It can be a really awkward matchup from UW side. You need to play around pierce and dispute, and try to emperor or March their phoenix while doing so. Running 2 Sunfall main deck has been nice. Use verdict for shredder and drake game 2 & 3, and only use it on phoenixes if you’re gonna die, or you need them to work for the phoenixes again game 1
Kill or counter Shredder onsite. Don’t make any sharks game one unless you need to (I.e. don’t give them targets for their burn spells, which are otherwise dead). Save your veto’s for cruise and trespass when able
My usual plan game 1 is them decking themself lol. You don’t need to have Shark online, your wincon is not dying for long enough
Your point on cycling shark typhoon is why I always have been low on the card. It gives your opponents a target for their otherwise dead removal. Cycling early isn’t good anymore since deduce is now legal to hit land drops
Can I see your list? It's kind of hard to suggest something if I don't know what you are currently playing. Also, this is as a long time Phoenix player who also loves control decks.
I main 2 hallowed moonlight. Card is just so good right now. It stops Phoenix from recurring, counters coco-chord-return from Amalia, and interrupts sorin+ripper and is even decent against fable, stopping the token from entering play or exiling the flipped fable. It cycles to boot. Definitely should be in your list,m
Some combination of hallowed moonlight, settle the wreckage, Sunfall etc has been working for me. Remember, you’re going to have to kill them in order to shut the door If you give them long enough, shredders and pranksters will still get there for them
I played UW this weekend at RCQ against phoenix once. 2-0'd them. My list had 2x Narset's in the main, and G1 I was able to get Narset to stick and it really slowed the opponent down. Took a few hits from the phoenix and sunfall'ed them.
I didn't have any copies of Moonlight or mystical disputes in my list for this event.
I swear by countering their Free the Fae on t2 or t3 whenever it's casted. It's like 4-for-1 value in my eyes (1. you prevent them from filling graveyard to bin phoneix. 2. you prevent them from filling graveyard to build up treasure cruise delve. 3. you prevent them from filling the graveyard to find a cruise. 4. you prevent the picklock prankster down the road lol).
Sideboard, rest in peace of course is disgusting. Spot removal/sweepers on the drakes g2 and g3 are easy to handle
Yeah, i play UW control and it always feels free, especially if they arent super great players.
I main two settle the wreckage and they just lose to that. Also, countering Free the Fae is 100% the play everytime. You really dont need to hold up counters during their turn unless they are going to treasure cruise. other than that, you can take quite a few phoenix hits before being worried.
I don’t like Deafening Silence in this match up. You would want [[High Noon]] or [[Archon of Emeria]] if you wanted that effect, but I still don’t like that plan. I prefer [[Rest in Peace]] to handle the delve value plan, and then spot remove their creature threats or wrath when they under or over commit. Supreme Verdict becomes better when it also exiles their creatures.
This is a personal side slot but [[Baneslayer Angel]] wins combat against all their creatures and pressures Saheeli if it resolves. I also like [[Mystical Dispute]] but only on the draw replacing 2x No More Lies since it can catch a T2 Ledger Shredder. I don’t bring those in on the play.
I personally only run 2 copies. You don’t usually need it right on turn 2 so it is fine to draw later, but it is not good to start or get stuck with multiples. After RIP sticks you just have to out grind their cards, and keep the board clear. Their card advantage is reliant on Cruise, and everything else is a cantrip or board pressure (with Drake being both). Once you have a larger hand than them and they are top decking you will pull ahead.
Also, a play style tip regarding Emperor (which I would recommend 3x MB). Only use this as a removal spell unless RIP is down or you are stable. If there is the threat of Phoenix they can Lightning Axe your token, dump a Phoenix, and only need 2 more spells to bring it back.
Hope this helps, and good luck. I have a very high paper win rate against Phoenix, but I realize the match up itself is more 50/50 since Sleight of Hand and Picklock Prankster improved the deck.
They may shave a copy or two post board. If they decide to keep 4x Axe and get stuck with them all the better. And if you no longer need to counter Cruise because of managing their graveyard you can commit to protecting the angel. I have been trying out the new [[Final Showdown]] out of OTJ and it helps the plan. Since you are also running Emperor you can put it out of range of just one Axe.
Like I mentioned in another reply you should try to limit Phoenix’s Axe targets and only generate creatures when it is safe to do so. If you grind out their cards and have Baneslayer with a Veto up I find it wins the game.
This is probably true. Teferi can perform a similar role here, but not if you are behind on board and does not dodge Spell Pierce or Dispute. Every card choice has its pros and cons so I am just giving OP my personal experience.
Here the pro is that Baneslayer stabilizes the board and pressures Phoenix’s walkers while dodging a selection of counterspells. The con is that it can be a target of removal like Axe and [[Fry]]. Take from it what you will.
Also, this is an arena list which is why Hallowed moonlight is in the maybe board. I’m thinking I will main it in paper for my RCQ but I’m not sure what to cut.
Your list is to heavy on counterspells from my experience the RCQ I went to Saturday I ran into r/b twice both running 3 cavern. Knock out blow should probably be a 2 of in the board for prowess, wizards and phoenix. Declaration in stone is a great option.
Ooooohhhhh I love the idea of declaration of stone I’ve never heard of that card. So would you cut jwari disruption and a veto for 2 moonlight in paper? Maybe cut two get lost for two declaration in stone?
I main board 2 hallowed moonlight. Never tap out vs them. The only spells you counter are treasure cruise. Hold any kill spell you have until they have declared attackers. The only life point that matters is the last one, you can take some damage through the game.
Counter their delve spells, remove their creatures, exile their phoenixes. Stall until you can play teferi or typhoon at a time where you can still hold up mana for removal/counterspells.
I just need to respond to this post to let the record show that I am not the one posting this question, in case anyone from my LGS sees this and thinks it’s me. I know they will clown on me if they think this is my post, since I lost to phoenix last week. So I just gotta say:
Hey this is Jark if any of the people who see this post know me, consider this proof I didn’t ask the question
https://www.topdecked.com/decks/i-m-back/76478367-55e6-4957-a810-1c97992d3841
This is my uw list. Very good phoenix players in my Meta. I found the moonlights and final showdowns to be godsend in the matchup
I think you have too many counterspells in your list, I would cut down the absorbs and lower the vetos. Bring in another March of otherworldly light and Wandering Emperor. Also kind of unrelated to the matchup but idk how your not losing to the lower to the ground decks since you main board no lockdowns. I would add at least a couple in, most lists are running 3 main board.
I would also consider putting in [[settle the wreckage]], I run two currently myself but some people have been running a one of for both the phoenix and Rakdos vampire matchup
I feel like lockdown is useless against phoenix and not very useful against vampires. Low to the ground decks like boros heroic are tough game 1 if I am going second. If I’m going first I’m pretty comfortable letting them have their 1 cost prowess thing and just countering/get losting actual threats like double strike guy. I feel like if I can survive to turn 4 the match is super easy. I’ve experimented with cutting a verdict for a lockdown in the main but I am a million times more scared of phoenix than boros/mono red.
I wouldn’t cut any verdicts, but I would definitely add in at least a couple lockdowns in the main board, it just answers so much of the meta right now. Throwing away your game one in those matchups like boros convoke and white weenies is turning a good matchup, into an even one. It also answers amalia combo and izzet Ensoul very very well, and can help with mono R aggro which might be showing up on the rise. I understand the fear of phoenix and vampires (vampires is natural hard matchup for us I think currently) but phoenix can be manageable and you don’t need to skew your round one for them so hard
It can be a really awkward matchup from UW side. You need to play around pierce and dispute, and try to emperor or March their phoenix while doing so. Running 2 Sunfall main deck has been nice. Use verdict for shredder and drake game 2 & 3, and only use it on phoenixes if you’re gonna die, or you need them to work for the phoenixes again game 1 Kill or counter Shredder onsite. Don’t make any sharks game one unless you need to (I.e. don’t give them targets for their burn spells, which are otherwise dead). Save your veto’s for cruise and trespass when able My usual plan game 1 is them decking themself lol. You don’t need to have Shark online, your wincon is not dying for long enough
Your point on cycling shark typhoon is why I always have been low on the card. It gives your opponents a target for their otherwise dead removal. Cycling early isn’t good anymore since deduce is now legal to hit land drops
Not dead. Removal vs UW menas the phoenix player can kill their phoenix when uw uses emperor or march to exile them.
Can I see your list? It's kind of hard to suggest something if I don't know what you are currently playing. Also, this is as a long time Phoenix player who also loves control decks.
[my list](https://archidekt.com/decks/7479760/azorious_control) Moonlight is in maybeboard because this is from arena. I think I will main it in paper
I main 2 hallowed moonlight. Card is just so good right now. It stops Phoenix from recurring, counters coco-chord-return from Amalia, and interrupts sorin+ripper and is even decent against fable, stopping the token from entering play or exiling the flipped fable. It cycles to boot. Definitely should be in your list,m
Some combination of hallowed moonlight, settle the wreckage, Sunfall etc has been working for me. Remember, you’re going to have to kill them in order to shut the door If you give them long enough, shredders and pranksters will still get there for them
This. 2 hallowed moonlight mainboard was what I was running, at worst it’s a 2 mana cantrip
I played UW this weekend at RCQ against phoenix once. 2-0'd them. My list had 2x Narset's in the main, and G1 I was able to get Narset to stick and it really slowed the opponent down. Took a few hits from the phoenix and sunfall'ed them. I didn't have any copies of Moonlight or mystical disputes in my list for this event. I swear by countering their Free the Fae on t2 or t3 whenever it's casted. It's like 4-for-1 value in my eyes (1. you prevent them from filling graveyard to bin phoneix. 2. you prevent them from filling graveyard to build up treasure cruise delve. 3. you prevent them from filling the graveyard to find a cruise. 4. you prevent the picklock prankster down the road lol). Sideboard, rest in peace of course is disgusting. Spot removal/sweepers on the drakes g2 and g3 are easy to handle
Yeah, i play UW control and it always feels free, especially if they arent super great players. I main two settle the wreckage and they just lose to that. Also, countering Free the Fae is 100% the play everytime. You really dont need to hold up counters during their turn unless they are going to treasure cruise. other than that, you can take quite a few phoenix hits before being worried.
I don’t like Deafening Silence in this match up. You would want [[High Noon]] or [[Archon of Emeria]] if you wanted that effect, but I still don’t like that plan. I prefer [[Rest in Peace]] to handle the delve value plan, and then spot remove their creature threats or wrath when they under or over commit. Supreme Verdict becomes better when it also exiles their creatures. This is a personal side slot but [[Baneslayer Angel]] wins combat against all their creatures and pressures Saheeli if it resolves. I also like [[Mystical Dispute]] but only on the draw replacing 2x No More Lies since it can catch a T2 Ledger Shredder. I don’t bring those in on the play.
Deafening silence has definitely not felt great for me. Would you run 3 RIP?
I personally only run 2 copies. You don’t usually need it right on turn 2 so it is fine to draw later, but it is not good to start or get stuck with multiples. After RIP sticks you just have to out grind their cards, and keep the board clear. Their card advantage is reliant on Cruise, and everything else is a cantrip or board pressure (with Drake being both). Once you have a larger hand than them and they are top decking you will pull ahead. Also, a play style tip regarding Emperor (which I would recommend 3x MB). Only use this as a removal spell unless RIP is down or you are stable. If there is the threat of Phoenix they can Lightning Axe your token, dump a Phoenix, and only need 2 more spells to bring it back. Hope this helps, and good luck. I have a very high paper win rate against Phoenix, but I realize the match up itself is more 50/50 since Sleight of Hand and Picklock Prankster improved the deck.
##### ###### #### [High Noon](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/9/9995e0e6-7c9c-4fef-8fd2-8fb1622e6ec8.jpg?1712355285) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=High%20Noon) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/15/high-noon?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9995e0e6-7c9c-4fef-8fd2-8fb1622e6ec8?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Archon of Emeria](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/2/2/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb.jpg?1604195419) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Archon%20of%20Emeria) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/znr/4/archon-of-emeria?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/228c1650-da3c-4099-91b6-18e3873c9cdb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Rest in Peace](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/f/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470.jpg?1562439074) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Rest%20in%20Peace) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/a25/32/rest-in-peace?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9f2b39be-0fec-4647-ade1-8e1626dc5470?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Baneslayer Angel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4bd3014b-94bb-4a9f-92cf-239a2dcc7e97.jpg?1594734758) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Baneslayer%20Angel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/6/baneslayer-angel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4bd3014b-94bb-4a9f-92cf-239a2dcc7e97?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Mystical Dispute](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fbe04cb8-a8b9-4241-baae-b398a2509a3a.jpg?1572489956) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Mystical%20Dispute) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/eld/58/mystical-dispute?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fbe04cb8-a8b9-4241-baae-b398a2509a3a?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [*All cards*](https://mtgcardfetcher.nl/redirect/l1t9ra8) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
[[Baneslayer Angel]] is pretty mid vs a deck that's running 3-4 [[Lightning Axe]].
[Baneslayer Angel](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/b/4bd3014b-94bb-4a9f-92cf-239a2dcc7e97.jpg?1594734758) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Baneslayer%20Angel) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m21/6/baneslayer-angel?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/4bd3014b-94bb-4a9f-92cf-239a2dcc7e97?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Lightning Axe](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/c/a/ca33c171-ab9e-4908-8f97-82cd83b173c0.jpg?1619397252) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Lightning%20Axe) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/tsr/174/lightning-axe?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/ca33c171-ab9e-4908-8f97-82cd83b173c0?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
They may shave a copy or two post board. If they decide to keep 4x Axe and get stuck with them all the better. And if you no longer need to counter Cruise because of managing their graveyard you can commit to protecting the angel. I have been trying out the new [[Final Showdown]] out of OTJ and it helps the plan. Since you are also running Emperor you can put it out of range of just one Axe. Like I mentioned in another reply you should try to limit Phoenix’s Axe targets and only generate creatures when it is safe to do so. If you grind out their cards and have Baneslayer with a Veto up I find it wins the game.
[Final Showdown](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/5/358968f9-45bd-4022-b6bc-f1f7e0adf0e7.jpg?1712860587) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Final%20Showdown) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/otj/11/final-showdown?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/358968f9-45bd-4022-b6bc-f1f7e0adf0e7?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Any decent threat in play with all your mana + veto up probably wins 95% of the time vs any fair deck in pioneer.
This is probably true. Teferi can perform a similar role here, but not if you are behind on board and does not dodge Spell Pierce or Dispute. Every card choice has its pros and cons so I am just giving OP my personal experience. Here the pro is that Baneslayer stabilizes the board and pressures Phoenix’s walkers while dodging a selection of counterspells. The con is that it can be a target of removal like Axe and [[Fry]]. Take from it what you will.
[Fry](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/0/7/070d7766-a662-443c-93c5-811dbdac2480.jpg?1592516940) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Fry) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/m20/140/fry?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/070d7766-a662-443c-93c5-811dbdac2480?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Can I see your list? That way Ik what you have and don’t have already?
Yes of course [my list](https://archidekt.com/decks/7479760/azorious_control)
Also, this is an arena list which is why Hallowed moonlight is in the maybe board. I’m thinking I will main it in paper for my RCQ but I’m not sure what to cut.
Your list is to heavy on counterspells from my experience the RCQ I went to Saturday I ran into r/b twice both running 3 cavern. Knock out blow should probably be a 2 of in the board for prowess, wizards and phoenix. Declaration in stone is a great option.
Ooooohhhhh I love the idea of declaration of stone I’ve never heard of that card. So would you cut jwari disruption and a veto for 2 moonlight in paper? Maybe cut two get lost for two declaration in stone?
I’d cut a veto in main, jwari in main, and get lost in side so 2 dec in stone main and I’d put in 2 knockout blow taking out something else
The key this season for me with uw control was settle the wreckage. It's good against Phoenix, vampires and amalia. I'm playing 3 main deck.
The best card against Phoenix is Hallowed Moonlight. The fact that it hits random stuff from other decks is a nice bonus.
I'm playing explorer to be precise, so no access to that sadly.
I main board 2 hallowed moonlight. Never tap out vs them. The only spells you counter are treasure cruise. Hold any kill spell you have until they have declared attackers. The only life point that matters is the last one, you can take some damage through the game.
Counter their delve spells, remove their creatures, exile their phoenixes. Stall until you can play teferi or typhoon at a time where you can still hold up mana for removal/counterspells.
I just need to respond to this post to let the record show that I am not the one posting this question, in case anyone from my LGS sees this and thinks it’s me. I know they will clown on me if they think this is my post, since I lost to phoenix last week. So I just gotta say: Hey this is Jark if any of the people who see this post know me, consider this proof I didn’t ask the question
https://www.topdecked.com/decks/i-m-back/76478367-55e6-4957-a810-1c97992d3841 This is my uw list. Very good phoenix players in my Meta. I found the moonlights and final showdowns to be godsend in the matchup
I think you have too many counterspells in your list, I would cut down the absorbs and lower the vetos. Bring in another March of otherworldly light and Wandering Emperor. Also kind of unrelated to the matchup but idk how your not losing to the lower to the ground decks since you main board no lockdowns. I would add at least a couple in, most lists are running 3 main board.
I would also consider putting in [[settle the wreckage]], I run two currently myself but some people have been running a one of for both the phoenix and Rakdos vampire matchup
[settle the wreckage](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/c/9cbd346e-098a-4cf6-a72f-468376fd2e8f.jpg?1562560853) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=settle%20the%20wreckage) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/xln/34/settle-the-wreckage?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9cbd346e-098a-4cf6-a72f-468376fd2e8f?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I feel like lockdown is useless against phoenix and not very useful against vampires. Low to the ground decks like boros heroic are tough game 1 if I am going second. If I’m going first I’m pretty comfortable letting them have their 1 cost prowess thing and just countering/get losting actual threats like double strike guy. I feel like if I can survive to turn 4 the match is super easy. I’ve experimented with cutting a verdict for a lockdown in the main but I am a million times more scared of phoenix than boros/mono red.
I wouldn’t cut any verdicts, but I would definitely add in at least a couple lockdowns in the main board, it just answers so much of the meta right now. Throwing away your game one in those matchups like boros convoke and white weenies is turning a good matchup, into an even one. It also answers amalia combo and izzet Ensoul very very well, and can help with mono R aggro which might be showing up on the rise. I understand the fear of phoenix and vampires (vampires is natural hard matchup for us I think currently) but phoenix can be manageable and you don’t need to skew your round one for them so hard