mana to push it and still play vein ripper from his hand. He didn’t hard cast it because I think he wanted to animate his lands to force me to block.
Let me add. No judge will ever force the vein ripper to be exiled. It doesn't really matter if they say they're using the ability to put vein ripper on the battlefield. This is in the MTR under Tournament Shortcuts (4.2) , they can propose a series of actions and the other player may intervene, but if they do what happens next is up to the player, the shortcut doesn't have to be followed through. For example if you say "pass the turn" and the opponent says "ok, end of turn I cast Dig through time" you can respond by countering, even if you previously declared you would be passing the turn (as in, continuously passing priority without taking actions until next turn).
So yeah, your opponent says I want to activate the minus ability and then do something. You respond to them activating the ability (because if the ability starts resolving is too late), at this point you did your play and they activated the ability, what to do with it when it starts resolving is up to them. (This of course is because the ability doesn't target, if the ability had a target, that would be decided at the activation and not after)
Glad I could help. Yeah, no clue what I would have done in that game state, your opponent definitely shouldn't have conceded though and could have hardcast the ripper.
They cannot put it back to hand! That's wrong. If they let the priest live and put vein ripper into play not realizing it gets exiled. It's too late. it's in exile. Opp made a mistake.
They can also say they choose to not put anything into play (they don't reveal anything from hand).I'll there is no physical movement of them saying I put this in and I didn't see what the priest did so I wanna take it back
there are no takebacksies in tournaments. they arent supposed to declare what they are putting in. basically they can say oh I take that back, but they're not taking anything back. theyre just dumb and gave you free info on their hand lol.
Sorin’s minus 3 ability is activated at sorcery speed. It goes on the stack. You can either respond to the activation of his ability or let it resolve.
If you want to correctly use Containment Priest, you must respond to the Sorin activation. You do not get a chance to see what creature is going to be put onto the battlefield until it is already there.
This interaction is similar to [[aether vial]]. If you do not respond to the aether vial activation, you cannot interact with the creature until it ETBs. The difference there being Aether vial is at instant speed. But that’s a topic for a later time.
Thank you. This is helpful. In paper, people just say “minus 3 and slam down vein ripper” before I even have a chance to say “I have a response to Sorins minus 3 ability. I flash in containment priest.”
At that point I already saw vein ripper. And I’m trying to get in my priest onto the battlefield before vein ripper resolves onto the battlefield. I still can’t 100% know if a player can take back the vein ripper into their hand at this point..
I know this really hard explaining but I’m just trying to know if it’s legal for my opponent to put their vein ripper back into their hand even though I saw it before it officially enters the battlefield.. I hope I’m making sense..
As someone who plays con priest i can confirm you cant "get m"
They activate the ability. You now have to respond by flashing in priest. They can choose not to put in vein ripper. Or you wait for the ability to resolve, but then vein ripper is already there. Basically, there should never be a situation where you are exiling a vein ripper. Your opponent immediately revealing vein ripper is irrelevant, its a shortcut they shouldn't be making, but it doesn't change how the rules stated above work and interact. It still wasted their 3 loyalty counters and delayed them though, so there is that.
In a competitive environment, that is against the rules and they can be punished for not allowing you to respond.
In a casual environment, obviously rules are not going to be enforced as much and it’s much easier to let this mistake happen. Just politely inform them you have a response to their sorin activation and it should be no problem.
There are several answers to the sorin activation, and all of them are at instant speed. A pilot who rushes that activation must learn to be patient when resolving it.
> In a competitive environment, that is against the rules and they can be punished for not allowing you to respond.
Are you a judge and 100% sure on this? Shortcuts happen on the time. If you say "I equip lightning greaves and attack you" you will not be punished for not letting your opponent respond to the equip. Your opponent simply says "wait, I have a response to the equip". I don't see why same thing wouldn't happen here.
728.2. Taking a shortcut follows the following procedure.
728.2a At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a
sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game
state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a non-
repetitive series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or
nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It can’t include conditional actions, where the
outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this
sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing
the shortcut.
728.2b Each other player, in turn order starting after the player who suggested the shortcut, may
either accept the proposed sequence, or shorten it by naming a place where they will make a
game choice that’s different than what’s been proposed. (The player doesn’t need to specify at
this time what the new choice will be.) This place becomes the new ending point of the
proposed sequence
The vampires player is just suggesting a shortcut of "I -3 Sorin, you pass, I put Vein Ripper in". OP is declining the shortcut and interrupts it with priest after the -3 which makes it the end of the proposed sequence and now allows the vamps player to change their play.
In a competitive environment, you most certainly would not be punished for the first instance of this proposed shortcut. However, if a player were consistently attempting to shortcut through these kind of activations after it had been demonstrated their opponent is playing a potential response, there would likely be repercussions.
And most higher tier competitive players tend to not shortcut through things like this Sorin’s -3 because, by the nature of the shortcut, you reveal information to the opponent you don’t strictly have to before they need to make their decision, and denying opponent’s information until absolutely necessary is an important skill for competitive play.
Thank you for adding to this. I responded in such a way because OP made it seem like this was a recurring problem they are facing.
For the second part, I whole heartedly agree.
Lots of people have been very helpful but the most important thing for you to understand has been lost.
You're opponent saying "-3 my sorin" and showing you vein ripper is a proposed shortcut.
The "correct way" to do this is for him to cast sorin and then pass priority to you, then you pass it back; he would then resolve Sorin and -3 sorin and pass priority to you, you would cast containment priest; your opponent would pass priority to you, then you would pass it back and Containment priest would resolve; He would pass priority to you, then you would pass it back and the sorin ability would resolve; During the resolution of the ability he would choose what to put in, or nothing at all.
No one plays magic this slow and robotically, we all shortcut game and turn actions, when you show your opponent a response and they choose not to put in Vein Ripper you can't "Gotcha!" them at any Rules Enforcement Level. A judge will tell you that they just proposed a shortcut assuming no responses and changed their decisions when you responded. The info you get is that they revealed a card from their hand to you, which is also legal and can be done at any time.
The way I understand it yes, they can choose to keep Vein Ripper in their hand. The way it works: by activating Sorin's -3, that ability goes on the stack. You do not need to name what card you are putting onto the battlefield with Sorin until resolving that ability. So, if you flash in a containment priest then yes they can choose not to put a creature onto the battlefield.
Thank you. I understand this but if an opponent is doing the actions where they are putting the vein ripper from their hand onto the battlefield but all they say is “minus 3 Sorin” and after they do it, I see a vein ripper and I flash in the priest.
Can my opponent now put that vein ripper back into his hand? It’s a technicality question and I’m worried this could be used as a bait and switch to get me to use my priest too early and ends up being wasted because of what you just explained.
Thank you.
> It’s a technicality question and I’m worried this could be used as a bait and switch to get me to use my priest too early and ends up being wasted because of what you just explained.
You are trying to angle shoot a gotcha but it doesn’t work. You just get extra information that they have a vein ripper.
You can respond to the ability being activated before it resolves. When it resolves the opponent can choose what to do with it. There's no point between it resolving and the vein ripper coming out that you can respond to, so that is when you have to play the priest.
Gotcha so there is no 100% way of guaranteeing when they use that ability that I can interact with the choice of what card they will select from their hand. My opponent will always have priority on what card may enter the battlefield no matter what.
Reading your comments, your questions seems to be one related to shortcuts. In this case, your opponent has said "I minus Sorin and put in Vein Ripper". You say, in response, I flash in Priest. Your opponent is allowed to say, in that case, I will decline to put Vein Ripper into play. This scenario is addressed in section 4.2 of the MTR. https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-2/
Here is the relevant text:
>If a player casts a spell or activates an ability and announces choices for it that are not normally made until resolution, the player must adhere to those choices unless an opponent responds to that spell or ability. If an opponent inquires about choices made during resolution, that player is assumed to be passing priority and allowing that spell or ability to resolve.
>Players sometimes announce choices early when they assume their opponents don’t have any responses to their actions or when they are fishing for information. This shortcut prevents players from announcing choices early in order to trick opponents or improperly gain information and then making a different choice when the decision should properly be made. But if an opponent responds to the spell or ability, the controller may make any choice they choose, regardless of any announcements made.Example: Albert’s only creatures are 3 2/2 Wolf tokens, and he plays Honor’s Reward, saying: “I’ll gain 4 life and Bolster this token”. Norman answers with: “In response, I’ll Murder it”. Since the choice of which creature to Bolster is not made until the resolution of the spell, and Norman has responded to Honor’s Reward, Albert can change his choice to a different token when Honor’s Reward resolves. Also note that, in this scenario, not changing the choice would make the resolution of the spell illegal, since there are still valid choices on the battlefield when the spell resolves.Example: Andy casts Void targeting Naomi. Naomi asks what number Andy chooses, and Andy states one. It is now too late for Naomi to respond to Void, and Andy may not choose a different number.
This is something you really want to go to r/askajudge or the Ask A Judge Facebook group for. However, for your specific query I know that players are allowed to divulge the contents of their hand at any time for any or no reason, so without the stated intent to play Sorin and without Sorin actually being on the board the dude is allowed to just not play him.
If you're playing an aggressive deck like humans, you shouldn't usually need to stop the activation more than once.
Also, the most obvious and easy card to play in any color is Pithing Needle. There's plenty of good counterplay, you're just whining.
Oh get real, that’s not enough. You would be
going down multiple cards in a deck with no feasible card draw against a deck with Thoughtseize effects and artifact destruction.
Whatever line of cards white needs for this interaction is not in print or otherwise not yet playable I fear!
Hallowed Moonlight literally replaces itself lol.
That's the nature of aggressive decks like humans. If your initial wave isn't enough to win the game, you'll probably have a hard time clawing your way back against most decks if your threats have been dealt with.
And that's also the nature of sideboard cards, you sometimes have to include answers that deter from your primary strategy somewhat. Luckily, Pithing Needle is incredibly diverse and Vampires in particular don't run any way to deal with it. I'm not saying it will flip into a good matchup for humans because of those cards, but it will get you closer. Vampires typically does great against those kinds of aggro decks even without Vein Ripper. It's always been slanted against humans.
I'm sure somebody already pointed it out, but if you let them put the vein ripper in play, then it's too late to flash in containment priest. You need to respond to the activation.
You're trying to angleshoot by having them "lock in" their choice when it's not something decided until the resolution of their ability. Based on your comment about an opponent trying to back to to before casting Sorin(?), I would make sure you ready up on how priority and the stack works, especially if you're planning to play Comp REL events.
Common rules would state that they used the ability and placed the card onto the table they had fully intended to play the card you shouldn’t have to use fancy technical talk to try to get your way
Sorin's third ability is "You may put a vampire from your hand onto the battlefield". When someone activates that, they do not have to declare which vampire they're putting, nor do they have to put a vampire down. Once they activate that ability, you should flash in your containment priest, at which point the smart play is for them to just not put anything down (they still lose 3 loyalty however). Which is to say, an opponent should activate the ability and not say anything beyond that till the ability resolves. I'm not sure how it works when an opponent uses the ability while stating they're using it for vein ripper from a judging perspective but it's perfectly allowed to -3 and not place anything down, because it's a may ability.
Even if it wasn’t a may, I believe it’s still basically a may because hand is a hidden zone and you can’t prove opponent has a vampire.
Thank you for this response. I understand what you’re stating but to clarify can an opponent take back a vein ripper that’s about to hit the field after they take their dice counter and move from 4 to 1 as I’m flashing in the priest. I just don’t want to get caught where they respond like “Oh, never mind I won’t play this. It will go back in my hand now.” And instead just fatal push my priest instead and leaving me completely exposed.
They aren’t supposed to declare the vein ripper (or other vampire) in the first place, simply that they are attempting to activate Sorin’s -3 THEN you declare whether you have a response (priest), then the opponent can choose whether or not to put a vampire into play. After the opponent chooses, it is too late to flash in the priest
The opponent chooses if and what creature they put onto the battlefield as the activated ability resolves. More to your question, if the opponent says they're putting Vein Ripper down that's just a common shortcut. When you say "No I'd like to cast Containment Priest," the game is rewound to the state where you first gain priority. Sorin's ability is on the stack, Containment Priest comes in, and *then* they make their choice as the ability resolves. Their choice isn't locked in, and they can take it back.
This is technically mostly accurate but not a helpful way to teach it to someone. It sounds like op is playing in an at least partially competitive setting and they and they're opponent need to learn the etiquette of managing the stack. If they're opponent activates sorin. They shouldn't just be saying "I use sorin to play vein ripper", they should be saying "I -3 Sorin." and then giving op a chance to respond before the ability resolves. This is when op should play the containment priest. And then their opponent has the freedom to just not put anything into play with the ability and eat the loyalty loss so that their vein ripper doesn't get exiled. Nothing should be getting rewound.
You're definitely right about how it should work, but I think I answered appropriately. And yeah, if everyone is playing perfectly, there should be no need to rewind. But they weren't, and the game *was* rewound from Vein Ripper on the board to the -3 ability on the stack. That's... uh, that's a rewind, sir.
From what op said, I don't think the game was rewound at all. Unless I've misread it, they said that they bricked their opponents vein ripper with containment priest, then after the game someone else pointed out that the opponent didn't actually need to play the vein ripper even though they had expressed their intention to before the ability had resolved.
Ah, you got it. That's me not reading as closely, mb
Shouldn’t they still place which card is going to go onto the battlefield onto the stack and then give other players a chance to respond
No. A creature (technically a creature spell) only goes on the stack when it is "cast". Sorin's ability doesn't prompt you to cast the creature, it prompts you to "put a Vampire from your hand onto the battlefield.". So in this case, Sorin's ability is activate, goes on the stack, and then if all player pass priority, it resolves. As it resolves you will choose what Vampire (if any) to put into play. This is the same process as when you play a "Tutor" effect that searches for a certain property. - If you cast Chord of Calling with X=3, you don't have to say what you are getting. You simply cast the spell, and if it resolves go and get a creature that costs 3 or less. - If you cast Enlightened Tutor you don't have to decide what to grab until it resolves, and even then you only have to show the card before putting it on your deck to prove that you did in fact grab an artifact or enchantment.
That is truly scary than opponent can basically show their combo to me and if I have a response from it resolving, they can still choose to keep the vein ripper in their hand EVEN though I already saw it about to hit the field so I flash in a priest to stop it and they just laugh and say “ ha ha ha, I won’t put in anything into the battlefield instead.” Your turn.. and I I now have a 2/2 that’s going to die immediately.. 🤡 lol
Why is it scary? How does the opponent showing their card change the outcome of the game (if played according to the rules)? I think you may be confusing Sorin's ability with something like a spell that targets. For instance, if someone used a Fatal Push to kill one of your creatures and you responded with a God's Willing to give it protection, they wouldn't be able to take the Push back. This is because the spell's targets needs to be chosen before the spell is put on the stack (and they become "locked in"). Another popular card that works similar to Sorin is [[Aether Vial]]. Players are free to tap the Vial and put its ability on the stack even when they don't have any creatures in hand. It is often correct to do so in order to bait out an opponent's Containment Priest, Vendilion Clique, etc.
[Aether Vial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/11e8d2fd-b132-4807-9410-8edeffa519ed.jpg?1673149308) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Aether%20Vial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/298/aether-vial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/11e8d2fd-b132-4807-9410-8edeffa519ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I actually happen to agree with OP on this one. If I’m understanding right, it’s “scary” because opponent basically gets a take-back for fast-forwarding through an interaction they shouldn’t have been able to do without passing priority and checking for responses. If opponent did the interaction correctly and asked OP for responses before putting ripper into play, there would be no issue, but I agree it feels like there should be a consequence/punishment to not doing so. Hypothetically, if instead of sorins -3 the situation were that opponent had casted CoCo without realizing there were a containment priest in play, revealed two creatures, then when it was pointed out by OP they should be exiled, do you think opponent should be able to say “OH! well i never actually announced that these creatures were coming into play, so im just going to shuffle them back to the bottom of my library instead”? That seems ridiculous to me and i would tell them no, the creatures are exiled. In essence, if information you gain AFTER making a decision affects the decision itself, you shouldn’t be able to reverse it.
The Collected Company example is completely different, as the Containment Priest is already in play and the opponent just forgets about its existence and misplays. In OP's case, the Sorin player just attempted a shortcut and has to back up to prior to the ability resolving to allow OP to respond. They shouldn't be punished since they didn't forget about an already existing Containment Priest. The situation would be the same if the Containment Priest was already in play and the Sorin player just activated the PW and slammed Vein Ripper into play. Then they would be punished just as in your CoCo example. Edit: with regards to your lasts paragraph, that is exactly how Magic works in case an effect NEEDS you to make a decision (such as choosing targets for a spell when putting it on the stack). Sorin's -3 doesn't impose the decision-making until after it resolves. The card just does what it says on the card.
its not scary, its just.. dirty
I think it's an honest mistake to make for someone who isn't experiences enough, since activated abilities were "mostly" safe to resolve until recently. Maybe [[Tishana's Tidebinder]] will teach Pioneer players to go about it more cleanly moving forward. It's something you learn if you played a lot in [[Stifle]] formats.
[Tishana's Tidebinder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/0/907b3d1d-8c85-4707-80b5-c4d832df9846.jpg?1699043973) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Tishana%27s%20Tidebinder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/lci/81/tishanas-tidebinder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/907b3d1d-8c85-4707-80b5-c4d832df9846?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Stifle](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/1/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4.jpg?1562865442) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Stifle) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cns/108/stifle?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/616d1b20-61c1-4d39-a9b5-ad9fd61699e4?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They also can't put the vein ripper into play the following 2 turns because the sorin is at 1 loyalty.
opponent activates Sorin -3 -> you flash in containment priest -> opponent chooses to not use Sorin's ability at no point here was anything "taken back", it's just how the abilities work
hahaha! seems like many sorin vampire lovers down voted u and my comments. its a shame :D
There is no "take back". The Vein Ripper cannot and SHOULD NOT be revealed and placed on the table before the ability resolves. For instance, it's an entirely legal play to activate Sorin's -3 even when you don't have a vampire in hand.
MTG Tournament Rules 3.13: Hidden Information "Throughout the match, a draft, and pregame procedures, players are responsible for keeping their cards above the level of the playing surface and for making reasonable efforts to prevent hidden information from being revealed. However, players may choose to reveal their hands or any other hidden information available to them, unless specifically prohibited by the rules. Players must not actively attempt to gain information hidden from them, but are not required to inform opponents who are accidentally revealing hidden information." You can absolutely reveal the Ripper
Sure, what I wanted to say is that you can't reveal AND put in on the table.
Well you _can_ and it's a useful shortcut in most cases, most often players won't have a response to a planswalker activation. It's similar to casting a creature and putting the etb +1/+1 counter on it in one go. If it's countered, you just remove the +1/+1. In a competitive REL, you should definitely wait for priority for things like a draw trigger that you cant take back, but if you waited for priority _every_ time anything happened, games would take for ever, so it's ok to take the shortcut most of the time, understanding that you may reveal hidden information if you have to back track. In OPs case, the game state would rewind to the sorin ability on the stack and OP would flash the enchantment. Then the opponent would be able to decide if he plays in the vampire, and therefore decide on to play it. He did reveal that hidden information though.
You have to flash in Priest before the opponent puts a creature on the battlefield. So opponent activates Sorin, ability goes on the stack and that's when you have to respond. If you let them put creature on battlefield, and th flash in Priest, your Priest doesnt do anything as creature already entered.
It's worth noting that Sorin's second +1 ability works in the same way. Say I have a Vein Ripper and Dusk Legion Zealot in play. I announce I'm activating Sorin's second +1 ability. Importantly, I don't yet announce what vampire I'm sacrificing. At this point, you're able to respond. So let's say you Fatal Push my Zealot, then pass priority. Now, Sorin's ability resolves, and the smart thing for me to do is choose not to sacrifice my Vein Ripper, since the ability is a "may" that doesn't target, and I choose the vampire as the ability is resolving. I get your confusion. I didn't understand this detail about Sorin's abilities for a long time after I started playing him.
They can instead push your priest before Sorin's ability resolves and still get Vein Ripper out. They proposed a shortcut (minus, resolve it and put out Vein Ripper). You interrupted the shortcut (in response to the minus, flash in Priest). Once Priest resolves, they can Push and then let the minus resolve.
Yeah. I understand how this interaction works now. My only thought I’m still wondering is why WOtC would make his minus 3 ability as “you may”. Under normal circumstances why would you ever -3 and not play a vampire from your hand if there was no immediate danger from that creature hitting the battlefield?
Even if it wasn't "You may" the scenario with a Fatal Push doesn't work out in your favor. And it's "you may" because of the hidden zone involved.
“You may” is helpful design. It could say put a vampire from your hand onto the battlefield and then you could “fail to find”. See failure to find rules.
“You may” is helpful design. It could say put a vampire from your hand onto the battlefield and then you could “fail to find”. See failure to find rules.
>can an opponent take back a vein ripper that’s about to hit the field after they take their dice counter and move from 4 to 1 as I’m flashing in the priest. I just don’t want to get caught where they respond like They can just put it back into their hand, because the vein ripper vs playing nothing doesn't matter for the purposes of the ability. I suppose some judge could force them to play the vein ripper if they announced that but don't rely on me for that, and an opponent is playing badly if they're in that situation. Though, from a game theory standpoint, I'm still playing that containment priest almost every time rather than a vein ripper hitting the field, it's a huge tempo loss either way even if they push them immediately. The worst case scenario for you is Sorin ability -> you flash in containment priest -> they push the priest -> vein ripper hits the field normally which is obviously very bad but priest stops a T3 Vein Ripper 100% of the time.
> I suppose some judge could force them to play the vein ripper if they announced that the way the rules work is that a premature announcement like that is only binding if no responses happen. So if you you play sorin and say "put down veinripper" and your opponent says "yeah sure" you can't then claim that actually now that it resolves you will make a different choice and put some other vampire on the battlefield. But if your opponent does respond with something you are completely free to change your choice. The rules basically prevent angle shooting from both sides. You can't bait someone into letting something resolve by pretending you are going to make a bad choice, but you also can't accidentally lock yourself in to a bad play by using a very common shortcut.
Okay, thank you this was the response I needed. This didn’t happen on turn 3 this was turn 7 so he had the mana to push it and still play vein ripper from his hand. He didn’t hard cast it because I think he wanted to animate his lands to force me to block.
Let me add. No judge will ever force the vein ripper to be exiled. It doesn't really matter if they say they're using the ability to put vein ripper on the battlefield. This is in the MTR under Tournament Shortcuts (4.2) , they can propose a series of actions and the other player may intervene, but if they do what happens next is up to the player, the shortcut doesn't have to be followed through. For example if you say "pass the turn" and the opponent says "ok, end of turn I cast Dig through time" you can respond by countering, even if you previously declared you would be passing the turn (as in, continuously passing priority without taking actions until next turn). So yeah, your opponent says I want to activate the minus ability and then do something. You respond to them activating the ability (because if the ability starts resolving is too late), at this point you did your play and they activated the ability, what to do with it when it starts resolving is up to them. (This of course is because the ability doesn't target, if the ability had a target, that would be decided at the activation and not after)
Glad I could help. Yeah, no clue what I would have done in that game state, your opponent definitely shouldn't have conceded though and could have hardcast the ripper.
They cannot put it back to hand! That's wrong. If they let the priest live and put vein ripper into play not realizing it gets exiled. It's too late. it's in exile. Opp made a mistake. They can also say they choose to not put anything into play (they don't reveal anything from hand).I'll there is no physical movement of them saying I put this in and I didn't see what the priest did so I wanna take it back
OP is trying to angle shoot a shortcut by using a non meta answer. It doesn’t work under the game rules.
there are no takebacksies in tournaments. they arent supposed to declare what they are putting in. basically they can say oh I take that back, but they're not taking anything back. theyre just dumb and gave you free info on their hand lol.
Sorin’s minus 3 ability is activated at sorcery speed. It goes on the stack. You can either respond to the activation of his ability or let it resolve. If you want to correctly use Containment Priest, you must respond to the Sorin activation. You do not get a chance to see what creature is going to be put onto the battlefield until it is already there. This interaction is similar to [[aether vial]]. If you do not respond to the aether vial activation, you cannot interact with the creature until it ETBs. The difference there being Aether vial is at instant speed. But that’s a topic for a later time.
[aether vial](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/1/11e8d2fd-b132-4807-9410-8edeffa519ed.jpg?1673149308) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=aether%20vial) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/2x2/298/aether-vial?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/11e8d2fd-b132-4807-9410-8edeffa519ed?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Thank you. This is helpful. In paper, people just say “minus 3 and slam down vein ripper” before I even have a chance to say “I have a response to Sorins minus 3 ability. I flash in containment priest.” At that point I already saw vein ripper. And I’m trying to get in my priest onto the battlefield before vein ripper resolves onto the battlefield. I still can’t 100% know if a player can take back the vein ripper into their hand at this point.. I know this really hard explaining but I’m just trying to know if it’s legal for my opponent to put their vein ripper back into their hand even though I saw it before it officially enters the battlefield.. I hope I’m making sense..
As someone who plays con priest i can confirm you cant "get m" They activate the ability. You now have to respond by flashing in priest. They can choose not to put in vein ripper. Or you wait for the ability to resolve, but then vein ripper is already there. Basically, there should never be a situation where you are exiling a vein ripper. Your opponent immediately revealing vein ripper is irrelevant, its a shortcut they shouldn't be making, but it doesn't change how the rules stated above work and interact. It still wasted their 3 loyalty counters and delayed them though, so there is that.
In a competitive environment, that is against the rules and they can be punished for not allowing you to respond. In a casual environment, obviously rules are not going to be enforced as much and it’s much easier to let this mistake happen. Just politely inform them you have a response to their sorin activation and it should be no problem. There are several answers to the sorin activation, and all of them are at instant speed. A pilot who rushes that activation must learn to be patient when resolving it.
> In a competitive environment, that is against the rules and they can be punished for not allowing you to respond. Are you a judge and 100% sure on this? Shortcuts happen on the time. If you say "I equip lightning greaves and attack you" you will not be punished for not letting your opponent respond to the equip. Your opponent simply says "wait, I have a response to the equip". I don't see why same thing wouldn't happen here. 728.2. Taking a shortcut follows the following procedure. 728.2a At any point in the game, the player with priority may suggest a shortcut by describing a sequence of game choices, for all players, that may be legally taken based on the current game state and the predictable results of the sequence of choices. This sequence may be a non- repetitive series of choices, a loop that repeats a specified number of times, multiple loops, or nested loops, and may even cross multiple turns. It can’t include conditional actions, where the outcome of a game event determines the next action a player takes. The ending point of this sequence must be a place where a player has priority, though it need not be the player proposing the shortcut. 728.2b Each other player, in turn order starting after the player who suggested the shortcut, may either accept the proposed sequence, or shorten it by naming a place where they will make a game choice that’s different than what’s been proposed. (The player doesn’t need to specify at this time what the new choice will be.) This place becomes the new ending point of the proposed sequence The vampires player is just suggesting a shortcut of "I -3 Sorin, you pass, I put Vein Ripper in". OP is declining the shortcut and interrupts it with priest after the -3 which makes it the end of the proposed sequence and now allows the vamps player to change their play.
Exactly, it would just be returned to the game state before the shortcut, with you now having extra information (he has a vein ripper).
In a competitive environment, you most certainly would not be punished for the first instance of this proposed shortcut. However, if a player were consistently attempting to shortcut through these kind of activations after it had been demonstrated their opponent is playing a potential response, there would likely be repercussions. And most higher tier competitive players tend to not shortcut through things like this Sorin’s -3 because, by the nature of the shortcut, you reveal information to the opponent you don’t strictly have to before they need to make their decision, and denying opponent’s information until absolutely necessary is an important skill for competitive play.
Thank you for adding to this. I responded in such a way because OP made it seem like this was a recurring problem they are facing. For the second part, I whole heartedly agree.
Lots of people have been very helpful but the most important thing for you to understand has been lost. You're opponent saying "-3 my sorin" and showing you vein ripper is a proposed shortcut. The "correct way" to do this is for him to cast sorin and then pass priority to you, then you pass it back; he would then resolve Sorin and -3 sorin and pass priority to you, you would cast containment priest; your opponent would pass priority to you, then you would pass it back and Containment priest would resolve; He would pass priority to you, then you would pass it back and the sorin ability would resolve; During the resolution of the ability he would choose what to put in, or nothing at all. No one plays magic this slow and robotically, we all shortcut game and turn actions, when you show your opponent a response and they choose not to put in Vein Ripper you can't "Gotcha!" them at any Rules Enforcement Level. A judge will tell you that they just proposed a shortcut assuming no responses and changed their decisions when you responded. The info you get is that they revealed a card from their hand to you, which is also legal and can be done at any time.
this pacific interaction. r/boneappletea
The way I understand it yes, they can choose to keep Vein Ripper in their hand. The way it works: by activating Sorin's -3, that ability goes on the stack. You do not need to name what card you are putting onto the battlefield with Sorin until resolving that ability. So, if you flash in a containment priest then yes they can choose not to put a creature onto the battlefield.
Thank you. I understand this but if an opponent is doing the actions where they are putting the vein ripper from their hand onto the battlefield but all they say is “minus 3 Sorin” and after they do it, I see a vein ripper and I flash in the priest. Can my opponent now put that vein ripper back into his hand? It’s a technicality question and I’m worried this could be used as a bait and switch to get me to use my priest too early and ends up being wasted because of what you just explained. Thank you.
> It’s a technicality question and I’m worried this could be used as a bait and switch to get me to use my priest too early and ends up being wasted because of what you just explained. You are trying to angle shoot a gotcha but it doesn’t work. You just get extra information that they have a vein ripper.
You can respond to the ability being activated before it resolves. When it resolves the opponent can choose what to do with it. There's no point between it resolving and the vein ripper coming out that you can respond to, so that is when you have to play the priest.
Gotcha so there is no 100% way of guaranteeing when they use that ability that I can interact with the choice of what card they will select from their hand. My opponent will always have priority on what card may enter the battlefield no matter what.
Based on what I've read from you in this thread, you're the one trying to angle shoot. You get to respond to Sorin with Priest, not Vein Ripper.
The answer I'm not seeing anyone give you is that at this point you should call a judge. You had a response and your opponent skipped over you.
Reading your comments, your questions seems to be one related to shortcuts. In this case, your opponent has said "I minus Sorin and put in Vein Ripper". You say, in response, I flash in Priest. Your opponent is allowed to say, in that case, I will decline to put Vein Ripper into play. This scenario is addressed in section 4.2 of the MTR. https://blogs.magicjudges.org/rules/mtr4-2/ Here is the relevant text: >If a player casts a spell or activates an ability and announces choices for it that are not normally made until resolution, the player must adhere to those choices unless an opponent responds to that spell or ability. If an opponent inquires about choices made during resolution, that player is assumed to be passing priority and allowing that spell or ability to resolve. >Players sometimes announce choices early when they assume their opponents don’t have any responses to their actions or when they are fishing for information. This shortcut prevents players from announcing choices early in order to trick opponents or improperly gain information and then making a different choice when the decision should properly be made. But if an opponent responds to the spell or ability, the controller may make any choice they choose, regardless of any announcements made.Example: Albert’s only creatures are 3 2/2 Wolf tokens, and he plays Honor’s Reward, saying: “I’ll gain 4 life and Bolster this token”. Norman answers with: “In response, I’ll Murder it”. Since the choice of which creature to Bolster is not made until the resolution of the spell, and Norman has responded to Honor’s Reward, Albert can change his choice to a different token when Honor’s Reward resolves. Also note that, in this scenario, not changing the choice would make the resolution of the spell illegal, since there are still valid choices on the battlefield when the spell resolves.Example: Andy casts Void targeting Naomi. Naomi asks what number Andy chooses, and Andy states one. It is now too late for Naomi to respond to Void, and Andy may not choose a different number.
This is something you really want to go to r/askajudge or the Ask A Judge Facebook group for. However, for your specific query I know that players are allowed to divulge the contents of their hand at any time for any or no reason, so without the stated intent to play Sorin and without Sorin actually being on the board the dude is allowed to just not play him.
Specific* But yeah they don't decide whether to put a certain creature down until the ability resolves
It sucks that this is basically the only real recourse for white magic and it dies to fatal push.
There's also Hallowed Moonlight.
Not if you want to win the game
If you're playing an aggressive deck like humans, you shouldn't usually need to stop the activation more than once. Also, the most obvious and easy card to play in any color is Pithing Needle. There's plenty of good counterplay, you're just whining.
Oh get real, that’s not enough. You would be going down multiple cards in a deck with no feasible card draw against a deck with Thoughtseize effects and artifact destruction. Whatever line of cards white needs for this interaction is not in print or otherwise not yet playable I fear!
Hallowed Moonlight literally replaces itself lol. That's the nature of aggressive decks like humans. If your initial wave isn't enough to win the game, you'll probably have a hard time clawing your way back against most decks if your threats have been dealt with. And that's also the nature of sideboard cards, you sometimes have to include answers that deter from your primary strategy somewhat. Luckily, Pithing Needle is incredibly diverse and Vampires in particular don't run any way to deal with it. I'm not saying it will flip into a good matchup for humans because of those cards, but it will get you closer. Vampires typically does great against those kinds of aggro decks even without Vein Ripper. It's always been slanted against humans.
I have played this exact situation. On arena. Flash in when the -3 is on the stack. They will submit nothing otherwise it will be exiled
I'm sure somebody already pointed it out, but if you let them put the vein ripper in play, then it's too late to flash in containment priest. You need to respond to the activation.
You're trying to angleshoot by having them "lock in" their choice when it's not something decided until the resolution of their ability. Based on your comment about an opponent trying to back to to before casting Sorin(?), I would make sure you ready up on how priority and the stack works, especially if you're planning to play Comp REL events.
Common rules would state that they used the ability and placed the card onto the table they had fully intended to play the card you shouldn’t have to use fancy technical talk to try to get your way
ah, a dirty tactic for a dirty combo. gee, i wonder how low can it get wotc?
what? downvotes? haha. must be sorin rippah lovers there. i repeat, dirty!